# The Great Debate.....trying to get dad to change the system a bit, maybe just a tweak



## Whosnxt1776 (Oct 4, 2012)

First off we have a blue line 2'' nail spotter. I use it in the garages, which is the only place I am allowed to use the spotter. Dad swears you can see the spotter after paint no matter what. Now let me say both he and I can run the spotter well, we dont leave any edges. I have seen some others run them terribly. I do all the nail spotting. Along with all my other tasks....Dad basically just runs the tools. He taught me how to run them all but its not what I do everyday, especially since I got a hernia from boxing. Anyway, trying to cut down on my hand fatigue and work, I have asked Dad since he is totally against me using the 2 blueline inside the house, if I could do the first two coats by hand and run a DM 5.5 on the third. Since the DM is a flat box and dads north star boxes and the blue lines we had before were ok for the inside, why would the 5.5 not be ok? See, I got him! haha....but he has yet to buy a 5.5...I believe it would be just fine and cut down on my hand work.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Stop talkin and get a 5.5dm damit, Be one of the best tools you have, Its a fantastic nail spotter :yes::yes::yes:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Whosnxt1776 said:


> First off we have a blue line 2'' nail spotter. I use it in the garages, which is the only place I am allowed to use the spotter. Dad swears you can see the spotter after paint no matter what. Now let me say both he and I can run the spotter well, we dont leave any edges. I have seen some others run them terribly. I do all the nail spotting. Along with all my other tasks....Dad basically just runs the tools. He taught me how to run them all but its not what I do everyday, especially since I got a hernia from boxing. Anyway, trying to cut down on my hand fatigue and work, I have asked Dad since he is totally against me using the 2 blueline inside the house, if I could do the first two coats by hand and run a DM 5.5 on the third. Since the DM is a flat box and dads north star boxes and the blue lines we had before were ok for the inside, why would the 5.5 not be ok? See, I got him! haha....but he has yet to buy a 5.5...I believe it would be just fine and cut down on my hand work.


Tell your dad I said he is a smart man:thumbup:

A lot of the DWC don't want the spotter used where I am, They have issues with them showing through the paint. Worst one is, when they use them on the ceilings where there is knock down(they run them without sanding).

We go 2 coats by hand, then final with 3" spotter. We found the recently acquired power sander from Justme helps.

One problem we get though, is the painters are using flat based paint to prime. Then you see what some call a rail road effect, those straight lines draw peoples attention to them.

Then IMO, there's guys who cut down box blades and stuff them on the spotter. You could swear the spotter indents into the drywall then.

But I am curious about the 5.5 box for final coat on screws. Tell your dad the compliment I paid him, and maybe he will buy you one:whistling2:


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> Tell your dad I said he is a smart man:thumbup:
> 
> Tell your dad the compliment I paid him, and maybe he will buy you one:whistling2:


Sorry 2buck but I dont think the father in Nashville would really care about some drywaller from Ontario's opinion. :yes:

As Clint Eastwood said:

"You are a legend in your own mind"


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Go to the video thread and see my walk through clip, Pause on the screw areas, I did them with the 5.5, What i find is that it sands back well, Very well, No edges, Its almost like a sanding coat, Half is removed with a quick swipe leaving it very well blended. :yes:


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

If the spotter doesn't leave any edges then how can you see it after paint? Just like running them by hand they will flash regardless if you don't level 5 or sand your primer and prime again before finish paint. Only thing I can think that may make the lines stand out is if you use the spotter through your joint on the second and third passes. I can imagine this will build up that joint a bit there..


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Also, it is going to be a challenge to get your dad to change his sytem lol :yes:. I know as my dad doesn't like to change his system either, but I am slowly getting him to improve our system. Finally got him to stock paper face bead on one of our projects


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Tell him you can use it on no coat as well as screws,flats, flatape.... curious , how did you know you got a hernia?


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

thefinisher said:


> but I am slowly getting him to improve our system. Finally got him to stock paper face bead on one of our projects


From what I learned and saw from impact testing at Trim-Tex the other day, I will never,nope,no way,not a chance ever buy paper faced bead again if I have my way.


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

mudslingr said:


> From what I learned and saw from impact testing at Trim-Tex the other day, I will never,nope,no way,not a chance ever buy paper faced bead again if I have my way.


Yeah they have done a lot of testing on that mud set bead. Just too pricey to use it for us. It is $50 more a box for paperface over regular metal bead which is the main reason why we haven't been using it.


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## Whosnxt1776 (Oct 4, 2012)

chris said:


> Tell him you can use it on no coat as well as screws,flats, flatape.... curious , how did you know you got a hernia?




One day after work I jumped out of the van and when I stood up it felt like someone had stabbed me in the stomach. Right the belly button. After a few days of pain I made a doctors app and told him what I felt. He asked if I lifted heavy things and strained a lot, I said "Drywall" and he said lay down and let me feel for a hernia. 

He pushed on my stomach with one finger he got to the 8 oclock point out side my belly button and his finger sank into a hole. I had torn the muscle and lining behind the abs. 

I had to have a piece of metal mesh inserted into my stomach and sowed in for the muscle and tissue to grow threw and be stronger. 

I still have pain there a few times a week to this day years later. But nothing like when it happened. I think it has something to do with the mesh and moving a certain way. 

But I had been finishing for 4 years and then dad handed me the box and said you have seen me for 4 years, you do it....I did it for about 5 months and then I got the hernia. I believe it was from using my core to much while boxing and not enough arms. The call it an umbilical hernia. You can google and get all the medical info.


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## Whosnxt1776 (Oct 4, 2012)

Dad used metal forever but by the time I started 10 years ago he had switched to paper. He said the metal bead cracked too much.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

After 3 coats and light sand ..I used the 7 box on these ceiling screws....Garage so...


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

You should just go ahead and level 5 that garage ceiling out Moore :whistling2:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

thefinisher said:


> You should just go ahead and level 5 that garage ceiling out Moore :whistling2:


 I did!:tt2:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mudshark said:


> Sorry 2buck but I dont think the father in Nashville would really care about some drywaller from Ontario's opinion.
> 
> As Clint Eastwood said:
> 
> "You are a legend in your own mind"


Everybody loves compliments, no matter who they come:yes:

But you have crossed a line,, Mudshark:furious:

You just picked on Clint Eastwood, who is a legend in our time, a iconic hero who I grew up watching when I was young. Ever since the movie "Grand Torino" which I liked, you lefties have been picking on poor OLD Clint...... Sure ....... pick on him when he gets old, and is close to being in a wheel chair. Which icon is next, Santa Clause. Are you guys going to tell us Santa is bad because he smokes a pipe, he's too fat, and should be tossed in jail because he breaks into your house to leave gifts:furious:.

I say everyone should post a avatar of their favourite action movie icon, to show mudshark he is a bad bad boy,,, for picking on Clint:furious:

Can you guess how many avatars in support there will be.........Mud punk:furious:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Everybody loves compliments, no matter who they come
> 
> But you have crossed a line,, Mudshark
> 
> ...


Favourite action movie icon eh? Sweet!
The Crow. with Brandon Lee. Awesome movie!








By the way, nice way to retaliate against mudshark :whistling2:
Think of something everyone loves and randomly associate it to him.
He's bad because he picks on what we love! right....:whistling2::jester:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

moore said:


> I did!:tt2:


 
Howd ya do it moore?? Hand skim with a knife?? Roller??


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

cazna said:


> Howd ya do it moore?? Hand skim with a knife?? Roller??


 Roll @ wipe ..only the field of the board..If the seams and butts are done within fine sanding form...why mud the entire ceiling? That ..IMO will just leave scratch marks and flashing....I use a l/w mud for the roll @ wipe ..Leaves the field slicker than a dollar bill.:thumbsup: not sayin it's the right way !!! Just my way !


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> But you have crossed a line,, Mudshark:furious: You just picked on Clint Eastwood, Which icon is next, *Santa Clause*. Are you guys going to tell us Santa is bad because he smokes a pipe, he's too fat, and should be tossed in jail because he breaks into your house to leave gifts:furious:.
> I say everyone should post a avatar of their favourite action movie icon, to show mudshark he is a bad bad boy,,, for picking on Clint:furious:
> Can you guess how many avatars in support there will be.........Mud punk:furious:


Well this is what I think of Santa...





 

And PT - he hasn't changed his Avatar since he put up that self promo one of his company logo.

Maybe PT you can change it. 

Well - are ya punk :blink:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

moore said:


> Roll @ wipe ..only the field of the board..If the seams and butts are done within fine sanding form...why mud the entire ceiling? That ..IMO will just leave scratch marks and flashing....I use a l/w mud for the roll @ wipe ..Leaves the field slicker than a dollar bill.:thumbsup: not sayin it's the right way !!! Just my way !


Well now thats dam interesting :yes:

So to get a level five, You just roll and wipe the bare spots, Then sand all of it, Its that what your doing????

Heres a problem i have been having, A type of nz mud, an all purpose for taping and the only one for skim coating they recommend wont layer, As in if i did it like your saying then it would edge ridge, finish boxing a seam, Let dry, then finish troweling off a bead you have an edge ridge that wont sand out, Tape corner and mudrun with 4, finish with 2.5 you have an edge ridge, Finish sanding a house, Find a few touch ups and touch them up, Go to sand it and it wont sand flat, The touch up stays raised and the mud around it sands away leaving a bump, Now this mud im talking about is highly loaded with PVA, glues etc thats why its recommended for skim coating, Which brings me to something ive wanted to ask for a while, Are you guys adding glues finding this problem or do any of your muds do this???? This mud is a midweight type mud and very nice to use, Sheetrock midweight does not seem to have this problem.

Just wondering if you have seen the tapepro handle and blade in this clip moore, You lock the head at the angle you like with a screw, I cut the handle off a 14icnh knife and fitted the blade to it, Would you use something like this for wipedown behind the roller?? Or would you rather get up there and wipe by hand??


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> Everybody loves compliments, no matter who they come:yes:
> 
> But you have crossed a line,, Mudshark:furious:
> 
> ...



Brave Heart.


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## Philma Crevices (Jan 28, 2012)

cazna said:


> Well now thats dam interesting :yes:
> 
> So to get a level five, You just roll and wipe the bare spots, Then sand all of it, Its that what your doing????
> 
> ...


We get the raised spots from checkout alot... my theory is thin your touchup mud down, more water content easier to sand off flat. 

If you do round it, you can finesse it to flat by grinding a bit more usually :whistling2:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

cazna said:


> Well now thats dam interesting :yes:
> 
> So to get a level five, You just roll and wipe the bare spots, Then sand all of it, Its that what your doing????
> 
> ...


I get the same problem when using glue, because my finish coat is always the lightweight compound. When there's time and money in the budget I'll leave the lightweight topping for touch-up/check-out, and use an AP mud for skimming....then the layering rarely happens.

I've been skipping it lately by just telling people to paint pretty heavy :laughing: 

"Yeah, you want to use flat paint and a 3/4" nap roller to make this look really nice" :lol:


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## A smooth finish (Mar 19, 2012)

Bond James Bond

I like most of them but Daniel Craig Is really good


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## br549 (Jun 2, 2012)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Favourite action movie icon eh? Sweet!
> The Crow. with Brandon Lee. Awesome movie!
> View attachment 5859
> 
> ...


Brandon Lee for sure


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## Whosnxt1776 (Oct 4, 2012)

Braveheart would take Mrs. Lee out in a second!


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## br549 (Jun 2, 2012)

Whosnxt1776 said:


> Braveheart would take Mrs. Lee out in a second!


Mrs Lee?!! Thats just wrong!  Braveheart's big ass sword wouldnt do him much good, the Crow's already dead! :jester:


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## Philma Crevices (Jan 28, 2012)

SlimPickins said:


> I get the same problem when using glue, because my finish coat is always the lightweight compound. When there's time and money in the budget I'll leave the lightweight topping for touch-up/check-out, and use an AP mud for skimming....then the layering rarely happens.
> 
> I've been skipping it lately by just telling people to paint pretty heavy :laughing:
> 
> "Yeah, you want to use flat paint and a 3/4" nap roller to make this look really nice" :lol:


we use USG +3 for everthing but taping, no glue added, very low glue content mud(if any). Same issues. I *think* its more of a mud consistency issue. Skim with a pissy mud for last coat, then thicker mud for touchups to my mind makes the touched up spot more durable than the undercoat causing the rounding when brushed over. Sounds good to me anyways :whistling2:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

cazna said:


> Well now thats dam interesting :yes:
> 
> So to get a level five, You just roll and wipe the bare spots, Then sand all of it, Its that what your doing????
> 
> ...


 I tape my butts and seams with 90 min..After that It's a/p all the way.. When I roll @ wipe the field of the board with the l/w I cut it tight right up to the edge of the seams and butts with a well filed 6'' knife. After that theres very little sanding envoled.

I would rather wipe by hand with a worn out old 12'' and a well filed 6'' to cut the edges.. I've never used the taping/topping/ m/w or l/w muds to finish a job out ...A/P for my block and skim. 

Cazna ...You have so many tools It's hard to keep up! :thumbsup:

Iv'e seen all your vids...many times....at the moment I'm stuck on PA ROCKERS angle boxing vid..:whistling2:


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

Ahh...Tuco.:thumbup 

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=hnFdTXtFdSE&desktop_uri=/watch?v=hnFdTXtFdSE


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## Whosnxt1776 (Oct 4, 2012)

How about Alex Jones, Me and all the other real men still left in this Republic stand up and we wont need fantasy men to look up to anymore....Lets have real role models. I want my son to look up to the founders, and true patriots and thinkers and civil rights activists. I want him to think about the universe and where it all came from, I want him to be alive. Not worship drug using rappers or alcoholic rockers (yes, I know my probs and even more reason for me to want my son to have different) or steroid using game players.....anyway


about my dads system


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

when i do touch ups, that is in theory if i ever did have to do a touchup:jester:
i just lightly blob the mud on if that makes sense. i try not to compress the touchup. let the mud stay loose and it will sand easier than than your compressed skimcoat


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Philma Crevices said:


> we use USG +3 for everthing but taping, no glue added, very low glue content mud(if any). Same issues. I *think* its more of a mud consistency issue. Skim with a pissy mud for last coat, then thicker mud for touchups to my mind makes the touched up spot more durable than the undercoat causing the rounding when brushed over. Sounds good to me anyways :whistling2:


That would make good sense....if I didn't use thinner mud for touching up. 

I don't think I'm a stupid guy, but layering baffles me. If I could totally figure it out, then I could sell the secret for millions!:jester:


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

carpentaper said:


> when i do touch ups, that is in theory if i ever did have to do a touchup:jester:
> i just lightly blob the mud on if that makes sense. i try not to compress the touchup. let the mud stay loose and it will sand easier than than your compressed skimcoat


Been doing it this way for a good while now....looks strange to the unfamiliar but works great.


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

i knew i wasn't crazy.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Whosnxt1776 said:


> How about Alex Jones, Me and all the other real men still left in this Republic stand up and we wont need fantasy men to look up to anymore....Lets have real role models. I want my son to look up to the founders, and true patriots and thinkers and civil rights activists. I want him to think about the universe and where it all came from, I want him to be alive. Not worship drug using rappers or alcoholic rockers (yes, I know my probs and even more reason for me to want my son to have different) or steroid using game players.....anyway
> 
> 
> about my dads system


What ever night you don't buy booze, put the money you did not use in a jar. Then when you save up enough money, buy a 5.5 box. When you explain to your father you bought it through money you did not spend on drinking, he may be more willing to let you change the system,,,, since you yourself, would be showing your willing to change your ways also:thumbsup:

If that don't work, promise him you won't talk about Alex Jones at work no more:whistling2:


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

ok running A spotter in a house is not a bad idea the thing is you won't flash if you cover Key words cover the whole sweep last coat by hand, why 5.5 that is way to much sanding, lest you like sanding


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> ok running A spotter in a house is not a bad idea the thing is you won't flash if you cover Key words cover the whole sweep last coat by hand, why 5.5 that is way to much sanding, lest you like sanding


Personally, I don't really care for spotters or doing a stripe in the board field. The combination of texture change, mud buildup and possible improper application of paint, can all present problems. It's not necessary to make the dimple completely disappear under the mud, you just need to make it flat as possible.

For ceilings, depending on the light cast and window height to the ceiling, I will stripe due to most ceilings being white or off-white, but walls that are usually color and many times a sheen paint is used, it....to me, is just not worth the risk. I always 3 coat my screws but they are tight coats that I try not to expand too far. Does it take longer? Absolutely......but it's what I like to do.


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## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

moore said:


> Roll @ wipe ..only the field of the board..If the seams and butts are done within fine sanding form...why mud the entire ceiling? That ..IMO will just leave scratch marks and flashing....I use a l/w mud for the roll @ wipe ..Leaves the field slicker than a dollar bill.:thumbsup: not sayin it's the right way !!! Just my way !


When they ask for level 5 on a ceiling i do a real good filled in second coat then glaze the whole ceiling knowone ever knows the differencejust use a big enough trowel, i use a 14 inch SS permashape wicked trowel for glazing/plastering


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

DLSdrywall said:


> When they ask for level 5 on a ceiling i do a real good filled in second coat then glaze the whole ceiling knowone ever knows the differencejust use a big enough trowel, i use a 14 inch SS permashape wicked trowel for glazing/plastering


But, you've coated the entire ceiling....isn't that the definition of L5?

Or, are you calling the coat over tape 2nd coat?

We've had this discussion before, or someone has and I've read it.....the difference between tape and 1st coat (some would say there's no difference). I don't number my coats, I call them tape/top/skim/touch-up/L5.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Square Foot said:


> Personally, I don't really care for spotters or doing a stripe in the board field. The combination of texture change, mud buildup and possible improper application of paint, can all present problems. It's not necessary to make the dimple completely disappear under the mud, you just need to make it flat as possible.
> 
> For ceilings, depending on the light cast and window height to the ceiling, I will stripe due to most ceilings being white or off-white, but walls that are usually color and many times a sheen paint is used, it....to me, is just not worth the risk. I always 3 coat my screws but they are tight coats that I try not to expand too far. Does it take longer? Absolutely......but it's what I like to do.



we all have our own system we are comfortable with that;s for sure


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

cazna said:


> Well now thats dam interesting :yes:
> 
> So to get a level five, You just roll and wipe the bare spots, Then sand all of it, Its that what your doing????
> 
> ...


I would run a glue mud first for L5 if I had to but never to finish with a glue mud no way...... I can see your problems Gluemud=Problems


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> I would run a glue mud first for L5 if I had to but never to finish with a glue mud no way...... I can see your problems Gluemud=Problems


Your right joe, This mud is labeled to be suitable for all coats, An all purpose, Wouldnt an all purpose be glue mud then, We have a few other topping muds, For last coat over a few coats of setting muds, But go the machines then your looking for a 2nd and third coat mud, Back to the glue muds


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## Toolnut (Aug 17, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Tell your dad I said he is a smart man:thumbup:
> 
> A lot of the DWC don't want the spotter used where I am, They have issues with them showing through the paint. Worst one is, when they use them on the ceilings where there is knock down(they run them without sanding).
> 
> ...


I think part of the problem is the painters using flat paint to prime, it would be like you using spackle to run your joints. That's not what it's made for. Try doing a couple spots with a good primer then paint a couple with flat paint and see if you can tell the diff.


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