# Pre Fill or Not



## pigrock

When is pre filling a waist of time ?


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## Tim0282

When the gap in the rock is less than 1/8th of an inch. And that may even depend on the situation.


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## mudslingr

If the gap or hole is buried behind something like a cabinet. Otherwise never a waste of time in my opinion.


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## Tim0282

pigrock said:


> When is pre filling a waist of time ?


I really hope you meant *waste* of time and not *waist* of time.  
I like pre filling my waist every day!


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## JohnnyMudd

These days we are pre - filling all our joints along with the butts. We also fill in the recess at the top plate before taping angles.


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## Jason

Of course you prefill damage and crappy/gappy hanging that the mud bed on whatever system you're using won't handle. How is this even a question?

Hotmud.


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## 800PoundGuerrilla

*Prep and Prefill*

Waste is activities and behaviors that add cost but do not add value. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


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## 1drywaller

I've always prefilled with hotmud, I didn't think it was an option.


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## Cratter

Prefill is totally optional. Just use an All Purpose mud to tape not a lightweight AP.

Golf ball sized hole? just throw some tape on it, couple coats of mud, and paint. Never know it was there.


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## moore

Cratter said:


> Prefill is totally optional. Just use an All Purpose mud to tape not a lightweight AP.
> 
> Golf ball sized hole? just throw some tape on it, couple coats of mud, and paint. Never know it was there.


wrong!


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## moore

A golf ball sized hole is an egg hole ,,, blister ,, tear out and prefill !


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## alltex

Hardly ever prefill I just start taping . The tape i use is 500 ft. wide and 2 inches long ,besides i don,t give a hoot!! Can,t see it from my house. At todays prices you get what you pay for.I learned a long time ago if the price per ft. is low , get er done quicker so you make enouph money.


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## moore

Field General said:


> Waste is activities and behaviors that add cost but do not add value. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


quality is quality ,, no matter how you say it...


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## ding

alltex said:


> Hardly ever prefill I just start taping . The tape i use is 500 ft. wide and 2 inches long ,besides i don,t give a hoot!! Can,t see it from my house. At todays prices you get what you pay for.I learned a long time ago if the price per ft. is low , get er done quicker so you make enouph money.


500ft wide


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## Tim0282

That would be some seriously WIDE tape! :sneaky2:


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## boco

alltex said:


> Hardly ever prefill I just start taping . The tape i use is 500 ft. wide and 2 inches long ,besides i don,t give a hoot!! Can,t see it from my house. At todays prices you get what you pay for.I learned a long time ago if the price per ft. is low , get er done quicker so you make enouph money.


 Do they sell that tape at allwall? I gonna get me some of dat. I dont prefill ****. :thumbsup:


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## cdwoodcox

How could you not prefill and say you do quality work. Prefilling is a part of the job like sanding. Kind of like saying I don't sand seems unnecessary plus I can't make as much money if I sand.


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## boco

cdwoodcox said:


> How could you not prefill and say you do quality work. Prefilling is a part of the job like sanding. Kind of like saying I don't sand seems unnecessary plus I can't make as much money if I sand.


 I dont thin my mud. Fill all gaps as I go then apply tape. Duh Winning.


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## 2buckcanuck

boco said:


> I dont thin my mud. Fill all gaps as I go then apply tape. Duh Winning.


WTF


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## boco

2buckcanuck said:


> WTF


 2 buck your a machine guy i know you need prefill. hand tapers can be taught to work mud into all cracks while applying tape. i wish i could do videos giving examples of how to tape out corners without prefilling and doing butts without ving them out.


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## JustMe

moore said:


> quality is quality ,, no matter how you say it...





cdwoodcox said:


> How could you not prefill and say you do quality work.


Quantity is the new quality. So says the success of places like Walmart.


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## mudslingr

boco said:


> 2 buck your a machine guy i know you need prefill. hand tapers can be taught to work mud into all cracks while applying tape.



No offense but that's the   thing I've heard in awhile ! The point of hot mud is to prevent future cracking. The way temps are where I am go from 35°C and very humid summers to -45°C winters. With this change in temp regular mud will swell and shrink and you know what happens then.

My 12 year old could tape a bad angle if he tried but that doesn't mean he prepped it correctly.


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## 2buckcanuck

boco said:


> 2 buck your a machine guy i know you need prefill. hand tapers can be taught to work mud into all cracks while applying tape. i wish i could do videos giving examples of how to tape out corners without prefilling and doing butts without ving them out.


It's not really about the pre fill I'm questioning ,it's the straight stiff mud to tape with, you want some type of water to the mix, thats why I put the EEK  in


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## justadrywallguy

There are people who are in any trade that will try and skimp, dont mean they are right. Just my opinion. I prefill anything over a 1/8 gap, busted corners, bad routering then tape over it. But with me the builder or home owners know that I will put out the best job I can, and wont short them in terms of quality. Sure time is money, but dont quality stand for something also?:whistling2:


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## boco

mudslingr said:


> No offense but that's the   thing I've heard in awhile ! The point of hot mud is to prevent future cracking. The way temps are where I am go from 35°C and very humid summers to -45°C winters. With this change in temp regular mud will swell and shrink and you know what happens then.
> 
> My 12 year old could tape a bad angle if he tried but that doesn't mean he prepped it correctly.


 Keep pissing down your ap mud and you will have the problems YOU do.


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## silverstilts

Pre Filling is all part of the process. If you are not going through the process you are probably just a hack, take the money and run. And in the end high chances are, you will not work for the same GC when things start to fall apart. Don't take that long to run around and prefill anyway. Anyone complaining about not making enough money because of the time involved simple solution CHARGE MORE ..... Why do a half azz job.


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## moore

justadrywallguy said:


> There are people who are in any trade that will try and skimp, dont mean they are right. Just my opinion. I prefill anything over a 1/8 gap, busted corners, bad routering then tape over it. But with me the builder or home owners know that I will put out the best job I can, and wont short them in terms of quality. Sure time is money, but dont quality stand for something also?:whistling2:


THANK YOU.:thumbsup:


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## mudslingr

boco said:


> Keep pissing down your ap mud and you will have the problems YOU do.


 Not sure what you mean by that. I get a little nuts in awhile but don't really have any other problems.:whistling2:

Our applicator mud comes in a yellow box around here which signifies it has more glue in it so you CAN "piss it down" and it will keep it's integrity. Yes, you can go too far but I had that figured out 29 years ago. 

Again, NO offense was intended. Judging someone's tone online isn't an easy thing to do.

As far as pre-filling goes. Just do it. Give yourself piece of mind and a pat on the back for caring about possible future problems. After all, it's part of our job.


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## boco

mudslingr said:


> Not sure what you mean by that. I get a little nuts in awhile but don't really have any other problems.:whistling2:
> 
> Our applicator mud comes in a yellow box around here which signifies it has more glue in it so you CAN "piss it down" and it will keep it's integrity. Yes, you can go too far but I had that figured out 29 years ago.
> 
> Again, NO offense was intended. Judging someone's tone online isn't an easy thing to do.
> 
> As far as pre-filling goes. Just do it. Give yourself piece of mind and a pat on the back for caring about possible future problems. After all, it's part of our job.


 I do care . i think I just attack it in another way. I get rid of moisture then tape. That and I also use different sheetrock and products then you guys way up north do. I used canadien rock once and it was a nitemare. Way tooo punky


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## moore

MY Prefill :blink:the butts were tight. it's grid mark rock. loose paper^^^^:furious:


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## cdwoodcox

JustMe said:


> Quantity is the new quality. So says the success of places like Walmart.


I watched a show about Sam Walton the founder of walmart once on discovery or one of those channels. Sam started off small with the theory give people name brand products at an affordable price and they will come back. Do you think if he sold crap products Walmart would be what it is today. 
Sam also went out of his way to compensate his employees offering profit sharing, stock options, and store discounts. Walton believed that a happy employee meant happy customers and more sales. Walton believed that by giving employees a part of the company and making their success dependent on the company's success, they would care about the company.:thumbsup:

So see to compare cutting corners to the success a major retail store makes no since to me just offer quality (the best you can offer) be honest and make every person you work for feel like they are your most important client and the quantity will come and people will be happy to pay for it.:thumbup:


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## Cratter

moore said:


> A golf ball sized hole is an egg hole ,,, blister ,, tear out and prefill !


I meant a "hole" hole. All the way through the rock. Not a dent. Yes that would be a blister in that caseyou would definately need to tear it out. 

"Peace of mind" is all it gives you." If all seams are tight why would you need to waste time prefilling? Taping with "green mud" gives you a very strong bond. If something cracks later after that, its not the tapers fault. Bad Framing, etc. You get more money to come back and fix it.

Just like "V"ing out butt joint. Numerous people do it. Doesn't mean it does anything. :whistling2:

The bigger problem around here is "truss uplift" and that again is not a drywallers fault.


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## moore

Cratter said:


> I meant a "hole" hole. All the way through the rock. Not a dent. Yes that would be a blister in that caseyou would definately need to tear it out.
> 
> "Peace of mind" is all it gives you." If all seams are tight why would you need to waste time prefilling? Taping with "green mud" gives you a very strong bond. If something cracks later after that, its not the tapers fault. Bad Framing, etc. You get more money to come back and fix it.
> 
> Just like "V"ing out butt joint. Numerous people do it. Doesn't mean it does anything. :whistling2:
> 
> The bigger problem around here is "truss uplift" and that again is not a drywallers fault.


NATIONAL GYPSUM GRID MARK ... loose paper on factory butts. Factory trusses lift in the winter months then fall in the warm season . those metal braces contract in the cold. and expand when hot . walking trusses .

proper bracing can keep this problem at a minimum .


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## cdwoodcox

Cratter said:


> I meant a "hole" hole. All the way through the rock. Not a dent. Yes that would be a blister in that caseyou would definately need to tear it out.
> 
> "Peace of mind" is all it gives you." If all seams are tight why would you need to waste time prefilling? Taping with "green mud" gives you a very strong bond. If something cracks later after that, its not the tapers fault. Bad Framing, etc. You get more money to come back and fix it.
> 
> Just like "V"ing out butt joint. Numerous people do it. Doesn't mean it does anything. :whistling2:
> 
> The bigger problem around here is "truss uplift" and that again is not a drywallers fault.


Truss uplift isn't a problem if you use drywall clips give contractor option with adjusted price using clips. If he says no thanks hang like normal and it's his problem.


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## 2buckcanuck

boco said:


> I do care . i think I just attack it in another way. I get rid of moisture then tape. That and I also use different sheetrock and products then you guys way up north do. I used canadien rock once and it was a nitemare. Way tooo punky


All our Canadian products are just American products, Usg is cgc and so on, the only exception is gypsum X, and it is crap.

Not jumping down your throat Boco, but wondering what type of mud you use. Most hand tapers I know use cgc (USG) machine mud. There is no need to mix water with it, depending on application of coarse. So maybe I hastily said "WTF" to soon on my previous post. Product can make a difference:yes: I'm not sure of the colour of lid guys mentioned before, here on DWT. USG has machine mud, different name and box colour, just saying you might like the product if you have not already tried it

But yes I pre-fill, but just with straight stiff mud, we do the exact same thing moore does, with the pic he has posted. Some of those rockers can be very violent with their nails......guess some have issues


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## 2buckcanuck

cdwoodcox said:


> Truss uplift isn't a problem if you use drywall clips give contractor option with adjusted price using clips. If he says no thanks hang like normal and it's his problem.


Another way is to use no nails or screws on the perimeters, let the walls carry the weight. and keep out 16" with the screws from the walls.

Or........it's a pain but, after you do your ceilings, and then you you do the walls. Back the screws out of the ceiling edge or ends. If theres no screw in the sheet, then it won't lift with the trusses, it will rest on the walls.

Sometimes, while just being the taper, I have gone around backing out the screws or driving nails in around the perimeters where I know I'm going to get lift, and that all screws are 16" away from wall. Gravity will do it's trick, and the ceilings will come to rest on the walls.

Simple theory, if the rock is not attached to the truss, it can't lift


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## boco

2buckcanuck said:


> All our Canadian products are just American products, Usg is cgc and so on, the only exception is gypsum X, and it is crap.
> 
> Not jumping down your throat Boco, but wondering what type of mud you use. Most hand tapers I know use cgc (USG) machine mud. There is no need to mix water with it, depending on application of coarse. So maybe I hastily said "WTF" to soon on my previous post. Product can make a difference:yes: I'm not sure of the colour of lid guys mentioned before, here on DWT. USG has machine mud, different name and box colour, just saying you might like the product if you have not already tried it
> 
> But yes I pre-fill, but just with straight stiff mud, we do the exact same thing moore does, with the pic he has posted. Some of those rockers can be very violent with their nails......guess some have issues


 Right now I have been using proform black and topping with red. I have been giving a good mix sometimes 2 or 3 minutes at med speed (making sure not to create air bubbles ) but not adding water. Of coarse every now and then some pails are just too stiff and must be thinned a bit. It takes a little getting used to and knives must be super stiff and sharp. i try to get a little shrinkage as possible. I also find the mud sets a bit faster. just a ton of advantages to not thinning mud.


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## 2buckcanuck

cdwoodcox said:


> I watched a show about Sam Walton the founder of walmart once on discovery or one of those channels. Sam started off small with the theory give people name brand products at an affordable price and they will come back. Do you think if he sold crap products Walmart would be what it is today.
> Sam also went out of his way to compensate his employees offering profit sharing, stock options, and store discounts. Walton believed that a happy employee meant happy customers and more sales. Walton believed that by giving employees a part of the company and making their success dependent on the company's success, they would care about the company.:thumbsup:
> 
> So see to compare cutting corners to the success a major retail store makes no since to me just offer quality (the best you can offer) be honest and make every person you work for feel like they are your most important client and the quantity will come and people will be happy to pay for it.:thumbup:


It was sorta, I repeat sorta the same with Henry ford, not that he was pushing out the best product, but he wanted to make it so the average joe could afford to buy a car. His way was cutting production cost,and the assembly line of coarse, but he did double the wages of his workers, so they could one day buy his cars. If only the G.C.'s today, thought like Henry, what type of house would we own:whistling2:

He opened up a whole new market:yes:


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## boco

Gypsum x is the rock that I had used in the past. H/o special ordered it for a custom home with Vaulted ceilings and a 2 huge skylights. Walls came out great but ceilings and skylights were bad bad bad. Everything shrunk after finish coat of paint was applied and carpets were down. another thing I noticed was the beveled seams were alot deeper then than anything i had used before.


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## boco

2buckcanuck said:


> All our Canadian products are just American products, Usg is cgc and so on, the only exception is gypsum X, and it is crap.
> 
> Not jumping down your throat Boco, but wondering what type of mud you use. Most hand tapers I know use cgc (USG) machine mud. There is no need to mix water with it, depending on application of coarse. So maybe I hastily said "WTF" to soon on my previous post. Product can make a difference:yes: I'm not sure of the colour of lid guys mentioned before, here on DWT. USG has machine mud, different name and box colour, just saying you might like the product if you have not already tried it
> 
> But yes I pre-fill, but just with straight stiff mud, we do the exact same thing moore does, with the pic he has posted. Some of those rockers can be very violent with their nails......guess some have issues


 Um. Did you say Nails? I would shoot any rocker on site that used nails. . After the shooting I would prefill with durabond. Definately a no no and I wouldnt warranty it.


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## 2buckcanuck

boco said:


> Gypsum x is the rock that I had used in the past. H/o special ordered it for a custom home with Vaulted ceilings and a 2 huge skylights. Walls came out great but ceilings and skylights were bad bad bad. Everything shrunk after finish coat of paint was applied and carpets were down. another thing I noticed was the beveled seams were alot deeper then than anything i had used before.


Yes horrible stuff, did a commercial building for a dutch contractor once, it was the cheapest stuff he could find:whistling2:

x usually means fire rated, but this board goes by this name, it's made in Nova Scotia , Canada

Do not buy, Chinese drywall is better than this [email protected]:yes:


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## chris

*Prefill????*

sure seems like alot of talk is going on bout prefill:blink: Dont get me wrong ,almost every job requires a little but not enough too add steps to drywall.Do guys prefill angles? what part?butt joints??real bad ones but not all ..right?sometimes u get damaged board and have to prefill but normal hanging {clean,tight,done right}should not require. Blowouts,loose paper,bad framing{bad butts},do . If you are spending alot of TIME PREFILLIN u might want to have talk with hangers or framers:thumbsup:


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## smisner50s

Nailing perrimiter...screwing the field


boco said:


> Um. Did you say Nails? I would shoot any rocker on site that used nails. . After the shooting I would prefill with durabond. Definately a no no and I wouldnt warranty it.


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## moore

boco said:


> Um. Did you say Nails? I would shoot any rocker on site that used nails. . After the shooting I would prefill with durabond. Definately a no no and I wouldnt warranty it.


Come down here .. and shoot them all.:gun_bandana::2guns::2guns::gun_bandana:


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## 2buckcanuck

boco said:


> Um. Did you say Nails? I would shoot any rocker on site that used nails. . After the shooting I would prefill with durabond. Definately a no no and I wouldnt warranty it.


The G.C. is the boss, you do what your told


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## SlimPickins

boco said:


> Um. Did you say Nails? I would shoot any rocker on site that used nails. . After the shooting I would prefill with durabond. Definately a no no and I wouldnt warranty it.


Cool, we could have a shootout just like they did in Reservoir Dogs.


You guys and your absolutes.......


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## McDusty

I pre-fill:
- bad butts (not all butts)
- some nail holes (nails suck and they should be outlawed)
- any gaps over 1/4"
- bad router jobs around lights & plugs.

i use straight out of the box synko taping mud for pre-fill. I do all the screws at the same time. first thing i do when i walk into a house, screws & pre-fill.


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## moore

SlimPickins said:


> Cool, we could have a shootout just like they did in Reservoir Dogs.
> 
> 
> You guys and your absolutes.......


I don't wanna be Mr. Pink..:no:


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## JustMe

cdwoodcox said:


> I watched a show about Sam Walton the founder of walmart once on discovery or one of those channels. Sam started off small with the theory give people name brand products at an affordable price and they will come back. Do you think if he sold crap products Walmart would be what it is today.
> Sam also went out of his way to compensate his employees offering profit sharing, stock options, and store discounts. Walton believed that a happy employee meant happy customers and more sales. Walton believed that by giving employees a part of the company and making their success dependent on the company's success, they would care about the company.:thumbsup:


Sam Walton is dead (1992). Others are running things. Employees aren't sounding as 'associate' as they maybe once did.



cdwoodcox said:


> So see to compare cutting corners to the success a major retail store makes no since to me just offer quality (the best you can offer) be honest and make every person you work for feel like they are your most important client and the quantity will come and people will be happy to pay for it.:thumbup:


One Walmart mandate about things like staple products is to make the price lower than the year before. That helps to bring people in. Read around about how such as brand name manufacturers are cutting corners to make that happen for what they ship to Walmart. Non-staple brand name manufacturers are doing it as well.
I just threw out some holey socks, made by a name brand and bought at Walmart, which blew holes in the heels of them after wearing them only 3-4 times.
Also recently had some packaged sandwich meat that my wife wouldn't let me feed to our 2 dogs, because of how it smelled when I opened the 2 packages a day after we bought them. Never had to do that with sandwich meats from other stores. At least not that I can recall.

And then there's the products that are priced somewhat higher, even a fair amount higher at times, to what I can buy from smaller retailers. Walmart, with their buying power and industry recognized controls for keeping overhead down, can't buy those cheaper and so sell cheaper than them? They're playing a price shell game, all in the name of profits. Not that I hold it against them.



cdwoodcox said:


> just offer quality (the best you can offer) be honest and make every person you work for feel like they are your most important client and the quantity will come and people will be happy to pay for it.:thumbup:


Quantity from people being happy to pay more. Uhhh-huh.


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