# Switching to papertape



## gam026 (Aug 14, 2011)

I live in Nova Scotia, Canada and have been taping for 25 years. Out here we use fiber tape on the walls and paper tape in the corners,(always been that way). Rarly do you see paper on the joints

I have been considering switching to paper tape on my joints, but trying to convince the GC's its better is like pulling teath:yes:. Any suggestions on how I can sell it to them. I know its a better system but they don't. Also what do you guys that use paper put on your bead. Here its vynal and fibre on top.


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Best decision you'll ever make in your life my friend!
Wanna convince your GC's?! Send em on DrywallTalk.com!
They'll get a tongue lashing from half the guys on here for allowing fiber tape within 100meters of their jobsite! :yes:

Dont get me wrong, it has its applications. But new construction? Brand new houses....I dont know man...
I dont put anything over my beads.
If we use Vinyl, just use the Trim-Tex spray adhesive and staples.
Specs don't call for taping the edges.
If you use paper beads, well there you go, you already have a paper flange. No sense in putting more tape on top right?! Makes sense to me! :yes: Good luck with the conversion! Best decision you'll ever make! You'll get allot of support from the guys on here. :thumbsup:


----------



## Philma Crevices (Jan 28, 2012)

We do both ways here:whistling2: some jobs paper, some mesh. For houses though... only thing I would put mesh on is metal/vinyl beads or blown out outlets. None of your previous projects crack out around windows/ doors?


----------



## gam026 (Aug 14, 2011)

Usually, we will have 2 to 4 cracked butts (around doors, windows and sometimes on cieling) before the owners move in. Some more on the year end. Its not the quality of our work cause we double fibre all our butts and its the same with every company and builder. 

The builders we drywall are puting up their houses in 4 months including foundation and were doing about 2 a week and ther going up wet so once the heat goes in its shrink city. How's the paper for cracks. And do u prefill the bevel, let it dry then tape? To me that would make a stronger seam. Call back for cracks is a pain and expensive cause we get the blame so that's why I'm looking for a change. 

Also, banjo or bazooka?


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

*fibafuse!!! *


----------



## Philma Crevices (Jan 28, 2012)

gam026 said:


> Usually, we will have 2 to 4 cracked butts (around doors, windows and sometimes on cieling) before the owners move in. Some more on the year end. Its not the quality of our work cause we double fibre all our butts and its the same with every company and builder.
> 
> The builders we drywall are puting up their houses in 4 months including foundation and were doing about 2 a week and ther going up wet so once the heat goes in its shrink city. How's the paper for cracks. And do u prefill the bevel, let it dry then tape? To me that would make a stronger seam. Call back for cracks is a pain and expensive cause we get the blame so that's why I'm looking for a change.
> 
> Also, banjo or bazooka?


Bevel wouldn't need a pre-fill unless major gaps/blown out rock. We find less cracking using paper than mesh especially around doors/windows. But with the schedule you said above, there's bound to be twisting in the studs I believe

Our process would be... butt's V'd out and prefilled with mud straight out of the box. Zooka or banjo butts first, wipe, run fields, wipe, then angles.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Not another paper-vs-mesh thread ?!? 


PAPER!!!!


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

gam026 said:


> Usually, we will have 2 to 4 cracked butts (around doors, windows and sometimes on cieling) before the owners move in. Some more on the year end. Its not the quality of our work cause we double fibre all our butts and its the same with every company and builder.
> 
> The builders we drywall are puting up their houses in 4 months including foundation and were doing about 2 a week and ther going up wet so once the heat goes in its shrink city. How's the paper for cracks. And do u prefill the bevel, let it dry then tape? To me that would make a stronger seam. Call back for cracks is a pain and expensive cause we get the blame so that's why I'm looking for a change.
> 
> Also, banjo or bazooka?


Well...It is kind of your fault..:whistling2:You've been useing mesh...:lol::jester:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

gam026 said:


> I live in Nova Scotia, Canada and have been taping for 25 years. Out here we use fiber tape on the walls and paper tape in the corners,(always been that way). Rarly do you see paper on the joints
> 
> I have been considering switching to paper tape on my joints, but trying to convince the GC's its better is like pulling teath:yes:. Any suggestions on how I can sell it to them. I know its a better system but they don't. Also what do you guys that use paper put on your bead. Here its vynal and fibre on top.


 Bullchit em! Tell them the reason for the 2 to 4 cracked butt joins is that the mesh just won't hold up..This may not be the truth ,,but If ya want to switch to paper you gotta feed em something.

I have never used fibafuse but kiwiman swears on it. that's good enough for me..I will order a few rolls to give it a try one day...but like I said BULLCHIT EM.. I just told some of my builders that I can't use the a/p compound they have been suppling me for my texture ceilings ..was a half lie..but it worked .. :thumbsup:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

OH come on FTD don't chicken out ...What's your take on this bro?


----------



## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Best decision you'll ever make in your life my friend!
> if that's the best decision he'll ever make he must be making some pretty bad decisions for anything related to taping drywall to be considered life altering:jester:


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

If the houses arent heated proper it doesnt matter what tape you use. Letting paper tape FULLY dry before coats and in betwwen is your best bet IMO. Using mesh means using hotmud in most situtions which leads to 2 coats in a day which isnt the best way to do houses


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

I'd cork everything up with a setting compound first, In new zealand we're required to leave a gap between sheets when they're fixed, forcing a setting compound into that gap locks the sheets together, I reckon you get half the strength of your join by doing that, and thats the deepest mud that goes into a join too, taping and filling are relatively thin coats.
But joins are best V'ed out , But if you prefill them all in one go they'll tend to pull off one side as the compound dries, so you're back where you started with an un v'ed join with a hairline crack. 
So on the first prefill use the corner of your knife to wipe a gentle "v" back into it, that allows the compound to shrink back as it dries onto the edges of the sheet and if it cracks it will be at the bottom of that V,then you fill it the rest of the way. Result is the V'ed out join is filled and the compound is bonded solidly to both sides of the join, and is ready for taping. I know its a lot of pissing about but if the compound doesnt stick solidly to both sides then theres really no reason to V them out in the first place, and there aren't many butt joints in a house anyway.


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

And another thing...I have my doubts are to whether Fibafuse is all its cracked up to be, excuse the pun,. don't get me wrong, its great stuff but stronger than paper? pfffttt!


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Stopper said:


> I'd cork everything up with a setting compound first, In new zealand we're required to leave a gap between sheets when they're fixed, forcing a setting compound into that gap locks the sheets together, I reckon you get half the strength of your join by doing that, and thats the deepest mud that goes into a join too, taping and filling are relatively thin coats.
> But joins are best V'ed out , But if you prefill them all in one go they'll tend to pull off one side as the compound dries, so you're back where you started with an un v'ed join with a hairline crack.
> So on the first prefill use the corner of your knife to wipe a gentle "v" back into it, that allows the compound to shrink back as it dries onto the edges of the sheet and if it cracks it will be at the bottom of that V,then you fill it the rest of the way. Result is the V'ed out join is filled and the compound is bonded solidly to both sides of the join, and is ready for taping. I know its a lot of pissing about but if the compound doesnt stick solidly to both sides then theres really no reason to V them out in the first place, and there aren't many butt joints in a house anyway.


 Throw a glob of setting compound on the field of the sheet..Then throw a glob of a/p on the field of a sheet..let dry... then see witch Is easiest to scrape off....The hot mudd will pop off the paper..The A/p will take the paper off the board..


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

moore said:


> Throw a glob of setting compound on the field of the sheet..Then throw a glob of a/p on the field of a sheet..let dry... then see witch Is easiest to scrape off....The hot mudd will pop off the paper..The A/p will take the paper off the board..


Our hot mud doesn't 

Not sure what you're getting at though???


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Stopper said:


> Our hot mud doesn't


They have great air dry muds, Ours arnt, We have great hotmuds, they dont. Same thing for austrailia.


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

cazna said:


> They have great air dry muds, Ours arnt, We have great hotmuds, they dont. Same thing for austrailia.


Thats right...but what I was getting at was that as mud dries in a v'd out butt joint it can sometime pull from one side leaving a hairline crack, and if it does that then you're back exactly where you started from, the whole point of V'ing a butt out is to get plaster onto both ends of the sheet and increase the surface area of the ends of the sheets. It was just a tip to make sure the mud stick to both sides. Moore was talking about mud that had dried on the surface of a sheet where its only shrinking back towards the board. You could prefill large gaps with Premixed mud but our muds aren't desinged for it, And my tip was for Hotmud.


----------



## Jason (Feb 27, 2011)

Stopper said:


> And another thing...I have my doubts are to whether Fibafuse is all its cracked up to be, excuse the pun,. don't get me wrong, its great stuff but stronger than paper? pfffttt!


Right on. I know we're not the phama industry or something but why don't these magic new products sales pitches ever come with supporting data? It would lay all these questions to rest. 

I'd take someone's product a lot more seriously if they'd show me some independently recorded results across varying temperature and humidity ranges using a variety of framing and different manufacturers boards, demonstrating repeated superior performance against mishaps from stretching, compressing, shearing, stepping, twisting, impact, etc. 

All we seem to get with new stuff is "Try it an you'll see." Sounds like some doofus operating out of his garage.


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

Stopper said:


> And another thing...I have my doubts are to whether Fibafuse is all its cracked up to be, excuse the pun,. don't get me wrong, its great stuff but stronger than paper? pfffttt!


Did you read where I wrote about a new house built for relocation that I taped with Fibafuse? long story short they relocated it and the board broke in quite a few places and the joins weren't affected at all, also Caz did his own experiments with it and showed it stronger than paper, I see Mitre10 have started retailing it to the general public for NZ$20 per roll .... holy rip off batman! we are only paying a bit over half that but hopefully as it gains momentum it might come down in price.


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Stopper said:


> Thats right...but what I was getting at was that as mud dries in a v'd out butt joint it can sometime pull from one side leaving a hairline crack, and if it does that then you're back exactly where you started from, the whole point of V'ing a butt out is to get plaster onto both ends of the sheet and increase the surface area of the ends of the sheets. It was just a tip to make sure the mud stick to both sides. Moore was talking about mud that had dried on the surface of a sheet where its only shrinking back towards the board. You could prefill large gaps with Premixed mud but our muds aren't desinged for it, And my tip was for Hotmud.


Good point, I never considered that, or noticed that before, But now you say it, Of course :blink: I get the feeling your good at your job, Like moore, with a messy state of a work wagon :yes:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Cazna is right. We have 20 or more brands of hot mud ..and only one or two are worth using..same with the wallboard ..more brands than you can shake a stick at ,,but only one or two are worth using..A/P muds change there mixes so often you don't know what you got till ya open the bucket ...:furious:


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

HEY!!! ...........We have a new debate.....Fuse vs paper


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Kiwiman said:


> Did you read where I wrote about a new house built for relocation that I taped with Fibafuse? long story short they relocated it and the board broke in quite a few places and the joins weren't affected at all, also Caz did his own experiments with it and showed it stronger than paper, I see Mitre10 have started retailing it to the general public for NZ$20 per roll .... holy rip off batman! we are only paying a bit over half that but hopefully as it gains momentum it might come down in price.


Your can lead a horse to water kiwiman, You can even try and shove its head in it and kick it up the ar$e, But if it wont drink.............


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

Kiwiman said:


> Did you read where I wrote about a new house built for relocation that I taped with Fibafuse? long story short they relocated it and the board broke in quite a few places and the joins weren't affected at all, also Caz did his own experiments with it and showed it stronger than paper, I see Mitre10 have started retailing it to the general public for NZ$20 per roll .... holy rip off batman! we are only paying a bit over half that but hopefully as it gains momentum it might come down in price.


Did the house have some paper taped joins for comparison?

When paper taped joins crack it not always the actual paper that cracks but the plaster on top of it, Fibafuse tape is much thicker than papertape so theres going to be less plaster on it.
I did a butt joint that was back blocked with drywall but they used glue to stick it (as 99% of builders do) after I got the top coat on it cracked, had to dig it out and re do it, as the glue dried it actually pulled the but joint back "out" and it wasn't the paper that cracked or failed but the compound on top of the tape, same thing would have happened with fibafuse.


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

cazna said:


> Your can lead a horse to water kiwiman, You can even try and shove its head in it and kick it up the ar$e, But if it wont drink.............


Root it before it dies? :whistling2:


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

What are some of these "great hotmuds"? Just curious as to what ya using?


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

cazna said:


> Your can lead a horse to water kiwiman, You can even try and shove its head in it and kick it up the ar$e, But if it wont drink.............



Hey don't get me wrong...I use Fibafuse, its great tape, but I'm not some silly horse that going to drink what ever is shoved in front of me, with out first doing some home work.


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

chris said:


> What are some of these "great hotmuds"? Just curious as to what ya using?


Tradeset 90 for me.


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

chris said:


> What are some of these "great hotmuds"? Just curious as to what ya using?


This, Or CSR from austrailia, And no, you cant have any, Sorry bro, southern hemisphere only. These muds seem to behave different than what you guys describe, IE, It dosnt swell, And it sticks like sh!t to a blanket, And dosnt continue shrinking much once set.


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Stopper said:


> Hey don't get me wrong...I use Fibafuse, its great tape, but I'm not some silly horse that going to drink what ever is shoved in front of me, with out first doing some home work.


 
Good man :thumbsup:


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

Stopper said:


> Hey don't get me wrong...I use Fibafuse, its great tape, but I'm not some silly horse that going to drink what ever is shoved in front of me, with out first doing some home work.


Just remember tho, if you aint going to drink the water then watch there isn't someone behind you with an apple crate to stand on


----------



## Jason (Feb 27, 2011)

Kiwiman said:


> Did you read where I wrote about a new house built for relocation that I taped with Fibafuse? long story short they relocated it and the board broke in quite a few places and the joins weren't affected at all, also Caz did his own experiments with it and showed it stronger than paper, I see Mitre10 have started retailing it to the general public for NZ$20 per roll .... holy rip off batman! we are only paying a bit over half that but hopefully as it gains momentum it might come down in price.


Not so fast, Kiwiman! :jester: 

Board cracking with intact joints has more to do with joint placement in relation to stress points in the structure than with the crack resistance of the tape. We get diagonal cracks through the board at the corners of doors and windows in our transportables while the paper taped joints remain solid.

Also, we have to be careful with the word "stronger." Mesh tape is "stronger" then paper tape. Being nylon or whatever it is, it's far more difficult to tear with your fingers or pull in half than paper, but it provides lousy crack protection because it's a poor stress distributor.

I'd be interested in seeing your Fuse tests Caz. I bet you did stuff that actually counts as far as crack protection goes.

Looking forward to hijacking the new guy's thread with the hot new debate.


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

cazna said:


> Good point, I never considered that, or noticed that before, But now you say it, Of course :blink: I get the feeling your good at your job, Like moore, with a messy state of a work wagon :yes:


 I'm nervous that things will turn to **** on me, so I try and make sure they don't, I did a house with 150 butt joins once, around every window and door so I had to do everything I could to make them as strong as possible. Luckily the owner, who woudn't heed my warning, sold it not long after. He build another house and didn't employ me, the guy he did employ to do the stopping was actually the painter on the first house. He used and aplatech system and it all turned to **** on him. 

(I've bought a tub of plus4 like you recommended...got a room to skim, will see if its got better adhesion than Promix. Do you think it would be a good zooka mud? Have emailed Winstons with a few questions as well.
Thought about importing some of that Mud-max , for all you'd use in taping mud its not going to add much to the price even with the freight.)


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

Jason said:


> Not so fast, Kiwiman! :jester:
> 
> Board cracking with intact joints has more to do with joint placement in relation to stress points in the structure than with the crack resistance of the tape. We get diagonal cracks through the board at the corners of doors and windows in our transportables while the paper taped joints remain solid.
> 
> ...



Well I think the perfect testing ground for Fibafuse is Christchurch, they're using heaps of the stuff up there and still getting big quakes. I know a building inspector up there and hes been tellling me about how badly fibatape has done so might get him to keep his ear open for news about fibafuse


----------



## Jason (Feb 27, 2011)

Stopper said:


> Thought about importing some of that Mud-max , for all you'd use in taping mud its not going to add much to the price even with the freight.)


It's probably just PVA. Get some Bondcrete. USG taping mud is sexy stuff tho, if you have it.


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

Jason said:


> Not so fast, Kiwiman! :jester:
> 
> Board cracking with intact joints has more to do with joint placement in relation to stress points in the structure than with the crack resistance of the tape. We get diagonal cracks through the board at the corners of doors and windows in our transportables while the paper taped joints remain solid.
> 
> ...


 and the debate begins......I'm out a here


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

Stopper said:


> Well I think the perfect testing ground for Fibafuse is Christchurch, they're using heaps of the stuff up there and still getting big quakes. I know a building inspector up there and hes been tellling me about how badly fibatape has done so might get him to keep his ear open for news about fibafuse


Actually to quote myself lol, and back on topic... the Thread author should tell his General contractors how badly Fibatape had done in Christchurch compared to papertape , and out Fibatape is bedded in with extremely good setting compound that stuff Cazna posted a pic of above.

We do have another mud called Maxset 90 it has the consistency of tradeset with paper pulp in it ...sort of  supposed to be much stronger, I don't like troweling it. I hate changing my systems


----------



## Jason (Feb 27, 2011)

Stopper said:


> Well I think the perfect testing ground for Fibafuse is Christchurch, they're using heaps of the stuff up there and still getting big quakes. I know a building inspector up there and hes been tellling me about how badly fibatape has done so might get him to keep his ear open for news about fibafuse


Feedback is always good but the nice thing about test data is that variables like the mud, the tradesman, the type of stress on the joint, etc are all removed to a great degree.

It just gives me the sh!ts when a company is trying to sell something without any testing to support the product claims. If I ask for data the salesman tells me to "Just try it." Hmmm, why don't you try it, record the results, present them to me, and then I'll consider whether to use it. I'm not going to pay someone to be their guinnea pig. Wtf.


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

Jason said:


> Feedback is always good but the nice thing about test data is that variables like the mud, the tradesman, the type of stress on the joint, etc are all removed to a great degree.
> 
> It just gives me the sh!ts when a company is trying to sell something without any testing to support the product claims. If I ask for data the salesman tells me to "Just try it." Hmmm, why don't you try it, record the results, present them to me, and then I'll consider whether to use it. I'm not going to pay someone to be their guinnea pig. Wtf.


 That true, I always used to use Fibatape because EVERYONE did and was a staunch defender of it, never let me down, but now that I've switched to paper I'd be too nervous to use it again. They still sell it here and some "tradesmen" still use it, but its not for me.

Funny thing was, many years ago Fibatape used to carry the BRANZ approved sticker , which is a New Zealand building research organisation, they tested it and found it ok, then one day they stickers were gone lol.


----------



## Jason (Feb 27, 2011)

Stopper said:


> That true, I always used to use Fibatape because EVERYONE did and was a staunch defender of it, never let me down, but now that I've switched to paper I'd be too nervous to use it again. They still sell it here and some "tradesmen" still use it, but its not for me.
> 
> Funny thing was, many years ago Fibatape used to carry the BRANZ approved sticker , which is a New Zealand building research organisation, they tested it and found it ok, *then one day they stickers were gone lol*.


Haha, guess the fibertape guys were late with the envolope full of money to BRANZ that month!


----------



## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

Stopper said:


> In new zealand we're required to leave a gap between sheets when they're fixed, forcing a setting compound into that gap locks the sheets together, I reckon you get half the strength of your join by doing that, and thats the deepest mud that goes into a join too, taping and filling are relatively thin coats.
> But joins are best V'ed out , But if you prefill them all in one go.


So are you telling me that in New Zealand all the boarding is done with gaps between?

Out here we want the board tight together! 

Interesting, is it just because you hotmud a lot?


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

gam026 said:


> I live in Nova Scotia, Canada and have been taping for 25 years. Out here we use fiber tape on the walls and paper tape in the corners,(always been that way). Rarly do you see paper on the joints
> 
> I have been considering switching to paper tape on my joints, but trying to convince the GC's its better is like pulling teath:yes:. Any suggestions on how I can sell it to them. I know its a better system but they don't. Also what do you guys that use paper put on your bead. Here its vynal and fibre on top.


Sorry about them nasty sheep shaggy kiwi's stealing your thread fellow Canuck:whistling2:

Just tell them the rest of Canada uses paper tape:thumbsup:

Plus using paper tape helps support our lumber jacks. mesh tape supports those greedy Oil barons in the Middle east:yes:


----------



## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

Nova Scotia being so close to Newfoundland, they may have got some bad advice from some Newfies on using mesh tape. 

Should never take the advice of a Newfie!


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

Mudshark said:


> So are you telling me that in New Zealand all the boarding is done with gaps between?
> 
> Out here we want the board tight together!
> 
> Interesting, is it just because you hotmud a lot?


 Just checked the Gib fixing guide theres no mention of it but builders stipulate it all the time (helped a builder I finish for fix drywall a few weeks ago), strange might have to ask them about it next time, I prefer being able to force plaster between sheets for the sake of making the joint stronger anyway.


Gib site guide says touch fitted hmmm thats interesting...


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

It 99% touch fitted here stopper, One builder thinks a nail width between the sheets is needed as it hasnt any tension on it, I think its a hassel, You have to fill em before you can tape, But as you may have realised by now, Even if the sheets are touching, when using air dry muds, some like to make the first day a pre fill day, Thats all screws and the seams, let dry, then tape, That helps with the shrinkage issues of airdry muds. Me, Im back to tradeset taping through banjo, Its been wet here for 7 days solid, it can do that for 30 days, everythings damp, Airday taping wont dry without heat and dehumids, You think its dry, keep coating, the owners move in and warm the place up and BAM, oh look, some of the seams have shrunk. Its too unstable, Tradesets much more stable for the flats, Airdry ok for no coat and corners after a tradeset pre fill. If you gonna do airdry through the zooka taping then that useless unproven fibafuse:whistling2: is your friend, It allows better drying, Paper tape surface drys and blocks air getting to and moisture getting out of the mud.


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

I haven't seen anyone use a nail to space the sheets apart since the mid 90's, the reason they stopped doing that was because of expansion, and the resulting compression between the sheets which would force the set mud out to a peak.
I always do a small V cut on the butts so as to bond the sheet ends together.


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

cazna said:


> It 99% touch fitted here stopper, One builder thinks a nail width between the sheets is needed as it hasnt any tension on it, I think its a hassel, You have to fill em before you can tape, But as you may have realised by now, Even if the sheets are touching, when using air dry muds, some like to make the first day a pre fill day, Thats all screws and the seams, let dry, then tape, That helps with the shrinkage issues of airdry muds. Me, Im back to tradeset taping through banjo, Its been wet here for 7 days solid, it can do that for 30 days, everythings damp, Airday taping wont dry without heat and dehumids, You think its dry, keep coating, the owners move in and warm the place up and BAM, oh look, some of the seams have shrunk. Its too unstable, Tradesets much more stable for the flats, Airdry ok for no coat and corners after a tradeset pre fill. If you gonna do airdry through the zooka taping then that useless unproven fibafuse:whistling2: is your friend, It allows better drying, Paper tape surface drys and blocks air getting to and moisture getting out of the mud.


 I've never had a problem with shrinking mud, can't see why putting tape on a with a bazooka would lead greater drying problems over a banjo, and when you bed fibafuse in theres more mud and moisture there that there is when paper is bedded in...Fibafuse is thicker and holds mud throughout paper only has a small amount under and a skim over the top before filling, and if anything Paper dries faster in my opinion... Buy a moisture meter, then you can have piece of mind that your joints are dry if the weathers a bit wet.


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

Kiwiman said:


> I haven't seen anyone use a nail to space the sheets apart since the mid 90's, the reason they stopped doing that was because of expansion, and the resulting compression between the sheets which would force the set mud out to a peak.
> I always do a small V cut on the butts so as to bond the sheet ends together.



Leaving a gap between sheets doesn't cause peaking, the hot mud you put into that gap is denser than the mud the board is made from, if theres expansion it won't be the denser mud in the gap that gives way it will be the softer mud in the sheet. 
The reason for the peak is shrinkage alone, when using fiba tape you get a peak on the first coat or if you paper over a gap it won't always stay flat , subsequent coats shrink more where the mud is thicker and less over the initial peak. that can cause the peak to show once its painted, I think it happened more when making mud too sloppy.
I did a job once in the middle of winter, no heat on site, enamel paint very harsh lighting and it showed a slight peak, thats the only time its happened t me, it wasn't helped by the paint using a portable gas heater to dry his paint, humidity was insane, builder also use wet battons...stains came through first around the screws, and exteneded along the battons, right through enamel paint!! and 12.5 mmm of board, so I can't take all the blame for that one lol
Seen plenty of peaking and hollow joins with guys I worked with, only happened to me that one time. and as I say even with full gloss enamel paint and windows up to within a coupe of inches of the ceiling you could barely see the peak.
Not letting the mud in the gap dry is the problem, I guess its a trade off between making the join less strong by having no gap but reducing risk of peaking, or a stronger join and greater risk of peaking.


----------



## gam026 (Aug 14, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> Sorry about them nasty sheep shaggy kiwi's stealing your thread fellow Canuck:whistling2:
> 
> Just tell them the rest of Canada uses paper tape:thumbsup::yes:
> 
> Plus using paper tape helps support our lumber jacks. mesh tape supports those greedy Oil barons in the Middle east:yes:


Its ok, here in atlantic Canada we don't even have fibrefuse. Iv never really heard of hotmud before either until I started reading this forum. We use mostly sheetrock 90 up here, whic I asume tou would call hotmud. I am very interested in switching to a paper tape system though. I have asked some of my workers about it and they don't seem happy about it but I'm the boss and there just going to have to live with it.


----------



## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

I'm with your guys.Stick with whats been working for you the last 25 yrs.:thumbsup:
wiping out tape is too much work imo.coating is easy work.


----------



## Jason (Feb 27, 2011)

Blows my mind that none of you lobster shaggers have run paper before. As always (and these guys are getting tired of hearing me recommend it by now) I recommend the Homax banjo. But if neither you or any of your guys have used paper before, you are going to be fighting it for a little while no matter what tool you pick up. Might be wise to transition into it a few rooms at a time before going to your builders and insisting on it. 

Guess the first lesson would be: If the paper is popping loose - blistering - it means you didn't have any mud behind it.


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

Apologies to Cazna

My tests on Papertape shows that although Paper is stronger, it cracks long before it snaps...where as the fibafuse shows no sign of a hairline crack untill it gets near breaking point.

Paper must stretch more than Fibafuse, and when Fibafuse does start to give it doesn't crack in a straight line. tends to meander a bit.

If I'd used hotmud I'd say the join might even end up almost as strong as or stronger than the actual drywall board itself. :thumbsup:


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

Stopper said:


> Apologies to Cazna
> 
> My tests on Papertape shows that although Paper is stronger, it cracks long before it snaps...where as the fibafuse shows no sign of a hairline crack untill it gets near breaking point.
> 
> ...


How did you test it Stopper?


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Cheers Stopper, You might not know and the search is useless now on this fantastic new improved F ing hopeless verison of drywalltalk, But we have actually hammered fibafuse quite well, Just like you, I was a sceptic and wouldnt use it on a new house couse i thought something might balls up on me.

If you have enough time read this thread, I started when fuse first showed up, My post number 70 on page 4 sold me, Its incredibly strong. :yes:

http://www.drywalltalk.com/f9/fibafuse-thoughts-views-1175/


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

Kiwiman said:


> How did you test it Stopper?


It was a very quick huckery test, not very scientific, I was actually more interested in how well different compounds stuck tape to board.

but I scored as piece of drywall twice with a knife then taped one with paper and one with fibafuse, let it dry for a few days then clamped one half down with a board and left the other side overhanging, then started beating the other half with side of fist, now this only tested one type of stress so It would be wrong to draw too many conclusions from it.
But the paper held with alot of heavy beating , showed a hairline crack and then with very heavy hitting snapped, fiba wouldn't show any crack until I hit it very very hard repeatedly, and the forced to snap un-scored drywall was only very slightly more.

A better test might be to make a square picture frame line round it with strips creating joins where you shouldn't create joins ,at the corners, plaster them up, then anchor the bottom of the frame to a table and apply constant force to the top trying to push it over. and measure exactly how much force it take to make it break.

Could probably use a heavy weight on a pendulum and raise it to different heights in stages , and let it swing down and hit each time.

Or maybe tape one corner up wth paper and one with fibafuse and see which one lets go first or shows a hairline crack.

Be pretty hard to simulate real world conditions I reckon. but atleast it would give you an idea .

Another would be fix to pieces of drywall to a piece of dry 10x2 then stop half the join with fibafuse and half paper and side it wood side down in a tray of water...and the timber swells it will pull on the join

I could do a time lapse of it for ****s and giggles if you want? I imagine the timber would swell pretty fast, 24 hour time lapse in 1 minute would be interesting.. might get me some adsense dollars!!! yeee harrr!!


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

cazna said:


> Cheers Stopper, You might not know and the search is useless now on this fantastic new improved F ing hopeless verison of drywalltalk, But we have actually hammered fibafuse quite well, Just like you, I was a sceptic and wouldnt use it on a new house couse i thought something might balls up on me.
> 
> If you have enough time read this thread, I started when fuse first showed up, My post number 70 on page 4 sold me, Its incredibly strong. :yes:
> 
> http://www.drywalltalk.com/f9/fibafuse-thoughts-views-1175/


 I did a whole house before Christmas with it, promix all 3 coats etc..I used to use fibatape and never had any problems (that I know of :thumbup so didn't have a problem using this. 

Only problem is I like to SNAP!! the paper on ceilings with my banjo... tried to do that with Fibafuse and it snapped


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

cazna said:


> Cheers Stopper, You might not know and the search is useless now on this fantastic new improved F ing hopeless verison of drywalltalk, But we have actually hammered fibafuse quite well, Just like you, I was a sceptic and wouldnt use it on a new house couse i thought something might balls up on me.
> 
> If you have enough time read this thread, I started when fuse first showed up, My post number 70 on page 4 sold me, Its incredibly strong. :yes:
> 
> http://www.drywalltalk.com/f9/fibafuse-thoughts-views-1175/


Was that with hotmud? I only tested with Promix and Tradefinish multi

And paper is harder to pull apart, but hairline cracks sooner.

To be fair I'll do my wet timber test with setting compound and anther with air dried to see if the same tape wins each time or not. post results in that other thread, right now I'm testing vinyl bead "Intex" brand, glued with supertak then filled with 45 VS glued with 45 and filled with 45...


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

Stopper said:


> It was a very quick huckery test, not very scientific, I was actually more interested in how well different compounds stuck tape to board.
> 
> but I scored as piece of drywall twice with a knife then taped one with paper and one with fibafuse, let it dry for a few days then clamped one half down with a board and left the other side overhanging, then started beating the other half with side of fist, now this only tested one type of stress so It would be wrong to draw too many conclusions from it.
> But the paper held with alot of heavy beating , showed a hairline crack and then with very heavy hitting snapped, fiba wouldn't show any crack until I hit it very very hard repeatedly, and the forced to snap un-scored drywall was only very slightly more.
> ...


Yup, there's a lot of ways it needs to be tested, hey!, here's an idea....why don't you do a series of tests with 3 different tapes...Paper...Fibafuse...........and Mesh :shifty:
It's very deceiving stuff that Fibafuse, rip it apart in your hands and the first thoughts are .....yeah right....no way thats going to be strong enough, but it's the combination of the tape and the mud through it that gives it strength, a bit like fibreglassing but with mud instead of resin.
I think it might be time to ask Tom from Fibafuse to step in and tell us how they did their testing, when they say 70% stronger than paper, was it independently tested or did they do their own testing.


----------



## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

Kiwiman said:


> Yup, there's a lot of ways it needs to be tested, hey!, here's an idea....why don't you do a series of tests with 3 different tapes...Paper...Fibafuse...........and Mesh :shifty:
> It's very deceiving stuff that Fibafuse, rip it apart in your hands and the first thoughts are .....yeah right....no way thats going to be strong enough, but it's the combination of the tape and the mud through it that gives it strength, a bit like fibreglassing but with mud instead of resin.
> I think it might be time to ask Tom from Fibafuse to step in and tell us how they did their testing, when they say 70% stronger than paper, was it independently tested or did they do their own testing.



I don't care whats stronger I want some adsense dollars for my youtube account :thumbup:

But yer, I'm ashamed to say i have heaps of rolls of Fiba round the place... People occasionally bring the stuff out on small jobs "Can you use this?" they say :blink:

I'll include fiba... and maybe some loo paper, double ply


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Stopper said:


> Was that with hotmud? I only tested with Promix and Tradefinish multi
> 
> And paper is harder to pull apart, but hairline cracks sooner.
> 
> To be fair I'll do my wet timber test with setting compound and anther with air dried to see if the same tape wins each time or not. post results in that other thread, right now I'm testing vinyl bead "Intex" brand, glued with supertak then filled with 45 VS glued with 45 and filled with 45...


It was actually sheetrock taping mud, thats quite tough stuff, Can you get hamiltons or sheetrock, They both do a taping mud for zookas if thats how you what to go.

Have you tryed that maxset, I havent seen it before, Wonder what thats like with the fuse?? Could be awsome :blink:

Your a bit more into the testing than i am, But i do have a 16month old, Freetime???? Huh, whats that.


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Stopper said:


> Thats right...but what I was getting at was that as mud dries in a v'd out butt joint it can sometime pull from one side leaving a hairline crack, and if it does that then you're back exactly where you started from, the whole point of V'ing a butt out is to get plaster onto both ends of the sheet and increase the surface area of the ends of the sheets. It was just a tip to make sure the mud stick to both sides. Moore was talking about mud that had dried on the surface of a sheet where its only shrinking back towards the board. You could prefill large gaps with Premixed mud but our muds aren't desinged for it, And my tip was for Hotmud.


V-cuts can be deceiving, you need to really prep the cut if you want it to be bomber...I've had v-cuts crack, if for no other reason than the micro-layer of dust. First course of action, and simplest is to take a wet paint-brush and get the dust out. Better is to paint some adhesive in there.....then you've effectively welded the sheets together. The cracks that I've fixed using this method do not return (at least not that I've ever seen). The water/paintbrush method requires negligible time/expenses, and the glue......well, I've always got that stuff handy:thumbsup:


----------

