# Level 5



## Brockster

Has anybody tried to spray a skim coat over a painted surface? I'm a little worried I'll get the dreaded air bubbles when it starts to dry. Maybe it won't because it's just a thin coat. Anyone ever been it this situation and have a good answer for me?


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## rettt

*Texture Over A Painted Surface /air Bubbles*

If you are getting air bubbles the mud you use to texture with probably is getting way too much water added to it ! Try approx 3 quarts of water to every 3.5 gallons of light wieght mud . If you use the general purpose mud ! Use less water in general purpose mud .


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## Brockster

Yesterday I used all-purpose thin way down to almost the consistency of good high build primer and went back today and no bubbles like I was afraid of. It is "level 5" now, I suppose and looks great for smooth wall. 
The problem I saw was with my patches being smooth and the previously backrolled painted surface not matching. Now it all is smooth, no chance for photographing and I'm happy trying it this way worked out great.


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## cooper

Usually in the level 5 final coat when coating by hand you are making things that much flatter. Wouldn't spraying the final coat just be like painting it, but filling in imperfections a little? It also seems like if you had a scratch in a wall it would fill the scratch, but there would also be more material on the rest of the wall, so then the scratch would ultimately not be filled... Right?


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## Brockster

cooper said:


> Usually in the level 5 final coat when coating by hand you are making things that much flatter. Wouldn't spraying the final coat just be like painting it, but filling in imperfections a little? It also seems like if you had a scratch in a wall it would fill the scratch, but there would also be more material on the rest of the wall, so then the scratch would ultimately not be filled... Right?


Most if not all imperfections will still be there after a sprayed skim coat. Skim coating helps to ensure you don't get "photographing". Without the texture you have a good chance of seeing every place you applied mud because the primer will adhere to the paper and mud differently.


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## cooper

Brockster said:


> Most if not all imperfections will still be there after a sprayed skim coat. Skim coating helps to ensure you don't get "photographing". Without the texture you have a good chance of seeing every place you applied mud because the primer will adhere to the paper and mud differently.


Ok, are we talking about spraying mud or paint? Just priming will avoid the flashing, or photographing, why are you spraying mud... ? If you can spray mud over a wall to avoid flashing, then why not just orange peel the wall with no primer and call it a day?


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## Brockster

I had a job where we put in new ceilings because they needed to add speakers and a million little lights. They kept the existing walls that were smooth except for a small stipple from a 3/8 roller and we had about 50 patches plus fixed up the old drywall. The owner want smooth so trying to get all the patches to match along with the new ceilings we needed to skim coat everything. 
BTW, Builders Solution does a great job at hiding seams but with all the light from the windows and light bouncing off the lake I needed to go one step further.


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## cooper

But isn't the one step further, mud? So when you spray mud the same as you spray primer it is better for stopping flashing? I had a Graco rep try to sell me on these 'smooth wall' spraying machines but he didn't mention anything about stopping flashing with the mud...


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## Tim0282

Cooper, The difference is the primer soaks in to the drywall different than the mud. When spraying the mud on the wall, the whole wall is covered the same and the primer can soak in an all will look the same. Works great.


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## cooper

What are you saying... ? 

Primer soaks into the wall taking away the possibility of flashing. Why would spraying mud through one of the Graco mud sprayers be an alternative to priming with paint? How is it better than orange peel? I guess it would depend on how much mud you used for orange peel... We spray it on pretty heavy in my area...

I'm not arguing, just trying to learn more about these new mud spraying airlesses. How do these things hold up by the way? I find myself repairing my paint airless enough that I wouldn't want to mess with the similarly fashioned mud airless...


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## Brockster

Coop, Tim had it right from what our understanding is meaning the primer will soak into the paper differently than it will the mud and causes our flashing problems.:thumbsup:


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## cooper

ah.... I thought he was defending the method...


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## Brockster

cooper said:


> What are you saying... ?
> 
> How do these things hold up by the way? I find myself repairing my paint airless enough that I wouldn't want to mess with the similarly fashioned mud airless...


Good question, I have the markV that is made to pump thick mudd but only time will tell to how long the pump lasts. So far it has pumped mudd through 150' of hose and it's hardly working. We'll see. 
That reminds me I need to order that extra pump with their "endurance" offer.


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## Al Taper

Took a Level 5 class. We used the mark V sprayer and used this Grabber primer( with spackle in it) Put two coats on looks great. But its not cheap. I asked about useing spackle said Green/black is the best to use. Spray it on and use a squeege to wipe it off. Two coat comes out like glass.

Grabber site:
http://www.grabberman.com/ItemDetails.aspx?pkey=Adhesives%2c+Paint+%26+Caulk%7cGrabber+Acrylitex+Interior+Coatings%7cAcrylitex+Smooth+Wall&pval=4%7c37%7cGASW&pIds=CategoryID%7cProductTypeID%7citemid&itemid=GASW#Features


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## HangemHigh

We use Magnum Level Coat, we spray it on after final touch-up with a markV. It does an amazing job for us


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## cooper

The Magnum Level coat is a primer though, right? Not a real thinly mixed mud?


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## brdn_drywall

i only use my mark v for level 4 skiming now (20"spraycoat with a tight wipe over the box coat ) prorock brand has a new level 5 wall and ceiling primer/surfacer that does everything you guys are debating with a regular airless. it is manufactured by certanteed (formerlly bpb before the takeover) high hidability and sandable the rep gave me 10 free gallons to try and at 90$ a fiver and eliminating primer best bang for your buck on the market right now.


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## Tim0282

brdn_drywall said:


> i only use my mark v for level 4 skiming now (20"spraycoat with a tight wipe over the box coat ) prorock brand has a new level 5 wall and ceiling primer/surfacer that does everything you guys are debating with a regular airless. it is manufactured by certanteed (formerlly bpb before the takeover) high hidability and sandable the rep gave me 10 free gallons to try and at 90$ a fiver and eliminating primer best bang for your buck on the market right now.


USG has one also, have you tried it? I have. Ummm it is so, so. If you apply it as thick as they spec, it fish eyes a bit. That is not so pretty. You couldn't sand it, either. Prorock sound more appealing.


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## OLDSKOOL TAPER

Hi every one,over here in the UK,we don't do a "level 5" type finish in the way you do in America/canada,it seems to me you defeat the object,why go to all the trouble of taping all joints etc and finishing ,only then to cover the entire job in joint compound then smooth all that out.Why not just skim the whole job with board finish plaster?I still can't get my head around the idea of the skim coat,i know full well the problems with joints photographing,but know matter what you do ,natural light coming through a window at certain times of the day ,can still make any level of finishing look ropey.we only have 2 types of wall primer over here,one is just like a basic painters primer,bog standard,but the other is more expensive and is a sealer,once applied it sets like nail polish,and really helps to avoid photgraphing,2 coats also gives you a vapour check.Back to my main point,let me know your views on the point of skim coating. Thanks


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## cooper

OLDSKOOL TAPER said:


> Hi every one,over here in the UK,we don't do a "level 5" type finish in the way you do in America/canada,it seems to me you defeat the object,why go to all the trouble of taping all joints etc and finishing ,only then to cover the entire job in joint compound then smooth all that out.Why not just skim the whole job with board finish plaster?


When skimming walls for a Level 5 finish, I use joint compound over finish plaster because it is significantly cheaper. The reason why I skim the entire wall with joint compound is to fill in the many imperfections of sheetrock. Certain lights can really make any wall look imperfect, that is definitely true. But you need to 'go to all the trouble of finishing joints' because the final skim coat is real thin and in no way is intended to make the joints appear flat.


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## OLDSKOOL TAPER

Over here you only ever see joint cement on skimmed walls,if they have had a rubbish plasterer,by which time it to late cos it's been painted with a high sheen paint finish,We don't have the level 1-5 finish system over here, though ithink it would be a good thing, we've been asked to sort out quite a few taping jobs where clients are happy with the finish,most range from mud being applied with a catapult to walls that look like you would need crampons to scale the joint or the classic"one coat fits all"and these so called tapers have been paid top $ for the job,over here they will have taping till somebody does a crap job,then they go back to skimming,then when somebody ball's that job up they go back to taping.Our level 5 equivalent would be 8-10-12 box, a loving sand, check for dents and scratches with a halogen light then 1-2 coats of sealer.


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## MudSlinger777

Hey guys new here to the site noticed ur concern about skimming mud over a painted surface. Several issues come up is it smooth with paint? is it oil base or is it water base paint. Part of the problem is grip and adhesion of skim coat. I do alot of this type of stuff especially in kitchens and baths where typically walls are smooth, at least here in california lol. If I have a smooth surface I will roll bonder plaster adhesive on the wall then ad 2 cups to My all purpuse mud with maybe a lil water if needed to . Then skim the wall out. lightly sand and tight skim again sand then use a light to touch up. If you have oil base paint on a surface either textured or smooth u must sand once over with 80Grit spand paper then oil base primer it then u can pour a bit of bonder adhesive in ur mud and skim. Do not use bonder adhesive in ur final coat of mud as it makes it more diffaclut to sand. Also alow significant time for drying. To much mud with out proper curing time can cause it to not stick and then well it call all fall down Trust Me I learned the hard way  lol


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## 1wallboardsman

HangemHigh said:


> We use Magnum Level Coat, we spray it on after final touch-up with a markV. It does an amazing job for us


The best surfacer for drywall period.

jdl


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## caseysbuilding

I always used a roller for a level 5. If you are good a level 4 is all that is needed.http://www.caseysbuilding.com


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## Rapidjoint90

Lafarge Gypsum has a level 5 drywall. Paper is already embedded with joint compound. This product is Unreal, I use it on all of my ceilings and critical light areas. It's faster and cheaper and 10 times better than hand applied level 5.


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## Tim0282

Are the edges tapered like typical rock? And do you finish it the same? Sounds like a good deal.


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## silverstilts

Same factory edges although once you spot the screws they blend in with the rock more and patches you have to watch a little closer so you don't miss stuff that was only one coated other than the obvious . Other than that it is nice to work with...


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## Tim0282

Use Never Miss to mud it. One ounce in a five makes the mud yellow and real easy to see and it helps stop joint flash! Great stuff! We use it in all our skim coat mud. Quick look around the room and if it's not yellow it hasn't been skimmed. I will check into the already skimmed rock. Is it heavier?


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## Aeuja

I have been taping for years , my first problem with class 5ing a wall with direct sunlight. Troweled & rolled, still flashes bad. Need some input please.


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## smisner50s

Aeuja said:


> I have been taping for years , my first problem with class 5ing a wall with direct sunlight. Troweled & rolled, still flashes bad. Need some input please.


 first off make sure your level 4 finish is perfect and sanded perfect...you can roll it on and pull it back off leaving a little bit on ....spray a l5 surficier primer ...of if you have a good sprayer just thin down some mud and skim the whole wall with joint compound..cross hatching building it up in multi coats...


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## Aeuja

Thx. Here is the situation. Been class 5'd with trowel, sanded with light, primed & then when sunlight cAme in, it sucked. It has been rolled with no change and again coated. Sunlight still picks up all the flashing. In a house where all trades are overlapping since day one. Losing my mind. Would like to spray on but too much millwork around. Any suggestions? Thx


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## smisner50s

Aeuja said:


> Thx. Here is the situation. Been class 5'd with trowel, sanded with light, primed & then when sunlight cAme in, it sucked. It has been rolled with no change and again coated. Sunlight still picks up all the flashing. In a house where all trades are overlapping since day one. Losing my mind. Would like to spray on but too much millwork around. Any suggestions? Thx


 either poor quality in products...or poor quality in craftsmanship...that what it boils down to ..mask off everything good and spray...some guys can never achive a good level 5...and some guys.l4 looks level 5


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## Aeuja

*level 5*

thanks, the problem has been too many tapers overlapping each others work and that never works:thumbsup:


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## Tim0282

We have been spraying Never/Miss Final coat. It is amazing stuff.
Completely takes care of the flashing. Spray with a Titan 1200SF. Mix the mud between box and angle mud. Sprays like a dream.
Don't sand it or touch it after spraying. Lays down very nice!


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## smisner50s

Tim0282 said:


> We have been spraying Never/Miss Final coat. It is amazing stuff.
> Completely takes care of the flashing. Spray with a Titan 1200SF. Mix the mud between box and angle mud. Sprays like a dream.
> Don't sand it or touch it after spraying. Lays down very nice!


Thanks...im gonna order some up...sucks nobody stocks it around here..I got a new mark 4


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## Aeuja

my boss is using level 5 coat by hamilton in a 5 gallon pail. is this a product you mix with the mud and then spray on?


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## Tim0282

Aeuja said:


> my boss is using level 5 coat by hamilton in a 5 gallon pail. is this a product you mix with the mud and then spray on?


No. You probably won't want to mix this with mud. I've tried that sort of thing. Doesn't work very good. 
Use Never/Miss Final Coat to mix with the mud.


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## ChicagoTaper215

With all due respect to all the old schoolers, I think level 5 is a waste of time. I paint my own jobs and have never been called back to fix a butt joint cuz it's flashing after the primer? How many of you guys prime your own jobs and still see imperfections, flashing? There is a simple solution to all that so called "flashing"... I've seen it at other jobs that I had to go fix.....


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## 2buckcanuck

ChicagoTaper215 said:


> With all due respect to all the old schoolers, I think level 5 is a waste of time. I paint my own jobs and have never been called back to fix a butt joint cuz it's flashing after the primer? How many of you guys prime your own jobs and still see imperfections, flashing? There is a simple solution to all that so called "flashing"... I've seen it at other jobs that I had to go fix.....


Actually, I think most of the old schoolers would agree with you :yes:

But one reason your having no problems is because your doing your own painting, meaning your doing it right.Some painters think mixing all their left over flat paint makes for a good primer, will be one point ill make. I don't see no need to do a whole house in level 5, maybe on the rare occasion where theres critical lighting. But a proper level 4 tape job and a PROFESSIONAL painter should be good enough.

But in commercial there is a need some times, say like a dentist's room, they need the best lighting possible, so their looking for high gloss walls and something that is washable. So level 5 is the best solution in those cases.

Just my 2bucks worth:yes:


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## ChicagoTaper215

2buckcanuck said:


> Actually, I think most of the old schoolers would agree with you :yes:
> 
> But one reason your having no problems is because your doing your own painting, meaning your doing it right.Some painters think mixing all their left over flat paint makes for a good primer, will be one point ill make. I don't see no need to do a whole house in level 5, maybe on the rare occasion where theres critical lighting. But a proper level 4 tape job and a PROFESSIONAL painter should be good enough.
> 
> But in commercial there is a need some times, say like a dentist's room, they need the best lighting possible, so their looking for high gloss walls and something that is washable. So level 5 is the best solution in those cases.
> 
> Just my 2bucks worth:yes:


:thumbup: your right. Alot of painters do mix their leftover but I would never unless it's a custom color. Flat paint is all you need, for example... Today I finished bout 50 sheets. Sanded, and sprayed with my sprayer. Used sherwin-Williams CHB flat for ceilings. Used it as a primer as well and man was the homeowner pleased, he was trying to have me use new drywall primer from HD but when I explained to him about why CHB was better he saw the difference. He is in the trades as well and knows a thing or 2 about butt joints, flashing, etc. Going to paint the colors they chose and will take pics and post them on here before and after. Oh yeah...commercial is another story but your right on that one 2buck....ur the man!:thumbup:


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## mudslingr

2buckcanuck said:


> Actually, I think most of the old schoolers would agree with you :yes:


100% agreed !:yes:


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## FabFour

Everyone here needs to understand what causes flashing or photographing. A good High build primer is the best answer. What causes the flashing or photographing is the different rate at which the finish paint drys. IE, over drywall paper the finish paint drys at a different rate compared to the finish paint over an area that is all compound. The different rate of dry time causes a different sheen to the finish paint. A good high build will allow all the finish paint to dry at the same rate over the entire surface of the walls or ceilings. Years ago, before we had High build primers it was common practice to skim coat walls to control flashing. In my opinion the skim coating is old school and the faster and better way is to spray the walls with a good high build primer. 

FabFour


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## moore

Well...... call me old school.. ..


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## 2buckcanuck

moore said:


> Well...... call me old school.. ..


:whistling2::whistling2:


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## sdrdrywall

Aww man you guys finally got my picture:jester:


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## M T Buckets Painting

Here is a caveman like picture of me. Years ago, I used to be a hardcore biker. I have evolved.


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## 2buckcanuck

M T Buckets Painting said:


> Here is a caveman like picture of me. Years ago, I used to be a hardcore biker. I have evolved.


I was checking out this site to see if I could make some money off you MT http://www.amw.com/

Nothing .........................................................yet


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## M T Buckets Painting

As you can see in my avatar, I no longer look like that. I used to run with the most unsavory characters kinown to man. And as a matter of fact, I was once quite an unsavory character. None of my old Brothers ever made it to AMW, but alot of them are locked up. 

I finally woke up and realized that my life was headed in the wrong direction.

P.S. I donated a 27" pony tail to Locks of Love.


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## Tim0282

FabFour said:


> Everyone here needs to understand what causes flashing or photographing. A good High build primer is the best answer. What causes the flashing or photographing is the different rate at which the finish paint drys. IE, over drywall paper the finish paint drys at a different rate compared to the finish paint over an area that is all compound. The different rate of dry time causes a different sheen to the finish paint. A good high build will allow all the finish paint to dry at the same rate over the entire surface of the walls or ceilings. Years ago, before we had High build primers it was common practice to skim coat walls to control flashing. In my opinion the skim coating is old school and the faster and better way is to spray the walls with a good high build primer.
> 
> FabFour


I don't entirely agree with you. The High Build primer will let the paint dry consistently. But it won't solve the problem that the mud is smoother than the paper. That is the biggest problem of joint flash. Not as much a difference in sheen as in smoothness. Smoother mud on the joint allows the light to deflect off of it differently. Again, throwing my opinion out here. Good way to get my head cut off!


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## moore

M T Buckets Painting said:


> As you can see in my avatar, I no longer look like that. I used to run with the most unsavory characters kinown to man. And as a matter of fact, I was once quite an unsavory character. None of my old Brothers ever made it to AMW, but alot of them are locked up.
> 
> I finally woke up and realized that my life was headed in the wrong direction.
> 
> P.S. I donated a 27" pony tail to Locks of Love.


I almost believe you..


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## moore

In a few years after the home has gone through It's own 5 phases does a phase 5 finish really matter??


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## Tim0282

moore said:


> In a few years after the home has gone through It's own 5 phases does a phase 5 finish really matter??


Matter of fact, a level 5 might be easier to fix, match, than a level four with texture. 
It is drywall on wet wood, it is going to crack somewhere when the wood dries.


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## moore

Tim0282 said:


> Matter of fact, a level 5 might be easier to fix, match, than a level four with texture.
> It is drywall on wet wood, it is going to crack somewhere when the wood dries.


yep.. your right..:yes:


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## Kiwiman

M T Buckets Painting said:


> Here is a caveman like picture of me. Years ago, I used to be a hardcore biker. I have evolved.


Let me guess.....you either had kids about the same time you evolved, or a bad acid trip scared you straight :whistling2:


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## SlimPickins

FabFour said:


> Everyone here needs to understand what causes flashing or photographing. A good High build primer is the best answer. What causes the flashing or photographing is the different rate at which the finish paint drys. IE, over drywall paper the finish paint drys at a different rate compared to the finish paint over an area that is all compound. The different rate of dry time causes a different sheen to the finish paint. A good high build will allow all the finish paint to dry at the same rate over the entire surface of the walls or ceilings. Years ago, before we had High build primers it was common practice to skim coat walls to control flashing. In my opinion the skim coating is old school and the faster and better way is to spray the walls with a good high build primer.
> 
> FabFour


Really? So if the paint takes longer to dry because it's humid or cool it's not going to have the stated sheen? Cool.....how long do I have to let it sit there until it becomes flat and all my flashing issues go away?

Like it's been said, flashing (in smooth wall) is _primarily _due to texture difference between paper and mud. Not to mention sub-standard joint coverage:whistling2: Now, I could see the absorption rate playing a role in the back-roll, where the mud on the joints causes the paint to tack up and have less stipple......

It takes a good spray-man to prime an L5.... It's gotta be somewhere between Orange Peel primer and not enough :laughing:


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## Tim0282

We just sanded a level 5 job today. 28,000 feet of rock. The painter showed up this afternoon to check the job. (make sure the drywall was up to his standard)
He said it was as close to flawless as possible. I thanked him and continued. He said he was delivering primer to start tomorrow. Later I looked at his "primer". It was PPG Speed Hide Latex eggshell! That's not primer! Needless to say, I made a stink to the job super! He said when he starts painting he owns the job! Riiiight!!! Heard that before. New drywall has to be primed......right?!!?
EVERY joint will flash, unless he knows something I don't. And that is very possible!


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## chris

Tim0282 said:


> We just sanded a level 5 job today. 28,000 feet of rock. The painter showed up this afternoon to check the job. (make sure the drywall was up to his standard)
> He said it was as close to flawless as possible. I thanked him and continued. He said he was delivering primer to start tomorrow. Later I looked at his "primer". It was PPG Speed Hide Latex eggshell! That's not primer! Needless to say, I made a stink to the job super! He said when he starts painting he owns the job! Riiiight!!! Heard that before. New drywall has to be primed......right?!!?
> EVERY joint will flash, unless he knows something I don't. And that is very possible!


 Speed Hide is a good product, and you would be surprised what a GOOD painter can do. I would be more comfortable seeing a specilialty product for level 5 but have seen Good painters use up whatever is around and the finish still be good. A flat would be nicer to see also. Good luck:thumbsup:


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## Tim0282

Thanks Chris! I am trusting for the best! He has painted the rest of the facility and it looks great! It will all be eggshells finish. But no primer, even regular primer? I am shocked. Primer is applied to ensure the finish coat sticks and retains the proper sheen, I thought. I don't claim to be a painter, so I will watch quietly and learn.


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## Bazooka-Joe

kiwiman said:


> let me guess.....you either had kids about the same time you evolved, or a bad acid trip scared can't see straight [you straight ] :whistling2:


:d


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## FabFour

FabFour said:


> Everyone here needs to understand what causes flashing or photographing. A good High build primer is the best answer. What causes the flashing or photographing is the different rate at which the finish paint drys. IE, over drywall paper the finish paint drys at a different rate compared to the finish paint over an area that is all compound. The different rate of dry time causes a different sheen to the finish paint. A good high build will allow all the finish paint to dry at the same rate over the entire surface of the walls or ceilings. Years ago, before we had High build primers it was common practice to skim coat walls to control flashing. In my opinion the skim coating is old school and the faster and better way is to spray the walls with a good high build primer.
> 
> FabFour


Update: Break out a pole sander and brush down the primer after it's dry and you will be amazed how good your level 5 finish will look after the finish paint is on. I'm 61 years old and a second generation drywaller I have well over 45 years experience. Started working for my dad when I was 13 years old at one dollar per hr. Oh, anyone need a good commercial estimator?


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## chris

you should chime in more often FabFour


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## SlimPickins

FabFour said:


> Update: Break out a pole sander and brush down the primer after it's dry and you will be amazed how good your level 5 finish will look after the finish paint is on. I'm 61 years old and a second generation drywaller I have well over 45 years experience. Started working for my dad when I was 13 years old at one dollar per hr. Oh, anyone need a good commercial estimator?


Good advice FabFour...I've always been impressed with just how slick a prime coat turns out when it's been sanded. Found that out when we would go back through to check for fuzz on no-back-roll prime jobs.


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## Justa Hick

yes and no. Yes the sanded paper will fuzz (nap) up when spray painted. Paper fiber swells up like a sponge and dry’s that way. Can be really bad on smooth, also shows through orange peel and even makes knockdown look funny. Can look like grit is in the mud. 

But whose job is it to sand it down after the primer is on? I say the painter. We tape and sand, they prime and paint. If they want to save money not paying someone to back roll as they prime then they can sand it before finish color paint. Their choice when THEY deal with it. If they say is is my fault then they need to go back to paint school. Problem is all the painter know all the builders believe anything painters say, and nothing tapers say. 

Painters have gone so far as to say we spray texture that is to dry! As though is is powdery, or gritty. What a joke. A lot of fuzz only means someone sanded a lot to make sure the mud edges blended to the board. 
Here a lot of painter shoots one coat high build, no primer and walk away without back rolling. Guaranteed bad job. They always blame the taper.
Flashing, photographing etc., comes from the differing smoothness 

between the slick mud surface and the rougher surface on board. Look at the different brands and you will see some are indented with zillions of dimples. Some are smooth. That is why level 5 is meant to skim the whole board with mud. Then it all has the same light reflectance. 
Spray over level 4 does not fill the paper dimples. Only if you wipe it smooth.


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## FabFour

Justa Hick said:


> yes and no. Yes the sanded paper will fuzz (nap) up when spray painted. Paper fiber swells up like a sponge and dry’s that way. Can be really bad on smooth, also shows through orange peel and even makes knockdown look funny. Can look like grit is in the mud.
> 
> But whose job is it to sand it down after the primer is on? I say the painter. We tape and sand, they prime and paint. If they want to save money not paying someone to back roll as they prime then they can sand it before finish color paint. Their choice when THEY deal with it. If they say is is my fault then they need to go back to paint school. Problem is all the painter know all the builders believe anything painters say, and nothing tapers say.
> 
> Painters have gone so far as to say we spray texture that is to dry! As though is is powdery, or gritty. What a joke. A lot of fuzz only means someone sanded a lot to make sure the mud edges blended to the board.
> Here a lot of painter shoots one coat high build, no primer and walk away without back rolling. Guaranteed bad job. They always blame the taper.
> Flashing, photographing etc., comes from the differing smoothness
> 
> between the slick mud surface and the rougher surface on board. Look at the different brands and you will see some are indented with zillions of dimples. Some are smooth. That is why level 5 is meant to skim the whole board with mud. Then it all has the same light reflectance.
> Spray over level 4 does not fill the paper dimples. Only if you wipe it smooth.


I've primed more jobs than I can count. I always back roll. Even with back rolling the Highbuild/primer should be pole sanded before the finish paint is applied. Back when I was just a lad, the paper on sheet rock was smooth and firm. Now all sheet rock has recycled paper and it's softer and fuzzes up very easy when sanded. That's why we should always sand the primer before applying the finish paint. If I don't sand the primer I always tell the painters to brush it down. Most do, some don't. You can't control everything and information is the most important tool you have. Make sure that your General Contractor is educated on the subject. We have a ton of tech info to back us up. Make sure you use it. ie: GA216

FabFour


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## chris

it also helps to wet sponge walls after final sand before prime where paper and mud meet


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## moore




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## P.A. ROCKER

Nobody ever wants L5 around here. They just complain that the finisher did a bad job when they paint with gloss, semigloss or eggshell.


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## PrecisionTaping

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Nobody ever wants L5 around here. They just complain that the finisher did a bad job when they paint with gloss, semigloss or eggshell.


Same here!


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## Capt-sheetrock

Yeah, I agree,, we did some level5 a few years back,,,(I like the tough hide, but black lid works okay too),but then we got hope and change, and now we just seem to get the dura-bond-get-it-done-in-one-day jobs.


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## moore

I do a L5 on all painted ceilings weather they ask for it or not.
It's in my price. It's my ceiling.:yes:


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## cazna

moore said:


> I do a L5 on all painted ceilings weather they ask for it or not.
> It's in my price. It's my ceiling.:yes:


Man your fussy, Or as you say your boards total crap, Its all painted smooth ceilings here, A good level 4 and a good paint is enough, Oh, Your painters suck as well. Honestly though, Unless it has the worst critical light accross it then ceilings are more of a dead spot for us, Not much light gets accross them, And if its all downlights even better, They dont shine any light accross the ceiling. But we do build boring easy houses here, Nothing like what you have to deal with.


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## moore

cazna said:


> Man your fussy, Or as you say your boards total crap, Its all painted smooth ceilings here, A good level 4 and a good paint is enough, Oh, Your painters suck as well. Honestly though, Unless it has the worst critical light accross it then ceilings are more of a dead spot for us, Not much light gets accross them, And if its all downlights even better, They dont shine any light accross the ceiling. But we do build boring easy houses here, Nothing like what you have to deal with.


 Half the time..[these days] I don't know who's coming in behind me. so I atleast want the ceilings to look decent.
I agree ..A good level 4 finish and a sealer/prime before paint is all thats needed.:yes:


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## moore

Why skim over the entire ceiling? If the seams and butts are DONE..Theres no need in going over them again .

Skim /roll-n-wipe only the field. Cut the edges tight then buff the edges when they dry. 

Not sure what to tell you spray guys...?? add more water to your mix to saturate the board with moisture ? That always ends well.:yes:


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## boco

chris said:


> it also helps to wet sponge walls after final sand before prime where paper and mud meet


 i dont use a damp sponge after sanding anymore. With all the recycled paper out there i just use my shop vac as a blower. Lightly hitting the field then angles. Spray on full blast with a good back roll with a 1/2 nap roller. When dry sand with 150 to remove any dirt or debris from boxes , cans, etc..... I use preprite 200 from SWP. Great product for wood or drywall. Walls should look completey covered and after a light scuff should feel like a babies bottom.


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## boco

moore said:


> Why skim over the entire ceiling? If the seams and butts are DONE..Theres no need in going over them again .
> 
> Skim /roll-n-wipe only the field. Cut the edges tight then buff the edges when they dry.
> 
> ]
> Good point. Kinda a waste to skim something thats should aleready be done. Also saves by not having to bag everything off. 2 guys 1 rolling ot on another wipingand you can easily do a house in a day. Of course I dont hit the closets, laundry rooms and stuff covered by cabinets. I always give the option in my bids but lately its just been level 4 and make it perfect.


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## SlimPickins

boco said:


> lately its just been level 4 and make it perfect.


The job I'm on now, the builder asked for a 3 and a 1/2:whistling2:

I told him "I'm sorry, but it looks like you're getting a 3.875 :laughing: 

It would have been a 4, but it's an old house and there's no room in the budget for walls made of mud.


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## chris

Some pics of the job that turned into a L5. Very critical lighting. Window is 20 plus feet high with not even 1" reveal of trim on wall When noon hits it was a pretty scary sight. These walls are some of the hardest Ive done in many years


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## Mudslinger

chris said:


> Some pics of the job that turned into a L5. Very critical lighting. Window is 20 plus feet high with not even 1" reveal of trim on wall When noon hits it was a pretty scary sight. These walls are some of the hardest Ive done in many years


Nice job, L5 can really suck on the jobs with big windows. The reflection off the snow really doesn't help a guy out either. Gotta love taping in shorts in the middle of winter lol. My favorite is sweating my a** off and slamming a cold coke in front of a window when the siders or roofers are working outside in the cold.:whistling2:


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## moore

Mudslinger said:


> Nice job, L5 can really suck on the jobs with big windows. The reflection off the snow really doesn't help a guy out either. Gotta love taping in shorts in the middle of winter lol. My favorite is sweating my a** off and slamming a cold coke in front of a window when the siders or roofers are working outside in the cold.:whistling2:


 If It's too cold to wear shorts. It's too cold to finish sheetrock!
I love that sayin Chris!!:thumbsup:


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## moore

chris said:


> Some pics of the job that turned into a L5. Very critical lighting. Window is 20 plus feet high with not even 1" reveal of trim on wall When noon hits it was a pretty scary sight. These walls are some of the hardest Ive done in many years


 black poly over the windows . Cut gods light out!
Then a 500 watt halogen will tell the whole story.


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## boco

FabFour said:


> Everyone here needs to understand what causes flashing or photographing. A good High build primer is the best answer. What causes the flashing or photographing is the different rate at which the finish paint drys. IE, over drywall paper the finish paint drys at a different rate compared to the finish paint over an area that is all compound. The different rate of dry time causes a different sheen to the finish paint. A good high build will allow all the finish paint to dry at the same rate over the entire surface of the walls or ceilings. Years ago, before we had High build primers it was common practice to skim coat walls to control flashing. In my opinion the skim coating is old school and the faster and better way is to spray the walls with a good high build primer.
> 
> FabFour


 So what your saying is in direct sunlight or a 300w bulb theres no difference between level 5 and a high build primer. LOL 2 words for ya joint banding


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> black poly over the windows . Cut gods light out!
> Then a 500 watt halogen will tell the whole story.


In the right angle, direct sun makes a halogen look like a nightlight.

When I used to study physics and astronomy, and in my photography studies as well, we talked about point sources of light versus diffused light situations. A halogen is effective because it closely resembles a point source. The problem with halogen lights is the reflective screen behind the bulb. Now, instead of a glaring bulb you have a much larger light source....the screen's reflective property. If you want an effective halogen for "check-out" work, remove the screen and paint it black with high-heat enamel (flat black). Now you'll have a point source (or very nearly). However, the sun is still the most potent point source of light, it's just a little speck a long way away....it will cast the most horrible shadows if the angle is right....I've seen work that looks pretty good under a halogen (which doesn't have the power to reveal the whole wall properly) suddenly turn to ass-plaster in low afternoon sunlight.

This whole point source thing is why people want to puke when they use a simple flash-light on their walls in the dark.


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## SlimPickins

I just found this:

http://www.awci.org/cd/pdfs/9705_b.pdf


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## Square Foot

SlimPickins said:


> In the right angle, direct sun makes a halogen look like a nightlight.
> 
> When I used to study physics and astronomy, and in my photography studies as well, we talked about point sources of light versus diffused light situations. A halogen is effective because it closely resembles a point source. The problem with halogen lights is the reflective screen behind the bulb. Now, instead of a glaring bulb you have a much larger light source....the screen's reflective property. If you want an effective halogen for "check-out" work, remove the screen and paint it black with high-heat enamel (flat black). Now you'll have a point source (or very nearly). However, the sun is still the most potent point source of light, it's just a little speck a long way away....it will cast the most horrible shadows if the angle is right....I've seen work that looks pretty good under a halogen (which doesn't have the power to reveal the whole wall properly) suddenly turn to ass-plaster in low afternoon sunlight.
> 
> This whole point source thing is why people want to puke when they use a simple flash-light on their walls in the dark.


Yes, a flashlight can be a dangerous thing but I still use one with a > diffuser < for sanding, so I don't have to drag a cord around.

Sheetrock is skin on the bones, it follows what's there. Take that same high intensity light, shine across the wall ( no diffuser ) before any tape/compound goes on and see all the humps, valleys and draw-in surrounding the screws... Scary stuff.

Garbage wood, framers that don't give a crap which way the crown goes, brackets and blocking not sitting flush, sheetrock production inconsistencies all makes our job such a joy.


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## chris

I should be back there on Monday, I will take a pic at high noon They are using a semi gloss as well:furious:


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## SlimPickins

chris said:


> They are using a semi gloss as well:furious:


 You poor poor man. Well, at least it's not dark gloss, right? :laughing:


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## moore

SlimPickins said:


> In the right angle, direct sun makes a halogen look like a nightlight.
> 
> When I used to study physics and astronomy, and in my photography studies as well, we talked about point sources of light versus diffused light situations. A halogen is effective because it closely resembles a point source. The problem with halogen lights is the reflective screen behind the bulb. Now, instead of a glaring bulb you have a much larger light source....the screen's reflective property. If you want an effective halogen for "check-out" work, remove the screen and paint it black with high-heat enamel (flat black). Now you'll have a point source (or very nearly). However, the sun is still the most potent point source of light, it's just a little speck a long way away....it will cast the most horrible shadows if the angle is right....I've seen work that looks pretty good under a halogen (which doesn't have the power to reveal the whole wall properly) suddenly turn to ass-plaster in low afternoon sunlight.
> 
> This whole point source thing is why people want to puke when they use a simple flash-light on their walls in the dark.


 OK Professor..That low angle light /critical lighting only comes around sunrise/noon/sunset..I'm there all day. If I try to light check a room with many windows and doors the halogen shows me nothing till i shut Gods light out. 
Ever had a h/o or g/c walk in and say .''.OH ..It looks great!!! It's ready to paint right?? Do you even have to sand???'' When you've only just finished up the block coat:blink:...They don't know what there looking at cause they can't see it.. 

Is cutting out Gods light on sand day to create the perfect finish overkill??? Yep! cause drywall goes to chit within 3-5 years :yes: 
If my work holds up till the first year is out ..then I did what they paid me to do. 

You boys out west got it sweet ..textured walls and ceilings with low humidity..Out here it's all slick [mostly] with high humidity..should be the other way around:blink:


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## moore

Square Foot said:


> Yes, a flashlight can be a dangerous thing but I still use one with a > diffuser < for sanding, so I don't have to drag a cord around.
> 
> Sheetrock is skin on the bones, it follows what's there. Take that same high intensity light, shine across the wall ( no diffuser ) before any tape/compound goes on and see all the humps, valleys and draw-in surrounding the screws... Scary stuff.
> 
> Garbage wood, framers that don't give a crap which way the crown goes, brackets and blocking not sitting flush, sheetrock production inconsistencies all makes our job such a joy.


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## SlimPickins

Moore, I wrote you a nice lengthy, friendly reply about how I agree with you on halogen use but it disappeared:furious:

I don't feel like typing it all out again, but in short.....if you paint the reflector flat black, your light will be even better at showing flaws when you put it as close to the wall as it will go:thumbsup:


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## moore

SlimPickins said:


> Moore, I wrote you a nice lengthy, friendly reply about how I agree with you on halogen use but it disappeared:furious:
> 
> I don't fell like typing it all out again, but in short.....if you paint the reflector flat black, your light will be even better at showing flaws when you put it as close to the wall as it will go:thumbsup:


 Don't cha hate it when that happens! ya write a book then they steal it from ya!


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## Square Foot

Dealing with the same, Moore.

The framing crew of one of the builders I work for, pretty much want to kill me. I told the builder to go back and tell them...." I'm not here trying to hurt your feelings but I'm also not here to do your job for you"


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## boco

moore said:


>


 Wow No wonder your taping only lasts a few years.
i always explain to my customers that drywall is a system that startrs from the framing to the final paint. mess one thing up and problems occur. now for them angles my rockers would help me out there. They know damn well I know how to use a screw gun to remove boards and will charge for my time. The other cheaper option is original stait flex (less then 10 bucks per roll). Prefill and do your best to straiten. Then charge $1.00 per ft to install the SF. Also attach a memo to final invoice of no warranty and why its voided.


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## moore

boco said:


> Wow No wonder your taping only lasts a few years.
> i always explain to my customers that drywall is a system that startrs from the framing to the final paint. mess one thing up and problems occur. now for them angles my rockers would help me out there. They know damn well I know how to use a screw gun to remove boards and will charge for my time. The other cheaper option is original stait flex (less then 10 bucks per roll). Prefill and do your best to straiten. Then charge $1.00 per ft to install the SF. Also attach a memo to final invoice of no warranty and why its voided.


 Go back and look at a wood frame home you did 5 years ago.
Heating the house 2 weeks before the rock is staged won't cut it.
It takes atleast 1 year or more for that green wet timber to cure out .. Strait flex original is an iffy ok for up-n-downs ,,but I would never use it on a ceiling angle 90 degree or off angle.
No matter how bad a 90 is I can straightin it out and make the paper work:thumbsup: Paper gives.


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## boco

I actually do go back and do alot of repaints. i think the truss lift is my worst enemy. No biggie though as i can fix with SF or just add crown molding. i think the main objective if for the walls being flat and the ceilings looking good at nite. Screw pops, cracks in angles, and bead shrinkage is expected. Thats just cosmetic. as lond as your stuff is flat and the tapes not peeling off the walls you have done your job. Its up to the home owner to do maintanance not the drywaller. As for the using strait flex the reason i use it cause most GCs dont know the difference between no coat or strait flex so i can charge then the same as i do for no coat. $1 ft adds up quick. Dont get pissed just bill accordingly


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## moore

boco said:


> I actually do go back and do alot of repaints. i think the truss lift is my worst enemy. No biggie though as i can fix with SF or just add crown molding. i think the main objective if for the walls being flat and the ceilings looking good at nite. Screw pops, cracks in angles, and bead shrinkage is expected. Thats just cosmetic. as lond as your stuff is flat and the tapes not peeling off the walls you have done your job. Its up to the home owner to do maintanance not the drywaller. As for the using strait flex the reason i use it cause most GCs dont know the difference between no coat or strait flex so i can charge then the same as i do for no coat. $1 ft adds up quick. Dont get pissed just bill accordingly


 Boco..If I charged accordingly . I could have retired years ago.:yes:


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## Mudshark

boco said:


> I actually do go back and do alot of repaints. i think the truss lift is my worst enemy. No biggie though as i can fix with SF or just add crown molding. i think the main objective if for the walls being flat and the ceilings looking good at nite. *Screw pops, cracks in angles, and bead shrinkage is expected. Thats just cosmetic.* as lond as your stuff is flat and the tapes not peeling off the walls you have done your job. *Its up to the home owner to do maintanance not the drywaller*. As for the using strait flex the reason i use it cause most GCs dont know the difference between no coat or strait flex so i can charge then the same as i do for no coat. $1 ft adds up quick. Dont get pissed just bill accordingly





I believe we are hired to make the homes cosmetically appealling so no I dont think it is expected. It can happen but should be avoided. We cant expect the homeowner to fix all our mistakes.


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## moore

Mudshark said:


> I believe we are hired to make the homes cosmetically appealling so no I dont think it is expected. It can happen but should be avoided. We cant expect the homeowner to fix all our mistakes.


 But bead crush /screw pops and truss lift is due to green lumber and the expansion/contraction of metals and wood..So It can't be avoided. That's why I prefer to work for the older middle age [my age] folks that have built before ..They know what to expect and willing to pay more for better products . The young couple that just bought there first new home think of it as if it's a new car. If they keep it clean It will stay perfect forever NOT! 


leave it for the next guy....The drywall man. sparkys /plumbers/havc/framers /G/C...They have all been hard wired..leave it for the next guy!! 
If you want to point fingers point em at that broken down ole fellow walkin out to his truck with mud all over him! He's the reason that cricket crawled in behind your freezer...:yes:


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## Square Foot

"But bead crush /screw pops and truss lift is due to green lumber and the expansion/contraction of metals and wood"

Absolutely!

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-023-wood-is-good-but-strange


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## boco

Mudshark said:


> I believe we are hired to make the homes cosmetically appealling so no I dont think it is expected. It can happen but should be avoided. We cant expect the homeowner to fix all our mistakes.


 i dont consider lumber that is going to dry up to a 1/4 inch my mistake. It will happen and there no way to avoid it. Not to mention that houses expand and contract during different seasons. And no I am not going back to a home and fix any settling issues after the first year. At least not for free. My question to you is how do I avoid this?


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## moore

boco said:


> i dont consider lumber that is going to dry up to a 1/4 inch my mistake. It will happen and there no way to avoid it. Not to mention that houses expand and contract during different seasons. And no I am not going back to a home and fix any settling issues after the first year. At least not for free. My question to you is how do I avoid this?


 After the house is ''dried in''...wait 1 year before you hang @ finish the board.


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## gazman

boco said:


> My question to you is how do I avoid this?


Use dry lumber. Or steel studs.


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## bmitch

resilient bar,glue,expansion joints where required are methods i insist on.if the gc or h\o think otherwise ,than theres a good possibility i won't do the job.these methods are'nt a cure all but at least i'm far more confident with the results than not using them.its how i protect my rep on quality.


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## chris

Some pics of the killer window wall


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## gazman

That sure is nasty light :yes:.


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## moore

chris said:


> Some pics of the killer window wall


It looks great Chris ! You worry too much .. If they want flawless? ...wood!


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## keke

Only looking at these photos I can get your pain


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## DrywallerDustin

I'm impressed with your mad level 5 skills, Chris
It seems the majority of tapers I've worked with in the past decade or so don't know how to properly apply a level 5 skim coat, Apparently they don't understand the "skim" part of that and they apply a lot of mud, usually creating problems where there may have been none.
It's refreshing to meet a bunch of people who know how to do things right, even if they are spread across the nation, or even the world.:thumbup:


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## chris

I took these pics at lunch and skimmed it 1 more time ( last Tuesday) I havnt been back since, the builder wasnt 100% "caught up" to me:blink: When I get back to finish???? I will get a pic. Thank you guys:thumbsup:


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## Square Foot

DrywallerDustin said:


> I'm impressed with your mad level 5 skills, Chris
> It seems the majority of tapers I've worked with in the past decade or so don't know how to properly apply a level 5 skim coat, Apparently they don't understand the "skim" part of that and they apply a lot of mud, usually creating problems where there may have been none.
> It's refreshing to meet a bunch of people who know how to do things right, even if they are spread across the nation, or even the world.:thumbup:


This depends. I have seen the "put it on, take it off" approach, still fail in certain lighting conditions.

You can leave it thicker by letting it absorb into the substrate longer and still pull the wet back off without leaving lines or thickness variations. You just have to know when to take it off.


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## moore

Square Foot said:


> This depends. I have seen the "put it on, take it off" approach, still fail in certain lighting conditions.
> 
> You can leave it thicker by letting it absorb into the substrate longer and still pull the wet back off without leaving lines or thickness variations. You just have to know when to take it off.


 The type of mud makes a big difference too.


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## Mr.Brightstar

moore said:


> The type of mud makes a big difference too.


Base coat.


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## boco

chris said:


> I took these pics at lunch and skimmed it 1 more time ( last Tuesday) I havnt been back since, the builder wasnt 100% "caught up" to me:blink: When I get back to finish???? I will get a pic. Thank you guys:thumbsup:


 Nice job. I was wondering what type of mud do you use for skimm coating? Also do you ever tint the mud? Anytime I do level 5 my mantra is wax on. Wax off. Danielson.


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## chris

boco said:


> Nice job. I was wondering what type of mud do you use for skimm coating? Also do you ever tint the mud? Anytime I do level 5 my mantra is wax on. Wax off. Danielson.


 We use lite weight all purpose, Hamiltons. I will usually skim out 4 or 5 knife widths ( 5 or 6 foot) then wipe off. After Ive done a couple sections I will toss the mud thats in my pan into a different bucket. After we empty a bucket of the soupier mud I will thin down the recycled stuff and use again. Once that stuff starts getting thick ( in pan) and making your wrist ache we toss it and get some fresh:yes: . Keeping a consistent mud thickness while skimming is key:yes: If one guys spreading soup and one guys spreading cement it makes for a pretty ugly skim, even when pulling it off. My goal on these walls is to have zero touch up after prime:thumbsup:


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## Mr.Brightstar

moore said:


> The type of mud makes a big difference too.


Top coat


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