# The Dollars are in the Details



## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

Because those who procure construction services, the customers we service, are driven by the mantra "cheaper is better", we are forever trying to "keep our glasses half full". Just when we think we've found a clever way to put some money back in our pockets, someone comes along and commoditizes the means and methods of our craft and finds a way for automatons who will work for peanut shells to put the work in-place ... changing the way all things are measured.

I got into construction because it satisfied my needs comprehensively ... mind, body and soul .... physics, physical, and philosophical. I love the challenge of solving problems, dealing with dilemmas, and managing predicaments. I love the challenge of finding the dollars in the details.

Knowing that the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts when those parts are engaged, interacting, participating and contributing to a better whole ... knowing that customers are always looking for more choices and vote for those choices with their dollars ... what details do you see as gold mines worth mining for dollars?


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Field General said:


> what details do you see as gold mines worth mining for dollars?


Shoot all the Illegals !


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Field General said:


> Because those who procure construction services, the customers we service, are driven by the mantra "cheaper is better", we are forever trying to "keep our glasses half full". Just when we think we've found a clever way to put some money back in our pockets, someone comes along and commoditizes the means and methods of our craft and finds a way for automatons who will work for peanut shells to put the work in-place ... changing the way all things are measured.
> 
> I got into construction because it satisfied my needs comprehensively ... mind, body and soul .... physics, physical, and philosophical. I love the challenge of solving problems, dealing with dilemmas, and managing predicaments. I love the challenge of finding the dollars in the details.
> 
> Knowing that the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts when those parts are engaged, interacting, participating and contributing to a better whole ... knowing that customers are always looking for more choices and vote for those choices with their dollars ... what details do you see as gold mines worth mining for dollars?


SERVICE is number #1. In a day and age when corporate LW Supply is buying everything up, we had a small supply house called SF Gravel. Herbie was legendary for being available from 2am on. You could pull in at 4:00 am and get loaded with what you need, or place orders. Being able to fly into SF, get loaded, and be on the job by start time whether it was 5 or 6 am was awesome. Most others don't start until 6 am. Just my thoughts. For those of you that don't live in a major metropolis you will not understand.


----------



## Magic (Feb 20, 2014)

moore said:


> Shoot all the Illegals !


Hold up, whos gunna hang our rock? Id be lost without my mexican hangers in my area. The mexican finishers suck here and only crappy builders let mexican finishers on their jobs. :whistling2:


----------



## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

moore said:


> Shoot all the Illegals !


Can't make a living because of the exploitation of them, can't shoot them.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Field General said:


> Can't make a living because of the exploitation of them, can't shoot them.


LOL! I was just kidding. Would be nice If we could go back to the way It was . In the 60s 70s 80s on up to mid 90s my old man never had to bid against a D/C with a van full of Illegals . I guess making your mark and proving your work is above average Is what it takes no matter who your up again'st .


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

I'll have to disagree on the service is everything thing. 
If you don't like my work,,, get someone else.
If you constantly have issues not pertaining to my work and you want me to fix for free,,, get someone else.
If you are a slow-pay client,,, get someone else.
If you're generally a PITA,,, get someone else.
I could go on but you get the idea.


----------



## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

moore said:


> LOL! I was just kidding. Would be nice If we could go back to the way It was . In the 60s 70s 80s on up to mid 90s my old man never had to bid against a D/C with a van full of Illegals . I guess making your mark and proving your work is above average Is what it takes no matter who your up again'st .


Knew you were kidding ... Just a play on words, "Can't live with 'em, an't live without 'em" ... "Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em" ... "Can't make a living with others exploiting them, can't shoot them." ...

The only way I see to compete against the corrupt pimps of labor is to leverage technology.


----------



## nodnarb (Apr 25, 2014)

Magic said:


> Hold up, whos gunna hang our rock? Id be lost without my mexican hangers in my area. The mexican finishers suck here and only crappy builders let mexican finishers on their jobs. :whistling2:


DIAF. You guys exploiting them are worse than the illegals working for so little.

They are trying to make a living you are capitolizing on that and in turn  over your fellow white man.


----------



## Empirical (May 13, 2014)

I used to be against Hiring Mexican crews, but adapted to the ways of the world. You can fight against it all you want, but all your going to do is loose out on the big jobs. I used to think it was exploitation because they worked for ten cents less then my American hangers, but I did the math. I have a 3 man crew of Mexican hangers that can hang 10,000sq in one day for ten cents less then my American 3 man crew that takes three days to hang the same size house. The Mexican crew makes way more money! Sure I have to do a little more cut out and pre fill, but that only takes an hour for an extra grand in my pocket.

I know that may not sit well with everyone, but I held out until I was 40 years old lol. I need to make up for my slowing down body. cant bust my ass like I used too. Also my wife is an immigrant to this country, and she is the best thing that ever happened to me!


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Like the General said,,, it's exploitation. I haven't seen any Mexi crews hang more , per man hour worked, than any other crews. They work very long hours, get paid less, they don't pay taxes.


----------



## jackleg (Jan 22, 2008)

who pays the taxes on the money the illegals make?


----------



## nodnarb (Apr 25, 2014)

Im tired of excuses. I am a white hanger and my work speaks for itself. There are plenty of competitively priced crews whose backs ARE dry. There are also quite a few LEGAL mexicans, this isnt as much of a race thing as it is an employer thing. 

And hiring illegals screws everyone but the PRICK profiteering off of their cheap labor. Hiring illegals is just slowly cutting your own throat, you are teaching them YOUR job. Tons of hispanic shady contractors these days. Im off my soabbox but from me to anyone here to hires some shoddy illegal over a white man asking for a living wage FU*K YOU. 



Empirical said:


> I used to be against Hiring Mexican crews, but adapted to the ways of the world. You can fight against it all you want, but all your going to do is loose out on the big jobs. I used to think it was exploitation because they worked for ten cents less then my American hangers, but I did the math. I have a 3 man crew of Mexican hangers that can hang 10,000sq in one day for ten cents less then my American 3 man crew that takes three days to hang the same size house. The Mexican crew makes way more money! Sure I have to do a little more cut out and pre fill, but that only takes an hour for an extra grand in my pocket.
> 
> I know that may not sit well with everyone, but I held out until I was 40 years old lol. I need to make up for my slowing down body. cant bust my ass like I used too. Also my wife is an immigrant to this country, and she is the best thing that ever happened to me!


Fu*k you. Thats the lamest excuse I can fathom . "Im old so I can cut corners hiring illegals" . Just my .02 . You know the sketchy contractor everyone talks about using Juan to pump of garbage work for criminally low prices? Today we found out its YOU.


----------



## Empirical (May 13, 2014)

I have a w9 and a work comp policy from them. Nothing illegal about it. As far as them working longer hours, that's bull. Also they named there price when I met them. Was I supposed to tell them they are not charging me enough? No shoddy work going on at my company. I am not a big company, I stand behind all my work and do most of the finishing. I'm just not going to get pushed under the ground by all the big drywall businesses because I am too proud to play on the same field. Anyway, there are only a couple American born hanging crews left around here. All the American kids want to do is play video games.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

The past few posts deserve a comment:

Some call me a liberal for my support of unions, and at Fidelity they tell me I'm very conservative. We should NEVER tell another member here to fawk off due to a disagreement!

When you think about a guy sitting in jail for 20 years in Texas for having a joint, and in California they let illegal aliens walk away when pulled over just pisses me off. However, I've had to hire these people also. They would hand me a fake SS card, and drivers license, and I'd fill out the I-9, and W-4, and put these fools too work. 

Politicians from both parties have failed us. If money is being paid into SS on behalf of Juan Garcia, and the number is assigned to Joe Brown then the employer should be notified they're in violation of the law. Nope, enforcement doesn't happen, and jobs that used to be by teenagers go to illegal aliens, because they employers love people they can take advantage of. In the meantime, law abiding citizens rights are trampled.

I worked for a guy who would call SS and confirm numbers, and wouldn't let guys work if it wasn't good. The union couldn't stop him because he had the right to abide by the law rather than overlook it.

I'm currently reading (I read a lot) Affluence & Influence about how the 1% gets what they want in Washington. The 1% wants these illegals to drive down American wages, and there's even a News network that does their bidding for them. How can lower wages be good for the American working class? in Denmark minimum wage is $21 per hour and a Big mac is 50 cents higher. If consumer spending is 70% of our economy and people have more to spend how can it be bad?

Off soap box, and to the couch to read!


----------



## nodnarb (Apr 25, 2014)

Excuses excuses, I stand by what I said.

You are cutting our throats. We can hemhaw around it all you want but I call em like I see em.


----------



## Empirical (May 13, 2014)

Same debate has been going on forever. I did not start my own business to split profit with people I sub contract with. I am not cutting anyones throat but my own if I did that. If you want to get paid more for hanging then get the builders to pay contractors more. Blame me all you want.


----------



## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

Value = Benefit/Cost ... "Dollar per hour rate" should be interpreted as a metric that represents the value in dollars of what is produced in an hour, not dollars spent for your time spent ... again, the pimp/whore paradigm.

We get what we value, the way that we value it, for the reason that we value it. What do we value?
We get what we measure, how we measure it, and why we measure what we measure the way that we measure it. What are we measuring?

Form follows function and/or dysfunction: The reason one invests his time, talents, effort and money is to realize a return in that investment that exceeds the cost to realize that return. The hidden costs of exploiting an illegal workforce far exceeds the benefit.

In the USA we are all equal under the law (at least that's what they're telling us). The balance of the exchange of value-for-value becomes corrupted when those laws are broken. 

The rule of thumb for the maximum percentage of your income that should go to pay rent or mortgage in order to live is around 25%. Do the math.

Cost of living in the USA: 
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=United+States

Cost of living in Mexico
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=United+States&displayCurrency=MXN

$/Unit = $/Hr x Hrs/Units produced.

Example:

$0.20/SF = $40.00/hr x .005 hrs/sf (1600 SF per day)
$0.10/SF = $20.00/hr x .005 hrs/sf (1600 SF per day)
$0.10/SF = $40.00/hr x .0025 hrs/sf (3200 SF per day)


----------



## evolve991 (Jan 24, 2008)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> I'll have to disagree on the service is everything thing.
> If you don't like my work,,, get someone else.
> If you constantly have issues not pertaining to my work and you want me to fix for free,,, get someone else.
> If you are a slow-pay client,,, get someone else.
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Integrity!!! We are professionals who produce a certain level of quality using methods we prefer and employ. 
Yes there are some slow times with work but we do not EVER work for free. We can sit home for free. All else pays. 
And for those who exploit illegals YOU are what has destroyed our TRADE and you collaborated with others who've destroyed our ECONOMY. DONT tell me " it's the market", whatever order it happened in you and your "peers" made it commonplace to both cut fellow American construction workers throats and sham homeowners with butchered gyptrash, of course they like "cheap" but they don't know what they're looking at either.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

evolve991 said:


> " but they don't know what they're looking at either.


They will! And when they need It properly repaired.. will they call the original D/C ? ......:no::no: !!


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm not uptight about illegals in the trade and I have some experience in the field with them. Around here the best hangers will do 40-50 4X12's in eight hours regardless of ethnic background.
Labeling Mexicans as illegals isn't fair either. I've dealt with some Guatemalans and Canadians flying under the radar. 

A Mexican crew leader I knew, Ramone, explained to me how he ran things.
He gave a cut-rate price to a DC to get the work.
He would keep a hang crew of 6-10 hangers and the same for finishing.
He would supply everything they needed to preform at work, keep a roof over their heads, and supply transportation.
The workers would come in illegally.
They could come and go from the US and Mexico at their own discretion depending on what their lives demanded. If they needed to come and work, they did, if they had to go home for what ever reason, they would go home.
The workers ultimate goal, he explained, would be to bank between 30-40 grand.
Once they sent that much money home they would retire to their village, wealthy.
Ramone didn't get his hands on the work, he just bank rolled the operation off the laborer's wages and took his cut.
He was paid as a subcontractor and issued a 1099. He just moved his residence across town when the IRS would find him, or get checks issued in someone else's name.


----------



## Empirical (May 13, 2014)

Its funny how I mention the word Mexicans and all of a sudden I am doing something illegal and my work is shoddy. 

I have never met a drywaller that did not think his work was the best and everyone else did not know what they were doing. 
I just got home at 9pm from finish coating a three million dollar home for a builder I have been working with for 15 years. I guess I do shoddy work. :thumbsup: Good night, got to sand tomorrow.


----------



## Toontowntaper (Dec 16, 2012)

Whoa a little heated discussion. 

First off glad I'm up in Canada sounds like you Americans have some 1st world problems going on lol

It doesn't matter who does the work as long as in the end everyone is satisfied. Everyone needs to make a living. If the "Mexicans" or illegals of any race want to do the work does that not show the integrity of them. They know they are getting paid less but still work just as hard to provide for their families. 

Put yourself in their shoes would you not do what you can to offer a better life for your family? It's not like they are addicted to drugs living off the govt. 

And I don't claim to ever be the best taper or Drywaller. I just want to be the best paid taper or Drywaller. Lol food for thought


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Toontowntaper said:


> It doesn't matter who does the work as long as in the end everyone is satisfied. Everyone needs to make a living. If the "Mexicans" or illegals of any race want to do the work does that not show the integrity of them. They know they are getting paid less but still work just as hard to provide for their families.
> 
> Put yourself in their shoes would you not do what you can to offer a better life for your family?


From what PA said, it sounds like there's maybe more to it for a # of them than just providing for their families: 



P.A. ROCKER said:


> The workers ultimate goal, he explained, would be to bank between 30-40 grand.
> Once they sent that much money home they would retire to their village, wealthy.


Sounds a little more hedonistic. 

If I could put in time like that so I could retire wealthy, and sooner, I'd knock myself out.

One thing about the wages for them being lower is that if they were higher, you might see more of them in the trade in the U.S. and the quality of their work go up - which could make for even less work for '******', in some instances.


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Empirical said:


> I have never met a drywaller that did not think his work was the best and everyone else did not know what they were doing.


I've met some, including on here.


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Truth is that a good white crew is hard to find,,, they just dont exist anymore.


----------



## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

chris said:


> Truth is that a good white crew is hard to find,,, they just dont exist anymore.


It's not about "white crews" or "mexican crews", it's about "currency exchanges" ... it's about the corruption of the "value exchange system" ... it's about one industry working on two different "operating systems" ... two different "operating platforms".

Why do Americans vacation in Mexico?
Why do Americans retire in Mexico?
What is the exchange rate of US dollars to Mexican pesos?
Why do people from economies with a "weaker" currency value exchange rate to the US dollar (13 Mexican pesos to 1 US dollar), come to America to acquire dollars in order to send those dollars home in exchange for more pesos? 

Many business owners can't get past their short-term, intellectual lazy, and distorted assumption that "cheaper is better"... acting on the thinking (or lack thereof) that value is created by just reducing costs. Cheaper isn't better ... value is better ... a better benefits/cost ratio achieved working to add value, to increase throughput, to increase value by addition instead of subtraction.

It's not a people problem ... it's a systems problem.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

JustMe said:


> From what PA said, it sounds like there's maybe more to it for a # of them than just providing for their families:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to admit, the guys were always pleasant and weren't looking for trouble. They just did their work. But it did tick me off when they would help themselves to my ladders and planks and plug into my genny without asking.
I don't blame them for wanting more out of life than they can achieve in their home countries.
They put in 5 or 6 years, go home and live like a king, still in their youth. 
I'm starting to get envious. 
Anyway, it pretty much ruined the DC's reputation, he lost his builders and he got into EIFS repair.

Personally, if someone is willing to take on work at a rate .10 sq ft lower than local rates,,,,, RED FLAG. 
Ignore it if makes you feel better.


----------



## nodnarb (Apr 25, 2014)

chris said:


> Truth is that a good white crew is hard to find,,, they just dont exist anymore.


Ive worked with 3 all white crews in TEXAS of all places, the one im running with now got some mexicans but they speak english, take pride in their work and are LEGAL.

This isnt about race necessarily, its about DBAGS cutting out throats hiring people solely because they work ridiculously cheap.  em all. They'll get theirs, and Id personally LOVE to be the one to give it to em . Ive spat in a number if guys faces here lately, id rather make no money than sell myself short.


----------



## Empirical (May 13, 2014)

15cents is what 90 percent of the drywall contractors in Detroit area are paying hangers these days. Up until I started using my LEGAL new Mexican hanging crew I was paying my hangers 25cents. I did not ask for the price to drop to 1990's pay rate, but it has. Do I want my guys to make more money? Yes of course! The price around here on new construction is around 85 to 90 cents. Materials are around 38cents. a sander costs 4cents. do the math and see how much that leaves me to finish the house and deal with all the DC head ache. My old guys complain about doing remod work, but that's about all I can afford to give them at that rate. New guys don't complain about anything. The fact of the matter is that I am the one responsible for keeping my family fed and my business growing, and maybe I cant make everyone happy with the way I go about it. You asked about the dollars in the details and I gave you an honest answer for where I found some dollars. My 25cent hangers know what everyone else is paying hangers, they know that I cant afford to pay them that and still make money myself, but they don't care.

Small contractors like myself stay alive doing smaller more lucrative jobs in between the big ones. Its almost pointless to bid on new subdivision work because there are contractors around here that are in cahoots with, or own the supply yards and are getting there material for half the price. If you want to talk about cheaters, why not start there??


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

The details are. Wealth is built on breaking the backs of the poor. You have to bend the rules without breaking them to get ahead. My two dollars worth.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

Empirical said:


> 15cents is what 90 percent of the drywall contractors in Detroit area are paying hangers these days. Up until I started using my LEGAL new Mexican hanging crew I was paying my hangers 25cents. I did not ask for the price to drop to 1990's pay rate, but it has. Do I want my guys to make more money? Yes of course! The price around here on new construction is around 85 to 90 cents. Materials are around 38cents. a sander costs 4cents. do the math and see how much that leaves me to finish the house and deal with all the DC head ache. My old guys complain about doing remod work, but that's about all I can afford to give them at that rate. New guys don't complain about anything. The fact of the matter is that I am the one responsible for keeping my family fed and my business growing, and maybe I cant make everyone happy with the way I go about it. You asked about the dollars in the details and I gave you an honest answer for where I found some dollars. My 25cent hangers know what everyone else is paying hangers, they know that I cant afford to pay them that and still make money myself, but they don't care. Small contractors like myself stay alive doing smaller more lucrative jobs in between the big ones. Its almost pointless to bid on new subdivision work because there are contractors around here that are in cahoots with, or own the supply yards and are getting there material for half the price. If you want to talk about cheaters, why not start there??


I agree with you. It's pointless to bid the new subdivision work around here. Those are the guys that make no money and break there back for it


----------



## cracker (Nov 3, 2013)

Few bags of grocerys cost 150.00 today. Point is as a industry we all need to go up in price. There will always be low and high bids. We just need to adjust for cost of living. Really the low bid needs to be 1.00 a sqft. (all L&M) We need to start bumping it up...and also helping our fellow drywall co. up also. Scraping at the bottom just flues more scraping at the bottom...There is plenty of money, they printing it nonstop.


----------



## cracker (Nov 3, 2013)

One bag of that was beer...but thats beside the point


----------



## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

The cost of living only goes one way, and as we all know that is up. But unfortunately our income has the ability to go down. Prices here are lower than they were 5 years ago. 
On the cost of living how do these grocery prices compare to your local prices.
http://catalogues.woolworthsonline.com.au/#Weekly_Specials_Catalogue_VIC/6472/Catalogue/page/9


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

gazman said:


> The cost of living only goes one way, and as we all know that is


In between the start of new 'revolutions' - eg. the industrial revolution - traditionally that's been true. But we're now into a new revolution, which could bring down the cost of living, especially for some key items. Eg. 'Macro' 3D printing, like the link I posted on another thread, where the Chinese are now starting to build 2,000 sq ft. (200 square meter) structures for under 5,000.00 (over there). I could see where that price could drop further, as the technology improves and drops in price, and as still cheaper building materials become available. (A quality house 3D printed from dirt? Sea salt? .....? They're already experimenting with some of that. Eg. http://www.dezeen.com/2013/12/12/3d-printed-salt-pavilion-emerging-objects/
Not having to work for years to pay for a big mortgage - could mean being able to work less and still have a roof(?)



gazman said:


> On the cost of living how do these grocery prices compare to your local prices.
> [URL="http://catalogues.woolworthsonline.com.au/#Weekly_Specials_Catalogue_VIC/6472/Catalogue/page/9"]http://catalogues.woolworthsonline.com.au/#Weekly_Specials_Catalogue_VIC/6472/Catalogue/page/9[/URL]


A lot of those brand names aren't ones we have, so hard to compare.

One thing I'm looking at a bit is the concept 'farm2fork' - what could be done in that arena, as technology more and more allows for an individual to carry it out for themselves.
Not saying it's the route I'd go myself quite yet, but one thing, from a # of things I've come across on it, that I bookmarked yesterday: http://news.psu.edu/story/286095/2013/09/03/impact/penn-state-students-affordable-greenhouse-effort-helping-african

Cheaper (and better) food, cheaper and better 3D printed housing - throw in cheap entertainment through technology, ........., and cost of living could come down, if one is willing and able to make the switch.


Going back to the title of this thread - The Dollars are in the Details - for me, the $ are in the 'spaces'. The space between where things are now at and where people ultimately would like them to be at. Whether that's in price, quality, ........ . Technology is going to be offering a lot of changes in that direction, sooner than most people think. (I've had a bet with someone since this time last year - an old drywall contractor - that we'll see a 3D printed house in or around my city within 7 years, if not sooner. I'm feeling comfortable that I'll win - if only because I'll build one, if I have to.) 

My 'At this time' thoughts on it.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

gazman said:


> The cost of living only goes one way, and as we all know that is up. But unfortunately our income has the ability to go down. Prices here are lower than they were 5 years ago.
> On the cost of living how do these grocery prices compare to your local prices.
> http://catalogues.woolworthsonline.com.au/#Weekly_Specials_Catalogue_VIC/6472/Catalogue/page/9


I'd say on average your prices are around 10%-20% higher.
I did find your milk prices are lower.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

JustMe said:


> I've met some, including on here.


http://www.drywalltalk.com/f2/what-best-tip-you-have-got-dwt-4121/

Post # 8.


----------



## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

That's funny Moore, how do you remember things like that?


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

gazman said:


> That's funny Moore, how do you remember things like that?


.....


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

moore said:


> http://www.drywalltalk.com/f2/what-best-tip-you-have-got-dwt-4121/
> 
> Post # 8.


I don't think I admitted to not thinking my work was the best with that reply to Empirical's "I have never met a drywaller that did not think his work was the best and everyone else did not know what they were doing". 

I remember even 2buck admitting on that thread that he'd learned things. Post #4: http://www.drywalltalk.com/f2/what-best-tip-you-have-got-dwt-4121/#post82479


----------

