# Why flats with the 12"



## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

How come we finish corners (no bevel) with a 4" knife, yet we skim a flat (5" bevel) with a 12" knife????


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Becouse the shoulders and board for me is total sh!t capt, All un level, Shoulders sticking out, One shoulder higher than the other, Its awful, They know to and are trying to sort it but its not happening, The 12 allows more leveling for what i can get anyway. I have done tape, 7, rough sand, 7 again, Rough sand then 12, Seem to go well, Very nice sanded edges, Hopefully i will get a tapepro 8 with reducer plate soon, Give that a go.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

cazna said:


> Becouse the shoulders and board for me is total sh!t capt, All un level, Shoulders sticking out, One shoulder higher than the other, Its awful, They know to and are trying to sort it but its not happening, The 12 allows more leveling for what i can get anyway. I have done tape, 7, rough sand, 7 again, Rough sand then 12, Seem to go well, Very nice sanded edges, Hopefully i will get a tapepro 8 with reducer plate soon, Give that a go.


Caz, may I humbly suggest a Col 8" fat-boy???

Why do you run your 7 twice???? don't it leave enough mud????


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> How come we finish corners (no bevel) with a 4" knife, yet we skim a flat (5" bevel) with a 12" knife????


Why do some guys coat out a screw that is 3/8" inches, up to 6 to 8 inches wide with mud


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Caz, may I humbly suggest a Col 8" fat-boy???


I'm not sure if you can convince "Cazna the tool whore" to buy anymore tools:whistling2:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

So many things are done, simply cause
"its the way they like it here" 
"its what they are used to seeing"
All that aside,,,,, even if you have bad bevels, a properly crowned bed joint will handle it. At least with the chit-rock we get.

Again, tho,,, if a 4" knife will finish a corner that has no bevel, how come we run our flats so dern wide???


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Why do some guys coat out a screw that is 3/8" inches, up to 6 to 8 inches wide with mud


 I'm working on that...:whistling2:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

moore said:


> I'm working on that...:whistling2:


 Yeah right,,, the only you have to fill in the field, is where the glue was humped up and dimpled the board,,,,LOL


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> So many things are done, simply cause
> "its the way they like it here"
> "its what they are used to seeing"
> All that aside,,,,, even if you have bad bevels, a properly crowned bed joint will handle it. At least with the chit-rock we get.
> ...


' 
''A properly crowned bed joint'' Ya mean a hump?:blink:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

moore said:


> '
> ''A properly crowned bed joint'' Ya mean a hump?:blink:


no,,,,I mean "full",,,,, not short of the bevel edges


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Yeah right,,, the only you have to fill in the field, is where the glue was humped up and dimpled the board,,,,LOL


 Better than peeling back all those egg holes! :whistling2:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

:hammer::boxing::laughing:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

consider this:
1) If the bevel edges are good,,,, run a 7 then skim it with an eight
2) If they are bad, run the 7 above and 7 below, then 7 down the middle followed by an 8.

The point of this is this:

Why do we tend to think the only answer is a 12?????? 
You got to admit, we have a mindset in this direction!!!!


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> :hammer::boxing::laughing:


I'll take some pics tomorrow Capt ...and show you my reasons..
And you can take it from there...:yes: tho I do agree with you ..8 then 10 is all that should be needed..


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

I had a friend that taped off a trowel with a 6, then bedded it with a 22" trowel, and skimmed it with a 10" knife off the hawk.

Of course being a H&T guy, he was way too good to sand, so they would hire me to sand his work(with a PC you make more money sanding than finishing) It was good work and sanded out fine, but it took three passes down a flat to sand,,,,,,that's a 5" bevel, that took three passes with an 8" pc head.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

moore said:


> I'll take some pics tomorrow Capt ...and show you my reasons..
> And you can take it from there...:yes: tho I do agree with you ..8 then 10 is all that should be needed..


 I hear ya,,, and I've seen your work,,, don't bother with the pics,, it looks better than mine,,,,, really


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I hear ya,,, and I've seen your work,,, don't bother with the pics,, it looks better than mine,,,,, really


 NO...I'm sure your wrong there:yes:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

moore said:


> NO...I'm sure your wrong there:yes:


 Truly, it does. You run straight lines,,,, I don't even try to. I sand with a pc, so if my box is leaving abit of a hard edge, so what, no biggy. 

Even tho our work will paint out the same,,, you'd fire me before lunch time ,,, LOL,,,, which is okay,,,, I'll have beer in the cooler,,,heehee

I only worry about "what its gonna look like when its painted,,, some things I am anal about,,, one is,,, I insist ALL furbies and hang screws are dealt with on the FIRST pass. When coating beads or running corners,,,, the mud MUST go all the way into the corner or up the wall, NO GAPS.

I use a pc so I run beads with two 8". even H&T, I have a mashalltown 8" trowel,,, ever seen one???


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> So many things are done, simply cause
> "its the way they like it here"
> "its what they are used to seeing"
> All that aside,,,,, even if you have bad bevels, a properly crowned bed joint will handle it. At least with the chit-rock we get.
> ...


Part of this job is perception, case in point...........

One taper who trained me, we were doing high end homes. With the Butt joints, we would always walk around with a straight edge to check how level they were. Some could be 10", 24" , 20" ,16", 40 ", and so on, none were the same size. people would always ask why our butts were of different size (compared to other tapers). A lot of times when we showed them what we were doing, next day, we would see marks on the walls, not just on the butts, but all over the walls, we were no longer tapers, but wall levallers. After a while, My taping Guru said to hell with it, make all the butts the same size "bullchit baffles brains"

Bottom line, the 12" box is the better skimming box, not a coating box. But b/c people see that the joint is coated out to 12", does not mean it's filled, it's just feathered. After sanding you could end up with a joint of varying of sizes. But they only pay attention to what width it was coated.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> Part of this job is perception, case in point...........
> 
> One taper who trained me, we were doing high end homes. With the Butt joints, we would always walk around with a straight edge to check how level they were. Some could be 10", 24" , 20" ,16", 40 ", and so on, none were the same size. people would always ask why our butts were of different size (compared to other tapers). A lot of times when we showed them what we were doing, next day, we would see marks on the walls, not just on the butts, but all over the walls, we were no longer tapers, but wall levallers. After a while, My taping Guru said to hell with it, make all the butts the same size "bullchit baffles brains"
> 
> Bottom line, the 12" box is the better skimming box, not a coating box. But b/c people see that the joint is coated out to 12", does not mean it's filled, it's just feathered. After sanding you could end up with a joint of varying of sizes. But they only pay attention to what width it was coated.


Thanks bro,,, 

that was the point I wanted to make, and give a little food for thought,,,,,,,,

Think I'll go cuddle with the sweetie,,,,,heehee ,,,,, course I'm just gonna tackle her,,, to heck with the talking stuff,,, I can still take her in a fair fight,,, I told 30 minutes ago,,,, go ahead and start the foreplay,,,, I'll be in after abit.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I only worry about "what its gonna look like when its painted,


This is a comment some tapers don't understand

Have you ever worked with a taper that feels "the tape must be buried", most times it is a hand taper. That's why most hand tapers can't get their head around "how angles are done buy machine"

That's just one example, and I think you know what I'm talking about:yes::thumbup:


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## Mountain Man (Oct 28, 2012)

Eyeball drywall-it's all smoke and mirrors!! I put this on before but it's the truth!!


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Again, tho,,, if a 4" knife will finish a corner that has no bevel, how come we run our flats so dern wide???


Because it doesn't get glancing light like a flat.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Caz, may I humbly suggest a Col 8" fat-boy???
> 
> Why do you run your 7 twice???? don't it leave enough mud????


Ive just been experimenting capt, As i always do, Being a hawk eye painter i see things, Running the 10 then 12, You sand that and somtimes the ten edge shows, So using a 7 twice tight then a 12 tight seams to be producing a nice flat seam, Dealing with shoulders a little, Edge sanding very well. Like buck said the finished seam isnt 12 wide, I run a 5.5 dm box on the screws as well, When thats sanded its more like 3.5 finished, Im a pc sander as well, If i finsihed with a ten, Sanded that, It would be 9 or 8 so hello nasty shoulders it would be, But how awsome if could, So back to Tapepros 8 box with 5.5 reducer plate, Ive just been thinking using that with the plate 5.5 behind the tape, Then take off the plate and run 8, Then tight 12 just might be the ducks nuts??? I could hand sand, But stuff that, I sanded two, 2 story 2 bed units, All flats and screws in 3 hrs a few weeks back with the pc and vac, Thats 7 then 12 box, Boy does it edge sand fast and well. Feel free to tell me im wrong and full of sh!t if you think so, Im always listening and will never know it all, You have more experance than me so let me have it :thumbsup::yes:


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## RenoRob (Nov 6, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> This is a comment some tapers don't understand
> 
> Have you ever worked with a taper that feels "the tape must be buried", most times it is a hand taper. That's why most hand tapers can't get their head around "how angles are done buy machine"
> 
> That's just one example, and I think you know what I'm talking about:yes::thumbup:


So your tapes on the flats aren't buried? Seriously, because I have never been able to get them consistently under the bevel. Some of the Certainteed boards hardly have a bevel, but even with Sheetrock it's hard to get it completely buried, especially between the studs.


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## CatD7 (Jul 25, 2011)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> How come we finish corners (no bevel) with a 4" knife, yet we skim a flat (5" bevel) with a 12" knife????


 

I finish outside corners with my Marshaltown 16" Stainless trowel.:thumbup:


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## CatD7 (Jul 25, 2011)

Mountain Man said:


> Eyeball drywall-it's all smoke and mirrors!! I put this on before but it's the truth!!


 

I am an illusionist has much as a drywaller. I don't make it flat, I make it look flat.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

cazna said:


> Ive just been experimenting capt, As i always do, Being a hawk eye painter i see things, Running the 10 then 12, You sand that and somtimes the ten edge shows, So using a 7 twice tight then a 12 tight seams to be producing a nice flat seam, Dealing with shoulders a little, Edge sanding very well. Like buck said the finished seam isnt 12 wide, I run a 5.5 dm box on the screws as well, When thats sanded its more like 3.5 finished, Im a pc sander as well, If i finsihed with a ten, Sanded that, It would be 9 or 8 so hello nasty shoulders it would be, But how awsome if could, So back to Tapepros 8 box with 5.5 reducer plate, Ive just been thinking using that with the plate 5.5 behind the tape, Then take off the plate and run 8, Then tight 12 just might be the ducks nuts??? I could hand sand, But stuff that, I sanded two, 2 story 2 bed units, All flats and screws in 3 hrs a few weeks back with the pc and vac, Thats 7 then 12 box, Boy does it edge sand fast and well. Feel free to tell me im wrong and full of sh!t if you think so, Im always listening and will never know it all, You have more experance than me so let me have it :thumbsup::yes:


 Whatever works for you is what matters, I was just getting folks to think about it. We need to continually analyze our procedures to keep them adjusted. 

Have you "bowed" your box blade?? over a 2x4? to put a tiny crown in it??? That makes a tremendous difference on your bedding box when it comes to "filling", leaving a fuller bed.

do you use screens on your pc?


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## br549 (Jun 2, 2012)

cazna said:


> If i finsihed with a ten, Sanded that, It would be 9 or 8 so hello nasty shoulders it would be


^^^This. The farther out we start the coat to a high shoulder, the less gradual the buildup from where the high shoulder _should_ be is to where it's raised up to. The less noticible it is to light shining across it. Smaller box = steeper build = more noticible. That's why I run 10-12. Thought about asking my old boss about getting his old TT 14" box off of him, just to have it when I run into shoulder city.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Whatever works for you is what matters, I was just getting folks to think about it. We need to continually analyze our procedures to keep them adjusted.
> 
> Have you "bowed" your box blade?? over a 2x4? to put a tiny crown in it??? That makes a tremendous difference on your bedding box when it comes to "filling", leaving a fuller bed.
> 
> do you use screens on your pc?


I do check the crown on the blades, Sometimes they need a little bend in them as you say but prob not often enough, I just use the standard 220g yellow sanding discs, Wear em done a little on bare board first then swipe the seams over fast, Its all they need, And the 7 then 12 edge sands fast and well.



br549 said:


> Thought about asking my old boss about getting his old TT 14" box off of him, just to have it when I run into shoulder city.


 
A 14 inch box?? Really?? Kiwiman only mentioned that a few weeks back, So someone has made one before???


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## br549 (Jun 2, 2012)

It was a Tapetech, I don't know how old it was. I ran it about 13 years ago, and I don't remember enjoying it much! We would run 10-12 on 2 coat jobs and 3rd coat with the 14 on the higher dollar jobs. Talk about a glass coat, it was sweet to sand.


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## br549 (Jun 2, 2012)

I bet the Capt likes to see his "Why a 12"?" thread go from "Why a 12" to "that 14 is sweet!" Bet he's runnin out to get one right now :lol: :jester:


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## br549 (Jun 2, 2012)

Hold on a sec, I may be wrong here. Just called the old boss and he said he's never had a 14" box. I told him I remembered houses that I had to run it in, but he doesn't remember it. I might be thinking of back when we ran 7-10 and we could have been 3rd coating with a 12, but I remember him not buying a 12 until we switched to 10-12. I think he's crazy, but still I could be wrong about TT making a 14...


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## Mountain Man (Oct 28, 2012)

I just asked my partner about the 14" box and he said he's never seen one other. He's been drywall ing 27 years. He said anybody who would want to push one of them is in too deep!!


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

See guys,,,, it has turned into a 12??? heck lets go 14, so we won't have a problem!!!!!

Why don't we just level5 the whole thing?????


I am trying to say ,,,, if you figure it out, you can think "smaller", NOT "BIGGER"


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

7 box then 10 box....Ready for sand right?


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

moore said:


> 7 box then 10 box....Ready for sand right?


Looks to me like all it needs is some sandpaper, but what are all THOSE nail spots about??????? humm?????


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Looks to me like all it needs is some sandpaper, but what are all THOSE nail spots about??????? humm?????


 What's wrong with my screw heads??:blink:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

moore said:


> What's wrong with my screw heads??:blink:


 I thought they weren't supposed to be there,,,,LOL:thumbup:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I thought they weren't supposed to be there,,,,LOL:thumbup:


 There not....:whistling2:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

I think i'll give her another pass......


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

moore said:


> I think i'll give her another pass......


 are you saying you like to hump ?????

put down the coors and step away from the wall !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Tucker (Feb 2, 2012)

moore said:


> I think i'll give her another pass......


So what are you going to do now mr. moore? run a 12 down the middle, or hit the high side with a 7 or 8?..mud placement is the key, but i am sure you already know that:yes:


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

moore said:


> 7 box then 10 box....Ready for sand right?


So, is it ready to sand or are you gonna 12 it?
Looks real good in the pic, I'd sand it.:thumbup:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Tucker said:


> So what are you going to do now mr. moore? run a 12 down the middle, or hit the high side with a 7 or 8?..mud placement is the key, but i am sure you already know that:yes:


 onion skin...Then hit the edges with 180 grit..if that..I really don't see a need for,, sand,,sand,,sand. Or I could skip the onion skin ,and buy one of those board burning swirl mark machines....naw...I'll stick with my sanding pads.:jester:


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## sdrdrywall (Sep 4, 2010)

moore said:


> onion skin...Then hit the edges with 180 grit..if that..I really don't see a need for,, sand,,sand,,sand. Or I could skip the onion skin ,and buy one of those board burning swirl mark machines....naw...I'll stick with my sanding pads.:jester:


Give it time you didn't want the boxes either if i recall


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

RenoRob said:


> So your tapes on the flats aren't buried? Seriously, because I have never been able to get them consistently under the bevel. Some of the Certainteed boards hardly have a bevel, but even with Sheetrock it's hard to get it completely buried, especially between the studs.


It falls under the "chit can happen" category:yes:

If your checking with a light, and you have noticed you have sanded down to the tape, lick your fingers and wet it down. Unless your one of those fussy types, you can use a damp sponge or rag.:yes:

What that does is flatten the burrs that will appear on the tape, so you won't see a rough spot when they paint. technically it could disappear when the painter rough sands his prime coat, But I find it's best not to trust a painter.

What you can't avoid is the EDGE of a tape, you will half to coat that:yes:

And the leafs lost again Renorob


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## CatD7 (Jul 25, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> It falls under the "chit can happen" category:yes:
> 
> If your checking with a light, and you have noticed you have sanded down to the tape, lick your fingers and wet it down. Unless your one of those fussy types, you can use a damp sponge or rag.:yes:
> 
> ...


 
I prime with that sheetrock brand drywall primer. It makes it cool.


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## RenoRob (Nov 6, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> It falls under the "chit can happen" category:yes:
> 
> If your checking with a light, and you have noticed you have sanded down to the tape, lick your fingers and wet it down. Unless your one of those fussy types, you can use a damp sponge or rag.:yes:
> 
> ...


They made it interesting, last goal counted damn it!


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

I like the idea of less is moore. I used an 8 then a 10 to finish. checked with my knife and it was dead nuts. i did have a long seam with two 54" butts. That one may need to be doubled up with the 8". i dont see why you cant do it. My only worry is when the shoulders are on the high side.. I still end up doubling them up when this occurs but may switch from a 10 to an 8.


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## harvey randall (Nov 23, 2010)

Tucker said:


> So what are you going to do now mr. moore? run a 12 down the middle, or hit the high side with a 7 or 8?..mud placement is the key, but i am sure you already know that:yes:


 the middle is 2 and a half feet wide, and every body knows it. just dont wants think the studs and board is that bad, unless they are crowned in, then you hve a flat that is nothing more then a horizontal butt . factor in the chit rock and its kinda like capt says- just throwhing it out there. "these days its never one thing, but all of the wisdom on this site, give us a fighting chance.


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