# What is best paint technique for smooth ceilings?



## Mudbronco

We just finished a smooth ceiling project. Can't see any seams, butts or nails spots, but the sun shines off the snow covered ground and you can see sanding marks and uneven paint. Trying to explain to the builder that the painter needs a good primer, light check, sand then two coats of the best paint. Not having much luck. Any other suggestions from our very smart and experienced audience? We do hand sand ceilings - no power sanding. Drywall is all new. Thanks.


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## PrecisionTaping

Did the painter pre-sand in between coats?


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## boco

i had the same problem a while back and we started to do a level 5 finish and the problem went away. Its more work but in some instances with sun reflection level 5 is your best bet. Next best option would be to spray builders solutions from swp. Then 2 coats of paint that are sprayed and backrolled in 1 in each direction. Another help would be to shine a 300w bulb on everything before priming.


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## SlimPickins

I was reading up recently on a USG product for L5. They discussed the differences between sealers, primers, and high-build products. You need something that has volume, to fill in the slight texture variations between board and mud. A sealer is going to give you even absorption for subsequent layers of paint, but will not fill the discrepancies in surface texture. A regular primer will fill the micro-voids slightly, but will not give even absorption. The high builds are a combination of both, and are intended to level and seal the surface. It all made perfect sense.

Did your painter backroll? Did he have someone else doing it right behind him, so joints weren't flashing? Did he sand the prime coat (to me, this is absolutely crucial, and can allow one to skip the high-build products). I've had quite a few good smooth finishes (L4) ruined by painters.


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## DrywallerDustin

SlimPickins said:


> I was reading up recently on a USG product for L5. They discussed the differences between sealers, primers, and high-build products. You need something that has volume, to fill in the slight texture variations between board and mud. A sealer is going to give you even absorption for subsequent layers of paint, but will not fill the discrepancies in surface texture. A regular primer will fill the micro-voids slightly, but will not give even absorption. The high builds are a combination of both, and are intended to level and seal the surface. It all made perfect sense.
> 
> Did your painter backroll? Did he have someone else doing it right behind him, so joints weren't flashing? Did he sand the prime coat (to me, this is absolutely crucial, and can allow one to skip the high-build products). I've had quite a few good smooth finishes (L4) ruined by painters.



USG's first coat, tuff hide, or westpac's prep coat or smooth wall-5 are all similar hi build primers that make a good level 4 look amazing, I'll actually be using westpacs smooth coat-5 on a level 4 smooth house this week that i finished taping a couple weeks ago, the biggest problem with these is an airless big enough to spray it, I just bought a Titan 1140 yesterday so I can spray these products.
It can be rolled on as well but not as good of a finish, 
I actually had a level 4 job that had a horrible flashing problem in a hallway ( dumb architects spec'd semi gloss paint on a level 4 wall) it was done, I went back and rolled USG's first coat on it and 2 coats of paint, the flashing was gone!


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## 2buckcanuck

happy reading, find your ammo

http://www.just-checkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/PDCA-Standards.pdf


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## Kelso

Sounds like the painter didn't change nap size or sand between coats! Prime should be 20/25 mm nap then first coat should be 20/15mm final should be 10mm with light sand between coats this meathead should eliminate flashing but level 5 is the easiest way to fix this kind of problem!


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## Mudbronco

*Ceilings*

Thanks for the great feedback. The ceilings are not flashing. You can't see flats, butts or nail spotting. We did have a few ceilings with humped flats but we reskimmed those areas and fixed that problem. Our main problem is sanding scratches and uneven looking. When we taped the ceilings we applied three coats of Pro Form lite, sanded, skimmed and sanded the large room ceilings. I am trying to find out what the painter did to finish and products used. I agree that USG First Coat is the best primer. It is easy to sand too. My guess is the painter did not use a primer, did not sand between coats, and did not roll in two directions. I will report back my findings. We hired our own painter to fix one of the ceilings and in that case we primed, rolled one direction and rolled the other direction with great results. This is in a high end home with a very particular homeowner so anything less than perfection is rejected (can't blame him for that).

Thanks again. Good to see other contractors know what they are doing.


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## Mudbronco

*ceilings*

Nap is also very important. Doing some research on that one too. 

Dustin, egg shell and semi gloss paints are also tough to deal with. I had two big commercial jobs go bad due to lack of a primer specification prior to application of shiny paint. I had one painter us egg shell paint as the primer. I read the paint can to the general contractor to get out of that back charge.

ALL my proposals now have a disclaimer stating the proposal does not include preparation for egg shell paint application. This has save me many times as the contractor will inquire about the disclaimer and if the egg shell is going to be used I give him the option price of fogging walls prior to priming or using USG First Coat primer.


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## Newagestucco

Mudbronco said:


> We just finished a smooth ceiling project. Can't see any seams, butts or nails spots, but the sun shines off the snow covered ground and you can see sanding marks and uneven paint. Trying to explain to the builder that the painter needs a good primer, light check, sand then two coats of the best paint. Not having much luck. Any other suggestions from our very smart and experienced audience? We do hand sand ceilings - no power sanding. Drywall is all new. Thanks.


 
walk inn on one of my private jobs todays to finish some stuff
wow lucky I went , have some big ceilings that are level 4
for some reason , seen they had paint there , i start looking at it
its all eggshell for ceiling 
went told the owner , no way , thats not happening on my ceilings
flat paint on big ceilings , he says I have to by more paint
said yes or level 5 and i want more $
he told me he go by flat paint
im ok with eggshell on small ceilings but not large one
its not that you see the joints
you see the flash from the mud compare to the board 
got to look into those new primers some of yous talk about


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## 2buckcanuck

Newagestucco said:


> walk inn on one of my private jobs todays to finish some stuff
> wow lucky I went , have some big ceilings that are level 4
> for some reason , seen they had paint there , i start looking at it
> its all eggshell for ceiling
> went told the owner , no way , thats not happening on my ceilings
> flat paint on big ceilings , he says I have to by more paint
> said yes or level 5 and i want more $
> he told me he go by flat paint
> im ok with eggshell on small ceilings but not large one
> its not that you see the joints
> you see the flash from the mud compare to the board
> got to look into those new primers some of yous talk about


Complete opposite story here, just finished a job to night that dealt with a Home owner

It was dark, and he was going around with a light checking out my work:furious:. Then at one point he stops, and ask "I hear there is something special you half to do to the walls to use high gloss paint, I hear you should use flat paint,,,,,right?????"

Something is wrong if the Home owners know more than the builders and painters:furious:


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## Mudbronco

*Ammo*



2buckcanuck said:


> happy reading, find your ammo
> 
> http://www.just-checkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/PDCA-Standards.pdf


Thanks for the ammo. Always good to use the paint specs against the painter.


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## boco

I also like to double prime them large ceilings. Its all about milage of paint. Give it a good spray and backroll with 1/2" nap roller. Wait 20 minutes then reshoot entire ceilng without a backroll. It wont be a finish look but its a good way to save time and add milage. Just be carefull to not put too much paint on angles. Also this is with optimal drying conditions fans and dehumidifier. Wait as long as possible (at least 24 hours) to put on another coat. For finish coat make sure to jack up the pressure on sprayer and give it a good even coat of finish paint. Most flats cover about 400 sqft per gallon. When spraying and backrolloing you should only be getting around 275-325 sqft per gallon. Put in on thick and give a good backroll while always keeping a wet edge..


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## Toolnut

boco said:


> I also like to double prime them large ceilings. Its all about milage of paint. Give it a good spray and backroll with 1/2" nap roller. Wait 20 minutes then reshoot entire ceilng without a backroll. It wont be a finish look but its a good way to save time and add milage. Just be carefull to not put too much paint on angles. Also this is with optimal drying conditions fans and dehumidifier. Wait as long as possible (at least 24 hours) to put on another coat. For finish coat make sure to jack up the pressure on sprayer and give it a good even coat of finish paint. Most flats cover about 400 sqft per gallon. When spraying and backrolloing you should only be getting around 275-325 sqft per gallon. Put in on thick and give a good backroll while always keeping a wet edge..


Give the hi build primers a try should only need 1 coat.


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## Workaholic

Mudbronco said:


> We just finished a smooth ceiling project. Can't see any seams, butts or nails spots, but the sun shines off the snow covered ground and you can see sanding marks and uneven paint. Trying to explain to the builder that the painter needs a good primer, light check, sand then two coats of the best paint. Not having much luck. Any other suggestions from our very smart and experienced audience? We do hand sand ceilings - no power sanding. Drywall is all new. Thanks.


Sanding marks is on you, paint would be on the painter. 

If you did your job and the painter did his there should not be a problem. If it was NC, I would put a coat of primer and topcoat on it with a back roll on each coat. Natural lighting is a wild card. I would only expect flat on ceilings so sheen would not be a problem and it essentially comes down to the drywall guy and the painter. Again sanding marks are the drywall guys problem. Painter had nothing to do with sanding the drywall, if it is a paint problem such as roller marks, or inefficient coats then it is a paint problem. Either way the blame game should be easy to determine. 

Got a pic?


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## icerock drywall

Mudbronco said:


> We just finished a smooth ceiling project. Can't see any seams, butts or nails spots, but the sun shines off the snow covered ground and you can see sanding marks and uneven paint. Trying to explain to the builder that the painter needs a good primer, light check, sand then two coats of the best paint. Not having much luck. Any other suggestions from our very smart and experienced audience? We do hand sand ceilings - no power sanding. Drywall is all new. Thanks.


you dont sand it by hand next time:thumbup:


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## Mudbronco

You are correct. Sand marks are on us. A primer will hide most scratch marks. 

I did find out from the builder that the ceilings where painted two coats same day with no primer, no sanding between coats. 

That will not work as you know. He is redoing all the ceilings now with primer and two coats of paint (again).


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## SlimPickins

Mudbronco said:


> I did find out from the builder that the ceilings where painted two coats same day with no primer, no sanding between coats.


:furious: Sunzabichez :furious:


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## Workaholic

Mudbronco said:


> You are correct. Sand marks are on us. A primer will hide most scratch marks.
> 
> I did find out from the builder that the ceilings where painted two coats same day with no primer, no sanding between coats.
> 
> That will not work as you know. He is redoing all the ceilings now with primer and two coats of paint (again).


Sounds like the source of the problem was identified. 

A double primer coat really helps out in large spaces with a lot of natural light.


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## betterdrywall

oh my ... all it takes is a good coat of primer, primer I use is real sandable primer and goes on 8 mills wet thickness per coat just like primer/mud mix 37 bucks a 5gal


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