# Which Flat Box to Buy?



## bruceerice

We hang and finish drywall with our remodeling business and I have some corner tools and taping tools, but I want to buy a flat box. Looking for suggestions about the one to purchase.... We go in spurts doing drywall, some months quite a bit and some months maybe 20 sheets. It's not our full time job as we are bathroom remodel guys. 
2 questions:

Which flat box to buy and do I need 8 10 & 12

Do you let the tape dry before you do the first coat with the box?

Thanks
bruce


----------



## Steve

bruceerice said:


> We hang and finish drywall with our remodeling business and I have some corner tools and taping tools, but I want to buy a flat box. Looking for suggestions about the one to purchase.... We go in spurts doing drywall, some months quite a bit and some months maybe 20 sheets. It's not our full time job as we are bathroom remodel guys.
> 2 questions:
> 
> Which flat box to buy and do I need 8 10 & 12
> 
> Do you let the tape dry before you do the first coat with the box?
> 
> Thanks
> bruce


I always let the tape dry before I second coat it. If you apply a second coat of compound before the tape coat is dry, the tape will actually start to rise to the surface. I know it sounds crazy and the actual affects will vary with specific details such as; how wet the mud is, what type of mud you use, and other atmospheric conditions which I won't get into.

Oh yeah, the brand of flat box isn't a big deal either. Other than those cheap goldblatt boxes, I would buy any brand. I originally purchased a set locally but realized there are few benefits doing so. When you need a part, they have to order it anyway. I try to buy USA made tools but it's not always possible. If you have a relationship with a tool supplier I would get whatever they have if they will back them up. 

I use 8, 10, and 12" boxes, but I started with just the 10 & 12" boxes first.

Another thing to consider is that there is little benefit using the tools on very small jobs. It can take more time to clean your tools than use them.


----------



## JustMe

bruceerice said:


> We go in spurts doing drywall, some months quite a bit and some months maybe 20 sheets. It's not our full time job as we are bathroom remodel guys.
> 2 questions:
> 
> Which flat box to buy and do I need 8 10 & 12
> 
> Do you let the tape dry before you do the first coat with the box?


The 2 box makers I'm familiar with somewhat are TapeTech and Columbia. Both seem to work well enough. On the commercial jobs I've been involved with so far, we've only used the 10" and 12" sizes. The smaller boxes aren't used. Based on your described situation, if I had to choose one size only, it would probably be the 10", to lay down a smooth coat over installed tapes, on which it is then easy/easier to do by hand the last coat.

As Steve said, it's sometimes hard to justify pulling out a box on small jobs, mostly because of the cleaning time. But if you don't do mudding work a fair amount, you may not be as fast or as good doing it by hand as others on this site, which should make using a box more useful to you on even the smaller stuff.

So an easy to clean box might be a good choice, if only so you can justify pulling it out as often as possible. TapeTech has what they call EasyClean boxes: http://catalog.amestools.com/item/tapetech-tools-purchase/finishing-boxes/easyclean-box-2?&seo=1

If you want to do things like box ceiling tapes as well, or box things like 8' high horizontal joints and high butt tapes at times, having a little help to get it done might be of some value, if you find getting even coats of mud on them with a box a little difficult at times. When you're filling the bevel with mud or 1st coating butts, after you've installed your tape, a 10" TapeTech Power Assist is one you might find useful: http://catalog.amestools.com/item/tapetech-tools-purchase/finishing-boxes/power-assist-box-2?&seo=1
The Power Assist boxes also have the Easy Clean feature. They also carry a decent amount of mud - at least when I compare one to older TapeTech boxes - so you don't have to refill quite so much.

Putting the final thin 12" coat on usually seems easier, so the Power Assist feature isn't quite as useful, but it can be useful to help get a more consistent coat on quicker, especially in some harder to get to areas.
But the way the Power Assist mechanism works does seem to make it harder to box out some things, like the bottom 4' butt joints. Practice at it should help take care of that well enough.

One trick I got onto with the Power Assist types is 'clicking' the pressure plate back one notch after making a run with it. Otherwise the box pushes out extra mud a bit, and clicking it back will prevent that, or will 'suck' the mud back in.

The Columbia boxes have what's called Fat Boy boxes, as well as their standard size boxes. If I was going to do a fair amount of mud work, a Fat Boy is nice, especially when filling bevels and coating butt joints with the 1st coat, because of not having to refill so often. But without having a Power Assist feature, it does make boxing higher up joints harder. A 10" Fat Boy, to fill the bevels and 1st coat butt joints. For the 12", in your case I'm not sure if I'd go with a 12" standard size, or a 12" Fat Boy. The Fat Boys do have an Easy Clean feature. I don't know if Columbia's newer standard sized ones do.

As for taping, we leave the tapes to dry before box coating. I usually use an Ames AB0001 model Cobra banjo for taping smaller stuff like what it sounds like you're into - http://catalog.amestools.com/item/d...2/dry-tape-banjo?&seo=1&bc=100|4961|4974|5147 - although I've used it to tape larger areas when a bazooka isn't available. I can string a decent amount of tape in short time with it, and do a good job, especially if I use its cutting nose to tell me towards the end of a run if I'm starting to miss mudding the backside of some areas of the tape.


----------



## brdn_drywall

completely agree with justme for his reasoning in putting down the base coat smooth and then pulling a tight skim over it, the box will keep your flats consistent (ripple and skip free with the perfect amount of mud) and both Columbia and tapetech are the industry leaders for good reason they both make good tools and either would be a solid investment, and coating over wet tapes is not a good idea for his above reasons but i tape the flats, butts first then proceed to the corners and bead and screws by that time they're usually set enough for a base coat.


----------



## tapingfool

I have been a loyal tapetech user for decades, I have an older box, and I hear the new ones break down due to outsourcing to china, So I would go with jon's best line or columbia, make sure you can test them first, have a salesperson demonstrate..with the easy clean you can use 220 quick dry so you can 2 coat in one day!! good luck..


----------



## tapingfool

@ justme
can you put up a video of using the banjo?


----------



## JustMe

tapingfool said:


> @ justme
> can you put up a video of using the banjo?


You seem to be following me around on this website asking this. Any particular reason? Btw: It'll cost. 5,000.00 U.S. for trade secrets. ~


----------



## JustMe

tapingfool said:


> I have been a loyal tapetech user for decades, I have an older box, and I hear the new ones break down due to outsourcing to china, So I would go with jon's best line or columbia, make sure you can test them first, have a salesperson demonstrate..with the easy clean you can use 220 quick dry so you can 2 coat in one day!! good luck..


I wonder what parts exactly are supposed to be breaking more than before on TapeTech boxes. Anyone know?

Something I'd posted previously about the TapeTech quality thing on the Info on Goldblatt Tools thread:



JustMe said:


> Thanks for that, chasleem. After reading your post, I did a quick comparison between the new 10" power assist TapeTech box I picked up recently and an older 7" TapeTech box the company I work with has. It looks like the rods in the 10" are hollow shafts, with screws tapped into the ends. The older 7" looks to have solid rods, threaded on the end and self-locking nuts put on. If the screws do strip, we'll likely replace the hollow shafts and screws with solid shafts and locking nuts. Or maybe I'll just thread some longer screws into the tubing before they do strip.


The quality of the new Power Assist box still seems to be decent. But I don't consider myself an expert enough on boxes to be sure of that.

I will say that I believe any concerns about the change in quality is offset by the benefits that can be gotten from such a box. Another thing to consider is that bruceerice isn't a full-time taper, so a box of decent enough quality should last him for a long time.



tapingfool said:


> @ justme
> can you put up a video of using the banjo?


A youtube tape on banjoing some of what you said on your banjo thread as to what you were looking for: 



 
I'm thinking he's possibly running the face of the tape a little too dry, by the way his flusher seems to be 'sticking' in some places while moving along the tape. But maybe that's also resulting from the tape bunching up a bit in front of the flusher at times. Maybe both. Maybe neither.

Based on where I'm at, I would've used a roller first, if one was available. But he seems to do well enough without it.


----------



## tapingfool

JustMe said:


> You seem to be following me around on this website asking this. Any particular reason? Btw: It'll cost. 5,000.00 U.S. for trade secrets. ~


 
not following you around, although the rooms are small..lol just asking because there are plenty of videos with bazookas, but only that short one you sent, I already saw..


----------



## JustMe

tapingfool said:


> not following you around, although the rooms are small..lol just asking because there are plenty of videos with bazookas, but only that short one you sent, I already saw..


I see. I'll post a couple more to your banjo thread that I've come across previously, as I find them.


----------



## Bevelation

As personal opinion, I would not recommend Northstar boxes.


----------



## Steve

Bevelation said:


> As personal opinion, I would not recommend Northstar boxes.


I never tried those. What do you dislike about them?


----------



## Steve

JustMe said:


> One trick I got onto with the Power Assist types is 'clicking' the pressure plate back one notch after making a run with it. Otherwise the box pushes out extra mud a bit, and clicking it back will prevent that, or will 'suck' the mud back in.


I haven't tried the power assist boxes. What do you mean by "clicking the pressure plate back one notch"? And how much less pressure does it take to run these?


----------



## JustMe

Steve said:


> I haven't tried the power assist boxes. What do you mean by "clicking the pressure plate back one notch"?


Get your hands on one and have it so the pressure plate is pushed down into the box somewhat. Then pull up on the pressure plate a bit and you'll know what I mean. There's meshing teeth at the back of the box that prevent the power assist springs from continuing to squeeze out mud. When you pull up on the plate, it will allow the teeth to 'click' back one or more settings, and relieve any existing pressure put on the mud in the box by the springs. 
The operating instructions for such boxes (see below) addresses this mud pushing issue, but sometimes it just seems easier to do it by grabbing the flat box's handle and pull up on it with one hand, while holding the box with the other.

Here's the text copy of the operations guide for Power Assist boxes, from Ames Tools website:

This tool requires little effort to operate and is designed to produce uniform results every time.
The Power Assist™ Box is controlled by the box handle. These handles come in multiple lengths from 34” to 72”. The handle is attached to the box by sliding the box onto then handle and tightening the two wing nuts.
Notice the arms mounted on the pressure plate of the box. These arms are connecting points for the power assist springs. The other end of the springs is attached to the top of the radius plate by stretching them over and onto the spring mounts. Make sure these springs are attached properly.
Pull the pressure plate out to the fully open position. Note that the pressure plate will “catch” in that position and be held there. There is a “lock” mounted on the right side of the pressure plate that holds the tool in the fill position. Fill the box with joint compound through the opening behind the blade using the slot adapter and EasyClean® Pump.
The finisher box wheels activate the power assist feature. This is done by pressing the box against the wall in such a way that the axle is compressed and the “catch” releases the cog on the pressure plate. The mud will not flow until this “catch” is released. As soon as the catch releases, mud will start slowly flowing from the box. Move the box along the joint to be finished, as with any other finisher box. You will need to apply very little pressure to keep the joint compound flowing from the box. The amount of pressure needed will vary with conditions and compound consistency.
Note, if you have trouble getting the “catch” to release, try placing the box on the wall, wheels first.
The flow of joint compound is stopped by sweeping the wheels off the wall. The flow of joint compound does not stop immediately. It is suggested that you sweep the wheels off the wall about 6” earlier than would normally be done to keep excess compound from flowing onto the outside of the box.
The pressure plate on the Power Assist™ Box CANNOT be moved inward unless the wheels are triggered and the pressure plate “catch” is released. This applies to both running the tool and emptying unused compound. To refill the Power Assist™ Box pull back on the handle to open the pressure plate to its open position.​ 



Steve said:


> And how much less pressure does it take to run these?


As the operating instructions state, "The amount of pressure needed will vary with conditions and compound consistency." I haven't boxed lots, but so far I found it especially useful doing ceilings and upper butt joints, when compared to regular boxes.

The head taper at the company I'm working with used it to box the 4', 8' and 12' horizontal flats in a large area. He doesn't usually say much, but he commented on having found it especially easier to do the 8' and 12' when compared to using his Columbia 10" Fat Boy. He wouldn't later re-coat the 12' flat with his 12" Columbia box, but did that by hand. He's quick with knives, and I think he didn't like the idea of having to put so much sideways pressure on a scaffold when working at that height, even if someone was holding the scaffold.

When I asked the TapeTech dealer how others had found the box, he said one individual (or company) bought one and tried it. They said they went back to using their old boxes. I don't know why. Maybe they didn't have the springs set up right (see my comment next paragraph); &/or or didn't take the time to really learn how to run it right; &/or didn't apply it enough to those areas where it could be especially useful.

The box the dealer initially showed me wasn't set at it's maximum spring setting, and he seemed a bit surprised when I showed him how to change it up. I was surprised that he seemed surprised - the box isn't rocket science. It's also not a 'new generation' replacement for everything when it comes to boxing. It also takes a little more getting used to when compared to traditional boxes. But the learning curve isn't bad, except for maybe bottom 4' butt joints a bit.

My assessment is the box has its place. If I could only have one 10" box, then at this time, based on my experiences with boxes and what I know (and believe I know), I would choose the Power Assist one.

Btw: Many of the pictures I've seen on websites (like All-Wall.com) that show the Power Assist boxes, are wrong. Here's a correct picture:

http://www.leadingedgedrywall.com/ItemDetails.aspx?item_id=3861

Edit: One thing further that came to mind is that the catch teeth on the box didn't line up/mesh with each other as well as I would've liked at first, and the misalignment skewed somewhat the bar that the wheels are mounted on. I loosened the screws of the catch part that mounts on the pressure plate and realigned it somewhat, then tightened the screws back up. That helped to get things lining up and tracking truer. The wheel bar still sits a little skewed when not being used, but easily straightens itself out when being run, due to some adjustment flexibility in the mechanism's design. I can get nice straight runs with it, maybe in part because I don't have to be so concerned about pushing on it so hard, which can give me better control.


----------



## Bevelation

Steve said:


> I never tried those. What do you dislike about them?


The mud slot is too small, so it's a hard push with stiffer mud on 1st coat. You have to thin your mud down; quite often too much and it causes slop. Thinner mud also makes your flats look wavy by finish stage.


----------



## joepro0000

Last month me and my finisher where using 2 - 10 inch boxes at the same time. 1 tape tech with no springs attached and 1 columbia with springs. Guess what - No difference - Same smooth finish on each coat!


----------



## JustMe

I'm thinking your post may have been mostly directed towards me, Joe, regarding the TapeTech Power Assist boxes I brought up previously. If so, a couple of questions:



joepro0000 said:


> Last month me and my finisher where using 2 - 10 inch boxes at the same time. 1 tape tech with no springs attached and 1 columbia with springs.


Who was owning/using which box, and why? Btw: Are you meaning the TapeTech had the springs, and the Columbia was the one without them?



joepro0000 said:


> Guess what - No difference - Same smooth finish on each coat!


Both should deliver such a coat. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Could you clarify.


----------



## Steve

joepro0000 said:


> Last month me and my finisher where using 2 - 10 inch boxes at the same time. 1 tape tech with no springs attached and 1 columbia with springs. Guess what - No difference - Same smooth finish on each coat!


I've never used any brand of flat box without the springs. What's the difference in feel? I always thought that the springs would help me keep a consistent pressure throughout the capacity run of the box. And make it easier to fill the box. But come to think of it, they probably don't do a whole lot.


----------



## joepro0000

JustMe-

I own both boxes, Columbia ones (10,12) bought first, then I came across a deal of Tape Tech ones (10,12) and the Columbia had the springs on. The tape tech didn't have the springs one. My point is that both regardless of name brand, do the same job you need them to perform. I think with-out springs, you can push the boxes easier when doing stand-ups with a long pole extension.


----------



## Anonymous Drywall

I like the Drywall Master boxes. 10,12 made in the U.S.A. and affordable. I really like there ergonomically bent handles.


----------

