# Being a Prophet of Profits



## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

Being a Prophet of Profits

Please receive this message as the start of an ongoing conversation about investment and return on investment in human driven systems. Take a look at these enhancements to human driven systems with the investments of time, effort and money, and the return on investment in mind. Productivity relies on a deliberate focus on these considerations. Everything affects everything else.

Mudmaster – [email protected]
Time – How much time is consumed mixing mud … handling, cleaning and/or disposing of buckets … and filling machine tools and feeding sprayers? Where could that time be better spent?
Effort – How much effort is invested in mixing mud … handling, cleaning and/or disposing of buckets … and filling machine tools and feeding sprayers? Where could that effort be better invested?
Money – How much money is invested in mixing mud … handling, cleaning and/or disposing of buckets … and filling machine tools and feeding sprayers? What is the difference in material cost of bucket mud vs box mud? How many buckets of mud do you consume in a year? Where could that money be better invested?

Washmaster - [email protected]
Time – How much time is consumed hauling water, hauling tools to a hose or slop sink, cleaning up those cleanup areas, and cleaning tools? Where could that time be better spent?
Effort – How much effort is invested in hauling water, disposing of waste water, hauling tools to a hose or slop sink, cleaning up those cleanup areas, and cleaning tools? Where could that time be better invested? 
Money – How much money is invested in hauling water, disposing of waste water, hauling tools to a hose or slop sink, cleaning up those cleanup areas, and cleaning tools? Where could that time be better invested? 

Never Miss Finishing System – [email protected]
Time – There are 28,800 seconds in an 8 hour day. In performing the functions of drywall finishing, hand – eye coordination is critical. Every task requires seeking, finding, then, finishing something. What is your sense of how many seconds are committed to seeking and finding what it is to be finished? You can’t fix what you can’t see and the quicker you find it the quicker you can fix it.
Effort – Skill and effort go hand in hand. The levels of effort of mind, body and soul committed to the cause of the proper drywall finishing effect, affect how much time and how much money will be committed to each task that makes up the finishing process. Time, money and effort committed to one task, takes away time, money and effort that could be committed to another. What tasks produce the greatest return on your invested time, effort and money? 
Money – The right amount of money spent on the right things saves you time, effort and money, and creates surplus time, effort and money to be invested in the right things in the right amounts.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Answer to all of the "how could that time be better spent" questions:

Playing with my children. Eating cookies. Lying in the grass listening to the creek blurbling by. 

Or, paying someone else peanuts to do the job while I reap tremendous profits.

However, I'm sure these aren't the answers you had in mind.....I'd like to hear your solutions/insights Mr. Gorilla.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

I have heard of painters charging $30 to clean out there brushes when changing colours [is that spelt right?] 

I Get what the General Is saying..When you walk In the door ..Your clocked in...HELL!! These days I try to get back what it cost me to get there and back...That chit adds up...:blink:


It's a WAR out there boys!!!! A God damn WAR!!:furious:


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

I am a drywall machine.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

moore said:


> I have heard of painters charging $30 to clean out there brushes when changing colours [is that spelt right?]
> 
> I Get what the General Is saying..When you walk In the door ..Your clocked in...HELL!! These days I try to get back what it cost me to get there and back...That chit adds up...:blink:
> 
> ...


I've started charging for the time it takes to load/unload my truck, as well as time spent cleaning buckets/rollers/brushes when I go home. It's only fair.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

It seems the DC's top of the line human driven, fully automatic drywall finishing system is unfortunately down for repairs. 

It broke down today.... the seconday drive of the drive train, which is also a primary member of one of two major support column's, failed while preforming a taping task. 

The unit is to be kept in it's own housing structure until regeneration of the affected component is complete.

Appologies to all parties affected by the failure of this out dated piece of equipment.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

LOL! Been there done that!

Get well soon PA! :yes:


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> It seems the DC's top of the line human driven, fully automatic drywall finishing system is unfortunately down for repairs.
> 
> It broke down today.... the seconday drive of the drive train, which is also a primary member of one of two major support column's, failed while preforming a taping task.
> 
> ...


Take it easy bro, hope you have a quick recovery.


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> It seems the DC's top of the line human driven, fully automatic drywall finishing system is unfortunately down for repairs.
> 
> It broke down today.... the seconday drive of the drive train, which is also a primary member of one of two major support column's, failed while preforming a taping task.
> 
> ...


 OMG........your cock fell off???


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Kiwiman said:


> OMG........your cock fell off???


 :lol::lol::lol::laughing:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Kiwiman said:


> OMG........your cock fell off???


That was too funny.

Whatever part it actually is, P.A., hope it works well again soon for you.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks Kiwi :lol:.
I'm sure The Field General would have understood.
Anyway, I tore up my calf muscles in one leg.


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

*Cost Analysis?*

Why is it that people are willing to pay more for the costs and consequences of wasted time, effort and money, and not willing to pay less than that cost to reduce and eliminate that waste, and increase the probability of realizing a return on that investment? What is the cause of this troubling behavior? What is the foundation of this stinkin' thinkin'?


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

Understood and appreciated P.A Rocker ... the body has been benched but the mind and spirit are still in the game ... get well soon and use the time out to "strengthen" the mind and spirit.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Field General said:


> Why is it that people are willing to pay more for the costs and consequences of wasted time, effort and money, and not willing to pay less than that cost to reduce and eliminate that waste, and increase the probability of realizing a return on that investment? What is the cause of this troubling behavior? What is the foundation of this stinkin' thinkin'?


Maybe at times laziness and apathy somewhat, in thought and action?

The foundation of most all stinking thinking has been considered by some to be one or a combination of 2 things - arrogance and ignorance. Getting close with that?


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Thanks Kiwi :lol:.
> I'm sure The Field General would have understood.
> Anyway, I tore up my calf muscles in one leg.


Holy that sucks:blink:

So are you going to let fr8train take over the reins for a bit, and sit on the passenger side of the wagon and watch,,,,,, making sure he don't put the cart in front of the horse, or get BUCKED off the hose:whistling2:

Or have you both been put out to the pasture ?????


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Field General said:


> Why is it that people are willing to pay more for the costs and consequences of wasted time, effort and money, and not willing to pay less than that cost to reduce and eliminate that waste, and increase the probability of realizing a return on that investment? What is the cause of this troubling behavior? What is the foundation of this stinkin' thinkin'?


Why is it that people are willing to point out the problems, but not offer the solutions that it seemed they were on the cusp of pronouncing?


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

JustMe said:


> Maybe at times laziness and apathy somewhat, in thought and action?
> 
> The foundation of most all stinking thinking has been considered by some to be one or a combination of 2 things - arrogance and ignorance. Getting close with that?



Abso-freakin-lutely!


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

JustMe said:


> Maybe at times laziness and apathy somewhat, in thought and action?
> 
> The foundation of most all stinking thinking has been considered by some to be one or a combination of 2 things - arrogance and ignorance. Getting close with that?





SlimPickins said:


> Why is it that people are willing to point out the problems, but not offer the solutions that it seemed they were on the cusp of pronouncing?


Keeping it real. Getting yourself and others to recognize and make visible those things that we know but don't know that we know them ... tacit knowledge. The survival mechanism response to new ideas as threats first instead of opportunities and perceived as weakening one's social and economic position instead of strengthening it seems to drive the decision making process of what is a "good" idea and a "bad" idea. How do you re-frame this knee jerk perception so that it is not assumed or believed to be the reality? How do you facilitate the "tasting" of a new idea, the necessary "chewing" ..."savoring of the complex flavors on the tongues of those tasting an idea" before they either "swallow it" or "spit it out" too prematurely?


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Arrogrance and ignorance surely are a common cause of waste in a crew of workers but, good old plain laziness and not caring about results is also a contributer. 
Also, lack of comprehension or ability to convey ideas and methods to others can foster confusion in a simple interior system for months. And, before you know it, issues with egos arise out of the confusion which leads to a total break down of cooperation. I've seen this type of failure happen over and over.


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

gazman said:


> Take it easy bro, hope you have a quick recovery.


The video is priceless. A perfect example of the "Paul Bunyan Syndrome". When I first started hand taping, I had myself convinced, by experience, that I could compete with any banjo taper. But being curious, I bought a banjo and found that I was faster than "I" was as a hand taper by using the banjo. Then, by experience, I had myself convinced that I could compete with any machine taper. But being curious and finally having the funds to purchase a set of tools, I found that I was faster than "I" was as a banjo taper by using the tools. The system of finishing became more redefined and refined. My point is, by shear will, physical effort, and putting the time in, we are capable of doing amazing things. But in a way our strength (determination) becomes our weakness in that we set our minds to do the "impossible" and convince ourselves for a while that this is as good as it gets ... until we go beyond our experience of competing with others and do what's necessary to out do ourselves.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Field General said:


> Abso-freakin-lutely!


Although it's a sub-concept in many ways to some of those more 'umbrella' concepts I posted, I'll throw 'continuity in thinking' out there as well as a cause to consider, to give another possible way of looking at things:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Field General said:


> Keeping it real. Getting yourself and others to recognize and make visible those things that we know but don't know that we know them ... tacit knowledge. The survival mechanism response to new ideas as threats first instead of opportunities and perceived as weakening one's social and economic position instead of strengthening it seems to drive the decision making process of what is a "good" idea and a "bad" idea. How do you re-frame this knee jerk perception so that it is not assumed or believed to be the reality? How do you facilitate the "tasting" of a new idea, the necessary "chewing" ..."savoring of the complex flavors on the tongues of those tasting an idea" before they either "swallow it" or "spit it out" too prematurely?


I understand a desire to promote awareness in the hope for growth. The trouble lies in bypassing thousands of years of genetic processing.

You could do this with psychedelic compounds, but the logistics (and repercussions) of priming listeners before your suggestions are limiting. Perhaps you could quietly design and implement a sub-sonic pineal gland activator (or if you made a video with your "sales pitch" it could be carried subliminally) that could be used to raise the open-mindedness of your subjects. 

*waits to see if Field General spits or swallows*


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

This condition - "this industry lags so far behind in method and execution" is a relatively new phenomena. One only needs to read the history of the construction of the Empire State Building and similar stories to get a sense that something changed along the way ... the "barbarians" have turned into "guardians" ... the unintended consequence of too much control has diminished the returns on influence ... extreme efficiency focus has made some blind to its purpose - effectiveness. I came into this industry when those who owned and ran construction companies were driven by purpose and not fear. They invested their time, effort and money in the creative people who "did the work", where they "did the work", observed how they "did the work", and worked with them in the efforts to find a better way. They bid jobs with contingencies, appreciating and understanding that this industry, like life, is perfectly imperfect and that high, unrealistic expectations result in low satisfaction. They worked to identify and reduce risks rather than plotting and scheming to find a way to transfer that risk. They spent more time looking for solutions to problems than looking for someone to blame. I could go on and on and on ... the creativity-courage-competence-confidence-commitment continuum ... the whole that is greater than the sum of its parts ... has been reduced to competing parts in the quest for efficiency at the expense of effectiveness. Set me free why don't you baby ... dare to step out of present-mindedness and live where the past meets the future in the present ... experiment with leaning forward enough to move forward knowing it's better to fall on your face than on your back. Creativity, courage, competence, confidence and commitment will give you the capabilities to get yourself up, brush yourself off, and live to fight another day smarter and stronger than you were the day before. What does not kill us, defines us.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Field General said:


> This condition - "this industry lags so far behind in method and execution" is a relatively new phenomena. One only needs to read the history of the construction of the Empire State Building and similar stories to get a sense that something changed along the way ... the "barbarians" have turned into "guardians" ... the unintended consequence of too much control has diminished the returns on influence ... extreme efficiency focus has made some blind to its purpose - effectiveness. I came into this industry when those who owned and ran construction companies were driven by purpose and not fear. They invested their time, effort and money in the creative people who "did the work", where they "did the work", observed how they "did the work", and worked with them in the efforts to find a better way. They bid jobs with contingencies, appreciating and understanding that this industry, like life, is perfectly imperfect and that high, unrealistic expectations result in low satisfaction. They worked to identify and reduce risks rather than plotting and scheming to find a way to transfer that risk. They spent more time looking for solutions to problems than looking for someone to blame. I could go on and on and on ... the creativity-courage-competence-confidence-commitment continuum ... the whole that is greater than the sum of its parts ... has been reduced to competing parts in the quest for efficiency at the expense of effectiveness. Set me free why don't you baby ... dare to step out of present-mindedness and live where the past meets the future in the present ... experiment with leaning forward enough to move forward knowing it's better to fall on your face than on your back. Creativity, courage, competence, confidence and commitment will give you the capabilities to get yourself up, brush yourself off, and live to fight another day smarter and stronger than you were the day before. What does not kill us, defines us.


There's nothing I'm reading that I'd disagree with at this point. However, I haven't looked back into the history that you're making reference to.

Are you thinking to move this to a 'how-to' at some point? Eg. How to be effectively creative? I'm focusing on creativity because it seems that at least 3 of your "courage, competence, confidence and commitment" could be established, strengthened, through effective creativity skills.

The one I'm leaving out some in that right now is 'commitment'. I'm thinking 'commitment' could be something that is needed to be effectively creative. Although being effectively creative could also feed the desire for commitment - success, through something like effective creativity, can breed and reinforce commitment.

But if you have something that might change that viewpoint of mine........


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

If I were to walk on the job ,and say to the G/C..THIS is BULL****!!! I can't hang this cluster ..You need to do this ...You need to do that.. It would end in down time...Stuck in the 70's here
guys!


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Field General said:


> This condition - "this industry lags so far behind in method and execution" is a relatively new phenomena. One only needs to read the history of the construction of the Empire State Building and similar stories to get a sense that something changed along the way ... the "barbarians" have turned into "guardians" ... the unintended consequence of too much control has diminished the returns on influence ... extreme efficiency focus has made some blind to its purpose - effectiveness. I came into this industry when those who owned and ran construction companies were driven by purpose and not fear. They invested their time, effort and money in the creative people who "did the work", where they "did the work", observed how they "did the work", and worked with them in the efforts to find a better way. They bid jobs with contingencies, appreciating and understanding that this industry, like life, is perfectly imperfect and that high, unrealistic expectations result in low satisfaction. They worked to identify and reduce risks rather than plotting and scheming to find a way to transfer that risk. They spent more time looking for solutions to problems than looking for someone to blame. I could go on and on and on ... the creativity-courage-competence-confidence-commitment continuum ... the whole that is greater than the sum of its parts ... has been reduced to competing parts in the quest for efficiency at the expense of effectiveness. Set me free why don't you baby ... dare to step out of present-mindedness and live where the past meets the future in the present ... experiment with leaning forward enough to move forward knowing it's better to fall on your face than on your back. Creativity, courage, competence, confidence and commitment will give you the capabilities to get yourself up, brush yourself off, and live to fight another day smarter and stronger than you were the day before. What does not kill us, defines us.


I've been working my "bids" this way lately. I generally say "in a perfect world this number will be a little high and you will receive a discount". However, I make clear that the world, and job conditions are never perfect, and while I will be as communicative as possible should issues arise, there is indeed a potential for problems. I will not commit to numbers when there are large unknowns (ie. what exactly is behind that stained, sagging OSB on your garage ceiling?).

I have found myself fortunate enough to land in a group of talented thoughtful builders with an eye for design, craft, cost, and reasonable foresight. We are always working toward elegant solutions and backcharges are a four letter word...passing the buck doesn't happen.

I've been thinking a lot about BIM strategy, and how to integrate it into all projects. Communication between trades *before* work commences is invaluable. And, working in remodel, creativity is an essential element. 

I suppose that when reading your initial post I was hoping for something earth-shattering in terms of new process/idea/etc., but in reality, it appears that we are thinking along the same lines.

Does this now become a symposium of ideas on how to improve the work environment? 




moore said:


> If I were to walk on the job ,and say to the G/C..THIS is BULL****!!! I can't hang this cluster ..You need to do this ...You need to do that.. It would end in down time...Stuck in the 70's here
> guys!


No moore, what you say is "Hey man, there are a few things that need to be done before I can hang this house. I'm more than happy to fix these items. I'll have to charge you for the extra time and materials, but I'll make sure your house is done properly." This is an opportunity for you to show that you care about the builder's project as well as increase your time (read: money) on site.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Field General said:


> How do you facilitate the "tasting" of a new idea, the necessary "chewing" ..."savoring of the complex flavors on the tongues of those tasting an idea" before they either "swallow it" or "spit it out" too prematurely?


You cram it down their throats, and hold your hand over their mouth?


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> You cram it down their throats, and hold your hand over their mouth?


Or you can give them something more than abstract thought - something tangible, like 'how to do it' - to make them more willingly listen and swallow it.

Otherwise it can be like the sign 'Think' that might be hanging behind a business owner's desk. Think how? In what way? How think better than I already am?

How to do it, or do it better, if what's already being done isn't acceptable enough. Kind of a nice thing to know.


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

I’ve made a career in the construction industry out of paying attention to details while keeping the “big problems” in the forefront of my mind. Ideas of progress are shaped by human needs, and broad shifts in those needs influence the course of innovation – necessity being the mother of invention. The flip side of this is that “we can’t fix what we can’t see” … “if I only had my glasses, I could find my glasses”. There are “known knowns” … things we know that we know. There are “known unknowns” … things that we know we don’t know. There are “unknown unknowns” ... things we don’t know we don’t know. And, there are also the “unknown knowns” … things we don’t know that we know … all those unconscious beliefs and prejudices that determine how we perceive reality and intervene in it. This condition described … when there is important information which if we had, we would use, but because we don’t have it, we don’t at that time see the relevance of gaining it … is something I’ve been painfully aware of and have been subjected to my whole life. It is what I see as the biggest of “big problems”. I believe this to be the root cause of many, if not all, “human causes”. The sustenance of relationships is relating. Can you relate? I knew that you could.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> Or you can give them something more than abstract thought - something tangible, like 'how to do it' - to make them more willingly listen and swallow it.
> 
> Otherwise it can be like the sign 'Think' that might be hanging behind a business owner's desk. Think how? In what way? How think better than I already am?
> 
> How to do it, or do it better, if what's already being done isn't acceptable enough. Kind of a nice thing to know.


My first question is this: Why are we trying to make people think differently? To sell them ideas and products? What's the motivation? Is it altruistic or profit driven? Would leading by example prove to be the most effective solution?




Field General said:


> I’ve made a career in the construction industry out of paying attention to details while keeping the “big problems” in the forefront of my mind. Ideas of progress are shaped by human needs, and broad shifts in those needs influence the course of innovation – necessity being the mother of invention. The flip side of this is that “we can’t fix what we can’t see” … “if I only had my glasses, I could find my glasses”. There are “known knowns” … things we know that we know. There are “known unknowns” … things that we know we don’t know. There are “unknown unknowns” ... things we don’t know we don’t know. And, there are also the “unknown knowns” … things we don’t know that we know … all those unconscious beliefs and prejudices that determine how we perceive reality and intervene in it. This condition described … when there is important information which if we had, we would use, but because we don’t have it, we don’t at that time see the relevance of gaining it … is something I’ve been painfully aware of and have been subjected to my whole life. It is what I see as the biggest of “big problems”. I believe this to be the root cause of many, if not all, “human causes”. The sustenance of relationships is relating. Can you relate? I knew that you could.


No offense General, but what you've typed here is called "thinking". I understand what you're writing about, but I have trouble seeing the point.

You're lamenting the absence of omniscience. I feel bad to be the one to have to break it to you....but you might have to let this one go. While I believe in the interconnectedness and oneness of the universe, my guess is that it's impossible to know everything.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> My first question is this: Why are we trying to make people think differently? To sell them ideas and products? What's the motivation? Is it altruistic or profit driven? Would leading by example prove to be the most effective solution?


"Is it altruistic" goes back to the argument that there's no altruistic action - everything is done to satisfy something in a person, even if that's to feel better about oneself.

Leading by example might at times work. Or not. Depends on the situation.
For myself, I've given up more on trying to convince that 'we should try it this way, or that way'. Most people seem to be wanting to carry on doing it as they've done. But I don't want them coming back crying to me when they're laid off or had to close their business down or can't make enough money, because they didn't want to change.

Reminds me of a saying a guy once said: Most want things to stay the same, but get better.


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

Considering the present social, political and economic conditions … how we got to this point and where we are going … I’m interested the concept of “the organization”. Governments, businesses, communities, groups/associations, families are all organized initially around the principles of form following function … they are a means to some purposeful ends … they are in a sense emergent, self-organizing human driven systems. Then, something happens … the original means to the original end somehow becomes co-opted by other agendas and the means to an end (organizing and the organization) becomes an end in itself … the form becomes more important than the function … controlling top-down hierarchical networks take over influential bottom-up interactions.

This thread is an emergent, self-organizing network. Individual statements are made triggered by associations, interpretations, expressions and perceptions that are influenced by experiences, memories, thoughts, feelings … philosophies. No response is right or wrong and every response affects every other response, and each is a “piece of the truth”. The “what” and the “how-to” … “the point” is thinking and expressing those thoughts … communicating … experiencing the experiences of the experienced … making the “invisible hand” visible … appreciating and understanding rational self-interest … and in doing so moving from the current situation to a better situation. SlimPickins, moore, P.A. Rocker, gazman, Kiwiman, JustMe, 2buckcanuck, Workaholic, Field General and all others participating and contributing as pieces of the puzzle that is the better view situation.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Field General said:


> Then, something happens … the original means to the original end somehow becomes co-opted by other agendas and the means to an end (organizing and the organization) becomes an end in itself .


In my opinion General, individuals without an actual job "function" and have unproductive positions need to create a means for themselves. Usually they are in the hierarchy and retain their positions by remaining politically active in their orginization by projecting an artificial image of their relevance.
Meaningless jobs with top pay and benefits are the result. I know you know some like this, we all do. The government and big business is full of such positions.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Field General said:


> Abso-freakin-lutely!



Posolutely absitively:jester:


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Field General said:


> The video is priceless. A perfect example of the "Paul Bunyan Syndrome". When I first started hand taping, I had myself convinced, by experience, that I could compete with any banjo taper. But being curious, I bought a banjo and found that I was faster than "I" was as a hand taper by using the banjo. Then, by experience, I had myself convinced that I could compete with any machine taper. But being curious and finally having the funds to purchase a set of tools, I found that I was faster than "I" was as a banjo taper by using the tools. The system of finishing became more redefined and refined. My point is, by shear will, physical effort, and putting the time in, we are capable of doing amazing things. But in a way our strength (determination) becomes our weakness in that we set our minds to do the "impossible" and convince ourselves for a while that this is as good as it gets ... until we go beyond our experience of competing with others and do what's necessary to out do ourselves.


man i got some sayings but can you please give me more info on this Bunyan Syndrome thing

I had Conan the Barbarian Syndrome now Conan from Sameria


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> man i got some sayings but can you please give me more info on this Bunyan Syndrome thing
> 
> I had Conan the Barbarian Syndrome now Conan from Sameria


 There was a post here a year or so back that stuck with me..
John Henry beat the steam shovel..But then he died!

get what i'm sayin Joe?


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Field General said:


> Considering the present social, political and economic conditions … how we got to this point and where we are going … I’m interested the concept of “the organization”. Governments, businesses, communities, groups/associations, families are all organized initially around the principles of form following function … they are a means to some purposeful ends … they are in a sense emergent, self-organizing human driven systems. Then, something happens … the original means to the original end somehow becomes co-opted by other agendas and the means to an end (organizing and the organization) becomes an end in itself … the form becomes more important than the function … controlling top-down hierarchical networks take over influential bottom-up interactions.
> 
> This thread is an emergent, self-organizing network. Individual statements are made triggered by associations, interpretations, expressions and perceptions that are influenced by experiences, memories, thoughts, feelings … philosophies. No response is right or wrong and every response affects every other response, and each is a “piece of the truth”. The “what” and the “how-to” … “the point” is thinking and expressing those thoughts … communicating … experiencing the experiences of the experienced … making the “invisible hand” visible … appreciating and understanding rational self-interest … and in doing so moving from the current situation to a better situation. SlimPickins, moore, P.A. Rocker, gazman, Kiwiman, JustMe, 2buckcanuck, Workaholic, Field General and all others participating and contributing as pieces of the puzzle that is the better view situation.


I thought this was a rather intelligent post, until I seen Kiwiman's name mentioned:whistling2::jester:


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

2buckcanuck said:


> I thought this was a rather intelligent post, until I seen Kiwiman's name mentioned:whistling2::jester:


*Hey fella! *.......what did I ever do to you? :whistling2:


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

The "Paul Bunyan Syndrome" ... The "John Henry Syndrome" ... The effects of living the tall tale ... bigger than life ... can be a strength and a weakness. That which does not kill us, makes us stronger and defines us ... if it does not "kill" us.

"My point is, by shear will, physical effort, and putting the time in, we are capable of doing amazing things. But in a way our strength (determination) becomes our weakness in that we set our minds to do the "impossible" and convince ourselves for a while that this is as good as it gets ... until we go beyond our experience of competing with others and do what's necessary to out do ourselves."

I see two approaches to surviving in this racket ... "Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way" and "Lead, Don't Follow, Don't Get Out of the Way". I chose the later because I valued my independence, my freedom to choose, challenges, problem solving, creating, learning new things, meeting new people, experiencing new experiences ... seeing it as "not just a job but an adventure" ... living the tall tale in an ongoing series of exaggerated events.

Why are you doing "what" you're doing and "how"? What did you do, how did you do it and why? What are some of your stories that seem to cross the line between what's "real" and what's mythical ... tall tales?


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Field General said:


> The "Paul Bunyan Syndrome" ... The "John Henry Syndrome" ... The effects of living the tall tale ... bigger than life ... can be a strength and a weakness. That which does not kill us, makes us stronger and defines us ... if it does not "kill" us.
> 
> "My point is, by shear will, physical effort, and putting the time in, we are capable of doing amazing things. But in a way our strength (determination) becomes our weakness in that we set our minds to do the "impossible" and convince ourselves for a while that this is as good as it gets ... until we go beyond our experience of competing with others and do what's necessary to out do ourselves."
> 
> ...


Sounds scintillating









Now we just need slim or justme to explain to the rest of us, what you just said:whistling2:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> Sounds scintillating
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just interpret it however you want, and then add something more to that interpretation.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

''my freedom to choose, challenges, problem solving, creating, learning new things,''



You left out '' cutting corners ''  [ cheating ]


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> Just interpret it however you want, and then add something more to that interpretation.


Yeah, it's improvisational drywall forum-ing

Note: "Forum-ing" Trademark, Copyright, and Registration belongs to SlimPickins. All rights reserved. Not valid in Indonesia or Wheeling, West Virginia.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

moore said:


> ''my freedom to choose, challenges, problem solving, creating, learning new things,''
> 
> 
> 
> You left out '' cutting corners ''  [ cheating ]


See, I understand what Moore is saying:thumbup:

especially that comment in brackets:whistling2:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> See, I understand what Moore is saying:thumbup:
> 
> especially that comment in brackets:whistling2:


Dude, Every time I see you sheep-shagging yourself over there I die a little inside.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> Dude, Every time I see you sheep-shagging yourself over there I die a little inside.


Those would be great words for a country and western song:thumbup:


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Not a tall tale.... The perfect house I once hung solo around a 200 sheeter. Screwing, not a single missed stud, no screws up or botched box. No broke corners, mashed edges.
Got a big atta boy from the taper.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Not a tall tale.... The perfect house I once hung solo around a 200 sheeter. Screwing, not a single missed stud, no screws up or botched box. No broke corners, mashed edges.
> Got a big atta boy from the taper.


Almost reads like you were 'in a zone', P.A.

That brings to mind some thoughts that Might give something towards General's last comments about 'shear will and effort accomplishing amazing things', and his comments of "Why are you doing "what" you're doing and "how"? What did you do, how did you do it and why? What are some of your stories that seem to cross the line between what's "real" and what's mythical ... tall tales":

As well as using whatever force that can be found in 'shear will and effort', there's what I might call the 'connectiveness' or 'click' approach - such as 'becoming one with the mud', or 'one' with whatever you're doing.

Then there's the 'objective' approach - being able to sort of 'stand back' from what you're doing, and objectively/unemotionally watch and guide what you're doing, that can bring on a 'preciseness'.

The last one reminds me of the best finisher we have. Doesn't move fast, doesn't get upset about the work, doesn't get emotionally involved in the work, doesn't seem to 'push' against the work, or 'fight' with the work. Just sort of seems to stand back, while guiding himself, his arm, to putting on the mud. (With things like bead, I see him get a little more involved at times.)

The word 'fluid' comes to mind, with no really seeming wasted movements. A pleasure to watch, and to have on a job.
As one of the other lead finishers said to me not long ago, "When ____ shows up, things happen".

I maybe should mention that he's a P&Ker. But maybe a bit of an anomaly.
And as with most, hand coating is one aspect of our work. Lots of auto tool work and the like being done as well.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

''fluid'' = I've been doing this chit long enough ta know!!!:thumbsup:

now get out of my way!


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Why the hurry, moore. Run out of bottles to pee in?


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

JustMe said:


> Just interpret it however you want, and then add something more to that interpretation.


Not altruistic sacrifice but instead humorous, inspired, enlightened investment in appreciation and understanding … exploring the meanings of meanings ... posolutely absitively … a connectiveness-click-approach … becoming one with the significance and relevance of the conversation … making it happen by allowing it to happen by creating and sustaining the conditions necessary for it to happen … in a sense cheating by not following the conventional rules ... not forcing it but going with the flow … fluid … fluid focus and/or focused fluidity. Experiencing the experiences of the experienced through conversations that matter. Thinking, interpreting those thoughts, expressing them, and then, experiencing the feedback, the unintended consequences. Conversations that are more like jazz than orchestrated performances. Emergent, self-organizing experiences … spontaneous, noodling, improvisation, Rorschach, free-form-word-and-image-association, seeding the word and image cloud and making it rain. Abso-freakin-lutely!


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

Authentic forum-ing.


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## 800PoundGuerrilla (Nov 24, 2013)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Not a tall tale.... The perfect house I once hung solo around a 200 sheeter. Screwing, not a single missed stud, no screws up or botched box. No broke corners, mashed edges.
> Got a big atta boy from the taper.


and getting more done in less time by appreciating and understanding the trade that came before you and the trade that came after you ... that's the definition of piecework that I experienced in the 1980's ... the age of "Total Quality Management" ... the age of W. Edwards Deming and "Profound Knowledge" ... the age of "Reaganomics" that were the conditions necessary for the "independent erector-installer-applicator" to survive and flourish.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Field General said:


> Not altruistic sacrifice but instead humorous, inspired, enlightened investment in appreciation and understanding … exploring the meanings of meanings ... posolutely absitively … a connectiveness-click-approach … becoming one with the significance and relevance of the conversation … making it happen by allowing it to happen by creating and sustaining the conditions necessary for it to happen … in a sense cheating by not following the conventional rules ... not forcing it but going with the flow … fluid … fluid focus and/or focused fluidity. Experiencing the experiences of the experienced through conversations that matter. Thinking, interpreting those thoughts, expressing them, and then, experiencing the feedback, the unintended consequences. Conversations that are more like jazz than orchestrated performances. Emergent, self-organizing experiences … spontaneous, noodling, improvisation, Rorschach, free-form-word-and-image-association, seeding the word and image cloud and making it rain. Abso-freakin-lutely!


Miles Davis skrawnks into a bar....

Two conversations going on, one a dialogue of human powered systems and another, a commentary on the approach of the approach (typing in sound bytes is not unfamiliar.....I used to use the same style.....to convey the bits...and pieces...in a way that felt more like.....thinking)

Why do we do what we do? Stepping beyond the boundary of drywall and looking at the entire system...Why? We play a game of money in a world of infinite possibility. We have other options. We see how we are being manipulated and remain docile and domesticated, believing that we "run the show" because of the minute measure of independence we are "allowed" to demonstrate to foster the illusion of freedom while maintaining the place within the structure. 

Smear compound brave champions, wrestle rock and make homes. The bigger the better......:mellow:

(forgive me my anti-paradigm rant, I just woke up and still stink of the fluff of dreams)


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> Miles Davis skrawnks into a bar....
> 
> Two conversations going on, one a dialogue of human powered systems and another, a commentary on the approach of the approach (typing in sound bytes is not unfamiliar.....I used to use the same style.....to convey the bits...and pieces...in a way that felt more like.....thinking)
> 
> ...


Pretty eloquent. For a drywaller.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> Pretty eloquent. For a drywaller.


Thank you.....I think.

A bit of a double edged sword, that comment is.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> Thank you.....I think.
> 
> A bit of a double edged sword, that comment is.


I'm not great at giving high praise.

But strike the 'pretty', last sentence, and the smiley.

It was very well said. Expressive. Distinctive. Pointed. Memorable. Thoughtful. Thought provoking. Eloquent. Wish I could run across that level of writing all the time.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Field General said:


> Not altruistic sacrifice but instead humorous, inspired, enlightened investment in appreciation and understanding … exploring the meanings of meanings ... posolutely absitively … a connectiveness-click-approach … becoming one with the significance and relevance of the conversation … making it happen by allowing it to happen by creating and sustaining the conditions necessary for it to happen … in a sense cheating by not following the conventional rules ... not forcing it but going with the flow … fluid … fluid focus and/or focused fluidity. Experiencing the experiences of the experienced through conversations that matter. Thinking, interpreting those thoughts, expressing them, and then, experiencing the feedback, the unintended consequences. Conversations that are more like jazz than orchestrated performances. Emergent, self-organizing experiences … spontaneous, noodling, improvisation, Rorschach, free-form-word-and-image-association, seeding the word and image cloud and making it rain. Abso-freakin-lutely!


Same for you, General. Nice how you tied things together, in your usual distinctive, expressive, thought provoking way.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> I'm not great at giving high praise.
> 
> But strike the 'pretty', last sentence, and the smiley.
> 
> It was very well said. Expressive. Distinctive. Pointed. Memorable. Thoughtful. Thought provoking. Eloquent. Wish I could run across that level of writing all the time.


Well then, thank you very much. That is high praise in deed (the deed of typing, that is).

You caught me at a rare moment. I was making an effort to rise to the challenge put forth by the good General.....I used to write more frequently than I now do (mostly when I was :yes. I actually had to put an effort into writing my early morning rant :laughing:

:notworthy:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> :notworthy:


:no:, :no:. The :notworthy: is all mine. :notworthy:


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