# Just got a big job: Time to buy big boy tools.



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

I'll post some pictures once it get's here, not sure when tracking isn't available yet.
-
Just in case anyone thinks this is a mildly bad buy, I have an 11,000 drywall sheet job to do, it was originally negotiated for level 3, an easy fast run (long run?). So we have about 900 sheets hanged and start to tape the first day. Half way through the day we're told it's level 4. I tell everyone to pack up that we're leaving and the gm freaks out starts making calls. Told them the price wasn't right for level 4 and negotiations went very well. We have a great reputation and we're more than willing to buy the latest equipment for that bit of speed.
-
I haven't' seen a good video of how these work at a job site. Sure there are some that show how the tools does it's job a bit they they're usually low quality, I'm thinking of making a small video while we learn to use it.
-
http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/Continuous-Flow-Taping-Tools/
I bought the complete set but even that is still kind of lacking. It's missing a second another hose, another set of everything really other than a second pump.


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

A couple thoughts: If 50' of hose is all you got, that seems limiting on a big job. A local hydraulic hose maker might be able to make you up 50-100' more for maybe an affordable enough price(?)

If the pump can supply 1 1/2 U.S. gallon/min. max, is that enough to supply 2 tools when they're putting out? When they're taping, boxing? Maybe you already know that answer.

Look forward to any video you might post.


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

JustMe said:


> A couple thoughts: If 50' of hose is all you got, that seems limiting on a big job. A local hydraulic hose maker might be able to make you up 50-100' more for maybe an affordable enough price(?)
> 
> If the pump can supply 1 1/2 U.S. gallon/min. max, is that enough to supply 2 tools when they're putting out? When they're taping, boxing? Maybe you already know that answer.
> 
> Look forward to any video you might post.


The hose idea sounds fantastic, that little piece of advice might literally save hundreds of dollars down the line. If that works out yes it really will, unfortunately the hose has a special tool less coupling that connects with everything else. I'll have to do some research about the kind of hose it is, see if i can buy replacement coupling and if they can be installed easily. Defiantly worth it if I can avoid buying 600 dollar hoses.
-
This job was not bidden on in a traditional sense. The company doing this had their most reliable drywall sub contractors place a private bid. I know for a fact that our bid was much higher than the competition but we were chosen based on our previous job history and reliability. After nearly walking off after they changed to level 4 from 3 after we started the job, we negotiated a lucrative price for level 4. It was originally negotiated for level 3, an easy fast run (long run?). Let me tell you what happened, we have about 900 sheets hanged and start to tape the first day. Half way through the day we're told it's level 4. I tell everyone to pack up that we're leaving and the gm freaks out starts making calls. Told them the price wasn't right for level 4 and negotiations went very well. We have a great reputation and we're more than willing to buy the latest equipment for that bit of competitive speed.
-
I have three Graco pumps not counting this one so I have some experience with flow rates. I have an older Graco GM 10000 that pumps out 2.5gpm I'll have that running and it'll go through about 60 -20, +30 buckets spraying level 5 a day depending on how the day goes. That one is Gas and I defiantly don't' recommend running inside a closed space. 
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D20dup6yjU
-
I have a smaller electric pump from Graco that really can't match up to the larger gas pumps but it can be used in closed spaces with no ventilation like in apartment / condo skyscraper buildings. No video of the small one.
-
I have a graco HTX 2030 that's basically replaced my old Graco GM 10000 as it's very old and replacement parts are impossible for a person to find and you have to go through a pump repair company like Sherwin-Williams and pay large hourly repair fees.
-
Maybe I can find a video of the broken GM 10000, the pistons often overheated and caused the gaskets to very slowly melt over time. If the gaskets were not repaired, 200-500 dollar repairs depending on how damaged they each are per piston. If left alone for to long the piston would be damaged costing another 1200 + in parts alone not counting labor and storage time. If that was ignored somehow through magic and two blind eyes the other piston could be damaged doubling the repair cost.
-
_Edit: I don't think I'll have time to download my video from a cloud service, upload, and edit a video before post edit time expires. Maybe in another post but I don't want to double post.
-
Just in time.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlJxc9CCWVI
-
_


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

I have a 50 ft hose and would not buy bigger as it works the pump and motor harder, try running one system for hours for me to move my pump , breaks it up, but hey each to his own


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> I have a 50 ft hose and would not buy bigger as it works the pump and motor harder, try running one system for hours for me to move my pump , breaks it up, but hey each to his own


Are talking about a Continuous Flow Pump like that Ames graco? Or a Graco pump for spraying level 5? I have 200 feet on my gm 10000 pumps and it run alright. I split the 2 100 foot hoses in half if I need to run two lines, I don't usually have two guys spray. The gtx is a whole different beast with different lines and tips all together. So max I do is 200 feet on the gas sprayers. If you mean the Ames graco do you use one hose only? Why not two guys one running the box one on the corners? Small electric pumps definitely can't handle much line but two 50 foot hoses should do well enough on this Ames graco. Using the cell phone now my bad on any errors


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Shelwyn said:


> The hose idea sounds fantastic, that little piece of advice might literally save hundreds of dollars down the line. If that works out yes it really will, unfortunately the hose has a special tool less coupling that connects with everything else. I'll have to do some research about the kind of hose it is, see if i can buy replacement coupling and if they can be installed easily. Defiantly worth it if I can avoid buying 600 dollar hoses.
> 
> I have three Graco pumps not counting this one so I have some experience with flow rates. I have an older Graco GM 10000 that pumps out 2.5gpm I'll have that running and it'll go through about 60 -20, +30 buckets spraying level 5 a day depending on how the day goes. That one is Gas and I defiantly don't' recommend running inside a closed space.


 I told the hose making thought before on here, to someone looking to replace a hose on I think a Graco system. I think it worked out for them, at a lot less $. But they Might have used some old fittings from the Graco hose they were replacing. Or maybe they didn't have to. 

The video on your new system says up to 150' from the pump - 3 50' 1/2" hose pieces, from what I'm understanding. But if you want to ease up on the pump, you could maybe look at stepping up to something like 5/8" and use your existing 1/2" as a 'whip' up at the tool. Upsizing like that should decrease flow restriction pretty good and allow for more length, more tools being run, if wanted.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Congratulations on the big job. You know they're big when the board is delivered by multiple Semi trucks straight from the plant. In the Winter you can lay on the stacks and they're still warm from the ovens.
Good luck on the finishing too. Did your original proposal state level 3?


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

MrWillys said:


> Congratulations on the big job. You know they're big when the board is delivered by multiple Semi trucks straight from the plant. In the Winter you can lay on the stacks and they're still warm from the ovens.
> Good luck on the finishing too. Did your original proposal state level 3?


Yes it was originally level 3, we've worked with the company for almost 15 years now, I know they weren't trying to pull a fast one and the owners must have changed their mind some time between when we started and then. Even so level four is going to take more time than we originally estimated.
-
@JustMe I'm not sure changing hose size is the beat move, I'll have to make a few calls to find out more.


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Shelwyn said:


> @JustMe I'm not sure changing hose size is the beat move, I'll have to make a few calls to find out more.


 There can be a lot of difference in the pressure required at the pump and the hose lengths you can run, when you change hose sizes. Especially for something thick like mud. Been there, done that with some testing I was doing on prototypes. Have done it with other system types as well, where you're moving liquid volume through 100s of hose feet. Upsizing the hose might be the only solution you'll have to get what you ultimately would like from the system, and maybe without blowing it up too soon because of maxing it out so much. But call around and post what you find out. If someone has a different/better answer, I'd love to hear it - maybe use it on some of the systems I've been building.


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

I just realized I forgot my free time shirt. Dang how's that always slip my mind.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Shelwyn said:


> Are talking about a Continuous Flow Pump like that Ames graco? Or a Graco pump for spraying level 5? I have 200 feet on my gm 10000 pumps and it run alright. I split the 2 100 foot hoses in half if I need to run two lines, I don't usually have two guys spray. The gtx is a whole different beast with different lines and tips all together. So max I do is 200 feet on the gas sprayers. If you mean the Ames graco do you use one hose only? Why not two guys one running the box one on the corners? Small electric pumps definitely can't handle much line but two 50 foot hoses should do well enough on this Ames graco. Using the cell phone now my bad on any errors


Valid, I run sprayer Electric and I do not do tie inns at all with the system. running box and angle same time in not what I do...maybe a swing back when flats set could be cool,

I do not get big jobs cause other tapers get jealous when I show up with Heavy Metal and cause shyt so I get worn, now I have a Lawyer in place,







goofs can pay for my stress leave,







lotsa goofs out there let me tell ya


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Valid, I run sprayer Electric and I do not do tie inns at all with the system. running box and angle same time in not what I do...maybe a swing back when flats set could be cool,
> 
> I do not get big jobs cause other tapers get jealous when I show up with Heavy Metal and cause shyt so I get worn, now I have a Lawyer in place,
> 
> ...


Yeah getting asked how much X costs and how we paid for it etc is annoying. I just ignore the chumps and make sure we take everything expensive home if we get a bad vibe.


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

All wall didn't have the 10 inch box or the bazooka in stock so they're being sent directly from tapetech. They get here Monday or Tuesday, or so I'm told. I'm fairly disappointed I can't use this tomorrow. I'm running the ten inch all day tomorrow guess I'll have to go old school and use the pump. I should have bought the tool filling kit and just used this as my pump all day for glorious speed (8 seconds saved?).
-
Maybe I'll take it anyway fill it with mud and use the corner/bazooka handle as a filling tool. Just kidding but damn it's like having a new toy.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Shelwyn said:


> All wall didn't have the 10 inch box or the bazooka in stock so they're being sent directly from tapetech. They get here Monday or Tuesday, or so I'm told. I'm fairly disappointed I can't use this tomorrow. I'm running the ten inch all day tomorrow guess I'll have to go old school and use the pump. I should have bought the tool filling kit and just used this as my pump all day for glorious speed (8 seconds saved?).
> -
> Maybe I'll take it anyway fill it with mud and use the corner/bazooka handle as a filling tool. Just kidding but damn it's like having a new toy.


ok I am moving seen how we just became friends and friends partner up


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> ok I am moving seen how we just became friends and friends partner up


Oh man the tools are a lot heavier than the normal auto tape tools. It's going to take a while to get used to these controls on the box.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Shelwyn said:


> Oh man the tools are a lot heavier than the normal auto tape tools. It's going to take a while to get used to these controls on the box.


Do any of you guys really think being tied to a hose really saves time over a pump? I always thought it was a gimmick to sell more tools like the collated screwgun.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

MrWillys said:


> Do any of you guys really think being tied to a hose really saves time over a pump? I always thought it was a gimmick to sell more tools like the collated screwgun.


Oh my!! So I guess you and your egg hole maker Is faster than the collated screw Gun? :laughing:


----------



## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

MrWillys said:


> Do any of you guys really think being tied to a hose really saves time over a pump? I always thought it was a gimmick to sell more tools like the collated screwgun.



The collated screwgun is no gimmick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLXiN7HAZho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rXeLD709Lk


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Shelwyn said:


> Oh man the tools are a lot heavier than the normal auto tape tools. It's going to take a while to get used to these controls on the box.


did I not say heavy metal


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Shelwyn said:


> Oh man the tools are a lot heavier than the normal auto tape tools. It's going to take a while to get used to these controls on the box.


Reminds me of an Einstein quote: "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."

But it usually gets harder to justify charging big $ when you go in the opposite direction. Harder to impress people with (elegant) simplicity. People seem to usually admire complexity. Till you have to really produce with it.


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

I was at work and didn't think it through, the boxes are the only tools I found heavy. The tool was stiff I could barely get mat out of it manually, the I realized I forgot to take off the springs like an idiot. Oh man these are some heavy duty, powerful springs. It made a world of difference I have no idea why i didn't take them off first thing. I played with the 12 inch box for an hour before I got to work that first day so yes the hose + metal rod filled with mat + 12 inch box is heavy. It's not unusable or a deal breaker, the trade for speed is worth it. 

I need to at least double the amount of hose I have on that system. 50 feet is very little, I'm not sure why I didn't order more hose. Ooh right 600 dollars for 50 feet hahaha crap i can't believe I ordered more hose ****s sake I really wanted to follow through with the tip i got at the start of the thread. This is a huge point the machine is heavy, the guy who delivered it said they put it at 320 pounds with pallet weight so it hard to move. You need two people to move the machine any reasonable length. 
-
The boxes are heavy as hell compared to the normal auto tool alternatives. The trade off is you don't stop running the box. They aren't that heavy I was just expecting them to be light and I was put off at how heavy they were until I noticed how much mat I'd gone through and how fast it was
-
Everything else is light oh man the bazooka is incredibe. I ordered double length taping paper because of how much time we wasted changing to new rolls. 
-
The cornering tool is very, very light compared to traditional auto. You keep running and put absolutely no strain on yourself. You finish so quickly not going to the pump to fill up again, it's this way for every tool but this one takes the cake wow. 
-
As for the bazooka it's obviously faster than the traditional bazooka, how much faster I have no idea, getting used to the controls is going to take at least a week, we need to learn flow rates on these tools, for now its but we havent seen how much gaster it can go. Biggest thing we noticed is how fast it goes through tape, we ordered double length rolls to make up for it. Huge plus.
-
You need to adjust the flow rates on the machine. I ended up running it full blast and made a huge mess my first few lines running the box. I'm still learning the percentage to put the thing at for every tool.


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Shelwyn said:


> I was at work and.......


Good feedback.

Like I told the CEO of TapeTech (Ames and TapeTech are both owned by same company, last I checked), some of their tool concepts are good - like 'power assist' - but the ideas they come up with to deliver on those concepts generally suck.


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

JustMe said:


> Good feedback.
> 
> Like I told the CEO of TapeTech (Ames and TapeTech are both owned by same company, last I checked), some of their tool concepts are good - like 'power assist' - but the ideas they come up with to deliver on those concepts generally suck.


-
There's a local Ames but all I buy from them are emergency supplies, one time two of my porter cable 7800's suffered a horrible break down the same week and I ended up buying a third from them. (home depot didn't' have any for rent at the time). Sometimes I buy mud pans from them as they have the nice welded ones so you can just clean them easily. Same story with dura stilt parts emergency only.
-
I use tape tech auto tools but I always assumed other brands were just as good. I know a team that uses Columbia and is happy with them. One of my workers from a few years ago that left to start his own team bought a level 5 set, the cheaper cost let him get started on his own. It's alright from what I can tell.
-
I don't have a very strong opinion on ames or tape tech I've never had a particularly good or bad experience with either.
-
Who I do have a strong opinion on is Graco the company who makes the actual pump. I've had great experiences with them. A continuous flow pump wasn't even on my radar until I saw they made a dedicated pump for it. I trust graco not to put their name on an inferior product and that's most of the reason I bought this pump. That and youtube videos.


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Shelwyn said:


> I don't have a very strong opinion on ames or tape tech. Who I do have a strong opinion on is Graco the company who makes the actual pump. I've had great experiences with them. A continuous flow pump wasn't even on my radar until I saw they made a dedicated pump for it. I trust graco not to put their name on an inferior product and that's most of the reason I bought this pump. That and youtube videos.


A thought for you is to stay with a Graco pump system that there's parts and backup systems readily available, as well as one that isn't hard to handle. Like Terry is doing with his Apla setup, using a Graco pump.


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Shelwyn said:


> I don't have a very strong opinion on ames or tape tech I've never had a particularly good or bad experience with either.


I have some older TT auto tools and some newer ones. The older ones are quality, the newer ones aren't, and not when compared to what else is now out there and for how much.


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

JustMe said:


> I have some older TT auto tools and some newer ones. The older ones are quality, the newer ones aren't, and not when compared to what else is now out there and for how much.


I have an older tape tech set as well, one of my workers has been buying his own tape tech set for a while and he's been bringing them in for a few months. I always thought he was getting cheaper versions so he could get started on his own sooner, if your right they have gone down in quality.
-
Hey check this out
http://www.graco.com/us/en/products/materials/textures/drywall-mud.html
If your looking for a gas graco pump to spray on level 5 get the HTX 2030 complete plus. Just like Terry that owns the apla set I own a TexSpray Mark V. I went with the ProContractor version since it warps the hose for you. It's a pleasure to use since the clean up at the end of the day is so simple hah.

I know they sell convertible versions as well, you can switch between electric and gas but they're hydraulic pumps. I know a few painters that own hydraulic pumps and they all tell me the same thing, fixing the piston on hydraulic pumps costs four thousands dollars. That's way to much for to consider when they have perfectly normal pumps that don't cost as much to fix.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

moore said:


> Oh my!! So I guess you and your egg hole maker Is faster than the collated screw Gun? :laughing:





gazman said:


> The collated screwgun is no gimmick.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLXiN7HAZho
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rXeLD709Lk


 Sorry, but these guys in the video are slow. 2 guys heading board with drytites is every bit as fast. Each board gets tacked and nailed from the ends in racing to the middle. Lifts were never used and are a waste of time, because our board is shorter. We'd pull an 88 12 footer house and be done in 5 hours including the 7 sheet garage firewall. Beat that with all your automatic stuff with setup and maintenance. I've said it before I'll never believe screwguns are faster, because you can only go as fast as you can finger them. Automatics slow down when changing clips and the other guy is still fingering. We never had power on the job when I was young either.
My original question though still stands. Do you guys really think with being tied to a hose with added time for setup and cleanup is really a time saver?


----------



## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Come on Mr Willys I have the greatest respect for you but on this you are wrong. There is no better way for two blokes to put up a 20 foot sheet. I thought you were all about osha, 
#1 The lift does the hard work. 
#2 My feet didn't have to leave the ground. 
#3 Show me a video of someone fingering and nailing 100 nails quicker than that. And remember that gun will screw that fast ALL DAY EVERY DAY. 
#4 I am old enough to remember nailing board, I did it for over 20 years. And I would never go back.


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

MrWillys said:


> My original question though still stands. Do you guys really think with being tied to a hose with added time for setup and cleanup is really a time saver?


 Depends on the job, the system you're using, and how good you are with it. Those are 3 factors that come to mind.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

All due respect, lets call it a draw. 
That collated gun won't screw the corners in the US. I have a senco and it's useless because it can't handle the little bit of inside nailers we often get. 
Me and my partner would smoke you guys on a 16' lid sheet with no cut outs stepping up on milk crates doing 8' high work.
It doesn't help that your helper waits for you to tack his end of the sheet before he gets to screwing.


----------



## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> That collated gun won't screw the corners in the US.


And why's that? For me looks like operator error


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

gazman said:


> Come on Mr Willys I have the greatest respect for you but on this you are wrong. There is no better way for two blokes to put up a 20 foot sheet. I thought you were all about osha,
> #1 The lift does the hard work.
> #2 My feet didn't have to leave the ground.
> #3 Show me a video of someone fingering and nailing 100 nails quicker than that. And remember that gun will screw that fast ALL DAY EVERY DAY.
> #4 I am old enough to remember nailing board, I did it for over 20 years. And I would never go back.


I have respect for you also Gaz and with the long boards you are using it works for you. I've always said it doesn't really matter how you do it, just get it done. You also have to remember when I started hanging board it was all we did day in and day out getting paid by the sq ft. It was 6 or 7 cents a foot back then. I wouldn't want to go back to nailing everything, but the look on the other guys (only do commercial mainly) faces when I starting nailing on cornerbead was priceless.
Back in the early 80's when I was learning how to do suspended ceilings I worked with this old man that used a hand crank screw jig to drive in the lags and tye the wires. He was really just as fast as I was and didn't have to pull a cord with him. I teased him thinking how smart I was, but in reality I wasn't. I guess I'm now that same old man!
BTW, I didn't know that was you. As for OSHA, that is just knowledge gained when I was an apprenticeship instructor.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

keke said:


> And why's that? For me looks like operator error


Here are some pics. I have the gun set to the deepest screw depth possible. Nailers under 5/8" (or around 15mm)are a no go the bit doesn't even touch the wall. Your expert advice is welcome.


----------



## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Ha ha 
What' s wrong with 25 mm


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

keke said:


> Ha ha
> What' s wrong with 25 mm


That's a good question. When I learned to wood frame in the late 1980's one of the first things I did as an apprentice was make posts and t's. All inside nailers were 1 1/2 " (38mm). Not any more, a lot of nailers are scrap wood pieces. 
Quality is down, everything is disposable, everyone wants to maximize profit and blow thru work with as little effort as possible.
It's a shame for a dinosaur like me who was taught better than that.
I hope that mentality doesn't make it to your shores.


----------



## mld (Jul 2, 2012)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> That's a good question. When I learned to wood frame in the late 1980's one of the first things I did as an apprentice was make posts and t's. All inside nailers were 1 1/2 " (38mm). Not any more, a lot of nailers are scrap wood pieces.
> Quality is down, everything is disposable, everyone wants to maximize profit and blow thru work with as little effort as possible.
> It's a shame for a dinosaur like me who was taught better than that.
> I hope that mentality doesn't make it to your shores.


You mean to tell me you don't like the left over ½"osb backers???


----------



## sheep (May 11, 2015)

The makita screw gun is better at getting into tight internal studs imo. A lot of the time, because of the angle, you would have to sink the last bit of the screw by hand. But I'd say the makita does a good job of getting at 90% of internal studs. And yes, I have used both guns. As for collated guns being slower, I really think you have to give them a go to get fast with them. I would out nail a fresh collated gun user. And I do not consider myself the fastest nailer, just average. When I was hanging sheet, the 2 of us would put up 6m sheets with no lifter. it's fast, but it isn't great on the body. 3 guys with no lifter and collated guns is ideal imo.


----------



## Wellst95 (Apr 17, 2019)

Congratulations on a lot of work! You are true masters.


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

I can't believe the price actually went up instead of down haha.


Anyway now that I've head it for year I've got to say, really worth it. Just have a crew of 3 or more and you should break even fairly quick.


Boxes are heavy but they're faster just mix the mud so it's not too hard and remove the springs.


Angle head is very fast but try not to have the pressure be too high, it's so fast you won't notice that too much mud is on the angle so take care.


Bazooka is super fast buy 500 rolls of tape instead of 250 so you don't constantly change rolls.


Spraying level 5 is easy but the instruction manual doesn't tell you how to get it to that mode of sorting instead of rf signals.


----------

