# Failed Skim Coat Situation



## Lovegasoline

Failed skim coat situation.

I have my own suspicions, but wanted to get some feedback from those with more experience with plaster rather than sheetrock. I have a professional background with sheetrock and painting, but very little with plasterwork. 

I live in an apartment (long term renter) with plaster/wood lathe construction. There’s been construction here to repair a collapsed ceiling due to joist failure from water damage (I was not the contractor). During this construction the owner agreed to skim coat several other rooms, which due to the decades of neglect and were not looking so good. This was a mini renovation of sorts.

The contractor doing the skimming is not licensed with my city (though no license required for work not requiring a permit, such as skimming). He had the usual illegals doing the actual work. The workers were very good mud guys at least with regard to their hand skills. However these walls are 80 years old, have numerous old coats of oil paint and also have numerous coats of latex/acrylic paint over the oil. This is par for the course in an apartment like this in NYC where landlords in apartment buildings looking for a quick buck with no money layout use the cheapest paint possible, unskilled chump labor, fix leaks and every manner of repair (even plumbing) with more ‘plaster and paint’ to conceal it, and cut every corner imaginable. Of course, that’s why the ceiling collapsed. 

One problem at the outset is I am 100% certain that when the first latex coats were painted over the oil decades back, no primer was used. In some areas, the thick coats of latex could be almost peeled off the wall, as there is a very poor bond to the oil substrate.

Prior to skimming I observed the prep work. In some areas they scraped the loose plaster/paint but not 100%…just where it came off easily with a knife. Often this scraping revealed an old oil coat layer with a fair amount of sheen to it, perhaps originally an eggshell or even semi-gloss. That was the only prep work, at best…and other rooms got even less, or no prep work at all. The walls were not deglossed, or cleaned with TSP or other cleanser, or even wiped off with a dry cloth to remove dust. In a hallway, which had numerous thick layers of semi-gloss latex paint, the walls were not prepped AT ALL. No cleaning, no wiping of dust even. Nothing. The skim went directly onto this unprepped substrate. 

I am not the owner and I am not paying for the work. The collapsed ceiling is getting repaired only because I sued the owner. The owner did the skim coating voluntarily it was his idea. 

I observed and commented to the contractor and his workers the necessity to do one or more of the following: a) scrape all old latex paint off to the depth of the unprimed interface between oil/latex, b) sand or use liquid deglossing agent, c) clean thoroughly with TSP or other suitable cleanser and rinse if necessary, d) apply a bonding agent to the wall (PlasterWeld, etc), d) mix a bonding agent into the mud. 

The contractor said he knew what he was doing and he left the scene, rarely returning except to give directives to his workers. The workers looked at me and shock their head yes when I commented on potential bonding issues and how prep, then they went ahead and ignored me: they didn’t do any of this. 

Instead they mixed about 25% plaster Paris into USG Green label premix JC. I suggested Durabond as a first coat, but the contractor said he preferred to use this mix as he’s familiar with it and it works for him. 

The mud guys as I said have very good hand skills. They toweled, knifed, and sanded and got some nice results, one room easily a level 5. The contractor is the one used for all this owner’s buildings, so I was willing to accept he knew what he was doing with regard to the skim coat on these wall types. And as I said, the wall looked good.

I stripped the doors, molding and trim, caulked, then primed and painted with Ben Moore First Coat/Regal line.

This was between about 4-5 months ago (some rooms less than that). As predicted, the hallway skim coat, which received zero prep, is failing. A network of dispersed cracks is appearing. Some cracks are still under the surface while others have broken through. Some areas the skim coat is pulling away from the substrate and cracking. On other areas that to the eye look fine, if I drag my fingernail or tap with my fingernail, I can hear the sound difference where there is a gap behind the skim coat where it is separating from the wall. In some areas a large area (approx. 12” in dia.) although not cracked, has pulled away from the substrate and I can push it back against the substrate about 1/16”-1/8”…there’s an air pocket behind it suggesting a failed bond. With winter here in NYC and lots of heat and lower humidity in the apartment, the problems are accelerating.

That’s the situation. Again, I’m not familiar with plaster, painted/plaster substrates and want some feedback. Based on what I’ve written, would you say that this skim coating was unprofessionally and/or incompetently done? The contractor had returned once to patch a few areas, but each week more and more cracks appear and he does not want to redo the job. In my opinion the place is a ticking time bomb for this skim coat to crack and delaminate, and I dread having to vacate those rooms again and deal with the workers and dust on a redo.


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## fenez

Of course it was done improperly a bonding agent absolutely should have been used as well as addressing any cracks with mesh before skim coating. All too often contractors take the same short cut that was used in your case. BTW when plastering there should be no sanding which means no dust. if they are sanding then it ain't plastering.


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## [email protected]

I agree with all of the above.


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## joepro0000

They needed to prime the old ceiling first for the plaster/mud to stick.


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## d-rock

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


fenez said:


> Of course it was done improperly a bonding agent absolutely should have been used as well as addressing any cracks with mesh before skim coating. All too often contractors take the same short cut that was used in your case. BTW when plastering there should be no sanding which means no dust. if they are sanding then it ain't plastering.


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## d-rock

Lovegasoline said:


> Failed skim coat situation.
> 
> I have my own suspicions, but wanted to get some feedback from those with more experience with plaster rather than sheetrock. I have a professional background with sheetrock and painting, but very little with plasterwork.
> 
> I live in an apartment (long term renter) with plaster/wood lathe construction. There’s been construction here to repair a collapsed ceiling due to joist failure from water damage (I was not the contractor). During this construction the owner agreed to skim coat several other rooms, which due to the decades of neglect and were not looking so good. This was a mini renovation of sorts.
> 
> The contractor doing the skimming is not licensed with my city (though no license required for work not requiring a permit, such as skimming). He had the usual illegals doing the actual work. The workers were very good mud guys at least with regard to their hand skills. However these walls are 80 years old, have numerous old coats of oil paint and also have numerous coats of latex/acrylic paint over the oil. This is par for the course in an apartment like this in NYC where landlords in apartment buildings looking for a quick buck with no money layout use the cheapest paint possible, unskilled chump labor, fix leaks and every manner of repair (even plumbing) with more ‘plaster and paint’ to conceal it, and cut every corner imaginable. Of course, that’s why the ceiling collapsed.
> 
> One problem at the outset is I am 100% certain that when the first latex coats were painted over the oil decades back, no primer was used. In some areas, the thick coats of latex could be almost peeled off the wall, as there is a very poor bond to the oil substrate.
> 
> Prior to skimming I observed the prep work. In some areas they scraped the loose plaster/paint but not 100%…just where it came off easily with a knife. Often this scraping revealed an old oil coat layer with a fair amount of sheen to it, perhaps originally an eggshell or even semi-gloss. That was the only prep work, at best…and other rooms got even less, or no prep work at all. The walls were not deglossed, or cleaned with TSP or other cleanser, or even wiped off with a dry cloth to remove dust. In a hallway, which had numerous thick layers of semi-gloss latex paint, the walls were not prepped AT ALL. No cleaning, no wiping of dust even. Nothing. The skim went directly onto this unprepped substrate.
> 
> I am not the owner and I am not paying for the work. The collapsed ceiling is getting repaired only because I sued the owner. The owner did the skim coating voluntarily it was his idea.
> 
> I observed and commented to the contractor and his workers the necessity to do one or more of the following: a) scrape all old latex paint off to the depth of the unprimed interface between oil/latex, b) sand or use liquid deglossing agent, c) clean thoroughly with TSP or other suitable cleanser and rinse if necessary, d) apply a bonding agent to the wall (PlasterWeld, etc), d) mix a bonding agent into the mud.
> 
> The contractor said he knew what he was doing and he left the scene, rarely returning except to give directives to his workers. The workers looked at me and shock their head yes when I commented on potential bonding issues and how prep, then they went ahead and ignored me: they didn’t do any of this.
> 
> Instead they mixed about 25% plaster Paris into USG Green label premix JC. I suggested Durabond as a first coat, but the contractor said he preferred to use this mix as he’s familiar with it and it works for him.
> 
> The mud guys as I said have very good hand skills. They toweled, knifed, and sanded and got some nice results, one room easily a level 5. The contractor is the one used for all this owner’s buildings, so I was willing to accept he knew what he was doing with regard to the skim coat on these wall types. And as I said, the wall looked good.
> 
> I stripped the doors, molding and trim, caulked, then primed and painted with Ben Moore First Coat/Regal line.
> 
> This was between about 4-5 months ago (some rooms less than that). As predicted, the hallway skim coat, which received zero prep, is failing. A network of dispersed cracks is appearing. Some cracks are still under the surface while others have broken through. Some areas the skim coat is pulling away from the substrate and cracking. On other areas that to the eye look fine, if I drag my fingernail or tap with my fingernail, I can hear the sound difference where there is a gap behind the skim coat where it is separating from the wall. In some areas a large area (approx. 12” in dia.) although not cracked, has pulled away from the substrate and I can push it back against the substrate about 1/16”-1/8”…there’s an air pocket behind it suggesting a failed bond. With winter here in NYC and lots of heat and lower humidity in the apartment, the problems are accelerating.
> 
> That’s the situation. Again, I’m not familiar with plaster, painted/plaster substrates and want some feedback. Based on what I’ve written, would you say that this skim coating was unprofessionally and/or incompetently done? The contractor had returned once to patch a few areas, but each week more and more cracks appear and he does not want to redo the job. In my opinion the place is a ticking time bomb for this skim coat to crack and delaminate, and I dread having to vacate those rooms again and deal with the workers and dust on a redo.


 I got some advice for you.....save yourself the headaches
HIRE A PROFESSIONAL, bill your landlord. It obvious you don't have a clue.


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## Lovegasoline

Big thanks to all for the replies.

Fenez: 
You are correct it's not traditional 'plastering' by any means but rather a hybrid fix with different materials. 

joepro0000:
Can you please elaborate (btw, this is for walls and ceilings)? You're saying that after scraping they should have applied primer over the substrate before applying the JC? An alkyd base primer? This_ in addition _to, or in substitution of, a bonding agent? I know there's different schools of thought on this. 

Btw, I failed to mention that cracks generally _were_ treated with mesh tape, however, cracks were not grooved out before applying the tape, nor were deep cracks addressed by an 'inverted 'V' groove' down to the wood lathe to provide a key-lock for the patch material. However, most of the cracking appears to be surface cracks to the skim coat and not from deeper structural cracks in the plaster substrate, except for a few limited exceptions. The contractor said he was going to spread mesh sheet across the entire ceiling (he didn't use _any_). 

d-rock:
You are jumping into the breech: I'm clued in, please read below.


I wanted some confirmation and consensus, or corrections to my suspicions regarding proper procedures. 
There have already been a few lawsuits regarding repairs to my apartment (but not this skim coat fiasco) including NYC suing my landlord with contempt charges. These lawsuits resulted in forcing the landlord to undertake the construction/repair work in the first place (serious structural issues involving failed joists _completely_ severed by water leaks and a ceiling collapse). 
Unfortunately, I do NOT have the right to bring in my own workers...at least not at this stage. That would make me vulnerable to liability and charges of obstruction of court orders or denial of access (the lawyers would twist it into that). FYI, I've already been sued in Supreme Court, frivolously by this (crook) landlord for false charges of obstructing access and $125,000 damages, he lost that case, and he lost three other lawsuits directly related to these issues. 
Hiring my own contractors or doing it myself is not a legal option in this situation, at least not at this stage. What I can do, is demand the work be corrected. If the landlord refuses, I can sue him to make repairs to the cracked walls and bring evidence of the failing skim coat and also introduce professionals as witnesses to testify that the skim coat was incompetently performed using unorthodox and inadequate procedures, and that the trade that has a long history of proven methods that work, and _there are other methods that do not work, are considered unprofessional, inadequate, and incompetent._

I know there's more than one way to skin a cat and skim coat a wall. Before I proceed, I want to be certain that the methods his contractor used are _universally disdained by professionals in the trade_...rather than discovering that his methods are commonly employed by professionals and with successful results. So please, anyone reading with a professional background in this area, please reply with your profession opinion, it's greatly appreciated. 

My landlord is a disbarred attorney. He's cheap, dishonest, deceptive, smart, and fails to assume responsibility always preferring instead to litigate. In NYC with the rental market so expensive and rent regulation, this sort of character is a common occurrence. 

What is painful is to see a beautiful place abused by chumps who do not take pride in their trade or their craftsmanship. Even more, I would have loved to see a traditional three stage plaster repair. Seems tradesmen specializing in the latter are a dying breed these days. 

Thanks again guys.


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## Lovegasoline

*After scraping and revealing various layers of paint, is it best to apply a primer over this substrate before applying the JC? *If yes, what's recommended: alkyd base primer or something like Zinsser 123? Or, should the bonding agent (like Plaster Weld) be painted on the wall instead of a primer? Or is it best to use both: a coat of primer followed by a thin coat of bonding agent? I know there's different schools of thought on this. What have you guys used with success?

They may be coming in shortly to redo this and I'd like to pass on the best info I can to assure a successful job rather than just trying to conceal the problems. 

Thanks a bunch.


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## Quality1st

*Okay*

Scrape off and out everything that is loose . V out all the cracks, use a bonding agent now for adhesion. Fill V,s with Eay-sand 90 and immeadiately tape with mesh. First coat with Easysand 90 and all other coats with a topping mud. Sand and prime. Wa La"


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## joepro0000

The main purpose of primer is for paint to stick to the wall. If you paint directly without primer on drywall, the paint will eventually fall off. Same thing would apply if your talking about a bunch of patch work on an already painted surface that been painted years ago. I would use Kilz - latex (Kilz 2) alot of painting stores say its the best primer, but really an over-kill. However its the same cost of a SW or BM primer, just about. A bonding agent would only need to be applied if using a 1-coat stucco or plaster. But your talking about durabond and veneer finish, which is pretty weird. I would of used durabond with reg. J.compond instead. Has never failed us.


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## grapita

*Some important things: (Using always the correct materials, giving always the right time )*

* The first one, is scrape off everything until nothing absolutly nothing is loose on the walls. Second , make sure you use mesh tape in every single crack, third one , very important " when doing the first coat use easy sanding or durabond,and of course do not forget that depending on how big is the job you will chosse wich to use 45 minutes, or 90 minutes,after your first coat is dry give another coat and depending of how it looks after sanding, you as a painter will know what to do. Good luck !*


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## joepro0000

Bingo!

They


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## Lovegasoline

Thanks for the replies.

Of course, I know that a setting type compound is much much better for this application (as it has an integral bonding agent mixed in and less shrinkage than JC); but there are those out there that skim coat with pre-mix JC and this contractor likes to use green label JC with some plaster of paris mixed in (you can lead a horse to water...). That's why I ask about the bonding agent. 

From my limited experience, when using Durabond/Easysand then one doesn't need to use a bonding agent because they are formulated with a bonding agent mixed in, that's one quality that sets them apart from products like traditional plaster. 

But when using the JC + plaster method, how best to prep the surface after scraping the loose stuff off? I ask about primer (not for use under the top coat of paint as that goes without saying, _but under the skim coat_) because I recall being told at one time that a good primer can perform like a bonding agent to better allow JC to stick to the various paint layers on a freshly scraped wall. 

One other point: the contractor mentioned that the JC skim coat reacts with the underlying old paint layers (and plaster) and there is a moisture transfer that takes place and that can cause the cracking and failure of the new skimcoat. If this is the case, how is this prevented?


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## [email protected]

Don't mix plaster with regular compound, ever. Some here will tell you they do it and it works for them. Fine and good, but it voids whatever warranty the JC maker offers. Says it right on the bucket/ box. Ask yourself, would you put any amount of deisel in your unleaded vehicle? And then tell your mechanic, "well some guy told he does it all the time and never has a problem". Call or email USG and see what they say about field experiments like this.


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## Lovegasoline

Thanks again for all the informative replies.

[email protected]: 
You are absolutely correct and the mixing of plaster into the joint compound sent off alarms in my head. It _is_ nothing more than a field experiment and thanks for pointing out that it voids the JC makers warranty. Clearly an unprofessional technique.


Do you or anyone else know if there is a* technical term* common in the trade which describes the condition when the skim coat separates from the substrate? This appears to be the symptom of most of the failing skim coat here: it's where cracks have not yet formed but the thin skim layer is pulling away from the substrate and I can feel (and hear when tapping with my fingers) that it's hollow behind the skim coat. In some larger pancake size areas I can actually push the skim coat in about 1/16" -1/8" and it pops back out, there's a shallow air pocket behind it where it's lost its bond to the substrate....but no visible cracks. If I just run my fingernail against the wall I can hear the differences where the skim coat has lost its bond.

???


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## [email protected]

Bond failure or delamination would be my name for it. But stupidity, laziness, ignorance, mental retardation also come to mind.


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## d-rock

Darren,
I respectfully disagree about mixing plaster with compound. Using a base of plasterweld, it's worked brilliantly for me in skim coating and patch applications.


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## MeatBallDryWall

> but stupidity, laziness, ignorance, mental retardation also come to mind.


lmao


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## joepro0000

Like I said in the past, sand JC compound off the wall, scoup up the dust, add water to the dust, and you got durabond, except its just missing the chemical to speed up the drying. Same thing. Between me and my finishers, we have over 20 years mixing durabond and jc and never had 1 problem. I don't think its an experiment, its a pro's trick.


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## miket

joepro0000 said:


> If you paint directly without primer on drywall, the paint will eventually fall off.


 ...?


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## Lovegasoline

UPDATE:

Contractor returned today and is attempting to repair the failed skim coat. 

Workers scraped off the loose, de-bonded plaster/skim coat. In many areas they scraped off all the plaster down to what looks like the basecoat (rough grainy texture, darker grey color) as in these areas all the plaster (not merely the skim coat) was poorly bonded. Other areas, they scraped only superficially, removing the loose skim coat. In yet other areas the skim coat is intact and they are leaving it as is

They painted over the newly scraped areas with Plaster Weld. When that dried, they used Durabond and mesh sheet to patch all the scraped areas. [Edit: I wasn't at watching when work began: the contractor informed me he was using Structo-Lite...however, he looks like he changed his mind and used Durabond]. 

In another 'virgin' room, which has yet to receive skim coat of any type, they are applying Durabond directly to old painted walls that haven't been cleaned, dusted, or repainted in about 20 years. I'm little concerned that they didn't prep or even clean the walls first. Also, they are putting the Durabond on sorta heavy on the old painted wall areas where no scraping has taken place....these walls have lots of panel molding and picture molding. They intend to top the Durabond with Easysand. I'm concerned that with the difficulty of sanding the Durabond along with the thickness of application, that to get a flat plane the molding will be half buried/sunk in compound. On these areas, I'm wondering if they would do better to vacuum the wall and clean with TSP to prep and then just use a thin layer of Easysand?

For now it's wait and see how day two goes.


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## trudy

*related question*

Excuse me for piggybacking on your question.

I've moved into an old family home with what seems to be plaster(?) ceilings with a somewhat rough texture. Like sand was mixed into it and then it was applied in swirls.

I used to live in a house with real plaster ceilings with a flat surface, and would like to get that look here. I do all my home stuff myself, money being an object. I have never done plastering or drywall. The ceilings here are already quite low, so I don't want to layer something over them. From what I've read, real plastering and drywall compound require a lot of very messy sanding.

Some months ago I used spackle to fill in a hole where a plant hanger was removed from a ceiling here. 2-3 coats and it is now a flat surface with no cracking, about two square inches. In my old house some PO had put fake brick paneling on the bathroom (not near moisture) walls and it was under many coats of paint. I spackled over the indentations, got a flat surface, painted it, and it was fine years later.

You can see where this is going - can I spackle over the ceilings? Use TSP first? I found the spackle brand sold by the gallon on the web. I'm sure this has people clutching their heads  Thanks.


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## Tim0282

You could buy drywall mud in a five gallon bucket and do the same. Or buy fast set mud in a bag. The sand finish swirl texture is real plaster. Just has silica sand in it for the look they were trying to achieve. The era it was popular.


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## trudy

Thanks, Tim. My impression is that drywall mud always has to be sanded? The sanding is what I was trying to avoid, because I gather it goes everywhere.


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## carpentaper

not to be an arse but......you are going to be doing a lot of sanding. seriously though, i don't know what people are so afraid of about a little dust. its nothing a shopvac can't take care off. you will have to remove everything from the room anyway and you should throw dropcloths or paper down to catch drips. poly off the doorways and your set. if you don't suck at skim coating it is possible to minimize dust but you can't avoid it using drywall compounds. if you are really brave you will skim your ceiling in plaster and then burnish instead of sanding. i'm not that brave though. good luck.


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## trudy

It's the homeowner, in particular Mrs. Homeowner, who has to clean up the dust, which gets into everything for rooms around, every tiny crevice from what I hear from multiple sources, requiring washing bedding, clothes, dusting every object, despite masking off the doorways. Not the guy who waves his shop vac around and says good enough and leaves 

I seriously wonder if construction folk realize how many more jobs they'd get if they left a clean work site at the end.

Thanks for the input.


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## silverstilts

When ever you do any Patch & Match no matter how clean you are there is going to be some dust. Unless you wet sand which is not recommended unless it is a very small area or patch. People have great expectations as to how clean a job SHOULD BE, there is however a limit, If you expect the job to be spotless with so much as not a speck of dust to float onto something then you are living in a dream world. I suppose you could have an air filtration unit set up if you wanted to spend a lot of extra cash or If you are concerned about having a spotless home after this type of project maybe you should hire a professional cleaning service when completed. You can't make & bake bread without getting a little of the flour on the counter tops. It is just one of those things.


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## miket

Im a painter and nearly every job has cleaning. In residences i do a quick clean up at the end of every day, vacuum and sweep dust in the work area and between the work area and the front door, put everything away. Most good contractors do. I never end a job with crazy amount of compoound or construction dust left behind. Sometimes i clean once,the majority of the dust, leaving it almost clean or a little bit dirty, how the average house gets between cleanings, sometimes i clean two or three times till its totally spotless, depending on how much im gettting paid for the job and what the level of expectations are. Since i have to clean it i do create less i think. For sanding large skiim coats i use a vacuum sander that captures 90% of the dust and i plastic off doorways to contain the dust to the rooms im working in if im creating enough dust to travel around.


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## FOR THOSE ABOUT

trudy said:


> It's the homeowner, in particular Mrs. Homeowner, who has to clean up the dust, which gets into everything for rooms around, every tiny crevice from what I hear from multiple sources, requiring washing bedding, clothes, dusting every object, despite masking off the doorways. Not the guy who waves his shop vac around and says good enough and leaves
> 
> I seriously wonder if construction folk realize how many more jobs they'd get if they left a clean work site at the end.
> 
> Thanks for the input.


Mrs. H/O ought to hire a professional service at the end if she is that critical. I did a job for a very critical woman, we had zipper doors and handmasker and tarps and dustless sanders...you name it, regardless of the precaustions which we took there were still areas where the dust gravitated. She scheduled for a cleaner upon our completion. People who have experience understand.

I think if you take yourself to a DIY site as opposed to lurking on a professional site for free advice you might find more sympathy.


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## carpentaper

I think if you take yourself to a DIY site as opposed to lurking on a professional site for free advice you might find more sympathy.[/quote]

what he said!!:thumbup:
but seriously. dust is just f**cking dust. is there dust on your furniture right now if you don't dust for a week? then after i do an immaculate job for someone with exceptional cleanup and protection one week goes by and there is a little dust on the counter all of a sudden we know who is to blame. it's true there are some donkeys who will do a sh!!ty job keeping a place clean. i also don't think most HO's have the experience to protect the jobsite properly thus adding to the dust paranoia people have


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## DSJOHN

Gentlemen,the only 100% fix in this situation is NU_WALL I,ve used this product for about 18 years and your building is exactly what it was invented for, Spech-Chem.com Find some one in your area familiar with it and get a price before you waste time and money again. DSJOHN


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## Axecutioner-B

Am i crazy for thinking putting new drywall over the cracked plaster ceiling is the best fix ?
________
Vanesshot


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## royalmayur

*water damage repair*

HI 

i do agree with Miket....it would not adhere if you direct paint ...

thanks
water damage repair


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## Mjaw

Ok i realize this post is old and few will read this. 1st i would scrape all loose areas and shelac them then id shelac everything that was going to get touched with compound. Do lots of work in 100 125 year olds homes.


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