# Finishing bath and shower modules



## mqr78p

When finishing one piece bath and or shower units there are two schools of thought.
#1-Run the rock only up to the edge of the mounting flange and prefill with setting type compound (hot mudd) then flat tape and finish with "green lid".

#2-Fur out the wall so drywall factory tapered edge sets squarely over the flange and screw heads within a maxium 1/4" of the unit and fill with 100% silicone mold resistant caulk.

Which method is most common in your neck of the woods? And why would you favor one over the other?

In So.Cal #1 is the most common or in other words why do we do method #1 when the factory recommends #2


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## silverstilts

mqr78p said:


> When finishing one piece bath and or shower units there are two schools of thought.
> #1-Run the rock only up to the edge of the mounting flange and prefill with setting type compound (hot mudd) then flat tape and finish with "green lid".
> 
> #2-Fur out the wall so drywall factory tapered edge sets squarely over the flange and screw heads within a maxium 1/4" of the unit and fill with 100% silicone mold resistant caulk.
> 
> Which method is most common in your neck of the woods? And why would you favor one over the other?
> 
> In So.Cal #1 is the most common or in other words why do we do method #1 when the factory recommends #2


 You are correct but, the silicon I would prefer paintable silicon which is not 100 percent silicon. The most common here is cutting the rock back to butt up against the shower flange. You use to see contractors shimming or furring out the walls but they got to lazy and too cheap to do it any more, besides if there is a prehung door on where the rock is shimmed out it messes with their jamb thickness.


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## gotmud

Ok I will chime in here, method #1 is most prevalent here in my area and is the method I prefer. Why? I have seen method #2 and never thought the board appeared to be sitting "flat" I always prefill with Durabond 90 (and here's the part that will get me in trouble lol) lay on mesh tape into the still wet durabond, then skim coat with another layer of DB 90 .then I finish as usual with either AP or plus3.
Now, to the naysayers, I have never had a call back for my tub/showers.
Also, just so I am clear where I stand, besides for repairs that is the only place I use mesh and of course you only use hot mud when using mesh. 
Mesh and paper both have their place in this trade IMO


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## Capt-sheetrock

gotmud said:


> Ok I will chime in here, method #1 is most prevalent here in my area and is the method I prefer. Why? I have seen method #2 and never thought the board appeared to be sitting "flat" I always prefill with Durabond 90 (and here's the part that will get me in trouble lol) lay on mesh tape into the still wet durabond, then skim coat with another layer of DB 90 .then I finish as usual with either AP or plus3.
> Now, to the naysayers, I have never had a call back for my tub/showers.
> Also, just so I am clear where I stand, besides for repairs that is the only place I use mesh and of course you only use hot mud when using mesh.
> Mesh and paper both have their place in this trade IMO


At the risk of sounding like myself,,,,, why would mesh be any better here than paper???


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## Scott_w

Ok, to be blunt, and not meant to offend anyone, filling the recess with any type of mud is completely WRONG! What will happen is that WHEN the caulking around the tub unit fails, which it will, water will wick up in the wall.

Method number 2 is the correct method.

scott


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## moore

A shim job do work well,,but sometimes the rock is even -level with the top of shower-tubs [the cheap ones] sometimes even overlap .

Don't stand there and look those shower-tubs too long.
Or you will scratch It..


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## Capt-sheetrock

heres a cool little tip on some of them tubs.

If the tub has a short wall at the end of it, ya know, where it takes a 4" rip and two beads.

Cut the rip 41/4", eyeball the rip on the end of the wall, so that the edge of it is even with the flange of the IMPROPERLY installed tub. Then put the 1 1/2 rip against the tub, draw it tight with nails. Makes a perfect 90 degree, where otherwise you get that UGLY off angle twist.


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## cdwoodcox

What silver said.


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## gotmud

Capt-sheetrock said:


> At the risk of sounding like myself,,,,, why would mesh be any better here than paper???


I feel mesh and hot mud are 10 times stronger than paper, and I guess because I was taught that way, been doing it for years.
I can tell from reading your posts over the last several months you, Capt, are way more experienced than I am and your one of many that I highly respect on DWT.
So I will leave my response at that and not run the risk of sounding like a idiot lol :thumbsup:


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## moore

gotmud said:


> I feel mesh and hot mud are 10 times stronger than paper, and I guess because I was taught that way, been doing it for years.
> I can tell from reading your posts over the last several months you, Capt, are way more experienced than I am and your one of many that I highly respect on DWT.
> So I will leave my response at that and not run the risk of sounding like a idiot lol :thumbsup:


OR ... Is hot-mud and paper tape 10 times stronger than mesh:blink:LOL!!


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## SlimPickins

We mostly see butting up to the flange here, and most guys fill with hot mud. I've started using Vario instead, it has more water resistant properties than standard set-muds. I then go over the fill with Fiba-fuse (paper + water = mold fellas) If no Fiba-fuse, then glass tape (again, paper + water = mold fellas). I've been looking around for this 90 minute M2Tech mud, but haven't seen any around although I know it exists.

I've seen a$$piles of failure at tubs, and ALL of it was paper tape. Without exception.


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## Capt-sheetrock

gotmud said:


> I feel mesh and hot mud are 10 times stronger than paper, and I guess because I was taught that way, been doing it for years.
> I can tell from reading your posts over the last several months you, Capt, are way more experienced than I am and your one of many that I highly respect on DWT.
> So I will leave my response at that and not run the risk of sounding like a idiot lol :thumbsup:


Have ya give any thought to the fact I might just be old and senile???????

:whistling2::jester::thumbup:


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## moore

SlimPickins said:


> We mostly see butting up to the flange here, and most guys fill with hot mud. I've started using Vario instead, it has more water resistant properties than standard set-muds. I then go over the fill with Fiba-fuse (paper + water = mold fellas) If no Fiba-fuse, then glass tape (again, paper + water = mold fellas). I've been looking around for this 90 minute M2Tech mud, but haven't seen any around although I know it exists.
> 
> I've seen a$$piles of failure at tubs, and ALL of it was paper tape. Without exception.


Your right slim ... Paper will not hold up over time to moisture /steam weak exhaust fan /no caulking around tub /regular board instead of water-proof/two coats of flat with no prime/but I've never had a call back on a tub,,,but just because they don't complain doesn't mean there's no complaint. I have done many bath renos ,and the paper tape around showers tear away clean .. shake the dried mud off ,,and can reuse the tape 

Never tried your method ,,but I will In the future..
but IMO ,,ya can't beat water. water will find It's way ,and when It does no material Is safe ... maintenance really helps around showers [ H/O] 
I cut away caulk around my 2 shower tubs here [home] and re-caulk once a year .. The kids shower maybe twice a year.. [ when those 2 grow up and buy there first new homes I'm gonna walk in the front door with a bucket of sh!T IN BOTH HANDS and start slinging .AND I will have 2 boxes of thumb tacs in my pocket .


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## moore

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Have ya give any thought to the fact I might just be old and senile???????
> 
> :whistling2::jester::thumbup:


Yes we have


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## mudslingr

Used to do #1 until water issues arose.

Then we used to go over the flange and finish with a paper "L" until some stress cracks started to appear from the board bending over the flange and screw which was not set properly.:furious::furious:

Now the contractor shims and trims for a nicer look.

I don't like #1 or #2 but if that's what they want !:blink:


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## gotmud

moore said:


> OR ... Is hot-mud and paper tape 10 times stronger than mesh:blink:LOL!!


lol don't wanna go there moore ,we dont need another paper vs mesh thread 
:bangin::bangin::whistling2:


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## gotmud

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Have ya give any thought to the fact I might just be old and senile???????
> nope not at all
> :whistling2::jester::thumbup:


older and wiser 

:thumbup:


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## moore

gotmud said:


> older and wiser
> 
> :thumbup:


:yes::yes::yes::yes:


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## Captain Drywall

around here they just hang the rock right over the flange no shim. just bend it over. i bet they dont even caulk the edge. just paint it and your good.


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## chris

you can use J bead around edges of rock instead of taping, also turning piece around (brownside) with recessed board around flange it will darn near lay flat


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## 2buckcanuck

method one, but we must have a method 3, most times they put a small row of tile around the shower or tube, sometimes they put trim around the shower. but were using these type of showers more







Sometimes we half to install 1/2 bead a round these, or the builder will have the rockers install the bevelled edge of the drywall to it, then trim around it.


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## 2buckcanuck

gotmud said:


> I can tell from reading your posts over the last several months you, Capt, are way more experienced than I am and your one of many that I highly respect on DWT.
> So I will leave my response at that and not run the risk of sounding like a idiot lol :thumbsup:


:whistling2::whistling2:


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## Scott_w

I missunderstood what you guys were talking about. I thought you were talking about areas with just a tub, and tiled walls etc...  


The flange on the outside, IF the tub (like 2buck posted) is installed correctly as per the instructions, should be recessed. The drywall should lay flat. 

I use J bead around it and trim out with casing after. Then between the J trim and the tub unit is caulked with a paintable caulking. Nice clean finish.

scott


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> Your right slim ... Paper will not hold up over time to moisture /steam weak exhaust fan /no caulking around tub /regular board instead of water-proof/two coats of flat with no prime/but I've never had a call back on a tub,,,but just because they don't complain doesn't mean there's no complaint. I have done many bath renos ,and the paper tape around showers tear away clean .. shake the dried mud off ,,and can reuse the tape
> 
> Never tried your method ,,but I will In the future..
> but IMO ,,ya can't beat water. water will find It's way ,and when It does no material Is safe ... maintenance really helps around showers [ H/O]
> I cut away caulk around my 2 shower tubs here [home] and re-caulk once a year .. The kids shower maybe twice a year.. [ when those 2 grow up and buy there first new homes I'm gonna walk in the front door with a bucket of sh!T IN BOTH HANDS and start slinging .AND I will have 2 boxes of thumb tacs in my pocket .


You're right, in that it's extremely difficult to beat water. The second you add regular mud to your shower you're inviting failure. It's definitely a process, from hang through paint. When I hang shower flanges, I put the bevel to the flange so I have rolled paper at the bottom to avoid wicking from the gypsum. Having the bevel there also makes it easy to make it go away without a lot of mud. But after I'm done, I have to rely on the painter to make it right....heavy coats of paint and a good solid caulk bead. Some people get so concerned with a tiny pretty bead that they just don't put enough material in there to protect the weak spot.

Hey Moore, when you go to dirty up your kids house, can you make sure to sprinkle some sand in their beds for me?


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## silverstilts

Scott_w said:


> Ok, to be blunt, and not meant to offend anyone, filling the recess with any type of mud is completely WRONG! What will happen is that WHEN the caulking around the tub unit fails, which it will, water will wick up in the wall.
> 
> Method number 2 is the correct method.
> 
> scott


The correct method around just a tub would be no sheetrock at all , rather durarock or cement board , or fiberboard designed for that specific use then tile & caulk. Even if you shim the wall to match the flange on a tub unit and sheetrock over it it will still rot. Don't matter if you use M.R. board or not that stuff is Moister resistant NOT WATER PROOF.... It will still absorb water and rot. Tile board (cement board) is cut to the flange not overlapping it and filled with mastic cement or adhesive when tile is installed. On a flanged unit shower or bath shower unit whether you use L-bead or not caulking is necessary so since you have to caulk anyway why even use L-bead? You are preventing from water getting to the backside of the rock & mud. Sure it looks all pretty for whoever has to caulk it but I think prefill on rock cut back to the edge of the flange with quickset and flat taping give a more tighter seal to caulk against and looks so much better. I guess you have to do what works for you and what the contractor specifies. Haven't had any callbacks for failure's or any rotting so it works for me.


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## chris

j bead. brownside...the best method:yes:


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## silverstilts

2buckcanuck said:


> method one, but we must have a method 3, most times they put a small row of tile around the shower or tube, sometimes they put trim around the shower. but were using these type of showers more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes we half to install 1/2 bead a round these, or the builder will have the rockers install the bevelled edge of the drywall to it, then trim around it.


 That type of shower unit is a different situation as it has a hood and is set into the wall verses one without a hood or canopy. These are the best and really there is little chance for any water to get in between the rock and shower since most of these usally protrude out from the finished wall at least 1/4" or so. I could see using trim around them, tile well I think that may look a little out of place but all depends on what the rest of the room design & decor is. Whatever we do the contractor has the final say as long as he stands behind his decision.


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## silverstilts

chris said:


> j bead. brownside...the best method:yes:


 And the ugliest .


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## chris

the only way to guarantee your edge of drywall/tape next to tub is to trim it with j bead.It looks same as if you flattape but no tape or edge f rock too worry about... lasts FOREVER,give it a try. The bevel on flange is next best approach,but we flip sheet so bevel goes over flange but doesnt toouch. Keep SCREWS about 4" above flange


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## Scott_w

silverstilts said:


> The correct method around just a tub would be no sheetrock at all , rather durarock or cement board , or fiberboard designed for that specific use then tile & caulk. Even if you shim the wall to match the flange on a tub unit and sheetrock over it it will still rot. Don't matter if you use M.R. board or not that stuff is Moister resistant NOT WATER PROOF.... It will still absorb water and rot. Tile board (cement board) is cut to the flange not overlapping it and filled with mastic cement or adhesive when tile is installed. On a flanged unit shower or bath shower unit whether you use L-bead or not caulking is necessary so since you have to caulk anyway why even use L-bead? You are preventing from water getting to the backside of the rock & mud. Sure it looks all pretty for whoever has to caulk it but I think prefill on rock cut back to the edge of the flange with quickset and flat taping give a more tighter seal to caulk against and looks so much better. I guess you have to do what works for you and what the contractor specifies. Haven't had any callbacks for failure's or any rotting so it works for me.


1>Yes, the wallboard is brought to the top edge of the flange. BUT drywall CAN be used behind a tiled shower with the proper products. There are MANY waterproofing products on the markets for just this purpose. As well, tiling over cement board, denshield etc without a waterproofing product (such as kerdi or provamat) is wrong. They as well are not water proof! Although they may not mold themselves, they will cause mold within the wall cavity due to all the moisture. Mastic should NEVER be used in a wet location as well.

2>As far as the painters caulking, I was referring the to the outside of the shower unit that 2 buck posted (with the cap). The painters caulk fills the inconsistancies in the edge of the acrylic unit that meets up with the J trim as the units edge is "rolled" and not a nice straight square edge.

3> On tile/tub situations, you use silicone to fill the void at the flange as it is water proof and will not wick water up into the wall WHEN the visable silicone (between the tile and tub) fails, which it will. If it is filled with mortar, or mud, it will wick up water.

FWIW, I do all my work start to finish, not just the drywall so I am the "next guy".

edit...added a few pics of how I do them. Can't find one with the J bead though. I never use the units without the top.


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## mudslingr

2buckcanuck said:


> method one, but we must have a method 3, most times they put a small row of tile around the shower or tube, sometimes they put trim around the shower. but were using these type of showers more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes we half to install 1/2 bead a round these, or the builder will have the rockers install the bevelled edge of the drywall to it, then trim around it.


This is the most popular style around here. I love working with these !:yes:


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## mqr78p

Sorry about that.


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## silverstilts

mqr78p said:


> Silverstilts,
> 
> In a production "new construction" setting, pre-filling appears to be the predominate practice, in a remodel setting on occasion existing furred out walls are found. Pre-filling in this situation would require a thicker section of compound to makeup for the existing furring.Would you still opt for prefilling over the standard 1/2 drywall fill where a thicker section of compound is required?:blink:


 What the h e double hockey sticks are u rambling about? If you need to fill a thicker section of wall figure that one out yourself...... and stick to remodeling and the taping to pros.


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## mqr78p

Rambling it was,sorry about that.


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## cdwoodcox

chris said:


> j bead. brownside...the best method:yes:


The main thing I see with brown side out is the craft paper on the back of drywall is alot different than the paper on front of sheet. And could release from gypsum with any high humidity/moisture situation. 

However with a furred wall mud on j bead would hold up better than any tape.


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## gazman

Are shower modules the standard in the US, and Canada? They are a rarity over here.


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## moore

cdwoodcox said:


> The main thing I see with brown side out is the craft paper on the back of drywall is alot different than the paper on front of sheet. And could release from gypsum with any high humidity/moisture situation.
> 
> However with a furred wall mud on j bead would hold up better than any tape.


oops


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## moore

Scott_w said:


> 1>Yes, the wallboard is brought to the top edge of the flange. BUT drywall CAN be used behind a tiled shower with the proper products. There are MANY waterproofing products on the markets for just this purpose. As well, tiling over cement board, denshield etc without a waterproofing product (such as kerdi or provamat) is wrong. They as well are not water proof! Although they may not mold themselves, they will cause mold within the wall cavity due to all the moisture. Mastic should NEVER be used in a wet location as well.
> 
> 2>As far as the painters caulking, I was referring the to the outside of the shower unit that 2 buck posted (with the cap). The painters caulk fills the inconsistancies in the edge of the acrylic unit that meets up with the J trim as the units edge is "rolled" and not a nice straight square edge.
> 
> 3> On tile/tub situations, you use silicone to fill the void at the flange as it is water proof and will not wick water up into the wall WHEN the visable silicone (between the tile and tub) fails, which it will. If it is filled with mortar, or mud, it will wick up water.
> 
> FWIW, I do all my work start to finish, not just the drywall so I am the "next guy".
> 
> edit...added a few pics of how I do them. Can't find one with the J bead though. I never use the units without the top.


Those are the easy ones..The cheap shower tubs are the bitch.


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## moore

When I hang shower flanges, I put the bevel to the flange so I have rolled paper at the bottom to avoid wicking from the gypsum. Having the bevel there also makes it easy to make it go away without a lot of mud.




So 2 extra butts In a small bath above the tub? How do you get the recess against the tub on the [email protected] ..railroad?


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## Bill from Indy

I may get slammed for saying this but here goes...

I have been packing the flange with board cut to flange and not over with 20min quickset..taped/skimmed/painted and caulked between paint and tub for 20yrs and NEVER had a callback..if people are getting the board wet from shower use to where it is deteriorating or failing....they need to learn how to use a damn shower..sorry guys...not saying my method is the only way but it has never failed me and I think a lot of people are taking this way to extreme...just sayin

maybe on the next one I get to do I can try out this shower bead that Joe was so happy to send me  and this thread will be a non issue:thumbsup:

If it works as good as I think Joe, I may have to retract my "model T" statement


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## mudslingr

gazman said:


> Are shower modules the standard in the US, and Canada? They are a rarity over here.


Seems that most renos get a new one of these and most new houses around here have 2 or more. They're quite popular in Ontario.


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## gotmud

Bill from Indy said:


> I may get slammed for saying this but here goes...
> 
> I have been packing the flange with board cut to flange and not over with 20min quickset..taped/skimmed/painted and caulked between paint and tub for 20yrs and NEVER had a callback..if people are getting the board wet from shower use to where it is deteriorating or failing....they need to learn how to use a damn shower..sorry guys...not saying my method is the only way but it has never failed me and I think a lot of people are taking this way to extreme...just sayin
> 
> maybe on the next one I get to do I can try out this shower bead that Joe was so happy to send me  and this thread will be a non issue:thumbsup:
> 
> If it works as good as I think Joe, I may have to retract my "model T" statement


thanks Bill I'm right there with u on this one!
And I would be curious about trim-texs shower bead they have, I want to try it and I actually have a tub/shower unit to do coming up :thumbsup:


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## 2buckcanuck

gazman said:


> Are shower modules the standard in the US, and Canada? They are a rarity over here.


it's like anything else gazman, Kitchens and bathrooms, you can go wild with your Imagination, but.....

The 1st pick is the one everyone is talking about, how do you finish the edge/flange with the drywall. You don't half to be a rocket scientist to know what happens if you land to rock on top of the flange. But that type of shower stall would be likely found in lower end/cheap house like a town house/row housing, student residence or a basement. The other pic would be a typical set up in a higher end home. The shower could be inclosed with cement board too. So it's what silver stilts said, it's all about what the builder wants. Personally to me, any builder that wants any shower unit finished by the taper, is a cheap arse IMO....... But if thats what they want, what do you do


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## gazman

2buckcanuck said:


> it's like anything else gazman, Kitchens and bathrooms, you can go wild with your Imagination, but.....
> 
> The 1st pick is the one everyone is talking about, how do you finish the edge/flange with the drywall. You don't half to be a rocket scientist to know what happens if you land to rock on top of the flange. But that type of shower stall would be likely found in lower end/cheap house like a town house/row housing, student residence or a basement. The other pic would be a typical set up in a higher end home. The shower could be inclosed with cement board too. So it's what silver stilts said, it's all about what the builder wants. Personally to me, any builder that wants any shower unit finished by the taper, is a cheap arse IMO....... But if thats what they want, what do you do



The second pic is the norm here.
We use fibre cement sheet on timber frames & Aquacheck (water resistant rock) on steel frames. The fibre cement doesnt seem to be able to handle the movement of a steel frame and cracks along the joins.
All joins and fasteners in the shower are taped and coated using wet area base coat. It is a premixed acrylic compound that sets like concrete.

Then the shower are is water proofed by the builder.
http://www.flexitray.com.au/whatwedo.htm


Then tiled.


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## SlimPickins

chris said:


> the only way to guarantee your edge of drywall/tape next to tub is to trim it with j bead.It looks same as if you flattape but no tape or edge f rock too worry about... lasts FOREVER,give it a try. The bevel on flange is next best approach,but we flip sheet so bevel goes over flange but doesnt toouch. Keep SCREWS about 4" above flange


Next time I'm on a shower I'll see if recess will pass over the flange if board is brown....I like the j-bead thought (vinyl of course), but then you have to mud it and we're back in the same place....


Man, lots of good stuff in this thread to respond to so I'll add to my post...

Moore, there are always joints at the corner of the shower on the long walls. Yes, pain in the ass but that's just how it goes I guess.

I've been wanting to give this shower bead a shot too, but if the cost is high-ish, it's not really saving anything.

2Buck, you're right....drywall to tub is cheap, and no one wants to pay for me to put DenShield up :laughing: The worst are those multi-piece solid units that get slapped in...big gaps along the edge where it's virtually impossible to get a good seal and they're a pain in the ass to finish.


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## Captain Drywall

gazman said:


> Are shower modules the standard in the US, and Canada? They are a rarity over here.


 Fairly common around here. Many apartments and cheaper houses. Some hotel. Next would be tile.


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## Bevelation

80% of the jobs I do now get the 90-minute and flat-tape treatment. I hate it. 3 years ago every job I did had tile around the tub flange because I dealt with people that liked the nuance of tile around the tub perimeter. Now I deal with people that mostly don't care.

That's my complaint for the day.


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## Bazooka-Joe

moore said:


> OR ... Is hot-mud and paper tape 10 times stronger than mesh:blink:LOL!!


nawwwwww lol


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