# Switching from knives to trowel



## CatD7

I decided that I like using the knives and pan for my first coat, and using my hawk and trowels for the subsequent coats.


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## 2buckcanuck

That would be a smart and intelligent way of doing things, Since that's how Most Canucks do things.









I know how much you love us Canucks, and want to be more like us







:whistling2:


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## Bazooka-Joe

[/IMG]


CatD7 said:


> I decided that I like using the knives and pan for my first coat, and using my hawk and trowels for the subsequent coats.


Trowel is stronger than a knife andwon't bend as easy I use trowel only


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## PrecisionTaping

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Trowel is stronger than a knife andwon't bend as easy I use trowel only


Same.


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## CatD7

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Trowel is stronger than a knife andwon't bend as easy I use trowel only





I like my Marshlltown curved trowel.


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## betterdrywall

I'll stick to my pan and knives ,, Too old to be tring to swtich ,, I have tried using a hawk and trowle for coating.. Just seemed slower to me. I'll use the H/T for texture.


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## CatD7

betterdrywall said:


> I'll stick to my pan and knives ,, Too old to be tring to swtich ,, I have tried using a hawk and trowle for coating.. Just seemed slower to me. I'll use the H/T for texture.




The curve in the trowel is what turned me on.


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## PrecisionTaping

CatD7 said:


> The curve in the trowel is what turned me on.


Curve trowel!? Ewww...lol!
I have one curve trowel, that's it!
I only use it if I'm not running my 10" flat box.
Like if I only have half a basement to finish or something. Then I'll use my 10" curve. Only my first pass though. Then I skim with a flat trowel.
And the curve in my trowel is very minimal.
Be careful CatD7, curve's tend to hump out allot.


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## chris

betterdrywall said:


> I'll stick to my pan and knives ,, Too old to be tring to swtich ,, I have tried using a hawk and trowle for coating.. Just seemed slower to me. I'll use the H/T for texture.


 They are slower to me as well. I started with H/T and swithed to pan and knife 15 yrs ago and wont go back. Texturing is my only use for them now... and to cover mud bucket


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## saskataper

I to switched to H&T a while back and I'll never go back. It was slow and messy for the first while but now that I've got the hang of it it's faster and a better end result. I finally found a couple curved trowels, a 11" marshalltown with very slight curve and a 12" Kraft with about 1/16" curve, I love them for filling bead and for first coat where I can't use my box. I've also got an old 12" that I found at a garage sale thats got close to a 1/4" curve in it but thats just for emergencies like really bad butts.
I really want a 10" curved but the selection of trowels around here is pretty limited for some reason, I guess I'll have to order one but its one of the things you want to check out before you buy.


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## CatD7

I gots this one in the 16" size from allwall. The curve in it is perfect! I also have a flat one for certain sitiations.


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## CatD7

betterdrywall said:


> I'll stick to my pan and knives ,, Too old to be tring to swtich ,, I have tried using a hawk and trowle for coating.. Just seemed slower to me. I'll use the H/T for texture.



Hey, if it's working for you, that's what matters.:thumbsup:


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## 2buckcanuck

saskataper said:


> I to switched to H&T a while back and I'll never go back. It was slow and messy for the first while but now that I've got the hang of it it's faster and a better end result. I finally found a couple curved trowels, a 11" marshalltown with very slight curve and a 12" Kraft with about 1/16" curve, I love them for filling bead and for first coat where I can't use my box. I've also got an old 12" that I found at a garage sale thats got close to a 1/4" curve in it but thats just for emergencies like really bad butts.
> I really want a 10" curved but the selection of trowels around here is pretty limited for some reason, I guess I'll have to order one but its one of the things you want to check out before you buy.


I got a 10" curve trowel for you, or I should say 2bjr does, but he always uses mine. I told him he should give you his today, since he never uses it, but he got all like this on me









So send me your address, and I will send it to you:yes:

Can post a pic of it if you want:thumbup:


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## saskataper

Wow that would be fantastic.:thumb up:
I must have built up some good karma somewhere, first a visit from Joe which was better than a personal visit from Santa and now a 2buck trowel whats next, maybe Aaron will show up with some toys.


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## Stopper

CatD7 said:


> I like my Marshlltown curved trowel.


I bought a curved trowel once, house I was doing had a bad load of drywall, there was a ridged along the tapered edge just before it dipped into the recess, needed to cover that ridge on my first fill...after that job was done I never picked it up again...if a flat trowel can't do it your muds probably too thin...


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## CatD7

Stopper said:


> I bought a curved trowel once, house I was doing had a bad load of drywall, there was a ridged along the tapered edge just before it dipped into the recess, needed to cover that ridge on my first fill...after that job was done I never picked it up again...if a flat trowel can't do it your muds probably too thin...



My curved trowel works quite well for ME. Your results may vary.


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## SlimPickins

I'm going to start calling my knives "spatulas".


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## Stopper

CatD7 said:


> My curved trowel works quite well for ME. Your results may vary.


 Oh don't get me wrong, the curved trowel helped alot first coating the faulty drywall, but on normal drywall I didn't see the need to use it, when a flat trowel is far more versatile.


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## CatD7

Stopper said:


> Oh don't get me wrong, the curved trowel helped alot first coating the faulty drywall, but on normal drywall I didn't see the need to use it, when a flat trowel is far more versatile.





I do own and use flat rowels from Marshaltown as well.


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## DLSdrywall

I only use a straight trowels only I have a 11 inch SS Marshalltown, 14 inch permashape SS trowel (which i use for everything) and 16 inch SS trowel for bad butts. 10 and 12 inch knives which i use for beads. I always found trowels to be to slow for doing beads for me:thumbsup:


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## harvey randall

*hawk and trowel*

mag hawk only way to go in my opinion. trowel 14 " cove for flats and metal. but i got another one soaking in water and work it some times to stress the metal out, just in case this little sweet heart goes away. love cove for floating metal. top and bottom corners- aint it cool. only use flat trowel on flush second and first coat on butts. try this- to disappear a butt- rock your trowel (or knife) i can just spread so much more mud so much faster then with a knife-but thats me. if the butt rocks a little- run a trowel down the left of the tape and the down the right of the tape. feather both 4 ft runs and also both ends. then take sweet baby girl 24 " wipe down knife and run it down the middle. no laps no nothin- if its a really bad but double and run the 24" down each side- wipeing 24" before yoe wipe again. in smooth- two coats maybe one. use a stiff 4 inch knife to sand laps and crossovers, and for god sake keep a file in the window, to keep that knife sharp. cuts down on 75 % of the sanding. especially if you leave your laps in the same place all the time. i miss tradeing the tricks of the trade. this place has been a haven.


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## CatD7

harvey randall said:


> mag hawk only way to go in my opinion. trowel 14 " cove for flats and metal. but i got another one soaking in water and work it some times to stress the metal out, just in case this little sweet heart goes away. love cove for floating metal. top and bottom corners- aint it cool. only use flat trowel on flush second and first coat on butts. try this- to disappear a butt- rock your trowel (or knife) i can just spread so much more mud so much faster then with a knife-but thats me. if the butt rocks a little- run a trowel down the left of the tape and the down the right of the tape. feather both 4 ft runs and also both ends. then take sweet baby girl 24 " wipe down knife and run it down the middle. no laps no nothin- if its a really bad but double and run the 24" down each side- wipeing 24" before yoe wipe again. in smooth- two coats maybe one. use a stiff 4 inch knife to sand laps and crossovers, and for god sake keep a file in the window, to keep that knife sharp. cuts down on 75 % of the sanding. especially if you leave your laps in the same place all the time. i miss tradeing the tricks of the trade. this place has been a haven.



I just got a new magnesium hawk to replace my aluminum one.


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## SlimPickins

CatD7 said:


> I just got a new magnesium hawk to replace my aluminum one.


I like the mags, but I think they wear faster, which means I have to work a tiny bit harder to clear the blade. 

If you were to ask me if I file my hawk down to make the edges square again I would probably do this------>:blink::no:


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## harvey randall

*mag- i hear ya!*

but since 06- mag alloy is 35% lighter-20-40% stronger. no cha cha chatter- cut her down once a year- stead of 3, its a thought- most times no-one in industry consorts on this edge. we find it out on our own. what a waste of time. sorry got interupted-http://www.pandora.com/# take care now. harve.


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## Drywall_King

2buckcanuck said:


> That would be a smart and intelligent way of doing things, Since that's how Most Canucks do things.
> 
> 
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> 
> I know how much you love us Canucks, and want to be more like us
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> :whistling2:


Yes we all love the Vanouver Canucks..... Even Down Under i rareley miss a game ohhhh thank you Nhl.com


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## Drywall_King

CatD7 said:


> I like my Marshlltown curved trowel.


So does my father


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## dieselman350

Flat trowel only for me an a kraft golden stainless elite series are the best trowel money can buy in my opinion perfectly flat they are actually plaster trowels 
:thumbup:


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## icerock drywall

I like my pan:donatello:


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## BPTaper

In almost 20 years as a finisher,Ive never been trained on a hawk and trowel...Im such a loser


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## thefinisher

BPTaper said:


> In almost 20 years as a finisher,Ive never been trained on a hawk and trowel...Im such a loser


Probably because most people evolved to use a pan and knife. Hawk and Trowel is for plaster IMO. Sure you can use it on the flats and butts, but a pan and knife is used for everything. A properly trained pan and knife person will be faster and be able to go farther. But, who really cares as long as it looks good :thumbsup:


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## BPTaper

thefinisher said:


> Probably because most people evolved to use a pan and knife. Hawk and Trowel is for plaster IMO. Sure you can use it on the flats and butts, but a pan and knife is used for everything. A properly trained pan and knife person will be faster and be able to go farther. But, who really cares as long as it looks good :thumbsup:


 Lucky for me,I'm too dumb to use a H&T anyhoo


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## DLSdrywall

thefinisher said:


> Probably because most people evolved to use a pan and knife. Hawk and Trowel is for plaster IMO. Sure you can use it on the flats and butts, but a pan and knife is used for everything. A properly trained pan and knife person will be faster and be able to go farther. But, who really cares as long as it looks good :thumbsup:


IMO it's the person behind the tools, hawk and trowel, pan and knife, mixing bowl and spatcula, it's the person weilding the tools. It's more knowledge and fussiness that makes for a quality job. Speed is a bi-product:yes:


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## BPTaper

I agree...I can run a butt with a 3inch knife if I had too:thumbsup:


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## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> Probably because most people evolved to use a pan and knife. Hawk and Trowel is for plaster IMO. Sure you can use it on the flats and butts, but a pan and knife is used for everything. A properly trained pan and knife person will be faster and be able to go farther. But, who really cares as long as it looks good :thumbsup:


We evolved to pan and knife ?????









drywall became king over plaster after the second world war, there was a huge building boom going on, and the skilled trades (plasterers) could not keep up. That brought drywall down in price, time restraints down, and any Tom, D1ck or Harry could be hired to do taping, with minimal training. A lot of those early tapers, were painters, and used what tools they had at hand.

I once asked a older DWC, who has seen hundreds of tapers in his life time, who he thought was better and faster. I could not finish my question, before he spat out the words Hawk and trowel. But one of his main points was, if a house had a ton of beads or required a ton of hand work, he sent the H&T guy in.

Not going to knock someone, till they think their better (when their not) Even I started out with P&K, till I evolved :whistling2:. Most times it's the comfort level why a choice is made, meaning one picks up on one method, and they stay with it. Others, it's what they were taught and so on......

Plus answer me this, If P&K is so much faster, then why don't stucco and plaster guys use them. If you can go faster and farther with them


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## moore

Hawk @ knife ..It's how I was taught .

I have never tried the pan . but after watching one of 2bucks vids 
with 2bj wipe his flat tapes with the pan held close to the wall to catch his mud ...I may have to give the pan a go on the tape coat.:thumbsup:


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## moore

BTW....A hawk makes less trips to the bucket :whistling2:


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## DLSdrywall

I use h&t when i tape it's pan and 8" knife. IMO a pan is good for wiping tape and putting water in my bucket lol


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## bmitch

i started with a machine taper out of the gate , just used knives,as yrs. went by i just found i really did,nt have any reason to pick up a trowel. i,m pretty sure i could make a real mess trying to learn .i,ve done alot of stucco also,but still i stuck to pot and knife.


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## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> We evolved to pan and knife ?????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drywall became king over plaster after the second world war, there was a huge building boom going on, and the skilled trades (plasterers) could not keep up. That brought drywall down in price, time restraints down, and any Tom, D1ck or Harry could be hired to do taping, with minimal training. A lot of those early tapers, were painters, and used what tools they had at hand.
> 
> I once asked a older DWC, who has seen hundreds of tapers in his life time, who he thought was better and faster. I could not finish my question, before he spat out the words Hawk and trowel. But one of his main points was, if a house had a ton of beads or required a ton of hand work, he sent the H&T guy in.
> 
> Not going to knock someone, till they think their better (when their not) Even I started out with P&K, till I evolved :whistling2:. Most times it's the comfort level why a choice is made, meaning one picks up on one method, and they stay with it. Others, it's what they were taught and so on......
> 
> Plus answer me this, If P&K is so much faster, then why don't stucco and plaster guys use them. If you can go faster and farther with them


I guess my point was that the trade we do is best fit for the drywall knife/knives as apposed to a trowel. Yes a trowel is a productful piece of equipment when used by a skilled person, but so is a knife/knives. However the use of a drywall knife has a wider variety of uses than a trowel when it comes to finishing. Try running your trowel in the angles and see how proficient it is when compared to a proper knife. Try to wipe tape down as effective. I do state that this is more of a comparison to a hand finishers, not automated tools obviously. Also, a pan can hold more mud in it much more effectively. Try holding the contents of a full 14" Pan full of mud on a hawk and expect it to be as easy to work with. Stucco and plaster guys use them because their system hasn't changed, where as ours did. We went from plaster to drywall/finishing which better suits the use of a knife. My statements are mostly directed to the use of a knife vs. trowel as opposed to a pan vs. hawk as my dad is a knife/hawk person. If you don't think the trade evolved then you are mistaken. The use of a knife is better suited to our trade without question. The flexibility of a knife is what makes it a better choice to our profession. Yes a trowel is just as effective at parts of the work, but are you going to hand finish your nails and angles with it? No shot any trowel person can run nails and angles by hand as fast as I can with my 6" knife.


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## West

I use hawk and trowel for all coating, i think I might have converted at least 20 pan and knife tapers to H&T, never ever pressured any of them into it but when they watched how more efficient it is they always bugged me to train them on it. I use a Curry 13"X 4.5" trowel and a 14" Mag hawk for all my coating.


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## moore

thefinisher said:


> I guess my point was that the trade we do is best fit for the drywall knife/knives as apposed to a trowel. Yes a trowel is a productful piece of equipment when used by a skilled person, but so is a knife/knives. However the use of a drywall knife has a wider variety of uses than a trowel when it comes to finishing. Try running your trowel in the angles and see how proficient it is when compared to a proper knife. Try to wipe tape down as effective. I do state that this is more of a comparison to a hand finishers, not automated tools obviously. Also, a pan can hold more mud in it much more effectively. Try holding the contents of a full 14" Pan full of mud on a hawk and expect it to be as easy to work with. Stucco and plaster guys use them because their system hasn't changed, where as ours did. We went from plaster to drywall/finishing which better suits the use of a knife. My statements are mostly directed to the use of a knife vs. trowel as opposed to a pan vs. hawk as my dad is a knife/hawk person. If you don't think the trade evolved then you are mistaken. The use of a knife is better suited to our trade without question. The flexibility of a knife is what makes it a better choice to our profession. Yes a trowel is just as effective at parts of the work, but are you going to hand finish your nails and angles with it? No shot any trowel person can run nails and angles by hand as fast as I can with my 6" knife.


 YOU run your your angles with a 6'' :blink:That's alot of ripples to sand out!!! Speaking of ripples ....A broad knife will leave ripples..where as a trowel will leave nearly none..

slap that 14'' pan full of mud on my hawk x 2 ,,and watch me run

I have a cousin In S Carolina that [email protected] his angles with a 6'' 
must be a Carolina thing...imo It's over kill.. The tape coat on the angles is my filler ..the [email protected] on the angles are a thin skim with a 5''


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## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> If you don't think the trade evolved then you are mistaken.


Something can evolve 'worse', as in 'They improved it worse'. In this instance, I'm applying it to tools. 



thefinisher said:


> No shot any trowel person can run nails and angles by hand as fast as I can with my 6" knife.


So you've worked with *every* trowel person out there? :whistling2: 

As far as I can remember, any h&t guys I've worked with used smaller knives for some things, like nail spotting and angles, when not using angle flushers in the corners.



Although I'm P&K, if I was going to stay in this trade full time much longer, I'd take up H&Ting some, to give it a try for some things.

I'm blaming this whole thing on DeAnne, from Advance Equipment. Their website says her granddad started the knife thing. Made the 1st taping knife it says. Wonder if he should've stopped at that size, instead of building them bigger?
But then what would the h&t guys who've blown out their elbows have used? :blink:


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## gazman

I am out of practice because of boxes. But having ran h&t for 15 years I cant see how a p&k would be able to keep up on bead and seams. My challenge is do a vid using your p&k running.

# first and second coat on a 8 foot bead.
# Block and skim coat on a 12 foot wall and ceiling seam.

Post that and let the games begin.:yes:


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## moore

gazman said:


> I am out of practice because of boxes. But having ran h&t for 15 years I cant see how a p&n would be able to keep up on bead and seams. My challenge is do a vid using your p&n running.
> 
> # first and second coat on a 8 foot bead.
> # Block and skim coat on a 12 foot wall and ceiling seam.
> 
> Post that and let the games begin.:yes:


 bookmark!


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## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> I guess my point was that the trade we do is best fit for the drywall knife/knives as apposed to a trowel. Yes a trowel is a productful piece of equipment when used by a skilled person, but so is a knife/knives. However the use of a drywall knife has a wider variety of uses than a trowel when it comes to finishing. Try running your trowel in the angles and see how proficient it is when compared to a proper knife. Try to wipe tape down as effective. I do state that this is more of a comparison to a hand finishers, not automated tools obviously. Also, a pan can hold more mud in it much more effectively. Try holding the contents of a full 14" Pan full of mud on a hawk and expect it to be as easy to work with. Stucco and plaster guys use them because their system hasn't changed, where as ours did. We went from plaster to drywall/finishing which better suits the use of a knife. My statements are mostly directed to the use of a knife vs. trowel as opposed to a pan vs. hawk as my dad is a knife/hawk person. If you don't think the trade evolved then you are mistaken. The use of a knife is better suited to our trade without question. The flexibility of a knife is what makes it a better choice to our profession. Yes a trowel is just as effective at parts of the work, but are you going to hand finish your nails and angles with it? No shot any trowel person can run nails and angles by hand as fast as I can with my 6" knife.


This is one big WTF post, even after reading it ten times

The thread is about going from P&K to H&T, so reason would dictate that for the knife to be comparable to the trowel. I think were talking a 12" knife. Yet some how you bring in a smaller knife size into the picture. So if you want to brag about how a 12"(read that, a 12" knife) can do screws, wipe angle tapes, do 3 ways, wipe tapes on so on, then game on. A trowel would perform better than your one sided 12" knife, considering a trowel has 4 sides to work from, Two 12" sides and two 4.5" sides, sorta like a size of a four inch KNIFE eh':whistling2:

Yours is a blanket statement. I could say a saw is the most widely used tool on the job site, but what type of saw, a skill saw, hand saw, drywall saw, jig saw. If your going to compare trowel and knife, then lets keep it to what tasks a 12" trowel or 12" knife are going to do, things like, flats, butts, beads, skimming out walls.... unless you want to race coating bead against me, using a 4" knife. Lets stick to which proper tool to use with the task at hand.

And a few more points

A 14"x4.5"x4.5" mud pan will hold less mud than a 14"x14" hawk. I can get 4 heaping scoops of mud onto my hawk using a 6" knife. Lets see you stuff that much mud in your mud pan. best advantage of a mud pan over a hawk is when dealing with runny mud. I think that statement is self explanatory.

No P&K or H&T have made this trade evolve, it's the machines that did, a long with the material. First machine was the nail spotter, but if you look at the principals of the box (7,8,10,12etc) they follow that of the trowel. From the focal point to where the pressure is applied, the arched/curved blade, sounds like a tool that evolved form the trowel.

There's my 2 bucks worth:yes:


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## mudslingr

gazman said:


> I am out of practice because of boxes. But having ran h&t for 15 years I cant see how a p&n would be able to keep up on bead and seams. My challenge is do a vid using your p&n running.
> 
> # first and second coat on a 8 foot bead.
> # Block and skim coat on a 12 foot wall and ceiling seam.
> 
> Post that and let the games begin.:yes:


 Sounds like a great challenge but I already know which would win. Hawk and trowel hands down. I have both applications mastered but will never fool myself into thinking that pan and knife covers more in less time.:no:


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## 2buckcanuck

West said:


> I use hawk and trowel for all coating, i think I might have converted at least 20 pan and knife tapers to H&T, never ever pressured any of them into it but when they watched how more efficient it is they always bugged me to train them on it.


Same here, can't say I converted 20, but I did with a few. And if not converted, most were like holy chit when they would watch you, especially when doing horizontal bead or work over your head. Then others would say they tried, but it hurt their wrist, which is odd, b/c a larger knife (over 8") will start to hurt my wrist.

But on the flip side, I was on a Union job, Where they only used the H&T, I used the pan and knife, just to piss them off,,,, and boy did it ever:blink:


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## SlimPickins

thefinisher said:


> I guess my point was that the trade we do is best fit for the drywall knife/knives as apposed to a trowel. Yes a trowel is a productful piece of equipment when used by a skilled person, but so is a knife/knives. However the use of a drywall knife has a wider variety of uses than a trowel when it comes to finishing. Try running your trowel in the angles and see how proficient it is when compared to a proper knife. Try to wipe tape down as effective. I do state that this is more of a comparison to a hand finishers, not automated tools obviously. Also, a pan can hold more mud in it much more effectively. Try holding the contents of a full 14" Pan full of mud on a hawk and expect it to be as easy to work with. Stucco and plaster guys use them because their system hasn't changed, where as ours did. We went from plaster to drywall/finishing which better suits the use of a knife. My statements are mostly directed to the use of a knife vs. trowel as opposed to a pan vs. hawk as my dad is a knife/hawk person. If you don't think the trade evolved then you are mistaken. The use of a knife is better suited to our trade without question. The flexibility of a knife is what makes it a better choice to our profession. Yes a trowel is just as effective at parts of the work, but are you going to hand finish your nails and angles with it? No shot any trowel person can run nails and angles by hand as fast as I can with my 6" knife.


Habbity Jibbity flubbity floo.:thumbsup:


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## JustMe

2buckcanuck said:


> And if not converted, most were like holy chit when they would watch you, especially when doing horizontal bead or work over your head.


Although I've worked with H&Ters, I can't remember seeing one that was 'holy chit' faster. Not when I looked after at the level of quality and add on work that some of the faster H&Ters left behind, and compared things overall with some P&Kers..

Anyone in the h&t crowd willing to video a coating routine? Maybe convert a few P&Kers over, and silence the rest, now and when they show up later? 

And maybe no 'powered by ADHD, or crack', or 'I'm on camera, so I'm going to go faster than usual' ones? (Fastest P&Ker I've worked with was a crackhead. But very nice work. When he showed up.)

Did anyone post something like that already?


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## 2buckcanuck

JustMe said:


> Did anyone post something like that already?


:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## JustMe

2buckcanuck said:


> :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


Do tell(?)

Are you meaning 2bjr's ones?

He's normal? 

Maybe something a little more than a couple bead? Or your 'I'm moving slow because I'm talking and teaching' ones?


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## mudslingr

JustMe said:


> Although I've worked with H&Ters, I can't remember seeing one that was 'holy chit' faster. Not when I looked after at the level of quality and add on work that some of the faster H&Ters left behind, and compared things overall with some P&Kers..
> 
> Anyone in the h&t crowd willing to video a coating routine? Maybe convert a few P&Kers over, and silence the rest, now and when they show up later?
> 
> And maybe no 'powered by ADHD, or crack', or 'I'm on camera, so I'm going to go faster than usual' ones? (Fastest P&Ker I've worked with was a crackhead. But very nice work. When he showed up.)
> 
> Did anyone post something like that already?


We need some criterion though. On first coat of 90° bead.

1. - 12" knife or trowel

2. - Fully returned bead such as a walk through between rooms. 
3'-6' wide

3. - No water added to mud. Mixed up is ok.


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## gazman

Here is a teaching one.:yes:
All rights belong to Mudslingr. :thumbsup:


----------



## JustMe

mudslingr said:


> We need some criterion though. On first coat of 90° bead.
> 
> 1. - 12" knife or trowel
> 
> 2. - Fully returned bead such as a walk through between rooms.
> 3'-6' wide
> 
> 3. - No water added to mud. Mixed up is ok.


Whatever works for you, mudslingr. As far as I'm concerned, you could coat whole walls, ceilings, at a time if you'd like. 1st coat, 2nd coat, ......

I'm not sure quite what you're meaning by point #1. But I was thinking just H&Ters doing their thing. If someone with a knife wants to use those for a benchmark, to compare and maybe show their stuff against, that would be their choice.


----------



## mudslingr

I was thinking for those who can use both to post a vid of themselves using each application on the same kind of bead set up just to see the time difference. Just a test. I don't care how long it takes anyone. Just do your best and see which you do quicker. We can compare later.
A standard eight foot bead is too easy. That's all. Not looking to start a war.:thumbsup:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

JustMe said:


> Do tell(?)
> 
> Are you meaning 2bjr's ones?
> 
> He's normal?
> 
> Maybe something a little more than a couple bead? Or your 'I'm moving slow because I'm talking and teaching' ones?


2bjrs one, think it was our very 1st vid, it became more of a instructural video for him, as I pointed out a lot of things he did wrong, and he did:yes:. 

And it was a challenge vid, for a P&N taper to take him on, but no one did, and I bet no one will again.:whistling2:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Holy mudslingr, you have 63,000 views on this vid:blink:, but I wanted to post it, so Moose boy can hear what you say at the very beginning of your vid






Second vid is some of Moose boys hired hands:whistling2:


----------



## Arey85

KNIFE & TROWEL!!! WoooHooo I'm all alone :-(


----------



## JustMe

mudslingr said:


> I was thinking for those who can use both to post a vid of themselves using each application on the same kind of bead set up just to see the time difference. Just a test. I don't care how long it takes anyone. Just do your best and see which you do quicker. We can compare later.
> A standard eight foot bead is too easy. That's all. Not looking to start a war.:thumbsup:


I'm not sure if those who can use both would be a balanced test. I'm thinking that most any of those would be using H&T most often, and would've left the knives behind, except for smaller things.
Even if they're not 'holy chit' faster with H&T than they are with a knife, I'm thinking most anyone should be noticeably faster than they were with a knife for coating flats, butts, bead, once they got their skills up enough.


On your previous point #3 -


mudslingr said:


> 3. - No water added to mud. Mixed up is ok.



I saw you mentioning knives/adding water in the video of yours that gaz posted. I have my own ways of dealing with added water, to minimize its effect to where I can get a smooth 1st coat with P&K.
But if no water did become part of the criteria, any brand of mud acceptable for both H&T and P&K? How about 2nd coat? Water okay then?

With some muds I'm familiar with, a K&Per would more so be at a disadvantage. Like Synko's light muds that we've used a lot of.
But ProRoc light mud, I've used with no water for 1st coat, especially bead.

Even though I add some water to it, I usually like the Synko better for 1st coat on bead (unless they're messing with the formula too much at times), especially if the bead wasn't put on as tight as it could've been, and needs more fill.
Some others I work with like the ProRoc even for that.

And then there's Synko's new UltraLight AP that I had a chance to try some of awhile ago. Very nice mud to work with using a knife, even with very little water added. If memory serves, could've worked it well enough without water, for especially 1st coat, using P&K.
Saskataper started a thread on it a bit ago, saying he loved it. I don't know if he H&T'd it on, or P&K'd it on.


----------



## JustMe

2buckcanuck said:


> 2bjrs one, think it was our very 1st vid, it became more of a instructural video for him, as I pointed out a lot of things he did wrong, and he did:yes:.
> 
> And it was a challenge vid, for a P&N taper to take him on, but no one did, and I bet no one will again.:whistling2:


I know a crackhead P&Ker who'd maybe take him on. If I could find him. 

Don't know if he'd do as well as 2bjr, though. It's been awhile for me to remember just how fast he could be on such things, when he wanted to be.

Quality comparison - how the 1st coat affects what comes after, like the 2nd and maybe 3rd coat; can how the 1st coat was done do away with the need for a 3rd coat at times; drying times needed for each coat, based on how it was done; sanding time needed between coats, and the final sand; the amount of checkout; clean up needed; potential callbacks - that's what I also look at, when it comes to speed. A slower 1st coat can end up being a faster 1st coat, when all factors are considered.


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> YOU run your your angles with a 6'' :blink:That's alot of ripples to sand out!!! Speaking of ripples ....A broad knife will leave ripples..where as a trowel will leave nearly none..
> 
> slap that 14'' pan full of mud on my hawk x 2 ,,and watch me run
> 
> I have a cousin In S Carolina that [email protected] his angles with a 6''
> must be a Carolina thing...imo It's over kill.. The tape coat on the angles is my filler ..the [email protected] on the angles are a thin skim with a 5''


Well a 5-6" knife is fine for the angles. BTW... zero ripples in my work :thumbsup:. I don't run the whole width of the 6 on the angles so it probably ends up being 5". The whole ripple thing is irrelevant as that has to do with how you angle your blade and how strong you are. The ripple comes from your body struggling to push alot/thicker mud. If you have the proper strength, then there will be no ripples.


----------



## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> Something can evolve 'worse', as in 'They improved it worse'. In this instance, I'm applying it to tools.
> 
> 
> 
> So you've worked with *every* trowel person out there? :whistling2:
> 
> As far as I can remember, any h&t guys I've worked with used smaller knives for some things, like nail spotting and angles, when not using angle flushers in the corners.
> 
> 
> 
> Although I'm P&K, if I was going to stay in this trade full time much longer, I'd take up H&Ting some, to give it a try for some things.
> 
> I'm blaming this whole thing on DeAnne, from Advance Equipment. Their website says her granddad started the knife thing. Made the 1st taping knife it says. Wonder if he should've stopped at that size, instead of building them bigger?
> But then what would the h&t guys who've blown out their elbows have used? :blink:


 
That was kind of my point, Even Hawk/trowel guys need knives to do parts of the job. You simply cannot beat the knife.... you need them. Finishers don't need a trowel, but they need knives. Nobody is going to run angles and nails with their trowel which is where the knife does a great job.


----------



## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> This is one big WTF post, even after reading it ten times
> 
> The thread is about going from P&K to H&T, so reason would dictate that for the knife to be comparable to the trowel. I think were talking a 12" knife. Yet some how you bring in a smaller knife size into the picture. So if you want to brag about how a 12"(read that, a 12" knife) can do screws, wipe angle tapes, do 3 ways, wipe tapes on so on, then game on. A trowel would perform better than your one sided 12" knife, considering a trowel has 4 sides to work from, Two 12" sides and two 4.5" sides, sorta like a size of a four inch KNIFE eh':whistling2:
> 
> Yours is a blanket statement. I could say a saw is the most widely used tool on the job site, but what type of saw, a skill saw, hand saw, drywall saw, jig saw. If your going to compare trowel and knife, then lets keep it to what tasks a 12" trowel or 12" knife are going to do, things like, flats, butts, beads, skimming out walls.... unless you want to race coating bead against me, using a 4" knife. Lets stick to which proper tool to use with the task at hand.
> 
> And a few more points
> 
> A 14"x4.5"x4.5" mud pan will hold less mud than a 14"x14" hawk. I can get 4 heaping scoops of mud onto my hawk using a 6" knife. Lets see you stuff that much mud in your mud pan. best advantage of a mud pan over a hawk is when dealing with runny mud. I think that statement is self explanatory.
> 
> No P&K or H&T have made this trade evolve, it's the machines that did, a long with the material. First machine was the nail spotter, but if you look at the principals of the box (7,8,10,12etc) they follow that of the trowel. From the focal point to where the pressure is applied, the arched/curved blade, sounds like a tool that evolved form the trowel.
> 
> There's my 2 bucks worth:yes:


My arguement was that knives where designed more specifically for drywall finishing opposed to a trowel. I personally have never seen a person finishing a whole job with a hawk/trowel. Yes they may be able to run the flats,butts, and bead, but they cannot do the rest of the job with a trowel. As far as the the box evolving from a trowel, well I just say thats absurd. A box is a fixed tool and needs those settings to compensate when using it, just like if I were to put my mud on thicker on one side of the butt than the other. I understand that you like using a trowel and that you get good results, but knives are more useful especially when considering other parts of our trade such as repairs etc... Also, just for reference I can get 4 heaping scoops of mud in my 14" pan lol. Like I said my dad used a hawk because he is old school and even he will personally say that a pan will hold more mud effectively.


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> That was kind of my point, Even Hawk/trowel guys need knives to do parts of the job. *You simply cannot beat the knife.... you need them*. Finishers don't need a trowel, but they need knives. Nobody is going to run angles and nails with their trowel which is where the knife does a great job.


You're generalizing with your argument, though. Compare most good H&Ters with most good P&Kers, in things H&T is especially good for, which is especially the bigger areas, and more difficult areas, like undersides of beads. Which makes up a good part of a job. I think H&T will pretty much always come out on top, if not always.

Although I brought up the P&K crackhead from my past as being fast with a P&K, I don't know what he'd have been able to do with a H&T, once he got onto them. Maybe not much more, because of the way he might've been 'wired' skills wise, or maybe a lot more, because of or in spite of the way he was 'wired'.


----------



## saskataper

I'm a convert but still a rookie. I learned using P&K but the guy who taught me told me I wasn't cut out to be a taper after about 6 months so I went on my own, that was about a year and a half ago now. With him it was all P&K and flushers behind the zook. Shortly after going on my own I picked up a zook and boxes and taught myself how to use them (with a lot of help from you guys):thumbup:. Then last fall I started messing with H&T on smaller jobs and have never looked back. It was pretty messy at the start but now I think I got the hang of it.
With a trowel I can push much thicker mud, with the ultralight I don't add any water I just whip it up, if I tried that with a knife I would have to push so hard it would flex and not fill enough. Thicker mud I find fills the bead better, doesn't leave as many drag lines when coating butts, and lets me load twice as much mud on my trowel. I can do all my coats on the bead with a 12" cause I can use just 8" of the trowel if I want, pretty awkward with a 12" knife. With a trowel I find its much easier to control where I put pressure on the edge just by moving my fingers slightly. Also it just feels more natural to me.

Thats my 2 cents on the debate but keep in mind I'm still a rookie, I'm guessing a lot of your helpers have more experience than I do. I like to think I'm getting pretty good as everybody who had seen my work likes it, including Joe which was a pretty big ego boost for me.


----------



## JustMe

JustMe said:


> You're generalizing with your argument, though.


Should've maybe have said you Were seeming to generalize too much, with your initial argument. You're right in that there is a good place for knives, even with H&Ters. My 2 cents.


----------



## saskataper

thefinisher said:


> My arguement was that knives where designed more specifically for drywall finishing opposed to a trowel. I personally have never seen a person finishing a whole job with a hawk/trowel. Yes they may be able to run the flats,butts, and bead, but they cannot do the rest of the job with a trowel. As far as the the box evolving from a trowel, well I just say thats absurd. A box is a fixed tool and needs those settings to compensate when using it, just like if I were to put my mud on thicker on one side of the butt than the other. I understand that you like using a trowel and that you get good results, but knives are more useful especially when considering other parts of our trade such as repairs etc... Also, just for reference I can get 4 heaping scoops of mud in my 14" pan lol. Like I said my dad used a hawk because he is old school and even he will personally say that a pan will hold more mud effectively.


There's no doubt you can't do a whole job with H&T every taper has a 5 or 6 living in there back pocket and wiping tapes with anything but a P&K would be out of the question for me. In my bag I have 1.5,2,4,5,6, and 8" knives plus a half moon 6" for tricky areas and a couple 10" wipe down knives. It's all preference but for me I get better results with a H&T, plus it looks fancier.


----------



## JustMe

saskataper said:


> I'm a convert but still a rookie. I learned using P&K but the guy who taught me told me I wasn't cut out to be a taper after about 6 months so I went on my own, that was about a year and a half ago now. With him it was all P&K and flushers behind the zook. Shortly after going on my own I picked up a zook and boxes and taught myself how to use them (with a lot of help from you guys):thumbup:. Then last fall I started messing with H&T on smaller jobs and have never looked back. It was pretty messy at the start but now I think I got the hang of it.
> With a trowel I can push much thicker mud, with the ultralight I don't add any water I just whip it up, if I tried that with a knife I would have to push so hard it would flex and not fill enough. Thicker mud I find fills the bead better, doesn't leave as many drag lines when coating butts, and lets me load twice as much mud on my trowel. I can do all my coats on the bead with a 12" cause I can use just 8" of the trowel if I want, pretty awkward with a 12" knife. With a trowel I find its much easier to control where I put pressure on the edge just by moving my fingers slightly. Also it just feels more natural to me.
> 
> Thats my 2 cents on the debate but keep in mind I'm still a rookie, I'm guessing a lot of your helpers have more experience than I do. I like to think I'm getting pretty good as everybody who had seen my work likes it, including Joe which was a pretty big ego boost for me.


So what were you doing that he told you that - questioning his methods too much? 

2 years now. A fast study. :thumbsup:
Nothing like squeezing into a year what's normally 2-4 years learning for most people, when one can. 

Reads like I might have a couple things I do for coating flats and bead with P&K that you might not have been doing. But you're on to the H&T, which I think is a good thing, if you're staying with this for a time.

My take on all this, at this time: Don't fall in love and get defensive about any tool. Fall in love with whatever a tool can, or could, do for you to bring home the money.


----------



## JustMe

JustMe said:


> My take on all this, at this time: Don't fall in love and get defensive about any tool. Fall in love with whatever a tool can, or could, do for you to bring home the money.


Should maybe also add to that, those tools that can help keep you healthy as well, so you can keep bringing home the money, and enjoy it more.


----------



## saskataper

JustMe said:


> So what were you doing that he told you that - questioning his methods too much?
> 
> 2 years now. A fast study. :thumbsup:
> Nothing like squeezing into a year what's normally 2-4 years learning for most people, when one can.
> 
> Reads like I might have a couple things I do for coating flats and bead with P&K that you might not have been doing. But you're on to the H&T, which I think is a good thing, if you're staying with this for a time.
> 
> My take on all this, at this time: Don't fall in love and get defensive about any tool. Fall in love with whatever a tool can, or could, do for you to bring home the money.


I think there was more to it than he led on and I know better than to question a bosses methods. 
I lucked out early on and got a job taping 14' walls in a 4000' open warehouse space for a really good contractor which gave me the excuse to buy the zook and boxes and lots of wall to practice on. That job led to finishing over 40000' of board in the same warehouse over the past year as they cut up the space for tenants, all 14' finished to the ceiling and around all the I beams which are every 6'. I was just back there this week doing another 120' of wall, it's been gravy but there's only about 5000' left to lease.


----------



## JustMe

saskataper said:


> I lucked out early on and got a job taping 14' walls in a 4000' open warehouse space for a really good contractor which gave me the excuse to buy the zook and boxes and lots of wall to practice on. That job led to finishing over 40000' of board in the same warehouse over the past year as they cut up the space for tenants, all 14' finished to the ceiling and around all the I beams which are every 6'. I was just back there this week doing another 120' of wall, it's been gravy but there's only about 5000' left to lease.


I don't follow some things on here too closely, but weren't you posting pics a bit ago of some finishing of some retail space as well? Same warehouse?


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> Well a 5-6" knife is fine for the angles. BTW... zero ripples in my work :thumbsup:. I don't run the whole width of the 6 on the angles so it probably ends up being 5". The whole ripple thing is irrelevant as that has to do with how you angle your blade and how strong you are. The ripple comes from your body struggling to push alot/thicker mud. If you have the proper strength, then there will be no ripples.


 It has nothing to do strengh,,,It's the mix .
You run your angles like I do ...slowly...you use a 6'' I use the 5''..
It's all good man!:thumbsup:


----------



## moore

http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/Set-Specials/Drywall-Master-Box-Combo.html


Give em a try thefinisher..:yes:


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/Set-Specials/Drywall-Master-Box-Combo.html
> 
> 
> Give em a try thefinisher..:yes:


LOL I have a 10" and 12" Northstar boxes with a columbia pump. I break them out whenever I can :yes:. I won't run an angle box though.... seen them run and they don't have the quality of a hand finished angle IMO. One of our crews tried to use the angle boxes and we put a stop to that. When I am the one pointing up everthing with a halogen after prime and trim I want the best finish possible so I don't have to point up all day :thumbsup:


----------



## Square Foot

Use and learn everything that you can get your mitts on.

Closed mindedness of other methods leaves one stuck with wheels spinning.

I use Hawks, trowels, knives, pans and tools.... each has their place.


----------



## cazna

Square Foot said:


> Use and learn everything that you can get your mitts on.
> 
> Closed mindedness of other methods leaves one stuck with wheels spinning.
> 
> I use Hawks, trowels, knives, pans and tools.... each has their place.


 
Well put, Thats my way of thinking as well.

I use hawks, pans, knifes, trowels, banjos, auto tools, spray guns, wallpaper machines, sheep........opps, almost anything i can, It all makes me money.


----------



## gazman

Cmon finisher you posted a lot of coments but failed to mention the challenge of a vid. So time to man up, and put your vid where your mouth is.


----------



## saskataper

JustMe said:


> I don't follow some things on here too closely, but weren't you posting pics a bit ago of some finishing of some retail space as well? Same warehouse?


No that was a chiropractor clinic in a different building where I hung and finished 7000' pretty much by myself. It was my first and last big hanging job now I just sub it out.


----------



## thefinisher

gazman said:


> Cmon finisher you posted a lot of coments but failed to mention the challenge of a vid. So time to man up, and put your vid where your mouth is.


Well, we don't have anything currently coming up that I need to finish. Beauty of running a company is that I don't have to finish as much.


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> Well, we don't have anything currently coming up that I need to finish. Beauty of running a company is that I don't have to finish as much.


 :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


----------



## JustMe

gazman said:


> Cmon finisher you posted a lot of coments but failed to mention the challenge of a vid. So time to man up, and put your vid where your mouth is.


Finisher did seem to 'mellow' a Bit, with his comment to me of



thefinisher said:


> That was kind of my point, Even Hawk/trowel guys need knives to do parts of the job. You simply cannot beat the knife.... you need them. Finishers don't need a trowel, but they need knives. Nobody is going to run angles and nails with their trowel which is where the knife does a great job.


So maybe we could give him a Bit of a pass, this time(?) 

I don't know what 2buck is going to say (if anything) about Finisher's last post to him though, about comments like "I understand that you like using a trowel and that you get good results, but knives are more useful especially when considering other parts of our trade such as repairs etc". :whistling2: 



thefinisher said:


> Well, we don't have anything currently coming up that I need to finish. Beauty of running a company is that I don't have to finish as much.


So should we call you thequoter, or the......, instead of thefinisher?


----------



## 2buckcanuck

JustMe said:


> I don't know what 2buck is going to say (if anything) about Finisher's last post to him though, about comments like "I understand that you like using a trowel and that you get good results, but knives are more useful especially when considering other parts of our trade such as repairs etc". :whistling2:


He's just a young buck that's full of chit, I don't have time to draw pictures for him,,,,,,but......

Right from the get go, in post #20, he's stating H&T guys need to evolve to his way of doing things. That the trowel can't do the task a knife does, yet, I could tape out a house with a trowel, doing all aspects with it, but I won't, b/c I'm a professional, not a DIY .

Then he talks about how he has to go back and fix everything after they paint:blink:, stops a guy from using a angle box, owns some tools but only pulls them out sometimes, and best of all, too busy to make a video, b/c he's the boss......

After reading all this, I don't think I will pick on Moose boy for one month, it wouldn't be fair.....:blink:

So who knows some good sheep or hill billy jokes:thumbup:


----------



## moore

I don't understand why my sister is all pissed off about her 14 year old daughter drinking in front of her baby..

The damage is already done....Right!??


----------



## moore

What do you call a virgin in Kentucky?

A girl that can out run her brothers.:yes:


----------



## moore

Why do true ******** were button fly jeans?

cause sheep can hear zippers..


----------



## 2buckcanuck

:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


----------



## moore

Hear about the South Carolina State trooper pulling over a truck..
and asking the driver for his ID....Driver says ''bout what?''


----------



## moore

Hands down ! The best broad knife you will ever use!

And I have used them all...:yes:














mint craft


----------



## 2buckcanuck

moore said:


> Hands down ! The best broad knife you will ever use!
> 
> And I have used them all...


 I like the top knife:yes:, is that a 8" knife ?????, it sure looks pretty:yes:it would be nice to own a knife like that:yes:I really like it:yes:sure is a nice blue knife:whistling2:


----------



## DLSdrywall

Those are the knives i use but in SS, and they are the best and come pre-bent!!


----------



## moore

2buckcanuck said:


> i like the top knife:yes:, is that a 8" knife ?????, it sure looks pretty:yes:it would be nice to own a knife like that:yes:i really like it:yes:sure is a nice blue knife:whistling2:


asap


----------



## moore

DLSdrywall said:


> Those are the knives i use but in SS, and they are the best and come pre-bent!!


SS always seems to come pre bent:whistling2: 

I'm blue steel all the way bro:thumbup:


----------



## JustMe

moore said:


> Hands down ! The best broad knife you will ever use!
> 
> And I have used them all...:yes:
> 
> mint craft


Okay, you hillbilly D): 

I thought you were H&T. Or are you being facetious?


----------



## harvey randall

*h-t-----k-p*

after i got on to the automatics, 30 years ago. terry neilson told me on his job----i can run flats faster then you withat box. i said are you out side of your mind, neilson ? i cant run a touch up corner angle, with any thing but a knife. flat fill---i'll grab that 8 " box. roll, plow- 6 inch knife on those nasty recess. bring em home to flat. the key is the talent after years or understanding, a little FAT so they shrink down to a little flat.


----------



## gazman

thefinisher said:


> Well, we don't have anything currently coming up that I need to finish. Beauty of running a company is that I don't have to finish as much.













I smell chicken.:whistling2:


----------



## Kiwiman

Square Foot said:


> Use and learn everything that you can get your mitts on.
> 
> Closed mindedness of other methods leaves one stuck with wheels spinning.
> 
> I use Hawks, trowels, knives, pans and tools.... each has their place.


Exactly, 
I couldn't give a rats hairy left nut if one way is quicker or slower than the other, if something works for you but it doesn't work for me then I say good on you, I've got box's & trowels, angleheads and corner knife, bazooka & banjo etc etc, and I use what I feel like at the time and not what others expect me to use, I think thats called "peer pressure" :yes:


----------



## PrecisionTaping

Kiwiman said:


> Exactly,
> I couldn't give a rats hairy left nut if one way is quicker or slower than the other, if something works for you but it doesn't work for me then I say good on you, I've got box's & trowels, angleheads and corner knife, bazooka & banjo etc etc, and I use what I feel like at the time and not what others expect me to use, I think thats called "peer pressure" :yes:


Exactly.
I have 2 Bazooka's, 2 Mud Pumps, 2 Banjo's, A Super Taper, 3 Compound Tube's (with attachments), 2 10" Boxes, 2 12" Boxes.
I use whatever I feel like using that day.
Not what others want me to use.
The last 3 jobs I taped with the super taper and boy did that bring me back a few years. Felt like I was 16 again, slapping tapes on, keeping ahead of my boss. You can fly pretty good with that thing. It's a little messy, but you can cruise.


----------



## chris

I use knives, hawk and trowel was what I started out using but we wiped with pan and 8" and carried a 5 in pocket (hand taping days). Now when we arent using automatics we use pans and knives with a 6" in pocket. A pan will hold more mud and also will hold soupy mud. The mud I tex with would not even stay on a hawk. To me if a guy talks about swithing from knives to trowels then he more than likely is a hand taper old school type:yes.S. the more work you do with tools the better and your preference for knives will change (mine did) and pretty soon the hawk and trowel will be dust collectors:whistling2:


----------



## JustMe

Kiwiman said:


> Exactly,
> I couldn't give a rats hairy left nut if one way is quicker or slower than the other, *if something works for you* but it doesn't work for me then I say good on you, I've got box's & trowels, angleheads and corner knife, bazooka & banjo etc etc, and I use what I feel like at the time and not what others expect me to use, I think thats called "*peer* pressure" :yes:


Peer: _A person who is equal to another in abilities_

I've worked with guys who thought they were 'peer', and more than 'peer'. But they weren't. And they likely never will be, because they don't see what others try to keep pointing out to them. It's like they have blinders on.

Two more recent ones come to mind right now. Knifing speed demons, who thought their work was more than adequate, even when the problems were repeatedly pointed out.

So what they thought was working for them, really wasn't. They're gone now.


----------



## thefinisher

gazman said:


> I smell chicken.:whistling2:


LOL, I do wish we had something coming up for me. All we have are big houses on the schedule for the next couple weeks.


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> LOL, I do wish we had something coming up for me. All we have are big houses on the schedule for the next couple weeks.


 Well ...Jump in there and give those Mexicans a hand.:jester:

And make a vid of it.


----------



## JustMe

moore said:


> well ...jump in there and give those mexicans a hand.:jester:


roflol


----------



## moore

JustMe said:


> Okay, you hillbilly D):
> 
> I thought you were H&T. Or are you being facetious?


 I've always used floor scrapers..
I just recently started playing around with the trowel..Not an easy tool to git use to.

I use a 16'' trowel as a straight edge before skim.


----------



## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> He's just a young buck that's full of chit, I don't have time to draw pictures for him,,,,,,but......
> 
> Right from the get go, in post #20, he's stating H&T guys need to evolve to his way of doing things. That the trowel can't do the task a knife does, yet, I could tape out a house with a trowel, doing all aspects with it, but I won't, b/c I'm a professional, not a DIY .
> 
> Then he talks about how he has to go back and fix everything after they paint:blink:, stops a guy from using a angle box, owns some tools but only pulls them out sometimes, and best of all, too busy to make a video, b/c he's the boss......
> 
> After reading all this, I don't think I will pick on Moose boy for one month, it wouldn't be fair.....:blink:
> 
> So who knows some good sheep or hill billy jokes:thumbup:


I may be young but I aint no young buck that is for sure. Started finishing when I was 7 and any spare moment from then on I finished with my dad. I'm about to turn 23 and I am luck enough that our business got large enough where I don't have to finish 3-4 houses a week. I was also lucky enough to get an athletic scholarship to college and get my degree. I chose to stay with the business after college to help my dad as I am the only help he has. I put my time in as a finisher and now I get to bid projects, check on jobs, and acquire new builders. We bid every project to include all labor and materials so we are responsible for pointing/touching up after prime and trim. When you point up hundreds of houses with a 500 watt halogen for the pickiest people in the world then you really learn to appreciate good finishers and what it takes to achieve a quality finish. We did stop our finishers from running an angle box because after it was sanded and primed, the finish wasn't as good when we shine our light down the wall. I'm glad I'm too busy to make a video right now because that means we are making money. My dad probably would be like wtf are you doing with a camera on the jobsite anyway. I am 22 but I am an old school finisher. I grew up hand taping everything and I didn't even run a box until a few years ago. But I can hand finish like a MF'er. So before you think I'm a youngbuck that don't know chit, know that I have been hand finishing for almost 16 years and I am the lead person in control of a drywall business that takes on the entire job. I am the manager, the salesman, the quoter, the punch out guy, the secretary, and a dang good hand finisher. I am over the production of all of our multi-million dollar homes so I know what it takes to satisfy hundreds of very stringent customers. Also, I am a South Carolina lowcountry *******........ with a 4 year degree.


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> Well ...Jump in there and give those Mexicans a hand.:jester:
> 
> And make a vid of it.


 
LOL I do sometimes jump in with our Mexicans. You should have seen the looks on their faces when they saw me finishing . They were like " I deed not know ju cud fineesh like dat".

and yes we do use (legal) mexicans because they are the only ones around here that will work. And I must say that our lead finishing crew is very, very, very good. Very nice to point up after their work.


----------



## chris

thefinisher said:


> I may be young but I aint no young buck that is for sure. Started finishing when I was 7 and any spare moment from then on I finished with my dad. I'm about to turn 23 and I am luck enough that our business got large enough where I don't have to finish 3-4 houses a week. I was also lucky enough to get an athletic scholarship to college and get my degree. I chose to stay with the business after college to help my dad as I am the only help he has. I put my time in as a finisher and now I get to bid projects, check on jobs, and acquire new builders. We bid every project to include all labor and materials so we are responsible for pointing/touching up after prime and trim. When you point up hundreds of houses with a 500 watt halogen for the pickiest people in the world then you really learn to appreciate good finishers and what it takes to achieve a quality finish. We did stop our finishers from running an angle box because after it was sanded and primed, the finish wasn't as good when we shine our light down the wall. I'm glad I'm too busy to make a video right now because that means we are making money. My dad probably would be like wtf are you doing with a camera on the jobsite anyway. I am 22 but I am an old school finisher. I grew up hand taping everything and I didn't even run a box until a few years ago. But I can hand finish like a MF'er. So before you think I'm a youngbuck that don't know chit, know that I have been hand finishing for almost 16 years and I am the lead person in control of a drywall business that takes on the entire job. I am the manager, the salesman, the quoter, the punch out guy, the secretary, and a dang good hand finisher. I am over the production of all of our multi-million dollar homes so I know what it takes to satisfy hundreds of very stringent customers. Also, I am a South Carolina lowcountry *******........ with a 4 year degree.


 In Idaho we would say " Get the waders out":whistling2:. Not posting a vid is chickening out. While your out checking on those jobs tomorrow morning:whistling2: breakout your smartphone and have one of your guys show how fast he is with your method since you sound a bit camera shy


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> I may be young but I aint no young buck that is for sure. Started finishing when I was 7 and any spare moment from then on I finished with my dad. I'm about to turn 23 and I am luck enough that our business got large enough where I don't have to finish 3-4 houses a week. I was also lucky enough to get an athletic scholarship to college and get my degree.


In logic/'right reasoning', claiming to really know something because of amount of years in could be called a fallacious Appeal to Authority.

I have a friend who used to run a commercial drywall company. He said he had a lot of guys claiming 10-20 years experience. But he said what a lot of them really had was 1-2 years experience, that they applied over 10-20 years. 



thefinisher said:


> with a 4 year degree.


Again, a fallacious Appeal to Authority.

One of the best things I learned during my time at university is that it's not The Golden Arches - people don't necessarily come out the other end smart. Some even come out a little less intelligent than when they went in. (Eg.: Girl I know, to her grandpa, who happens to be an intelligent man: "But grandpa, I'm going to university, so I'm smarter than you." That was her after having one year in.)

Much of what's taught, in areas like business, can be 20 years behind. It has to prove itself well enough in the real world before it gets enough space given to it in the textbooks. By the time it does get in and becomes mainstream university taught 'brilliance', things can already have moved on.

Your thinking seems to have some catching up to do. Hope your 4 year degree doesn't get in the way of that too much.


----------



## thefinisher

chris said:


> In Idaho we would say " Get the waders out":whistling2:. Not posting a vid is chickening out. While your out checking on those jobs tomorrow morning:whistling2: breakout your smartphone and have one of your guys show how fast he is with your method since you sound a bit camera shy


I don't have a smart phone..... got one of those "indestructible" flip phones from verizon. BTW our finishers run banjos and flat boxes which wasn't what I was comparing.


----------



## SlimPickins

Boy, sure is a lot of d!ck-swingery going on in here.

Here's the problem...when you lay down something as "absolute truth" you're going to get called out as being full of sh!t by at least one person. Why? Because there's usually someone out there that can prove you wrong. We're not talking Physical laws here, we're talking drywall techniques.

It's not one vs. the other. Use what you need to to get it done the way it needs to be done.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> I may be young but I aint no young buck that is for sure. Started finishing when I was 7 and any spare moment from then on I finished with my dad. I'm about to turn 23 and I am luck enough that our business got large enough where I don't have to finish 3-4 houses a week. I was also lucky enough to get an athletic scholarship to college and get my degree. I chose to stay with the business after college to help my dad as I am the only help he has. I put my time in as a finisher and now I get to bid projects, check on jobs, and acquire new builders. We bid every project to include all labor and materials so we are responsible for pointing/touching up after prime and trim. When you point up hundreds of houses with a 500 watt halogen for the pickiest people in the world then you really learn to appreciate good finishers and what it takes to achieve a quality finish. We did stop our finishers from running an angle box because after it was sanded and primed, the finish wasn't as good when we shine our light down the wall. I'm glad I'm too busy to make a video right now because that means we are making money. My dad probably would be like wtf are you doing with a camera on the jobsite anyway. I am 22 but I am an old school finisher. I grew up hand taping everything and I didn't even run a box until a few years ago. But I can hand finish like a MF'er. So before you think I'm a youngbuck that don't know chit, know that I have been hand finishing for almost 16 years and I am the lead person in control of a drywall business that takes on the entire job. I am the manager, the salesman, the quoter, the punch out guy, the secretary, and a dang good hand finisher. I am over the production of all of our multi-million dollar homes so I know what it takes to satisfy hundreds of very stringent customers. Also, I am a South Carolina lowcountry *******........ with a 4 year degree.


I stopped reading your post after you said you were finishing at age 7, and that you were doing 3 to 4 houses a week.:yes:

I'm guessing you went on to say you keep 2 bazookas in your closet, b/c you prefer a homax banjo. You can 10" box out and hand chase a 13,000 sq ft house in a hour and a half. You don't rough sand, that your work is perfect, and that Drywall talk is a great dating service:whistling2:


----------



## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> In logic/'right reasoning', claiming to really know something because of amount of years in could be called a fallacious Appeal to Authority.
> 
> I have a friend who used to run a commercial drywall company. He said he had a lot of guys claiming 10-20 years experience. But he said what a lot of them really had was 1-2 years experience, that they applied over 10-20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, a fallacious Appeal to Authority.
> 
> One of the best things I learned during my time at university is that it's not The Golden Arches - people don't necessarily come out the other end smart. Some even come out a little less intelligent than when they went in. (Eg.: Girl I know, to her grandpa, who happens to be an intelligent man: "But grandpa, I'm going to university, so I'm smarter than you." That was her after having one year in.)
> 
> Much of what's taught, in areas like business, can be 20 years behind. It has to prove itself well enough in the real world before it gets enough space given to it in the textbooks. By the time it does get in and becomes mainstream university taught 'brilliance', things can already have moved on.
> 
> Your thinking seems to have some catching up to do. Hope your 4 year degree doesn't get in the way of that too much.


What part of the world do you live in where people come out stupider after earning a college degree? I worked my @$$ of for my degree and am definitely a more well rounded person. I played college baseball for a division 1 college, was a freshman all-american, 1st team all conference selection, national ping award recipient, and worked hard to graduate with a 3.54 GPA over 4 years. Your basically stating that everyone on here who claims thier years of experience are making fallacious comments? And when I wasn't studying or playing ball, I was helping our company. Do you run a drywall company or are you just a finisher. Because if you just finish then you have no idea what it takes to run a successful drywall company from start to finish. My degree has helped me tremendously within our business. I have had offers to make a lot more money than I do now, but I chose to stay with our family business because I have learned to love this trade and I am truly the only other person running the company besides my dad. How can you seriously hate on me having a degree? I didn't try and degrade anybody on here for not having one. I have the utmost respect for people who have been doing drywall all thier lives. My dad is one of them.... He started finishing when he was 13 and now he is about to turn 57...... and he taught me every single thing that he knows about the trade.


----------



## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> I stopped reading your post after you said you were finishing at age 7, and that you were doing 3 to 4 houses a week.:yes:
> 
> I'm guessing you went on to say you keep 2 bazookas in your closet, b/c you prefer a homax banjo. You can 10" box out and hand chase a 13,000 sq ft house in a hour and a half. You don't rough sand, that your work is perfect, and that Drywall talk is a great dating service:whistling2:


I did start finishing when I was 7. I would run all the nails on the walls that I could reach off of a bucket in the entire house. And when my dad AND mom were finishing we were doing 3-4 houses a week for a very large residential drywall company locally. Granted we did have 2 other helpers and my brother to help as well. Honestly I have no clue how to run a bazooka and I don't own a homax. Actually, I don't rough sand my work. When I'm done with my bed coat I will cross off any lap marks. I don't find it necessary when I know how to properly operate a Porter Cable :yes: I can give you more personal info if you need it lol.


----------



## chris

thefinisher said:


> I don't have a smart phone..... got one of those "indestructible" flip phones from verizon. BTW our finishers run banjos and flat boxes which wasn't what I was comparing.


 I just barely got a smartphone so dont feel bad. Its not that I dont agree with you its that I like to see it backed up with a vid of some sort. P&K is the more efficient to me beings boxes do most the work. I like to hear you run banjos too:thumbsup: ... Work on that vid


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> What part of the world do you live in where people come out stupider after earning a college degree? I worked my @$$ of for my degree and am definitely a more well rounded person. I played college baseball for a division 1 college, was a freshman all-american, 1st team all conference selection, national ping award recipient, and worked hard to graduate with a 3.54 GPA over 4 years. Your basically stating that everyone on here who claims thier years of experience are making fallacious comments? And when I wasn't studying or playing ball, I was helping our company. Do you run a drywall company or are you just a finisher. Because if you just finish then you have no idea what it takes to run a successful drywall company from start to finish. My degree has helped me tremendously within our business. I have had offers to make a lot more money than I do now, but I chose to stay with our family business because I have learned to love this trade and I am truly the only other person running the company besides my dad. How can you seriously hate on me having a degree? I didn't try and degrade anybody on here for not having one. I have the utmost respect for people who have been doing drywall all thier lives. My dad is one of them.... He started finishing when he was 13 and now he is about to turn 57...... and he taught me every single thing that he knows about the trade.


Good grief. You did come out the other end stupid.


----------



## thefinisher

chris said:


> I just barely got a smartphone so dont feel bad. Its not that I dont agree with you its that I like to see it backed up with a vid of some sort. P&K is the more efficient to me beings boxes do most the work. I like to hear you run banjos too:thumbsup: ... Work on that vid


I could probably take crappy cell vid of our guys running their banjos... they move pretty quickly . I wouldn't mind making a vid of me hand finishing but I don't have the means to do it yet. I would have to borrow my girlfriends camera that does video as well as we only have an oldschool camcorder at the house. HMMM.... the only thing we will be finishing ourselves is 5 boards next week on a popcorn ceiling overlay..... Maybe I could take some pictures though...


----------



## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> Good grief. You did come out the other end stupid.


 
:whistling2:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> I can give you more personal info if you need it lol.


Expect Moose boy to be Private Messaging you for your private information:whistling2::whistling2::thumbup:

are you willing to relocate:whistling2:


----------



## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> Expect Moose boy to be Private Messaging you for your private information:whistling2::whistling2::thumbup:
> 
> are you willing to relocate:whistling2:


Too cold up there for me lol


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> :whistling2:


lol.

Well, at least you are good for a laugh. :thumbsup:


----------



## BPTaper

Ive been finishing since I was 3.I started out running butts with my banky and bahbah.Now Im a k&p taper.I have one arm and only 3 fingers on my other hand,which is attached to a 2 ft arm BTW.Im color blind so green,black,red,its all the same.I also have downs syndrome which makes it much more easier to tolerate this thread.


----------



## moore

''I am 22 but I am an old school finisher. I grew up hand taping everything and I didn't even run a box until a few years ago. But I can hand finish like a MF'er. So before you think I'm a youngbuck that don't know chit, know that I have been hand finishing for almost 16 years ''


Take away your years in school/college ..That would make 2 years full-time/ on-site experience. no? :jester:


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> ''I am 22 but I am an old school finisher. I grew up hand taping everything and I didn't even run a box until a few years ago. But I can hand finish like a MF'er. So before you think I'm a youngbuck that don't know chit, know that I have been hand finishing for almost 16 years ''
> 
> 
> Take away your years in school/college ..That would make 2 years full-time/ on-site experience. no? :jester:


Moore you hatin' now too? Damn, I guess all I can do is check on jobs and whip our mexican workers:boxing:


----------



## JustMe

moore said:


> ''I am 22 but I am an old school finisher. I grew up hand taping everything and I didn't even run a box until a few years ago. But I can hand finish like a MF'er. So before you think I'm a youngbuck that don't know chit, know that I have been hand finishing for almost 16 years ''
> 
> 
> Take away your years in school/college ..That would make 2 years full-time/ on-site experience. no? :jester:


Careful, moore. You're starting to drift into the realm of Appeal to Authority. :laughing:


----------



## moore

JustMe said:


> Careful, moore. You're starting to drift into the realm of Appeal to Authority. :laughing:


 I dropped out of school..so i'm not sure what that means


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> I dropped out of school..so i'm not sure what that means


No worries my dad did too. How old are you Moore?


----------



## thefinisher

Hey can anybody post up a video of some really good hawk/trowel work up? I looked on youtube but it all seemed to be more related to teaching the h/t.


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> No worries my dad did too. How old are you Moore?


 I'm 44..I started off like you finisher...walking stilts at 8/10 something like that...Then dropped out of school at 15. It's been drywall everyday all day ever since.. 
I have never been truely happy or satisfied with any job I've walked out of. If given more time I could of done better...But then If given more time I could have made it worse!!!:lol::thumbsup:


----------



## PrecisionTaping

thefinisher said:


> Hey can anybody post up a video of some really good hawk/trowel work up? I looked on youtube but it all seemed to be more related to teaching the h/t.


what do you mean work up? What do you want to know?


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> I'm 44..I started off like you finisher...walking stilts at 8/10 something like that...Then dropped out of school at 15. It's been drywall everyday all day ever since..
> I have never been truely happy or satisfied with any job I've walked out of. If given more time I could of done better...But then If given more time I could have made it worse!!!:lol::thumbsup:


Thats about the time my dad started up our business... You kind of remind me of him the way you do your work.


----------



## thefinisher

PrecisionTaping said:


> what do you mean work up? What do you want to know?


Just wanted to see some h/t in some real world action I guess.


----------



## moore




----------



## thefinisher

^^^ yeah I watched that but it is just a tutorial, doesn't show me much in the means of everyday production or effectiveness. I can't find any real good videos....


----------



## moore

Heres one of justme in his younger days:whistling2:


----------



## thefinisher

^^^ watched that too. Not a fan of the way he runs those joints. Needs to wipe at least one more time down the center after he feathers the edges. I guess I can't really find any good youtube vids of anybody with a h/t or knife doing some production work.


----------



## mudslingr

Arey85 said:


> KNIFE & TROWEL!!! WoooHooo I'm all alone :-(


I'm sure your mother thinks you're "unique" ! 

I get a kick out of how you slap those around and sh1t is flying and sticking all around. Quite entertaining. If it works for you keep it up !:thumbsup:


----------



## JustMe

moore said:


> I dropped out of school..so i'm not sure what that means


I was counting on it....so I wouldn't be called on it.


----------



## Kiwiman

moore said:


> I dropped out of school..so i'm not sure what that means


I left school when I was 15 too, I didn't bother going to university after that because the teachers told my mother they couldn't do any more for me.....so I presume that meant I already know everything and can't learn any more :whistling2:


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> ^^^ watched that too. Not a fan of the way he runs those joints. Needs to wipe at least one more time down the center after he feathers the edges.


So if he did wipe down the middle, what would you think then?



thefinisher said:


> I guess I can't really find any good youtube vids of anybody with a h/t or knife doing some production work.


Since I'm in rehab for a shot shoulder, guess that lets me off the hook. :sweatdrop:

Not that I'm a speed demon coater anyway, with P&K.


----------



## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> So if he did wipe down the middle, what would you think then?
> 
> 
> 
> Since I'm in rehab for a shot shoulder, guess that lets me off the hook. :sweatdrop:
> 
> Not that I'm a speed demon coater anyway, with P&K.


Well it would be a little better....... I got a bad shoulder too, had shoulder surger after first year in college..


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> Well it would be a little better....... I got a bad shoulder too, had shoulder surger after first year in college..


 jock!


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> jock!


lol not no more. I had my time, now I just play mens league baseball. Too bad my shoulder was bad, might have had a better chance at getting drafted.


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> Well it would be a little better.......


That establishes some kind of baseline, then. So your quality and speed would exceed that?



thefinisher said:


> I got a bad shoulder too, had shoulder surger after first year in college..


That's what the ortho surgeon said to me, when I told him my concern was that the work might take things apart further. "Not to worry", he said. "We'll just do surgery". I was thinking :hang: you, you knife happy piece of :furious:


----------



## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> That establishes some kind of baseline, then. So your quality and speed would exceed that?
> 
> 
> 
> That's what the ortho surgeon said to me, when I told him my concern was that the work might take things apart further. "Not to worry", he said. "We'll just do surgery". I was thinking :hang: you, you knife happy piece of :furious:


So was that really you finishing? I'm not sure who it was but it looked like they were trying to just go fast for the sake of trying to be fast.


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> So was that really you finishing? I'm not sure who it was but it looked like they were trying to just go fast for the sake of trying to be fast.


 Naw man..That wasn't justme in the vid....justme poking fun at justme..:thumbup:


----------



## JustMe

Yeah, it's just moore having fun, at my expense. :thumbsup:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

well,,,, looks like none of us were right, looks like a mud pan and hawk hold the same amount of mud.

using a 14" mud pan, and a 14" hawk, I filled the mud pan 1st, using a advanced 6" knife. I was going by, what a NORMAL !!!!!!! amount of mud would be comfortable to work with. 3 scoops filled the mud pan to normal level, 4 scoops filled it completely, level to the top. Which I then dumped out onto a hawk, and it fit.

I don't think we all fill our pans and hawks to a maximum all the time. I knew without checking for the hawk, I put 3 scoops on when loading bead .Once I began to load the mud pan, it became obvious what it would hold,,,,,,, left,,middle,,right ,,full

Sure you can pile more on top of BOTH of them, aim for the ridiculous, but I'm talking normal here, so their both the same:yes:


----------



## JustMe

Getting back to this:



thefinisher said:


> I'm not sure who it was but it looked like they were trying to just go fast for the sake of trying to be fast.


Based on the video's title - Finish drywall, FAST!!! - that seemed the focus. Get it done fast.

So other than the swipe down the middle that you'd like to see, what else do you think about it. Good? Okay? The speed isn't justifying the quality?

Something that moore left out is that if you check the video on Youtube, it says in part of its description: _This is not paint ready but after this it is covered with wallpaper_.

The one in the video also stated: _I am the plasterer in this video and of course i tried a little harder then i do the other 8 hours a day.

_What do any of the rest of you think, with regards to his knifing and what he seems to be trying to accomplish?
Just trying to get a bit better baseline regarding how those on here view such things. Where people are at.


----------



## moore

JustMe said:


> Getting back to this:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the video's title - Finish drywall, FAST!!! - that seemed the focus. Get it done fast.
> 
> So other than the swipe down the middle that you'd like to see, what else do you think about it. Good? Okay? The speed isn't justifying the quality?
> 
> Something that moore left out is that if you check the video on Youtube, it says in part of its description: _This is not paint ready but after this it is covered with wallpaper_.
> 
> The one in the video also stated: _I am the plasterer in this video and of course i tried a little harder then i do the other 8 hours a day._
> 
> What do any of the rest of you think, with regards to his knifing and what he seems to be trying to accomplish?
> Just trying to get a bit better baseline regarding how those on here view such things. Where people are at.


 Am I a part of ''the rest of you''?

If so...Those are stand-ups on a wood frame[best I can tell] That means the seams were humped before the tape was applied.

wallpaper/paint...Those humped seams will still show ...With wallpaper the best we can get away with is no sanding ..The finish still needs to be fairly level. 

The hot mud on the corner bead was still wet when he ''yahoo'' threw his 2nd coat on. 

No knife checking:blink:

Railroading @ stand-ups create a poor finish ..IMO!

Fast is Fast...but call-backs ........spread the drop cloths @ do It all over again ....That's slow work. [?]


----------



## bmitch

JustMe said:


> Getting back to this:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the video's title - Finish drywall, FAST!!! - that seemed the focus. Get it done fast.
> 
> So other than the swipe down the middle that you'd like to see, what else do you think about it. Good? Okay? The speed isn't justifying the quality?
> 
> Something that moore left out is that if you check the video on Youtube, it says in part of its description: _This is not paint ready but after this it is covered with wallpaper_.
> 
> The one in the video also stated: _I am the plasterer in this video and of course i tried a little harder then i do the other 8 hours a day._
> 
> What do any of the rest of you think, with regards to his knifing and what he seems to be trying to accomplish?
> Just trying to get a bit better baseline regarding how those on here view such things. Where people are at.


 why bother to critique work like that.


----------



## JustMe

moore said:


> Am I a part of ''the rest of you''?
> 
> If so...Those are stand-ups on a wood frame[best I can tell] That means the seams were humped before the tape was applied.
> 
> wallpaper/paint...Those humped seams will still show ...With wallpaper the best we can get away with is no sanding ..The finish still needs to be fairly level.
> 
> The hot mud on the corner bead was still wet when he ''yahoo'' threw his 2nd coat on.
> 
> No knife checking:blink:
> 
> Railroading @ stand-ups create a poor finish ..IMO!
> 
> Fast is Fast...but call-backs ........spread the drop cloths @ do It all over again ....That's slow work. [?]


Sure, you can be one of 'them', moore. 

Thanks for the input.



b said:


> why bother to critique work like that.


To get a sense of what different guys from different areas think about it, when compared to what they've experienced.

What I was hoping to especially see is what guys thought of the knifing skills. From their past experience, and from where things are at in their areas when it comes to such skills, is it slow but adequate - to them. Is it fast but not adequate - to them. Is it, as 2buck puts it, 'holy chit' - to them. Is it ....... - to them.

How does it compare to the existing knifing and troweling speed and skills in one's area, and from one's past experiences.

Unless someone can find a better video to do that with.


----------



## bmitch

the truth is i'd rather watch someone with alittle knife exsperiance trying to do it properly,slowly if nessesary instead of someone with alot of exsperiance doing it poorly at a speed that he,s unable to deliver a proper job.


----------



## SlimPickins

b said:


> the truth is i'd rather watch someone with alittle knife exsperiance trying to do it properly,slowly if nessesary instead of someone with alot of exsperiance doing it poorly at a speed that he,s unable to deliver a proper job.


Yeah, he should put some birds on there  


(not being rude, just silly)


----------



## chris

I only move that fast if Im running late for a tee time. Break out the power sander:whistling2:


----------



## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> well,,,, looks like none of us were right, looks like a mud pan and hawk hold the same amount of mud.
> 
> using a 14" mud pan, and a 14" hawk, I filled the mud pan 1st, using a advanced 6" knife. I was going by, what a NORMAL !!!!!!! amount of mud would be comfortable to work with. 3 scoops filled the mud pan to normal level, 4 scoops filled it completely, level to the top. Which I then dumped out onto a hawk, and it fit.
> 
> I don't think we all fill our pans and hawks to a maximum all the time. I knew without checking for the hawk, I put 3 scoops on when loading bead .Once I began to load the mud pan, it became obvious what it would hold,,,,,,, left,,middle,,right ,,full
> 
> Sure you can pile more on top of BOTH of them, aim for the ridiculous, but I'm talking normal here, so their both the same:yes:


 
Just to mess with you 2buck I put 4 big scoops using my 6" knife into my 14" pan and this is what it looks like... It actually took 6 big scoops to fill and 5 scoops is what I would comfortably work with. I know I got a 14" hawk laying around to dump some mud on....


----------



## thefinisher

4 actually smaller scoops onto my 14" hawk..... 5 scoops onto the hawk was way too much and 6.... well I reckon you can guess the outcome. I would say you could only effectively work with 3.5" scoops onto a hawk where as my 14" pan can hold 5 scoops and I can still work effectively. Guess I was right


----------



## thefinisher

BTW, this was done using mud from the same bucket so the consitency was exactly the same. this mud was only mixed with no water added. My dad was laughing at me during this as he knew the outcome :yes: I guess what people failed to realize is that a 14" pan is bigger than 14" because you have to be able to use a 14" knife. Might want to measure that 14" pan again 2buck.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> Just to mess with you 2buck I put 4 big scoops using my 6" knife into my 14" pan and this is what it looks like... It actually took 6 big scoops to fill and 5 scoops is what I would comfortably work with. I know I got a 14" hawk laying around to dump some mud on....


Depends on what you want to call a big scoop. I'm sure you have said the word "big" to certain lady friends, and they were highly disappointed :thumbup::jester:

just fill your pan level, then place it on the hawk, it will take the load. Filling the mud pan above level, would be impracticable to use, there is a point to keeping too much mud on either the mud pan or hawk, makes the tool more difficult to use. Or lead to RSI injury down the road (repetitive strain Injury). Hear that young bucks, ask Moore what RSI are like to work with. A little bit of wisdom from us old bucks, keep lighter loads on those mud pans and hawks:yes:

A smart taper, will keep his mud BUCKET near by,that's half the secret. Not 2 flights of stairs away, down the hall one hundred feet away, 3rd room on the left. Weather running the boxes, zook, angles, or doing hand work, keep your majour mud supply close at hand. I have honestly worked with guys who are too lazy to lift up their bucket and carry it. They would walk up and down a flight of stairs, or climb up and down a scaffold to refill what ever tool they were using. keep your mud supply at hand, that's more than half the battle.

Now this thread will become about the size of buckets we use:whistling2:


----------



## thefinisher

Put my comfortable 5 scoops into my 14" pan and dumped it onto the hawk.... this is the result:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> 4 actually smaller scoops onto my 14" hawk..... 5 scoops onto the hawk was way too much and 6.... well I reckon you can guess the outcome. I would say you could only effectively work with 3.5" scoops onto a hawk where as my 14" pan can hold 5 scoops and I can still work effectively. Guess I was right


Your wrong when you don't know how to run a hawk or trowel. What you have on your hawk is nothing. looks like 2 scoops to me:yes:


----------



## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> Depends on what you want to call a big scoop. I'm sure you have said the word "big" to certain lady friends, and they were highly disappointed :thumbup::jester:
> 
> just fill your pan level, then place it on the hawk, it will take the load. Filling the mud pan above level, would be impracticable to use, there is a point to keeping too much mud on either the mud pan or hawk, makes the tool more difficult to use. Or lead to RSI injury down the road (repetitive strain Injury). Hear that young bucks, ask Moore what RSI are like to work with. A little bit of wisdom from us old bucks, keep lighter loads on those mud pans and hawks:yes:
> 
> A smart taper, will keep his mud BUCKET near by,that's half the secret. Not 2 flights of stairs away, down the hall one hundred feet away, 3rd room on the left. Weather running the boxes, zook, angles, or doing hand work, keep your majour mud supply close at hand. I have honestly worked with guys who are too lazy to lift up their bucket and carry it. They would walk up and down a flight of stairs, or climb up and down a scaffold to refill what ever tool they were using. keep your mud supply at hand, that's more than half the battle.
> 
> Now this thread will become about the size of buckets we use:whistling2:


I'm sorry but I had to take pictures to actually prove my point. The pan is better suited to handling mud than a hawk. My dad said when he was finishing everyday that about 3.5 scoops would be the absolute maximum that he could effectively control while working. He said that the only reason he used a hawk is because he switched from finishing with a trowel and was just used to a hawk more than a pan. I can hold 5 scoops in my pan and be able to work just as quickly and effectively as I can with 1 scoop. RSI? c'mon that is part of work... my mom finished for over 20 years and she would fill her 14" pan up all the way and she had 8 pins and 2 plates in her left forearm (finished right handed). She worked 8+ hours a day and I have personally witnessed her put on 12 buckets of mud while bedding a house in a day. And I agree, a smart taper will keep his bucket close by because if he don't he is plain retarded and will probably be getting fired. That isn't a secret either, just common sense.


----------



## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> Your wrong when you don't know how to run a hawk or trowel. What you have on your hawk is nothing. looks like 2 scoops to me:yes:


I'm only pointing out directly the effectiveness of a hawk vs. pan at the moment and I do know how to use a hawk..... I just use a knife with it. So because I don't use a trowel means that I can't effectively judge the difference in volume? Like I said my dad has finished for 40+ years and he knows you can't hold as much mud with a hawk than a pan. I'm just posting facts. I could care less if you use a hawk or a pan, I'm just saying that a pan carries more mud effectively. Imagine the mess if I would have added some water to that mud.....:whistling2:


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> 4 actually smaller scoops onto my 14" hawk..... 5 scoops onto the hawk was way too much and 6.... well I reckon you can guess the outcome. I would say you could only effectively work with 3.5" scoops onto a hawk where as my 14" pan can hold 5 scoops and I can still work effectively. Guess I was right


 CLEAN YOUR HAWK MAN!!!


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> I'm only pointing out directly the effectiveness of a hawk vs. pan at the moment and I do know how to use a hawk..... I just use a knife with it. So because I don't use a trowel means that I can't effectively judge the difference in volume? Like I said my dad has finished for 40+ years and he knows you can't hold as much mud with a hawk than a pan. I'm just posting facts. I could care less if you use a hawk or a pan, I'm just saying that a pan carries more mud effectively. Imagine the mess if I would have added some water to that mud.....:whistling2:


 BUT!.......

Can you get the mud out of your pan ,,and on the wall faster than I can get my mud off my hawk ,,and on the wall???:no:

It's not about speed ..But.... If you had a 3 gallon bread pan ..
I could still stay ahead of you with my 13'' hawk.. Mini scaffold at my side with 3 buckets mixed ...Pushin mud like a mofo!!! LOL!!!!!


----------



## DLSdrywall

Pans are for women, and guys with limp wrists, every guy i talk to that use pans.. use to be hawk guys but they have tennis elbow or sore wrists. Pans hold more yes, but your always diggin for mud when a hawk it's all there in front of you just slap and go.:thumbsup: no offense to the pansy tapers out there hahaha


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> CLEAN YOUR HAWK MAN!!!


Lol it is my dad's and he hasn't used it for a while. It scraped it off before putting my mud on there as I have to use that mud tomorrow :thumbsup:


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> BUT!.......
> 
> Can you get the mud out of your pan ,,and on the wall faster than I can get my mud off my hawk ,,and on the wall???:no:
> 
> It's not about speed ..But.... If you had a 3 gallon bread pan ..
> I could still stay ahead of you with my 13'' hawk.. Mini scaffold at my side with 3 buckets mixed ...Pushin mud like a mofo!!! LOL!!!!!


I can get my mud equally as fast :yes:. hey I have a mini scaffold too, comes in handy! I loved having all the extra mixed up mud with me so I don't have to keep mixing up.


----------



## thefinisher

DLSdrywall said:


> Pans are for women, and guys with limp wrists, every guy i talk to that use pans.. use to be hawk guys but they have tennis elbow or sore wrists. Pans hold more yes, but your always diggin for mud when a hawk it's all there in front of you just slap and go.:thumbsup: no offense to the pansy tapers out there hahaha


Lol like I said I don't care what you use if it works. I just had to prove my point that a pan does indeed hold more mud. My other point to mr. 2buck is that drywall knives are better suited to finishing than a trowel. I have already proved one point......:whistling2:


----------



## JustMe

b said:


> the truth is i'd rather watch someone with alittle knife exsperiance trying to do it properly,slowly if nessesary instead of someone with alot of exsperiance doing it poorly at a speed that he,s unable to deliver a proper job.


Thanks for that.

So what we're back to then is who has a video that they think shows productivity, that's acceptable. Either with H&T, or P&K, or both.


How about you, DLS?: 



DLSdrywall said:


> Pans are for women, and guys with limp wrists, every guy i talk to that use pans.. use to be hawk guys but they have tennis elbow or sore wrists. Pans hold more yes, but your always diggin for mud when a hawk it's all there in front of you just slap and go.:thumbsup: no offense to the pansy tapers out there hahaha


----------



## JustMe

moore said:


> BUT!.......
> 
> Can you get the mud out of your pan ,,and on the wall faster than I can get my mud off my hawk ,,and on the wall???:no:
> 
> It's not about speed ..But.... If you had a 3 gallon bread pan ..
> I could still stay ahead of you with my 13'' hawk.. Mini scaffold at my side with 3 buckets mixed ...Pushin mud like a mofo!!! LOL!!!!!


Another one offering? :whistling2:


----------



## moore

JustMe said:


> Another one offering? :whistling2:


 You spent an hour on those two replys ...What did you really want to say? 

I Aint sceard!! We'll have a cracker box hung out by Friday 5760' 
[speck] 160' of bead [paper face] I will make a vid of me coating the bead 1st coat with h/k ...I'll run the bead Mudslingr said he would like to see a vid of. 

Hell!! I may even throw in a bastard butt....


----------



## sdrdrywall

No hawk no pan just 8" box :whistling2:


----------



## thefinisher

sdrdrywall said:


> No hawk no pan just 8" box :whistling2:


can't argue with that one lol. A box is faster fo sho


----------



## JustMe

moore said:


> You spent an hour on those two replys ...What did you really want to say?


Something that wouldn't get my butt in a sling? :yes:



moore said:


> I Aint sceard!! We'll have a cracker box hung out by Friday 5760'
> [speck] 160' of bead [paper face] I will make a vid of me coating the bead 1st coat with h/k ...I'll run the bead Mudslingr said he would like to see a vid of.
> 
> Hell!! I may even throw in a bastard butt....


:thumbsup:


----------



## DLSdrywall

I'll do a video maybe you can come hold a camera for me while i work lol. I use my blackberry so it's positioning it on mud boxes. I use hawk and knife for beads, so we loading beads or hand work a whole room i start a house tomorrow i'll try and film something.


----------



## thefinisher

I wonder if 2buck could post up a video of some working speed h/t use. He seems to make a decent video


----------



## JustMe

DLSdrywall said:


> I'll do a video maybe you can come hold a camera for me while i work lol. I use my blackberry so it's positioning it on mud boxes. I use hawk and knife for beads, so we loading beads or hand work a whole room i start a house tomorrow i'll try and film something.


Good for you as well. Looking forward to whatever you and moore can do, show us.

And for any who want to get critical, videos to back it up. :jester:

Btw, I'm a bit of a tech idiot when it comes to things I don't have a real need to know. You'd have to show me how the camera worked.


----------



## moore

JustMe said:


> Something that wouldn't get my butt in a sling? :yes:
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbsup:


better your butt than your shoulder!


----------



## SlimPickins

May I oh-so-politely ask why guys are using a hawk and a knife combination? It seems like a knife and a pan go together, and a hawk and trowel go together. On occasion, I've used my trowel with a pan because I was working a task with a pan and found something that needed some "love" and wanted to hit it with the trowel. The same with using h&t and needed a knife to hit something.....but for larger scale production it seems one combo or the other would be more appropriate. Not being critical, sincerely curious.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> I wonder if 2buck could post up a video of some working speed h/t use. He seems to make a decent video


Sure thing FT, just as soon as you put one up, don't forget to over fill your mud pan, so we can see how speedy you are:whistling2:

Here's a video of a guy doing plaster, and right away you will say that's not taping

I had to do what this guy does in his video, with my one old partner, who recently passed..... veneer plaster.

When you learn to do this system, and when you go back to the taping/mud method, to suddenly coat out a corner bead, or coat out a flat or butt(if no boxes) is nothing.

Plaster and taping are two different systems, but if you have done plaster, it will make you a faster taper. The materials !!!!! are different, but one of the selling points of taping over plaster was, the plaster masters did not half to trade in their trowels for over sizes knives. They could go back and forth between the two trades, using their already purchased tools:yes:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> May I oh-so-politely ask why guys are using a hawk and a knife combination? It seems like a knife and a pan go together, and a hawk and trowel go together. On occasion, I've used my trowel with a pan because I was working a task with a pan and found something that needed some "love" and wanted to hit it with the trowel. The same with using h&t and needed a knife to hit something.....but for larger scale production it seems one combo or the other would be more appropriate. Not being critical, sincerely curious.


Sometimes I use knife and hawk to do screws, with a baby hawk. But one thing I will use the combination for specifically is coating out the no-coat, you can go at a much more velocious pace.

There, I used a word you might half to google slim:whistling2:


----------



## moore

SlimPickins said:


> May I oh-so-politely ask why guys are using a hawk and a knife combination? It seems like a knife and a pan go together, and a hawk and trowel go together. On occasion, I've used my trowel with a pan because I was working a task with a pan and found something that needed some "love" and wanted to hit it with the trowel. The same with using h&t and needed a knife to hit something.....but for larger scale production it seems one combo or the other would be more appropriate. Not being critical, sincerely curious.


How I was taught ...Know nothing else..Tried the bread pan a few times ,,but couldn't get the mud out the damn thing!! 

Seams I can see ,,but running beads @ butts from a bread pan just took forever..

I am so making a vid for you Slim...


----------



## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> Sure thing FT, just as soon as you put one up, don't forget to over fill your mud pan, so we can see how speedy you are:whistling2:
> 
> Here's a video of a guy doing plaster, and right away you will say that's not taping
> 
> I had to do what this guy does in his video, with my one old partner, who recently passed..... veneer plaster.
> 
> When you learn to do this system, and when you go back to the taping/mud method, to suddenly coat out a corner bead, or coat out a flat or butt(if no boxes) is nothing.
> 
> Plaster and taping are two different systems, but if you have done plaster, it will make you a faster taper. The materials !!!!! are different, but one of the selling points of taping over plaster was, the plaster masters did not half to trade in their trowels for over sizes knives. They could go back and forth between the two trades, using their already purchased tools:yes:
> 
> the expert plastering guide for skimming.5min skim part 2.jonah - YouTube


Damn. He's WAY faster than I am. 



2buckcanuck said:


> Sometimes I use knife and hawk to do screws, with a baby hawk. But one thing I will use the combination for specifically is coating out the no-coat, you can go at a much more velocious pace.
> 
> There, I used a word you might half to google slim:whistling2:


Ha! I DID have to google it, but I was on the right track thinking it had to do with velocity.

I coat No-coat and Zip-strip with a knife as well, but I usually switch to a pan because there are lots of things I use a pan for. I use the h&t for all my flat work and beads, but usually a pan for screws, angles, etc so I can add water as needed when the mud gets gummy. I use both so much that they're just an extension and they both have their place in my "system" if you could call it that.

I'm still a firm believer that my jobs are more of an improvisational dance depending on size and complexity. What to do first? Glass, Fuse, or paper? Set muds or not? What speed? How long can I be here? What's the substrate? I wish I could just walk in and have a set system, but I guess that's what keeps it "interesting".


----------



## moore

A set system I understand..


----------



## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> Sure thing FT, just as soon as you put one up, don't forget to over fill your mud pan, so we can see how speedy you are:whistling2:
> 
> Here's a video of a guy doing plaster, and right away you will say that's not taping
> 
> I had to do what this guy does in his video, with my one old partner, who recently passed..... veneer plaster.
> 
> When you learn to do this system, and when you go back to the taping/mud method, to suddenly coat out a corner bead, or coat out a flat or butt(if no boxes) is nothing.
> 
> Plaster and taping are two different systems, but if you have done plaster, it will make you a faster taper. The materials !!!!! are different, but one of the selling points of taping over plaster was, the plaster masters did not half to trade in their trowels for over sizes knives. They could go back and forth between the two trades, using their already purchased tools:yes:
> 
> the expert plastering guide for skimming.5min skim part 2.jonah - YouTube


Well judging by that vid, a hawk and trowel seem to be the perfect tools for the job :thumbsup:. But since our system is drastically different, I still am convinced that knives are better suited to the trade. Like I said before... You NEED knives in this trade no matter what and when a 12" knife can do the same thing as a 12" trowel at an equal pace then the need for a trowel is rendered obsolete. I still think a trowel is a cool piece of equipment, but it belongs in the plaster field much more than in the drywall field. And I'm glad we don't plaster houses anymore as that would be a pain in the @$$!


----------



## JustMe

moore said:


> better your butt than your shoulder!


But my shoulder needs my butt to get it to where it wants to go. Not the other way around. 



thefinisher said:


> Like I said before... You NEED knives in this trade no matter what and when a 12" knife can do the same thing as a 12" trowel *at an equal pace* then the need for a trowel is rendered obsolete.


More speed, with acceptable quality, won't be rendered obsolete. It's wanted, often needed, to stay profitable enough.

The bolded part. That's the question. Can a knife person do a faster job if they were to get onto a trowel. It seems so far that those on here who knifed before troweling, stayed with troweling after. So that suggests trowels trump knives with those people, for what trowels are particularly useful for. Reality trumps speculation. Unless there's someone who hasn't spoken up yet about it, or I missed it.


----------



## Square Foot

"I still am convinced that knives are better suited to the trade"

Well...as long as you've convinced yourself...that's all that matters


----------



## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> But my shoulder needs my butt to get it to where it wants to go. Not the other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> More speed, with acceptable quality, won't be rendered obsolete. It's wanted, often needed, to stay profitable enough.
> 
> The bolded part. That's the question. Can a knife person do a faster job if they were to get onto a trowel. It seems so far that those on here who knifed before troweling, stayed with troweling after. So that suggests trowels trump knives with those people, for what trowels are particularly useful for. Reality trumps speculation. Unless there's someone who hasn't spoken up yet about it, or I missed it.


Like I said my dad who has finished for 40+ years started out using a trowel, but switched to knives as he was faster with them and he said they produced a better finish to him. I think a lot of people want to use a trowel because it does look cooler than using a knife and it makes them feel more professional... but around here you would look less professional...


----------



## Square Foot

To look cool is why I use one. As a matter of fact, I keep it in a holster on my side and when I walk on the job ( theme music playing ) everyones eyes are on me.


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> Like I said my dad who has finished for 40+ years started out using a trowel, but switched to knives as he was faster with them and he said they produced a better finish to him. I think a lot of people want to use a trowel because it does look cooler than using a knife and it makes them feel more professional... but around here you would look less professional...


 No ..They don't use them to look cool.

Canadians are born with a trowel up there a$$. I have an Uncle that's French Canadian.. He told me when I was a kid that a finisher in Canada using a pan/knife Is considered a hack.
He also told me stories of Canadian finishers that used there trowel for everything! Wipe down,,run the angles/spot nails / seams/butts/bead,,at lunch time they sliced a tomato up with the trowel for there sandwich.. :yes:

My uncle is 80 now...Still has no sense of humor...So i'm sure his stories were true.. 

If you notice ...Most of the US members here from the Great lakes area are Trowel finishers..

When I first saw a vid by Arey85 slinging that trowel around ..I went out the next day and got a 10'' flat/12'' flat,,and a 14'' curve
I play around with them on nearly every house I do..

IMO...The trowel [in the right hands] Is as close to a machine finish as you can get... 

oh!!! 12'' broad knife -$12 throw aways..
12'' trowel - $35 Last forever..:yes:

Playing around with different methods has made the only thing I know fun again! BUT...when it comes down to crunch time I throw down with what I know will git that [email protected] check in my hand:thumbsup:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Square Foot said:


> To look cool is why I use one. As a matter of fact, I keep it in a holster on my side and when I walk on the job ( theme music playing ) everyones eyes are on me.
> 
> For a Few Dollars More Soundtrack - Titoli - YouTube


ah ha ha, you beat me to the punch:thumbup:

yes, that's why I use a trowel, it makes me look so cool, I love to impress all the ladies on the job sites. Even some of the tool names sound so cool, that's why I got a knife, a bazooka, a hawk, my dry wall GUN...........
You need to sick around this site "the finisher", I look forward to reading your post


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> Like I said my dad who has finished for 40+ years started out using a trowel, but switched to knives as he was faster with them and he said they produced a better finish to him. I think a lot of people want to use a trowel because it does look cooler than using a knife and it makes them feel more professional... but around here you would look less professional...


40+ years doesn't necessarily equal 40+ years experience. Just 40+ years of time in, till the experience can be proved.

Something to consider is that your dad might not have known how to best use a trowel for himself. Example: 2buck's videos showing how to use the fingers, instead of 'wristing' things, might've been an improvement for him. Or not. 

As for looking professional with a trowel.....I think 2buck did mention that (in passing) in one of his trowel instructional videos. Go get 'im. :jester:

Around here, there can be a bit of 'I"m cooler', with a trowel. That usually seems to come from the ones who really can't use the thing too well.

Btw: Although I have stainless pans, I use a plastic pan mostly. Makes me a DIYer? 

One reason - a little, little, little reason - I use one is because it can mess with the perceptions of people who don't know me on job sites. EG. _A DIYer, on my commercial job site_!  
They at times seem a bit relieved when I don't make a mess of things.


----------



## thefinisher

Lol I knew I would stir you guys up with the cool comment . Hey 2buck, do you think you could do a whole job with only using a trowel? From getting mud out the bucket to hand taping, to finishing?


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> Lol I knew I would stir you guys up with the cool comment .


Head games, huh. 

Well, college degrees are rarely worth the paper they're mass produced on. :whistling2:


----------



## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> 40+ years doesn't necessarily equal 40+ years experience. Just 40+ years of time in, till the experience can be proved.
> 
> Something to consider is that your dad might not have known how to best use a trowel for himself. Example: 2buck's videos showing how to use the fingers, instead of 'wristing' things, might've been an improvement for him. Or not.
> 
> As for looking professional with a trowel.....I think 2buck did mention that (in passing) in one of his trowel instructional videos. Go get 'im. :jester:
> 
> Around here, there can be a bit of 'I"m cooler', with a trowel. That usually seems to come from the ones who really can't use the thing too well.
> 
> Btw: Although I have stainless pans, I use a plastic pan mostly. Makes me a DIYer?
> 
> One reason - a little, little reason - I use one is because it can mess with the perceptions of people who don't know me on job sites. EG. _A DIYer, on my commercial job site_!


 
Not too sure how to prove my dad's experience level lol. I mean he worked with a trowel for several years, more than enough time to master it. I mean he finished houses every day of his life since he was 15. He started learning he said when he was 13 and he stopped finishing everyday when he was about 48. He is now 56 and in those 8 years since stopping full time he built a very respectable business and still will do finish work every week. So that is 33 years of continuous finishing. The other 10 years he still was working. And from my perspective it seems like you use a plastic pan to look better than you are? You want people to think you are a diy'er, but then surprise them with your skills?


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> Not too sure how to prove my dad's experience level lol. I mean he worked with a trowel for several years, more than enough time to master it. I mean he finished houses every day of his life since he was 15. He started learning he said when he was 13 and he stopped finishing everyday when he was about 48. He is now 56 and in those 8 years since stopping full time he built a very respectable business and still will do finish work every week. So that is 33 years of continuous finishing. The other 10 years he still was working. And from my perspective it seems like you use a plastic pan to look better than you are? You want people to think you are a diy'er, but then surprise them with your skills?


I've seen guys working with tools for years, that they still haven't really mastered. Part of that can be because the fundamentals they learned weren't the best, but 'continuity' kept them at it.

And 'No' on your plastic pan interpretation. People see me as worse, not better, when I walk in with a plastic pan. How 'better' I really am, shows in the work.


----------



## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> Head games, huh.
> 
> Well, college degrees are rarely worth the paper they're mass produced on. :whistling2:


Like I said, haters gonna hate.


----------



## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> I've seen guys working with tools for years, that they still haven't really mastered. Part of that can be because the fundamentals they learned weren't the best, but 'continuity' kept them at it.
> 
> And 'No' on your plastic pan interpretation. People see me as worse, not better, when I walk in with a plastic pan. How 'better' I really am, shows in the work.


I guess I could say the same about your work and experience level?


----------



## moore

JustMe said:


> Head games, huh.
> 
> Well, college degrees are rarely worth the paper they're mass produced on. :whistling2:


 JOCK= Scholarship


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> Like I said, haters gonna hate.


lol. I could explain 'hasty generalization' logic fallacy to you, but don't think you'd get it. 

Not hate. Kind of feel almost sorry for the 'blinders' I see people coming out of such places with.

I spent time enough in (traditional) university to realize foolishness, stupidity, can come out the other end more often than not. It sounds so 'rational', 'reasonable' - when you don't have much background to weigh what they're teaching.

But I was lucky to have a few years of full time work behind me before going, so I could see better the heifer dust (bullsh*t). Eg. In organizational psych, friend who also worked for a time, among corporations in Toronto: "Teacher, who uses that method"? Her: "Everybody". Turns to me: "Nobody does." 

Instead, I opted for a more selective approach, than sitting warming a chair. External diploma programs based on things like this (through at times places like colleges in OXFORD - impressed yet?) :

http://www.edwdebono.com/course

Read the comment in blue background there, about his business degree program, and what he thinks.

And yes, I'm making use of it, more lately than before. Should've used it much more than what I have. But that traditional university education and the like can get in the way. Too 'programmed' into it, from public school days and upbringing.



thefinisher said:


> I guess I could say the same about your work and experience level?


Sure. It doesn't matter to me. You'd have to earn my respect before it maybe would matter. That takes a little more than 4 year degrees and helping run a drywall business. Those things are a dime a dozen to me.


----------



## moore

http://www.edwdebono.com/course

Looks like common sense rules...


----------



## JustMe

moore said:


> http://www.edwdebono.com/course
> 
> Looks like common sense rules...


Problems are that the 'sense' isn't there as much as we'd like to think we've already learned. Eg. The seeming most simple 'PMI' tool isn't quite the 'weigh the pros and cons' approach we've been taught.

As the author of the program said, we often don't do even the simplest thinking tasks that well, because we think of them as being simple and so don't put into them what they could use.


----------



## JustMe

JustMe said:


> As the author of the program said, we often don't do even the simplest thinking tasks that well, because we think of them as being simple and so don't put into them what they could use.


I should maybe add that results shown over time from his tools seem to suggest he's right, in simple to more complex thinking.


----------



## moore

JustMe said:


> Problems are that the 'sense' isn't there as much as we'd like to think we've already learned. Eg. The seeming most simple 'PMI' tool isn't quite the 'weigh the pros and cons' approach we've been taught.
> 
> As the author of the program said, we often don't do even the simplest thinking tasks that well, because we think of them as being simple and so don't put into them what they could use.


 Oh ...like yesterday ..When I cut the sheet wrong ,and yelled at my partner ...''hey! can we hang this one white side up?''
He said ...that's what happens when you think about it too long...were 1 sheet short Moore ....let's try it again!!!!!!


----------



## Tucker

I just read this whole f'n post...and didn't see one video of H/T vs. P/K...sucks..was like the build up to a climax, and nothing..


----------



## saskataper

http://www.marshalltown.com/productDetail.aspx?prodID=14760

I'm waiting for someone to say these direct pressure knives are the fastest/best/coolest way to get mud on the wall


----------



## JustMe

moore said:


> Oh ...like yesterday ..When I cut the sheet wrong ,and yelled at my partner ...''hey! can we hang this one white side up?''
> He said ...that's what happens when you think about it too long...were 1 sheet short Moore ....let's try it again!!!!!!


Certainly!

I guess.

Are you sure?


----------



## saskataper

I'm sure this thread will go on long enough for me to go buy some and figure them out then argue they are better just to get a rise out of you guys.


----------



## saskataper

Tucker said:


> I just read this whole f'n post...and didn't see one video of H/T vs. P/K...sucks..was like the build up to a climax, and nothing..


I was in a couple basements with long bulkheads today and was thinking I should have brought my knives and camera to do a video of one vs. the other. I know I like my trowels better but I don't know which would "win"


----------



## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> lol. I could explain 'hasty generalization' logic fallacy to you, but don't think you'd get it.
> 
> Not hate. Kind of feel almost sorry for the 'blinders' I see people coming out of such places with.
> 
> I spent time enough in (traditional) university to realize foolishness, stupidity, can come out the other end more often than not. It sounds so 'rational', 'reasonable' - when you don't have much background to weigh what they're teaching.
> 
> But I was lucky to have a few years of full time work behind me before going, so I could see better the heifer dust (bullsh*t). Eg. In organizational psych, friend who also worked for a time, among corporations in Toronto: "Teacher, who uses that method"? Her: "Everybody". Turns to me: "Nobody does."
> 
> Instead, I opted for a more selective approach, than sitting warming a chair. External diploma programs based on things like this (through at times places like colleges in OXFORD - impressed yet?) :
> 
> http://www.edwdebono.com/course
> 
> Read the comment in blue background there, about his business degree program, and what he thinks.
> 
> And yes, I'm making use of it, more lately than before. Should've used it much more than what I have. But that traditional university education and the like can get in the way. Too 'programmed' into it, from public school days and upbringing.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure. It doesn't matter to me. You'd have to earn my respect before it maybe would matter. That takes a little more than 4 year degrees and helping run a drywall business. Those things are a dime a dozen to me.


 
So... you have a degree? Not that it really matters anyway if you do or don't, just can help further in life. I'm not sure how me having a degree became such an issue in a h/t vs. p/k debate. I don't think I'm personally better than you lol, if that is what our getting offended by.....Anyways.. how many years of experience do you have?


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> JOCK= Scholarship


Well, I didn't have a scholarship to begin with. I was a "recruited" walk on but was a freshman all-american and then they gave me a scholarship. I was lucky enough to not acrue many student loans especially since I had a complete full ride my senior year.


----------



## sdrdrywall

So thinking about this today my daughters been helping me since she was 5 she's 10 now i hope she doesnt read this and want a raise with her 5 yrs experience:whistling2:


----------



## SlimPickins

moore said:


> How I was taught ...Know nothing else..Tried the bread pan a few times ,,but couldn't get the mud out the damn thing!!
> 
> Seams I can see ,,but running beads @ butts from a bread pan just took forever..
> 
> I am so making a vid for you Slim...


Looks like I somehow missed this one....do it! You're going to need a very sexy naked female assistant, right?


And in regard to the original topic, have we asked this question yet.......which tool produces a better finish? Not faster....better.

And...............go. 

(I'll reserve my opinion for a little later in the games)


----------



## SlimPickins

sdrdrywall said:


> So thinking about this today my daughters been helping me since she was 5 she's 10 now i hope she doesnt read this and want a raise with her 5 yrs experience:whistling2:


But dude, she's been doing drywall since she was like 5.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> Lol I knew I would stir you guys up with the cool comment . Hey 2buck, do you think you could do a whole job with only using a trowel? From getting mud out the bucket to hand taping, to finishing?


If the price is right, sure:thumbup:

here's a little vid for you TF, It's from Arey, a member of this site. He was taught the french Canadian style, their wild to watch:thumbup:... No hawk, no pan, Just a knife ,trowel and a bucket. if you want to see someone do everything with a trowel, ask him,,, nicely. Maybe he will show you he can do all things with the trowel. 

(hope you don't mind Arey, it's cool to watch)






This is a vid of a pan and knife taper TF, does your work look as good as his. Idon't think he keeps his mud pan full enough, what do you think??????:whistling2:


----------



## chris

I scoop mud out of my breadpan by the hawk load with my 12" knife...... wanna race?????????????????


----------



## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> So... you have a degree? Not that it really matters anyway if you do or don't, just can help further in life. I'm not sure how me having a degree became such an issue in a h/t vs. p/k debate. I don't think I'm personally better than you lol, if that is what our getting offended by.....Anyways.. how many years of experience do you have?


No degree. Diplomas, in such as the link I posted.
I thought about finishing my degree. Then decided it wasn't worth it, that I didn't need one to own my own company. Which I have over the years. Still have one - a newer one, but headed in a different direction from what I've done in the past, that's more suited to me - as well as working for a DWC, helping out some in-laws with their large commercial company. I do a # of jobs that especially are problem ones to them - which could be said about most jobs, in their ways. 

As for experience, are you meaning years in, or how good am I? I measure experience mostly in how good.

Instead of my giving you my subjective viewpoint on that, a few things told to me over the last while that come to mind:

- A GC's job runner on a commercial reno job, who we do all their drywall work for: "Your work is perfect, all the time." - to which I told him that he didn't see the patch I missed sanding, then. Already mentioned that one here, somewhere, for some reason I can't remember.
- The owner of a small paint company to me, on the last job I ran/did, before physio rehab that I'm on now: "I like following behind your work. Everything is always done right".
- Wife of our company's field supervisor: "He says he always knows that when you're sent out on a job, there'll be no problems, no comebacks".

That's what they say. Their thoughts.

As for how many Years I have in doing it - :whistling2:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

chris said:


> I scoop mud out of my breadpan by the hawk load with my 12" knife...... wanna race?????????????????


who:whistling2:


----------



## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> This is a vid of a pan and knife taper TF, does your work look as good as his. Idon't think he keeps his mud pan full enough, what do you think??????:whistling2:
> 
> 
> Home Remodeling: Mudding Drywall : Mudding Drywall: Applying 3rd Coat of Joint Compound - YouTube


Why 2Buck, Why? Why do you want to hurt me this way? I'm tempted to cut my eyes out with a 14" knife after watching that. Oh wait......I don't own a 14" knife. Phew.


----------



## chris

2buckcanuck said:


> who:whistling2:


 Whoever . When it comes to emptying buckets a pan is the weapon of choice:yes:. How would you 1rst coat ANYTHING besides screws without packin a bucket at your hip all day with a trowel knife combo? Not knocking it cause its neat to watch and all .H&T Is great for a touchup or 2nd run but when your aiming to get it wet in a hurry (1rst coat bead) P&K all the way. H&T, T&K , P&K whatever works, I just do whats best


----------



## chris

and Im a lil buzzed:thumbsup:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

chris said:


> and Im a lil buzzed:thumbsup:


game on, I was hoping you would say 1st coat on bead









Just give me a week or two, no house till next week


----------



## chris

:thumbsup: Sounds good. Just so you know I will be using a 10 for 1rst coat and knife checking after


----------



## 2buckcanuck

chris said:


> :thumbsup: Sounds good. Just so you know I will be using a 10 for 1rst coat and knife checking after


What ever,,, just make sure you get a box of these, your going to need some:thumbup::whistling2:


----------



## thefinisher

Jesus, that guy doing that remodel video is GOD AWFUL. I want to punch him in the face . Arey's video is interesting though, but dang it is like he is so close to being so much better. Just grab a pan or a hawk please! Work looks ok but god is it slow going. No offense to Arey but man he would be so much better with a pan taping and a hawk for finishing. I wonder if he was just hand taping there to show he can do it with a trowel/knife or if he uses a banjo/bazooka regularly. I would rather practice falling down than hand tape like that lol.


----------



## thefinisher

sdrdrywall said:


> So thinking about this today my daughters been helping me since she was 5 she's 10 now i hope she doesnt read this and want a raise with her 5 yrs experience:whistling2:


Is she actually learning the trade? If she is then I would call it experience. I was on my dad's jobs at 5 helping do what I could, but it wasn't until I was 7 that I began to actually do a lot of work. When I was 7 I learned how to do nails and angles. When I was 8 I started learing how to run joints and butt joints. When I was 9 I started running bead as well. By the time I was 10 I could finish on my own with no problems with nobody going in behind me to check my work at all. I was very good finisher by the time I was 12. Now well I'm about to turn 23 in 2 days. You can say what you want about my experience level, but I count my years since I was 7.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> Is she actually learning the trade? If she is then I would call it experience. I was on my dad's jobs at 5 helping do what I could, but it wasn't until I was 7 that I began to actually do a lot of work. When I was 7 I learned how to do nails and angles. When I was 8 I started learing how to run joints and butt joints. When I was 9 I started running bead as well. By the time I was 10 I could finish on my own with no problems with nobody going in behind me to check my work at all. I was very good finisher by the time I was 12. Now well I'm about to turn 23 in 2 days. You can say what you want about my experience level, but I count my years since I was 7.


Slow learner eh', I mastered everything on the first day:whistling2:

And quit hinting about your birthday, were not getting you anything:thumbup:


----------



## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> Slow learner eh', I mastered everything on the first day:whistling2:
> 
> And quit hinting about your birthday, were not getting you anything:thumbup:


LOL I don't think I will be getting anything for my birthday anyway. Although my dad may just add some extra on my check tomorrow... hopefully.


----------



## VANMAN

2buckcanuck said:


> If the price is right, sure:thumbup:
> 
> here's a little vid for you TF, It's from Arey, a member of this site. He was taught the french Canadian style, their wild to watch:thumbup:... No hawk, no pan, Just a knife ,trowel and a bucket. if you want to see someone do everything with a trowel, ask him,,, nicely. Maybe he will show you he can do all things with the trowel.
> 
> (hope you don't mind Arey, it's cool to watch)
> I must say he has it down good 2 the way he works but:blink:
> Buy a hawlk,Buy a pan,buy a banjo,buy a box just buy something and stop flapping that scraper about like its a sword!!
> Its not a scraper dance we do its get the sh*t on the wall and get out of there!!
> No disrespect intended:thumbsup:


----------



## Mudshark

moore said:


> Hawk @ knife ..It's how I was taught .
> 
> I have never tried the pan . but after watching one of 2bucks vids
> with 2bj wipe his flat tapes with the pan held close to the wall to catch his mud ...I may have to give the pan a go on the tape coat.:thumbsup:


Cant imagine wiping tapes without a knife and pan. For the rest no contest the hawk and trowel is faster once you master it.


----------



## JustMe

2buckcanuck said:


> Slow learner eh', I mastered everything on the first day:whistling2:


D*mn, you're fast. Took me 6 months. :notworthy:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

JustMe said:


> D*mn, you're fast. Took me 6 months. :notworthy:


Things are getting really deep in this thread, just thought I would make things a little bit deeper, so everyone could get their boots on, including the sheep:thumbup:


----------



## JustMe

2buckcanuck said:


> Things are getting really deep in this thread, just thought I would make things a little bit deeper, so everyone could get their boots on, including the sheep:thumbup:


Maybe this thread belongs in Field General's Being a Prophet of Profits thread already. Could give an example for his Paul Bunyan/John Henry Syndrome, and "the effects of living the tall tale". You end up wading in it. 



Field General said:


> The "*Paul Bunyan Syndrome" ... The "John Henry Syndrome*" ... *The effects of living the tall tale ... bigger than life *... can be a strength and a weakness. That which does not kill us, makes us stronger and defines us ... if it does not "kill" us.
> 
> Why are you doing "what" you're doing and "how"? What did you do, how did you do it and why? *What are some of your stories that seem to cross the line between what's "real" and what's mythical ... tall tales?*


----------



## moore

I said.. I would make a vid next week of me running bead with H/K..
and I will ! But it won't be posted on this thread or uploaded on U-tube till I see a vid on this thread by the 'finisher' of his Mexicans at work...tape/coat/skim---whatever.....And don't give me that chit about ..I don't have a camera...I'm sure you ,,and your ole man make enough off your help to afford A $60 camera from wal-mart..
Better yet,,,,A vid of 'the finisher'' at work with his BC years of finishing would suit me to a T...


You show me yours .....I'll show you mine. Till then... I boycott this thread from any vids.....I speak for myself ...But I hope for back-up
:whistling2:


----------



## Arey85

Before I started doing drywall full time I used knives and pans and hawks but never a trowel. Remodeling got slow and I started working for a French Canadian guy taping. He told me I had to buy a proper knife (he cut it down for me) and a few trowels. I started learning all over again. Now I can't imagine using anything else. I do everything by hand with nothin but one knife and an assortment of trowels. A 12" flat for tape coat and beads. A 12" curved for second coat seams. And butt boarded butts. A 16" curved for the entire finish coat. I knife my beads on the finish. And an 18" flat for bad butts and skimming. I've tried to go back to the hawk once and a while skimming out ceilings and messing around at the end of the day, but I drop mud everywhere and it doesn't come out good. I have a system and I'll stick with it. It may be slower than auto tools but I can hold my own. Me and my partner are taping a 500 sheet house with 10 boxes of no coat and 60 sticks of bead and just the two of us will get it done in two weeks. I've never used a banjo and I dont understand the pan. I keep my mud right in a bucket right next to me on a dolly and I rarely have to walk over to it to unload mud. I can fling it pretty far and hardly ever miss. But usually a just fling it to the next seam I'm going to cost. The wall is my hawk and my bucket is my pan, which I don't have to waste one of my "productive" hands carrying around. but it's all I know.


----------



## moore

Arey85 said:


> Before I started doing drywall full time I used knives and pans and hawks but never a trowel. Remodeling got slow and I started working for a French Canadian guy taping. He told me I had to buy a proper knife (he cut it down for me) and a few trowels. I started learning all over again. Now I can't imagine using anything else. I do everything by hand with nothin but one knife and an assortment of trowels. A 12" flat for tape coat and beads. A 12" curved for second coat seams. And butt boarded butts. A 16" curved for the entire finish coat. I knife my beads on the finish. And an 18" flat for bad butts and skimming. I've tried to go back to the hawk once and a while skimming out ceilings and messing around at the end of the day, but I drop mud everywhere and it doesn't come out good. I have a system and I'll stick with it. It may be slower than auto tools but I can hold my own. Me and my partner are taping a 500 sheet house with 10 boxes of no coat and 60 sticks of bead and just the two of us will get it done in two weeks. I've never used a banjo and I dont understand the pan. I keep my mud right in a bucket right next to me on a dolly and I rarely have to walk over to it to unload mud. I can fling it pretty far and hardly ever miss. But usually a just fling it to the next seam I'm going to cost. The wall is my hawk and my bucket is my pan, which I don't have to waste one of my "productive" hands carrying around. but it's all I know.


 Thank you!!:thumbsup:


----------



## JustMe

Arey85 said:


> It may be slower than auto tools but I can hold my own.


It was different, interesting. :thumbsup: I would've enjoyed watching it more, if I hadn't kept thinking "I wonder how long he's going to be able to keep doing that, before body parts start breaking down".

Maybe a few auto tools - like even just some basic angle ones - could be a thought?


----------



## 2buckcanuck

moore said:


> I said.. I would make a vid next week of me running bead with H/K..
> and I will ! But it won't be posted on this thread or uploaded on U-tube till I see a vid on this thread by the 'finisher' of his Mexicans at work...tape/coat/skim---whatever.....And don't give me that chit about ..I don't have a camera...I'm sure you ,,and your ole man make enough off your help to afford A $60 camera from wal-mart..
> Better yet,,,,A vid of 'the finisher'' at work with his BC years of finishing would suit me to a T...
> 
> 
> You show me yours .....I'll show you mine. Till then... I boycott this thread from any vids.....I speak for myself ...But I hope for back-up


Agreed, we should make our vids, but hold on to them till Thefinisher produces a vid also. Hopefully Chris agrees too.

Hey "thefinisher" since your birthday is in 2 days, maybe you can ask your mommy or daddy to get you a camera:yes:



Arey85 said:


> Before I started doing drywall full time I used knives and pans and hawks but never a trowel. Remodeling got slow and I started working for a French Canadian guy taping. He told me I had to buy a proper knife (he cut it down for me) and a few trowels. I started learning all over again. Now I can't imagine using anything else. I do everything by hand with nothin but one knife and an assortment of trowels. A 12" flat for tape coat and beads. A 12" curved for second coat seams. And butt boarded butts. A 16" curved for the entire finish coat. I knife my beads on the finish. And an 18" flat for bad butts and skimming. I've tried to go back to the hawk once and a while skimming out ceilings and messing around at the end of the day, but I drop mud everywhere and it doesn't come out good. I have a system and I'll stick with it. It may be slower than auto tools but I can hold my own. Me and my partner are taping a 500 sheet house with 10 boxes of no coat and 60 sticks of bead and just the two of us will get it done in two weeks. I've never used a banjo and I dont understand the pan. I keep my mud right in a bucket right next to me on a dolly and I rarely have to walk over to it to unload mud. I can fling it pretty far and hardly ever miss. But usually a just fling it to the next seam I'm going to cost. The wall is my hawk and my bucket is my pan, which I don't have to waste one of my "productive" hands carrying around. but it's all I know.


"The wall is my hawk"

Your bang on with that statement:thumbsup:


----------



## harvey randall

*hawk trowel-knife pan*

every thing has a place in life.1, a card board knife from a box lid, 4,5,6 knife in angle, i would use a pan. a pussie pan 12 inch. bull nose knife with the perfect crack in the vinal houseing, knives for pitches your knuckle wont fit into with a trowel. blah-blah -blah. i think it would be fun to run some metal against the best in hawk and trowel. i have never been a graceful any thing. but.......... there was a time when i was god awful, scary, now at 57-5' 7", probably not. i went up against the best pan and knife man brady company had to offer, 20 years ago in cal. he was great, great sense of the humor, etc. the kind of man you would hold in high esteem as a working cohort, and or a neighbor. i beat him by 30 %. i was 38 he was 30. (same body structure) he didnt smoke or drink-alcohol. the bottom line is Blake Hittle the forman brought brady the owner on the job to meet the only man in the company- that ran hawk and trowel in california.(that last part is my pathetic ego crying out) but the whole thing is the truth. PAN versus HAWK-and in this corner-big larry said- i didnt like your smart ass mouth- but the hawk and trowel---- it speaks volumes. thanks lar. just glad i had those years to live on now.harve


----------



## gazman

I am with you Moore:thumbsup:. I made a little vid the other day running a 12" trowel on a flat (man am I out of practice) but it wont see the light of day until a certain someone puts up.:yes:


----------



## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> Agreed, we should make our vids, but hold on to them till Thefinisher produces a vid also. Hopefully Chris agrees too.
> 
> Hey "thefinisher" since your birthday is in 2 days, maybe you can ask your mommy or daddy to get you a camera:yes:
> 
> 
> 
> "The wall is my hawk"
> 
> Your bang on with that statement:thumbsup:


They aint going to get me a camera. I don't want anything for my birthday, nor do I ask for anything. I can take phone pictures though. And, I don't want to take vids of our finishers because it doesn't prove my abilities. Right now we are actually busy, and I don't have anything to personally do. When we slow down a bit I will be able to finish something myself. Got a 550 board house next week to start on, maybe I can take some pictures of our process.


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> I said.. I would make a vid next week of me running bead with H/K..
> and I will ! But it won't be posted on this thread or uploaded on U-tube till I see a vid on this thread by the 'finisher' of his Mexicans at work...tape/coat/skim---whatever.....And don't give me that chit about ..I don't have a camera...I'm sure you ,,and your ole man make enough off your help to afford A $60 camera from wal-mart..
> Better yet,,,,A vid of 'the finisher'' at work with his BC years of finishing would suit me to a T...
> 
> 
> You show me yours .....I'll show you mine. Till then... I boycott this thread from any vids.....I speak for myself ...But I hope for back-up
> :whistling2:


 
We actually don't make much off our help compared to how much overhead we have to carry. Moore, you really dislike that we use mexicans huh? We don't use them for everything. Yes they do the brunt of the work hanging-sanding, but anything besides that me and my dad do personally. All point-ups, repairs, patches, etc are done by us. We also will finish out smaller jobs that we don't want to bother our workers with. Sometimes I wish we just still finished as it wouldn't be as stressful. But Moore, Gaz, 2buck, if you wait long enough I may be able to do something for you guys. I want to do a video of me doing some hand taping, then bedding the same area, then skimming, then sanding, but we have to get a job like this first.


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## SlimPickins

thefinisher said:


> We actually don't make much off our help compared to how much overhead we have to carry. Moore, you really dislike that we use mexicans huh? We don't use them for everything. Yes they do the brunt of the work hanging-sanding, but anything besides that me and my dad do personally. All point-ups, repairs, patches, etc are done by us. We also will finish out smaller jobs that we don't want to bother our workers with. Sometimes I wish we just still finished as it wouldn't be as stressful. But Moore, Gaz, 2buck, if you wait long enough I may be able to do something for you guys. I want to do a video of me doing some hand taping, then bedding the same area, then skimming, then sanding, but we have to get a job like this first.


Hey man, here's the way I see it. You seem like a nice enough kid who takes a lot of pride in your involvement in the family business. That's great. Really.

However, these guys in here, they've all been doing this drywall thing for a long time, some of them for over 40 years. I think one thing perhaps ALL of us have learned is that anyone who's ever touched a drywall knife for a few minutes has "finished some drywall and I'm really good at it". If a person wants to make claims about superiority in any aspect of their trade/life/whatever they have to be willing to back it up. Personally, I think it's best to not make such claims. I'm a guy, who does work, and does it in such a way that clients are happy and builders call back repeatedly even though the price is on the upper end of "affordable". That's my "bragging"....I keep working.

I know lots of guys with 30 years in the trade who can't float a butt joint.


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## JustMe

I did work with a 22-23 year old last year for part of a job - a new school. He was in and out of the trade while doing other things, starting I think about 14-16. He was a hawk & troweler, and was good at whatever I and others put him on.


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## JustMe

JustMe said:


> I did work with a 22-23 year old last year for part of a job - a new school. He was in and out of the trade while doing other things, starting I think about 14-16. He was a hawk & troweler, and was good at whatever I and others put him on.


Just sayin', just in case.


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## thefinisher

started a new thread with a short walk around video of a little renovation job I did. beware though it is awful quality. Guess I'm going to have to find a better way to video some of my work.....


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## moore

thefinisher said:


> started a new thread with a short walk around video of a little renovation job I did. beware though it is awful quality. Guess I'm going to have to find a better way to video some of my work.....


 :thumbsup: I'll post a vid of my white boy /jack-leg finishing Monday..
Your a good sport ''finisher'' :thumbsup: Just in case I'm too hungover to post in the morning.....HAPPY BIRTHDAY!:thumbup:


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## thefinisher

moore said:


> :thumbsup: I'll post a vid of my white boy /jack-leg finishing Monday..
> Your a good sport ''finisher'' :thumbsup: Just in case I'm too hungover to post in the morning.....HAPPY BIRTHDAY!:thumbup:


Haha I'm drinking right now too :thumbup: and thanks for the happy birthday . I'll be up in the morning and will be on here startin trouble :yes:


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## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> Haha I'm drinking right now too :thumbup: and thanks for the happy birthday . I'll be up in the morning and will be on here startin trouble :yes:


Thanks for the warning:thumbup:

Now I must remember to not come on here Saturday









So I don't half to wish you happy birthday:thumbup:


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## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> Thanks for the warning:thumbup:
> 
> Now I must remember to not come on here Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I don't half to wish you happy birthday:thumbup:


Up for another round of knife vs. hawk debate? I did pick a trowel up today... but I put it back down and walked away. Maybe I will get one to play with one day.


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## moore

thefinisher said:


> Up for another round of knife vs. hawk debate? I did pick a trowel up today... but I put it back down and walked away. Maybe I will get one to play with one day.


 ah ha!!!! That trowel you walked by in the stucco section....
YOU bought it ! You did! I know you did!!!!:tt2::lol:


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## thefinisher

moore said:


> ah ha!!!! That trowel you walked by in the stucco section....
> YOU bought it ! You did! I know you did!!!!:tt2::lol:


No sir I didn't...... Just carefully examined it and put it back down. I could probably get it and charge it to the business account :whistling2: As far as I know it was a stucco trowel, but it said finishing trowel on it


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## moore

thefinisher said:


> No sir I didn't...... Just carefully examined it and put it back down. I could probably get it and charge it to the business account :whistling2: As far as I know it was a stucco trowel, but it said finishing trowel on it


 what brand of broad knifes do you use?


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## thefinisher

moore said:


> what brand of broad knifes do you use?


I need to look at the ones I like the best. Had them for so long that they are all worn down. They are wood handled, stainless steel, and have a yellow tang (part attched to handle lol). I also like the wallboard knives that are carbon steel and yellow plastic handles. Ames has a similar knife as well. My favorite 6" knife is mayde by Hyde and has the metal bottomed handle so I can beat in stuff :yes:j



those knives look kind of like this







Rafael taping Knives?


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## thefinisher

I just did some searching and can't find the manufacturer of those knives..... Btw moore I have a walboard 14" that I really like and I also don't mind kraft knives.


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## CatD7

West said:


> I use hawk and trowel for all coating, i think I might have converted at least 20 pan and knife tapers to H&T, never ever pressured any of them into it but when they watched how more efficient it is they always bugged me to train them on it. I use a Curry 13"X 4.5" trowel and a 14" Mag hawk for all my coating.


 
I was never "trained" on either technique by anyone/. I can do what I can do because of practice and effort. It is just a process of denial and error.


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## moore

JustMe said:


> I know a crackhead P&Ker who'd maybe take him on. If I could find him.
> 
> Don't know if he'd do as well as 2bjr, though. It's been awhile for me to remember just how fast he could be on such things, when he wanted to be.
> 
> Quality comparison - how the 1st coat affects what comes after, like the 2nd and maybe 3rd coat; can how the 1st coat was done do away with the need for a 3rd coat at times; drying times needed for each coat, based on how it was done; sanding time needed between coats, and the final sand; the amount of checkout; clean up needed; potential callbacks - that's what I also look at, when it comes to speed. A slower 1st coat can end up being a faster 1st coat, when all factors are considered.


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2VVZ1xLjKU&feature=youtu.be:D


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## moore

mudslingr said:


> I was thinking for those who can use both to post a vid of themselves using each application on the same kind of bead set up just to see the time difference. Just a test. I don't care how long it takes anyone. Just do your best and see which you do quicker. We can compare later.
> A standard eight foot bead is too easy. That's all. Not looking to start a war.:thumbsup:


 I'll make a vid of the skim on a tv box today.
Tried to record the block ,,but the camera bit the dust .
dust and cameras don't mix..3 cameras in 1 year..


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## thefinisher

Not bad Moore. Looks like you like to take you time to make sure it all looks good. BTW those knives I was talking about with the wood handle and yellow tang were made by stanley/goldblatt. They are older knives, I don't think they make them that way anymore.


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## 2buckcanuck

moore said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2VVZ1xLjKU&feature=youtu.be:D


Moore:blink::blink::blink:

How many coats do you put on your bead???????


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## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> Moore:blink::blink::blink:
> 
> How many coats do you put on your bead???????


Looked like the first coat on paper faced bead to me . I imagine it would be just one more coat.


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## moore

thefinisher said:


> Not bad Moore. Looks like you like to take you time to make sure it all looks good. BTW those knives I was talking about with the wood handle and yellow tang were made by stanley/goldblatt. They are older knives, I don't think they make them that way anymore.


 How often do you pitch your knifes?


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## moore

2buckcanuck said:


> Moore:blink::blink::blink:
> 
> How many coats do you put on your bead???????


 Speck home 1'' out of square ? 2 Coats .then sand,,sand,,sand.

Custom home...Duckies all in a row.

2 fill coats / side stripe/ onion skin [email protected] Then sand edge with 180 ..

Were talking bead here....They will never be level !
on sand day ..Check your bead with a 4' level.


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## DLSdrywall

moore said:


> Speck home 1'' out of square ? 2 Coats .then sand,,sand,,sand.
> 
> Custom home...Duckies all in a row.
> 
> 2 fill coats / side stripe/ onion skin [email protected] Then sand edge with 180 ..
> 
> Were talking bead here....They will never be level !
> on sand day ..Check your bead with a 4' level.


It's too late to check your beads on sanding day


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## thefinisher

moore said:


> How often do you pitch your knifes?


Really not all that often. I find that all my good knives have lasted for years. Those goldblatt/stanley knives have lasted for I know almost 10 years now. I have filed them and kept the blades as straight as possible after multiple drops and what not. My carbon steel knives tend to go sooner but I have a 14" wallboard that I have had for several years. It has a ripple down the blade but as soon as you put it on the wall it flattens right out. Shoot I have had my 6" knife for almost as long as I have been finishing. I love when my 6 gets worn and really flexible to where my edge is about as sharp as my pocket knife . My stainless kraft knives have also held up for several years.


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## moore

thefinisher said:


> Really not all that often. I find that all my good knives have lasted for years. Those goldblatt/stanley knives have lasted for I know almost 10 years now. I have filed them and kept the blades as straight as possible after multiple drops and what not. My carbon steel knives tend to go sooner but I have a 14" wallboard that I have had for several years. It has a ripple down the blade but as soon as you put it on the wall it flattens right out. Shoot I have had my 6" knife for almost as long as I have been finishing. I love when my 6 gets worn and really flexible to where my edge is about as sharp as my pocket knife . My stainless kraft knives have also held up for several years.


 How close are you to your tool bag?


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## A smooth finish

I seem to loose knives or they get stolen before I replace them


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## thefinisher

moore said:


> How close are you to your tool bag?


Um, about 20 minutes away lol. They stay at my dad's house. I will be back there in about 8 hrs .


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## moore

thefinisher said:


> Um, about 20 minutes away lol. They stay at my dad's house. I will be back there in about 8 hrs .


 Broad knifes are throw a ways... When the blade starts to curve it's time to toss..the file will only make it worse!
I pitch my broad knifes once a month. 

What's $30 to a $3.000 to $4.000 job? 

How often do you change the blades on your boxes?
That's how often you should toss the broad knifes!!


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> Broad knifes are throw a ways... When the blade starts to curve it's time to toss..the file will only make it worse!
> I pitch my broad knifes once a month.
> 
> What's $30 to a $3.000 to $4.000 job?
> 
> How often do you change the blades on your boxes?
> That's how often you should toss the broad knifes!!


That's sad really  Another symptom of a disposable society. I've had my trowel since 95, and it's even better than when I bought it.:thumbsup:


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## Square Foot

SlimPickins said:


> That's sad really  Another symptom of a disposable society. I've had my trowel since 95, and it's even better than when I bought it.:thumbsup:


Yeah, trowels ( carbon and stainless ) seem to last, but not so much with knives. The last decent SS knife I had was back in the 80's....I don't even bother with them anymore, I just get blue steel.


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## moore

SlimPickins said:


> That's sad really  Another symptom of a disposable society. I've had my trowel since 95, and it's even better than when I bought it.:thumbsup:


 That's a trowel Slim..Not a broad knife.
The broad knifes I had in 95 were tossed in 95!


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## DLSdrywall

I'm the same moore i pitch mine after a month or so because they start to get soft and take off too much mud..so for the 10$ i spend it goes in the trash, well spent/earned.:thumbsup:


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> That's sad really  Another symptom of a disposable society. I've had my trowel since 95, and it's even better than when I bought it.:thumbsup:


See slim, us trowel guys are more environmentally friendly, were green tapers:thumbup:

A trowel can last you a life time of taping. I remember one job, a old taper was bragging about how long he owned one particular trowel. It had become his favourite skimming trowel, and was well over 20 years old. Then a few days later, some prick broke it on him, unpurpose. It looked like he was going to cry, well he showed me what happened to it:blink:


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> See slim, us trowel guys are more environmentally friendly, were green tapers:thumbup:
> 
> A trowel can last you a life time of taping. I remember one job, a old taper was bragging about how long he owned one particular trowel. It had become his favourite skimming trowel, and was well over 20 years old. Then a few days later, some prick broke it on him, unpurpose. It looked like he was going to cry, well he showed me what happened to it:blink:


That's actually a very sad story  I don't know what I'd do if anything happened to my baby. I have a beater for top coats, it's shorter and more stiff, but when it's time to make it pretty I take out the good one. I get bummed if it gets even a tiny nick in the blade, because then I have to rework the whole edge.....and nothing smooths a blade like drywall paper:thumbsup: (unless you have a piece of 1500 grit laying around:whistling2


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