# Poll



## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

I would like to know how may out there think that it is better to work Union or Non-Union ? Don' t be shy and give some reasons for your decisions.. we all know the obvious such as insurance and hourly rates .


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## rockdaddy (Jul 2, 2009)

Non Union. i find it easier to sleep at night knowing that any measure of success I have is because of my own hard work and drive. Don't need anyone to negotiate my numbers for me.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Non-union:

1) Not now, never was, never will be a communist.

2) Will never bribe a BA for a job.

3) Nepotism - the practice of hiring family and friends, regardless of experience or qualifications

4) Corruption - see Teamsters

5) UAW - see GM's job bank

6) Unions have often kept operators from firing members who don't produce or f### up in a big way.

7) Seen union members too lazy to walk a picket line hire day laborers to pull their picket time, and then go work a side job for cash.

8) Union guys doing side work in general. 

9) Exterting pressure on rank and file to vote for their agenda.

10) Rat decals

11) Blue gate / Red gate jobs

12) Prevailing wage jobs - direct result of union influence in government

13) Will never pay dues for the "privilege" of holding a "job".

14) The UMWA strike of 1978 lasted 6 + months

15) Did I mention I am not a communist?


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## Durabond-Don (Jul 11, 2009)

Both have it's *advantages*. But for now, I say Union.


1. I get a darn good weekly salary with good benefits.

2. Weekends off. (mostly)

3. No more bidding jobs.

4. My taxes are taken out of my pay, so I don't have to worry about that.

5. My hard work is rewarded with more work.

6. I am not competing with morons who will work for $5 an hour.

7. Yearly pay increases.

8. I can actually count on a paycheck, thus allowing me to purchase things on credit knowing they will get paid.

9. Decent unemployment even if I am layed off.

10. No more dealing with idiot contractors.

*Disadvantages:*

1. The travel. I have 12 hour days (including travel time) for an 8 hour pay.

2. The political bs. Don't tell me who to vote for, I got my own mind. Taking my dues to support one political party, is wrong. 

3. No vacation, paid days off, etc.


At this time the union has been good to me and my family. If the situation changes, I will also.

*One more thing. I am going to make my MYSPACE page availiable for you guys to view, for the next few days. Then I will set it back to private. Go look at myspace, and tell me If I am a communist: Please go look.*

http://www.myspace.com/donpazicni


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## Al Taper (Dec 16, 2007)

Durabond-Don said:


> Both have it's *advantages*. But for now, I say Union.
> 
> 
> 1. I get a darn good weekly salary with good benefits.
> ...


I agree 100%.....

On the other hand I have worked 7 weeks union this year. I have been doing my own work all year. And since the contractors are bidding lower to get work they want me to lower my price.. So but once you drop ur prices they always want it for that price....I don't drop my pants for no one. O I mean price..:whistling2:


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

I don't mean to say union members are communists, just the leadership. 

BTW .... When unions strike for better wages, etc., it is collective bargaining. When independent contractors do it, it is called collusion and we get sent to prison.

I might add, there is a lot of things that go on above the membership that they never see or hear, or they close their eyes to. 

Ever notice that the trades never seem to strike until they are on a stadium job? It cost us a rolling roof here in the 70's. And during recent stadium renovation, again another strike, albeit brief. But this time one trade struck but another crossed the picket because the former had not honored the latter's previous strike. So much for "brotherhood". 

But if it is working out for some, who am I to say?


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## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

*union is the way*

if you have to work for someone else, union is the only way. As a union carpenter in nyc, my hourly wage as foreman was 44 per hour, my benefits package was 36 an hour. i worked 7 hours a day, and anything after 7 was time and a half, saturday was time and a half all day, sundays double time, holidays triple time. If there was something you weren't sure about, like doing ceiling grid, or whatever, you could go to the union school and take a class from a seasoned pro for free. The great thing about the carpenters union in NYC is, if a guy shows up and he sucks, you could get rid of him instantly. the best workers are always working, except when the economy sucks. The best part is you never have to compete with jerks that work for 10 bux an hour. Even though i left a great job to start my company, i still have my union book and still pay my dues. if the **** hits the fan i could always go back to my former gig, or for another company. Ultimately, i'd like to sign my company with the union, because it is the apex of our industry.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

d-rock said:


> if you have to work for someone else, union is the only way. As a union carpenter in nyc, my hourly wage as foreman was 44 per hour, my benefits package was 36 an hour. i worked 7 hours a day, and anything after 7 was time and a half, saturday was time and a half all day, sundays double time, holidays triple time. If there was something you weren't sure about, like doing ceiling grid, or whatever, you could go to the union school and take a class from a seasoned pro for free. The great thing about the carpenters union in NYC is, if a guy shows up and he sucks, you could get rid of him instantly. the best workers are always working, except when the economy sucks. The best part is you never have to compete with jerks that work for 10 bux an hour. Even though i left a great job to start my company, i still have my union book and still pay my dues. if the **** hits the fan i could always go back to my former gig, or for another company. Ultimately, i'd like to sign my company with the union, because it is the apex of our industry.


 I agree the wages and benefit packages can be good . But on the down side what about some of the union workers think they can still scab on the side ? Or when you do get laid off want to collect unemployment benefits which is fine , but why go and call a non-union contractor and want to work for cash and then still collect unemployment ? Not all and I am sure most union guys are not this way , but I sure have had tons giving me a call for work . I have an acquaintance that has nothing to do with drywall however he is in a laborer union , he brags about the good money he makes well he does when he is working that is , what about the other 9 months he isn't working what do you think his average wage would be spread out over 12 months... In his case as with many he could work a regular job for far less money and still be ahead even after paying for health insurance .. still chaps my hide when union members can badmouth non-union workers yet when thing slow down for them they can go out and work non-union for under the table money.... or worse yet be working a union job and still go out and scab for cash ...another reason the price of drywall is being driven down ... just my 2 cents worth. One of the main reasons to be union is for the money so why work for less? Be on one side of the fence or the other , but not both .....


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

My brother is now in the painter union. Presently at 80% of full journyman wage, pays around $2 per hour in dues to the combined local, district, etc. That is about a 4K per year tax/kickback/bribe. Also gets no paid holidays or vacation.


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## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

*union is the way*

after i became a union carpenter i was able to buy a house. before that i couldn't afford it b/c i was making 20 per hour. there's no comparison, and i find that most people who bash union men are people that never worked union. Obviously it will be different from state to state, region to region. But when it's busy, the good workers are always steady. As far as union guys working non- union, when they're laid off, or weekends, they have a right to do that as long as they don't work on UNION JOBS FOR CASH..Truthfully, i never heard union guys on my jobs talking down non union guys, only hacks that work for pennies. if anything they wish they could organize those non union members so they could see how it could change their lives. It's not perfect, nothing is, but it's a way to make sure employers are sharing a piece of pie with the guys bustin' their humps. If I as an employer am having a lucrative year, i know a lot of that has to do with my guys doing the right thing, in which case it's my responsabiity to take good care of them. Anyhow..in this economy it looks like we're all sunk..at least for a little while.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

I agree 100% with rockdaddy and Darren. Besides, everyone I know that joined the union around here couldn't hack it and their quality was garbage.


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## super rocker (Jul 8, 2009)

I have been anti union since I started hanging in 1971. I did not want to be judged as a group rather than an individual. If the guy working next to me was doing a poor job, he still made the same as me. That is just wrong. I have worked with many union "craftsman" and 98% had the union mentality that quality was ALWAYS an after thought. As despicable as unions are, if I had to do it over I would have joined a union, put in my 30 years and drawn that gravy pension. A taper friend of mine retired 4 years ago after 30 years and his pension was $4500 per month! This year I won't make that in 6 months. Being called the best is not worth the financial tradeoff. I can't believe I said that.


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## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

*Lol !!!*

Super rocker-
that was a great post... Honestly though in NYC the union side guys for the most part are far superior craftsmen. Not to say that non union is shabby, but the tolerances don't compare. On union jobs there are 20 people whose job it is to find things wrong with your work. so if you want to keep working steady you really have to be above average and quick at the same time. Been on both ends of the spectrum, and seen crap and gold in both forums, but if you're a good, honest craftsman, you won't lose being union.


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## rockdaddy (Jul 2, 2009)

Have been thinking about it re-reading the thread. I did serve an 18 month apprenticeship and held a card for four years and the things that I learned that really stick out are;
Putty and paint makes it what it aint.
The tape is 2 inches.
Tapers can fix it.
Break times are 915, 1200, and 230.
Material comes in the front door from the delivery and right out the back door into pick ups. Police reports filed the next morning.
15 sheets per man per day.
Money talks and BS walks.
Welcome to Philly boys.


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

rockdaddy said:


> Have been thinking about it re-reading the thread. I did serve an 18 month apprenticeship and held a card for four years and the things that I learned that really stick out are;
> Putty and paint makes it what it aint.
> The tape is 2 inches.
> Tapers can fix it.
> ...



Philly is a tough town .... I have a couple stories of the "Boys" having a talk with me...... And the outcome was me packing up and saying ....thank you very much for not kicking the **** of me .

I have noticed a huge disconnect between East Coast finishers and the West......


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

uh oh, we've got a biggie/tupac battle now


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