# 3 coats and you're out



## brianmulligan

Hey

All you great tapers out there. Been doing a lot of one day jobs recently and I'm looking for imput. I use 45 to first and second coat the flats and butt joints. I can get away with using 45 on the last coat for the flats and butts it's the corners giving me the most trouble. I've put all three coats in one shot on some jobs, sometimes I just do do the first coat and one, then follow up with the other side after drying. Easy sand doesn't really sand well, It just kind of pushes the compound around and the corners always take longer to dry for some reason. In any event not crazy about the finished product. I've done some jobs where I've skim coated everything with regular mud and it takes forever to dry. I wish the 45 and premix dried the same color.

Has anyone dried using flex tape on these corners for a one day job? They used to have a line about 1/4 " into the flex tape which is all you had to tape to. They stopped manufacturing with this line because painters were not priming and they were getting complaints. ( I had a conversation with the owner of the company who manufacturers flex tape, an ex taper and he told me this). Sorry so long winded. Thanks for listening.


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## silverstilts

Sometimes we all forget that taping is a process no matter what size job it is. It's not always about getting at the finish line first (speed at getting a job done) but more like a marathon just finishing the job with quality first. I have had more success just bringing fans along drying out the mud rather than any quickset or Hot mud. Quickset always has a mind of its own when you count on it the most, weather it's the water you are using or the humidity or just the temperature where you are working. Quicksetting mud still has to dry , it may be set up but there is still moisture in there that will cause bubbles on the next coat. So why put yourself through the misery just use regular mud with fans get your three coats on and come back the next day and sand.


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## A smooth finish

Have you guys tried heat guns. I have heard from other patch work guys that they used Heat guns to help dry things out.


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## M T Buckets Painting

Correct me if I am wrong... It sounds like you are wanting the best of both worlds. You like the quick dry times of setting compounds and the workability and sanding properties of pre mixed compounds.

Here is what I do on some of the very small projects that I do.
I mix quickset with regular compound. I usually mix up about 2 gallons at a time. I put about 25% quickset into regular compound. First I soup the regular compound to about taping mud consistency then I add a shot of dish soap. Then take the powder and bring the soupy mud back to the consistency that is desired. I mix all of this in a 2.5 gallon bucket with a paint mixer. The set time of your quick set is increased somewhat. Not as much as you would think. You will get a quick dry time, even quicker with a fan. You also get the benefit of having the mud tool off real nice. I would compare the sanding to a little tougher than undiluted all purpose. 

One thing to note is that each time you mix a new batch, clean everything real good. I have had well over an hour work time using this mix using 45. With dirty tools such as mixer and bucket, it has gone off in 20 minutes. 

Hope that this helps you.


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## thefinisher

Sounds like you are trying to sand the quickset when it is set-up not when it is dry. Quickset in my opinion actually takes longer to dry than regular mud does. There is no way around it, you just have to wait for it to dry for it to sand. My method would be tape and bed with quickset, then touch it up with quickset, then a tight skim with regular mud. You will still run into the problem of how each compound sands however. It is best to use the same compound throughout the jobs entirety if you want it to sand perfect. quickset and regular mud do not sand down at the same rate so you will sometimes run into problems with this. I recommend my method most of the time but you can use just quickset as well for the entire job, but I do suggest instead of touching up after bed coat that you skim it as normal and then come back and do another tight skim as it sands better IMO.

- for example I just had to solid skim out all the walls in 1920's textured plaster room and put 3.5 bags worth of 45 min quickset on them to level them, then I used an entire bag of 5 minute to skim over it, then I ran a tight skim of regular mud over that. It took a couple days to dry but it came out like glass :yes:


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## bmedra9

what 3 coats??? Here in michigan we do a bedcoat and skimcoat
i use 20min and mesh tape for bedcoat and proform lite for skim coat on all one day jobs or skim with 45min and put a airmover on it to sand in one day


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## fenez

For small jobs I use gauging plaster on the seams and screws and beads, I use straight flex perfect 90 in the corners which allows you to just skim the edges so you don't have to worry about dry time in the corners and the plaster prevents sanding on everything else, just wet it and burnish it smooth.


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## 2buckcanuck

bmedra9 said:


> what 3 coats??? Here in michigan we do a bedcoat and skimcoat
> i use 20min and mesh tape for bedcoat and proform lite for skim coat on all one day jobs or skim with 45min and put a airmover on it to sand in one day


Guess we speak the same lingo, since were across the Detroit river from you:yes:

Here on drywall talk, they consider the tape, or that bad "M" word you said, the first coat. I guess it makes sense if you think about it, but like you, we would say tape, coat, skim coat.

But in the summer, when it's very humid, all my steps would be, prefill, tape, coat, ROUGH sand







, skim coat, finish sand, light check, perfection:thumbup::whistling2:


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## thefinisher

fenez said:


> For small jobs I use gauging plaster on the seams and screws and beads, I use straight flex perfect 90 in the corners which allows you to just skim the edges so you don't have to worry about dry time in the corners and the plaster prevents sanding on everything else, just wet it and burnish it smooth.


 never seen that done, have any pictures?


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## Philma Crevices

A smooth finish said:


> Have you guys tried heat guns. I have heard from other patch work guys that they used Heat guns to help dry things out.


Used a hair dryer a time or two











brianmulligan said:


> Hey
> 
> All you great tapers out there. Been doing a lot of one day jobs recently and I'm looking for imput. I use 45 to first and second coat the flats and butt joints. I can get away with using 45 on the last coat for the flats and butts it's the corners giving me the most trouble. I've put all three coats in one shot on some jobs, sometimes I just do do the first coat and one, then follow up with the other side after drying. Easy sand doesn't really sand well, It just kind of pushes the compound around and the corners always take longer to dry for some reason. In any event not crazy about the finished product. I've done some jobs where I've skim coated everything with regular mud and it takes forever to dry. I wish the 45 and premix dried the same color.
> 
> Has anyone dried using flex tape on these corners for a one day job? They used to have a line about 1/4 " into the flex tape which is all you had to tape to. They stopped manufacturing with this line because painters were not priming and they were getting complaints. ( I had a conversation with the owner of the company who manufacturers flex tape, an ex taper and he told me this). Sorry so long winded. Thanks for listening.


 What I do is 1st coat hotmud wider than you need to go, edges on paint dry slow as all hell as you know already... scrape and fill in pocking/ with what was scraped off/2nd coat a bit smaller so no edge drag issue(if on paint), 3rd pull piss tight with +3 or an ap mud. Fan and its ready to sand withing an hour. Angles i pisscoat after hot mudding as well, pulling sideways not going all the way into the angle. Been known to flat tape an angle or 2 and caulk if I'm feelin pissy enough

No way would I do more than a 15 sht job this way, big waste of time.

Hot mud isn't made to be a paintable surface as far as I know. I've had flashing issues years back trying to get away with it. No real reason to final coat with hotty when reg mud dries just as quick if your other coats were on the money :thumbsup:


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## PrecisionTaping

2buckcanuck said:


>


Seriously!? Where the hell did you find that!?


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## fenez

thefinisher said:


> never seen that done, have any pictures?


It's widely used here. It doesn't look any different than regular finishing, it just allows you to finish it quickly it is still the basically the same method,
Rough, coat, polish. At least that what tapers here in N..Y call all the coats.


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## A smooth finish

I use alot of 5 min mud. Alot of my work is repair. Proform 5 Min is awesome It sands great.


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## thefinisher

A smooth finish said:


> I use alot of 5 min mud. Alot of my work is repair. Proform 5 Min is awesome It sands great.


Yep that is all I use. And if you mix it right you can get close to 10 minutes out of it :yes:


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## A smooth finish

thefinisher said:


> Yep that is all I use. And if you mix it right you can get close to 10 minutes out of it :yes:


Ya I love it. Its nice a creamy compared to the sheet rock stuff that just sucks,


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## Whosnxt1776

Since we are on the topic of hot mud. I would really appreciate if someone would invent and apparatus that mixed it for you. I know if you need to use a lot you can mix it in a bucket. But sometimes you need a few pan fulls and I hate mixing it in my pan with my 6. 

Or if you mix a whole bucket it will be set before you can use it all on certain jobs. We recently did a job where a local business installed some large windows in the side of the building and the rock around them was replaced and they needed to be wrapped with bead. We wanted to coat and skim that day. So we used 45 rucco and mixed it a pan at a time since the job took several hours. Then skim with murco and sanded the next day. 

But I would have loved to have had something to make mixing a pan full easier.


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## sdrdrywall

Use a little hand held kitchen mixer with the 2 beaters fits right in the pan sounds stupid but works


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## brianmulligan

*3 coats and your out*

Hey thanks for all your helpful responses.

Couple comments

I never thought about it but I agree with the Finisher concerning the differences between setup and drying. I do think it takes longer to dry. Fenez you were the only one who's using straight flex in the corners, definitely something I'm going to do in the future, but what is "gauging plaster"? I didn't understand your explaination to the Finisher.

whosnxt1776, have you tried using a 18 volt cordless with one of those small mixers from Home Depot? Can mix very small batches well.

A couple mentions about bubble problems. Did a one dayer at Yale recently ( name dropper) and got called back because of bubbling. Since then I've been drawing out my second coat as far as I would my 3rd coat on on hot mud applications and painted surfaces. So far so good.


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## M T Buckets Painting

sdrdrywall said:


> Use a little hand held kitchen mixer with the 2 beaters fits right in the pan sounds stupid but works


I volunteered to help a friend install some tile in his laundry room. I asked if he had a drill and mixer to mix up the thinset. He comes downstairs with a huge glass bowl and a kitchen mixer.:blink:
Needless to say, the mixer didn't make it through the thinset and the bowl was ruined. His wife was pissed! I couldn't keep a straight face. I was ROFLMFAO!

I guess that the kitchen mixer would fare pretty well mixing quickset. I mix quickset with a small paint mixer with a cordless drill and haven't had any problems yet.


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## thefinisher

Is it really that hard to mix it in your pan with your knife lol? Not really any faster to get out a drill and little mixer to mix it then have to clean the mixer off. doesn't matter if it is a bit lumpy because once it starts setting up you can go back over it to slick it down.


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## fr8train

Why can't you just mix a few pan fulls in a bucket? I don't recall seeing anywhere that you had to make a full bucket every time:whistling2:


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## Tucker

when I hot mud a small job. I tape and block with 20 or 45min, but there is one thing i do that i think helps a lot. Just as the mud is setting, maybe 5 min before the hard set and the mud is still kind of soft, but you can tell it is starting to set and will lose it wet "glassy" look. test it! take a 6" or 8" and rub the hot mud. Its almost like finishing concrete. In fact the same principles apply. Rub and polish the chit out of it. One can fill in pin holes and make laps set flat. Now its not a scrape! its a rub! You will "build up" half set soft mud on your knife. Take that mud and move it around and rub it flat! Now you have your block coat all nice and polished put on you skim coat. Make sure you are skimming...thats why they call it a skim coat..lol. If it bubbles you are putting on to much mud...try the rub thing on a patch. I can rub a patch with one coat and never skim.


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## Tucker

Oh and if you want to turn 45 min mud into 20 min mud? How you ask? Just take a scrap board and rasp some dust in your hot mud. I turned 90 min into 2 min mud yesterday! Try it! it works. That tip will cost you more than 2 bucks...the more dust you rasp the faster the set. I call it the anti-retarder


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## 2buckcanuck

Tucker said:


> Oh and if you want to turn 45 min mud into 20 min mud? How you ask? Just take a scrap board and rasp some dust in your hot mud. I turned 90 min into 2 min mud yesterday! Try it! it works. That tip will cost you more than 2 bucks...the more dust you rasp the faster the set. I call it the anti-retarder


Use hot water:thumbup:

With my trick, you don't half to rip any drywall off the wall:whistling2::jester:


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## Tucker

Hot water will not turn 90 min into 2 min mud. I will give you .50 cent for that tip..lol


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## fr8train

Tucker said:


> Oh and if you want to turn 45 min mud into 20 min mud? How you ask? Just take a scrap board and rasp some dust in your hot mud. I turned 90 min into 2 min mud yesterday! Try it! it works. That tip will cost you more than 2 bucks...the more dust you rasp the faster the set. I call it the anti-retarder





2buckcanuck said:


> Use hot water:thumbup:
> 
> With my trick, you don't half to rip any drywall off the wall:whistling2::jester:





Tucker said:


> Hot water will not turn 90 min into 2 min mud. I will give you .50 cent for that tip..lol


Add salt to your water!:furious:


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## Tucker

I have often wondered??? Will salt keep your mud from freezing?


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## 2buckcanuck

Tucker said:


> Hot water will not turn 90 min into 2 min mud. I will give you .50 cent for that tip..lol



I don't play with hotmuds that much anymore, I share the opinion of silver stilts in post #2

But I do agree with your post #22. It's sorta like treating the hotmud like veneer plaster. I use to flick water on with a paint brush as it set, and finish trowel it out........ back in the day:whistling2:


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## gazman

Thats where we use cornice cement. It is like a hot mud with glue, but setting can be accelerated by mixing. You can mix a batch like normal hot mud and it will last for 45min, but take a bit out and give it a real beat up on your hawk and it will be set in 5 min. The more you mix it the quicker it sets.:thumbsup:


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## Whosnxt1776

I wasnt saying that it was "that hard" or anything. Just saying I would buy an apparatus that you could add hot mud and a little water to and mix up to a pan full quickly without using a smaller drill or my 6.


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## Tucker

Whosnxt1776 said:


> I wasnt saying that it was "that hard" or anything. Just saying I would buy an apparatus that you could add hot mud and a little water to and mix up to a pan full quickly without using a smaller drill or my 6.



I think they make one for large scale plaster? Mixes the water and powder as you need it...would be kind of cool to have a small one! Dump in your powder on one side and water on other. Have a setting for firm or soup and push play..


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## thefinisher

Tucker said:


> when I hot mud a small job. I tape and block with 20 or 45min, but there is one thing i do that i think helps a lot. Just as the mud is setting, maybe 5 min before the hard set and the mud is still kind of soft, but you can tell it is starting to set and will lose it wet "glassy" look. test it! take a 6" or 8" and rub the hot mud. Its almost like finishing concrete. In fact the same principles apply. Rub and polish the chit out of it. One can fill in pin holes and make laps set flat. Now its not a scrape! its a rub! You will "build up" half set soft mud on your knife. Take that mud and move it around and rub it flat! Now you have your block coat all nice and polished put on you skim coat. Make sure you are skimming...thats why they call it a skim coat..lol. If it bubbles you are putting on to much mud...try the rub thing on a patch. I can rub a patch with one coat and never skim.


 
Yep, do this with 5 minute just about every day. You call it rubbing it down and I call it slicking it but it is the same thing. People will find that you will be able to time it just right so you can slick it down and make it perfectly flat in one coat :yes:. 5 minute is the best quickset out there!


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## thefinisher

fr8train said:


> Add salt to your water!:furious:


never heard of the salt trick before. You can also control set time by how hard you mix it as well. The more you mix it the faster it sets up imo.


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## moore

OH YEAH...! Just keep doing what your doing.

It's good for business!:thumbsup:


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## fenez

brianmulligan said:


> Hey thanks for all your helpful responses.
> 
> Couple comments
> 
> I never thought about it but I agree with the Finisher concerning the differences between setup and drying. I do think it takes longer to dry. Fenez you were the only one who's using straight flex in the corners, definitely something I'm going to do in the future, but what is "gauging plaster"? I didn't understand your explaination to the Finisher.
> 
> whosnxt1776, have you tried using a 18 volt cordless with one of those small mixers from Home Depot? Can mix very small batches well.
> 
> A couple mentions about bubble problems. Did a one dayer at Yale recently ( name dropper) and got called back because of bubbling. Since then I've been drawing out my second coat as far as I would my 3rd coat on on hot mud applications and painted surfaces. So far so good.


Gauging plaster is used to mix what is called a gauge of plaster, in which you make a well on a board then put water into the well then plaster into the water, once the plaster soaks up the wAter you then mix it together and if you gauged it properly it will dry in the time you estimated it to dry, or at least set up in a short period of time. I actually did a small hallway today 3 coats in a few hours and it came out reAl nice. If you can't find gauging plaster you can use plaster of Paris.


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## saskataper

I just use a beater off a kitchen mixer on a cordless or even my mixing drill, most often for con fill when I'm pre-filling.


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