# Paper or Mesh?



## tburritt

I don't do a lot of new construction mostly remod and was woundering what tape do you use? Is one superior to the other?


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## DRYWALLDAN

*Paper Or Mesh*

I Use Mesh For Patching And Small Jobs On Flats But I Feel Paper Is Better For Angles Due To The Crease Helpes Make Clean Ceiling Lines...my 21 Years Of Experience Opinion...


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## pacesafety

I agree with Dan. Mesh for patches is the only way to go. Making paper disappear takes way too much time and material


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## savant

Ditto


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## BoB The Fixer

I use mesh for everything , and paper for corners. sometimes i also use mesh for corners, for me i prefere mesh , but both are good for the job ! 

cheers


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## Brockster

I mesh all short tapes (flats) like next to door ways and the short ones next to windows. I put on the mesh tape as I'm cutting out blowouts and coat the mesh on prefill that way the short flats ore out of the way. (Wiping out short flats are a pain for me.) Also, I mesh flats in the closets because that is much easier than getting the bazookee in there.


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## OraarO

*Thought mesh can crack easier?*

I am fairly new to drywall taping and finishing, but an experienced guy who taught me some things doesn't ever use mesh on seams because he claims it cracks. He showed me a job he took over, and the previous guy taped the ceiling joints with mesh. There was a hairline crack running down the seam.

Is this caused by the material used, or ceiling shifting? (I know, no one can see the problem here, but anyone else hear anything like that theory?)


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## butcherman

OraarO said:


> I am fairly new to drywall taping and finishing, but an experienced guy who taught me some things doesn't ever use mesh on seams because he claims it cracks. He showed me a job he took over, and the previous guy taped the ceiling joints with mesh. There was a hairline crack running down the seam.
> 
> Is this caused by the material used, or ceiling shifting? (I know, no one can see the problem here, but anyone else hear anything like that theory?)


 
It's most likely caused because some guys put the mesh on and then second coat it. You have to set the mesh by slaping compound in and taking it off. This is to work the compound and the mesh into the joint. Don't use lightweight compounds. They tend to come back out and don't set as well as all purpose compound. (Why isn't any one posting here anymore?)


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## OraarO

Butcherman -

Do you mean that you need to put down a coat of quickset, and then apply the mesh tape?

Does the quickset need to dry first?
What do you mean by "slapping compound in and then taking it off"?


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## butcherman

OraarO said:


> Butcherman -
> 
> Do you mean that you need to put down a coat of quickset, and then apply the mesh tape?
> 
> Does the quickset need to dry first?
> What do you mean by "slapping compound in and then taking it off"?


No, sorry for the confusion. Apply the mesh to the joint first. Then slap the quickset over the mesh so it goes thru the holes into the joint. This fills the joint and bonds the mesh to the joint. Then wipe it off almost like wiping paper tape,but sweep from north to south diagonaly then south to north diagonaly. This does two things, 1) It works the mud into the joint itself better. If you don't work it into the joint your just going over the top. Then the compound sucks into the joint resulting in a crack. 2) It stops the compound from coming out to where you have to scrape it down when it dries. Also a side note have you ever noticed when you coat screws with ez sand that you have to scrape them down before you second coat? To eliminate this coat screws the normal way and take off with the double sweep. In other word apply south to north, take off north to south, then sweep south to north. This extra step keeps you from having to scrape. The same principle applies to setting the mesh. Good luck


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## rettt

waltip.com Mesh is for ladies stockings and hair nets at the cafeterias. I have had to repair too many low grade patch jobs with fiberglass mesh tape. The fiberglass strands always seem to be sticking out after the mud has dried . I dont buy it i dont suggest it and i do not use it !


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## fr8train

It could've cracked because the original finisher didn't use the right compound. If your read the fine print on a roll of mesh, it says *for use with setting compound only. *He probably used regular compound, and crack. Myself, I use paper, and paper only. 

Stay away from the wet n stick or the peel n stink tape!! IMO, they are both junk. A buddy's house was done with the peel n stick by the previous owner. Every single seam, the tape is peeling off. I'll get over one of these days to fix it.


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## cooper

Mesh with hot mud, paper with taping mud. Supposedly the strongest bond of anything is mesh tape pre-filled with hot mud, or a 'setting compound.' You don't want to use any sort of hot mud with perfa tape--it just doesn't have the bonding power to hold the tape properly. 

Different regions use different materials. But here in Idaho, the guys that are using mesh tape in new construction are usually not the brightest.


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## butcherman

cooper said:


> Mesh with hot mud, paper with taping mud. Supposedly the strongest bond of anything is mesh tape pre-filled with hot mud, or a 'setting compound.' You don't want to use any sort of hot mud with perfa tape--it just doesn't have the bonding power to hold the tape properly.
> 
> Different regions use different materials. But here in Idaho, the guys that are using mesh tape in new construction are usually not the brightest.


 
Like anything, there are tricks and methods we use. If you put your mind to it you can find the way


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## cooper

butcherman said:


> Like anything, there are tricks and methods we use. If you put your mind to it you can find the way



Yeah, but the amount of shrinkage you will have using mesh vs. using perfa tape just isn't acceptable in new construction. For small patches it is fine, especially since you should be using hot mud and it will expand rather than shrink anyways. You can easily find yourself coating mesh tape three times if you are coating with regular mud. And when you are supposed to be making money taping in new construction, that equals unacceptable... At least to me....


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## butcherman

cooper said:


> Yeah, but the amount of shrinkage you will have using mesh vs. using perfa tape just isn't acceptable in new construction. For small patches it is fine, especially since you should be using hot mud and it will expand rather than shrink anyways. You can easily find yourself coating mesh tape three times if you are coating with regular mud. And when you are supposed to be making money taping in new construction, that equals unacceptable... At least to me....


I agree, but if you have a small job like a bathroom i can see using mesh, even though i use paper because i feel it's more durable. But i never noticed a shrinking difference do to the tape. But then again it the situations I'm referring to i would never use regular joint compound to set mesh. What's the point in that? At that point bring out the banjo or bazooka. I do this only in multiple coat situations like finishing a bath in one day.


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## brdn_drywall

999 times out of a 1000 paper,if i can't use it in my taper i'm not using it ,so paper i geuss.


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## KingOfDrywall

"It could've cracked because the original finisher didn't use the right compound. If your read the fine print on a roll of mesh, it says *for use with setting compound only. *He probably used regular compound, and crack. Myself, I use paper, and paper only". 
This is absolutely right. I hate it when people use to tell me....."mesh sucks it cracks"
Make sure you use quickset with mesh. And as for Tape.....Green lid......not plus 3 or topping. I notice alot of people and even some drywallers act like the color of the lid on the bucket or the color of the box is a matter of preference.....LMAO......IT ISN'T!!!! Usually if there is a problem with tape popping loose or mesh cracking.....it's the misuse of a product. Not the weather, or the name brand ,or the house is shifting,.....it just wasn't done right.


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## TooledUp

Most guys over here, even seasoned tool tapers, use mesh for flats now. One coat of 90 minute then one coat of regular to finish and a perfect job every time. Maybe why a lot of people fail with mesh is the actual tools used to apply the mud and skim the joint. 99.9% use a hawk and trowel here rather than a wipe down knife and mud tray.

I'm thinking of getting a monster mesh applicator and using the boxes to apply the 90 minute. Just gotta be careful to clean the boxes and pump out beefore it sets lol.

Nobody that I know uses mesh for corners. - Never heard of it done around here. The majority of the mesh rolls we get do not recommend for corners anyway...


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## KingOfDrywall

that's what I'm a big fan of.....lol
2 guys can mesh 300 sheets in about 1/2 hour. Than use 90 minute quickset in the mud box and bed coat it, having the second guy removing any lap marks right behind you with a 10" knife. After that sets up((as long as you did a super tight-clean bed coat), you can top it with plus 3 before you finish out for the day. Back in the day when I worked for another drywall company it was paper tape only. That would leave us only with the possibility of taping out a large job in 1 day. You can't mud over top of wet paper tape. So after taping everything....that'd be it for that day. To me paper tape vs. mash is a no-brainer. Now, if the seams are rough and beat up....I may consider using paper tape on some of them.


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## joepro0000

Well here in Florida, we paper tape on drywall, and it drys quick enough to run two coats with the boxes in one day. Mesh is only for patching.


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## KingOfDrywall

*good point*

The fact is, depending on where you live I guess if it dries quick enough so that it doesn't hold you up on a job.....either one works fine. People can debate all day and night over which one is "better". In my experience mesh is better only because you'll never have cracking issues or paper popping off(as long as it's applied with the correct compounds). Also with tape, you need to tape-bed-skim....that's a total of 3 steps. With mesh...you can have 2 guys apply it right in front of you and you can be on their toes running you mud box with 90 minute. Here in Ohio we use it on garages almost 100% of the time because garages are exposed to weather elements and constantly changing temperatures.No popping or cracking. The undebatable issue is that the fiber in mesh is far stronger than the paper tape. However, if you are a drywaller that does a ton of large homes or commercial projects.......from a cost standpoint.....nothing is gonna beat paper tape and a taping tube!!!!. To compare one to the other may not be fair......they seem to each have their pros and cons depending on the purpose ,location and application. That's my take I guess.....lol


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## joepro0000

Absoultely said! It depends on where your working, and the weather. Plus for commerical jobs where you have to do fire-tapping, mesh tape cannot make a wall fire-rated, you need to use paper.


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## rockmagic

finally, guys that like mesh as much as i do. and knows when and where to use mesh and paper.:thumbup:


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## Mr Wallboard

KingOfDrywall said:


> The fact is, depending on where you live I guess if it dries quick enough so that it doesn't hold you up on a job.....either one works fine. People can debate all day and night over which one is "better". In my experience mesh is better only because you'll never have cracking issues or paper popping off(as long as it's applied with the correct compounds). Also with tape, you need to tape-bed-skim....that's a total of 3 steps. With mesh...you can have 2 guys apply it right in front of you and you can be on their toes running you mud box with 90 minute. Here in Ohio we use it on garages almost 100% of the time because garages are exposed to weather elements and constantly changing temperatures.No popping or cracking. The undebatable issue is that the fiber in mesh is far stronger than the paper tape. However, if you are a drywaller that does a ton of large homes or commercial projects.......from a cost standpoint.....nothing is gonna beat paper tape and a taping tube!!!!. To compare one to the other may not be fair......they seem to each have their pros and cons depending on the purpose ,location and application. That's my take I guess.....lol


1)How about INSIDE corners using mesh?
2)I disagree with mesh being stronger. I dug out cracks and used both and if the crack wants to return , it will , right next to your repair.


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## TooledUp

Mr Wallboard said:


> 1)How about INSIDE corners using mesh?
> 2)I disagree with mesh being stronger. I dug out cracks and used both and if the crack wants to return , it will , right next to your repair.


1). Mesh isn't recommended for internal corners.

2). If it's done right - With fast set (and not mixed too thin) then it shouldn't crack. The only time I've seen it crack is when it's been put on with regular mud or due to stress on the joints, in which case paper would do the same (known as crowning here in the UK).


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## JoeMudder

tburritt said:


> I don't do a lot of new construction mostly remod and was woundering what tape do you use? Is one superior to the other?


Paper and Mesh were made for different reasons, you can use paper anywhere, but mesh is not intended to be used anywhere. Mesh was made for factory seams only with durabond.

When you put mesh over any joint that is not a factory seam, when the joint cracks later on there is nothing that hides the crack. With paper tape it can crack under the paper and it wont show.

I watched another drywall guy put mesh tape on his butt joints and asked him why he does that. He explained that the person who taught him told him that if you wet tape the butt joint the mudd doesn't penetrate the joint enough which will cause problems later on such as bubbling and such. So I explained to him that using mesh will cause more problems because when it cracks there is no paper tape on the joint to hide it.

I went on to explain that neither would I wet tape a butt joint and told him that the guy who taught him was partially right but mesh tape isn't the solution. I apply mud to the butt join first pressing it into the joint, then dry tape over it and wipe it down. I never have a problem with butt joints.


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## silverstilts

rettt said:


> waltip.com Mesh is for ladies stockings and hair nets at the cafeterias. I have had to repair too many low grade patch jobs with fiberglass mesh tape. The fiberglass strands always seem to be sticking out after the mud has dried . I dont buy it i dont suggest it and i do not use it !


 I agree , mesh was not designed to bond joints together and hold , have yet to see one that has not had a hair line crack going through it after a while , I think that it was designed for a want a be taper.... besides the cost is ridiculous and you still can't use it on inside angles.


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## miguel

*Vega drywall*

WHY CANT YOU MUD OVER WET TAPE? WE DO IT ALL THE TIME AND NEVER HAVE ANY PROBLEMS!! MESH SHOULDNT BE USE IN ANGLES EVER, YOU WILL SPEND TO MUCH TIME KEEPING THE TAPE IN THE CENTER OR FROM FALLING WITH OUT MUD BEHIND IT. JUST USE YOUR BASOOKA ITS FASTER TO APPLY, AS LONG AS YOUR HELP CAN KEEP UP WITH YOU YOU SHOULDNT DROP ANY PERFA TAPE(AKA PAPER TAPE). MESH TAPE IS WONDERFUL FOR PATHCES AND SMALL JOBS WERE ITS NOT WORTH GETTING THE BASOOKA DIRTY(PAIN TO WASH IN WINTER MONTHS BRRR) THERE IS NO NEED FOR SPECAIL MUD OR HOW TO WIPE IT DOWN OR HOT MUD(QUICK SET) JUST APPLY TWO COATS OF WHAT EVER YOU WANT, REMEMBER TO LEAVE ENOUGH MUD ON SEEMS OR BUTTS TO MAKE IT FLAT, :jester:THANKS DRYWALL IS MY LIFE MY NAME IS MIGUEL OWNER OF VEGA DRYWALL IN ST GEORGE UTAH SOUTHERN UTAH


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## silverstilts

I guess to each his own , but where is the time saved using mesh when you have to have an abundant water supply for your so called hot mud , the time it takes to clean up that crap ,the time it takes to mix it , and also the time it takes to fix all the pin holes from the bubbling because the so called quick set may have set but there is still so much moister in it your next coat bubbles not only from the moister but also from the chemical reaction ( the catalyst ) which the mud seems to get heated up in the setting process causing bubbles.... mesh was designed for manufactured homes in a controlled facility where quality is not truly measured but where production is needed to profit the company ... Be honest & Take a good look at a job that had mesh tape and HOT MUD applied and if there were so called flat walls (smooth) you will find many pock holes where the mud bubbled and not fixed...enough said if one is to do a job and do it well take the time and do it right without cutting corners. Yes fiberglass is strong but there is still to much movement where paper tape does bond solid but still has some flexibility and will be less likely to crack... again to each his own.....


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## Frankawitz

The thing with mesh tape used on new and repairs I have always found that with in six months mesh will show hair line cracks where paper will not unless the house shifts then it will show a mole line but will not open up like mesh does. I had a customer last year had a friend drywall her den with 14' catheral ceiling, her friend used all mesh tape and every seam and joint was cracking within three months. I use paper tape. retaped the whole room, Durabond 20 and paper tape.:thumbup:

www.frankawitz.net


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## miguel

*vega*

most of my work any more is to fix others work, also if you prefill your butt joints and seems hair line cracking will be very minimmel. ive work on homes that were built on blue clay so the home is always shifting I fixed and fixed the same patches over and over with mesh and paper tape seems like it take a little longer to crack when i use mesh. I even replace the sheet rock and blocked it still cracks, any of you drywall oldtimers have any suggestions:jester:


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## S&SDRYWALL

We try not to mud over wet tape. It doesnt give the mud proper time to dry and shrink, thus adding more mud on top of wet, unshrunken mud, gives disasters. maybe not short term. but its just one of those things I tell my guys NOT TO do, take an extra day, let the **** dry.



miguel said:


> WHY CANT YOU MUD OVER WET TAPE? WE DO IT ALL THE TIME AND NEVER HAVE ANY PROBLEMS!! MESH SHOULDNT BE USE IN ANGLES EVER, YOU WILL SPEND TO MUCH TIME KEEPING THE TAPE IN THE CENTER OR FROM FALLING WITH OUT MUD BEHIND IT. JUST USE YOUR BASOOKA ITS FASTER TO APPLY, AS LONG AS YOUR HELP CAN KEEP UP WITH YOU YOU SHOULDNT DROP ANY PERFA TAPE(AKA PAPER TAPE). MESH TAPE IS WONDERFUL FOR PATHCES AND SMALL JOBS WERE ITS NOT WORTH GETTING THE BASOOKA DIRTY(PAIN TO WASH IN WINTER MONTHS BRRR) THERE IS NO NEED FOR SPECAIL MUD OR HOW TO WIPE IT DOWN OR HOT MUD(QUICK SET) JUST APPLY TWO COATS OF WHAT EVER YOU WANT, REMEMBER TO LEAVE ENOUGH MUD ON SEEMS OR BUTTS TO MAKE IT FLAT, :jester:THANKS DRYWALL IS MY LIFE MY NAME IS MIGUEL OWNER OF VEGA DRYWALL IN ST GEORGE UTAH SOUTHERN UTAH


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## Muddauber

S&SDRYWALL said:


> We try not to mud over wet tape. It doesnt give the mud proper time to dry and shrink, thus adding more mud on top of wet, unshrunken mud, gives disasters. maybe not short term. but its just one of those things I tell my guys NOT TO do, take an extra day, let the **** dry.


All of the mexican crews around here tape a job then coat everything the same day.Even in cool damp weather.By the time the tape and coat dries and sucks up on the flats it looks like s***, but hey,they're the ones getting all the jobs and I've been off all week.:furious:


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## S&SDRYWALL

Thats stupid, and when we go to a home-owner or a new construction company, we tell them our process, and process of others who hurry just to get the check. we are locked into a 135 unit condo development for the next 2 years, but we still take custom homes on the side and commercial buildings, our guys do everything the same, the right way. You could blow threw the job, to hurry up and get it done. but why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a new house, and then butcher the inside of it? quality doesnt matter to some people.


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## j m hagelstein

i use mesh tape all the time,never had a problem with it.i agree with butcherman.


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## S&SDRYWALL

Then you sir are doing drywall incorrectly.


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## amestaper

Depends on what the client specifies. I'm happy with either method for flat joints but its always paper on an internal corner. Also dependant on how much time you have to finish the job.

During the Scottish winter I've seen a 7 " box over a flat tape take 5 days to dry out properly.

If theres a deadline on small jobs I can use mesh/scrim tape and apply 1 coat of 90 minute setting compound and a 10" box of mud/joint cement in a single day.

However, larger jobs and a warmer climate would get the paper tape and 3 coats every time.

Until I relocate farther south, I have to use both methods dependant on the weather.


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## j m hagelstein

S&SDRYWALL said:


> Then you sir are doing drywall incorrectly.


 i have used mesh for years , never gone back on a job ,clients happy.
gone back on other jointers jobs,paper tape failed,clients not happy.
sorry sir not done incorrectly.keep the clients happy.:yes:


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## S&SDRYWALL

Hate to say it but if your using mesh tape in corners, thats terrible.


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## Frankawitz

From the looks of it, it seems it's to each his own. some like mesh others use paper. enough said.


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## j m hagelstein

S&SDRYWALL said:


> Hate to say it but if your using mesh tape in corners, thats terrible.


explain your answer please.


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## S&SDRYWALL

I just dont use it , why because I never have and never will, for angles that is. Ill use it on patches and stuff like that, Guess if it worked for you, great, but I wont use it.


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## silverstilts

You can say all you want about mess (Yes mesh is nothing more than a mess) tape and how it holds up , hog wash it is made for the so called tapers that never mastered or learned how to tape.... or the do it yourself guys . I'm sure this comment will add fuel to the flames , the one that mentioned that he always repairs with mesh where paper tape cracks , maybe if you have problems with paper tape you better go back and learn how to tape or find a new career..... to many want-a-be tapers out there , tape one job and think that they know everything there is to know...


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## jim

Dig into your UL specifications etc. Mesh is NOT stronger than paper. It does however have a specialized place in our trade. ( when applied by proffesionals that are aware of its faults and use it accordingly


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## j m hagelstein

scrim tape works perfect for me when applied with joint filler and then topped with joint cement,never no problems.end of story.


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## miguel

I wont angle tape with it, its perfect for little jobs, kind of silly to bring a basooka for a 12 sheet job aint it? I probably strung more tape than most. I've been told by a 30 year vetran drywaller, that you'll always run in to a cocky drywaller that thinks he knows all but really dont know s..t, its true I trained lots of them after two years they know all and mastered tapeing...... all they know is to go fast do the motions and have no idea why they do them. and say done aint it.


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## silverstilts

I guess everyone has there minds made up as to what works best for them and this is what this forum is all about to get feedback.......I wonder does it matter where you are from as to how the mesh holds up? Does it hold up better in warmer climates where there is less movement within the framing ???? Maybe because of humidity causing wood to expand and swell , or where it is cold and dry everything seems to shrink??? Just a thought about how our climate where we live could possibly change and effect the performance of our materials used...


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## Custom Drywall Svc.

we only use mesh tape for patches, small jobs....or problematic cracks, etc...


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## JoeMudder

miguel said:


> WHY CANT YOU MUD OVER WET TAPE? WE DO IT ALL THE TIME AND NEVER HAVE ANY PROBLEMS!! MESH SHOULDNT BE USE IN ANGLES EVER, YOU WILL SPEND TO MUCH TIME KEEPING THE TAPE IN THE CENTER OR FROM FALLING WITH OUT MUD BEHIND IT. JUST USE YOUR BASOOKA ITS FASTER TO APPLY, AS LONG AS YOUR HELP CAN KEEP UP WITH YOU YOU SHOULDNT DROP ANY PERFA TAPE(AKA PAPER TAPE). MESH TAPE IS WONDERFUL FOR PATHCES AND SMALL JOBS WERE ITS NOT WORTH GETTING THE BASOOKA DIRTY(PAIN TO WASH IN WINTER MONTHS BRRR) THERE IS NO NEED FOR SPECAIL MUD OR HOW TO WIPE IT DOWN OR HOT MUD(QUICK SET) JUST APPLY TWO COATS OF WHAT EVER YOU WANT, REMEMBER TO LEAVE ENOUGH MUD ON SEEMS OR BUTTS TO MAKE IT FLAT, :jester:THANKS DRYWALL IS MY LIFE MY NAME IS MIGUEL OWNER OF VEGA DRYWALL IN ST GEORGE UTAH SOUTHERN UTAH


If you have enough mud under the tape you can coat over wet tape. If there isn't enough mud under it air bubbles will appear later. This is one of the problems with wet taping seams if you are pulling your tape out of a hopper. It's better to apply the dry tape over the compound if you intend to coat over wet tape. The trouble with wet taping out of a hopper is because the spots where you are holding the tape are all pinched and mud pulls away from the paper at those points leaving dry spots under it which can bubble later.

The only way I know to wet tape flat seams without problems is by using a banjo.


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## Bevelation

Hi, I'm new so I have to resurrect this 2 week old thread. 

I wet tape everything, but mesh is nice for patch. I have heard of a system where mesh tape could be used in angles, but I just don't see it used around here.

I have so far stuck with Super Taper / hopper tape dispensing. I've only had problems with bubbling tape if there either wasn't enough mud under the tape or if the joint mud wasn't mixed down thin enough. What I do see with coating over wet tape is the seam shrinking back behind the flat. Hitting the flat with hot mud before you string tapes seems to help.


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## Mudshark

*Rock, Scissors, PAPER*

Well King of Drywall, you make a good case for mesh tape. Still go along with paper though for everything. Haven't seen mesh pass through many bazookas very well! Don't need to carry two types of tapes around. Have to schedule our workloads to offset the time it takes for the tapes to dry. Having more than one unit or building on the go at once is ideal.


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## JoeMudder

Even if I were to use all paper, I still like to have some mesh around. I put it in the inside angles where there are gaps so that when I paper tape them the tape doesn't suck into the corner.


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## paulyronaldo

*mesh vs paper*

hi, here in the uk we use a lot of mesh tape!!!! probablly because of our climate,the drying time is usually very slow when bedding paper over here - although paper tape is a far superior material.
paper is pouros and actually absorbs the joint compound thus the paper tape becomes part of the plasterboard forming a far superior bond that never usually cracks.
but using mesh tape allows us to apply 2 coats in a day so we can throw a 12" box over the following day and wallah! finished drywall in 48hrs,if we use paper tape its a much slower process-no if buts about it!
for the first coat we always use a fast setting joint filler or hot mud you guys in the usa call it, this is the industry standard in the uk,ive never really come accross enough cracks to worry me about using mesh,and doing it this way we are ready to 10" coat the flats once weve filled them and have layed all the internal corner tapes in - we always use paper for corners, its the only way, anyway running a corner finisher over mesh just doesnt work - i believe though tapetech made a corner finisher that paired up with the monster mesh taper to coat the meshed corners,anyone got one?-ive got a nice shiny monster mesh taper for sale if you want it !! never really took to it as i tape fast by hand and dont have time to learn new tools - took me a year to get used to my apla tech settup!!! 
anyway mesh tape vs paper ???
both for me im afraid, they both have their uses and are here to stay no matter how some of you feel......cheers


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## Apple24

small jobs i mesh tapeall flats coat w/ 45 min w 8'' then papertape buuts and corners saves a days work. ran 8'' box over sticky tape and worked great but you dont always have a hose on the job


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## KingOfDrywall

(((Never use mesh on angles......that's a flat out no-no))).
Debating on which is "better" is really a no brainer. Mesh tape is downright stronger under all circumstances. The debate only came about becasue people are not using it according to the manufacturers recommendations. When used accordingly mesh tape will never crack. It's not a matter of your preference on what mud compound to use when using mesh tape. Only 2 products go with mesh tape: durabond sheetrock quick setting compounds or even the brown bag compounds. Under no circumstances would a green lid or blue lid work. If you know anything about compounds you'd have to know this. Green has nothing more than glue in it, and blue lid(+3 for example) is nothing more than an easily sandable topping--no structural and very little adhesive properties. Paper tape will split down the middle or even "pop" under stress, mesh will only stretch. As far as how it finishes......run a mud box over either and they finish exactly the same. My question is........why so much debate? What are we debating?


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## KingOfDrywall

I have to add, for all those machine tool fans I had to mention this. Make no mistake...I can run a tube as fast as anyone. Easy 300-400+ sheets house with just myself and 1 helper in a short day (all angles,flats and butts). However, me and 1 other guy can mesh out the same size house in under 1 hour, than he does all the seams(flats and butts with the mud box) while I tape and run all the angles. By days end I not only hape everything taped, but a bed coat on everything.....I still have a tube and I'll only use it for the angles.........using it on flats and butts is a waste of time.


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## Apple24

:thumbup:


jim said:


> Dig into your UL specifications etc. Mesh is NOT stronger than paper. It does however have a specialized place in our trade. ( when applied by proffesionals that are aware of its faults and use it accordingly


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## Apple24

Still leary about mesh on exterior wall butts sometimes I'll double tape them but always v-out and prefille first w/ durabond. Actually rather paper tape butts so I can run a box over them. I think the debate would be that anyone who is in business for themselves or is responsible for call backs would be an absolute fool to tape any corner w/ mesh. Seen enough failures.


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## Apple24

KingOfDrywall said:


> I have to add, for all those machine tool fans I had to mention this. Make no mistake...I can run a tube as fast as anyone. Easy 300-400+ sheets house with just myself and 1 helper in a short day (all angles,flats and butts). However, me and 1 other guy can mesh out the same size house in under 1 hour, than he does all the seams(flats and butts with the mud box) while I tape and run all the angles. By days end I not only hape everything taped, but a bed coat on everything.....I still have a tube and I'll only use it for the angles.........using it on flats and butts is a waste of time.


 
This guy gets it must be from midwest where quality counts rice and beans wont cut it in high end const.


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## Apple24

Read the box, how are some of you people still working. You never coat wet tapes your manufacturer will not stand behind you when your whole job ridges.Wait a day then your mud won't shrink dowon to the tape.


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## KingOfDrywall

I do a few high end homes a year. Lets face it, The flats,butts and angles require little skill when using machine tools and doing it correctly. Key word is: IF DONE CORRECTLY. It's a no brainer. On high end homes I place more emphasis on the hand skills like perfect corner bead, the perfectly crisp angles and the final look over. Back in the day when I started in the trade, my old boss said to me "You don't do it any better going slower".......LMAO.


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## scottishtaperkev

yes most tapers use hawk n trowel here, but personly i use 10 inc knife for all joints n ceilings n walls i thk its faster than trowel, also we use 7inch box with fast set too 1st coat joints but you can only use a 2 buckets thn you have too go wash your tools but still quicker and good finish


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## tapingfool

After 25 yrs, I have done fine with paper tape only..I run a 7 inch box over the wet first coat tightly, I can then run a ten then 12, or a heavy twelve with thicker mud thru the canon!!


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## Whitey97

I didn't think anyone really used a 7 anymore


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## KingOfDrywall

In regards to the mesh tape vs. paper tape I have to say that the specifications are almost irrelevant. You could tear paper tape with your fingers........you couldn;t do it with a good mesh tape. The bond it holds to the board is almost irrelevant. Paper tape will "pop", or under extreme stress might even tear right down the middle. Mesh tape would never do either of those. So, as for which tape is stronger........mesh.
That's why I asked what the debate was. Mesh is unarguabley harder to tear. Try it yourself .:whistling2:


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## pobrown1

mesh tape sucks. problem solved


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## joepro0000

Mesh tape= need to apply the first coat with durabond, no regular pre-mixed, and will take more time, and can't fill it out with the tools for the first coat.

Paper tape = Can finish with 2 coats!


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## JoeMudder

joepro0000 said:


> Mesh tape= need to apply the first coat with durabond, no regular pre-mixed, and will take more time, and can't fill it out with the tools for the first coat.
> 
> Paper tape = Can finish with 2 coats!


Although this is true, my finishing time with mesh and durabond is faster.


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## KingOfDrywall

Of course it's faster. I'm beginning to question everyones experience here....LMAO
Mesh tape vs. paper tape??
That's like when a customer tells me they like to top and spot nails with the "green lid". It's not a matter of question or preference.
Bottom line-----Mesh is stronger than paper tape. A no brainer.
Try tearing it with your fingers.....you couldn't tear mesh but you could tear paper tape.So how are we even debating that paper tape is stronger? I've seen posts where people are talking about using mesh tape than using "green lid" or plus 3...abd they say mesh sucks becasue it cracks ....LMAO ((((HELLO!!!!))))..um.....that's another problem((Like a less than skilled finisher using the wrong products)), certainly not a mesh tape issue. Hey...all good here. All I am saying is we know it's stronger and when used correctly((with the right compound and on flats and butts only)) it can get you a step ahead on a project. Unless of course we all agree it's ok to bed coat over top of wet paper tape? In summary......tell me you don;t like the way it finishes or something......but to say it's weaker and slower?? I question that.:jester:


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## KingOfDrywall

joepro
What did you mean you can't fill it out with the tools?
All you need is some 210 or 90 minutes, a pump ,a mud box and a water hose.
We constantly run durabond through our mud boxes.
haven't had any problems ever.


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## Bangzoom

I agree with Sand S drywall. Paper corners for sure. Clients want square corners not round(especially mill work trades). When running fiba tape mesh on butt seams and factory seams we use two coats of mesh. One coat of mesh tape is not strong enough. Use only on small jobs. Paper the big ones.


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## Quality1st

*Mesh Used Correctly*

Mesh should only be coated with set fast material on first coat, period. Iy should only be used on flats, detail work,reinforcing bad hanging screwups and i use it on the edges of my metal to guarantee no cracking. It can be used on butts, but, if you do you have to completely bury the tape or it may hairline crack layer on. Plasteres use mesh on everything ,but they bury it with a finish coat after its flush. As far as stronger i still don,t know about that. The setfast gives it the rigidity it has to have. I know every trick in the book for using mesh to perform miracles on screwups and to save time ect.. Been using it for over 20 years in this way and realize its limited use. It shouldn,t be used on angles, except on a patch job and even then you have to tuck it way in the angle ,or your knife will weaken the tape. I use paper on everything except as noted. GIDDYUP


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## drywall guy158

paper tape on EVERYTHING! my thoughts ..... if you cant use paper tape with out getting air pockets under the tape then find another trade-job !
quit 1/2 a..ing things and giving drywall a bad name ! I hear so many people complaining about cracks in there drywall only to find out it was done by someone trying to short cut it with mesh tape ect.


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## drywallpro

"Perfect Finish" mesh tape

Anyone ever try the FibaTape "Perfect Finish" It is thinner with 50% more intersection points for strength. It is designed for butt joints it says. I was wondering how it holds up if you use USG easy sand on the fist coat. The problem with butts and mesh is the amount of quick set is so thin on the tape that there is no strength to hold it from cracking. ( This is my thought )


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## Stinger

In time you will learn that the mesh has nothing to do with rather or not your work is going to hold up when used with quick set. If you get a chance, experiment with it at your own home or a place where no one cares. You can mesh tape and quick set a joint or butt, or you can just mud the joint with no mesh at all. I have seen a couple "don't give a s*^T" finishers coat a whole garage or basement in their own home with quick set mud and no tape at all and the joints have held up without cracking for 4-5 years. That's why the manufacturers tell you to use setting type compounds only with mesh. Because the mesh tape doesn't help prevent cracks. It's the hot mud that does the work. Try it out. When you realize you don't even need to put mesh on but you will probably get ran off a job if you get caught, you will have to decide if you want to cheat part way, or all the way. Or, just paper tape to eliminate questions like you have now and keep jobs coming in.


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## Bevelation

Paper tape may tear easily, but tapers don't put up dry paper tape onto walls.
Try tearing paper tape that has 1/8th of an inch dried taping mud behind it. Better yet, try tearing it off the wall. If you use good mud product, the bond created by the mud can be stronger than the board itself.

Mesh is definitely harder, but that makes it more brittle. With any movement it is more likely to crack sooner than paper tape. Paper tape will crack, but not nearly as soon as fiber, because the paper tape flexes. When it flexes, it's simple to fix. Sometimes the paper joints give way a lot before they crack.

I like fixing jobs where fiber taped butts are cracked, because all I have to do is pull on the tape and since it's SO strong, it all peels off! Peeling off a dried paper tape is another story.


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## BoB The Fixer

Hey Guys ! 

I am amazed from those who say u cannot put premixed mud on top of mesh ! I used both mesh and paper, but since 4 years now i only use mesh tape and i just put the mixed mud on top for the day and next day i put finish coat! done tons of offices and basements and houses ! its perfect ! who got the "theory" that u HAVE to use durabond for the 1st coat ! 

mesh is the best for hand tapers, and paper is the best ( or only choice ) for machines,

best wishes.


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## silverstilts

that's a load of crap. not the way it is intended for. I would really like to see the finished product withing one year and see how it is holding up. guaranteed cracks.


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## wnybassman

Years ago we used mesh on two jobs with AP mud. Both had cracking problems. The end, no more.


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## BoB The Fixer

Thats really wierd ! i used it everyday and will use it always for 4 years now ! i never get one call back ! donno why do u get cracking problems ! can someone explain it scientifically ?


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## silverstilts

BoB The Fixer said:


> Thats really wierd ! i used it everyday and will use it always for 4 years now ! i never get one call back ! donno why do u get cracking problems ! can someone explain it scientifically ?


The only scientific thing I can say is you expectations of a top notch quality job is substandard. Have you ever seen a quality job done by others or are you only comparing it to you own work ? I guarantee again if you go back and even put the littlest of pressure against the wall you will crack the flats if they haven't already time and time again I have seen hairline cracks. You say you haven't had any call backs in 4 years of use ? Hardly believe that is the case there is always some callbacks over that amount of time. How many jobs have you even done in four years ? Or how many sheets a year are you doing ? I own and operate a small company and average over a million sq. ft. plus of board per year . I know full well what has been tried and tested, from commercial to residential seen all of it. The only way I can see it not cracking from the use of regular mud is if it is glued on and over concrete.


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## Saul_Surfaces

BoB The Fixer said:


> Thats really wierd ! i used it everyday and will use it always for 4 years now ! i never get one call back ! donno why do u get cracking problems ! can someone explain it scientifically ?


The science has to do with yield strength. You can see it for yourself by taking a length of fiber tape, and laying it beside a length of paper tape. Now bend and flex them. You're likely to see the mesh is more willing to bend and manipulate. This means the tape distributes the force of any movement between two sheets over a smaller width along the joint, which increases the chance that the mud will yield and show a resultant hairline crack (but not yield so much as to open and show a wide crack). The manufacturer's recommendation for use of setting compound on first coat of mesh tape is likely so that the extra hard setting compound distributes applied forces over a wider area. Perhaps there are other muds on the market which harden sufficiently to avoid cracking. 

That's my two cents' worth anyways.


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## alltex

Use rebels vario mud from Germany it won,t crack with paper ,mesh, or no tape at all.At least what i,v done with it hasn,t .No call backs yet. Its like working hot mud .


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## fenez

how do you do your corners with the vario mud? tape.. no tape... mesh?


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## BoB The Fixer

ok ok ok now we are asking how many did i do a year and all this talk thats not needed !! 

The buildings i am working at are 20 floors each , and we built them more than 15 years ago and all of them are MESH TAPED except fire tape areas, and there is no cracks no complaints since that time ! we do demolish whole floors and re-design them according to the new customers requests ! and there is no ONE CALL back for cracks , not for everything ( touch ups come once in a while as normal ) ... 

but u know what .. for those who asked how many drywall sqft i did or such questions , i will just skip them and wont bother .. 

if your not a knight , don't blame the horse !! 

best wishes,


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## alltex

i taped the angles with the bazoka ,but they say no tape is ok withe vario.its just faster with the tube.


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## fenez

Hmmm wonder if you could just roll vario mud on in the corner and wipe with the better than ever angle tool, that would be really quick.. if it works of course.


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## paintingplus

I never use mesh on butts and don't like to use on seams much either.....Always seems to crack down the road. As said above...mesh is good for patching. Just my opinion.


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## d-rock

fenez said:


> Hmmm wonder if you could just roll vario mud on in the corner and wipe with the better than ever angle tool, that would be really quick.. if it works of course.


yo fen
what's vario mud?:blink:


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## d-rock

btw..i only use mesh tape on the edge of corner beads otherwise it's ok to repair cracks on plaster or patches.


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## fenez

d-rock said:


> yo fen
> what's vario mud?:blink:


It is that mud that claims that no tape is needed..I am waiting on some to give it a try.


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## d-rock

fenez said:


> It is that mud that claims that no tape is needed..I am waiting on some to give it a try.


lemme know how it works


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## Capt-sheetrock

KingOfDrywall said:


> Of course it's faster. I'm beginning to question everyones experience here....LMAO
> Mesh tape vs. paper tape??
> That's like when a customer tells me they like to top and spot nails with the "green lid". It's not a matter of question or preference.
> Bottom line-----Mesh is stronger than paper tape. A no brainer.
> Try tearing it with your fingers.....you couldn't tear mesh but you could tear paper tape.So how are we even debating that paper tape is stronger? I've seen posts where people are talking about using mesh tape than using "green lid" or plus 3...abd they say mesh sucks becasue it cracks ....LMAO ((((HELLO!!!!))))..um.....that's another problem((Like a less than skilled finisher using the wrong products)), certainly not a mesh tape issue. Hey...all good here. All I am saying is we know it's stronger and when used correctly((with the right compound and on flats and butts only)) it can get you a step ahead on a project. Unless of course we all agree it's ok to bed coat over top of wet paper tape? In summary......tell me you don;t like the way it finishes or something......but to say it's weaker and slower?? I question that.:jester:


 
You sir,,, are full of SHI&T

Or

as my Grandma would say " Don't pee down my back and tell me its raining"


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## d-rock

Mesh tape is stronger and not affected by water but, I've never tried using it to eliminate a bedding coat. I would imagine you'd need to use a sh*t load of mud to make it look good b/c of the shrinkage.


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## silverstilts

KingOfDrywall said:


> Of course it's faster. I'm beginning to question everyones experience here....LMAO
> Mesh tape vs. paper tape??
> That's like when a customer tells me they like to top and spot nails with the "green lid". It's not a matter of question or preference.
> Bottom line-----Mesh is stronger than paper tape. A no brainer.
> Try tearing it with your fingers.....you couldn't tear mesh but you could tear paper tape.So how are we even debating that paper tape is stronger? I've seen posts where people are talking about using mesh tape than using "green lid" or plus 3...abd they say mesh sucks becasue it cracks ....LMAO ((((HELLO!!!!))))..um.....that's another problem((Like a less than skilled finisher using the wrong products)), certainly not a mesh tape issue. Hey...all good here. All I am saying is we know it's stronger and when used correctly((with the right compound and on flats and butts only)) it can get you a step ahead on a project. Unless of course we all agree it's ok to bed coat over top of wet paper tape? In summary......tell me you don;t like the way it finishes or something......but to say it's weaker and slower?? I question that.:jester:


Sure it is stronger if you try to tear it, but it is not solid the strands move any direction you pull it so if you tape with it such as a flat you will get hairline cracks seen it so many times. So it is not necessarily the strength of the strands so much but, the movement unlike paper tape is solid and creates a solid bond. The only way to use it properly would be to pre fill everything with quick setting mud ( according to manufactures I believe) and coat with quick setting mud on the second coat, there is no speed in this. like I have said before christ you could just bypass the mesh and use quick-set and get the same results and we all know that this is not the proper way of taping. You can say all you want about quality of mesh and those of us that do not use it are not good finishers, Let me tell you something I will put any job I have done in the last 30 years and compare it to what you have done in the last 2 years and we will see who has the most cracking and problems. My work looks as good as it did when it was originally done, impeccable. I think that depending on where you live also dictates what quality is and MN is one of the leaders of quality of anywhere in the US. Enough said. And PLEASE DO NOT Question MY EXPERIENCE you know nothing about me. I feel just the oppisite that those who use mesh have yet to learn the basics on taping, anyone can apply mesh that is a no brainer...


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## alltex

No comment exept to silver MN is one of the leaders in quality in the US ,but washington is THE leader.You know what opinions are like !(But i do agree with you about hot mud and glas tape).


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## Capt-sheetrock

silverstilts said:


> Sure it is stronger if you try to tear it, but it is not solid the strands move any direction you pull it so if you tape with it such as a flat you will get hairline cracks seen it so many times. So it is not necessarily the strength of the strands so much but, the movement unlike paper tape is solid and creates a solid bond. The only way to use it properly would be to pre fill everything with quick setting mud ( according to manufactures I believe) and coat with quick setting mud on the second coat, there is no speed in this. like I have said before christ you could just bypass the mesh and use quick-set and get the same results and we all know that this is not the proper way of taping. You can say all you want about quality of mesh and those of us that do not use it are not good finishers, Let me tell you something I will put any job I have done in the last 30 years and compare it to what you have done in the last 2 years and we will see who has the most cracking and problems. My work looks as good as it did when it was originally done, impeccable. I think that depending on where you live also dictates what quality is and MN is one of the leaders of quality of anywhere in the US. Enough said. And PLEASE DO NOT Question MY EXPERIENCE you know nothing about me. I feel just the oppisite that those who use mesh have yet to learn the basics on taping, anyone can apply mesh that is a no brainer...


Thanks Silver, I couldn't have said it better myself,,,,, You hit the nail on the head


----------



## fenez

Ok..I figured what the hell, I just took a huge leap of faith, I just did an 80 board job with mesh and 20 min durabond. used mesh on the flats and butts used paper in the corners. The out come? I got to say it was fast as hell and all the joints were flat as hell plus the butts were much easier to do. I have to say this system has some given me something to think about.


----------



## d-rock

silverstilts said:


> Sure it is stronger if you try to tear it, but it is not solid the strands move any direction you pull it so if you tape with it such as a flat you will get hairline cracks seen it so many times. So it is not necessarily the strength of the strands so much but, the movement unlike paper tape is solid and creates a solid bond. The only way to use it properly would be to pre fill everything with quick setting mud ( according to manufactures I believe) and coat with quick setting mud on the second coat, there is no speed in this. like I have said before christ you could just bypass the mesh and use quick-set and get the same results and we all know that this is not the proper way of taping. You can say all you want about quality of mesh and those of us that do not use it are not good finishers, Let me tell you something I will put any job I have done in the last 30 years and compare it to what you have done in the last 2 years and we will see who has the most cracking and problems. My work looks as good as it did when it was originally done, impeccable. I think that depending on where you live also dictates what quality is and MN is one of the leaders of quality of anywhere in the US. Enough said. And PLEASE DO NOT Question MY EXPERIENCE you know nothing about me. I feel just the oppisite that those who use mesh have yet to learn the basics on taping, anyone can apply mesh that is a no brainer...


I'm sure your experience is unsurpassed. I don't disagree with you about mesh tape and it's uses either. However, let's settle down on that quality issue..Aren't you guy still doing sparay textures etc..Trust me, you get into working on some hi-end projects in NYC it will make you feel like an amateur. I've seen grown men that worked on typical projects their whole careers, storm off these high end projects b/c they thought it was unreasonable to expect that type of perfection.


----------



## kgphoto

Silver Stilts,

Have you tried that new Fiba Fuse Fiberglass tape, yet? Doesn't stretch like that yellow tape (or blue or white or purple, etc) and is easy to tear by hand or cut with drywall knife.


----------



## silverstilts

d-rock said:


> I'm sure your experience is unsurpassed. I don't disagree with you about mesh tape and it's uses either. However, let's settle down on that quality issue..Aren't you guy still doing sparay textures etc..Trust me, you get into working on some hi-end projects in NYC it will make you feel like an amateur. I've seen grown men that worked on typical projects their whole careers, storm off these high end projects b/c they thought it was unreasonable to expect that type of perfection.


We do our share of textured ceilings whether orange peel knockdown or whatever they want walls are always smooth and all commercial jobs are always smooth. Currently working on a church remodel that the building is over a hundred years old. 
There is no textured ceilings in there , between the walls and ceilings approximately 50,000' feet to finish Including a zillion beads it seems . We do our fair share of smooth. I think also one must way in the factor of the cost of the mesh itself how everyone is concerned with the price of paper faced bead versus metal. So why not compare the cost of tape. Then no matter how fast it is to apply mesh you have to factor in the clean up with the quick setting mud. You also cannot use it in the angles which eats up a lot of footage also so why use different products for the same end result ?
All I can say for sure what ever works for you and depending on what you can get away with ( which that's the way most seem to think ) do whatever turns you on. I do not have to worry about someone Else's reputation only my own. Different areas in the US and abroad mean different work habits and methods along with different standards as far as quality and durability.


----------



## silverstilts

kgphoto said:


> Silver Stilts,
> 
> Have you tried that new Fiba Fuse Fiberglass tape, yet? Doesn't stretch like that yellow tape (or blue or white or purple, etc) and is easy to tear by hand or cut with drywall knife.


 No sir I haven't, Is it even cost effective compared to a case of regular tape ?


----------



## kgphoto

It is simply stronger. I haven't found a local supplier, so I can't give you a price comparison. Perhaps it is available near you. You can request a sample to see what you think of it.

I mostly intend to use it for the corner repairs of doors. I patch a lot of those and normally do a lot more work to make them last. I have a client who will let me test them on her home, so I will see how it performs. 

I already tested in on my home an it is holding up well, but the big test will come in a few months.

The school will build a test wall next semester and we will get to stress the wall and see what fails first.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

d-rock said:


> I'm sure your experience is unsurpassed. I don't disagree with you about mesh tape and it's uses either. However, let's settle down on that quality issue..Aren't you guy still doing sparay textures etc..Trust me, you get into working on some hi-end projects in NYC it will make you feel like an amateur. I've seen grown men that worked on typical projects their whole careers, storm off these high end projects b/c they thought it was unreasonable to expect that type of perfection.


 
So, if I understand you correctly,,,, if we don't agree that your way is better,,,, we don't know how to finish????

Just cause your in NYC don't mean alot to us ,,,, just saying !!!!!!!


----------



## Kiwiman

I get the impression paper and mesh users think their way is the best and you shouldn't use the other...I've spent many a year with both and can't see anything wrong with either of them if you know what you're doing. there's so many variables involved...quality of tape, type and quality of compound, substrate movement etc at the end of the day they both crack under the right circumstances, all though I'm not into debating the issue:gunsmilie:... if mesh cracks it tends to be hairline and less visible than papertape, which may not crack but push out a fine peak which is visible and has to be fixed anyway.


----------



## d-rock

Capt-sheetrock said:


> So, if I understand you correctly,,,, if we don't agree that your way is better,,,, we don't know how to finish????
> 
> Just cause your in NYC don't mean alot to us ,,,, just saying !!!!!!!


 You don't understand me correctly. I never said my way was better, I never even put a solid opinion forward about mesh or paper tape. I did say his experience was unsurpassed, I'm sure some of you have been doing this before I was born. Never the less, he (stilts) did say something to the affect that Minn ( i think) was a place where they knew quality better than anyone else. That's a bit pretentious. So I beg to differ. I never said anyone else does not know how to finish. However I've traveled to EVERY state in the continental U.S. and I've never seen standards like I've seen on some ultra high end jobs in NYC, L.A. and Miami. By the way I see you're from N.C., a state I very much enjoy. Great beaches !:thumbup:


----------



## robert seke

Hey Guys,

Anyone doing venetian plaster? I know its not that common, but in Europe we sell a lot of ultrafine discs for the P/C sander for this process. We have a 2 step system which consists of 600 grit and then 1200 grit which truly buffs a wall to a high gloss finish. Kamco Supply out in the New England States stocks it for this purpose. Just wondering if any of you are doing this....

Robert/Joest Abrasives


----------



## d-rock

robert seke said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Anyone doing venetian plaster? I know its not that common, but in Europe we sell a lot of ultrafine discs for the P/C sander for this process. We have a 2 step system which consists of 600 grit and then 1200 grit which truly buffs a wall to a high gloss finish. Kamco Supply out in the New England States stocks it for this purpose. Just wondering if any of you are doing this....
> 
> Robert/Joest Abrasives


We're doing it in NYC. We try not to buff with abrasives. we burnish with the trowel edge to create heat therefore shine. then we wax the walls for ultra shine. When you knock on the wall it should feel very hard, like a chalk board or a pane of glass.


----------



## robert seke

D-Rock,

This system is designed to go hand in hand with the P/C sander. It is not a labor intensive method as your troweling. It really buffs extremely quick. If you've ever heard of Tobias Stucco, Kamco Supply in your area recently tested our system with their line and they were amazed at the quick results. Hence, why Kamco is stocking it. If you indeed do work with these finishes, I would be happy to send you a free sample for your P/C.


----------



## d-rock

robert seke said:


> D-Rock,
> 
> This system is designed to go hand in hand with the P/C sander. It is not a labor intensive method as your troweling. It really buffs extremely quick. If you've ever heard of Tobias Stucco, Kamco Supply in your area recently tested our system with their line and they were amazed at the quick results. Hence, why Kamco is stocking it. If you indeed do work with these finishes, I would be happy to send you a free sample for your P/C.


 Yeah I know Kamco..PM me and let's check it out.


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## fenez

I am starting a venetian job on monday in rockville center, is the material acrylic or lime based?


----------



## d-rock

fenez said:


> I am starting a venetian job on monday in rockville center, is the material acrylic or lime based?


 Yo fen did you ever work for Island ADC ? just curious. we may know the same people.
I think his product is lime 'grasello' based.. I watched guys do some abbrasive sanding on marmarino walls. Came out like SH**


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## fenez

d rock..I just finished a job for fred partlow constr. he was a foreman for Island adc. but I have never worked for them. Sanding is never an option with venetian, I tried sanding it once and hated the outcome so I wouldn't do it again.


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## robert seke

Hi D-Rock,

I know sometimes when people don't have a proper system, it looks loke sh**. Please send me an email to [email protected] with your address and I'll send you a brochure and samples for your testing. Then you can tell me if it works great or not.. Remember, if conventional abrasives were used in the past, all ultra-fine grits load very quickly, thus unable to buff properly. Our foam backed discs, have an open web-like structure which absorbs the dust, thus allowing the disc to sand freely without loading. As I said, I am willing to put my $$$$ where my mouth is, send me your address and I'll get you product.

Rob


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## robert seke

Fenez,

PM your address and I'll send you samples as well.

Rob


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## LOU19604

PAPER VS MESH 
Heres what i was told 
Long before the dawn of mesh drywallers used paper tape, they mixed there own mud, they made there own tools and they took pride in there work the knowlege was passed down from generation to generation ,not just to anyone, but to real drywallers, guys that put 30 40 years into the business sanding was done by hand no machines no auto tapers . Now anyone can walk into lowes buy tools some mud and a few sheets then POOF they think they know drywall. WHY do we use tape 
cause thats how i was taught, thats how im gonna teach you so keep your mouth shut eyes open pay attention and maybe in about 10 years you might be good enough to be a real DRYWALLER. As told to me by Frank.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

LOU19604 said:


> PAPER VS MESH
> Heres what i was told
> Long before the dawn of mesh drywallers used paper tape, they mixed there own mud, they made there own tools and they took pride in there work the knowlege was passed down from generation to generation ,not just to anyone, but to real drywallers, guys that put 30 40 years into the business sanding was done by hand no machines no auto tapers . Now anyone can walk into lowes buy tools some mud and a few sheets then POOF they think they know drywall. WHY do we use tape
> cause thats how i was taught, thats how im gonna teach you so keep your mouth shut eyes open pay attention and maybe in about 10 years you might be good enough to be a real DRYWALLER. As told to me by Frank.


I have never met Frank,,, but he was RIGHT !!!!!


----------



## FibaFuse

silverstilts said:


> No sir I haven't, Is it even cost effective compared to a case of regular tape ?


 we are the makers of fibafuse. i can send you a few sample rolls if you like. the product retails for $3.50 - $5.00 per 250-ft roll. if interested, please send me your address.


----------



## Final touch drywall

*good topic*

I believe King of drywall knows his s#@$.:thumbup:
Mesh on flats & bead, paper on everything else.Fast set 90 on everything in the winter,finish with USG midweight.Flawless job & no cracking ever.
When the temps are above 50 we start to use USG green where all paper is used, but still use Fastset-90 on the flats & bead with the mesh.Love this combination.I'm not to into the tools.
This is a great discussion.


----------



## SkinnyVinny

LOU19604 said:


> PAPER VS MESH
> Heres what i was told
> Long before the dawn of mesh drywallers used paper tape, they mixed there own mud, they made there own tools and they took pride in there work the knowlege was passed down from generation to generation ,not just to anyone, but to real drywallers, guys that put 30 40 years into the business sanding was done by hand no machines no auto tapers . Now anyone can walk into lowes buy tools some mud and a few sheets then POOF they think they know drywall. WHY do we use tape
> cause thats how i was taught, thats how im gonna teach you so keep your mouth shut eyes open pay attention and maybe in about 10 years you might be good enough to be a real DRYWALLER. As told to me by Frank.



Very well said.... Could not agree more..


----------



## cazna

Winstone Wallboards recommends using paper tape.
This is what is printed on the tapered edges of our wallboard, they say there tests prove mesh does nothing, no strength to the joins at all so dont use it. I have never used it and till i see proof otherwise im not going to. I have had to fix cracks from mesh use before but i had to fix a few of my own paper tape cracks in a new house too. The house was built in wet winter then lined as soon as the moisture content was 16% and summer came heated the house up and finished drying the timber and crack. So sometimes it dosnt matter what you do, **** will happen.


----------



## pipercub17

all the guys ouy there that use mesh should try fiba fuse its great stuff
can even run it through the auto taper and it also can be used in corners
:thumbsup:


----------



## cazna

At long last :thumbup::thumbup: this stuff looks like a dream come true, cant wait to try it but will prob take a while to get to nz.

http://www.drywallzone.com/fibafuse-paperless-drywall-joint-tape.html


----------



## FibaFuse

cazna said:


> At long last :thumbup::thumbup: this stuff looks like a dream come true, cant wait to try it but will prob take a while to get to nz.
> 
> http://www.drywallzone.com/fibafuse-paperless-drywall-joint-tape.html


Cazna, today is your lucky day! FibaFuse is now available in NZ through Manners Building Products. Here is a local contact name for you at Manners...

Kerry 
Manners Building Products Ltd.
2E Rothwell Ave. Albany.
New Zealand.
Email [email protected]
Phone 64 9 415 7488


----------



## FibaFuse

cazna said:


> Winstone Wallboards recommends using paper tape.
> This is what is printed on the tapered edges of our wallboard, they say there tests prove mesh does nothing, no strength to the joins at all so dont use it. I have never used it and till i see proof otherwise im not going to. I have had to fix cracks from mesh use before but i had to fix a few of my own paper tape cracks in a new house too. The house was built in wet winter then lined as soon as the moisture content was 16% and summer came heated the house up and finished drying the timber and crack. So sometimes it dosnt matter what you do, **** will happen.


Cazna, I am also working with the technical team Winstone Wallboards in NZ on FibaFuse. They still need to qualify but I believe they will bring FibaFuse in as well. Will keep you posted.


----------



## mudslingercor

Surprised that you guys can go on about paper vs mesh for that long. It's really a simple answer Mesh = Cracks. Any experienced taper will say use paper, those who appose this comment TO ME your credibility as a pro taper is in question.


----------



## Kiwiman

FibaFuse said:


> Cazna, I am also working with the technical team Winstone Wallboards in NZ on FibaFuse. They still need to qualify but I believe they will bring FibaFuse in as well. Will keep you posted.


 I hope you succeed Tom, Winstones will be a tough nut to crack but if they can prove fibafuse is stronger than paper then that would be good enough for me :thumbsup:. It would be good to see more comments from fibafuse users on crack resistance and strength rather than what it's like to apply or how to run it in a bazooka etc.


----------



## cazna

FibaFuse said:


> Cazna, today is your lucky day! FibaFuse is now available in NZ through Manners Building Products. Here is a local contact name for you at Manners...
> 
> Kerry
> Manners Building Products Ltd.
> 2E Rothwell Ave. Albany.
> New Zealand.
> Email [email protected]
> Phone 64 9 415 7488


 
Oh hell yes bring it on, im checking up on that this morn asap. Its not that i cant use paper tape i have been using it for 15years but come on!! its 2010 can we move on to some thing more advanced than paper.

And yes kiwiman winstones will be tough to persuade, they want to remain in 1960. They dont listen, they pretend to interested but how is it when your talk to there reps about different plasters and how they perform they stand there with a blank look on there face and say ( there is no use in talking to me about plasters, i have never mixed or used a bucket full in my life) And they fly them around the country, pay for rental cars,motels,resturants for them to show up on site and say this to you?? The boards high shoulders are getting worse, the core plaster is inconsistant, soft as sometimes, and have i mentioned those braceline screws??? Poxy dam things.
Anyway 3 Cheers for someone trying to improve on paper tape, look forward to trying it out.


----------



## pipercub17

i did some stress tests on some board tonight, that i used fiba fuse on .
i beat on the seams with a rubber hammer and the only damage was to the boards! the tape held up with no cracks :thumbsup: mind you still havent tested it out on any corners yet


----------



## FOR THOSE ABOUT

Just got a chance to use the fiba fuse. Nice stuff. Did not encounter the falling apart issue I have read about in other posts. Did not have to use trimtex glue or anything else other than the product straight off the roll. I have not had the opportunity to run it thru the tube or even a banjo at this point but I am looking forward to that as well. Thanks Tom, great product.


----------



## Mudshark

*fan of paper tapes*

well well - lots of opposing opinions.

My two bits worth says paper for everything - keep a part roll of mesh in job box but it never gets used. Paper is the only way to go for bazooka and corners and has proven itself for several miles of flats. As for patch jobs, confill and paper tape. Sometimes double up on paper tape when patching broken board etc. The little I have used mesh, dont like the way it "floats" around and goes out of square. 

Seems like on Vancouver Island paper tape is for the professionals and mesh tape is for the home handyman.


----------



## FOR THOSE ABOUT

I am a completely NO MESH guy in the angles and I don't use a whole lot of the stuff period. I have not tried the FIBA FUSE in the angles yet, but will to see how crisp the line is. I prefer the materal of the fuse vs. the mesh. Also good when doing bathroom remodels as I will use it not only on rock but on durock with thinset and with vinyl bead.


----------



## DSJOHN

I,m not sure if Mudshark realizes what the fibafuse is,its not fiberglass. Ive been repairing different things with Nu-Wall fiberglass for years now and small butt joints [headers] I use it,I just got a roll of fibafuse this week will try some and give some feedback. My apologies if I misunderstood. DSJOHN


----------



## pipercub17

fibafuse is fiber glass just weaved more like paper tape


----------



## FibaFuse

pipercub17 said:


> fibafuse is fiber glass just weaved more like paper tape


Yes, FibaFuse a non-woven fabric made from fiberglass filaments; the process to make fibafuse is very similar to paper except the use of fiberglass filameents instead of cellulose fibers.


----------



## Kiwiman

FibaFuse said:


> Yes, FibaFuse a non-woven fabric made from fiberglass filaments; the process to make fibafuse is very similar to paper except the use of fiberglass filameents instead of cellulose fibers.


Gidday Tom, if the topcoat is over sanded do you get raised fibre's from the tape showing? (like papertape does). Fibafuse is due here in the next week or two so looking forward to giving it a try.:thumbsup:


----------



## FOR THOSE ABOUT

Leave some mud on those walls  That's not a problem with tape (whatever kind you use) thats a problem with the person on the other end of the stick


----------



## rhardman

*Hmmmmm...*



mudslingercor said:


> Surprised that you guys can go on about paper vs mesh for that long. It's really a simple answer Mesh = Cracks. Any experienced taper will say use paper, those who appose this comment TO ME your credibility as a pro taper is in question.


 
3 Room Remodel: Mask windows and doors then glass the seams and banjo the angles with paper.* Use 90% hot mud (hamiltons 90 or equiv.) add 10% PofP using cool clean water for banjo angles and seams. Box out and finish angles (one coat). Tight skim the butts (second coat) and first coat the screws with the same mud. Water trowel the imperfections and light touch up. Shoot lid with brocaid or lighter knockdown then orange peel/spatter the walls. 

Clean everything up and out by 5:00 the same day.
Been there, done that, again and again and again...
Not a single call back in nearly 20 years.

Mesh has it's place, obviously it's not for everyone. 

For smooth finish, tight skim everything and second coat the screws on the first day. Light sand the second day. 

*(There's a way to glass the angles for production work but that's another thread.)

*Update:* It's debatable as to whether you need the automatic tools or not. If you do use them, set them for no shrinkage whatsoever. And when you tight skim, do it by hand with a 12.
It would be fun to see if you could banjo the angles with this mixture and FibaFuse.


----------



## mudslingercor

Rhardman well what can I say...It was nice to know ya, didn't know you were from the darkside of taping. 20 years ouch I would have expected max 5 years working alone a taper would figure it all out. It's OK buddy your just old school I understand. Glad it works for you:thumbsup:


----------



## rhardman

*"Old School?"*



mudslingercor said:


> Rhardman well what can I say...It was nice to know ya, didn't know you were from the darkside of taping. 20 years ouch I would have expected max 5 years working alone a taper would figure it all out. It's OK buddy your just old school I understand. Glad it works for you:thumbsup:


Oh sir,

How am I to respond to this? You've challenged me which I respect, but 
you've also backed me into a corner not being able to share the things I know. You see, for I am a fortune teller and I think I can see into the future! :whistling2:

So I'll eat my humble pie for now and wish you the best. :thumbsup:

Rick


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

mudslingercor said:


> Rhardman well what can I say...It was nice to know ya, didn't know you were from the darkside of taping. 20 years ouch I would have expected max 5 years working alone a taper would figure it all out. It's OK buddy your just old school I understand. Glad it works for you:thumbsup:


What are you trying to say???? Have you got an opinion???? or just an attitude???


----------



## DSJOHN

Papertape for 31 years, try some fibafuse on a repair or header butt or one ceiling job then give your replies thats just my opinion, JOHN


----------



## mudslingercor

Relax Captian just dry humor with a bit of attitude. I also stated my opinion previously in this thread. I'll reiterate MY OPINION .I've fixed a lot of other tapers work and seen first hand plenty of crack from using mesh and after 15 years of steady taping I have developed a hatred for mesh. If Rhardman has found a use that work good on him. Probably the skills he developed over 20 years has something to do with it. I personally equivalate mesh with DYI er's and the inexperienced. Rhardman I was just poken a little and would expected the same back no disrespect to a real taper making mesh work for them.


----------



## rhardman

*We're just playin'*



mudslingercor said:


> ..... Rhardman I was just poken a little and would expected the same back no disrespect to a real taper making mesh work for them.


I respect a good "pop" once in a while. :thumbup:
On another thread I've designed some tools that are being tested. One guy called me up about my mesh taper and was all happy and excited but when it came to publicizing his opinion, he was a bit critical so I'm very familiar with the paper/mesh debate and the trials of trying to introduce new ideas. I was in the shadows watching this thread happy just to listen until you made the comment,"Any experienced taper will say use paper, those who appose this comment TO ME your credibility as a pro taper is in question"

I just had to say something...

As far as my fortune telling comment, that's regarding our new website coming out June 1. This thread is not about those tools and it's not about anything but mesh vs paper so I don't want to confuse things.

Just want to say thanks for the hit. *IIIIIII Like iT!* :tt2::gunsmilie::bangin::2guns:


----------



## FOR THOSE ABOUT

DSJOHN said:


> Papertape for 31 years, try some fibafuse on a repair or header butt or one ceiling job then give your replies thats just my opinion, JOHN


DITTO...Main reason I even carry mesh around, is that I happen to do alot of bathroom new and reno and its used on the durock...I do like the fuse. Anyone who has not tried it yet but is planning on it don't try and run it like your pushing full strength thru regular tape not needed. Think that may be why some folks had a falling apart issue.


----------



## Kiwiman

I think the funniest thing about the paper v mesh debate is how adamant pro paper users are that mesh doesn't work, they take it so serious like they are fighting for their country, personally I think paper works and always has done and if mesh works for you then thats just dandy. Just remember... fixing someone elses cracks is money in your bank...Not something I moan about too often. Keep poking each other in the ribs coz it's always fun to read :boxing:


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

mudslingercor said:


> Relax Captian just dry humor with a bit of attitude. I also stated my opinion previously in this thread. I'll reiterate MY OPINION .I've fixed a lot of other tapers work and seen first hand plenty of crack from using mesh and after 15 years of steady taping I have developed a hatred for mesh. If Rhardman has found a use that work good on him. Probably the skills he developed over 20 years has something to do with it. I personally equivalate mesh with DYI er's and the inexperienced. Rhardman I was just poken a little and would expected the same back no disrespect to a real taper making mesh work for them.


Sorry man, I've been under terrible terrible stress at work,,,,,, I'm a Toyota salesman


----------



## mudslingercor

No worries Capt it's all good


----------



## betterdrywall

That mesh is kinda sticky ,, and if your not careful it will rip the hairs right out of your butt crack,,,, may leave a rash as well... on the other hand paper is just too thick.. doesn't pick up too well so ya gotta check for smears Ok I'll put in a smilie face you can put all kinds of smilies at this place. :thumbup: Think this is alittle nicer place.


----------



## Mudstar

Seen a house today with mesh. The home owner said it was finished 10 years ago and just started cracking this year. They where thinking it was, and blaming it on the harsh weather in the past year. I told them it was the wrong way to do it period. Every joint was cracked. I'm convinced mesh does not work and always did but this thread almost made me think of trying it. Not now!


----------



## betterdrywall

MudStar,,, it is How the stuff is applied.. I have used it in the past on temp walls and emergency last minute room additions that needed to be finished quick. Like I have always said there is a use for everything,, and some stuff works while others don't. You can use the mesh for pre-fill, works great for that,,, patch work,,, use it all the time... you can even lay it on and apply paper tape with a bazooka right over the top if it.. there is all kinds of things you can do with mesh,,,, but there is nothing you can do with a ButtTaper except cut pizza with it. :thumbup:


----------



## Mudstar

Application does not change the strength of a product used to join two sheets of rock.
Mesh has no strength changes to its characteristics when adding a compound to it and as far as chemistry is concerned except for it own hardness and strength. It may offer a small amount of support to the compound but is still has to be independent from of mesh as its sole strength in joining of the rock. 

Now for using paper by adding a compound which allows absorbency into the paper, changing its characteristics making it some what stronger then its original state. As well as physically joining two pieces of rock at the same time and offering more movement with out cracking does not compare to mesh and setting type compound that takes up the same space as the paper tapping method. 

Since this setting type compound is harder then paper tape compound with less absorbency with the mesh there is more likely a chance to cracking which I just witnessed as if you try and push a knife into you will see its not very soft with no flexability which is required in today's building methods 

Also this setting type compounds do not absorb into paper very well and sit on the surface and can be peeled and or chipped off the wall. Does tapping compound. I don't think so, it sticks like glue and can not be peeled well all know this.

Leading me to say that there's no way that mesh and setting compounds are stronger then tapping with paper and the proper compound for tapping in the first place

Its a expensive way to progress a job faster with the same application time and no more money in your pocket 

Don't fool yourself that mesh is better. That's a lot of BS 

PS

And for pre fillling and taping over mesh with paper just double up your paper. with te proper compound its sticks way better.


----------



## Tim0282

It's not better to be faster using the setting type mud. I sure feel it is better to use the drying type and let it dry! Don't coat wet mud. Does absolutely no good. Just causes grief. Paper and bucket (or box) mud gives a longer lasting job. Less chance of cracks.


----------



## kgphoto

Mudstar said:


> Mesh has no strength changes to its characteristics when adding a compound to it and as far as chemistry is concerned except for it own hardness and strength.
> 
> Now for using paper by adding a compound which allows absorbency into the paper, changing its characteristics making it some what stronger then its original state. As well as physically joining two pieces of rock at the same time and offering more movement with out cracking does not compare to mesh and setting type compound that takes up the same space as the paper tapping method.
> 
> Also this setting type compounds do not absorb into paper very well and sit on the surface and can be peeled and or chipped off the wall. Does tapping compound. I don't think so, it sticks like glue and can not be peeled well all know this.
> 
> Its a expensive way to progress a job faster with the same application time and no more money in your pocket


Mudstar

Two boards joined by screws on the same studs, you think that the use of this mud or that mud is going to make that joint strong as or stronger than the board and that the board is even able to withstand the stresses of the building?

Look at the corner cracks at windows in both the drywall and the stucco. That is pretty hard stuff and it still breaks. Mesh needs setting mud and then it is perfectly acceptable for taping. Many jobs last forever this way. Those that crack are mostly set with GP mud (wrong) or subject to very unusual stresses.

You can pull off whole lengths of paper tape with GP mud IF it was installed incorrectly, the same way you can paper tape with hot mud or mesh with hot mud. In fact it is easier to pull the mesh, because it has MORE tensile strength than paper. Those types of stresses are rarely put on the these joints, however.

GP and paper joints are also more susceptible to water damage compared to hot mud.

So the speed afforded by mesh tape and hot mud saves you a day or two on a typical job, and that translates to money saved. So when it makes sense on the size and scope job, it is a perfectly valid choice. Not for everybody and not for every job.



betterdrywall said:


> ,,,, but there is nothing you can do with a ButtTaper except cut pizza with it. :thumbup:


Well you obviously missed the moose skinning pictures.


----------



## cazna

Very interesting points you make chaps, I was going to do my next house with fibafuse for the flats/butts and paper for the corners, i have used a little fibafuse and am very impressed with its strength.
Just wondering if anyone has found any concerns with fibafuse yet? I cant see any, I taped up some off cuts with paper and fuse and then pulled and twisted it apart, the fibafuse made paper look silly?


----------



## Mudstar

kgphoto said:


> Mudstar
> 
> _Look at the corner cracks at windows in both the drywall and the stucco. That is pretty hard stuff and it still breaks. Mesh needs setting mud and then it is perfectly acceptable for taping.
> _ _
> You missed the point kgphoto about working with more flexable product won't crack and that's not setting type or hot mud to tape with.
> 
> So the speed afforded by mesh tape and hot mud saves you a day or two on a typical job, and that translates to money saved. So when it makes sense on the size and scope job, it is a perfectly valid choice. Not for everybody and not for every job.
> 
> You also missed the point about application time and your saying you can physically apply mesh tape and setting type faster the the proper method that is more flexible and for sure is faster to apply paper method. You are dead wrong. While your mixing up your setting type compound in batches because you have setting times to worry about the compound I'm using comes pre mixed. Looks like your spending more time there. Second, the time you are mixing, I'm filing my bazooka. Still faster to fill then mix. Third, with my bazooka filled and you have your compound all mixed up ready to apply by hand along with your mesh tape I run down the wall with my bazooka applying mud and tape at the same time while your putting on your mesh tape with out the mud. I'm sure I can apply the tape coming out of my bazooka faster then applying mesh tape and loading the setting type compound by hand.
> 
> You my freind would not be able to physical apply the mesh tape method faster then I could with the paper method hands down. _
> 
> 
> Well you obviously missed the moose skinning pictures.


That how serious you learned how to do the proper job. You where looking at the moose skinning pics


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> Mudstar
> 
> So the speed afforded by mesh tape and hot mud saves you a day or two on a typical job, and that translates to money saved. So when it makes sense on the size and scope job, it is a perfectly valid choice. Not for everybody and not for every job.
> 
> 
> 
> Well you obviously missed the moose skinning pictures.


If you think that screwing someones house up is perfectly okay,,,, IF you put a few dollars in your pocket. 

You sir, are a HACK and CHEAT


----------



## kgphoto

Originally Posted by *kgphoto*  
_Mudstar

Look at the corner cracks at windows in both the drywall and the stucco. That is pretty hard stuff and it still breaks. Mesh needs setting mud and then it is perfectly acceptable for taping.
 
You missed the point kgphoto about working with more flexable product won't crack and that's not setting type or hot mud to tape with.

So the speed afforded by mesh tape and hot mud saves you a day or two on a typical job, and that translates to money saved. So when it makes sense on the size and scope job, it is a perfectly valid choice. Not for everybody and not for every job.

You also missed the point about application time and your saying you can physically apply mesh tape and setting type faster the the proper method that is more flexible and for sure is faster to apply paper method. You are dead wrong. While your mixing up your setting type compound in batches because you have setting times to worry about the compound I'm using comes pre mixed. Looks like your spending more time there. Second, the time you are mixing, I'm filing my bazooka. Still faster to fill then mix. Third, with my bazooka filled and you have your compound all mixed up ready to apply by hand along with your mesh tape I run down the wall with my bazooka applying mud and tape at the same time while your putting on your mesh tape with out the mud. I'm sure I can apply the tape coming out of my bazooka faster then applying mesh tape and loading the setting type compound by hand. 

You my freind would not be able to physical apply the mesh tape method faster then I could with the paper method hands down.  
 

Well you obviously missed the moose skinning pictures. _




Mudstar said:


> That how serious you learned how to do the proper job. You where looking at the moose skinning pics


Mudstar,

I got your point about your belief that you need the flexibility of the mud. I disagree with it.

Remember there is more than one type (speed) of setting mud, so you can load your bazooka with that, if you want and then when you finish, clean and mix your next 5 gallons and go on to the second coat.

Of if the house is big enough, and you only have time for one coat, then it will definitely be ready for the second coat the next day, regardless of temperature and humidity.

If you are taping in a dry heat, then just use GP and do it the regular way. I said, it is not for all people or all jobs. 

Smaller jobs you can make 1-5 gallons up, depending on the size as I am sure you blend your GP with a mixer before you load your bazooka, so there isn't much more time used.

As to you and me in a race, I guess we will never know, but I bet you can go faster as this is something you do day in and day out. I work in mixed trades, so probably am not as fast as you. I am OK with that. I can save time by getting another coat on in a day, than I can with GP and I am OK with that too.

I frequently have additional work from my clients, so get to see that the my seams and joints are not cracking over the years, even after a few California earthquakes and aftershocks. So I am confident that it works well. Certainly the big shakers make some cracks, but that is all through the house and sometimes not even the areas I have repaired, but new locations.

EDIT: By the way mesh is more flexible than paper and it doesn't work well in GP mud in these applications.


----------



## kgphoto

Capt-sheetrock said:


> If you think that screwing someones house up is perfectly okay,,,, IF you put a few dollars in your pocket.
> 
> You sir, are a HACK and CHEAT


And you again are talking out of your a**. No ones house is getting screwed up ( see the above post). You just got a problem and want to attack me for your own insecurities. 

Try to be more like the rest of us and offer constructive comments, if you disagree. Mudstar and I don't have to resort to name calling even if we don't agree with one another.

This is a thread on mesh/paper. I know I repaired lots of cracking corner bead after the Northridge Earthquake in 94, and I do it with mesh bedded in hot mud. I go back to these houses all the time and the corners I have fixed this way, haven't cracked yet.

Cracks in the corners of door ways, I have taped with both paper and mesh, GP and hot mud respectively and most haven't cracked. Most of the mesh tape cracks I have come across were because the original guys used GP. You hear about it all the time on all the forums. They don't read the directions and they don't get good results, but they blame the material. Just plain silly.


----------



## Axecutioner-B

"Mesh V. Paper" debate is the gift that keeps on giving 
________
Glass Weed Pipe


----------



## Mudstar

Number one in replys at 161 replys I guess your right sorry 162 now

:drink:


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> And you again are talking out of your a**. No ones house is getting screwed up ( see the above post). You just got a problem and want to attack me for your own insecurities.
> 
> Try to be more like the rest of us and offer constructive comments, if you disagree. Mudstar and I don't have to resort to name calling even if we don't agree with one another.
> 
> This is a thread on mesh/paper. I know I repaired lots of cracking corner bead after the Northridge Earthquake in 94, and I do it with mesh bedded in hot mud. I go back to these houses all the time and the corners I have fixed this way, haven't cracked yet.
> 
> Cracks in the corners of door ways, I have taped with both paper and mesh, GP and hot mud respectively and most haven't cracked. Most of the mesh tape cracks I have come across were because the original guys used GP. You hear about it all the time on all the forums. They don't read the directions and they don't get good results, but they blame the material. Just plain silly.


And I guess a guy that does like 30 boards a year, knows the answer???? Is that right???? So your gonna try to tell people that do it for a living, how its done???

KG, your a hack, nuff said


----------



## Kiwiman

Mudstar said:


> Number one in replys at 161 replys I guess your right sorry 162 now
> 
> :drink:


Nuh uh!...I think our friend Rick might hold the record at 244 replies for "need help testing new tools".
Now where were we...KG I think it's your shot:boxing:, Capt just gave a right upper cut and a left jab to the nose, keep your gloves up and bob and weave. Ding!


----------



## betterdrywall

I am in no way saying mesh is stronger than paper, Paper tape will always be the best to use. proper application of the mesh will help to a degree for strength.


----------



## kgphoto

Kiwiman said:


> Nuh uh!...I think our friend Rick might hold the record at 244 replies for "need help testing new tools".
> Now where were we...KG I think it's your shot:boxing:, Capt just gave a right upper cut and a left jab to the nose, keep your gloves up and bob and weave. Ding!


Nah, my previous post covers it. He didn't add anything new. I support my claims. His concern is since I don't do tons of drywall work, then I can't possibly know anything. It is important to not confuse 20 years of experience to 1 year of experience, repeated 19 times.


----------



## kgphoto

betterdrywall said:


> I am in no way saying mesh is stronger than paper, Paper tape will always be the best to use. proper application of the mesh will help to a degree for strength.


It kinda depends on how you are measuring strength. Try to tear mesh tape with your hands. Hard to do. It does deform if pulled on the bias. Fiba Fuse does not, so it may be an ideal substitute for buts and tapers. In corners it is easier to tear, but we can learn around that.


----------



## Mudstar

kgphoto said:


> Nah, my previous post covers it. He didn't add anything new. I support my claims. His concern is since I don't do tons of drywall work, then I can't possibly know anything. It is important to not confuse 20 years of experience to 1 year of experience, repeated 19 times.


Its not years you count experience in drywall anyway kg..... mileage in tape is, or square feet grasshopper


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

I have spent so much time fixing cracked joints from mesh, that I wonder why anyone would take the chance of haveing that on their resume??

I just don't bother using anything that "may or may-not work", ya know, when their are products out there that WILL work.

Thats how I base my desision anyway. 

By not using mesh, no-one has ever came behind me to fix a cracked mesh joint.


----------



## betterdrywall

kgphoto said:


> It kinda depends on how you are measuring strength. Try to tear mesh tape with your hands. Hard to do. It does deform if pulled on the bias. Fiba Fuse does not, so it may be an ideal substitute for buts and tapers. In corners it is easier to tear, but we can learn around that.


 You maybe the one that needs the learning,, not me,, My last post was a final on the topic, not the beginning of a new debate. 
KG, I can tell you something right now,,, and it is very true,,, I don't care what tape it is you are wanting to use,,,, and I don't care how long you have been using it,,,, I will SCHOOL YOU anyday of the week,OK?? So until you can keep up behind my bazooka wiping down the paper tape, the way I want it done with a clean 6 inch knife,,, then until that time comes you need to just kick back and learn ! Keep in mind this place has alot of Pro's that can apply a case or two of tape in a days time... Not no play ground for part time wannabe drywaller,, I put up with your crap at JLC,, not going to put up with it at all here , so take a ride ..


----------



## d-rock

even though fiberglass mesh is stronger than paper tape, paper tape is more stable. Mesh has too much flex for seams so it'll crack. Paper is always better. We use mesh only on the corner beads, and we keep it back away from the actual edge of the bead. It helps to prevent hairline cracks. If i caught a guy on my job using mesh tape on the regular joints, i would bounce him.


----------



## alltex

Can,t see it from my house


----------



## rhardman

Kiwiman said:


> Nuh uh!...I think our friend Rick might hold the record at 244 replies for "need help testing new tools"....


_I want no part of this debate...._:blink:

I will just say that the USG handbook only recommends glass with setting compounds. See below:

http://www.usg.com/rc/data-submittal-sheets/tapes/joint-tapes-industrial-construction-data-MH1178.pdf









I'm heading back into the shadows now...:batman:
http://www.usg.com/rc/data-submitta...tapes-industrial-construction-data-MH1178.pdf


----------



## cazna

Will fibafuse flex and crack as mesh does???


----------



## Kiwiman

Ding Ding! Back to your corners lads and get ready for round 2....Paper v Fibafuse.:whistling2:


----------



## cazna

Kiwiman said:


> Ding Ding! Back to your corners lads and get ready for round 2....Paper v Fibafuse.:whistling2:


 
Yeah Bring it on, Fight Fight Fight, ding ding ding.

My vote is fibafuse for flats/butts and paper for corners, but sorry i have no big long drawn out reason, fibafuse seems stronger and is much easier to use and i want some thoughts against, come on chaps ding ding im calling you out (but prob wont hack the pace) but what the hell, i want to learn :thumbsup: and make life easier, Im not as young dumb and full of cum as i use to be (well the young and dumb part anyway)


----------



## Axecutioner-B

how does fibafuse compare to paper in cost?
________
Web Shows


----------



## cazna

In NZ paper is about $6 a roll and fibafuse is about $15, i think its well worth the cost. Its faster to use than paper so you earn more on time.


----------



## Mudstar

cazna said:


> Yeah Bring it on, Fight Fight Fight, ding ding ding.
> 
> My vote is fibafuse for flats/butts and paper for corners, but sorry i have no big long drawn out reason, fibafuse seems stronger and is much easier to use and i want some thoughts against, come on chaps ding ding im calling you out (but prob wont hack the pace) but what the hell, i want to learn :thumbsup: and make life easier, Im not as young dumb and full of cum as i use to be (well the young and dumb part anyway)


This is a mesh vs paper debate

Start a new thread on fibafuse and its use has not been around long enough even to compare


----------



## kgphoto

Mudstar said:


> Its not years you count experience in drywall anyway kg..... mileage in tape is, or square feet grasshopper


You may very well be right, or it could be that same analogy of 1 year repeated 19 times, just with feet of tape substituted.

There are new tools, materials and methods introduced over the years. We need to not be afraid to test them out and adopt the one that improve our jobs and our work.


----------



## kgphoto

rhardman said:


> _I want no part of this debate...._:blink:
> 
> I will just say that the USG handbook only recommends glass with setting compounds. See below:
> 
> http://www.usg.com/rc/data-submittal-sheets/tapes/joint-tapes-industrial-construction-data-MH1178.pdf
> 
> View attachment 238
> 
> 
> I'm heading back into the shadows now...:batman:


we covered that point earlier. The only reason I mentioned using it with GP was to address the idea that a more "flexible" joint method would work better, which as far as any tape and mud goes, I don't think it will work.

You can use those rubber hinged tapes, but I don't like the look. I would prefer to isolate the drywall from the framing by floating or using a product like X-Crack from Strait-Flex.


----------



## Mudstar

kgphoto said:


> we covered that point earlier. The only reason I mentioned using it with GP was to address the idea that a more "flexible" joint method would work better, which as far as any tape and mud goes, I don't think it will work.
> 
> You can use those rubber hinged tapes, but I don't like the look. I would prefer to isolate the drywall from the framing by floating or using a product like X-Crack from Strait-Flex.


Its funny that you choose methods that have no proven time behind there product. Does that mean the same for your experience. 

As well you contradicted yourself on the flexibility issue 

Just sayin


----------



## kgphoto

betterdrywall said:


> You maybe the one that needs the learning,, not me,, My last post was a final on the topic, not the beginning of a new debate.
> KG, I can tell you something right now,,, and it is very true,,, I don't care what tape it is you are wanting to use,,,, and I don't care how long you have been using it,,,, I will SCHOOL YOU anyday of the week,OK?? So until you can keep up behind my bazooka wiping down the paper tape, the way I want it done with a clean 6 inch knife,,, then until that time comes you need to just kick back and learn ! Keep in mind this place has alot of Pro's that can apply a case or two of tape in a days time... Not no play ground for part time wannabe drywaller,, I put up with your crap at JLC,, not going to put up with it at all here , so take a ride ..


My comment about the mesh being stronger wasn't a debate point. It was an illustration as to even though the specific properties of various materials my be "stronger" that doesn't necessarily mean one product is better suited to a specific application.

I am happy to learn anything that you care to teach, but realize that I won't accept everything you say as if it were gospel, nor would I expect you or anyone to do it from me. Check out the backing information and try it yourself. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Those guys who put up 2-3 cases of tape a day, probably use auto tools? How is that a far comparison or even relevant to whether or not a quality job is being done? It certainly is more efficient for larger jobs, but does it really make a difference quality wise?


----------



## kgphoto

Mudstar said:


> Its funny that you choose methods that have no proven time behind there product. Does that mean the same for your experience.
> 
> As well you contradicted yourself on the flexibility issue
> 
> Just sayin


Define "no Proven Time".

And please elaborate on the contradiction.

This isn't meant to be an argument, just a discussion. If you prefer to talk rather than write, we can do this on the phone. I know sometimes it is laborious to type out all ones thoughts.


----------



## Mudstar

Tim0282 said:


> And how long have you been in the Biz, Oh Mr. Great Mud Wrestler?
> Still use a hawk and trowel, and is your hawk an old piece of plywood, still use a pan and knife, still use a compressor and hopper?? Do you use an old 2x4 for stilts, or solid steel, one peg bolt your own shoes on...? Isn't there room for improvement? And a guy that has been in the BIZ for multiple years is the guy that can make a "better" tool. Not usually the guy that sits behind a desk and draws stuff on paper and says "this will work".


 Well there are people that like to lie about there experience to gain popularity amongst the experience to learn whats right and whats wrong and I have no discrepancy in regard to that. They will learn like I had too. 

Since I've been in it since 1984 not using the years to gauge what I know but its what I have done and seen done by others I work with give me the experience and I have not changed the methods of application but only up graded the tools to do the same job at a faster rate.

I have run and owned a couple businesses in the construction industry and have had several employees over this time. I know what works and what does not work. I'm not blowing hot air out of my a$$ ether. 

The people that use this forum know by the post of others who really knows what there talking about because there experience in this trade so with that said we all know where we stand


----------



## Mudstar

kgphoto said:


> Define "no Proven Time".
> 
> And please elaborate on the contradiction.
> 
> This isn't meant to be an argument, just a discussion. If you prefer to talk rather than write, we can do this on the phone. I know sometimes it is laborious to type out all ones thoughts.



sorry my mistake I was thinking you stated that flexibility was better in your last statement


----------



## kgphoto

No problem. It happens. I appreciate that you didn't fly off the handle when you misunderstood, or disagreed.


----------



## betterdrywall

My comment about the mesh being stronger wasn't a debate point. It was an illustration as to even though the specific properties of various materials my be "stronger" that doesn't necessarily mean one product is better suited to a specific application. 

A repeat of what I said before.

I am happy to learn anything that you care to teach, but realize that I won't accept everything you say as if it were gospel, nor would I expect you or anyone to do it from me. Check out the backing information and try it yourself. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Typical egotistical azz coment


Those guys who put up 2-3 cases of tape a day, probably use auto tools? How is that a far comparison or even relevant to whether or not a quality job is being done? It certainly is more efficient for larger jobs, but does it really make a difference quality wise? 

This is the same as trying to compare a 150 hp KIA to a 350 HP Ford Mustang and trying to tell everyone there both the same. Kirk you will always be that little KIA that could go TOOT TOOT


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> No problem. It happens. I appreciate that you didn't fly off the handle when you misunderstood, or disagreed.


Kirk, I think you missed the point,,,,

If I read it correctly, he was dissin ya, not apoligizing :thumbsup:


----------



## kgphoto

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Kirk, I think you missed the point,,,,
> 
> If I read it correctly, he was dissin ya, not apoligizing :thumbsup:


I don't think I did, but if so, he was being very obtuse.


----------



## kgphoto

betterdrywall said:


> My comment about the mesh being stronger wasn't a debate point. It was an illustration as to even though the specific properties of various materials my be "stronger" that doesn't necessarily mean one product is better suited to a specific application.
> 
> A repeat of what I said before.
> 
> I am happy to learn anything that you care to teach, but realize that I won't accept everything you say as if it were gospel, nor would I expect you or anyone to do it from me. Check out the backing information and try it yourself. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> Typical egotistical azz coment
> 
> 
> Those guys who put up 2-3 cases of tape a day, probably use auto tools? How is that a far comparison or even relevant to whether or not a quality job is being done? It certainly is more efficient for larger jobs, but does it really make a difference quality wise?
> 
> This is the same as trying to compare a 150 hp KIA to a 350 HP Ford Mustang and trying to tell everyone there both the same. Kirk you will always be that little KIA that could go TOOT TOOT


I think you missed the point and are being very defensive. Clearly, by your own posts, you use both old and new methods and tools. So why is it OK when you say it, and not OK when I do? What changes the information?


----------



## mudslingercor

I'm confused is this about paper vs mesh or freaking fibafuse. Stay on topic it gets way to annoying reading your guys bull#$%@


----------



## alltex

who gives a F&%#


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

mudslingercor said:


> I'm confused is this about paper vs mesh or freaking fibafuse. Stay on topic it gets way to annoying reading your guys bull#$%@


Just hang in there,,, you'll figure it out. KG is a troll that just wants to destroy thread after thread. :thumbsup:


----------



## DSJOHN

Well said Capt!!!! JOHN


----------



## kgphoto

How do any of my comments "destroy this thread"? I mean come on guys. Exaggerate much? I haven't attacked anyone's beliefs, system or upbringing.


----------



## rebel20

I find it interessting that this thread has been going on for 2 years and everyone is still trying to decide which is better Mesh or Paper. Seems all have there own preferences. Mine neither of the above. TMO

Rebel


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

*A*



rebel20 said:


> I find it interessting that this thread has been going on for 2 years and everyone is still trying to decide which is better Mesh or Paper. Seems all have there own preferences. Mine neither of the above. TMO
> 
> Rebel


I think you missed the point. 

It was, as you said, a debate over mesh and paper,,,,,,,, 

untill KG entered it. He is a troll, and his only intent is to destroy a forum. His track record speaks for itself, just check out JLC forum,,,, you don't have to check it more than once a week tho. Since they have no MOD, KG controls it. I am SO GLAD THAT THIS SITE HAS A MOD.

NUFF SAID


----------



## kgphoto

Farcical Captn.


----------



## rebel20

*A*



Capt-sheetrock said:


> I think you missed the point.
> 
> It was, as you said, a debate over mesh and paper,,,,,,,,
> 
> untill KG entered it. He is a troll, and his only intent is to destroy a forum. His track record speaks for itself, just check out JLC forum,,,, you don't have to check it more than once a week tho. Since they have no MOD, KG controls it. I am SO GLAD THAT THIS SITE HAS A MOD.
> 
> NUFF SAID


Capt'n
I got the point I was on JLC exactly 3 times. I was stating a fact and found it interesting that this thread has been going on for 2 years. 

At the same time giving my opinion that I don't use either mesh or paper when I finish. As I am sure you have noticed before I finish without tape. Because it is not my daily job as yours I appreciate all the expertism(not Sarcasim) that I read here. Unfortunately when writing in a forum its hard to see the other persons expressions. It is my daily ritual to check this forum every morning when I come into my office as I enjoy it so much. I believe in practical experience and not what the book or bunch of bumbling executives think they know. 
Ie. GA association quotes. Or manufacture quotes these are recommendations to keep them from getting sued or as a warrenty factor. Some are backed by single testers or what there customers or guys like yourself have inputed over the years but not all. And if they listen to the guys with as much experience as you or others here the Codes would be much simpler to understand. When you are on the job its a whole different world as to what you learn in theory.

Back to Paper or Mesh Tape. That is the thread here and I am interested to hear experiences in this subject. Which will help me when I do have to use either of them.

Rebel


----------



## Mudstar

This is exactly why the forum should be locked because half of you are not a drywall professional.

Mesh is for hacks and what to be's


----------



## Tim0282

Hey Mudstar.... The saying goes.... wanna be's, not what to be's....  
Either way, I must agree with you to a point.
This sure makes for a fun discussion, don't ya think? Good entertainment.


----------



## carpentaper

i'm aware that even my user name probably bothers a lot of the sensitive "pure" drywallers.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

rebel20 said:


> Capt'n
> I got the point I was on JLC exactly 3 times. I was stating a fact and found it interesting that this thread has been going on for 2 years.
> 
> At the same time giving my opinion that I don't use either mesh or paper when I finish. As I am sure you have noticed before I finish without tape. Because it is not my daily job as yours I appreciate all the expertism(not Sarcasim) that I read here. Unfortunately when writing in a forum its hard to see the other persons expressions. It is my daily ritual to check this forum every morning when I come into my office as I enjoy it so much. I believe in practical experience and not what the book or bunch of bumbling executives think they know.
> Ie. GA association quotes. Or manufacture quotes these are recommendations to keep them from getting sued or as a warrenty factor. Some are backed by single testers or what there customers or guys like yourself have inputed over the years but not all. And if they listen to the guys with as much experience as you or others here the Codes would be much simpler to understand. When you are on the job its a whole different world as to what you learn in theory.
> Back to Paper or Mesh Tape. That is the thread here and I am interested to hear experiences in this subject. Which will help me when I do have to use either of them.
> 
> Rebel


 I agree with you completely, that is why I bother to reply to KG. There is a way to do it, and then there is a way to experiment with it. KG is a hack that tries to bully his beginner ideas on a pro forum. If he knew what he was doing, I would not have an issue with him.

For example, I have been doing this for near 30 years, he figures since he tried a new tool last week, I don't have a clue.

Think about that !!


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

carpentaper said:


> i'm aware that even my user name probably bothers a lot of the sensitive "pure" drywallers.


I hear ya,, I post over in the paint forum as "capt-sheetrock" they think I'm a hack and a lowballer, (which to them, I guess i am) !!!!

But like Rodney said,,,, I just don't get no respect,,, LOL :thumbup:


----------



## cazna

Whats the name of that paint forum Capt? Might check it out.


----------



## Mudstar

cazna said:


> Whats the name of that paint forum Capt? Might check it out.


honestly your kidding I hope?


----------



## kgphoto

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I agree with you completely, that is why I bother to reply to KG. There is a way to do it, and then there is a way to experiment with it. KG is a hack that tries to bully his beginner ideas on a pro forum. If he knew what he was doing, I would not have an issue with him.
> 
> For example, I have been doing this for near 30 years, he figures since he tried a new tool last week, I don't have a clue.
> 
> Think about that !!


Capt, you are the bully who tries to intimidate those who don't agree with you. While we may agree on many things, when we don't I do provide back up for my "opinion" from industry standards and codes.

You 30 years certainly means something, but not everything. Many things that are available now, weren't available 30 years ago.

Sure I try new things and I tell the results like it is. If it is good and it does the job it is advertised to do, then great. If it doesn't, I would say so. Anyone can read our exchanges and decide for themselves which comments are contributions and which are not, by either of us.

No one has to take anything you or I say or the tools we prefer or don't at face value. You don't seem to wan them to have that opportunity. I am all for hearing about your experience with drywall, but your ignorant personal opinions of my ability is a waste of space on this and all forums. You may not like my opinon, and you are not required to, but I do back them up.


----------



## Tim0282

woohoo there KG! :thumbup: Spoken like a well rounded pro!


----------



## Mudstar

kgphoto said:


> I do provide back up for my "opinion" from industry standards and codes.


I'll let you know couple things about mesh. Its not industry standard and is not to code

If its not to "csa a82.31" then its not right period.

Google it you might just learn something ppl because it looks like no one really knows anyways.

I hope this ends the debate


----------



## kgphoto

I guess it depends on who's code you are going to follow. Canada code isn't the choice here in Los Angeles. I will tell you that the LA building code continued to recommend Green Board, for a while after USG stopped recommending it's use as a direct backer for tile installations in wet areas.

We all know that code systems are slow to update to new materials and is the MINIMUM standard you can build to. In other words, you built to code? Congratulations, you got a D-.

So the AHJ ( Authority having jurisdiction) is the final say in what goes. So either go with their prescriptive code or have your engineer/architect specify and stamp ( take responsibility for) the installation.


----------



## DSJOHN

Industry standards? Like wet sanding to keep dust to a minimum? Let,s get real,industry standards are a joke- try using that term in small claims court,good luck, and the original question--- mesh tape SUCKS!!! It,s original intentions were for plaster and some educated counter person starting pushing it off as drywall tape!! Research!!! DSJOHN


----------



## kgphoto

John,

Mesh tape definitely came from plaster. Drywall was in response to the need to make houses faster for returning war veterans. None of those facts affect the usability of the mediums discussed.

Codes don't speak to wet or dry sanding. They let the installer choose whatever he wants as long as he achieves the prescribed results.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> John,
> 
> Mesh tape definitely came from plaster. Drywall was in response to the need to make houses faster for returning war veterans. None of those facts affect the usability of the mediums discussed.
> 
> Codes don't speak to wet or dry sanding. They let the installer choose whatever he wants as long as he achieves the prescribed results.


Kg,,,,, your a daisy,,,,,, a real asset


----------



## DSJOHN

Do your research, codes most definitely spell out wet sanding[or should I clarify zero dust] maybe you havent had the opportunity to work on any of these buildings that state it in the specs.Too much residential? DSJOHN


----------



## Mudstar

From mesh vs paper to sanding. 

I thought that sanding was on another thread?


----------



## betterdrywall

There is no such thing as Mesh vs. Paper to begin with,,, Mesh will never be a replacement for Paper tape at all period,, and as I have stated before,, it does have some uses,, and is handy to have, But to tape a complete home out with it is just insane . or even an addition on a remodeling job.


----------



## mudslingercor

Kgphoto all I would like to say to you is you seem to think mesh is of a higher quality than paper. How long have you been taping what makes you think this? I've been taping for 15 year custom homes I know some of the families living in the houses,On a constant basis I've done celebrity homes and desiner homes that appear in magazines,I'm about to start a 30,000 sq ft home. The point is I've visited theses houses, very lg rooms painted ceilings and dark colors are the hardest to tape and my work still holds up after many years. Ask any pro and listen we actually know what we are talking about from our experiences.


----------



## kgphoto

DSJOHN said:


> Do your research, codes most definitely spell out wet sanding[or should I clarify zero dust] maybe you havent had the opportunity to work on any of these buildings that state it in the specs.Too much residential? DSJOHN


John,

Please quote the codes you are referencing. By this I mean cut and paste the section to this forum. Not all of our readers will have access to the code you are going to reference.


----------



## kgphoto

mudslingercor said:


> Kgphoto all I would like to say to you is you seem to think mesh is of a higher quality than paper. How long have you been taping what makes you think this? I've been taping for 15 year custom homes I know some of the families living in the houses,On a constant basis I've done celebrity homes and desiner homes that appear in magazines,I'm about to start a 30,000 sq ft home. The point is I've visited theses houses, very lg rooms painted ceilings and dark colors are the hardest to tape and my work still holds up after many years. Ask any pro and listen we actually know what we are talking about from our experiences.


Actually you misrepresent or misunderstand my position. I never said "mesh was better", not once!

What I did say was, properly used, with the correct mud, it works just fine. Also, for small jobs, ie bathroom remodels, it is faster for me to install as I am going to use hot mud any way. Finally, although, I don't use mesh in corners, there are systems that have been developed to do just that.

There is nothing wrong with paper. There are just other choices available now that do have some advantages depending on the specific situation.

Now in addition to standard mesh tape, you have Fiba Fuse and the Pronto tape (which I don't care for at all).

So to be clear, I never said paper was "bad" or that mesh was "better". Paper has a lower cost per linear foot, so that is a big drive toward it's use. Everyone complains about the cost of the new choices. You can see that in these forums as well as the others.

The biggest problem with mesh tape is all the "pro drywallers" (a made-up word) and DIY's, handmen, hardware store employees and home owners who use General Purpose mud with mesh tape. Of course it will crack then.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> Actually you misrepresent or misunderstand my position. I never said "mesh was better", not once!
> 
> What I did say was, properly used, with the correct mud, it works just fine. Also, for small jobs, ie bathroom remodels, it is faster for me to install as I am going to use hot mud any way. Finally, although, I don't use mesh in corners, there are systems that have been developed to do just that.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with paper. There are just other choices available now that do have some advantages depending on the specific situation.
> 
> Now in addition to standard mesh tape, you have Fiba Fuse and the Pronto tape (which I don't care for at all).
> 
> So to be clear, I never said paper was "bad" or that mesh was "better". Paper has a lower cost per linear foot, so that is a big drive toward it's use. Everyone complains about the cost of the new choices. You can see that in these forums as well as the others.
> 
> The biggest problem with mesh tape is all the "pro drywallers" (a made-up word) and DIY's, handmen, hardware store employees and home owners who use General Purpose mud with mesh tape. Of course it will crack then.


Kirk, you really are a daisy !!!


----------



## kgphoto

Just trying to keep it real.


----------



## Tim0282

Say KG, how do you feel about being called a daisy? :thumbsup: Don't think I have ever been called a daisy. Is that good or is that not good?


----------



## kgphoto

In the grand scheme of things, it matters not. What am I going to do? Reach through the net and slap him silly? He knows that is impossible, hence the willingness to engage.


----------



## Tim0282

You are right.
I do think it is a compliment.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

Tim0282 said:


> You are right.
> I do think it is a compliment.


Acutually, it is a term from the civil war period,,,, Its the same as calling someone "gay"

In the case of KG, it may well be a compliment !!!


----------



## kgphoto

Actually, I am a pretty positive person. And I am pretty positive you are a scoundrel.


----------



## carpentaper

STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## betterdrywall

Kirk... Mesh is bad... and so is,,, the Buttaper.....


----------



## rhardman

A wise man once said.... 



carpentaper said:


> STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Tim0282

Trying to pick a new fight, aren't you, Betterdrywall?? Go for it!!


----------



## kgphoto

Mesh is fine, when used properly. And not just because some of our members here are designing tools that use it. 

Use the correct tool for the job and use it properly because that is what professionals do. They know what they need for THEM to get the job done.  There is more than one way to skin a cat, and many paths to the top of the mountain. 

There, I didn't mention the Butt Taper once. :whistling2:


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> There is more than one way to skin a cat, :whistling2:


 
LOL, and the cat ain't gonna like any of em,,,,:thumbsup:


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## cazna

Mesh is a great product, love it, it does me a lot of favours.
Becouse its CRAP, It cracks and brakes at the slightest fart someone dares to drop (well not quite that bad anyway)
So if someone uses mesh it plays up, people call me, i fix it, they love me, Im the man, dont call that other arse of a plasterer just call me.
Prob dosent help that nz is an earthquake prone spot.
So thankyou mesh, you make me money :thumbsup:


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## Kiwiman

:lol: We don't get earthquakes over this side, I can only recall feeling one about 15 years ago when I was p1ss crook from the night before  , I was up a ladder working inside my house, I felt all woozy then thought oh crap I'm going to pass out up the ladder, then I turned around and saw the door swinging and thought oh crap, the house was haunted...and I'm going to pass out up the ladder, when I finally realized what it was it had finished.


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## cazna

We get a couple of shakes a year, and we overdue for a big one, so the experts say, oh well plenty of cracks to fix then.
You might have had the piss crook spins, thats never good.
Anyway, Yay mesh, you suck, we still have cowboys show up using mesh and knock a house out in record time then bugger off again, the owners move in to there lovely new home and opps i farted, there goes another crack in the ceiling.
I cant believe anyone worth there salt would use the junk, the builders crack leaves and the drywall cracks move in.


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## Frankawitz

You know you guys on the west coast should try using Durabond 90 if your having cracks every few months to deal with, the Durabond will hold tight, but depending on how much the house is moving. well I would say it's a crap shoot.
I would just look at it as Bread and Butter work, I would Specialize in just crack repairs, I wouldn't give any guarantees, How could you really. I have done plaster repairs for 30 years and just going around and fixing cracks, water damage, paint peeling, matching textures and retexturing
whole ceilings or walls. It always gave me a lot of work over the years.
Sounds like a good market to be in. As for the Mesh or Paper Tape who cares just Fix It! and hope you can make some money at it, and who knows you may pick up a Customer who will call you anytime there is something wrong at their house or Business.:thumbsup:


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## rhardman

*just my .02 ...*



Frankawitz said:


> Y... As for the Mesh or Paper Tape who cares just Fix It! and hope you can make some money at it...:thumbsup:


Durabond 90 is great. 
And in regard to, .."who cares just Fix It!..." 
Amen... :thumbup1:


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## Stormy_Ny

I have done 2 huge jobs for the same guy now .....His method for taping is Durabond 90 and Mesh on all seams and butts. Butts get Mesh and Paper.

Having the opportunity to paint over the finish work .... The only cracks there are, are vertical inside corners taped with paper. I say caulk the suckers !


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## kgphoto

I am fortunate to live where we have had some big quakes a few years apart, and a bunch of smaller ones in between.

Applying mesh with hot mud, hasn't cracked in any of the small quakes and not all repairs or seams even on the big ones. They guys who have problems with mesh working are those who don't set it in hot mud. That just makes more repair work for me. Yaa!


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## Tim0282

We wouldn't need paper or mesh if we all used Vario mud_______ So now what do we do?? Earthquakes.... bad cowboy tapers... south of the border guys two days and done...None of it would matter. We'd all be rich just leaving out all of the tape------>>>>>


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## Capt-sheetrock

Tim0282 said:


> We wouldn't need paper or mesh if we all used Vario mud_______ So now what do we do?? Earthquakes.... bad cowboy tapers... south of the border guys two days and done...None of it would matter. We'd all be rich just leaving out all of the tape------>>>>>


I agree Tim,, If your gonna use HOT MUD just skip the mesh, cause its the hot mud and not the mesh that is holding. Being as mesh does absolutely NOTHING


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## DSJOHN

It does one thing Capt----it eats into your profits


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## Capt-sheetrock

DSJOHN said:


> It does one thing Capt----it eats into your profits


Your my HERO !!!!!!!!


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## Tim0282

Have you ever heard anyone defend paper tape as hard as some defend mesh tape? Hmmm.... Is there a reason for that? I think so.


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## kgphoto

Why yes, actually. Right here on this thread.


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## silverstilts

I think it is time for a new debate... What do you guys think?


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## Capt-sheetrock

silverstilts said:


> I think it is time for a new debate... What do you guys think?


YES ,AMEN, your RIGHT !!!!!!!


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## Tim0282

:yes:


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## wnybassman

I think you guys can squeeze another few pages out of this thread :blink:


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## rhardman

Nooooo!!!!! :blink:

Don't do it!!!! 

Another debate option...

How about going political? Is the terrorists fantasy of 72 "know nothing" crying virgins better than one good woman that really knows what she's doing?

Oh, uh, sorry....maybe that's another forum altogether...arty:


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## SlimPickins

Hi, I'm new here and it looks like no one has commented on this thread for a couple of months. I really felt (after reading 13 pages) that I was close to making a decision on which was better in the paper vs. mesh debate. :no:

It seems to me that one or the other should be crowned king for _all_ situations for this debate to be over...and I don't believe anyone mentioned adding a glue product to the setting compound to increase flexibility to reduce the potential for cracking. I've always thought of mesh as rebar for hot mud, but upon reflection I recall seeing an awful lot of cracks in concrete. It would be interesting to develop a polymer that was flexible, easily applicable, and sandable. I once used a waterproof joint compound and that stuff was an absolute nightmare in every respect, but it repelled water.

I'm certainly not an advocate for doing large scale production work with glass tape, but it has it's uses and I'm quite fond of it for certain applications.

Thank you all so much for letting me chime in.


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## VANMAN

*Mesh*



TooledUp said:


> Most guys over here, even seasoned tool tapers, use mesh for flats now. One coat of 90 minute then one coat of regular to finish and a perfect job every time. Maybe why a lot of people fail with mesh is the actual tools used to apply the mud and skim the joint. 99.9% use a hawk and trowel here rather than a wipe down knife and mud tray.
> 
> I'm thinking of getting a monster mesh applicator and using the boxes to apply the 90 minute. Just gotta be careful to clean the boxes and pump out beefore it sets lol.
> 
> Nobody that I know uses mesh for corners. - Never heard of it done around here. The majority of the mesh rolls we get do not recommend for corners anyway...


 Hey Tooledup what fast set u using since we r from the same neck of the woods? Dryin is a c££t at the moment and started using mesh again with gyproc bagged filler workin good but not sure about the long term!! USG do a durabond filler thast ment 2 b tuff stuff but still tryin 2 get my hands on it!:blink:


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## muddermankc

I just use mesh on patches, it does finish out better for me. Also mesh my metal bead,paper for everything else. Im not saying that some guy somewhere hasnt mastered the art of meshing angles but i wouldnt do it,even if no one was looking,lol:thumbsup:


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## VANMAN

*weather*



amestaper said:


> Depends on what the client specifies. I'm happy with either method for flat joints but its always paper on an internal corner. Also dependant on how much time you have to finish the job.
> 
> During the Scottish winter I've seen a 7 " box over a flat tape take 5 days to dry out properly.
> 
> If theres a deadline on small jobs I can use mesh/scrim tape and apply 1 coat of 90 minute setting compound and a 10" box of mud/joint cement in a single day.
> 
> However, larger jobs and a warmer climate would get the paper tape and 3 coats every time.
> 
> Until I relocate farther south, I have to use both methods dependant on the weather.


 Yea chief same here paper all the time but our weather is sh*t! Takes at least 3 weeks using paper at this time of year if u dont want the tape sinking a week or so later!! Then people think u have done a sh*t job! If u hurray it u leave sh*t but if u wait so its right dry ur takin 2 long Not an easy trade at this time of year:furious:


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## VANMAN

*Plaster*



silverstilts said:


> You can say all you want about mess (Yes mesh is nothing more than a mess) tape and how it holds up , hog wash it is made for the so called tapers that never mastered or learned how to tape.... or the do it yourself guys . I'm sure this comment will add fuel to the flames , the one that mentioned that he always repairs with mesh where paper tape cracks , maybe if you have problems with paper tape you better go back and learn how to tape or find a new career..... to many want-a-be tapers out there , tape one job and think that they know everything there is to know...


 Yea im with u there i had an old house that was breeze block walls plastered over! It was built in 1970 odd and the cracks were everywhere,i fiba taped them and back they came After that paper taped them never 2 b seen again:thumbup:


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## VANMAN

*Boxes*



Whitey97 said:


> I didn't think anyone really used a 7 anymore


 I would like 2 ask u a question,Why do u guys over the pond get away with just using 10" box then a 12" box when we need the 7,10 and 12 over here?


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## VANMAN

KingOfDrywall said:


> In regards to the mesh tape vs. paper tape I have to say that the specifications are almost irrelevant. You could tear paper tape with your fingers........you couldn;t do it with a good mesh tape. The bond it holds to the board is almost irrelevant. Paper tape will "pop", or under extreme stress might even tear right down the middle. Mesh tape would never do either of those. So, as for which tape is stronger........mesh.
> That's why I asked what the debate was. Mesh is unarguabley harder to tear. Try it yourself .:whistling2:


 Its got nothing 2 do with if u can tear it with ur hands!! The way i see it is that mesh is open fibers i.e little squares and they dont and cant cover the seam! Paper covers the lot so cant crack!!


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## 2buckcanuck

VANMAN said:


> I would like 2 ask u a question,Why do u guys over the pond get away with just using 10" box then a 12" box when we need the 7,10 and 12 over here?


probably just the mud you using,we have some really nice products over here.they leave very little pin holes etc....and do not shrink too much.I would say it's more important to have better materials than tools......kind of.
and not that I use them that much,but we have easy sand hotmuds too:yes:


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## 2buckcanuck

VANMAN said:


> I would like 2 ask u a question,Why do u guys over the pond get away with just using 10" box then a 12" box when we need the 7,10 and 12 over here?


also,try reading up on boxes on here,There's so many different ways.some go , 8 then 10,some go 7,10,12.others go 10,12,7,I go double 10 while wet,then 12 when dry,will even skim that by hand if it is a sunshine wall.I know one taper who goes double 8" when wet,then goes 12".It's what works for you and what materials you have at your disposal ,so happy reading:thumbsup:


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## VANMAN

*Vario*



alltex said:


> Use rebels vario mud from Germany it won,t crack with paper ,mesh, or no tape at all.At least what i,v done with it hasn,t .No call backs yet. Its like working hot mud .


 Hey chief from scotland here and trying 2 get my hands on the stuff 2 try it!! Sounds the beez neez but why is it only america u get the stuff and germany makes the stuff? Me not that far away from them!:blink:


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## VANMAN

*Fiba Fuse*



FibaFuse said:


> Cazna, today is your lucky day! FibaFuse is now available in NZ through Manners Building Products. Here is a local contact name for you at Manners...
> 
> Kerry
> Manners Building Products Ltd.
> 2E Rothwell Ave. Albany.
> New Zealand.
> Email [email protected]
> Phone 64 9 415 7488


 What about scotland u got a contact over here yet?


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## VANMAN

*Mud*



2buckcanuck said:


> probably just the mud you using,we have some really nice products over here.they leave very little pin holes etc....and do not shrink too much.I would say it's more important to have better materials than tools......kind of.
> and not that I use them that much,but we have easy sand hotmuds too:yes:


 I use usg plus 3, is this not the same as u guys use? I do believe some of it gets shipped over from u guys!!


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## moore

VANMAN said:


> I use usg plus 3, is this not the same as u guys use? I do believe some of it gets shipped over from u guys!!


i like the plus 3. hides well, less scratches . takes awhile to dry. vario is great stuff. if i had my way ,it would be the only hot i'd ever use. tried it with no tape. 1 seam, in closet. 5 days ago . NO heat in house. no crack! still here , its gonna be hard to sell a tapeless compound to any g/c or h/o. i do believe a tapeless compound can work, and if anyone can make it work. it's the Germans . i used it on stress crack[ truss lift] smooth stuff. mixes by hand like a dream. sets up like cement . pretty color when dry. no bubbles when topping with a/p. rebel sent me 3 11lb bags . gave 1 to my brother ,to try. i'm down to 1/2 bag. thinking of ordering a pallet. every wallboard tech. needs a bag of vario in there truck at all times.:thumbsup:


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## Tim0282

I agree with you!


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## Drywall_King

VANMAN said:


> I would like 2 ask u a question,Why do u guys over the pond get away with just using 10" box then a 12" box when we need the 7,10 and 12 over here?


If you fill the bevel the first time after taping then you dont need the 7'box


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## moore

Drywall_King said:


> If you fill the bevel the first time after taping then you dont need the 7'box


like a hand taper.


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## moore

set me straight capt.i can take it.


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## 2buckcanuck

moore said:


> like a hand taper.


cheer up moore,put a smile on your face,if your a typical male,you will buy taping toys 
Guys around here call it back wiping the tape.you wipe your flat tape and go back over it filling the bevell right away .some guys like it,some don't,I'm not keen on it.it's been discussed on this site before.It's something a hand taper can do too


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## moore

2buckcanuck said:


> cheer up moore,put a smile on your face,if your a typical male,you will buy taping toys
> Guys around here call it back wiping the tape.you wipe your flat tape and go back over it filling the bevell right away .some guys like it,some don't,I'm not keen on it.it's been discussed on this site before.It's something a hand taper can do too


seems to me , blocking in wet tape will cause a poor bond. even with hot mud. even if it's a small amount.:huh:


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## Capt-sheetrock

moore said:


> seems to me , blocking in wet tape will cause a poor bond. even with hot mud. even if it's a small amount.:huh:


 In my limited experience, "back-skimming" over wet tape is pretty, but it insures that the tape will "float" to to the top, meaning that it ends up even with the paper,,,,,, looks purty tho


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## 2buckcanuck

Capt-sheetrock said:


> In my limited experience, "back-skimming" over wet tape is pretty, but it insures that the tape will "float" to to the top, meaning that it ends up even with the paper,,,,,, looks purty tho


yeap,that's the biggest draw back too me too,I will never find that older thread on this topic .The #2 thing is it takes longer to lay the flats.Just get the damn things on and let them shrink and dry:yes:


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## Capt-sheetrock

2buckcanuck said:


> yeap,that's the biggest draw back too me too,I will never find that older thread on this topic .The #2 thing is it takes longer to lay the flats.Just get the damn things on and let them shrink and dry:yes:


 Thats why hand finishers hate the zooka or the banjo,,,, they make an ugly tape coat,,, perfect (cause the tape is buried in the bevel) but ugly


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## Final touch drywall

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Thats why hand finishers hate the zooka or the banjo,,,, they make an ugly tape coat,,, perfect (cause the tape is buried in the bevel) but ugly


wrong,we hate those tools cause you gotta thin the crap outta the mud & everything shrinks.Adding water to mud is a no-no IMHO.you might as well use piss to tape with.


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## VANMAN

Drywall_King said:


> If you fill the bevel the first time after taping then you dont need the 7'box


 Sorry chief but filling the bevel by hand is going 2 take a lot longer than a 7" box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dont think u quite get what i am asking!


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## moore

Final touch drywall said:


> wrong,we hate those tools cause you gotta thin the crap outta the mud & everything shrinks.Adding water to mud is a no-no IMHO.you might as well use piss to tape with.


do you skim straight out the bucket?


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## Final touch drywall

moore said:


> do you skim straight out the bucket?


No, but a skim is not intended to hold tape on the wall,thin down glue & tell me what happens.More water,= more shrinkage + poor bond.That's all I have to say.


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## moore

Final touch drywall said:


> No, but a skim is not intended to hold tape on the wall,thin down glue & tell me what happens.More water,= more shrinkage + poor bond.That's all I have to say.


you are right. says so on bucket. i don't use a/p for taping butts or seams. hot mud and paper tape only . in the winter months it's a must. house with no heat, i can dry tape coat before i leave. a/p half dry/ half wet will freeze at 30 degrees . and we all know what happens then.


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## 2buckcanuck

Final touch drywall said:


> No, but a skim is not intended to hold tape on the wall,thin down glue & tell me what happens.More water,= more shrinkage + poor bond.That's all I have to say.


do you not think the people who manufacture mud have not thought of that .And the bazooka has been around for how long ?????Why do you think mud boxes come in pretty colours or different lid tops.Though your from florida ,I will give you a example of a mud product we call CGC, a sub of USG . 
green boxes - meant for taping,a bitch to sand
red boxes - all purpose,for bedding,less glue in it,so it's easier to sand .
blue boxes - topping mud,meant for skimming ,even less glue in it .
machine mud - name says it all,they designed a mud for machine tapers .
If you don't trust what the manufacturer's say,then buy a product called "Mud Max" ,a glue you can mix with your mud .If you don't trust Mud Max ,then hell,throw in some white glue .
plus I find most tapers I know want the tape/1st coat to shrink ,makes it more easy to hide and bed .
Not harping on you but,weather your a hand or machine taper ,you should be aware what certain muds were designed for .There's meanings to all those pretty colours they give us .:yes:


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## Tim0282

Yea, that's right! :yawn:


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## Capt-sheetrock

Either mix enough water to all purpose USG green lid mud to be able to pour it from one bucket to another, or just buy USG machine grade mud (same green lid, just more water)that comes from the factory with enough water added to it to pour it from bucket to bucket. If you think that adding water to AP is a bad thing,, then just hand tape,,,lol.

If it wern't for hand tapers, I wouldn't make the bucks I do.


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## moore

paper tape.


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> paper tape.


I did a remodel recently where the previous "finisher" used *duct* tape:thumbsup:


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## moore

SlimPickins said:


> I did a remodel recently where the previous "finisher" used *duct* tape:thumbsup:


the cheap duct tape, or the good stuff?:stuart:


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> I did a remodel recently where the previous "finisher" used *duct* tape:thumbsup:


did it work or was it all cracked out


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> did it work or was it all cracked out


He just painted right over the tape....it was ummm....a _little _blistered:lol:


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## fr8train

PIC or it didn't happen! :whistling2:


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> He just painted right over the tape....it was ummm....a _little _blistered:lol:


guess he didn't use the good duct tape like moore suggested :whistling2::jester:


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## SlimPickins

fr8train said:


> PIC or it didn't happen! :whistling2:


I'll see what I can do, they remodeled 80% of the house but didn't want us to slap some tape in the downstairs bathroom


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## Bevelation

One of the first things I tell guys that I hire is: "If I catch you using fibretape, you're fired."

They might think I'm joking...


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