# Mud producing scratches?



## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

So my sander asked me if something was in the mud cause every once in awhile when poleing as the surface breaks scratches appear. He can sponge them out but WTF? We tried different paper,poles. Just to be clear we used filmback 220 paper, wetdry 240 (blue stuff). Even the sponge fine side produced a few but with a couple pass disappeared. He said it has happened before and he just thought I picked something up in the mud. BUT the finish is tight no scratches, smooooth.I hate crap in the mud and always pull out chunks. But this is much finer grains that do sand out. I'm using Synko lite finish (green box) for polish coat. Anyone know whats up?


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

I think the scratches will cover up when you paint, the roller will create a texture and thus the scratches will be gone.


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## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

Nope not for the custom houses I'm doing. The trend is dark colors paint ceilings. This really isn't about what will pass it's more about why? or what is causing it. I can assure the quality, 15 years of custom homes finishing and my sander has been with me for about 10 of those years.


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## akcajun (Dec 16, 2009)

i hate dark colors..did my first one...one room without primer one with.....so much difference...i hand sanded for the finsh coat to make sure of scratches and skim coated everything due to smooth wall...a deep cherry red and a brown ceiling.... the other room was purple and green...


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

Never noticed anything with Green Synko lately. Have you tried a different mud like Lite-Line or Classic?

Is there a lot of natural light being let in that you're able to see them more than at other jobs?

You know as well as I do that Synko Green is REALLY soft, so I just wonder if the current batch has gotten softer lately....hence my preference being Classic Finish or ProRoc Green.


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## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

I was using classic finish for years, then it started to pock or fish eye on me. It was weird I'd mix up get about 3/4 through the bucket and fish eye. I would have to keep mixing and mixing, boxing was 3 passes to get it smooth. Now I use green and no problems smoooth. I talked to other tapers here and they think bad batch. I only make sense that when it dries it's doing it.
As for ProRoc Green I haven't tried, sander doesn't like it.


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

LoL sander doesn't like it. ProRoc has gotten softer lately. Not ridiculous like Green IMO, but it's a little harder than Lite-Line, and a little softer than Classic. Sure, you use more paper, but then you don't have to worry about using 240. 180 is best.


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## synkoslim (Mar 23, 2010)

*i can help*



mudslingercor said:


> So my sander asked me if something was in the mud cause every once in awhile when poleing as the surface breaks scratches appear. He can sponge them out but WTF? We tried different paper,poles. Just to be clear we used filmback 220 paper, wetdry 240 (blue stuff). Even the sponge fine side produced a few but with a couple pass disappeared. He said it has happened before and he just thought I picked something up in the mud. BUT the finish is tight no scratches, smooooth.I hate crap in the mud and always pull out chunks. But this is much finer grains that do sand out. I'm using Synko lite finish (green box) for polish coat. Anyone know whats up?


I am the CGC rep for southern Alberta and would like to help out. Please call our customer service at 1 800 242 4418 and ask for Tim in Calgary.


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## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

I just talked to the sander and no problems on the next job so I figure it was just a bad batch of mud.


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

* I live in AL-BURRR-DAH!*


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## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

Yes I live in AlBurrdah the place where every one from B.C or "BRING CASH" come to get work in between cropping the herb.


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## Hiball drywall (Jan 11, 2008)

:laughing: :cowboy:


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## Hiball drywall (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes I live in AlBurrdah the place where every one from B.C or "BRING CASH" come to get work in between cropping the herb. 


:cowboy: :laughing:


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## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

Scratches are back. It's happening all over the city. Recoats galore. My sander is trying to narrow down the problem, mud or the sandpaper. I'll report back with more info.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

mudslingercor said:


> Scratches are back. It's happening all over the city. Recoats galore. My sander is trying to narrow down the problem, mud or the sandpaper. I'll report back with more info.


I see this occasionally down here, and I thought it was just a piece of sand breaking free from the paper. Although sometimes I find tiny rocks embedded in the mud. And I'm not one of those guys that stands on the bucket when he spins it up :laughing:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

I fight the scratches , like i fight the pocs.
It's in the mud. usggreen top/ng pro form are the worst .
A phase 5 is a b!tch! 
Usg plus3 on the skim works well. very ,very few scratches. a shade darker
in color thou. sanding in between coats makes the problem worse. 
I've ordered some no poc, maybe it will help with the scratches too.
this was never a problem 8-10 years ago. they took all the bad stuff out
of the compound [ go green] now it's crap! :furious:there getting to the bottom of the quarry ? I see those little rocks too slim.


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## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

moore stop fighting it,get usg midweight:thumbsup:
Green for 1st coat, then all mid weight there after.:yes:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Final touch drywall said:


> moore stop fighting it,get usg midweight:thumbsup:
> Green for 1st coat, then all mid weight there after.:yes:


red top?:blink:


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## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

Purple top.It says midweight right on it.I guess they don't have it in Virginia??
Yrs ago we started mixing the blue & green together.They finally made it easier for us.


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## Jason (Feb 27, 2011)

Scratching worse on one side of the joint? Sanding back to a prior coat can show a slight lip/scratchiness. Getting it on the high side of offset flats or noticed any edging with your 1st box?

Incidentally, I can't believe you have a guy who has made his living for 10+ years as a full time sander and you never let the poor bastard so much as spot a screw. Longest apprenticeship I ever heard of!


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Jason said:


> Scratching worse on one side of the joint? Sanding back to a prior coat can show a slight lip/scratchiness. Getting it on the high side of offset flats or noticed any edging with your 1st box?
> 
> Incidentally, I can't believe you have a guy who has made his living for 10+ years as a full time sander and you never let the poor bastard so much as spot a screw. Longest apprenticeship I ever heard of!


Not the same problem mate, but that was a funny post.
maybe it takes some a little longer to catch on. 10 years too long!


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

very interesting, especially about mixing the blue/green lid together.


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## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

synco slim came to get the batch # today. Not sure how they are going to deal with the problem. Ive already switched to synco classic finish for coating. So far it seems to be the green synco finish that is causing the problems. This sucks people lose there jobs over stuff like this, sander or taper who sands gets the blame for problem mud. Last problem I had was a drywall over bake and the butt ends pealed back. Rep came out saw it said sorry, told me how it happens then paid the bill for me to fix it. Hmmm I wonder how CGC will deal with the recoating of full houses! No pressure Slim

As for a working day after day sanding, I don't know how they do it either. I have nothing to do with his career choice he's a sub running a business sanding.


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## ProbeGT (Mar 23, 2011)

This happened to us last summer. It happened a few times since I do this job. It's defenetly the mud. We also tried different papers, screen, foams etc. There are tiny rocks in the mud that dislocate when you sand and get stuck between the paper and the wall. causing scratches all over the place.

Last time it happened we had to sand the house twice. When this happens, sand normally, then re-sand but let the pole glide, don't put any force or weight on it. It should get rid of the scratches and not dislodge more rocks.

I think it's a mining problem and the company mining the mica get some rocks grinded with it. It happened with CGC's machine mud. It happens about once a year or 2, maybe because they're getting near the end of the mine? I don't know...


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## ProbeGT (Mar 23, 2011)

mudslingercor said:


> Last problem I had was a drywall over bake and the butt ends pealed back. Rep came out saw it said sorry, told me how it happens then paid the bill for me to fix it.


This also happens a lot on CGC's 1/2 regular board, Factory 024 *Montreal* This is the worst drywall factory ever. Tapers are not regular, boards are fragile and company tapers are always broken because the board is too fragile, corners are always broken (again, too fragile) and the tape on the butt joints peal very often, specially when it get good humidity and when the butt joint takes a good day or 2 to dry. Called CGC for years about this and the only thing they have to say about that is "We've got 85% of market shares, it mustn't be that bad!"... 

The 066 boards (ontario) are very nice and perfect.


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## betterdrywall (May 4, 2010)

I'll put my suppliers material including primer and L5 coat up against any material made in USA Europe or Canada and even in sheep land .. or where ever the hell you live. I use the BEST! bar non.. up yours USG and National! sorry I forgot to add Murco sucks donkey wee-wee's,, pleased don't let your kids read this Murco.. try and bring them up normal OK???


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

betterdrywall said:


> I'll put my suppliers material including primer and L5 coat up against any material made in USA Europe or Canada and even in sheep land .. or where ever the hell you live. I use the BEST! bar non.. up yours USG and National! sorry I forgot to add Murco sucks donkey wee-wee's,, pleased don't let your kids read this Murco.. try and bring them up normal OK???


I'll be in Oklahoma tomorrow,,,, To pick up all my supplies! :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

betterdrywall said:


> I'll put my suppliers material including primer and L5 coat up against any material made in USA Europe or Canada and even in sheep land .. or where ever the hell you live. I use the BEST! bar non.. up yours USG and National! sorry I forgot to add Murco sucks donkey wee-wee's,, pleased don't let your kids read this Murco.. try and bring them up normal OK???


So good your gona keep the name all to your self. hmmm. or is it just called the "BEST!" :huh:


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

yeah WTF:blink:


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## betterdrywall (May 4, 2010)

Sorry ,, here is the link if your serious. and I promise no more tears.. high quality and very consistent. http://freemandrywall.com/


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

mudslingercor said:


> So my sander asked me if something was in the mud cause every once in awhile when poleing as the surface breaks scratches appear. He can sponge them out but WTF? We tried different paper,poles. Just to be clear we used filmback 220 paper, wetdry 240 (blue stuff). Even the sponge fine side produced a few but with a couple pass disappeared. He said it has happened before and he just thought I picked something up in the mud. BUT the finish is tight no scratches, smooooth.I hate crap in the mud and always pull out chunks. But this is much finer grains that do sand out. I'm using Synko lite finish (green box) for polish coat. Anyone know whats up?


I did a bunch of 10' standups the other week with green Synko. They looked good enough that the field supervisor said things looked too good (ie. 'less quality needed, more quantity production wanted'). What I do when sanding is use a backless 120 grit sandpaper to get things flat enough, then use some Joest 180 to 'tweak' things. The Joest has a bit of a backing, enough to give its face flex enough to take out scratches left by the backless paper. And it feathers things out better than the backless paper, so I use it to do most of that as well.

Because the Joest paper also has holes in its face, grit can move through the holes and behind the paper face, before it does too much scratching damage.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

JustMe said:


> I did a bunch of 10' standups the other week with green Synko. They looked good enough that the field supervisor said things looked too good (ie. 'less quality needed, more quantity production wanted'). What I do when sanding is use a backless 120 grit sandpaper to get things flat enough, then use some Joest 180 to 'tweak' things. The Joest has a bit of a backing, enough to give its face flex enough to take out scratches left by the backless paper. And it feathers things out better than the backless paper, so I use it to do most of that as well.
> 
> Because the Joest paper also has holes in its face, grit can move through the holes and behind the paper face, before it does too much scratching damage.


the scratches are a problem way before the sanding . it's in the mud itself .:wallbash:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

moore said:


> the scratches are a problem way before the sanding . it's in the mud itself .:wallbash:


Maybe I did miss something. But he said his finish was smooth, so I took that as being there were no scratches till sanding.

If the scratches are being caused by grit in the mud, then moving that grit off the sander's face asap should help reduce scratching. It's one reason I like the Joest paper for final finishing.


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## The_Texture_Guy (Dec 31, 2010)

do you use a flashlight to check out the finishing? its a great trick and reveals all sorts of crap to make it easier to see.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

synkoslim said:


> I am the CGC rep for southern Alberta and would like to help out. Please call our customer service at 1 800 242 4418 and ask for Tim in Calgary.


Though I'm from Ontario, we have a problem
There's always little black stones that appear in the mud, same size, same colour etc....and yes we make sure to wipe bottom of the mud box before we mix, so it's not us. Mud also seems to be leaving too much porosity too. It's the CGC red I'm talking about.

Excellent to see a Rep on board:thumbup:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

mudslingercor said:


> So my sander asked me if something was in the mud cause every once in awhile when poleing as the surface breaks scratches appear. He can sponge them out but WTF? We tried different paper,poles. Just to be clear we used filmback 220 paper, wetdry 240 (blue stuff). Even the sponge fine side produced a few but with a couple pass disappeared. He said it has happened before and he just thought I picked something up in the mud. BUT the finish is tight no scratches, smooooth.I hate crap in the mud and always pull out chunks. But this is much finer grains that do sand out. I'm using Synko lite finish (green box) for polish coat. Anyone know whats up?


It's in the mud.
kindergarten stuff, tougher the mud, the stronger grit of sand paper you use. The softer the mud is, you use a finer grit. Your using 220 already and it's leaving lines.....so drop down a grade in your mud. quit using lite weight mud, IMO there's no need for it. Use a taping pacific mud for laying tape if you want, but after that find a all purpose that you can use on all stages after that.

OR......think silverstilts stated this before.........Say you got some tough all purpose, it runs good, coats good, sands ok.......but it's leaving too much porosity (honeycombs, wall eyes, fish eyes, pin holes, bubbles, divets, little holes etc....) just throw 2 or 3 scoops of lite weight mud with your all purpose, you may be magically surprised

And, if your like any typical taper, your work is the best work in the world:whistling2: so why do you need that lite weight mud. You should barely half to sand your work.

The hunt is still on fro that taper that dose not half to sand his work !!!!:blink:


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## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> It's in the mud.
> kindergarten stuff, tougher the mud, the stronger grit of sand paper you use. The softer the mud is, you use a finer grit. Your using 220 already and it's leaving lines.....so drop down a grade in your mud. quit using lite weight mud, IMO there's no need for it. Use a taping pacific mud for laying tape if you want, but after that find a all purpose that you can use on all stages after that.
> 
> OR......think silverstilts stated this before.........Say you got some tough all purpose, it runs good, coats good, sands ok.......but it's leaving too much porosity (honeycombs, wall eyes, fish eyes, pin holes, bubbles, divets, little holes etc....) just throw 2 or 3 scoops of lite weight mud with your all purpose, you may be magically surprised
> ...


Though i thank you for your imput I must say I do understand mud and how the different types work or should I say i've passed kindergarden. The mud I choose is partly for what my sander prefers. Yes you found the taper who dose not have to sand his work and it's been like that for 12 of the 16 years of taping custom homes. The problem is something in the mud and so far ProbeGT has had the most logical reason for it. This is NOT a issue from lack of experience. This is a manufacturing issue that you should all be aware of hence the post. This is also the second time this has happened the first entry to this post I did a year ago it only lasted 1 house. Now different tapers all over the city are having the scratches.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

mudslingercor said:


> Though i thank you for your imput I must say I do understand mud and how the different types work or should I say i've passed kindergarden. The mud I choose is partly for what my sander prefers. Yes you found the taper who dose not have to sand his work and it's been like that for 12 of the 16 years of taping custom homes. The problem is something in the mud and so far ProbeGT has had the most logical reason for it. This is NOT a issue from lack of experience. This is a manufacturing issue that you should all be aware of hence the post. This is also the second time this has happened the first entry to this post I did a year ago it only lasted 1 house. Now different tapers all over the city are having the scratches.


Actually, I know it sounds strange to some guys to have someone come in and sand after you. But I know guys who have worked out west. I heard some of those sanders are very fussy. If they don't like your work they won't touch it. Their just like having a painter come in after you. They see something they don't like, they will call you back.So you half to be good to get the sanders coming in after you, or you will half to sand it yourself.
Plus I hear you guys get paid the same sq ft as us in Ontario, but you don't half to sand........ that equals more $$$$$$$$..

And didn't mean to come down on you hard, I have been MIA a few days on DWT. and sped through the post. must of missed probeGT's post, will go look for it now


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

The greener the product. The worse it is.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> Actually, I know it sounds strange to some guys to have someone come in and sand after you. But I know guys who have worked out west. I heard some of those sanders are very fussy. If they don't like your work they won't touch it. Their just like having a painter come in after you. They see something they don't like, they will call you back.So you *half* to be good to get the sanders coming in after you, or you will *half* to sand it yourself.
> Plus I hear you guys get paid the same sq ft as us in Ontario, but you don't *half* to sand........ that equals more $$$$$$$$..
> 
> And didn't mean to come down on you hard, I have been MIA a few days on DWT. and sped through the post. must of missed probeGT's post, will go look for it now


It's *have*, d*mmit.

It's what you get for disappearing.


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