# Adding silica sand to drywall mud



## Nick Harmon

We've been experimenting with adding silica sand to drywall mud for the past 3 months. The results have been amazing. We can go over a painted and textured surface in one coat as opposed to the two coats of the old method. The look and technique is a bit different but we're cutting out an entire coat. This technique could be used to simply cover texture efficiently as well. Let me know what you guys think or if you've used silica sand in mud. I'd like to hear your experience. 
https://youtu.be/2_6hHhTFTCE


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## Wimpy65

We use to add sand to our mud when did textured ceilings back in the 80's. The texture we did was troweled on in random swirls (butter finish). The sand certainly makes the mud much stronger. :thumbsup:


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## endo_alley_revisited

Don't do it!


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## MrWillys

When I started in the 70's and even into the 80's we sprayed acoustic on ceilings and skip trowelled walls. Powdered taping mud with a small amount of number 30 Monterey sand was trowelled on with a 14" knife.


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## endo_alley_revisited

MrWillys said:


> When I started in the 70's and even into the 80's we sprayed acoustic on ceilings and skip trowelled walls. Powdered taping mud with a small amount of number 30 Monterey sand was trowelled on with a 14" knife.


Yeah. It looked good when contrasted with shag carpet. I have an 8000 square foot house to do next spring to remove all that popcorn and sand texture and bring the home up to a modern smooth finish. We have a lot of legacy homes here that have those 1970's finishes. They have gone up in value to where the realtors and designers tell the owners they have to upgrade to retain their property values.


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## Nick Harmon

endo_alley_revisited said:


> Don't do it!


Man if I had listened every time someone told me, "don't do it" Fresco Harmony wouldn't exist. I also would have spent a lot less time in detention. I had never tried the Silica sand before 3 months ago. I'd certainly never seen it with color incorporation. I experimented with it before doing a wall and I have to say there were good samples and bad samples. What I'm doing now is quite beautiful and I'd take it over a boring painted smooth wall or texture any day. I'm curious what the ugly sand texture you're referring to looks like. by using the sealer when the mud is half dry I'm able to smooth the finish very nicely. Also it wasn't my idea. I had a client that wanted a more "aggregate" look. They liked it so much we're doing 10,000 square feet of their new home beginning next week. Since then it's been 50/50 people who prefer it to my old method. I've also found out that American Clay uses varying amounts of Silica sand in some of their mixtures. Yes Wimpy I've also found the finish to be twice as hard as the normal Fresco Harmony we've been doing. Pictured is Turquoise Stone with Silica Sand. Thanks for the feedback guys.


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## MrWillys

This video is a poor example but you'll get the idea. Our guys could leave a consistent pattern of dots.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...4A13BB0DE227ED57C0794A13BB0DE227ED5&FORM=VIRE


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## endo_alley_revisited

MrWillys said:


> This video is a poor example but you'll get the idea. Our guys could leave a consistent pattern of dots.
> http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...4A13BB0DE227ED57C0794A13BB0DE227ED5&FORM=VIRE


That texture was done around here in the 1980's for a while. It is highly out of favor now.


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## endo_alley_revisited

Nick Harmon said:


> We've been experimenting with adding silica sand to drywall mud for the past 3 months. The results have been amazing. We can go over a painted and textured surface in one coat as opposed to the two coats of the old method. The look and technique is a bit different but we're cutting out an entire coat. This technique could be used to simply cover texture efficiently as well. Let me know what you guys think or if you've used silica sand in mud. I'd like to hear your experience.
> https://youtu.be/2_6hHhTFTCE


We did a lot of similar sand texturing here in the 1990's. It was really a fad. A bunch of houses got built with a Santa Fe theme. Flat roofs and exterior parapets and scuppers with no eaves or overhang. The interiors usually had a sand finish texture. Those flat roofs leak like a sieve up here in the high country. Any how, a sand texture is a real bear to repair. Similar to patching stucco. Except on the interior of a house people are much more picky. We have been doing color finishes around here for decades. I have a job we did in the late 1990's to do a bunch of color repairs in later this week. I don't look forward to it.


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## MrWillys

endo_alley_revisited said:


> That texture was done around here in the 1980's for a while. It is highly out of favor now.


 What's funny is they still use it here in Reno. Where I get my blood drawn and others. Our Airport is skip trowel. It is a cheaper alternative to smooth wall and probably used just to save money.


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## endo_alley_revisited

MrWillys said:


> What's funny is they still use it here in Reno. Where I get my blood drawn and others. Our Airport is skip trowel. It is a cheaper alternative to smooth wall and probably used just to save money.


I understand that finishes are a matter of personal preference and taste. I have just done enough of sand texture, skip trowel and hump n bump texture in the past to last me a while. It isn't popular around here any more as I said. But a few years back people couldn't get enough of it. I am not commenting on any body's taste or anybody's workmanship. I will do whatever a client asks of us. I have a house coming up in a couple of weeks where we are doing a smooth color finish on the walls (We call it ICF, for integral color finish). The ceilings will be smooth and painted. I am looking forward to it.


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## Nick Harmon

endo_alley_revisited said:


> We did a lot of similar sand texturing here in the 1990's. It was really a fad. A bunch of houses got built with a Santa Fe theme. Flat roofs and exterior parapets and scuppers with no eaves or overhang. The interiors usually had a sand finish texture. Those flat roofs leak like a sieve up here in the high country. Any how, a sand texture is a real bear to repair. Similar to patching stucco. Except on the interior of a house people are much more picky. We have been doing color finishes around here for decades. I have a job we did in the late 1990's to do a bunch of color repairs in later this week. I don't look forward to it.


I'd love to see a photo of a colored mud sand finish. When you go to do those patches can you post pictures? Yeah we don't do any skip trowel. All our finishes are smooth. We call it Fresco Harmony.


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## MrWillys

Nick Harmon said:


> I'd love to see a photo of a colored mud sand finish. When you go to do those patches can you post pictures? Yeah we don't do any skip trowel. All our finishes are smooth. We call it Fresco Harmony.


 Couldn't send you a PM

Nick,
Is Fresco Harmony as simple as colored mud or is it sealed in some way? Scott


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## endo_alley_revisited

Nick Harmon said:


> I'd love to see a photo of a colored mud sand finish. When you go to do those patches can you post pictures? Yeah we don't do any skip trowel. All our finishes are smooth. We call it Fresco Harmony.


The home we will be patching next week is fairly smooth and no sand. The color is an almond like off white. So I don't know if it will show up well in a photograph. We will probably go wall to wall with the refinish. In this case it will be a lot easier.


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## endo_alley_revisited

MrWillys said:


> Couldn't send you a PM
> 
> Nick,
> Is Fresco Harmony as simple as colored mud or is it sealed in some way? Scott


We have done perhaps close to a hundred jobs in Integral Color Finish over the years. I keep a file of all our color formulas. And it looks about that big. We use a lot of different sealer processes. In the past there was a product called 'Aqua Plastic" that worked well as a sealer. Sprayed on with an airless. When that became hard to come by we started priming with a coat of Ocon W-2. Followed with Sikkens water born polyuerathane. They were one of the first companies that I know of to create flat or very low luster water based sealers. A Sikkens rep came by the local paint store and met up with me one time. He gave me some Sikkens tee shirts for the crew and said I was buying more Sikkens product than just about anybody else in the Western Slope. (Don't know if that is all true or not.) And he wanted to know what we were doing with it all. I would buy fifty gallons at a whack. And that stuff ain't cheap. I always give the client an option for a paste wax top coat if they wish to pay for it.


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## endo_alley_revisited

But man. In the last five years all anybody wants around here is level five smooth. Can't hardly give away a plaster finish. Tastes are fickle. What really gets me is people have me bid out level three in the garage, closets, and pantry. Level four in the rest of the house. And level five in the living/great room. All to drop the price. But then when you do the work they expect it to be a level five quality everywhere. But for less money.


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## Nick Harmon

MrWillys said:


> Couldn't send you a PM
> 
> Nick,
> Is Fresco Harmony as simple as colored mud or is it sealed in some way? Scott


Sorry about that. I had to clean out some of the messages there. Yes, it's as simple as colored joint compound but just like any joint compound surface it needs to be sealed. Just like any surface application there's more to it. Modern Masters Venetian Topcoat works the best for sealer, but we've also used BEHR Venetian Topcoat. What Fresco Harmony has done is create a method to both duplicate color consistency with a corresponding color chart that makes communicating color as easy as possible. This enables professionals to accurately create color and communicate color with out inventing the wheel. Our colors have been painstakingly created over the last 12 years based on what clients and designers have chosen. I'm happy to send you a color pack and color chart to check out if you pm me your address. You can check out all our colors here http://frescoharmony.com/shop/


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## Nick Harmon

endo_alley_revisited said:


> We have done perhaps close to a hundred jobs in Integral Color Finish over the years. I keep a file of all our color formulas. And it looks about that big. We use a lot of different sealer processes. In the past there was a product called 'Aqua Plastic" that worked well as a sealer. Sprayed on with an airless. When that became hard to come by we started priming with a coat of Ocon W-2. Followed with Sikkens water born polyuerathane. They were one of the first companies that I know of to create flat or very low luster water based sealers. A Sikkens rep came by the local paint store and met up with me one time. He gave me some Sikkens tee shirts for the crew and said I was buying more Sikkens product than just about anybody else in the Western Slope. (Don't know if that is all true or not.) And he wanted to know what we were doing with it all. I would buy fifty gallons at a whack. And that stuff ain't cheap. I always give the client an option for a paste wax top coat if they wish to pay for it.


Great information! Venetian Topcoat is a troweled on, high viscosity, sealer that seems to be harder than anything I've seen. Even with the sealer we're down around .10 - .20 per sq ft total material cost. I'll research these sealers you're talking bout. I'm always interested in new sealer methods. Also I've spoken with many who claim to have done colored mud systems in the past but you're the only person I've come across that has done anything consistently with it so pardon my inquary. Yes, it can be a hard sell because it's different but when we compare cost with that of plaster, variance, american clay or even smooth finish we are competitive enough to sway their opinion. I find having like 10 sample boards on hand is invaluable. For the past 12 years I've managed to make a living and develop a market just doing Fresco Harmony. We've hung and finished, and ran Fresco Harmony on a couple houses but this is mostly curtisy as drywall profit margins 1/10 of what we see with Fresco Harmony. What I'd like to see is drywall professionals having something more to offer clients with a price point competitive to paint and texture. With the incorporation of some the innovative Trim-Tex methods on the market, I'd like to see the word, "artisan" brought back to drywall skills that are highly underrated in the construction industry.


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## endo_alley_revisited

Nick Harmon said:


> Great information! Venetian Topcoat is a troweled on, high viscosity, sealer that seems to be harder than anything I've seen. Even with the sealer we're down around .10 - .20 per sq ft total material cost. I'll research these sealers you're talking bout. I'm always interested in new sealer methods. Also I've spoken with many who claim to have done colored mud systems in the past but you're the only person I've come across that has done anything consistently with it so pardon my inquary. Yes, it can be a hard sell because it's different but when we compare cost with that of plaster, variance, american clay or even smooth finish we are competitive enough to sway their opinion. I find having like 10 sample boards on hand is invaluable. For the past 12 years I've managed to make a living and develop a market just doing Fresco Harmony. We've hung and finished, and ran Fresco Harmony on a couple houses but this is mostly curtisy as drywall profit margins 1/10 of what we see with Fresco Harmony. What I'd like to see is drywall professionals having something more to offer clients with a price point competitive to paint and texture. With the incorporation of some the innovative Trim-Tex methods on the market, I'd like to see the word, "artisan" brought back to drywall skills that are highly underrated in the construction industry.



There are a variety of ways to do most anything. But we always sprayed a sealer on first before applying the paste wax or hard coat. We use a bunch of Modern Maters sealer too. Sometimes the Behr product. I started doing the ICF finish as a second option for people who asked for Integrated Color Diamond Finish veneer plaster. For about a decade most of the homes we did were spec'd for Diamond Finish plaster. The method we devised looks much better than Integral Color Diamond plaster for about a third less money. But I went from running two crews of plasterers before the "Great Recession" to one crew doing that finish occasionally. I would like to get back into it on a more production like scale. But the market still hasn't come back to where people will spend the extra money. My plaster guys right now are skimming out houses with spray textures and turning it into a level four or five smooth. The only way I can sell ICF to my clients today is to tell them that I can color my material when skimming their walls and for not much more money and save them on the cost of a painter.
I hate marketing the technique as a cost cutting strategy. When what we put out is a very nice looking upscale product. But what can you do?


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## Nick Harmon

Finally getting to do new construction aggregate system. One coat over level 3 drywall finish then seal. The results are exceeding my expectations. Only issue is that it used twice as much joint compound as normal. We're up over 80 boxes for the entire house. Takes about the same amount of time as normal 3 coat Fresco Harmony system. Love this finish.
Ceiling Gallery Pearl
Walls custom color (Gallery Pearl Dark)
Project 13,500.00
Labor 3,000.00 approx. 3 guys two weeks. 
Material cost including Color Packs and sealer 2,500.00
Profit 8,500.00
www.frescoharmony.com


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## Nick Harmon

Finally getting to do new construction aggregate system. One coat over level 3 drywall finish then seal. The results are exceeding my expectations. Only issue is that it used twice as much joint compound as normal. We're up over 80 boxes for the entire house. Takes about the same amount of time as normal 3 coat Fresco Harmony system. Love this finish.
Ceiling Gallery Pearl
Walls custom color (Gallery Pearl Dark)
1.10 per sq
Project 13,500.00
Labor 3,000.00 approx. 3 guys two weeks. 
Material cost including Color Packs and sealer 2,500.00
Profit 8,500.00
www.frescoharmony.com


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## endo_alley_revisited

I had said earlier that we were doing some ICF repairs in a home that we completed about ten years ago. And that I would take some photos.


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## Nick Harmon

Very nice sir. I love the look. My only issue was that it burned up twice as much mud and sealer.


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## Nick Harmon

endo_alley_revisited said:


> But man. In the last five years all anybody wants around here is level five smooth. Can't hardly give away a plaster finish. Tastes are fickle. What really gets me is people have me bid out level three in the garage, closets, and pantry. Level four in the rest of the house. And level five in the living/great room. All to drop the price. But then when you do the work they expect it to be a level five quality everywhere. But for less money.


Yep. After I got the bid on this house the corners were changed from square to round, he subtracted the garage completely, and decided he didn't want base board. It's a clever tactic by contractors to lower price after square footage price has been locked in.


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## eihi

Your posts are great Nick, thanks for sharing this technique


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## thefinisher

Nick Harmon said:


> endo_alley_revisited said:
> 
> 
> 
> But man. In the last five years all anybody wants around here is level five smooth. Can't hardly give away a plaster finish. Tastes are fickle. What really gets me is people have me bid out level three in the garage, closets, and pantry. Level four in the rest of the house. And level five in the living/great room. All to drop the price. But then when you do the work they expect it to be a level five quality everywhere. But for less money.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. After I got the bid on this house the corners were changed from square to round, he subtracted the garage completely, and decided he didn't want base board. It's a clever tactic by contractors to lower price after square footage price has been locked in.
Click to expand...

Yep I hate that crap


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## AaronFalls44

Wimpy65 said:


> We use to add sand to our mud when did textured ceilings back in the 80's. The texture we did was troweled on in random swirls (butter finish). The sand certainly makes the mud much stronger. :thumbsup:


I agree with this!


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