# Level 5



## tricounty dwall

ok im bidding a job its a drs office. And he wants a level 4 finish. thats no problem. But then he asked whats the price difference for level 5. And like i told him id have to full skim everything. Its a 400 board job all 10' ceilings. How much a sq ft would u charge. We never do it around here so i dont know what to quote him


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## Saul_Surfaces

I'd nearly double my level 4 price if I were skimming and sanding twice after getting to level 4. But I don't do much of it either.


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## tricounty dwall

yeah thats a lot of work. i dont want to quote to much or to little


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## 2buckcanuck

not dd level 4,don't forget you will be one less coat on the screws,beads,three ways,butts,short joints etc ,,,,,I would still 12" flats,10 foot high sucks but is it stand ups (office) some thread on here about level 5,use paint roller and trowel ,2 man system though, it's not that bad,it's the sanding thats going to kill u and eat up your time,2 days extra in time maybe ,hit them for a dime (labour) let us know how it goes if u do it and what you learn,I see level 5 coming every where damn internet (the highway of information)


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## tricounty dwall

yeah i figured 5 or 6 a sheet a least. But its all layed down. No drop ceiling all slick ceilings.


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## SlimPickins

I think a _starting_ price would be $0.10 a foot. Materials are negligible. A partner and I were doing 50ftx20ft high walls on a man lift, 4 walls to the room and it took half a day. You can thin the skim material from the first bucket and reuse it, but after that it gums up too fast and you have to toss it. My partner was wiping with a GOOD 14" knife, it was on the stiff side. Roll it on, wipe it right back off, paying attention to direction of seams and butts. If you do it right, sanding is nothing...you're basically just spending the time to look it over with a light (I took a 250 watt halogen and painted the aluminum guard inside flat black....to achieve more of a point source, then I attached it to a handle).


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## d-rock

.25-.75


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## cazna

Hi, Read my thread on, Level 5, spraying mud??? if you havent already, it works well, i found i didnt need to top coat the joins/corners, if its taped and 2nd coated well then i just rolled on and troweled off everything twice, yes twice, with a 14inch trowel. I found once wasnt really enough its a very thin coat so doing it twice leveled it off great and then just a 360 pole sand was enough, its amazing how smooth and ridge free it becomes and its ablity to fill over things and level them out.
Put the stilts on for troweling off the ceilings and a man on the ground rolling, dont roll to far ahead or you wont be able to smooth it down very well. Its a two man thing really if you have a lot to do.

Cant help you much on price, You all seem to be on foot rates, Im mostly on hrs and if i price i guess the time and charge for the hrs, seems to work out ok for me, I guess if i did foot rates then possably i could earn more but foot rates get a bit confusing on a patch up or bathroom or small reno then hrs are easier, Maybe a thread on How do you charge, Hrs or ft rates might be interesting??


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## 2buckcanuck

tricounty you half to give us feed back if you get the job,it's funny you put this thread up for we (partner) were just talking this week , what do we charge for a level 5 job,more and more requests for it.worst part some expecting it for free or do certain areas for free (bathrooms,sunshine walls,living rooms etc)
nuts


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## cazna

I think Im starting to just do it now in light areas and not say its an extra, just put it in the costs, Clients are more educated on things now, ok it costs more but you do save on not having to top coat. smaller areas im just skimming out by hand, larger areas out come the big fluffy lambswool roller, Still work in progress but i think this is where im heading, well today anyway??


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## 2buckcanuck

i hear you cazna,but I think what tricounty is trying to say is,xx amount for level 3,xx amount for level 4,what xx amount for level 5,doing things for piece work,how many more pennys per sq ft. (I hope thats what he is asking) I love the p/w,can't stand by the hour,could start another thread on that comet,
but it's what you said,more people being educated on stuff,they want the best,level 5 sounds the best,but I'm not doing it for free


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## 2buckcanuck

Cant help you much on price, You all seem to be on foot rates, Im mostly on hrs and if i price i guess the time and charge for the hrs, seems to work out ok for me, I guess if i did foot rates then possably i could earn more but foot rates get a bit confusing on a patch up or bathroom or small reno then hrs are easier, Maybe a thread on How do you charge, Hrs or ft rates might be interesting??[/quote]
say your set p/w price is 10 cents,I would say 4000 sq ft is your middle point,so 4000 x10 =........but hold on its 9 foot high add a penny,no spray painted ceilings,add 3 cents,vaulted ceiling,add a penny,sky light add a penny,level 5 add ??????
under 4000 sq ft you start to up the cents so 1500 sq ft x 25 cents,or 1000 sq ft x 35 etc.....anything under that you do what you said ,this many hours so.....
and you can incorporate your materials in too,dry wall cost me xx sq ft ,tape material 6 cents etc...
sure guys will add to this,the main thing is you got to find your set price (cents) that covers your tax,gas,tools,insurance,make $$$$$$ hopes this helps you a little bit,pw the way to (but not all the time)
{prices made up by the way}


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## Mudstar

level 5 done with drywall compound is not practical this days or is the best way to achieve true smooth wall finish. There is products out there that do the job with out having to skim out entire areas with drywall compounds. Price the same as priming plus the cost of leveler and you won't go wrong.


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## cazna

Those level 5 spray or roll products can go wrong, very wrong, I have done it.

Did the best level 4 we could then sprayed it with the level five and re checked with the light, you can still make out some nail spots and seam lines, these products only make the walls smooth, NOT level or fill any real chips, bruses, scratches you may have missed and its expencive stuff, topping is far more economic, yes its a little more work but you dont need to top coat or mask things up either, or have a expensive sprayer and spend time setting up or cleaning it.

A Level 5 rolled and smoothed off wall with topping mud is as perfact as you could possably get it, everything is filled over and smoothed out, you can feel it and pick things up as you smooth it down and fix it as you go, the spray products wont do that, spary products need a sanded level 4 then they need a sand as well, thats sanding the wall twice, rolled and smoothed down is sanding once.

Now im the first to admit nz is far behind with this finish so i am too, you have far more access to products in canada and usa than we do, Dulux do a roll on surfacer that is horrable, and a spray ultrahide level 5, resene do a 3 in 1 as they call it, undercoat, sealer, and top coat all in one which i have not tryed, sheetrock tuff hide is here but i can get nearly 5 boxes of mud or 1 bucket of tuff hide for the same cost, and i need a bigger expensive sprayer, I have only used the dulux ultrahide and this is my findings so im keen to hear others experances if they will step up and share.

Mudstar you make these claims but rarely back any of it up with a real life story, how about stepping up and sharing some of your experances for a change, :thumbsup: Thanks Mate.


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## 2buckcanuck

is that those newer gypsum based primers,mudstar,so we can pass the buck onto the painters,just wondering.
maybe the mods should erase all comments to level 5 finish.dont want those D.I.Y and H.O. finding out about it on here.
we should give it a code name,something like the "whole nine yards" or something:yes::jester:


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## Mudstar

cazna said:


> Mudstar you make these claims but rarely back any of it up with a real life story, how about stepping up and sharing some of your experances for a change, :thumbsup: Thanks Mate.


Its your choice to story tell and mine not to but to point out facts of the trade is all I care to share. 

I'm in business to make money not to tell you how I did it that would be a trade secret wouldn't it

:whistling2:


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## tricounty dwall

ty for all the input. I got the job but still talking about the level 5. If we do it ill let yall know how it goes. Ty guys


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## Al Taper

d-rock said:


> .25-.75


Thats what I was thinking. But on the higher price..
Hear union guys gettting $1.25 a foot for spray level 5 two coats.


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## Saul_Surfaces

Mudstar said:


> Its your choice to story tell and mine not to but to point out facts of the trade is all I care to share.
> 
> I'm in business to make money not to tell you how I did it that would be a trade secret wouldn't it
> 
> :whistling2:


mudstar, you're such a ****. I really hope the great white north means northern US and not Canada. I'd hate to think I had anything in common with you besides career.


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## cazna

Mudstar said:


> Its your choice to story tell and mine not to but to point out facts of the trade is all I care to share.
> 
> I'm in business to make money not to tell you how I did it that would be a trade secret wouldn't it
> 
> :whistling2:


 
Your not really pointing out any facts of the trade at all, nothing, zip, zero.

So your just sitting back reading and absorbing info and selfishly keeping things to your self then, oh well i did invite you to interact, your choice then, Im glad there is not more people on here treating the forum like that, what a crap forum it would be. There would be no point or as you sometimes put it, lock up the forum.


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## cazna

tricounty dwall said:


> ty for all the input. I got the job but still talking about the level 5. If we do it ill let yall know how it goes. Ty guys


Let us know how you go tricounty, :thumbsup:


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## Mudstar

cazna said:


> Your not really pointing out any facts of the trade at all, nothing, zip, zero.
> 
> So your just sitting back reading and absorbing info and selfishly keeping things to your self then, oh well i did invite you to interact, your choice then, Im glad there is not more people on here treating the forum like that, what a crap forum it would be. There would be no point or as you sometimes put it, lock up the forum.


I guess all the input I have done on here means nothing and the words you put in my mouth say it all. 

I'm not one to speak for others and I know I'm not one to bash a fellow tradesmen. 

I hope you the best of luck with figuring out what your doing in this trade


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## Mudstar

Saul_Surfaces said:


> mudstar, you're such a ****. I really hope the great white north means northern US and not Canada. I'd hate to think I had anything in common with you besides career.


We don't have much in common Saul. You use fiber tape I don't, you use setting compounds I don't, you like strait-flexI don't, you just wait to hear the next trick to try, I'm still taping the same way as I always have.

I don't hate to say you don't have anything in common Saul I think that's a good thing 

:thumbsup:


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## cazna

Mudstar said:


> I guess all the input I have done on here means nothing and the words you put in my mouth say it all.
> 
> I'm not one to speak for others and I know I'm not one to bash a fellow tradesmen.
> 
> I hope you the best of luck with figuring out what your doing in this trade


 
Bla bla bla, its a waste of time interacting with you, you talk up how good you are and how you know it all, but your empty, it does mean nothing, just read back through your posts, its all unhelpful nothing, bla bla bla.


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## Mudstar

cazna said:


> Bla bla bla, its a waste of time interacting with you, you talk up how good you are and how you know it all, but your empty, it does mean nothing, just read back through your posts, its all unhelpful nothing, bla bla bla.



Add me to you ignore list, that will solve your issue cazna I'm going to add you so anything you have to say won't be acknowledged 

:thumbsup:


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## cazna

Didnt even know there was an ignore list?

All i asked for was you to step up and reply with something helpful to back up your statements, A forum is hardly the place to be involved in and keep so called trade secerts to yourself when the purpose of a forum is to learn and help others, I didnt think that was to much to ask.


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## redgy85

Hi Digga, a level 5 starts at the frame stage, it must be good! then your sheet joints must run towards the light. Joints finished to a high standard then a full skim coat, spray follows the surface were as trowelling fills imperfections, the painter has a major part to play, no spray but fully roll with good nap roller and 3 coats of quality paint. Cheers.


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## DSJOHN

A spray applied quality primer backrolled after level 5 finish beats a roller anyday in my book!!!!!!


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## 2buckcanuck

cazna said:


> Didnt even know there was an ignore list?
> 
> All i asked for was you to step up and reply with something helpful to back up your statements, A forum is hardly the place to be involved in and keep so called trade secerts to yourself when the purpose of a forum is to learn and help others, I didnt think that was to much to ask.


how did I miss one of you guys spats ????
good come back cazna, but did you see what mudstar said to you "I'm not one to speak for others and I know I'm not one to bash a fellow tradesmen." he's doing that sneaky Canadian talk,guess what he's saying your not???(now I'm doing it too).....I'm not married no more so I guess I miss the fights....and don't no one be offering me their wife either
--level 5 finish is about making the drywall one smooth surface/texture.your work/finishing is smoother than the surface you are applying it to(drywall)so this can or maybe cause flashing or uneven surface high lights.in laymen terms,your just skimming the area of drywall that has no mud on it.To make it a equal texture.
--in our neck of the woods ,if someone ask for a level 5 it's b/c they think your work sucks.
--there are times when it's needed.And I wont go into when in case a DIY is reading this.But lets just say the last time i did it i was a rookie
--fight back cazna(not me mudstar)
Canadian rugby is going to rule


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## proficient Mudder

Since I have been mainly doing Commercial work the last couple years I am required to give a level 5 on many jobs. I am almost always finishing stand up board and usually with alot of natural light coming through the windows to go with the challenge. It's just like 2buck said, a level 5 is to finish the remaining board that hasn't been slicked up yet to takeout any photographing/flashing that will seperate the rough board with the slicker finished areas. I always apply 3 good level coats on the joints and bead but do cheat the third coat on the screws before applying the level 5 skim. I usually roll skim out about 400 bdft before switching to a fresh bucket of mud.
I personally am just the Leadman for this company I work for ,so I am not sure what they charge for level 5.

if personally I was to bid a job with walls and ceilings going level 5 and the board is layed down. I would take my footage price per run and divide my hours into it to see what i average and than charge for the Level 5 run per hour by my average hourly rate plus Material.

Bill


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## cazna

2buckcanuck said:


> how did I miss one of you guys spats ????
> good come back cazna, but did you see what mudstar said to you "I'm not one to speak for others and I know I'm not one to bash a fellow tradesmen." he's doing that sneaky Canadian talk,guess what he's saying your not???(now I'm doing it too).....I'm not married no more so I guess I miss the fights....and don't no one be offering me their wife either
> --level 5 finish is about making the drywall one smooth surface/texture.your work/finishing is smoother than the surface you are applying it to(drywall)so this can or maybe cause flashing or uneven surface high lights.in laymen terms,your just skimming the area of drywall that has no mud on it.To make it a equal texture.
> --in our neck of the woods ,if someone ask for a level 5 it's b/c they think your work sucks.
> --there are times when it's needed.And I wont go into when in case a DIY is reading this.But lets just say the last time i did it i was a rookie
> --fight back cazna(not me mudstar)
> Canadian rugby is going to rule


 
Ha ha your such a stirrer 2buck, your funny, your prob the guy at the pub who stirs a few guys up for a fight then sit back and watches the action and takes there woman. Or trys anyway???


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## cazna

redgy85 said:


> Hi Digga, a level 5 starts at the frame stage, it must be good! then your sheet joints must run towards the light. Joints finished to a high standard then a full skim coat, spray follows the surface were as trowelling fills imperfections, the painter has a major part to play, no spray but fully roll with good nap roller and 3 coats of quality paint. Cheers.


 
And giddy redgy, sounds like you have some good things to say, welcome.


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## akabubjr

Instead of skimming the entire wall try a product called "first coat". I believe its made by USG. Its a primer that is thick like mug and will elliminate all the flashing you get from natural light. No sanding needed. Just my $.02


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## moore

d-rock said:


> .25-.75


your right. its a lot of work.


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## nz drywaller

*level 5*

my two cents on level5.
i level 4 dont need to sand then with rounded 14 in trowel skim with topping compound.sand then put light over job.comes up real nice


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## Capt-sheetrock

nz drywaller said:


> my two cents on level5.
> i level 4 dont need to sand then with rounded 14 in trowel skim with topping compound.sand then put light over job.comes up real nice


 Your missing the point of level5, its not a way to fix bad drywall, it is to bring the paper surface of the rock and the joints into ONE consistency to avoid flashing of joints in well lighted areas.


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## silverstilts

akabubjr said:


> Instead of skimming the entire wall try a product called "first coat". I believe its made by USG. Its a primer that is thick like mug and will elliminate all the flashing you get from natural light. No sanding needed. Just my $.02


 I think first coat is one of the worst you can use, it has way too much clay in it which eats up a tip real fast, and it is not a very suitable primer.


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## guijarrero

2buckcanuck said:


> some thread on here about level 5,use paint roller and trowel ,2 man system though, it's not that bad



it's not that bad:thumbsup:


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## guijarrero

akabubjr said:


> Instead of skimming the entire wall try a product called "first coat". I believe its made by USG. Its a primer that is thick like mug and will elliminate all the flashing you get from natural light. No sanding needed. Just my $.02


not level 5


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## guijarrero

redgy85 said:


> Hi Digga, a level 5 starts at the frame stage, it must be good!



agree!!

And in case you have the option of hanging I recomend to 'flat the butts', It works great and if you are frame-hang-finishing the time you 'lose' with the sistem is almost cero and you finish the short flats (past butts) with a 12" box. Do not see why you should add skim coat.. finish is FLAT. Really great:thumbsup:


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## fr8train

http://www.butthanger.com/rock_splicer.html
http://www.trim-tex.com/product_catalog.php?cat_display=showproduct&id=93
http://www.butthanger.com/ezbacker/ezbacker.html


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## guijarrero

yes indeed!! both options..


don't know the pricing, but building-place-made is non expensive and really fast with OSB (3/8 inch worked nice:thumbsup + 1/16 poster board strips + staple gun + circular saw


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## Stopper

Theres this STUFF


The stopping in this "how to" video looks pretty rat **** though, no wonder they need thick sealer


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## cazna

Stopper said:


> Theres this STUFF
> 
> 
> The stopping in this "how to" video looks pretty rat **** though, no wonder they need thick sealer


Not very nice stuff to use, The 3 in 1 is worse, Dont leave to too long or is a mission to sand, These have minimal effect, Yes cover the surface but wont fill much, Poor stopping and scratches or dents that got missed will still show through, Tends to leave very heavy roller marks which are very hard to sand out so shows through the next coats of paint. 2 nice coats of standard sealer will do the same thing, Or sprayed sealer loaded up is actually more even, easier to use and a nicer smoother finish.


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## Stopper

cazna said:


> Not very nice stuff to use, The 3 in 1 is worse, Dont leave to too long or is a mission to sand, These have minimal effect, Yes cover the surface but wont fill much, Poor stopping and scratches or dents that got missed will still show through, Tends to leave very heavy roller marks which are very hard to sand out so shows through the next coats of paint. 2 nice coats of standard sealer will do the same thing, Or sprayed sealer loaded up is actually more even, easier to use and a nicer smoother finish.


Yer I'm a great believer in a good coat of standard sealer too, I've used that Broadwall stuff before, did a small wall, went on ok, sanded ok so did the rest of the job and yer, bloody hard to sand and NOT what I'd call a level 5 finish, mind you I'm no painter.
As for the 3 in 1, was talking to a rep many years ago , he'd noticed I was using promix when most stoppers use the USG compounds, and he was saying that they'd had problems with the 3 in 1 when used over usg compounds but not Promix, guess it because of the amount of paint that goes on and the moisture it must dump into the board

But honestly, a level 4 painted properly does just fine under critical light, though I usually skim the light critical walls to be sure


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## Stopper

Oh boy....The painters painted the first half of a house I'm stopping, with 3 in 1 broadwall surfacer,sealer,finish coat ....all in one....

"Like tens coats of paint at once" the Rep said,
I said "Thats a lot of water you're dumping onto that drywall" 
he said " This paint has much less water and more solids than normal paint"
" But you're putting ten times as much on?" I said
"Drying agents" he said...

Me *???!??!?!?!*

Next day....board all swelled , but it wasn't a total loss, the screws were unaffected and didn't swell ( they're now recessed) :whistling2:


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## cazna

Interesting post stopper, Its one reason why im not so keen on those products, A skim of mud or a thinned out, rolled and skimmed coat of mud avoids all that, But how do you explain it to customers and painters.

But i guess even if painters then load it with to watered down sealer similer things may happen.


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## Stopper

cazna said:


> Interesting post stopper, Its one reason why im not so keen on those products, A skim of mud or a thinned out, rolled and skimmed coat of mud avoids all that, But how do you explain it to customers and painters.
> 
> But i guess even if painters then load it with to watered down sealer similer things may happen.


Well if you was due to, lets say, screws being drive in too far for instance, then you'd expect some random screws to be affected, but its EVERY screw...

The thing is....the screws are now more underfilled than they were before I even hit them with my first coat of mud lol....so I think I'm in the clear. 
Its a shame too because ,apart from the screws, the ceilings look great with that paint on them a its very matt.


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## cazna

Stopper said:


> Well if you was due to, lets say, screws being drive in too far for instance, then you'd expect some random screws to be affected, but its EVERY screw...
> 
> The thing is....the screws are now more underfilled than they were before I even hit them with my first coat of mud lol....so I think I'm in the clear.
> Its a shame too because ,apart from the screws, the ceilings look great with that paint on them a its very matt.


 
Im just wondering what mud you used on the screws and seams, Was it all purpose for all coats?? Some tradeset first??


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## Stopper

cazna said:


> Im just wondering what mud you used on the screws and seams, Was it all purpose for all coats?? Some tradeset first??



Tradest corking + screws, Gib Multi first and second coat joins and screws, Gib trade finish last...

But its not the compound..I could have filled the screws with mud from the garden and they would have been ok if painted normally.

All the walk in wardrobes were painted normally and they're fine, as was the laundry. 
The local Rep was back today he was checking alot of things for the Rep up north ,who was down earlier in the week showing the painters how to spray this stuff on , They were tossing all sort of theories back and forth on the phone, things like the tiber drying and pulling on the metal ceiling battens, moisture from the slab , thermal shock from the cold screws....the Rep from up north assured the local rep that the product was not to blame. And the reason for that, according to him, was that the 3 in1 paint was only about 20-30 % water as opposed to regular sealer that was the opposite, But as I kept pointing out to them, they were spraying the stuff on very thick, basically all the coats in 1 hit, sure the normal sealer has a higher water content but its applied thinner and can dry faster as the board can take up some of that moisture. But the 3 in 1 , although it has a much lower water content goes on ten times as thick, and take alot longer to dry also the board can't absorb all that extra moisture at once so in my opinion the face paper swells. face paper is afterall wood fibers.
Now each screw has a circular plug on top of setting compound and two more coats, theres nothing to swell up in that.

If it was down to maybe, screws being driven in too far then you'd expect them to pop and crack and you'd expect random screws to be affected , not 100% of screws . Only the screws buried under compound and tape in the joins were unaffected

Its not some dingy damp little house either, this is a brand new modern house with a huge amount of window space, if the suns out its warm inside.
I really think the rep is in denial , if you dump that much moisture on the board as once and things swell then you don't go looking for moisture coming of the concrete floor as the cause or try to blame it on compounds, the answer is right in fron of him, I mean, if you were to blame it on timber drying and pulling on battens and doing that enough, over night, to pull all the screws back in , ALL of them, then you'd have to wonder about why the tiber decided to suddenly shrink on the same day they painted the ceiling, because this house has been framed up and lined for a couple of months, if the timber was shrinking that fast there would be no timber left in the place because it would have shrank away to nothing.

Basically you can rull out movement because there are no cracks anywhere and a strong light shone across the ceiling shows NOTHING wrong with the joins

You can rule out shrinking compound over shrews because for one the compound was dried long before it was sanded and the job sat there for several weeks before being painted, also compound doesnt shrink when it gets wet its shrinks when it dries lol

The most obvious thing is swelling face paper , that would cause this exact effect....its occams razor isn't it? its hard to believe that all those boffins up north cant figure it out, they should know their product.

It annoys me that they state "there has NEVER EVER been any problems with this product." Well this stuffs been round years and it has cause problems , thats why they keep tweaking the product, I guess when they tweak it it becomes a new product with a clean history.

I do not like people spouting nonsense to me about stuff like this it really annoys me, (drying agents my ar se)....the problem is that they're working from the premise that their product isn't at fault. or rather their system of putting a ****load of paint on in one hit and expecting it to be ok.

Luckily I' not in the gun, So no stress here .


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## Kiwiman

Don't you just love the blame game Stopper? common sense goes out the window and blurred reality comes in.
That one coat stuff is a terrible idea anyway.


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## cazna

Im not a fan of those one coat level 5 products at all.

They is an airless machine guy who travels the country in a van, He sees what everyone is doing and why they are doing it.

Great guy to talk to about stuff, He said in queenstown one of his clients tried 3 in 1 in one room and normal sealer in another.

The 3 in 1 was hard to spray and you only get a small window of opportunity to sand it because after 20 hrs or so it goes very hard.

The normal sealer was easy to spray, easy to sand, and turned out just as good as 3 in 1 IF you load the sealer a little more.

I have sprayed and loaded normal sealer on many houses with no issue, But again I think rolling and troweling muds the only true way to get a level five as it takes care of everything.

There is a Gib conference in wellington coming up for the gib installers in march I think, The 3 in 1 reps come along and push there products, I might go, Will I sit there and say nothing or will I contradict them?? I will prob say nothing because im no arguer but it sure will be interesting.


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## Stopper

cazna said:


> Im not a fan of those one coat level 5 products at all.
> 
> They is an airless machine guy who travels the country in a van, He sees what everyone is doing and why they are doing it.
> 
> Great guy to talk to about stuff, He said in queenstown one of his clients tried 3 in 1 in one room and normal sealer in another.
> 
> The 3 in 1 was hard to spray and you only get a small window of opportunity to sand it because after 20 hrs or so it goes very hard.
> 
> The normal sealer was easy to spray, easy to sand, and turned out just as good as 3 in 1 IF you load the sealer a little more.
> 
> I have sprayed and loaded normal sealer on many houses with no issue, But again I think rolling and troweling muds the only true way to get a level five as it takes care of everything.
> 
> There is a Gib conference in wellington coming up for the gib installers in march I think, The 3 in 1 reps come along and push there products, I might go, Will I sit there and say nothing or will I contradict them?? I will prob say nothing because im no arguer but it sure will be interesting.


 I'm no arguer , well I don't see myself as one but infact I did argue lol
The painters here were saying the same thing as you, they can achieve the same thing with regular methods.

Heres what the issue was...









Its more hollow now than it was before I started stopping it up! lol and although it looks as though its a screw pop it isn't, theres no cracking round the screw etc, this happened overnight


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## cazna

Wow that's sunk bad, To see it in a photo like that is surprising, Sure looks like a pop.

I was doing all purpose on screws with spotters for a while but found they just kept sinking, Even after I painted I could see a little shrinking, so switched to a tradeset for the first coat at least. But I do first and second with tradeset now by hand, Then a DM 5.5 to finish, If its summer I will Tradeset first then 3 inch tapepro spotter all purpose the dm 5.5.

Our Northern hemisphere counterparts like to mix all purpose with some tradeset to help prevent shrinkage, Not something I have done much of and GIB wont recommend it but it prob works.

I have tryed using all purpose with zookas etc and all coats and found it a very dangerous thing to do and all the GIB guides state it but I had to find out for myself, After all, Most of the world is using air dry for all coats, Even freezing arse Canada, BUT, im in a humid damp area for most of the year and airdry will only ever dry to its surrounding conditions, They move in and warm the house up or along comes summer and it all shrinks.

I did a big place, all coats all purpose, Made sure it was dry, Then rolled and troweled mud twice over all the walls and sanded to make it as perfect as I could as the critical light was the worst I have ever seen.
It was perfect, The best work I have ever done, Yet in the hallway they fitted some wall lights that shine down the wall, And how did it look, Perfect, I was so proud, yet a week later you could see the seam slightly, Then a week later you could see it more, Then a month later OMG, There it was, a train track across the wall. You know all this and prob think im all bla bla bla, But from that lesson I took a step back, And with some lessons from our northern hemisphere buddys again about prefilling, Then switching to prefill and tape tradeset flats and tradeset screws and tradeset beads I have never had a problem again, And its actually faster. I still zook and airdry tape and top corners though after a dam good prefill.

Im just wondering if you would have used a thick stiff tradeset for first and second coat screws would they have sunk like that?? Or the paper raised up as you said but can paper raise that much??


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## Kiwiman

Tradefinish multi is a shocker for shrinkage, especially if it's watered down, maybe the thick 3 in 1 coat might have reactivated the multi and reshrunk it? Tradefinish lite is a heck of a lot better for 2nd and topcoat, it's only a topping compound but I've tried filling 30mm x 10mm deep holes to see what it does and there was none of the heavy shrinkage cracking like you would expect to see.


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## Stopper

Kiwiman said:


> Tradefinish multi is a shocker for shrinkage, especially if it's watered down, maybe the thick 3 in 1 coat might have reactivated the multi and reshrunk it? Tradefinish lite is a heck of a lot better for 2nd and topcoat, it's only a topping compound but I've tried filling 30mm x 10mm deep holes to see what it does and there was none of the heavy shrinkage cracking like you would expect to see.


 Trade finish multi doesnt shrink all that much , I use it for all three coats, even in winter, no problems.
Compound doesn't not "reactivate" and shrink more, thats exactly the sort of pseudo science the Rep was trying to come up with to defend his Painting system lol
. You shouldn't be building up trade finish too thick because its a topping compound, it doesnt have the same amount of glue in it that Multi has..it won't hold together or be as strong

Ad the thing is, the screws were filled with tradeset 90, a setting compound , when I was corking everything up, they didn't get recoated again till after I'd tape up all the joins, and they didn't get top coated till after i'd top coated my corners..Gib don't make compounds that reactivate and shrink when wet again, I don't know of any substance that does that.

The answer is very simple, large amounts of water have been applied to the face paper of the drywall, face paper that is made from wood fibers, wood fibers swell when wet, theres nothing unusual in that.

What you have to remember is that the area above the screw is more hollow than it was before I started filling it, it would be an amazing compound if it were able to not only shrink away to nothing upon being re-wet but also remove some of the top of the screw with it and not stain the paint.


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## Kiwiman

Stopper said:


> Trade finish multi doesnt shrink all that much , I use it for all three coats, even in winter, no problems.
> Compound doesn't not "reactivate" and shrink more, thats exactly the sort of pseudo science the Rep was trying to come up with to defend his Painting system lol
> . You shouldn't be building up trade finish too thick because its a topping compound, it doesnt have the same amount of glue in it that Multi has..it won't hold together or be as strong
> 
> Ad the thing is, the screws were filled with tradeset 90, a setting compound , when I was corking everything up, they didn't get recoated again till after I'd tape up all the joins, and they didn't get top coated till after i'd top coated my corners..Gib don't make compounds that reactivate and shrink when wet again, I don't know of any substance that does that.
> 
> The answer is very simple, large amounts of water have been applied to the face paper of the drywall, face paper that is made from wood fibers, wood fibers swell when wet, theres nothing unusual in that.
> 
> What you have to remember is that the area above the screw is more hollow than it was before I started filling it, it would be an amazing compound if it were able to not only shrink away to nothing upon being re-wet but also remove some of the top of the screw with it and not stain the paint.


:blink:........Ok I'll shut up then.


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## cazna

Its an interesting one for sure.

Whats the board?? Did you know gib has been doing repairs to there factory roof and had to close it down so they imported some board to keep up supply?? I think they got some austrailian board.

So if the water in the paint swelled the wood fibres in the paper around the screws then why didn't it do that along the seam and corner edges as well?? Its got me puzzled??

Gib compounds and all drywall compounds turn to mush when wet.

Hang on, Did they back roll the 3 in 1??


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## Kiwiman

cazna said:


> Its an interesting one for sure.
> 
> 
> Gib compounds and all drywall compounds turn to mush when wet.


Thats sort of what I mean by reactivate, get A/P wet and it will swell and shrink (slightly), does seem strange it's only affected the screws though.


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## JustMe

Had a commercial job once where the board seemed to swell after it was hit with primer and then it shrank back a bit, leaving high ridges around some screws that spot coating wouldn't take care of. We had to coat the area around the screws as well and feather them out.

Near as we could tell, the moisture from the newer concrete could have gotten into the board enough that it may have 'sensitized' it to wanting to swell, or swell again, once added moisture from the primer hit it.

Other jobs, too much moisture from heavy priming, in enclosed areas. Or moisture from propane being used inside for heat.

My last job I wrapped up, 2 days of rain and then primer set some screws back. I know that to be the case and it not being not enough mud on them, because I was testing a new screw spotter design and it left extra mud on top of the screws.


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## Stopper

cazna said:


> Its an interesting one for sure.
> 
> Whats the board?? Did you know gib has been doing repairs to there factory roof and had to close it down so they imported some board to keep up supply?? I think they got some austrailian board.
> 
> So if the water in the paint swelled the wood fibres in the paper around the screws then why didn't it do that along the seam and corner edges as well?? Its got me puzzled??
> 
> Gib compounds and all drywall compounds turn to mush when wet.
> 
> Hang on, Did they back roll the 3 in 1??


Theres a big difference between mush and damp though lol
And the reason the screw has show up and not the joins is because the compound over the screw is very thin, and you go suddenly from screw head to face paper, theres a sudden change, where as with a join you go from face paper buried deep in a join that slowly feathers out over a wide area , so the swelling wouldn't be as sudden.

The thing is, the paper has swelled, the screws have not moved, they weren't under filled, and tradeset 90 does not turn to mush because it gets a little wet from paint. And even if they did get wet from the paint, isn't that the whole reason why theres a problem? too much moisture hitting the board and being held their by a great thickness of paint.

If as Kiwiman says the compound has reactivated, well I'd have to ask what does it then do? how do you end up with less covering the screw head?, it cannot migrate away. Compound that has dried doesn't re shrink again on being wet.
If lets say the compound swelled over the screw upon being wet and the paper did not(which is a big stretch) then you'd have seen that happening, as the ceilings were so wet looking when painted they look like full gloss enamel and swelling screws would have stuck out a mile.
And then you'd also expect the joins to swell, as they're filled with mostly air dried compound.

The face paper being affected is the ONLY theory that makes sense, and thats between the paper and the paint, I'm just a spectator. 

Stay clear of 3 in 1 paint....


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## cazna

I wonder what sort of screws they used?? For a while here those dam screws that were not smooth counter sunk started showing up and every screw was torn paper, Took me a while to figure out the local hardware store had them in stock instead of normal drywall screws that keep paper under the counter sunk and doest tear it. I gave them a demo on what they were doing to the board and told them to get rid of them, They did.

Dulux have a plasterboard surfacer like the resene 3 in 1, Like a said, Normal sealer sprayed cross hatched style loaded will achieve the same result, Ive loaded all hell with it before and its never done that to the screws, Ive never used 3 in 1, And wont, Sheetrock make one as well, Tuffhide, I wonder how that compares to 3 in 1.

So now what are you going to do?? Sand it, Light check and re spot it all??


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## Stopper

cazna said:


> I wonder what sort of screws they used?? For a while here those dam screws that were not smooth counter sunk started showing up and every screw was torn paper, Took me a while to figure out the local hardware store had them in stock instead of normal drywall screws that keep paper under the counter sunk and doest tear it. I gave them a demo on what they were doing to the board and told them to get rid of them, They did.
> 
> Dulux have a plasterboard surfacer like the resene 3 in 1, Like a said, Normal sealer sprayed cross hatched style loaded will achieve the same result, Ive loaded all hell with it before and its never done that to the screws, Ive never used 3 in 1, And wont, Sheetrock make one as well, Tuffhide, I wonder how that compares to 3 in 1.
> 
> So now what are you going to do?? Sand it, Light check and re spot it all??


The screws were fine, I know what you mean about the wrong screws though. occasionally you get people using square heads and they tear the **** out of the face paper and are a real pain to stop up.

I'm not doing anything about the screws lol, the painter thinks the best way to fix it is use the thick 3 in 1 paint itself to fill/touch up , then sand and re spray, that way the touch up is the same material and porosity etc...he may need a couple of coats to touch up though because it will most probably shrink. I'ts a shame too cause the ceilings look great apart from that issue...bit of a hassle for them though.


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## cazna

Stopper said:


> The screws were fine, I know what you mean about the wrong screws though. occasionally you get people using square heads and they tear the **** out of the face paper and are a real pain to stop up.
> 
> I'm not doing anything about the screws lol, the painter thinks the best way to fix it is use the thick 3 in 1 paint itself to fill/touch up , then sand and re spray, that way the touch up is the same material and porosity etc...he may need a couple of coats to touch up though because it will most probably shrink. I'ts a shame too cause the ceilings look great apart from that issue...bit of a hassle for them though.


Oh well, at least you don't have to go back then, Touch up like that with 3 in 1 :blink: man, It must be crazy thick stuff??


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## Stopper

cazna said:


> Oh well, at least you don't have to go back then, Touch up like that with 3 in 1 :blink: man, It must be crazy thick stuff??


Apparently....but its still wet as ...you please...despite what the rep says

Hmmmm their data sheet on it makes for interesting reading..
_____________________________________
Dry time (minimum) 4 hours
Recoat time (minimum) 4 hours

"As a sealer: 1 coat at 7 sq. metres per litre 
As a ceiling finish: 1 coat at 7 sq. metres per litre, 
allow to dry 1-2 hours then apply a second coat at 5 sq. metres per litre 

_____________________________________

Yep these clowns know their product alright, been tweaking it for years


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## Kiwiman

Stopper said:


> Theres a big difference between mush and damp though lol
> And the reason the screw has show up and not the joins is because the compound over the screw is very thin, and you go suddenly from screw head to face paper, theres a sudden change, where as with a join you go from face paper buried deep in a join that slowly feathers out over a wide area , so the swelling wouldn't be as sudden.
> 
> The thing is, the paper has swelled, the screws have not moved, they weren't under filled, and tradeset 90 does not turn to mush because it gets a little wet from paint. And even if they did get wet from the paint, isn't that the whole reason why theres a problem? too much moisture hitting the board and being held their by a great thickness of paint.
> 
> If as Kiwiman says the compound has reactivated, well I'd have to ask what does it then do? how do you end up with less covering the screw head?, it cannot migrate away. Compound that has dried doesn't re shrink again on being wet.
> If lets say the compound swelled over the screw upon being wet and the paper did not(which is a big stretch) then you'd have seen that happening, as the ceilings were so wet looking when painted they look like full gloss enamel and swelling screws would have stuck out a mile.
> And then you'd also expect the joins to swell, as they're filled with mostly air dried compound.
> 
> The face paper being affected is the ONLY theory that makes sense, and thats between the paper and the paint, I'm just a spectator.
> 
> Stay clear of 3 in 1 paint....


What you really need to do to prove your point to them is cut a hole in the board and use an engineers micrometer to measure board thickness and compare it to the thickness of an offcut (from the same job if possible). Cutting a test hole won't be a problem if it's going to be repaired anyway.


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## Stopper

Kiwiman said:


> What you really need to do to prove your point to them is cut a hole in the board and use an engineers micrometer to measure board thickness and compare it to the thickness of an offcut (from the same job if possible). Cutting a test hole won't be a problem if it's going to be repaired anyway.


They've touched it up now...they're going to roll it. 

I think I got it worked out in my head now whats going on, of the ceilings painted by the 3 in 1, they all had problems except the long hallway, which has a pretty good through draft through it, so I think it dried out much faster where as the rooms were closed up more and the moisture could not get out quickly enough. 
The Rep told me that they're building little test rooms to try and figure it out but to me what it is is a product limitation that they've exceeded. Its not like its the first time its happened, they should have enough data to work it out, theres another job down here affected in the same way as well...
The Rep was down here noting down all the different compounds I use again last week...and I know they're just taking into account all the variables but really they're looking too far afield for the problem, they might as well be asking me what I had for breakfast that day


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## cazna

So a sunny day, Open windows and big fans should be on the paint labels.


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## moore

Stopper said:


> They've touched it up now...they're going to roll it.
> 
> I think I got it worked out in my head now whats going on, of the ceilings painted by the 3 in 1, they all had problems except the long hallway, which has a pretty good through draft through it, so I think it dried out much faster where as the rooms were closed up more and the moisture could not get out quickly enough.
> The Rep told me that they're building little test rooms to try and figure it out but to me what it is is a product limitation that they've exceeded. Its not like its the first time its happened, they should have enough data to work it out, theres another job down here affected in the same way as well...
> The Rep was down here noting down all the different compounds I use again last week...and I know they're just taking into account all the variables but really they're looking too far afield for the problem, they might as well be asking me what I had for breakfast that day


excess moisture ? was that the bottom line stopper?


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## Buck Valley Drywall

Mudstar said:


> level 5 done with drywall compound is not practical this days or is the best way to achieve true smooth wall finish. There is products out there that do the job with out having to skim out entire areas with drywall compounds. Price the same as priming plus the cost of leveler and you won't go wrong.


 We always use surfacer


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## boco

Buck Valley Drywall said:


> We always use surfacer


 What do you use? How much do it cover? and how much does it cost?


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## thefinisher

boco said:


> What do you use? How much do it cover? and how much does it cost?


Boco, get you some spray-plast man!


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## dieselman350

Just spray mud on the walls with an airless and bankroll with a light nap roller then a light brush sand and your done its that easy


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## dieselman350

Backroll


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