# Mud Flow on Taper



## ColumbiaTechSupport (Aug 13, 2010)

Hello all, I'm working on a larger cable drum to address the need for some people who would prefer more mud from there Tapers and would like to know what percentage of more mud is wanted. Please let me know so I know where to start.


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Hi Aaron
From what I have read from other posts the mud flow would be best if it could be altered on the job. (More mud for angles, and not so much for flats). Is is possible to have two speed gearing? I know that I am over simplifing it in saying that a flick of a lever could be the answer but it is just a thought. Sorry that I didnt answer your question.


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

The problem is in the corners where some corners have tapers and some don't. maybe just different sized drums as optional extra's that the user can change themselves.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

Oh my Gawd !!!!! Aaron don't listen to these guys,,,,, they are asking for too much. (foerigners I belive)

The reason we want more mud is two-fold.
1) We could use more mud in the flats, just not enough delivered by the zooka's
2)In the corners there is NOT enough mud to glaze the corner with just an anglehead on a pole.


I would suggest to try a drum, then try glazing it with an anglehead on a pole. That will tell one of two things

1) not enough mud
2) too much mud

really, even tho we cry cause things in this world are not perfect,,,, what we REALLY need, is a zooka that will deliever enough mud to glaze with a 3" head on a pole.


In a word,,,,,, theres your answer.

Peace,, and THANK YOU COLUMBIA for addressing this issue !!!!!:thumbup:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Kiwiman said:


> The problem is in the corners where some corners have tapers and some don't. maybe just different sized drums as optional extra's that the user can change themselves.


 
I now pre fill with hot corners like that, then tape. 

Capt is right though, Its hopeless trying to run a 3 head, its to dry, A 2.5 works, But then you have tails and mess to touch up, Mudrun behind the roller with a 3.5 or 4 and its clean, not so much mess to clean up, Then run a 2 to finsh, Fast clean and very little corner picking needed.

I will post some pics soon, I did this yesterday.


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## Cratter (Sep 6, 2010)

cazna said:


> I now pre fill with hot corners like that, then tape.
> 
> Capt is right though, Its hopeless trying to run a 3 head, its to dry, A 2.5 works, But then you have tails and mess to touch up, Mudrun behind the roller with a 3.5 or 4 and its clean, not so much mess to clean up, Then run a 2 to finsh, Fast clean and very little corner picking needed.
> 
> I will post some pics soon, I did this yesterday.


The two inch doesn't scratch the previous 3.5 inch coat? 

I know it scratches the flats when you run the angle box. Hence the reason I coat my angles before I finish my butts/flats.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

Cratter said:


> The two inch doesn't scratch the previous 3.5 inch coat?
> 
> I know it scratches the flats when you run the angle box. Hence the reason I coat my angles before I finish my butts/flats.


Not if the first coat is dry !!!!!:thumbsup:


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## msd (Apr 10, 2011)

we run 3 inch on tape coat no problems it filling 95% of the time then we run 2 inch on 2nd coat then 3.5 on finish corners are like glass smooth just sand . edges. i think the big thing to get corners to run on tape coat and fill in with 3 inch on tape coat is a good roller. when your rolling corners you have to lean on the roller pretty hard depending on mud consistancy to get tape good and square so 3 inch will fill in on tape coat.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

gazman said:


> Hi Aaron
> From what I have read from other posts the mud flow would be best if it could be altered on the job. (More mud for angles, and not so much for flats). Is is possible to have two speed gearing? I know that I am over simplifing it in saying that a flick of a lever could be the answer but it is just a thought. Sorry that I didnt answer your question.


well Aaron, oh fellow Canuck:whistling2: this foreigner agrees with Gazman

More for the angles and less for the flats.

Don't know if that is possible, for I'm not the most mechanical guy.

My own personal situation, I switched the order of the Angle heads (2.5 to 3.5) I don't see a problem getting a 3" to run, but for those trying to get a 3.5 to run, the mud has to be extremely runny.

Also, I'm sure other guys do this but, sometimes we will go room by room. ( or if doing high stuff or garages) So we will hit the angles 1st then do the flats, that way we don't tare every flat tape off at the ends. But when your mud is super runny to do the angles, and you go to do your flat tapes, the mud is too runny for the flats. Guess thats why I go with the 2.5, you can get a middle ground mixture with the mud , that will do angles and flats.

Hope you understand what I am saying, think your one of the few tool manufacturers that knows how to tape, or knows how to run his own tools


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## croozer (Jun 7, 2009)

*just a thought*

if the angles are truely square then a 2.5 head will cover , no probs.I find that any gap, out of square or taper(recess), which is most times, will make the corner run dry on first(tapeing) coat. I just use a 3" for second coat and then top with 3.5...perfect angles every time..I believe there are too many variables to try and do corners with 2 coats, so I just accept that they need 3 coats to achieve the desired finish.I am also doing them with an angle box, which is just so quick. As for more mud in joints, why? My col taper puts out exactly the right amount to tape with. I am just tapeing then wipeing off clean, then run the 8' fatboy over them to fill taper(recess) perfect.I reckon that you want the tape to be applied to joints with as little amount of mud behind as you can and allow to dry and shrink back into taper to prevent peaking and tracking. Just my opinion that the col taper works just fine and trying to add gears, spare spools etc is just something else to go wrong(break-wear out) in an industry where you and I really cant afford down time....just my opinion


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

When you can master your corners,,lots of patience and practice-- 2 coats is all you need. I,ve been able to roll/ glaze 1st day, then final coat next day and they are done. I do thank Capt for the larger to smaller angle head trick,, we can all learn something new--or at least give it a try.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

DSJOHN said:


> When you can master your corners,,lots of patience and practice-- 2 coats is all you need. I,ve been able to roll/ glaze 1st day, then final coat next day and they are done. I do thank Capt for the larger to smaller angle head trick,, we can all learn something new--or at least give it a try.


 I think that is THE hardest thing for those of us in this trade,,,,, TRY SOMETHING new and give it a shot.

All the arguments in this thread are sound,,,, however,,,, EVERY single zooka taper you asks says"I wish the zooka would put out abit more mud":yes:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I think that is THE hardest thing for those of us in this trade,,,,, TRY SOMETHING new and give it a shot.
> 
> All the arguments in this thread are sound,,,, however,,,, EVERY single zooka taper you asks says"I wish the zooka would put out abit more mud":yes:


Oh I get it now with this post, maybe I was drinking last night:blink:

Yes, if you had to choose between more or less mud from the zookie, you would choose more. That foreigner Gazman got me all confused, I wanted the best of 2 worlds :blink:

Percentage more of mud, I would say........... 20% more......... maybe....

Guess the question is what percentage more in mud:yes:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

....


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

ColumbiaTechSupport said:


> Hello all, I'm working on a larger cable drum to address the need for some people who would prefer more mud from there Tapers and would like to know what percentage of more mud is wanted. Please let me know so I know where to start.


I'm thinking it would depend on what you wanted to accomplish, and if the positives would be enough to outweigh the negatives. I'd maybe try around 2buck's 20% 1st. Whether that really would be enough to sufficiently address such issues as corners with bevels, or if they still would need more attention than corners built without bevels, ...... . If that wouldn't do it, then maybe 25%? That would be a max I'm thinking, and even that would be pushing it maybe too far - for me. After that, I'd lose too much footage per tube refill, ......


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

JustMe said:


> Whether that really would be enough to sufficiently address such issues as corners with bevels, or if they still would need more attention than corners built without bevels, ...... .


Speaking of this, has anyone given thought, or tried, pre-filling a corner bevel with mud from an inside applicator? Maybe block one side of the plastic applicator, when there's just one bevel, and use the other side to pre-fill them, just before running a bazooka tape in there?


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## taper71 (Dec 9, 2007)

JustMe said:


> Speaking of this, has anyone given thought, or tried, pre-filling a corner bevel with mud from an inside applicator? Maybe block one side of the plastic applicator, when there's just one bevel, and use the other side to pre-fill them, just before running a bazooka tape in there?


 Ive done this. It makes a mess and causes way to much drag, Ive also tried running with the applicator after rolling ( again realy messsy ). The quickest method Ive found is just to have a bucket of mud you kick around with you and addd the extra mud you need with the roller before running your angle head. 

As for how much more. The only way I can think of to explain is the with the old style hopper , with the gate. The mud on the tape needs to have about an 1/16 to an 1/8 more mud on it IMO.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

JustMe said:


> Speaking of this, has anyone given thought, or tried, pre-filling a corner bevel with mud from an inside applicator? Maybe block one side of the plastic applicator, when there's just one bevel, and use the other side to pre-fill them, just before running a bazooka tape in there?


 
Or you could get one of these, They are handy Justme.

http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/Corner-Bead-Mud-Heads/L-Trim-Mud-Head.html

I have been hotmud prefilling first, That sorts it, easy nice corner from then on.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

taper71 said:


> Ive done this. It makes a mess and causes way to much drag,


A question: Were you using a Can-Am inside applicator, or a plastic one? If a plastic, did you try to direct the mud flow in some way? Eg. Did you block off one side, or did you apply mud to both sides?



cazna said:


> Or you could get one of these, They are handy Justme.
> 
> http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/Corner-Bead-Mud-Heads/L-Trim-Mud-Head.html
> 
> I have been hotmud prefilling first, That sorts it, easy nice corner from then on.


I had one of those "Doh!" moments when I read your text, before I opened your link, knowing what you were probably linking to.

It's a good idea for a ready made solution. One thing I might like about blocking one side of a plastic inside corner applicator is that I could coat a bevel in a corner by approaching it straight on, rather than having to squeeze towards one side of the wall - some of those could get pretty hard, pretty tight to do. Same when trying to do it to a bulkhead with a bevel.

But again, good thought.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

Sometimes you tool guys are abit over the top!!!!!!

All this talk about bevels in the corner?????

Try this,,, after the job is hung (even if I hang it) I mix me up some 20 min and walk the job and pre-fill all the gaps. I just run the "beveled corner with the prefill mud.

Its fast and effective,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, not very glamourous tho.

However, its faster than tools and you don't have a bounch of clean-up

here's the deal,,, you can get it hung and spend 30 minutes pre-filling it,,,,,,,, or you can spend TWO EXTRA DAYS hanging it.

It only matters what it looks like when its painted.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Flushing a tube and cleaning an applicator head isn't a bunch of work, Capt. Mixing 20 minute and cleaning up after takes a bit of time as well. 

"_30 minutes pre-filling_" - not on one of the jobs I'm back and forth to right now. A new school. There's beveled corners throughout in places, with ones a little hard to reach without something like tubes to help.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

JustMe said:


> Flushing a tube and cleaning an applicator head isn't a bunch of work, Capt. Mixing 20 minute and cleaning up after takes a bit of time as well.
> 
> "_30 minutes pre-filling_" - not on one of the jobs I'm back and forth to right now. A new school. There's beveled corners throughout in places, with ones a little hard to reach without something like tubes to help.


Drive on brother

but I have to say,,,, If you take a 1/2 pan of AP, throw in a cpl handfull's of 20, stir it back and forth with your 5" knife, then walk around and prefill what needs it, using the pan up, you can just scrape your pan clean with your 5 and your done. I do believe thats quicker than cleaning a tube,,, I could be wrong tho,,, just see my new sig line


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

I don't think you're wrong, Capt. Different jobs, different situations, can make for one method making more sense one time, and another method making more sense another time. I'm thinking what you proposed would've made more sense for 3 of the last 4 jobs I've been on over the last couple weeks (some smaller jobs I had to do), and for some of the 4th one.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

JustMe said:


> I don't think you're wrong, Capt. Different jobs, different situations, can make for one method making more sense one time, and another method making more sense another time. I'm thinking what you proposed would've made more sense for 3 of the last 4 jobs I've been on over the last couple weeks (some smaller jobs I had to do), and for some of the 4th one.


Ya know,,, thats where so many dissagreements come from,,, I think,,,,, your talking one job,, I'm thinking another job.

Theres a hundred ways to skin a cat,,,, and the CAT ain't gonna like any of em !!!


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## croozer (Jun 7, 2009)

*or*

or you could just run the 3 angle heads to cover ALL internal corner variables.........fast, easy and only have to clean up 1 extra angle heads....but, but, but.....................


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

croozer said:


> ....but, but, but.....................


What's the matter. Break something? :jester:

:thumbsup:


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## ColumbiaTechSupport (Aug 13, 2010)

Great so it sounds like 20 - 25% more output will be the magic number to work around. I will have something to work around thank you for your responses everyone.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

Cratter said:


> The two inch doesn't scratch the previous 3.5 inch coat?
> 
> I know it scratches the flats when you run the angle box. Hence the reason I coat my angles before I finish my butts/flats.


So if you box after running the angles you don't have to touch up or clean the very inside of the angle ? It is a catch 22 like capt. said let your flats dry or else you are running too heavy of angle mud .. shouldn't have to stain yourself running angles and get a hemorrhoid.:bangin:


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

msd said:


> we run 3 inch on tape coat no problems it filling 95% of the time then we run 2 inch on 2nd coat then 3.5 on finish corners are like glass smooth just sand . edges. i think the big thing to get corners to run on tape coat and fill in with 3 inch on tape coat is a good roller. when your rolling corners you have to lean on the roller pretty hard depending on mud consistancy to get tape good and square so 3 inch will fill in on tape coat.


Really don't have a problem filling when using the 3" angle head only if the mud is too thick or isn't rolled out tight enough. No matter how the bazooka runs I don't think changing the cable spool or drum is the answer. I think it would be a real pain in the arse and who would want to take the time to do it. If you are not leaving enough mud a quick swipe of a flexible 6" over the angle will take care of that when you are staring out the angles. If you are going to go over them 2 more times after it is taped you may as well finish them by hand, which I don't mind doing its just as easy and fast sometime depending on the situation.


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## Justa Hick (Nov 23, 2008)

I see no need for it. It is just going to send you on a walking trip back to the pump more often. Which means that’s more time you’re NOT working on the wall. 

If there isn’t enough mud to fill the flats (recess) then how much are you putting in your pan as you wipe. If you’re constantly running full pans back to the bucket than stop using the pan and carry a 6 or 8 inch knife in each hand. 

Use the knives to put ALL the tapeing mud back over the tape to FIlLL the recess like it is supposeIf the mud is not flowing out to the edges of recess something is wrong. You’re taking it off the wall instead of leaving it there. Your mud is to stiff and won’t wipe out from under the tape and is humping your joint. Your wiper gut is falling behind and the mud is drying before he gets to it and it won’t squeeze out.

If you don’t carry a pan you will have to put it back into the recess then you have plenty and don't need more mud. My brother did this lots aAll the mud went back on the recess. Filled em right up. He was standing, walking there any way so it does not take any longer. Same pace as wiping with pan. Actually probably faster cause he did not waste time going back to the pail to dump the pan. Finish coat goes faster as less mud is needed to fill the joints as they have more in them from the start. 

Think about it. If you are carrying pan full away from the wall then won't you just make 20% more trips back to the bucket with more pan fulls?
You’re not making money walking to and from the bucket. Think CFS. Always working, no fill the pan, box, tube walk around daydreaming time. 
CFS, always walking down the wall. Always churning out finished board.
Angles. 

Lack of mud? I presume you mean the coat over mud to feather over the edges. Just put you 7 or 8 or mud runner on with the angle head. Run it instead of just the stick. It adds mud where the angle is sunken, offset, recessed edges (which eat up mud). Fill it with plus 3 or your favorite low shrink finish box coat mud. Doesn't have to be AP as it is not behind the tape gluing it on. 

Angles vary two much to have one method, head combination, work all the time.
Wall tops usually have recess both sides. Suck up mud like crazy. Up and downs usually have butt end with no recess so should have too much mud coming out. Then there is just no figuring for bad hangers on top of bad framing and bad factory board. 

Think Mounds and Almond Joy. Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. A corner box, finisher box, will add mud when the tape 'feels' like it. It won't when it don't. A full box goes a fair ways as most of the angle is already filled with the tape and its mud. You will always have a full angle. 

Isn't that what you want?









ColumbiaTechSupport said:


> Hello all, I'm working on a larger cable drum to address the need for some people who would prefer more mud from there Tapers and would like to know what percentage of more mud is wanted. Please let me know so I know where to start.


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## Justa Hick (Nov 23, 2008)

Always prefill lots and lots. It saves time later. We always use 44 or 90 minute. So fires before taping starts. It binds loose board and bad joints better than AP and plus 3 if you tape with that. Before lite way fast set came out my brother also mixed old brown bag durabond with with liteweight redimix. It set reasonable hard. Hardly shrank, and you could sand or scrape the crickets and gophers off of it if you needed to. 





Capt-sheetrock said:


> Drive on brother
> 
> but I have to say,,,, If you take a 1/2 pan of AP, throw in a cpl handfull's of 20, stir it back and forth with your 5" knife, then walk around and prefill what needs it, using the pan up, you can just scrape your pan clean with your 5 and your done. I do believe thats quicker than cleaning a tube,,, I could be wrong tho,,, just see my new sig line


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## msd (Apr 10, 2011)

if we are in a hurry and dont have time to pre fill corners we will doulble tape the corner that has any big gaps. just run the gap only and roll it out then go back and run the entire corner and roll and skim as normal.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm a little late on this post but I'd have to say tooling at the right times and mixing with the right amount of water takes care of any flushing void issues and application of tapes on flats. 

The extrusion of compound from the taper is right now folks but you all are trying to reinvent the wheel again and it not about that, its about using the tools at the right time. Any more mud becomes a waiting game for me and I'll tell you why. 

This is another trick of the trade thread and if you want the truth of the matter I usually don't tell my tricks but I'll touch on my method a bit and let you figure it out for your selves the details. This trick is all in the timing of tool usage and if you been doing this long enough then you know that setting mud is harder to work with isn't it. I don't know why some of you folk like using setting mud because it make the issue worse really.

When taping slick is what you want we all now who slick is don't we, Aaron knows who I'm talking about. Anyways its the viscosity of the mud that makes this all work to your benefit. I know you all ready know this but if you one of the ones wanting to reinvent the tool to get the job done then you still have not figured it out and maybe reading the Columbia tool user guide might help you all out a bit. 

Ok I know what your all thinking now Mudstar is on his high horse again but really I learned this all from using the tools and reading there guide. Thanks to Columbia and there great tools and there instruction there tools work perfect the way there built. 

Well folks I don't want to discourage your creative minds but Columbia Tools had it right with all there first line tool that came out in 1979 from there boxes to the taper all worked perfect with some changes to some of there tools made working thicker compounds easier but then again it all about viscosity folks. Well thats my two cents...............


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mudstar said:


> I'm a little late on this post but I'd have to say tooling at the right times and mixing with the right amount of water takes care of any flushing void issues and application of tapes on flats.
> 
> The extrusion of compound from the taper is right now folks but you all are trying to reinvent the wheel again and it not about that, its about using the tools at the right time. Any more mud becomes a waiting game for me and I'll tell you why.
> 
> ...


Just to add my 2bucks to your 2 cents worth......=$2.02

Those wanting to learn the machines, will appreciate this advice more, rather than ......... Get back to work you slackers:yes::thumbsup:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

Well, I'd like to just like to re-iterate,,,,,,,, EVERY SINGLE bazooka runner I know,,,, wishes they put out more mud than they do!!!!!

So there!!!!!! Even IF you have secert and mysteriuos methods!!!!!


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## taper71 (Dec 9, 2007)

And just to add to what Captain says. I am thinking there are more ppl who want more mud than ppl who don t think its neccassary. Which in buisness terms = give the majority what they want and make the buisness some more money. Gone are the days when they can claim methods over designing what ppl want because of social media.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

taper71 said:


> And just to add to what Captain says. I am thinking there are more ppl who want more mud than ppl who don t think its neccassary. Which in buisness terms = give the majority what they want and make the buisness some more money. Gone are the days when they can claim methods over designing what ppl want because of social media.


 Dern,, I'm impressed,,,, you said that WAY better than I could have,,, and I even thought about it!!!!!


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Well, I'd like to just like to re-iterate,,,,,,,, EVERY SINGLE bazooka runner I know,,,, wishes they put out more mud than they do!!!!!
> 
> So there!!!!!! Even IF you have secert and mysteriuos methods!!!!!



its no secret or mystery its slick ask Aaron for yourself :yes:


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