# High Shoulders



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

No not your own pair of worn out shoulders but the shoulders on your wallboard im wondering about???

Im not sure what you would call it but here in nz the makers of our wallboard call it shoulders, or high shoulders to be exact.
Its the point were the bevel starts and tapers down to the edge, sometimes this point is raised which sure can make flatboxing interesting.

I did use a 14inch trowel for finish coating by hand so burying these was easy as you could see them and get them under the mud but with boxing it a different story, they can ride on this point.

Ok set more crown on the box your saying but then it can be to much crown and not very flat. 

So anyway in these pics i have taped then 7 boxed, then 10 boxed, fairly tight but not to tight as you can see there is a fair amount of mud past the shoulder then i will 12 box and try to get these just buryed so just a light sand is needed but not to expose them. As i said, i could set the crown higher but then its a bit much and you can make out the seam under harsh light and we just cant be having that now can we.
I have been using usg total which is a little see though which does not help with coverage.
And tape tech easy clean boxes with the 10 box being set on 2 so its not that tight, a 1 setting would be a bit much mud.

I have read on here some 8 box then 12, others 7 then 10, so im just wondering if your wallboard is like this or is it just us in nz??? And how would you box board like this??? it can change along the length of the board, appear for a few feet then dissapear, some areas worse than others etc and need more attention. 

So please be nice and any input on this would be great, cheers.
And the last pic is the project in mention added just to make this post more interesting.


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## suncoast drywaller (Sep 4, 2009)

I would say the problem is with the board you are using ,therefore its a manufacturer problem .I would suggest you get your supplier to have a look at this job .It may also be no big deal when painted . How many choices of board do you have 
e02699f2-6ef1-42ee-b41f-67b48cd0d227
1.03.01


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

suncoast drywaller said:


> I would say the problem is with the board you are using ,therefore its a manufacturer problem .I would suggest you get your supplier to have a look at this job .It may also be no big deal when painted . How many choices of board do you have
> e02699f2-6ef1-42ee-b41f-67b48cd0d227
> 1.03.01


Well we have GIB then just for a change we have GIB then if we feel like using something different............ we have.....no sorry its GIB agian, In some city centres there is some chinese stuff but only at 2.4m in length, Its always like this, every sheet in every room on every join, in every house, Always!!!! I could have posted a hundred pics of it and it can make angle heads in corners a real bitch as well, Im hoping that other people around the world will say how crap it is and its USG to the rescue and start importing board to save us, or at least i can forward a link to the manufacters of this post, I could ring or get a rep around but it falls on deaf ears, been there done that, i need something stronger than just little me so if its the board then for gods sake let me have it, and if you have a tip for me using the flatbox then let me have it too, Cheers :thumbsup:


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## proficient Mudder (Aug 28, 2010)

I first would screw the board off before it falls off,lol. j/k nice to be able to have no scews.
I would box it as I normally would, a 7" to fill the bevel and a 10" followed by a 12". If you can run a straight edge vertically across the joint and the bevel is full and the shoulders are flat than it's ready for a lite sanding.
Now if I run a straight edge on it with proper coats and the shoulders still protrude, I would definetly be looking for a better product and showing my findings to the supplier that you bought it from.

I could understand that the first coat might bottom out on the shoulders with the bridge of the box, but the next coat should work across it filling it flat.

Nice pic, looks like beautiful Country.
Bill

Just posted and didn't see your last reply.


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## Saul_Surfaces (Jan 8, 2010)

i had a 3 unit place once that had a bowed cement floor under one of the units. As the framing settled over the bulge, I started seeing the same high shoulder effect in the one unit. It must have been settling as we did it though, because the effect didn't show up on the first coat, just when we sanded, and only on the south side of each joint.

Finishing every joint like a butt joint sucked. But it looked good when we finished.


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

What I do Caz is wipe after the 7" box with a 12" knife then I open the 10" box fully then wipe with a 12" knife, then the 12" box set on 3 and no wiping, the high shoulders are more of a problem where things are'nt straight for me. I want the old board back with the smaller less vicious taper and not riddled with factory dents, Winstones quality control needs there arse kicked.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

just a guess here cazna,but if it's drywalled on wood then it's from the crown/bow of the wood.example, picture one,if the joint on the opposite side of the wall has a heavy fill,then there's your answer.picture 2 is a high wall,so more crowning or bowing(if no pony wall on top when they framed)
so if it's doing it ,here and there,it's the framing,if it's all through the house then it's the dry wall.put a straight edge against the wall if it's here and there sporadic spots,and you will find your answer
and no screws to coat ,not fair!!!!!!!!!!


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Those look like what we can get when the tin they're calling steel studs on many commercial jobs twists a bit at times when guys are screwing standups to them.

My shot at a possible boxing solution: With your problem being consistent with every board, and not an improper install issue, I might consider treating the horizontal flats a little like long horizontal butt joints (doing one of those right now, in a hotel basement that flooded and the bottom ~3' of all the drywall was cut off and replaced).

I 1st might try running a 12" over the tape. Once that dried, then run an 8 or 10" on the top 1/2 of that, and then the bottom of that, maybe overlapping them a little in the middle. If time permits, maybe wait till the one side dries before running the other side. I'd play around with box settings till I got what seemed to work best.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Cheers for the posts guys, i found out today that some of the walls have been stuffed with sound batts and are pushing on the board which does not help.

I have been able to cover them with the 12 box, coat first set on 3, let the mud set up a little then go over again both ways set on 2, gives me a fair cover and something to sand on with out cutting through to easily.

Hey kiwiman seems like they like our walls with no screws and using glue instead, have you ever got a big level and held it agianst the wall to see whats up??? well heres a few pics to show what happens.

And yes winstone wallboards your products are getting worse, there were actully stones between two factory sheets on this job which scratched the hell out of them, and WTF is with this huge arse bevel??? I now try and get the builder to use tapered edge one side and cut the egde off and corners, i have started prefilling them now.

As you can see the glue lumps make the walls bowed instead, yes everywall is like this.

And bill yes we do have some great features here in nz, almost every geographic type of area you can get, makes for some interesting places to go.

Oh and the second pic and the top of this post is a ceiling/lid, i took the pic holding the camara the wrong way, there is one row of screws you can just see, i have just hand spotted them once so they a bit small at this stage, yes i have nail spotters but find it just as easy doing them by hand.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm quite familiar with high shoulders, and it's definitely the rock. You can walk up to a fresh pile of it leaning against the wall and put a straight edge on it and it's quite humped.

Depending on your how light your texture is going to be, it can really be an issue. If you run with any sort of standard box-work, you will have seams that show. In most cases you'll either need to split the seam like a butt, or hand float to make it go away. I warned one of our tapers about this a few years ago, and I marked all the humps before his final touch-up. He ignored my "suggestion" and let the house get primed and sprayed. And then he had to go back in and float all the seams and take the back charge for re-texture. We started checking rock before hang and telling the supplier we wanted a discount for the extra labor we would incur.

On a big level 5 job, I ended up putting a third coat on the seams with a 20" trowel. High shoulders are a pain in the posterior.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Hi slim pickins
We dont do wall textures here in nz so its all smooth wall.
Thanks for you input, So other brands do have high shoulders as well, Thats what i was wondering, just how common it is??? Sounds like we have all got it before then, Dosnt it suck.

So how many of us have seen wallboard getting made??? it quite amazing to watch, Two huge rolls of paper getting spun off and liquid plaster getting shot between the sheets then it goes along a huge table with rollers about 40feet long and the taper is made by the shape of the outside edges of the table, the liquid plaster is kinda squeezed back into the board from the taper which can cause this high shoulder bump.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

cazna
hope that was not you holding that level in that picture,those don't look like safety shoes 
safety 1st cazna.........bad cazna:jester:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

I think you need a new level, that one's all bowed and curvy....and stuff.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

My understanding and experience says improper rock job and could of been avoided but your going to have to be a drywall repair guy on this one now .

I could go into details but that's a Tricks Of The Trade thread post I think.

When I feel up to it, one day ...........


Hint:
A couple finishers on here have already mentioned on part of the problem in past posts


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

here's a hint,there's a reason why I go dd 10" box,your watching (what you call shoulders) what their doing,in your 3rd pic your box work runs straight,it should of looked like a letter "S",say you run a wall joint and you see Grey on the top,run your box a couple of inches lower next pass,etc,etc,see 2 solid grey lines,you half to do what slim pickens was talking about,dd wide or build out by hand :yes:
if every box run in your house is a perfect straight line!!!!!!?????????????????????????????????????? get what I mean,double run you 10",you maybe surprised,lets you know where to run high or low


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Ha ha ha, 2buck yes they are my steel cap rubber toe leather boots from italy, been great as well nearly 2.5 years now and still going strong.

Hey slim pickins it not the level dude, thats the walls, we dont screw the centres of the sheets here that caused to many pops so then they told us to use glue instead and im holding a level against the wall to show you what the walls are like, the botton pic is the glue lump behind the board which holds it out, True im not bul!$h!ting you, ALL the walls are like that in All the houses, some walls are worse than others, The walls are kinda doing a letter M, starts at the top then peeks out to glue lump, then peeks into the seam then peeks back out to a glue lump then goes back into the floor. Take another look at the pics thats what im showing you. Fun Huh.

And Mudstar, thank you for your input but thats actually very good rock job done by a very experanced and well respected builder, it gets no better than this, see what we have to deal with, My only way of comparing things is to get on here and ask you guys if this is what its like for you, and its going great, thanks.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> here's a hint,there's a reason why I go dd 10" box,your watching (what you call shoulders) what their doing,in your 3rd pic your box work runs straight,it should of looked like a letter "S",say you run a wall joint and you see Grey on the top,run your box a couple of inches lower next pass,etc,etc,see 2 solid grey lines,you half to do what slim pickens was talking about,dd wide or build out by hand :yes:
> if every box run in your house is a perfect straight line!!!!!!?????????????????????????????????????? get what I mean,double run you 10",you maybe surprised,lets you know where to run high or low


 
I see, i get you, good point :thumbsup: I ran a seven tightish then a 10 tightish then a 12 once on 3, let tack up then run it on 2 both ways, that gave me a nice fill but not to much and smoothed out any pocks, today i went around and troweled the beads and looked over the flats for any shoulders etc that needed it and troweled swiped a few, seemed to work out ok. but will give your way ago next time round, thanks.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

cazna said:


> And Mudstar, thank you for your input but thats actually very good rock job done by a very experanced and well respected builder, it gets no better than this, see what we have to deal with, My only way of comparing things is to get on here and ask you guys if this is what its like for you, and its going great, thanks.



If it gets no better then this cazna your an afficial drywall repair man like most. 

The roc installation and finishing methods has caused this 

Improper fastening and 2buck has touched on another point onhow you run your boxes too


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

I hate to bring down your builder Caz but going by those pics I don't think he has spent enough time on buzzing the frame, either that or the frame warped after it was buzzed, also the sheets can bow out in the middle if temp screws aren't used, the high shoulders are still a problem none the less.


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## proficient Mudder (Aug 28, 2010)

[quote

Hey slim pickins it not the level dude, thats the walls, we dont screw the centres of the sheets here that caused to many pops so then they told us to use glue instead and im holding a level against the wall to show you what the walls are like, the botton pic is the glue lump behind the board which holds it out, True im not bul!$h!ting you, ALL the walls are like that in All the houses, some walls are worse than others, The walls are kinda doing a letter M, starts at the top then peeks out to glue lump, then peeks into the seam then peeks back out to a glue lump then goes back into the floor. Take another look at the pics thats what im showing you.[/quote]

I would hate the idea, knowing that glue lumps are bowing the walls. I have seen it before around here where guys would glue the board without screwing as they go trying to get footage and come back the next day and screw the board off after the glue had already setup leaving humped walls and popped screws once the heat shrinks the glue back.

If they don't want the screws to stay because of the same similarities, I would have the hangers glue the board and than screw at least every other stud,give the board a day with it nice and warm in the house and come back after proper glue setting and take the screws out and than just spot the small screw pull holes, leaving no scews to pop and giving proper glue setting. it would be alittle time consuming but with better quality and possibly rid most of the high shoulders and leaving straighter walls.

Bill


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Caz, I agree with Slim, I think someone used your level as a loading ramp! There is nothing wrong with that wall! :jester:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Its the walls i tell you??? The walls, the levels a minter :thumbsup:

If you dont believe me then come down for a look, i will make up the spare bed and put some beers in the fridge and crank up the BBQ.

Hey kiwiman? you keen on a piss up too? :jester:


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

Did someone just say free whisky? Look out the window, I'll be pulling up the drive any second. We can sit around the fire and take the piss out of 2buck behind his back :jester:...He thinks rugby is a gay sissy's game.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

rugby is the most dangerous ,mean spirited,evilest sport in the world..............after hockey
do I get a invite now!!!!!:jester::whistling2:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

I know your drywall was defective,but when you come across the odd shoulder/grey,run your box more like this.Thats why we double 10 while wet,1st pass just rundown the middle,then 15 30 minutes later run again but this time your fixing by watching the GREY spots/areas ,your going up or down,left or right ,or straight down the middle again if all is good,you make it level,and skim TIGHT !!!!!!! with the 12":yes:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Thats a clever little diagram, cheers for that, Yep your invited now :thumbsup:


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## proficient Mudder (Aug 28, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> I know your drywall was defective,but when you come across the odd shoulder/grey,run your box more like this.Thats why we double 10 while wet,1st pass just rundown the middle,then 15 30 minutes later run again but this time your fixing by watching the GREY spots/areas ,your going up or down,left or right ,or straight down the middle again if all is good,you make it level,and skim TIGHT !!!!!!! with the 12":yes:


I have tried this before too over the years, me personally I like the idea that it catches the pitting pretty good, saves brushing out between coats and leave some fill after the time spaced for setting, but for me I didn't feel that I was saving that much because It still is 3 coating plus going over mud that hasn't dried it doesn't allow the mud to shrink until afterwards, so the 12" is doing more filling than skimming. 

It's all in what works best for us, I guess I just take the long road.

Bill


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## redgy85 (Sep 19, 2010)

The Aust/NZS2589 2007 states that every second stud to have a block of plasterboard with a screw or nail through it and the sheet to hold it back until the glue dries. When the glue is dry the block and screw removed and the small screw hole set over. Also shoulders are mostly caused by the setting belt being worn on the board line.


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## croozer (Jun 7, 2009)

*correct technique*



redgy85 said:


> The Aust/NZS2589 2007 states that every second stud to have a block of plasterboard with a screw or nail through it and the sheet to hold it back until the glue dries. When the glue is dry the block and screw removed and the small screw hole set over. Also shoulders are mostly caused by the setting belt being worn on the board line.


Redgy is absolutley correct in his quoted way of fixing board. It must have some tempory fixings till the glue drys. Having said that, the boards in your pics are sitting proud on glue, thus giving the waved effect demonstrated by the level.This usually will not cause any great problems really, but I have seen issues arise in Kitchens/bathrooms where cabnetry is being installed and the straight edges show the un-eveness of the wall. As for the high shoulders, Winstones here in Christchurch have known about the problem for years. An ex company rep told me that they feel it is more ecconomic to pay the odd client out with a level 5 finish to rectify the job than spend 300k to install new belts at the factory and fix the problem.This comes straight from the horses mouth as this bloke used to go out on site and organize the repairs.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

If thats true croozer then what a bunch off asses you are flintstone wallboards, I have known of a house this side of the mountains that the owners complained of the crap plastering job, the plasterer blamed the high shoulders and flint, i mean winstone wallboards paid for the whole house to be fixed and repainted, about 8 years ago now, maybe this thread should be forwarded to them, not that it would make much difference though. They need some compition to give them a stir up.


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

According to the pics, I've seen much worse.

I'd worry more about those skinny butts.


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

Know what, though? I would question how it was stored in the supplier warehouse before ever concluding that the board is defective.

I've seen board stacked on dunnege for just over a week and it caused permanent sagging of the board.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Those skinny butts are only 2nd coated in those pics, they got 3rd coated and 18 inched troweled out.

And it wasnt stored, the board was ordered from the factory and delivered to the job, what you cant see are the 6 sheets with stone scratches in it, they came factory sealed face to face taped ends sheets of board with stone in between the sheets, all scratched up, they got skimmed up.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

cazna said:


> Those skinny butts are only 2nd coated in those pics, they got 3rd coated and 18 inched troweled out.
> 
> And it wasnt stored, the board was ordered from the factory and delivered to the job, what you cant see are the 6 sheets with stone scratches in it, they came factory sealed face to face taped ends sheets of board with stone in between the sheets, all scratched up, they got skimmed up.


factory sealed face to face taped ends sheets of board with stone in between the sheets, all scratched up
thats funny,was it stamped some where on the drywall "proudly union made" too !!!!


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## proficient Mudder (Aug 28, 2010)

croozer said:


> Redgy is absolutley correct in his quoted way of fixing board. It must have some tempory fixings till the glue drys. Having said that, the boards in your pics are sitting proud on glue, thus giving the waved effect demonstrated by the level.This usually will not cause any great problems really, but I have seen issues arise in Kitchens/bathrooms where cabnetry is being installed and the straight edges show the un-eveness of the wall. As for the high shoulders, Winstones here in Christchurch have known about the problem for years. An ex company rep told me that they feel it is more ecconomic to pay the odd client out with a level 5 finish to rectify the job than spend 300k to install new belts at the factory and fix the problem.This comes straight from the horses mouth as this bloke used to go out on site and organize the repairs.


I posted this fixing board technique about at least screwing every stud to set the glue early in this thread. It is impossible to have a flat wall if the board is not flat against the studs. The glue can't set consistant, so leaving each board floating on glue at different heights, leaving offset board.
Bill


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

We don't use glue at all, I hate it, and refuse to use it.

We have the same problem here with the "hard edges" on rock that has no glue behind it. Mostly NG (old gold-bond). Not seen a problem with USG rock.

The only effective remedy I have found is to walk the walls and ceilings after the bed coat and "bust out" any areas that show the edge by hand, before skimming with the final box coat.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

we tend to find the 12" box gets rid of those bust out areas:whistling2:


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