# Level 4 vs Level 5 Finish



## isildur21367

Hi all. New to forums. I'm building a new high-end home (3800 sq ft) in SF and wondering if I should go with Level-4 finish vs. Level-5. Its an additional $2,500 cost to do it. Is it worth it? Can I really tell the difference?

Thanks.


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## M T Buckets Painting

If it is within your budget go ahead and get the level 5. It tremendously helps in any high lighted areas, such as rooms with alot of windows or very large ceilings. If you are planning on having any wall finishes that have any sheen at all it will be money well spent.

Hire a local professional to do the work to ensure everything comes out good. I'm sure that someone on the forum who is located in your area would be able to do the work for you or suggest someone else who can.

Remember, you get what you pay for!:yes:


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## gotmud

I would say more but m.t. buckets said it best! He is right on the money. Just remember 80% of the viewable surface in your home is drywall :thumbup:


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## chris

when they say an xtra 2500.00 does that include a first coat [a primer specifically designed for level 5]to ensure a flat consistent sheen?


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## Cratter

chris said:


> when they say an xtra 2500.00 does that include a first coat [a primer specifically designed for level 5]to ensure a flat consistent sheen?


Doesn't that have to do more with painting? 

Isn't Level 5 skimming out the entire wall with compound?


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## M T Buckets Painting

There are some high build primers out on the market that achieve top notch level 5 finishes. The ones that I am familiar with are sprayed on and not back rolled. The mfg's suggest to spray in on direction then let it tack off then spray the other direction. What is called the cross hatch method in my neck of the woods. The end result is about 8 or 10 mil thick. If you back roll this, you have the surface of a bastard file.


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## Cratter

M T Buckets Painting said:


> There are some high build primers out on the market that achieve top notch level 5 finishes. The ones that I am familiar with are sprayed on and not back rolled. The mfg's suggest to spray in on direction then let it tack off then spray the other direction. What is called the cross hatch method in my neck of the woods. The end result is about 8 or 10 mil thick. If you back roll this, you have the surface of a bastard file.


If you ask me, that's a gimmick used to sell more paint and not a true level five finish.


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## raven

Builders solution on smooth walls and promar 400 on texture.


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## boco

I do a ton of level 5 finish jobs. i dont recomend a high build primer instead of level 5.. Its just not the same thing. Level 5 should be free of any imperfections then entire surface skim coated. The reason is to have the drywall board paper match with the applied joint compound covering joints butts screws etc... (Joint banding). Sherwin williams prep rite 200 is what I use but any top brand primer will do just fine. I highly recommend spray and backrolling. Backrolling is the only wat to get adhesion to guarentee a proper finish.


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## M T Buckets Painting

Cratter said:


> If you ask me, that's a gimmick used to sell more paint and not a true level five finish.


I have found that cross hatching gives a thourough coat. I have also through time found that if I overlap my spray fan 50%, I can achieve the same results quicker. I have had a few contractors see me doing this and stop me to ask me whf am I doing. I am able to do it without cross hatching but, others may have spray laps flashing through where it is heavier in one spot and lighter in another. Basically an experienced sprayer doesn't need to cross hatch. 

Any dust on the seams will also affect the finished product. I use one of those Wooster triangle dust mops to remove the dust. If you don't dust the walls, all of the seams will be a little rough and require a light sanding. The high build primers don't sand off. When dry, you can't dent the finish with your fingernail. Man O' Man do the walls turn out slick and smooth when done.:yes:


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## Cratter

M T Buckets Painting said:


> I have found that cross hatching gives a thourough coat. I have also through time found that if I overlap my spray fan 50%, I can achieve the same results quicker. I have had a few contractors see me doing this and stop me to ask me whf am I doing.


I was going to say doesn't ever painter overlap their spray patterns?  Also it seems mandatory to use a new(er) spray tip so you don't leave tails. 

We actually just sprayed Builders Solution on a nice smooth wall house today to achieve a level 5 finish. I guess it all depends how thick you put it on. More the better I guess.

There is already a thread on DT talking about spraying mud on for a level five. Wouldn't that be the way to go since there still would be no sanding and a five gallon buckets would be a lot cheaper? $8 compound filled with water for five gallons? Or over $50 for a five of paint? And you don't have to dust the wall before you spray the all purpose?


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## smisner50s

Cratter said:


> I was going to say doesn't ever painter overlap their spray patterns?  Also it seems mandatory to use a new(er) spray tip so you don't leave tails.
> 
> We actually just sprayed Builders Solution on a nice smooth wall house today to achieve a level 5 finish. I guess it all depends how thick you put it on. More the better I guess.
> 
> There is already a thread on DT talking about spraying mud on for a level five. Wouldn't that be the way to go since there still would be no sanding and a five gallon buckets would be a lot cheaper? $8 compound filled with water for five gallons? Or over $50 for a five of paint?


 i just sprayed 100 gallons of builders solution.yesterday at my site..with my new mark 4..used 621 tip 50 percent overlap 2600psi..beautiful finish verry happy ...today 220 sanded it all than two coats of builders solution topcoat.


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## M T Buckets Painting

Mud is fine if you have a Mark V sprayer. I have done the method of rolling it on with a 1" nap roller and another guy wiping it down. Both of these methods require a light sanding. I guarantee that I can spray high build level 5 primer quicker than both of these methods. And If no dust on my walls, absolutely no sanding. 

I guess the method that I like the best is the high build primer. It is alot easier on me.


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## boco

Does the high build you use take care of the joint banding issues with semi gloss paint? Thats the problem I had with the builders solutions. Its is a decent product , but when doing high end stuff I like a level 5 finish over HB. When paying for a level 5 finish the customers usually want perfection. Thats what I give them. Anyways try this. Level 5 a wall then high build another. Then shine a 300W light directly against wall after 1st coat of finish Paint is applied. After this test let me know which one you prefer. Paint suppliers can claim level 5 finish paint all the want . Its just doesnt compare.


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## M T Buckets Painting

Boco, I have had absolutely no problems with the Benjamin-Moore product. I can't remember the exact name of it right now. Sherwin- Williams has a similar material that I am not as happy with.

When I do stripes in a room I always insist on Ben Moore high build for a level 5. In my opinion it gives the slickest finish. Stripes come out the best on an extremely slick surface. I have worked with guys that couldn't keep a 1/2" knap from sliding on this product while back rolling finish coat.


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## chris

Why is there a level 4?? Had to do a couple a few yrs back and now I refuse. They want smoothe wall:yes::yes:but dont want to PAY.:whistling2:level 4 is for retail space not rented out yet.Go with level 5 but make sure that includes a spray finish level5.I would wait till finish coat of paint to do any backroll .If they offer a skim coat level 5 make sure to use a better quality primer[not cheapstuff].The reason you want a tightroll or backroll is if any touchups are needed you can use a lil roller and it wont show as bad.Hope that helps your decision making


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## raven

Thanks for the back up Smisner.


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## boco

raven said:


> Builders solution on smooth walls and promar 400 on texture.


 promar 400 sucks. Why put a low grade finish paint on high quality tape job? Super paint is a much superior product. Cashmere for darker colors.


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## Cratter

Here's out dillema. Smooth walls nice house. We prefilled, taped, and two coats of mud. (is that a level 3 or 4?) Sanded all smooth. Sprayed the Builders Solution (to try and achieve a level 5 finish), but when we hold our 500W Halogen lights directly shining down the walls we can see all the flats! 

Now it just might be that you won't be able to see them cause 500W directly against the wall is overkill but who wants to take that chance?


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## 800PoundGuerrilla

*Never-Miss*

Do any of you have any experience adding Never-Miss to the compound when spraying a Level 5 Finish?


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## chris

Cratter said:


> Here's out dillema. Smooth walls nice house. We prefilled, taped, and two coats of mud. (is that a level 3 or 4?) Sanded all smooth. Sprayed the Builders Solution (to try and achieve a level 5 finish), but when we hold our 500W Halogen lights directly shining down the walls we can see all the flats!
> 
> Now it just might be that you won't be able to see them cause 500W directly against the wall is overkill but who wants to take that chance?


 Im assuming you handcoated everything when you say tape plus 2 coats. You either humped your flats or did not fill enough .When we have done level 4 {not many} we end up 3 coating everything with boxes and also atoouch up.we only prefill damaged areas or real bad butts.There is a real fine line between 4 and 5 when quality of finish is concerned. We have never skimmed entire wall to achieve level 5.It really helps to do a wet spong after final sand . alot more work but well worth it.Just lightly on all edges where mud meets paper then pray painters do good job and backroll:thumbsup:


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## smisner50s

Cratter said:


> Here's out dillema. Smooth walls nice house. We prefilled, taped, and two coats of mud. (is that a level 3 or 4?) Sanded all smooth. Sprayed the Builders Solution (to try and achieve a level 5 finish), but when we hold our 500W Halogen lights directly shining down the walls we can see all the flats!
> 
> Now it just might be that you won't be able to see them cause 500W directly against the wall is overkill but who wants to take that chance?


 builders solution is ment to be sprayed heavy and allowed to self level...it can be backrolled but not ment to be..data sheet says 621tip...thats what io use .50 percent overlapwith the 500 watt shining down the wall so i can see clearly 220 grit knock down.you will probley be able to see the flats a tad bit after knockdown thats just the sanding picking out different surface textures allways looks worse than it is...:thumbup:to coats of finish that will look tits ...at least mine do.


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## ding

Tried my hand at a level 5 on my downstairs walls and ceilings today. rolled some thinned out mud with 3/4 nap roller and smoothed with a 20" trowel. came out ok for a virgin run. i dont think i would call it level 5 just yet. maybe level 4 1/4 :whistling2:. Once I upload my pix maybe i'll post some :blink:


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## SlimPickins

ding said:


> Tried my hand at a level 5 on my downstairs walls and ceilings today. rolled some thinned out mud with 3/4 nap roller and smoothed with a 20" trowel. came out ok for a virgin run. i dont think i would call it level 5 just yet. maybe level 4 1/4 :whistling2:. Once I upload my pix maybe i'll post some :blink:


I've found that the rolled on L5 comes out better if you use a 12" or 14". You can really wipe the mud back off of the wall with even consistency.


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## ding

SlimPickins said:


> I've found that the rolled on L5 comes out better if you use a 12" or 14". You can really wipe the mud back off of the wall with even consistency.


Gonna give everything a quick sand this week and see how it looks. might get one more light roll with 1/4 in and a wipe off with the knife


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## smisner50s

Here are a few pic of my site I sprayed builders solution surficer...than today builders solution topcoat in eggshell....litex commerical texture on the lid in a orangepeel


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## smisner50s

did this one today L5 skimcoat with mud sprayed on ..2 big windows on this hudge wall and its denns armor..i figured L4 was not gonna cut it as soon as you walk into this unit the sun is beating down this wall so it had to be spot on.at the end of the day when it was 95 dry it looked really good


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## mudslingr

Looks nice !:thumbsup:


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## smisner50s

mudslingr said:


> Looks nice !:thumbsup:


 thank you .. im pretty happy with the results:thumbsup:


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## M T Buckets Painting

Nice work, it looks as nice as that shiny new mark v sprayer. I wish I had one of my own.


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## smisner50s

M T Buckets Painting said:


> Nice work, it looks as nice as that shiny new mark v sprayer. I wish I had one of my own.


 dude that thing is sweet...


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## cazna

Nice, Do you use thinned all purpose mud for spraying and a big 30+ tip.


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## 2buckcanuck

So ????????did they ask for level 5 or do you not trust your level 4 work, just wondering who pays:whistling2:

I was at my little side job doing some knock down spray. The painter was a firm believer in good primer. He spent good $$$$$$ on his paint. It made a huge difference in the finish product to me.

Are they going super high gloss paint or something,,,,,you know me, just wondering


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## smisner50s

2buckcanuck said:


> So ????????did they ask for level 5 or do you not trust your level 4 work, just wondering who pays:whistling2:
> 
> I was at my little side job doing some knock down spray. The painter was a firm believer in good primer. He spent good $$$$$$ on his paint. It made a huge difference in the finish product to me.
> 
> Are they going super high gloss paint or something,,,,,you know me, just wondering


 well sence my 395 nova burnt up last week ..and got replaced with a mark v..i was trying it out to see how the skim coat work work..and it worked awsome....not trust my level 4 work ...please ........eggshell paint ..and ive allways said primer is most important...well i was just mainly testing out the new toy....:thumbsup:


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## smisner50s

cazna said:


> Nice, Do you use thinned all purpose mud for spraying and a big 30+ tip.


 on that wall i just used proform taping mud with 1 sponge of water in it ...with a 425 tip.


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## cazna

smisner50s said:


> on that wall i just used proform taping mud with 1 sponge of water in it ...with a 425 tip.


Wow, Those mark 5s must be one powerfull machine to push that, The taping mud must be hard to sand but its prob flat and dosnt need much.


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## D's

hey smisner how did you finish after you sprayed? Did you knife or trowel it flat then sand or was it ready for paint as is?


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## smisner50s

D's said:


> hey smisner how did you finish after you sprayed? Did you knife or trowel it flat then sand or was it ready for paint as is?


I just sprayed it smooth..came out pretty flat..monday ill sand it out.wont take much


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## moore

Looks great Smisner. Is there a drywall tool known to man that you don't have?


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## boco

Hey what are you top coating the builders solutuons with? SWP is demoing out 10 gallons to me. I have a ugly ceiling to skim then paint. I was thinking maybe just leave the bs as finish coat.


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## smisner50s

boco said:


> Hey what are you top coating the builders solutuons with? SWP is demoing out 10 gallons to me. I have a ugly ceiling to skim then paint. I was thinking maybe just leave the bs as finish coat.


I use builders solution top coat eggshell..I have used the b.s surficer as finish coat works well


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## 800PoundGuerrilla

I've had some time to experiment with some new means and methods of achieving Level 5 finish, with the objective being ... to find the most cost effective way of addressing the issues of quality, time, and money. The one product that blew me away was Never-Miss. I was introduced to the product at the 2011 Intex Expo in Vegas. Since arriving back to the Philadelphia area, I've been experimenting with it, with a skeptical eye, and the results that I'm getting are very impressive. Never-Miss is a coloring gel additive with a built in color indicator that highlights common variation defects in all stages of the finishing process with minimal light required. In this business, if you can't see it, you can't fix it ... this product address this universal truth. It can be used for tracking (it comes in 3 colors ... white ... blue ... yellow ... that can be mixed to create additional color variations). It's useful in highlighting touch up. It helps prevent over sanding and highlights what is sanded and what is not. It aids in reading joint highs and lows. It prevents flashing. When used for Level 5 finish, in addition to the forementioned qualities, it eliminates the need for priming. The more I play around with it, the more advantages I see in the product.


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## Jason

Field General said:


> I've had some time to experiment with some new means and methods of achieving Level 5 finish, with the objective being ... to find the most cost effective way of addressing the issues of quality, time, and money. The one product that blew me away was Never-Miss. I was introduced to the product at the 2011 Intex Expo in Vegas. Since arriving back to the Philadelphia area, I've been experimenting with it, with a skeptical eye, and the results that I'm getting are very impressive. Never-Miss is a coloring gel additive with a built in color indicator that highlights common variation defects in all stages of the finishing process with minimal light required. In this business, if you can't see it, you can't fix it ... this product address this universal truth. It can be used for tracking (it comes in 3 colors ... white ... blue ... yellow ... that can be mixed to create additional color variations). It's useful in highlighting touch up. It helps prevent over sanding and highlights what is sanded and what is not. It aids in reading joint highs and lows. It prevents flashing. When used for Level 5 finish, in addition to the forementioned qualities, it eliminates the need for priming. The more I play around with it, the more advantages I see in the product.


And how much will you charging for this food coloring, Commandant?


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## moore

I could use the white to add to my stipple mud.


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## 800PoundGuerrilla

Jason said:


> And how much will you charging for this food coloring, Commandant?


 
The gel is more than just coloring. It actually eliminates the need for priming. The cost of an 8 ounce bottle of Never-Miss and a 5 gallon bucket of mud is half the cost of surface primers and when you calculate the savings of not having to prime afterwards ... $$$$. I sprayed Level 5 with a Mark V and 619 tip and the end result was a scratch resistant surface that looked like it was painted. The other advantage was that any defects found after spraying could be easily detected and touched up with the product without flashing.


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## Jason

Sheesh. And if I order in the next ten minutes will I also receive a free set of bacon straighteners?


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## 800PoundGuerrilla

Jason said:


> Sheesh. And if I order in the next ten minutes will I also receive a free set of bacon straighteners?


 
The first time I used Never-Miss it "straightened my bacon". It's simple ... it's genius. If smart is what smart does, it would be smart to give it a try.


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## rhardman

I've mentioned before that I know Mel and we've been talking about the market, distributors and all of that for a while. He's really been through the ringer with his products.

I was talking with him a couple of days ago and he mentioned that the Never Miss is going to be used on the North Tower at Ground Zero.

Not to be a commercial for him or anything but I know the "heck" he's been through and just want to give him some respect for not giving up.

I think it's a good lesson for everyone in these tough times..._especially me._

:thumbsup:


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## isildur21367

I started this thread a ways back. Just to let u all know I went forward with level5 an it was totally worth it. Huge difference in quality of finish. Definitely recommend all to go with level 5 even for the extra cost.


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## AARC Drywall

Question....
I can understand how it works, but the top coat, how does that work from gel to wall..what is the application..
We generally upcharge to prime the walls as we have to prime the ceiling already for texture. I am curious as to how the final coat works and its steps. Will it take place of the ceiling primer as well?
For all you who dont believe..think of it this way....when you see a autobody tec, sanding and filling the dent in your truck...he has different colors for every state..(most Do)..as he sands and gets closer to finishing, he can tell were he is at by the color left behind. Some areas he knows he has sanded to far because it the lower, color....well this in essence works the same...but with benefits...self priming...no flashing, like food colorings, and chalk.


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## Brit50

*Specs for L4 and l5*

My architect says don't go for L4 or L5 finish. It will cause less builders to bid on job. I call BS so could someone point to the specs for both finishes.
I want to just copy and paste.
I reckon I better spec all the correct procedures down to type of screw and appropriate methods.


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## moore

Brit50 said:


> My architect says don't go for L4 or L5 finish. It will cause less builders to bid on job. I call BS so could someone point to the specs for both finishes.
> I want to just copy and paste.
> I reckon I better spec all the correct procedures down to type of screw and appropriate methods.


 
Google.. the five levels of wallboard finishes:blink:


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## AARC Drywall

Good day everyone.
Since I last posted on the thread, there has been many changes...
We dont use Never Miss.....Junk!! Does not do what it says it suppose to do for wall touch ups...And level 5 changes the mud to make it harder and not easy to touch up if you have a problem.
We are currently working on a home well over 2m, and the customer has requested level 5 finish on all walls and ultra flat ceilings.
We have achieved this with little to no effort, by ways of quality of finishing and Synko Top Coat and Drywall primer. The painter is extremely pleased with the result... We also did use a all in one level 5 finish...hard to explain but it is made by CGC called Tuff Hide. It is a top coat, (MUD) and primer all in one... Man this stuff saves me time, money, and is awesome. The painter is extremely happy with the finished product, as well as the GC and HO. If you have to do a level 5 look it up...


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## fenez

Usg makes tuff hide. Its a good product


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## Brit50

A couple of questions.
I'm still looking for architectural wording for using screws when installing drywall, and words to the effect that if they miss they back them out. If I can't find them I guess the above would suffice along with recommendation for at least a 11/4 inch screw for 1/2 inch board and 1.5 inch for 5/8 board.
Are u guys finding many houses where the walls are spec'd as 5/8 sheetrock? For high end work I always thought this was expected. Why wouldn't an architect spec 5/8?


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## Brit50

Since I'm new here, is there any way I can find those who work in Houston.
I'd rather like to offer work to those who take the time and trouble to be a part of a forum.


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## thefinisher

If you guys get a chance to use Spray-Plast by TWI products, I highly recommend it. A very nice product for level 5.


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