# Is automatic tool really the best ?



## Mudderpro (Mar 14, 2013)

Hello dwt member ! I am in the business for 9 years now and i try every method , and i'm still not sure if auto tools is the answer : 1. The cost and replacement parts 2. Clean them after every coat 3. The learning curve 4. Angle head some time do not fill perfectly the bevel ( show trace on the paint ) 5. Its not the same result (smooth finish by hand versus aut tools 6. They are heavy on shoulder 7. Hard to use in small place 8. Screws are harder to sand with nailspotter. 9. Bazooka is a pain in the ... To use when the rock is not perfctly done I really think they are great tools but i also think that hawk and trowel are not far behind auto tools . I use slop bucket ( sh*t box) Corner roller (tapetech) Flush with 3 inch angle heat ( bone head ) And after its all hawk/trowel , flat is fast , skim angle , and small sanding in the end . Maybe auto tools is an hour faster in total but i save the cleaning , buying extra parts , and no worry, no one will stole my trowel !


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Sh1t box user,,,, another Canuck ,joins the site:whistling2:


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## Deezal (Mar 9, 2013)

I like ****box.... For fire tapeing and that's about it.


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## Newagestucco (Apr 18, 2012)

Mudderpro said:


> Hello dwt member ! I am in the business for 9 years now and i try every method , and i'm still not sure if auto tools is the answer : 1. The cost and replacement parts 2. Clean them after every coat 3. The learning curve 4. Angle head some time do not fill perfectly the bevel ( show trace on the paint ) 5. Its not the same result (smooth finish by hand versus aut tools 6. They are heavy on shoulder 7. Hard to use in small place 8. Screws are harder to sand with nailspotter. 9. Bazooka is a pain in the ... To use when the rock is not perfctly done I really think they are great tools but i also think that hawk and trowel are not far behind auto tools . I use slop bucket ( sh*t box) Corner roller (tapetech) Flush with 3 inch angle heat ( bone head ) And after its all hawk/trowel , flat is fast , skim angle , and small sanding in the end . Maybe auto tools is an hour faster in total but i save the cleaning , buying extra parts , and no worry, no one will stole my trowel !


 
maybe auto tools are not for you

everyone has their own systems to keep them employed
personaly i use a combanation of both


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

The truth is, if you compare a well rounded machine crew against a well rounded hand finishing crew the machine crew will always be done faster :yes:. And if you know how to run a box properly then the finish will be just as good as hand finishing. In my opinion though, the angles turn out better hand finished then with an angle head. Around here, our finishing crews use banjo's to tape (sometimes a bazooka depending on crew) then they all use boxes to do the flats and load the butts. On the butts they go back over them once they have set up a bit to work them by hand. They also go back over flats when they run the screws (by hand) and hit the lap marks or any pin holes etc... Angles are run one side at a time also. Even doing it this way our crews would run circles around hand finishing.


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## DrywallerDustin (Mar 1, 2013)

Mudderpro said:


> Hello dwt member ! I am in the business for 9 years now and i try every method , and i'm still not sure if auto tools is the answer : 1. The cost and replacement parts 2. Clean them after every coat 3. The learning curve 4. Angle head some time do not fill perfectly the bevel ( show trace on the paint ) 5. Its not the same result (smooth finish by hand versus aut tools 6. They are heavy on shoulder 7. Hard to use in small place 8. Screws are harder to sand with nailspotter. 9. Bazooka is a pain in the ... To use when the rock is not perfctly done I really think they are great tools but i also think that hawk and trowel are not far behind auto tools . I use slop bucket ( sh*t box) Corner roller (tapetech) Flush with 3 inch angle heat ( bone head ) And after its all hawk/trowel , flat is fast , skim angle , and small sanding in the end . Maybe auto tools is an hour faster in total but i save the cleaning , buying extra parts , and no worry, no one will stole my trowel !


This is a joke, right?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Clean what?:blink: Buy a bucket ...fill it with water!


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## DrywallerDustin (Mar 1, 2013)

Okay, I'll bite, what the hell is a ****box?


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## drywall guy158 (Dec 31, 2009)

just started useing boxes on all my flats but still do the corners by hand......my .02 .....theres no way doing it all by hand is faster, i'm still in the learing curve and even @ that it's much faster. auto tools will pay for them self real quick.

any of you guys rent from ames ????


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

DrywallerDustin said:


> Okay, I'll bite, what the hell is a ****box?


Slop box. Super taper.


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

DrywallerDustin said:


> Okay, I'll bite, what the hell is a ****box?


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okQ_7SSUWHU


Use mesh and eliminate that step. Wouldn't that be easier?


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> Use mesh and eliminate that step. Wouldn't that be easier?


 
I'll just pretend you didn't say that....


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## DrywallerDustin (Mar 1, 2013)

Some of you actually tape that way?! I wouldn't be able to do that, just imagining the time I would spend makes me cringe.


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

DrywallerDustin said:


> Some of you actually tape that way?! I wouldn't be able to do that, just imagining the time I would spend makes me cringe.


I've tried taping every way known to man!
Just because I like to know what everyone's talking about and see their points of view.
I don't tape like that. But I thought it would be an informational video for some.
And actually, there are a few guys on here who do tape that way.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

DrywallerDustin said:


> Okay, I'll bite, what the hell is a ****box?




We sometimes use another name for it other than slop box. 

:blink:

But wholly sh*t, surprised you dont know what a sh*t box is. 
Maybe it is a Canadian thing eh?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> Use mesh and eliminate that step. Wouldn't that be easier?


 And you were just growing on me ...:blink: I thought we were buddies!


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

DrywallerDustin said:


> Some of you actually tape that way?! I wouldn't be able to do that, just imagining the time I would spend makes me cringe.


Nothing wrong with having one of those supertapers kicking around for firetaping jobs where all you need to take to the site is a mixer and the supertaper. Wouldn't want to do use them all the time but they have their place. 

I believe they are a Canadian made product, so we see them more up here.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mudderpro said:


> Hello dwt member ! I am in the business for 9 years now and i try every method , and i'm still not sure if auto tools is the answer : 1. The cost and replacement parts 2. Clean them after every coat 3. The learning curve 4. Angle head some time do not fill perfectly the bevel ( show trace on the paint ) 5. Its not the same result (smooth finish by hand versus aut tools 6. They are heavy on shoulder 7. Hard to use in small place 8. Screws are harder to sand with nailspotter. 9. Bazooka is a pain in the ... To use when the rock is not perfctly done I really think they are great tools but i also think that hawk and trowel are not far behind auto tools . I use slop bucket ( sh*t box) Corner roller (tapetech) Flush with 3 inch angle heat ( bone head ) And after its all hawk/trowel , flat is fast , skim angle , and small sanding in the end . Maybe auto tools is an hour faster in total but i save the cleaning , buying extra parts , and no worry, no one will stole my trowel !


 http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/boxes-waste-time-3074/


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> Use mesh and eliminate that step. Wouldn't that be easier?


Maybe you should change your name to Mr. Notverybrightstar if you are suggesting mesh is easier.

 :bangin:


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

moore said:


> And you were just growing on me ...:blink: I thought we were buddies!


I don't get why mesh is such an issue. Reminds me of the plasterers that won't touch drywall.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> I don't get why mesh is such an issue. Reminds me of the plasterers that won't touch drywall.


 What plasterers???? We ran them out of town 60 years ago!


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> I don't get why mesh is such an issue. Reminds me of the plasterers that won't touch drywall.


Do a few searches on the forum under mesh and see what others think. It becomes almost a waste of time to discuss mesh tape.


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

moore said:


> What plasterers???? We ran them out of town 60 years ago!


No the mesh! Plasterers there still around.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> No the mesh! Plasterers there still around.


More mesh the better [for me] .Your still young ,but you will see the light one day!


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mudderpro said:


> Hello dwt member ! I am in the business for 9 years now and i try every method , and i'm still not sure if auto tools is the answer : 1. The cost and replacement parts 2. Clean them after every coat 3. The learning curve 4. Angle head some time do not fill perfectly the bevel ( show trace on the paint ) 5. Its not the same result (smooth finish by hand versus aut tools 6. They are heavy on shoulder 7. Hard to use in small place 8. Screws are harder to sand with nailspotter. 9. Bazooka is a pain in the ... To use when the rock is not perfctly done I really think they are great tools but i also think that hawk and trowel are not far behind auto tools . I use slop bucket ( sh*t box) Corner roller (tapetech) Flush with 3 inch angle heat ( bone head ) And after its all hawk/trowel , flat is fast , skim angle , and small sanding in the end . Maybe auto tools is an hour faster in total but i save the cleaning , buying extra parts , and no worry, no one will stole my trowel !


You stand alone in a field of sheep:yes::yes::whistling2:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> You stand alone in a field of sheep:yes::yes::whistling2:


It's not that bad!


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> No the mesh! Plasterers there still around.


I don't see why people think plaster is so great.

Doing a reno on a older house right now where there is plaster on some of the sunshine walls. I told 2buckjr to look down one of them well Gods evil little flash light was shining down one. He was like this:blink::blink:

I just don't think the stuff can pass today's internet educated consumer market. It dips and dives and hollows and waves and looks like dam sheep dung floating in a ocean of waves:yes:

People always talk like they want your tape job to look like plaster. But I think if you could force people to look at a taped wall and plaster wall with a halogen light shining down them. (say a hallway with each system on each side) They would make the same face 2buckjr did today when seeing the plaster:blink:

They think plaster is as smooth as glass......... actually, shine a halogen across a large window, that will shock them too:whistling2:


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> I don't see why people think plaster is so great.
> 
> Doing a reno on a older house right now where there is plaster on some of the sunshine walls. I told 2buckjr to look down one of them well Gods evil little flash light was shining down one. He was like this:blink::blink:
> 
> ...


There are bad plastering jobs just as bad Drywall Jobs. Wavy walls we call them alligator walls. 

Drywall is a huge cost saver on new install. Plaster lath & cement is code in high rises, prisons schools hospitals Parking structures ect. 

Blueboard Skim Coating Is done to give a Plasterer wake finish Smooth and seamless. And you can tell the difference even after the walls been painted. 

Ornamental work is a treat to do but there's not that much out there. Usually restoring historic site. 

I think Skim Coating meshes the two together For an affordable Wow factor.


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> ........ actually, shine a halogen across a large window, that will shock them too:whistling2:



I have used that same line with builders that want perfection but wont pay for it.


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## icerock drywall (Nov 13, 2010)

Mudderpro said:


> Hello dwt member ! I am in the business for 9 years now and i try every method , and i'm still not sure if auto tools is the answer : 1. The cost and replacement parts 2. Clean them after every coat 3. The learning curve 4. Angle head some time do not fill perfectly the bevel ( show trace on the paint ) 5. Its not the same result (smooth finish by hand versus aut tools 6. They are heavy on shoulder 7. Hard to use in small place 8. Screws are harder to sand with nailspotter. 9. Bazooka is a pain in the ... To use when the rock is not perfctly done I really think they are great tools but i also think that hawk and trowel are not far behind auto tools . I use slop bucket ( sh*t box) Corner roller (tapetech) Flush with 3 inch angle heat ( bone head ) And after its all hawk/trowel , flat is fast , skim angle , and small sanding in the end . Maybe auto tools is an hour faster in total but i save the cleaning , buying extra parts , and no worry, no one will stole my trowel !


 
I just did a 80 sheet job with 8 window with beed in one day the hangers were done @ 11:00 and I was home @ 6 ...3 coats in one day I used a 3'' 10'' box with some corner flushersand a hawk with a 6" and 12" knife .beed was done with trowel ...I used fibafuse mesh on butts with fibafuse ez sand 45 and AP mud and mesh beed and one roll of rosey paper and my tool I cant need the most my work sink :whistling2: autotools rock so glad I changed:yes:


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## rhardman (Jul 7, 2009)

Yea, every tool has it's place. I've watched Canadians with their cardboard box taped to the belt and they made pretty good time. I've used H&T myself for remodels with plaster and hot mud. _Nothing is better for metal._

But for production work, in the hands of an expert, open rock walls, you're not going to keep up with automatic tools. They will leave you in the dust.

They're not perfect, but still, they are very good.


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## Mudderpro (Mar 14, 2013)

Its funny how you guys protect aut tools .... Why ? Your affraid that they will not send you tshirt or promo stuff ?? 

Nailspotter is no good too much sanding 
Angle head leave marks 
Most of the time flat are not leveld 

And NO , quality is not the same by hand vs auto tools


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## Newagestucco (Apr 18, 2012)

Mudderpro said:


> Its funny how you guys protect aut tools .... Why ? Your affraid that they will not send you tshirt or promo stuff ??
> 
> Nailspotter is no good too much sanding
> Angle head leave marks
> ...


 
Been taping for 30 years dont need a t shirt or promo crap


I need footage sq ft auto tools work real good 

let me guess 
when you put the tape on by hand its beter qwality then a zooking it
its the same its mud/tape not rocket science 
machine might even put it on more even if you no how to run them

corners by auto tools i find they look more square and sharp
less sanding 

and i due skim everything by hand 
combanation of both works well for me


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## Mudderpro (Mar 14, 2013)

Newagestucco said:


> Been taping for 30 years dont need a t shirt or promo crap
> 
> I need footage sq ft auto tools work real good
> 
> ...


You just confirm my point : you do not trust 100% the auto tools , you still skim everything by hand .


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

This thread is just simply ridiculous....


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## Newagestucco (Apr 18, 2012)

Mudderpro said:


> You just confirm my point : you do not trust 100% the auto tools , you still skim everything by hand .


 

well lets see we tape by zook
we finish the corners by auto
some times we run the boxes depends on the homes
skim everthing by hand usualy the house are
chop up alot of angles 

yes i due trust auto tools 100 % of the tools that i used

i dont care how you do it 
by you saying they dont work 

just tells me you dont no how to run them properly
its not for everyone 
dont no about you by i can still run out 10thousand sqft of tape
with a zook in 5 /6hrs use to due 18000 in 8 hrs with wipers 
so pls dont try and convice me that auto tools dont work


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## MarshalltownCoMkt (Sep 24, 2012)

Marshalltown likes the hawk and trowel, taping knife and mud pan, as well as auto tools. We think all drywall tools are great :thumbsup:


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## saskataper (Mar 6, 2011)

I think the manufacturers on this site should sponsor a competition, machine tapers vs. hand. Each camp would nominate their best to be sent to TrimTex where they would be judged by the sponsors or possibly just Noe from trimtex on speed and finish. You could also add material used but that only really makes a difference over the big jobs.


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## saskataper (Mar 6, 2011)

While we're at it why not just settle everything once and for all. Trowel vs knife, angle box vs tube and flusher vs mud runner vs corner spoon, merino vs women and so on till every thing is settled and we can close all the posts except the cussing, music video, and funny video threads.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

MarshalltownCoMkt said:


> Marshalltown likes the hawk and trowel, taping knife and mud pan, as well as auto tools. We think all drywall tools are great :thumbsup:


So does cazna, Its all good, YOU just have to work it all out.


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## DrywallerDustin (Mar 1, 2013)

Mudderpro said:


> Its funny how you guys protect aut tools .... Why ? Your affraid that they will not send you tshirt or promo stuff ??
> 
> Nailspotter is no good too much sanding
> Angle head leave marks
> ...


I agree with this last statement completely, it's not the same, auto tools produce a superior finish in the hands of a skilled, journeyman finisher


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

DrywallerDustin said:


> I agree with this last statement completely, it's not the same, auto tools produce a superior finish in the hands of a skilled, journeyman finisher


The box looks fast and I'm sure it it leaves a very smooth finish. But On a basecoat you need hand and Eye skilled coordination to fill and float some of these wicked butt joints. Then top with the box and everything's okay.


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## icerock drywall (Nov 13, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> This thread is just simply ridiculous....


where is the like button :drink:


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## drywall guy158 (Dec 31, 2009)

:drink: i'll have one with ya !!! icerock


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> The box looks fast and I'm sure it it leaves a very smooth finish. But On a basecoat you need hand and Eye skilled coordination to fill and float some of these wicked butt joints. Then top with the box and everything's okay.


My hands hold the box and my eyes show it where to go....


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

PrecisionTaping said:


> My hands hold the box and my eyes show it where to go....


How well does it fill and float the a Areas that demand heavy fill? Really I don't know.


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> How well does it fill and float the a Areas that demand heavy fill? Really I don't know.


 
Here's a basic video I made. Should give you an idea of how fast and smooth boxes can perform.
Fyi, I was taking my time for the sake of the video.
You can run with the boxes and achieve the same results.




 
As far as areas that require heavier fills, that's why there's a tension adjustment on the back which can guauge how little or how much mud is applied.
If they didn't work, they wouldn't sell them.
And half the guys on this site wouldn't be using them.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Another great clip by PT

One thing ive been meaning to ask you, You double run the box one coat after the next, I think 2buck put you onto that........BUT, I think 2buck ment he runs all the seams once in the house, then goes back for another pass.....Why?? Becouse the mud shrinks back a little after ten minutes or so, Then coat again, This way you avoid the 7 box and get a better build up with less shrinkage and deal with poks etc.

You started to double run but do it one coat after the next so you loose this benifit?? I think you may have missed bucks point??

Buck and PT, Tell me rack off if im wrong, I have been meaning to ask this for a while now :yes:


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Here's a basic video I made. Should give you an idea of how fast and smooth boxes can perform.
> Fyi, I was taking my time for the sake of the video.
> You can run with the boxes and achieve the same results.
> Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5pvaBFH4ow
> ...


One of the hardest things to do is make something thats hard to do look so easy. Great video! I'm sold on the box now. 

I noticed your drywall knife had no rust on it


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> One of the hardest things to do is make something thats hard to do look so easy. Great video! I'm sold on the box now.
> 
> I noticed your drywall knife had no rust on it


Boxes are great, But do take some getting use to, Yes thats a great clip from PT, But i think it looks over crowned, Could be wrong, But im just saying boxes can over crown easy, You think its good, But paint it, Then the light catches it the wrong way and boom, Great big crowned seam. I had some shoulders on my last job, So in the living area i did a moore and hand coated to finish, 14inch trowel................The 12 box opened up to cover the shoulders would just be a crown...............Is hand better than machines??..........Sometimes yes, But you need to learn both to know :thumbsup:


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## icerock drywall (Nov 13, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Here's a basic video I made. Should give you an idea of how fast and smooth boxes can perform.
> Fyi, I was taking my time for the sake of the video.
> You can run with the boxes and achieve the same results.
> How to run a flat box. 10" Columbia. - YouTube
> ...


do you have a mouse under your hat helping you !!! your rocken the fatboy


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## icerock drywall (Nov 13, 2010)

cazna said:


> Boxes are great, But do take some getting use to, Yes thats a great clip from PT, But i think it looks over crowned, Could be wrong, But im just saying boxes can over crown easy, You think its good, But paint it, Then the light catches it the wrong way and boom, Great big crowned seam. I had some shoulders on my last job, So in the living area i did a moore and hand coated to finish, 14inch trowel................The 12 box opened up to cover the shoulders would just be a crown...............Is hand better than machines??..........Sometimes yes, But you need to learn both to know :thumbsup:


 
this is my like button now :drink:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

cazna said:


> Another great clip by PT
> 
> One thing ive been meaning to ask you, You double run the box one coat after the next, I think 2buck put you onto that........BUT, I think 2buck ment he runs all the seams once in the house, then goes back for another pass.....Why?? Becouse the mud shrinks back a little after ten minutes or so, Then coat again, This way you avoid the 7 box and get a better build up with less shrinkage and deal with poks etc.
> 
> ...


Yes and No Caz.
2buck did put me onto the idea of tracing, or chasing.
The only reason I do it is to eliminate having to backblade with a knife. I used to have one guy on a box and one guy lightly going over it with a blade to help eliminate pits or pocks.
But running the box twice does the same thing.

2buck's method I think was more to help with high shoulders.
So you would run the box really quickly throughout the whole house, not really worry about the quality, then by the time you finished, you would go back to where you started and as the mud started to dry and shrink back a bit, the high shoulders from bad drywall would start to expose themselves a bit. That way, you could re-run your box a second time and could compensate for the high shoulders. Instead of running your box right down the middle of the seam, if you can now see an exposed high shoulder on the right hand side, you can run your box a little more down the left hand side of it to ride it out. 
I think that was more or less 2buck's method. It also eliminates pocks and helps with shrinking a bit.
But so does my method of passing the box a second time right away.
My seconds pass, I don't even think there's any mud being applied.
It's almost just like running a knife over the seems immediately after putting the mud on.
Works for me anyways.
2buck will probably correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that was his reasoning. Both methods do work.
But I think his method for letting it setup a little longer was to expose high shoulders.



Mr.Brightstar said:


> One of the hardest things to do is make something thats hard to do look so easy. Great video! I'm sold on the box now.
> 
> I noticed your drywall knife had no rust on it


lol! We try to make it all look easy.
And yup! That's a Kraft knife!
One piece stainless steel.



cazna said:


> Boxes are great, But do take some getting use to, Yes thats a great clip from PT, But i think it looks over crowned, Could be wrong, But im just saying boxes can over crown easy, You think its good, But paint it, Then the light catches it the wrong way and boom, Great big crowned seam. I had some shoulders on my last job, So in the living area i did a moore and hand coated to finish, 14inch trowel................The 12 box opened up to cover the shoulders would just be a crown...............Is hand better than machines??..........Sometimes yes, But you need to learn both to know :thumbsup:


You're right, boxes can over crown very easily.
I like to run my 10" a little heavier, it shrinks back a bit as it dries, and then I run my 12" tight tight.
I use a pretty lightweight mud as well so it shrinks back quite a bit.
Easy to sand as well.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> People always talk like they want your tape job to look like plaster. But I think if you could force people to look at a taped wall and plaster wall with a halogen light shining down them. (say a hallway with each system on each side) They would make the same face 2buckjr did today when seeing the plaster:blink:


That (sort of) happened at a university where I was helping another guy do a Diamond Veneer test room for them, to see if they might find it cost effective enough. GC's job runner was saying one of the architects shone his light down some of the 1st walls done and complained, saying he wanted it looking like the existing plastered areas. So job runner had him shine his light down some of those. No more complaints. 

What is with the Facebook, Twitter, ...... logo garbage popping up where I'm typing.


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

JustMe said:


> That (sort of) happened at a university where I was helping another guy do a Diamond Veneer test room for them, to see if they might find it cost effective enough. GC's job runner was saying one of the architects shone his light down some of the 1st walls done and complained, saying he wanted it looking like the existing plastered areas. So job runner had him shine his light down some of those. No more complaints.
> 
> What is with the Facebook, Twitter, ...... logo garbage popping up where I'm typing.


I don't know but ever since Nathan's left, I've been having a hard time with DWT...
Anytime I try giving "Thanks" to someone it gives me a hard time, takes me to another page and says I don't have access to do that, and blah blah...and when I click on new posts, they don't always pop up..
I'm just noticing small inconsistancies..


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

For example!!!







It says below "The following 2 users say Thank You to PrecisionTaping for this useful post:"
But then only shows 1 of the 2.
Well now I'm just curious!!
Who the hell was the 2nd person!?!?
See!? Inconsistancies...


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Yes and No Caz.
> 2buck did put me onto the idea of tracing, or chasing.
> The only reason I do it is to eliminate having to backblade with a knife. I used to have one guy on a box and one guy lightly going over it with a blade to help eliminate pits or pocks.
> But running the box twice does the same thing.
> ...


I feel tears forming in my eyes







, your the first person who stated it all right









But to add to it a tiny bit, I wait till you see the mud shrink back just a bit, when you see the flat tape begin to expose through. (begin to see edges of tape) maybe I'm wrong, but I THINK on flats the mud does around 75% of it's shrinking in the first 20 minutes when it is applied. (depends on weather and environment).

Then one little side note,,, I always run the ceilings first, and then last, since most of our ceilings are knock down. Then there is no need to run the 12" on them....

Which leads me to another point. A proper bed coat means you now only half to skim it tight, which is what your 12" box should be doing, skimming not coating. I see a lot of guys coat /load with the 12", instead of running it tight, it's a sanding coat.(Although topping muds could change these principles, but I hate mixing up coating muds, I just stick to AP muds)

I half to go get a Kleenex now, Moose boy made me cry







:jester:


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## harvv (Jul 21, 2012)

JustMe said:


> What is with the Facebook, Twitter, ...... logo garbage popping up where I'm typing.


Suggest getting adblock plus for whatever browser you are using.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> The box looks fast and I'm sure it it leaves a very smooth finish. But On a basecoat you need hand and Eye skilled coordination to fill and float some of these wicked butt joints. Then top with the box and everything's okay.


Boxes run TRUE:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Meaning, if something is hollow, it will ex-spell more mud, if something sits high, it will apply less mud. It's a MACHINE, it runs true, it will show you what is level, and what is not. They will not ripple or wave, hump or dive, they run TRUE. You set them to a # between 0 and 5, that will control the depth of the mud you put on.

Boxes run true, it is the one main machine that all tapers will agree upon (except idiots:furious that it's a production machine.

And as one taper said to me one day, think about how productive a 12" box is, compared to skimming by hand, it becomes a game of minutes vs hours:yes:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> minutes vs hours:yes:


Minutes vs hours.
That's what this thread should be called! :yes:
I mean really?!
"Is automatic tool really the best?"
That's not even proper english....
No wonder you're not convinced about auto-tools.
Are automatic tools really the best?
Yes! Yes they are!
However, with that being said, you still need to know how to properly use a hawk and trowel, or pan and knife.
You can't rely solely on machines.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> And as one taper said to me one day, think about how productive a 12" box is, compared to skimming by hand, it becomes a game of minutes vs hours:yes:


The speed of (good) boxing also transfers over into speeding up sanding and checkout. Less sanding, less checkout, with good boxing.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Minutes vs hours.
> That's what this thread should be called! :yes:
> I mean really?!
> "Is automatic tool really the best?"
> ...


The more I read this guys post, I think I know what his problem is:yes:

He comes on this site saying he is a hand taper, yet he knows all about running tools. Hell he even says he owns some machines, yet he likes to identify him self as a hand taper. He knows this site has all types of machine tapers on it, yet he wants to be part of the community, but seperate from it. He knows he needs our help, but won't admit it.......

I think were dealing with a French Canadian:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> The more I read this guys post, I think I know what his problem is:yes:
> 
> He comes on this site saying he is a hand taper, yet he knows all about running tools. Hell he even says he owns some machines, yet he likes to identify him self as a hand taper. He knows this site has all types of machine tapers on it, yet he wants to be part of the community, but seperate from it. He knows he needs our help, but won't admit it.......
> 
> I think were dealing with a French Canadian:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


OMG! You're right!!
Goodjob Dr.Phil! :thumbsup:


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

I always run a seam or two, then check it with a knife to guarantee that my box is set properly. After that, it's off to the races. Dbl run every seam.
The mud we use doesn't shrink much. The block coat goes on flat and true, then shrinks back just enough to accept the skim from the 12.
Ceiling butts down the sides. Fill in the middle after it temps up.
Angles, with a corner box and 3.5 head. 
Sometimes we even box the beads. PAs boxes are really nice for this.


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## korby_17 (Jan 7, 2011)

I can't believe this thread is still going on. You not goin to get it through this guys head. I worked with some old guys that will not change there ways and that is it. 
To be a professional taper you have to know how to do everything by hand. Auto tools don't always give you 100% quality finish but as professionals you can see that and fix it by hand. But it is still faster loading a crappy bevel with a box and fixing the bad areas by hand than doing everything by hand. 
I wish every taper in my area did everything by hand because I would get all the work pumping houses out in over twice the hours put into them with still getting the same quality (some by hand of course). 
This whole thread is stupid. Some will just never change and that's that. Go argue with a framer and say a hammer and a nail is faster that air nailers or a horse is faster than a car. STUPID!!!


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

The name says it all " Mudder" pro:whistling2:. If all you want to call yourself is a "mudder" then keep on a muddin


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

PrecisionTaping said:


> This thread is just simply ridiculous....


I agree.

Hand finishing is hands down Way better than auto tools - no discussion needed on that. People who hand finish should stick with it.

And if any hand finishers don't really buy that, don't buy Columbia Tools. I have no problem with my competition not buying Columbia Tools.

Buy the cheapest [email protected] you can (preferably from an online supplier who doesn't ship your order, so then you don't have to worry about someone stealing them once you get them), :thumbsup: so you'll get disgusted with auto tools sooner and go back to hand finishing everything. 

:thumbup:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

korby_17 said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going on. You not goin to get it through this guys head. I worked with some old guys that will not change there ways and that is it.
> To be a professional taper you have to know how to do everything by hand. Auto tools don't always give you 100% quality finish but as professionals you can see that and fix it by hand. But it is still faster loading a crappy bevel with a box and fixing the bad areas by hand than doing everything by hand.
> I wish every taper in my area did everything by hand because I would get all the work pumping houses out in over twice the hours put into them with still getting the same quality (some by hand of course).
> This whole thread is stupid. Some will just never change and that's that. Go argue with a framer and say a hammer and a nail is faster that air nailers or a horse is faster than a car. STUPID!!!


But Kiwiman left us







, who else are we going to pick on


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)




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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

catdod said:


> hi Master, nice to get your feedback about the black widow. you are very stick to a high quality projects, nice to hear more from your voice about the projects in drywall construction.
> 
> also if interested in metal stud & track & wall trim & ceiling furring channels, just contact with us.
> 
> ...


Chinese products,

Toxic Sheetrock
Cadmium in children's jewelry 
Melamine in pet food
Lead in toys 
Antifreeze in toothpaste
tainted various human foods

>Absolutely no regard for intellectual property.<


Poison in clothing.


"Formaldehyde is used to protect clothes that have to be shipped great distances against mildew.
However, long-term exposure to high levels can be harmful, causing problems ranging from minor skin rashes to some types of cancer.
Tests discovered formaldehyde concentrations up to 900 times above the safety limit in children's and adults' woollen and cotton clothes from China.
The latest safety alert over cheap Chinese goods was sounded in New Zealand. It has been passed on to trading standards officials in Britain."

Profit over safety mentality

Your products safe???...????...???


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

They make a real ****ty panel lift also..:yes:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

moore said:


> They make a real ****ty panel lift also..:yes:


I don't know about your area, but they used to use around here the term 'Jap crap' to describe a lot of what was once coming out of Japan. As we all know, that quality changed for the most part.

I was reading a bit ago about what the Chinese are up to with regards to certain markets - how they're going about going after markets now held by 'high end' Western manufacturers, with some new product directions.

AND those products won't be just about their making them for long established Western brand names. They'll be more and more marketed under Chinese brand names. (And they're more and more learning about Effective marketing, which will drive that growth as well.)


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Anybody else get this stupid private message from them!?

"hi Precision Taping, nice to get your feedback about the drywall and taping . you are very stick to a high quality projects, nice to hear more from your voice about the projects in drywall construction.

also if interested in metal stud & track & wall trim & ceiling furring channels, just contact with us."


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Anybody else get this stupid private message from them!?
> 
> "hi Precision Taping, nice to get your feedback about the drywall and taping . you are very stick to a high quality projects, nice to hear more from your voice about the projects in drywall construction.
> 
> also if interested in metal stud & track & wall trim & ceiling furring channels, just contact with us."


Didn't get one. Guess I'm not as popular or important. 

I wonder if that's how Google Translate translates such from Chinese to English?


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

JustMe said:


> Didn't get one. Guess I'm not as popular or important.
> 
> I wonder if that's how Google Translate translates such from Chinese to English?


Who knows. You're okay in my books!! :thumbsup:
I'd tell em to go [email protected] themselves but I doubt the translation would accurately describe what I'm trying to get across to them!


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## gotmud (Mar 21, 2011)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Anybody else get this stupid private message from them!?
> 
> "hi Precision Taping, nice to get your feedback about the drywall and taping . you are very stick to a high quality projects, nice to hear more from your voice about the projects in drywall construction.
> 
> also if interested in metal stud & track & wall trim & ceiling furring channels, just contact with us."


Yep I got one too, same thing lol spammer?


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

catdod said:


> hi Master, nice to get your feedback about the black widow. you are very stick to a high quality projects, nice to hear more from your voice about the projects in drywall construction.
> 
> also if interested in metal stud & track & wall trim & ceiling furring channels, just contact with us.
> 
> ...


Dear Mr/Mrs catdod

Could you please send a PM to Toontowntaper also, So he can tell you to F_ck off in Chinese on behalf of all of us @ DWT:yes::thumbup::jester:


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## Toontowntaper (Dec 16, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Dear Mr/Mrs catdod
> 
> Could you please send a PM to Toontowntaper also, So he can tell you to F_ck off in Chinese on behalf of all of us @ DWT:yes::thumbup::jester:


Lol 2buck now how would that look I have to support all my family in china ..... Jk I don't have any there but I also haven't received a pm from them so now I feel left out


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

I got one too - geez I must be important like 2buckcanuck, Precision Taping and gotmud. :chinese:


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## kcchiefsfan1982 (Oct 4, 2011)

Mudderpro said:


> Its funny how you guys protect aut tools .... Why ? Your affraid that they will not send you tshirt or promo stuff ??
> 
> Nailspotter is no good too much sanding
> Angle head leave marks
> ...


Nailspotters are fine if you sand with a vacuum sander. But, if sanding by hand, it is a bit of work. But, not terrible. I use all automatic tools except the nail spotter.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> Dear Mr/Mrs catdod
> 
> Could you please send a PM to Toontowntaper also, So he can tell you to F_ck off in Chinese on behalf of all of us @ DWT:yes::thumbup::jester:


Such advertisers should read things like Seth Godin's Permission Marketing, before irritating their potential customers: _"Permission marketing is the privilege (not the right) of delivering anticipated, personal and relevant messages to people who actually want to get them._
_It recognizes the new power of the best consumers to ignore marketing. It realizes that treating people with respect is the best way to earn their attention_."

What I'd like to say regarding this is that I'd like catdod, and other 'intrusive' advertisers on the internet (that includes those advertisers who make it so you have to sit through their ads on places like Youtube before you can listen to a song), that I make it a point of trying to remember you.

But that isn't so I'll buy your product(s). I try to remember you so that I can make it a point of NOT buying your products, if possible. Especially some of you worst ones. (For me, Ford especially comes to mind right now. And catdod, catdod's company.)


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mudshark said:


> I got one too - geez I must be important like 2buckcanuck, Precision Taping and gotmud. :chinese:


Not to burst your bubble but:whistling2:........

In my reply back to catdod, I said Mudshark would be the person most interested in their products:thumbup::whistling2:


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

:furious:


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