# Other probems with subs



## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

I am sure every one here has many stories on problems with other subs one that comes to mind for me is a tile sub he always managed to start hauling in all his crap before we were done with the spraying and sanding ... It just got to the point after I asked numerous times to not do it but give us our time to finish and clean up that he persisted to get in our way even starting to tile areas where we were to finish walls and ceilings ... to make a long story short I refused to mask or cover any of his tools or materials , after 2 jobs and a really pissed off tile guy we didn't have any more problems ,,, or what about the painter that moves in and the contractor moves all his trim and doors into the garage or wherever so they can be finished and ready to go , I just want to spray everything ...... I have even gone as far as when spraying texture don't care who walks in to watch I just keep on spraying and well if they get in my way too bad....:whistling2: don't take to long before they move on and out of the way...


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## Al Taper (Dec 16, 2007)

Iam haveing a problem with my rocker. He does great work and his prices are great. But he is just unreliable. Cant reach him on the phone. Have a job for him and he is a no show then blames it on his help. Gave him three days to do a 25 board job. Then when I gave it to someone else. He was piss. Calls me looking for money right before he puts in the last screw in. My deal with him is when I tape it out I get my drop. So I will meet him n pay him that day or the next day. Or now his new thing is, I need money to start. And its not going to fly.:furious:Blame it on gas money.. 

For someone with 5 kids he should be busting his ass..


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## [email protected]Partners (Dec 23, 2008)

Give him $50 for gas but tell him it'll cost him $100 at the end. "Do I look like a bank?"

Silver, we always spray all tourists if they come in when we are texturing.

Those subs coming in early, I try to head it off with the super but some are hard-headed. Usually a "spill" or two of hot mud on their toys usually does it.


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## rckslash2010 (Mar 15, 2009)

It's no different then having boxes of mud in the way when we start hanging. I've never complained, just got the work done.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

I think that sometime I am guilty of stocking a home when the rockers are there but I always make sure to put my stuff somewhere out of the way or some area that has already been finished , I always ask before if it is ok if not I will come back , It is out of respect of not stepping on another's toes and getting in the way.. nothing like dragging cords around a bunch of crap that should not be in your way.. the worst for me is when we do supply rock and the contractor insists on us stocking the job before it is ready no insulation electrical / plumbing /heating what ever may not be done , I usually try to do what I can to prolong the delivery keeping piles of rock out of every one's way .. common courtesy talk with the contractor to light a fire under another subs azz usually helps .


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Still stock my mud with my board to avoid the fuel surcharge of $17.50 - $25. placed in the kitchen in the center, always just worked over it.


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## aschnit (Jul 8, 2009)

stocking mud with board seems silly in most cases... especially in the winter where i live. I guess that brings up the question of heating... how do most of you guys heat your work areas in the winter? or do you leave that up to the GC?


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## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

Just completed a small office suite. The electrician stocked his light fixtures and left his spools,boxes and fittings laying all over. So I asked him to put them in one of the adjacent unfinished suites until we were done. He gave me the jibber jabber. I told him I wouldn't stick it to him.

He said: " You can't stick it to me". I said yep your right. Then proceeded to put a small rock in his conduit stub.

Somebody call Silvers "Wambulance" and take me to the store and get some whine for my cheese.


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## miket (Jan 29, 2010)

I rememer a similar controntation between some painters and electricians.

Painter: We have to spray this room we drove all the way here, if you stay in here you and your tools are going to get covered in paint...

Electrician: Well, you wont be able to spray without electricity...(threatening to cut it off)


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Al Taper said:


> Iam haveing a problem with my rocker. He does great work and his prices are great. But he is just unreliable. Cant reach him on the phone. Have a job for him and he is a no show then blames it on his help. Gave him three days to do a 25 board job. Then when I gave it to someone else. He was piss. Calls me looking for money right before he puts in the last screw in. My deal with him is when I tape it out I get my drop. So I will meet him n pay him that day or the next day. Or now his new thing is, I need money to start. And its not going to fly.:furious:Blame it on gas money..
> 
> For someone with 5 kids he should be busting his ass..


If you're running a drywall company, no offense, but you do not have 'subs' that do your work. He's your f--king employee for crying out loud. He works for you period, and has to abide by how YOU want things done, as well as abiding by company policy on WHEN he gets paid.

Again, not sure of your exact situation, so please don't take this the wrong way.

I've had hangers give me attitudes like this before -- all that tells me is that they aren't going to be working for me anymore, that's utter bullsh-t.

he works for YOU, not the other way around. If he doesn't show up on time, get another hanger, period. If he expects to be paid after the last screw is put in, I say go to another company or wait until Friday like all my other employees.

I don't stand for prima donna employees.

And another thing...."his prices are great"............wtf?? He should be hanging for whatever price YOU give to him. Again, I feel i have to be wrong and im not understanding your situation.

Are you a general hiring hangers? Cause this is one thing.....

but if you are a drywall contractor with a company, everything I said above stands.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

silverstilts said:


> I think that sometime I am guilty of stocking a home when the rockers are there but I always make sure to put my stuff somewhere out of the way or some area that has already been finished , I always ask before if it is ok if not I will come back , It is out of respect of not stepping on another's toes and getting in the way.. nothing like dragging cords around a bunch of crap that should not be in your way.. the worst for me is when we do supply rock and the contractor insists on us stocking the job before it is ready no insulation electrical / plumbing /heating what ever may not be done , I usually try to do what I can to prolong the delivery keeping piles of rock out of every one's way .. common courtesy talk with the contractor to light a fire under another subs azz usually helps .


I don't stock a house until the roof is on and the lath is wrapped, period.

Builders don't expect me too either -- its common sense.

If a builder or whoever is asking u to do this, they don't no sh-t.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Still stock my mud with my board to avoid the fuel surcharge of $17.50 - $25. placed in the kitchen in the center, always just worked over it.


I never stock mud in a house via my suppliers. My finishers always drive to my shop and load it in the back of their trucks, hauling it on their own to the jobsite.

It helps me keep track of materials also. They only bring enough mud for what they are going to do for that day.

If anything, my suppliers stock mud in my warehouse because I'll be buying 5-6 pallets at a time....and they don't charge for delivery to my shop, just merchandise only.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

aschnit said:


> stocking mud with board seems silly in most cases... especially in the winter where i live. I guess that brings up the question of heating... how do most of you guys heat your work areas in the winter? or do you leave that up to the GC?


One of my production builders that we've worked for for over 25 years now knows the routine. They have their own guys heat the house themselves, for free (to me) -- and only go when i tell them.

If I tell them I want a guy heating the house for an entire week, they'll have a guy with a heater in the house for 6+ hrs a day, 5 days a week....even on weekends if it requires.

they've never squabbled about it because they understand it is necessary for me. I know its rare to have a good relationship like this with a GC, but i am very thankful for it.


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## rockdaddy (Jul 2, 2009)

I used to supply heaters and have the builders supply propane but now, I make it entirelyy the builders cost and responsibility. Let them assume the liability and pay for the insurance and do all the physical work. Better yet when you find the guy who wants the house heat on before you hang. God bless that guy. A person with a brain...
On a side note to Custom, if a guy pays for his own liability and workers comp, and pays for his own vehicle and gas, and is issued a 1099 he IS a SUB CONTRACTOR.
He is also free to work for whomever he wants, as is his right and responsibility, and we are free to keep using his services or use anothers. He is responsible for his duties to uncle sam and therefore his own enterprise. That being said, I know where you are coming from. I have guys that have been with me for 20 years as well. I've been to thier homes and broken bread with them and ther families in their kitchens. I've worked side by side with them and consider each and every mouth at thier tables as a responsibility that I have some part in fulfilling and do consider many of my subs as " MY PEOPLE ".
Have to be careful with the symantics lest uncle sam come looking with his magnifying glass.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

rockdaddy said:


> I used to supply heaters and have the builders supply propane but now, I make it entirelyy the builders cost and responsibility. Let them assume the liability and pay for the insurance and do all the physical work. Better yet when you find the guy who wants the house heat on before you hang. God bless that guy. A person with a brain...
> On a side note to Custom, if a guy pays for his own liability and workers comp, and pays for his own vehicle and gas, and is issued a 1099 he IS a SUB CONTRACTOR.
> He is also free to work for whomever he wants, as is his right and responsibility, and we are free to keep using his services or use anothers. He is responsible for his duties to uncle sam and therefore his own enterprise. That being said, I know where you are coming from. I have guys that have been with me for 20 years as well. I've been to thier homes and broken bread with them and ther families in their kitchens. I've worked side by side with them and consider each and every mouth at thier tables as a responsibility that I have some part in fulfilling and do consider many of my subs as " MY PEOPLE ".
> Have to be careful with the symantics lest uncle sam come looking with his magnifying glass.


Hear that loud and clear for sure rockdaddy.....

If you mention "1099"...say no more then, hahaha....then yes, they are technically subs. I have heard owners refer to their own crews as subs before though, even though they are literally employees -- and this riles me to no end. Especially a dear friend of mind who had a drywall company (keyword: "HAD").......he was just a bad business man, honestly....got taken advantage of by his own employees to no end, hence his idiotic mindset that his employees were 'subs.' He was just a huge pus-y, ill be blunt. Sadly hes out of business now because his employees started 'charging him too much to hang and finish'


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

hey Custom, 

Don't you think its better to have mud stocked at the job with the board, so you send what you need, plus 1 or 2 more for touch ups/punch-out. If guys take the mud in their trucks everyday, how do you know if they take 1 home too for sidejobs or return/credit?


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

joepro0000 said:


> hey Custom,
> 
> Don't you think its better to have mud stocked at the job with the board, so you send what you need, plus 1 or 2 more for touch ups/punch-out. If guys take the mud in their trucks everyday, how do you know if they take 1 home too for sidejobs or return/credit?



Great point Joe, and the honest answer is that you CAN'T 100% know.

A main account of mine is a production builder. The plans vary slightly, and we've been doing these homes for about 20+ years now -- at least for THESE jobs, I know the amount of mud they will require down to a 1/2 box...down to a science pretty much. So for these, I'm not worried...we give them exactly how much it will take for each phase of finishing, and no more.

Plus, my finishers are told to leave the boxes of mud on the jobsite, if any leftover -- which may be 1 - 2 boxes. The only thing you can do to stop this, besides keeping a detailed inventory system (impossible), is to just make it loud and clear to your employees the ramifications and consequences of using your mud for their own side jobs. I've easily fired numerous employees in the past for doing this, and made examples out of them. It's safe to say that my employees are too scared to use mud for sidejobs, honestly.

As sneaky as I am, I have a reputation at my business to be as thorough and paranoid as to visit their houses on the weekend to snoop around, usually surprising them. there's been just one time where I actually caught an employee 'red handed.'

Also, every now and then, i'll purposefully give finishers extra mud than they need, for the main purpose of testing their honesty. 100% of the time, they've either left the extra mud on the jobsite, as they've been instructed......or simply bring it back to me themselves.

Again, you can't avoid this 100% -- it's impossible unless you hand number each and every box of mud, which is ridiculous.

All you can do is portray to your employees that there is ZERO tolerance regarding this.

Plus, as much as we check / supervise our own jobs -- my finishers know better.

For example, If i'm not showing up on a job, my supervisor is. And it's made obvious that before we LEAVE a jobsite, we count the boxes of mud in the trash, as well as count the unopened boxes inside the house. I make SURE my finishers / employees physically SEE me counting and being meticulous.

To top it off, I have a 'material count' sheet for every single job. My finishers list the amount of mud they use for every single job, then sign the bottom where it clearly states that 'I, the undersigned have filled out my material count for this job to the best of my ability. If found to be otherwise, I am full aware that my employer, Custom Drywall Service, has the full right to either adjust discrepancies on future pay, or terminate my employment all together"

I'm a tyrant when it comes to material counting, and my employees know this -- so bottomline, theyre simply too scared to steal from me.


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

ok good thing, I already figured out how to steal mud from you thou. I just bring me some old compound buckets, pour in all the box mud I want in them, and throw out the box so you can count it later. lol - j/k


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## miket (Jan 29, 2010)

What do you do with the empty boxes after you count them? Someone could get them out of the trash bring them back to the job and switch them for a full box, or they could get empty mud boxes from a competitor to switch. Or a guy can bring a few empty boxes of his own, switch them for full boxes, uses the mud on his own job then bring the now empty stolen boxes back again to switch for full ones...


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

miket said:


> What do you do with the empty boxes after you count them? Someone could get them out of the trash bring them back to the job and switch them for a full box, or they could get empty mud boxes from a competitor to switch. Or a guy can bring a few empty boxes of his own, switch them for full boxes, uses the mud on his own job then bring the now empty stolen boxes back again to switch for full ones...


Listen.....

It's not THAT big of a problem for me guys, hahaha.

I trust my guys, especially my finishers, let's put it that way. I've 'snuck' on em and creeped around them enough to keep them honest. And like I said, my material count form is also key. i KNOW HOW MUCH MUD a typical job will need, and I always cross check their actual figures with my estimates. And believe me, when a finisher reports using more mud than I think he should, I question and interrogate him to no end.

Guys, owning a drywall business (im sure you'll agree) is essentially BABY-SITTING.....that's all it is.

My day constantly consists of me babysitting my guys every single half hour to an hour basically. As a lot of us know, employees are just like little kids that you constantly have to check up on in order to make the deadlines, etc that I am expected to meet -- it's just a part of business. When something goes wrong, the customer doesn't blame the employee, but they'll blame me....part of the game.

On that note, material theft, specifically mud, is not an issue at my business as they know I watch em like a hawk.


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## wnybassman (May 9, 2008)

Custom Drywall Svc. said:


> Listen.....
> I trust my guys, especially my finishers...........................................My day constantly consists of me babysitting my guys every single half hour to an hour basically..


Hard to believe that was all said in the same post. LOL! Just pickin'


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

wnybassman said:


> Hard to believe that was all said in the same post. LOL! Just pickin'



Hahahah....well...cmon, you know what I mean.

Genuinely, i 'trust' my guys as far as their hearts.....

But when I mean 'babysitting', you know how it goes guys....employees telling you for example "yea boss the job will be done by today"

...this is whats in their HEARTS at least. But physically, they may not be capable.......this is what i'm talking about, more or less when I say 'baby sitting.'

I just have to constantly keep up on them and push them -- that's all i mean.


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## evolve991 (Jan 24, 2008)

Most of my work in the past few years has been subbed from bigger outfits. I answer the damn phone when they call,don't bullsh*t about when I can start and if there is a holdup I let them know...whether its on MY end or more change orders/incompletes on the GCs end. 
Almost all our jobs are stocked with mud and rock at the same time. Almost all of them expect us to point our heaters( thats OUR heaters and OUR fuel) at the mud to thaw it out every day.....ummmm No.....and act dumb when I mention that it freezes at night,every night. 
We try to work along with other subs when they start getting in the way but if they aren't at least considerate things can get....interesting....and they tend to back off after we've caused them to start yanking thier hair out in hunks. Ve haf vays uf dealink viss zem!!!
Sometimes we have to move a house worth of siding out of the garage. Note I said Out. The siders don't have to move our stacks....catch my drift?
We do try to get along with everyone but that doesn't mean we're gullible or that we don't have mean streaks a mile wide...that goes for everyone from the HO to the GC to whoever is cutting our check and every sub on the job. When all is said and done we ARE hangers after all.....:yes:


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## aschnit (Jul 8, 2009)

the only time i ever came remotely close to having a physical altercation (besides the few times with my guys, i work with family) on a job site was with a tile guy. Still hanging the rock in the Chili's they built here where i live... and this AHole starts stocking his tile not more than 2 feet in front of our pile. I give him the stink eye for a second until he continues doing so and realize thats his final intention with all that tile. I finally say "are you ****ing serious?" and as a result and as you can imagine a pretty intense conversation ensues. We eventually get it all under control, he moves his tile, and all resumes as if nothing even happened. Could have been pretty ugly though. Rushed commercial projects with a GC/Owner that obviously has no clue are my favorites.


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## evolve991 (Jan 24, 2008)

LOL you sound alot like us Aschnit. We don't get in fistfights,usually,but you'd be surprised what some LOUD Nine Inch Nails or Alice in Chains plus us deliberately making the router squeal on vents can do to another subs head LOL Meeting them at every turn with a full sheet has a good effect too.


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