# Union workers



## Crazy5778 (Apr 29, 2016)

So I have been in the Drywall business here in North Carolina for 25 years before taking a union job at a tobacco company that is now after 4 years laying me off this summer.
My question is is it hard to get in a union if I move up north and what kinda money could I make???


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Crazy5778 said:


> So I have been in the Drywall business here in North Carolina for 25 years before taking a union job at a tobacco company that is now after 4 years laying me off this summer.
> My question is is it hard to get in a union if I move up north and what kinda money could I make???


Go for it just call the Union Hall of the Trade of Choice, its the best move for a Tradesman to make,

It is not hard to Get into a Union, and its sheer stupidity for a guy to fly Solo and battle illegal immigrants


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Take Moore with ya too


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Go for it just call the Union Hall of the Trade of Choice, its the best move for a Tradesman to make,
> 
> It is not hard to Get into a Union, and its sheer stupidity for a guy to fly Solo and battle illegal immigrants


First, everyone has a right to make a living however they chose. I didn't have a clue when I joined the union of the benefits involved because I thought everybody did it this way. We had some non union but they were drunks and drug addicts.

Unions are a socialist ideal where everyone works for a common cause. This is the betterment of the members and the employers we serve. Most don't understand Social Security, Medicare, Federal Reserve Bank, and health insurance are all socialist ideals. This is why you have one party calling to end these programs.

To be union you must live in a large metropolis and typically a blue friendly state. This means you have to tolerate traffic and greater congestion. If you're willing to do this find out who represents the finishers and what it takes to join. Where I'm from it is these folks.

http://dc16iupat.org/

I'm thankful everyday to be 3rd generation retired Carpenter's Union. My dad will be 81 this year and I remember watching him hang board like a mad man. He was one of the fastest crews as I later came to be.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Thanks for the info breakdown, it's all choice in the End, Also is choice to roll Jeeps down Nevada hills


----------



## krem (Mar 20, 2016)

hmmmm.... unions...
dont want to start a huge thing on here, but heres my view on them here in Australia
ive always been in a union until i started plastering, so 15yrs or so, and they did absolutely nothing good that lasted in that time, yes we now have good wages, safe working environments, penalty rates for weekends and overtime etc etc etc, but weve had them here in aust for many yrs, yes the unions did help achieve them things, and things would be alot different and worse if it were not for the unions.
Now they are simply wrecking our great country, al they seem interested in is fighting for huge pay increases, getting greedier by the day, thats all good, i love making a few extra $$, but 3 of the last big companies i have worked for (factories) have all closed down, our "great" unions wanted us all to be rich, outpriced our products by holding the companies to ranson for huge pay increases and our jobs were lost because we couldnt compete with overseas products, 
the last company i worked for (Aust paper) told the unions during negotians that any pay increases above 2% would be the end of the company, unions said not to make threats and asked for a 7% increase, company said, not a threat its reality, the company would shut down within 2yrs, we ended up getting a 4.5% increase, putting the average wage at around $80k a yr (we only worked 142 days for the yr, 12 hrs shifts and slept for most of it as the machines did all the work!!) company shut down around 13 months later!!!
unions went real quiet when word was out that it was pre warned of the outcome, 
most of australias industries are all closing down, our cars are too expensive to make here, government was propping them up with 100's millions a yr (but then buying imported fleet cars!!) most of our manufacturing plants are going overseas simply because wages here are too high!!
unions here have too much power, take no respnsibility for the closures (even when it is proven its because of wages are too high because of the unions holding companioes to ransom!!)
in another 15 yrs of this, Australia will be all foreign owned and run, 
unions were necessary in certain aspects over the last 50 yrs, but times have changed, conditions have changed, basically everything has changed in our working world (here in Aust anyways), we have great conditions, too much pay, we arent owned by our bosses like we were 50yrs ago, in my opinion, unions here have had their time, things need to change, so from experience, when your unions ask you if you want more money, ask yourself, is a few extra $$ today worth not having a job tomorrow?? I would have been happy with a pay freeze at Aust paper, i was on near $80k a yr, great overtime rates, had over 6 months a yr off, what good was an extra $3600 for the next yr when i had not job the yr after??
so from my and many others experinces here, dont let the unions have too much power, in the long run, its not worth it, i will never join another 1 (and no, im not a drug junkie or a drunk just because i wont be in a union :furious i dont know what conditions are like in your part of the world, but when you have safe working conditions, good pay and are treated ok at work, thats enough, you will regret reaching for that extra piece of cake!!!
krem


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

So only union jobs were outsourced? Here in the US they outsourced all jobs that could be done cheaper. Can they outsource what you do now? Do you feel your work on this earth is worth less than others?
Sorry, but this argument is a skew to bash the good unions do. The people that think this up still get in their union made cars to drive home. I'm sorry but I don't feel someone is better because they were born into wealth.

The base of your argument is to blame globalization on the working class and I don't buy it. If you sweat for a living they can never pay you enough. When you consider the 1% pays to sweat!


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

krem said:


> hmmmm.... unions...
> dont want to start a huge thing on here, but heres my view on them here
> 
> your problem comes from Government who do not ajust tax at the border, inturn would shut down outsource as it would be not worth the grief, think its easy to be attentive on quality control?
> ...


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

MrWillys said:


> First, everyone has a right to make a living however they chose. I didn't have a clue when I joined the union of the benefits involved because I thought everybody did it this way. We had some non union but they were drunks and drug addicts.
> 
> Unions are a socialist ideal where everyone works for a common cause. This is the betterment of the members and the employers we serve. Most don't understand Social Security, Medicare, Federal Reserve Bank, and health insurance are all socialist ideals. This is why you have one party calling to end these programs.
> 
> ...


"Unions are a socialist ideal where everyone works for a common cause." If I remember my economics correctly, Unions came out of the "Institutionalism" philosophy popularized by people like Thorsten Veblen. Not socialist exactly. The idea (assumption) was that in every industry there was always a positive "economy of scale" . Bigger firms could always get things done cheaper than smaller firms. And would thus always gain monopoly power over smaller competitors. In this philosophy, workers must also form a monopoly to even the playing field with the large firms. This "Institutionalist" philosophy turns to only be valid in certain industries with a very high barrier to entry. Socialism is a political system where a public cooperative owns and manages production. The European "Middle Way" is where private firms own and manage production, but the cooperative owns some or all of the profits. The profits of industry are then divided among the public, or "public good".


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

Unions are big business friend. 

Democracy don’t rule the world
You’d better get that in your head
This world is ruled by violence
But I guess that’s better left unsaid
From Broadway to the Milky Way
That’s a lot of territory indeed
And a man’s gonna do what he has to do
When he’s got a hungry mouth to feed. 




Sundown on the Union. Bob Dillion. .


----------



## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

krem said:


> hmmmm.... unions...
> dont want to start a huge thing on here, but heres my view on them here in Australia
> ive always been in a union until i started plastering, so 15yrs or so, and they did absolutely nothing good that lasted in that time, yes we now have good wages, safe working environments, penalty rates for weekends and overtime etc etc etc, but weve had them here in aust for many yrs, yes the unions did help achieve them things, and things would be alot different and worse if it were not for the unions.
> Now they are simply wrecking our great country, al they seem interested in is fighting for huge pay increases, getting greedier by the day, thats all good, i love making a few extra $$, but 3 of the last big companies i have worked for (factories) have all closed down, our "great" unions wanted us all to be rich, outpriced our products by holding the companies to ranson for huge pay increases and our jobs were lost because we couldnt compete with overseas products,
> ...


I cant quote this 100% but before holden decided to close apparantly if a worker was caught drug affected he was put into rehab which had to be paid by holden and his wages while there......i am sorry get fkd i see ur point krem....in saying that a great union is a great union


----------



## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Gm holden was held to ransom hear the starting entry level guy was taking home 1100 per week i am sorry union has it self to blame for holden


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

It's reminding me of this old thread,,,

http://www.drywalltalk.com/f20/union-vs-non-union-9281/


----------



## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

I dunno does the union screw ur country as well or are the knight in shining armour for u guys


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

embella plaster said:


> I dunno does the union screw ur country as well or are the knight in shining armour for u guys


That's a good question. 
I know state workers union pensions are crushing state budgets all over the US. Most US states need massive reforms to the state workers pension programs because they are unsustainable. It's a real problem with no practical solution,,,, other than large tax increases to property owners. Large cuts in state spending could help but would likely never happen, especially in a blue state.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

second thought I retract the MX coment they need an industry


----------



## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

embella plaster said:


> Gm holden was held to ransom hear the starting entry level guy was taking home 1100 per week i am sorry union has it self to blame for holden


just a question.....can you live with less?


----------



## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

keke said:


> just a question.....can you live with less?


Keke when i did a Comercial stint we wer paid as subbies all 40 of us and if any one spoke dont come in tommorow had to pay union fees and all
But good point about living on less


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> "Unions are a socialist ideal where everyone works for a common cause." If I remember my economics correctly, Unions came out of the "Institutionalism" philosophy popularized by people like Thorsten Veblen. Not socialist exactly. The idea (assumption) was that in every industry there was always a positive "economy of scale" . Bigger firms could always get things done cheaper than smaller firms. And would thus always gain monopoly power over smaller competitors. In this philosophy, workers must also form a monopoly to even the playing field with the large firms. This "Institutionalist" philosophy turns to only be valid in certain industries with a very high barrier to entry. Socialism is a political system where a public cooperative owns and manages production. The European "Middle Way" is where private firms own and manage production, but the cooperative owns some or all of the profits. The profits of industry are then divided among the public, or "public good".


My apologies for the subject matter getting a little deep.

While institutionalism may have helped to bring about unions it is not the basis. Veblen was not a socialist but rather explained it and predicted its rise in the US. In fact, he was quite against it and was more of a precursor to Ayn Rand. He was also a contributor to America's first Red Scare where a campaign demonizes a portion of society to gain allegiance to their cause. This occurred shortly after WW1 where Socialists and Communist leaning people were labeled as evil to regain support for the 1% elitist. It occurred again in the 50's with McCarthyism, and is the same campaign tactic being used today by Trump.

During the late 19th century unions were considered socialist and anarchist considering the rebel rousing (anarchist similar to Trump) tactic employed. Modern times have proven that the anarchist label has been subdued due to complacency. Socialism itself is much larger than simply a political ideal. It is more of a love for all. Capitalism means you screw over your family for money, but socialism understands your concern for others.

Modern day institutionalism is on Wall Street and is very much non-union and creates too big to fail. When I was a kid the guy at the hardware store owned it and paid his employees a living wage. Today we have corporations buying industry like Walmart and Home Depot paying low wages and displacing mom and pop operations to gain control. A perfect example is in our own industry. Just a few years ago LW Supply went around the US and bought up all the drywall supply companies. This allows them to control pricing and the markets against everything our fore fathers fought against.

Bottom line, Bernie Sanders brings a very credible argument but will never get elected. Trump is the 1% he claims he's against. I support all labor no matter what flavor if a guy wants to feed his family. Unions have there place in this world and are needed to keep the 1% in check and perpetuate the crafts.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

I can't disagree with the idea that Capitalism often rewards sinners, while too often saints go bankrupt. It's just that all of our remedies for it tend to make things worse. As much as I complain about the USA, I prefer the Capitalism that seems to pervade most English speaking countries, to the Socialism of Chavez, Castro, and Stalin. (Or Greece)Compare Taiwan to main land China.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> I can't disagree with the idea that Capitalism often rewards sinners, while too often saints go bankrupt. It's just that all of our remedies for it tend to make things worse. As much as I complain about the USA, I prefer the Capitalism that seems to pervade most English speaking countries, to the Socialism of Chavez, Castro, and Stalin. (Or Greece)Compare Taiwan to main land China.


Please don't confuse communism and socialism.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

MrWillys said:


> Please don't confuse communism and socialism.



And don't confuse building a wall with racism.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

MrWillys said:


> Please don't confuse communism and socialism.


Stalin = Union of Soviet Socialists Republic
Nazi = National Socialist Party 

Sure. But it's the name and description they chose. Two points along the same path.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> Stalin = Union of Soviet Socialists Republic


 People, this is called wordsmithing by revising a statement in an attempt to make an argument credible. The real name of Stalin and his policy is.
The Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union

Communism is where everyone is on a level playing field and breeds complacency.



> Nazi = National Socialist Party


 In 1933, with the support of traditional conservative nationalists, Hitler was appointed Chancellor of Germany and the Nazis gradually established a one-party state, under which Jews, political opponents and other "undesirable" elements were marginalized, with several millions eventually imprisoned and killed.

You are correct, and superiority is a right wing ideal. Pot meet Donald Trump!


> Sure. But it's the name and description they chose. Two points along the same path.


According to Ben Bernanke we have the following rules of government.

Communism = all are equal
Socialism = all work together for a common goal
Theocracy = rule by religious values
Capitalism = A false construct doomed to failure
Democratic Socialist Republic = Economy appears to be free but has regulation to avoid collapse.

The attempt to associate communism with socialism is to demonize it as a whole.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Capitalism = A false construct doomed to failure

Interesting, in that USSR collapsed. Socialist Venezuela is collapsing. China is trying to adopt enough capitalism to avoid collapse. Robert Mugabe's collectivist government in Zimbabwe is collapsing. Cuba, waiting for a couple of old men to die. Great Britain and New Zealand are retracting from many of their former socialist excesses. And the USA economy plugs along despite horrible back to back administrations which made idiotic policy decisions. As Margaret Thatcher aptly put it, Socialism works until you run out of other people's money to spend. I still stand by the idea that unions are not really socialistic. They were a capitalist response to oligopolies trying to keep wages below market value.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

Capitalism = A false construct doomed for failure. Where in the hell did you get that? Liberal logic. 

Here Is the definition out of the dictionary. 


Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. Characteristics central to capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labor, voluntary exchange, a price system, and competitive markets.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Keep it up and you're gonna "get his goat", Mr. Brightstar. 
You'll be on the shun list.:whistling2:


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Keep it up and you're gonna "get his goat", Mr. Brightstar.
> 
> You'll be on the shun list.:whistling2:



I saw his people in California last week. Rioting in the streets destroying police cars and bloodying up Trump supporters. It seems all the Democratic Party cares about anymore is gays and what bathroom a transgender can use. 

Love the hypocrisy of the globalist commie leftists holding signs saying "stop the hate" and all they do is commit acts of violence and yell hateful things at Trump supporters.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> I saw his people in California last week. Rioting in the streets destroying police cars and bloodying up Trump supporters. It seems all the Democratic Party cares about anymore is gays and what bathroom a transgender can use.
> 
> Love the hypocrisy of the globalist commie leftists; holding signs saying "stop the hate" and all they do is commit acts of violence and yell hateful things at Trump supporters.


 Funny how we each perceive things differently. I saw both sides guilty and arrested as the supporters were leaving. The sad reality is our elections are a choice of a who we perceive as a lesser evil.

From CNN.

Several scuffles broke out between Trump supporters who were leaving the rally and people in the streets who accused them of being racists.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Arguing Politics and religion are a good way to make enemies. I make enough enemies arguing drywall. Still, I enjoy other peoples' honest point of view, even when I don't agree.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

View attachment 29593


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> View attachment 29593


Where did you get the pic of embellas wife?:blink:


----------



## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Haha p.a ur a funny one i am so use to her tits out i post pics before even noticing


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Ask your wife if she's still mad at me, Embella.


----------



## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Haha she always says tell pa to shut up its funny lol


----------



## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

There your answer she has a lot of teeth left for a cheeky b*tch


----------



## icerock drywall (Nov 13, 2010)

I would argue with her everyday.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

embella plaster said:


> There your answer she has a lot of teeth left for a cheeky b*tch


Tell her I'm not looking for her forgiveness. I was hoping she was still a sour girl, it becomes her. But I luv her anyway.


----------



## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

icerock drywall said:


> I would argue with her everyday.


We do i tell her every day of u were a bloke this conversation would end more messy lol


----------



## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

embella plaster said:


> Haha p.a ur a funny one i am so use to her tits out i post pics before even noticing


Lucky bugger :furious:


----------



## krem (Mar 20, 2016)

MrWillys said:


> So only union jobs were outsourced? Here in the US they outsourced all jobs that could be done cheaper. Can they outsource what you do now? Do you feel your work on this earth is worth less than others?
> Sorry, but this argument is a skew to bash the good unions do. The people that think this up still get in their union made cars to drive home. I'm sorry but I don't feel someone is better because they were born into wealth.
> 
> The base of your argument is to blame globalization on the working class and I don't buy it. If you sweat for a living they can never pay you enough. When you consider the 1% pays to sweat!



na, the whole factory shut down, went broke, hmmmm, all 3 of them, lol, maybe it was just me being a bad omen:whistling2:
in all 3 companies i worked alongside non union workers, workers from a different union and they all got the same pay and entitlements, so my $30week union fees was wasted anyways!!
im not bashing unions, they have done alot of good in the past, but that was then, no safety, crap pay, etc etc, now we have that, they seem to just push for more pay, times have changed, i can remember when my mates dad worked on the wharf, if it hit 40deg for more than a hr, they stopped work and went home, union rules, that was 30yrs ago and alot of manual labour was done, not much pallets and stuff, well now that everytjhing is basically machines, with air con and the heaviest thing they lift is a can of coke, that 40deg heat thing still applies!!
we used to have stuff all open on weekends, so if you were to give up your weekend to work, you got extra, now everything is open, its the norm, so why the extra pay still for weekends?? ppl still get weekedays off to relax and enjoy themselves, times have changed, so now the rules need to aswell IMO
EBA's, yeah they are great, but like i said in my 1st post, wat good is a pay increase today, if your boss goes broke tomorrow as a result, 
in answer to your other question, yes i sweat, yes i like money, but im not greedy, my work is not worth less than others, i take pride in what i do and do every job to the best of my ability, but if to ask more money would mean less/no work as no1 would be able to afford to hire me, and besides, we have learnt to live within our means, where i live, the average pay is $34kyr, we earn more than that now, but when i 1st started plastering there were a few yrs i earnt around $20kyr, we still survived, we still managed and we are better ppl because of it!!
all im saying, here in Oz, the unions have stuffed our industries, we are hugely overpaid and have majorly outpriced our products that cant compete with overseas products, i was getting paid nearly $80k yr to sleep while a paper machine rolled paper onto reels!! china can do the exact same thing and hire 15 workers for what my wage was!! unions kept paying for huge pay increases, in 1 EBA (4yr deal) we got 6% a yr, inflation at the time was 2.2%!!! that was backed on our Aus paper mill making its best ever $4m loss, down from $7m yrs before (never made a profit in nearly 35yrs!! but thats another long and complicated story!!) the unions went into negotions at 11%!!!!
so in 1 way, yeah the unions were red hot at getting us good money, excellent conditions (we got meals, dirt allowance, wet allowance, 20hrs pay for an extra 4hrs work, only worked 142 days a yr, and thats just the start!!) it was living the dream, but each dream requires a wake up, and the unions ran for the hills when every1 woke up!!
krem


----------



## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

krem said:


> na, the whole factory shut down, went broke, hmmmm, all 3 of them, lol, maybe it was just me being a bad omen:whistling2:
> in all 3 companies i worked alongside non union workers, workers from a different union and they all got the same pay and entitlements, so my $30week union fees was wasted anyways!!
> im not bashing unions, they have done alot of good in the past, but that was then, no safety, crap pay, etc etc, now we have that, they seem to just push for more pay, times have changed, i can remember when my mates dad worked on the wharf, if it hit 40deg for more than a hr, they stopped work and went home, union rules, that was 30yrs ago and alot of manual labour was done, not much pallets and stuff, well now that everytjhing is basically machines, with air con and the heaviest thing they lift is a can of coke, that 40deg heat thing still applies!!
> we used to have stuff all open on weekends, so if you were to give up your weekend to work, you got extra, now everything is open, its the norm, so why the extra pay still for weekends?? ppl still get weekedays off to relax and enjoy themselves, times have changed, so now the rules need to aswell IMO
> ...


Sorry, but I don't agree with you.

Not the union is the one to blame but the big corporations ( that control the governments with their lobby and do nothing for this country ... not even paying their taxes - see PANAMA PAPERS).... they close down the factories and moved them to China to make more profit for themselves ....Did they drop the prices as a result of cheaper work force???What the govnmt did for us? They signed a trade agreement with China ...Chinese companies with projects over 150mil are allowed to bring their own labour from China with Chinese wages

We get overpaid.... I don't think so... have you lately looked at the prices when you go grocery shopping and you spend over 100 on few things only.?..( I'm talking about buying real food to feed your family not $1 prepacked junks to support other big corporations) 

Can you still survive with 20 k yr ... when you pay for your place at least $12,000 a year, over $1 l petrol, and buy little grocery with $100? 
Whose to blame for this?.... Is the UNION????

I travel everyday to city and pay a min of $15 parking + petrol, + car expenses + my tools .... How much left to support my family if I get paid $10 hr?

I pay my tax every year as you and any other hard worker in this country 

... please don't tell me I'm overpaid when I sometimes struggle getting my money and paying my bills

Thanks Australian Gov because you export our wealth and make our lives miserable!


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

This discussion got better when it moved from economics to feminine cleavage. Now it's going back to economics.


----------



## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

I went through the department of labor for permanent labor certification that allows me to hire foreign workers to permanently work in the United states. If my workers green card is about to expire has expired or they never had one in the first place I'll file a type 3 h-1b application so they temporarily have a green card then go through and file an I-140 application for an alien worker to become a permanent resident of the United states. After years of permanent residence they can file for naturalization and become a us citizen. My best workers were foreigners who absolutely love me for doing this for them. You can just file for them to have green cards and they'll work hard and love you for it. Don't know why other don't do this I have a hard enough time finding skilled workers no way I'll let the guys I have go because I don't want to file some paperwork.


----------



## krem (Mar 20, 2016)

keke said:


> Sorry, but I don't agree with you.
> 
> Not the union is the one to blame but the big corporations ( that control the governments with their lobby and do nothing for this country ... not even paying their taxes - see PANAMA PAPERS).... they close down the factories and moved them to China to make more profit for themselves ....Did they drop the prices as a result of cheaper work force???What the govnmt did for us? They signed a trade agreement with China ...Chinese companies with projects over 150mil are allowed to bring their own labour from China with Chinese wages
> 
> ...


the unions were the 1s who pushed for the pay rises, 85% of the workers actually agreed to have a lesser increase or a freeze if it meant job security but the unions pushed on, said that AP were using bullying tactics, it was all BS really, when the place shut down (totally) the unions didnt care, they still have their jobs, we had nothing, i was better off with a pay freeze and staying on $80kyr and being there a few yrs longer than getting an extra $3kyr for just over 12 more months!!
yeah, we can still live on around $20k yr, we dont drink, smoke, have boats, big new cars, huge credit card debts, massive personal loans, we own everythin bar the home and mrs car, the payments on both them are less than we would pay in rent, we live in a small area, travel at most for me for work is 20 mins and thats around 30k's, parking is cheap here, the mrs gets her entitlements for the kids which helps heaps, we buy our meat in bulk, 1/2 a beast and 2 lamb from a friend each yr, works out at around $3.50 a kg, we eat meat and veg 4 times a week, 1 night is takeaway and the rest is just leftovers, we do just fine, when we started making more $$ we still lived the same, saved the excess and invested, your circumstances are obviosly different to mine, here in tassie, things are genereally cheaper than you guys, except our fuel, whish sits around 20c more lt, if your not getting paid enough or struggle, the unions might be able to help short term, but when they start asking too much and it backfires, you will know wat im on about, in the meantime, its just budget budget budget, my mrs is awesome at budgeting, 
the most simplest thing which will not save you direct $$, but will save massive amounts of $$ in long run, put your paycheck into your homeloan, even for just a few days or a week, then redraw wat you need, leave the rest in loan, it will build up and you will be paying heaps less interest on your home, when it starts getting into a few thousand $$, instead of the tax man taking a % of the interest it gets in a savings account (maybe 2% if lucky), he cant touch wat youve got in loan, and it saves you around 4%!!
get rid of personal loans, cards and car loans, remortgage and get lesser interest rate and just the 1 repayment, can save heaps, take a coffee from home instead of buyin 1 on the way,
i prob sound like your parents (maybe old enough too) but more $$ isnt always the answer, i know friends of mine who left here with a $75k mortgage (on a home worth around $220k and getting $200p/w in rental income) and combined earnings of over $100k, went to W.A, now earning combined of around $300kyr, and still live week to week, they just waste sooo much $$!! more money just made them selfish!!
learn to live happily with wat you get now, any extra is just a bonus mate and even then, put it away for a rainy day
them extra union fees add up over time, $10p/w = $520yr, theres your rego or car insurance, you dont need to be in a union to work, ive heard of commercial sites in Vic and Nsw where ppl have been kicked off jobsites cause they arent in the union WTF, thats communism (well maybe not, but def not wat should go on in our "free" country), i was working alongside non union workers who were still getting all the same EBA entitlements as i was, so even not being in the union, you still get the same $$$$, maybe not the job security, but if your dismissed unfairly, let the courts handle it, same ****, legal aid pays for it and you save on union fees each yr!!
this is just my own (well, alot of others who i talk to on jobsites here in Tassie where union is a swear word) opinion and im speaking from my own personal experiences, 
krem


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

A worker is entitled to the value they add to a product. If the employer is paying less than the value the worker adds, a union can help ensure that the employer pays the fairest wage. If the union demands more in wages from an employer than the value added by the workers, then either the firm must raise it's prices which decreases demand for the product. Which decreases demand for labor. Or the employer must get rid of all but the most productive employees. Or the firm must go out of business. Or the firm must go to where labor is cheaper. If everybody gets a raise and prices go up by the same amount, then nobody really got a raise.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

If business owners get together and raise costs of products and services it's conspiracy.
If union workers do it, it's perfectly fine.


----------



## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

krem said:


> the unions were the 1s who pushed for the pay rises, 85% of the workers actually agreed to have a lesser increase or a freeze if it meant job security but the unions pushed on, said that AP were using bullying tactics, it was all BS really, when the place shut down (totally) the unions didnt care, they still have their jobs, we had nothing, i was better off with a pay freeze and staying on $80kyr and being there a few yrs longer than getting an extra $3kyr for just over 12 more months!!
> yeah, we can still live on around $20k yr, we dont drink, smoke, have boats, big new cars, huge credit card debts, massive personal loans, we own everythin bar the home and mrs car, the payments on both them are less than we would pay in rent, we live in a small area, travel at most for me for work is 20 mins and thats around 30k's, parking is cheap here, the mrs gets her entitlements for the kids which helps heaps, we buy our meat in bulk, 1/2 a beast and 2 lamb from a friend each yr, works out at around $3.50 a kg, we eat meat and veg 4 times a week, 1 night is takeaway and the rest is just leftovers, we do just fine, when we started making more $$ we still lived the same, saved the excess and invested, your circumstances are obviosly different to mine, here in tassie, things are genereally cheaper than you guys, except our fuel, whish sits around 20c more lt, if your not getting paid enough or struggle, the unions might be able to help short term, but when they start asking too much and it backfires, you will know wat im on about, in the meantime, its just budget budget budget, my mrs is awesome at budgeting,
> the most simplest thing which will not save you direct $$, but will save massive amounts of $$ in long run, put your paycheck into your homeloan, even for just a few days or a week, then redraw wat you need, leave the rest in loan, it will build up and you will be paying heaps less interest on your home, when it starts getting into a few thousand $$, instead of the tax man taking a % of the interest it gets in a savings account (maybe 2% if lucky), he cant touch wat youve got in loan, and it saves you around 4%!!
> get rid of personal loans, cards and car loans, remortgage and get lesser interest rate and just the 1 repayment, can save heaps, take a coffee from home instead of buyin 1 on the way,
> ...


Hense why i am looking to tassie.....simpler life simpler everything i just baught a house there 1 week ago havent settlement yet got to also leave my tenant who pays $265 a week and double my mortgage there until jan 18 mins out of hobart 4 bedrooms 700sqm block 148k i physically cant afford melbourne trying to build a business with 3 kids at 25 while being the only 1 working so 
Btw the cheapest house in melbourne metro us frankston north with a figure of $320k same blocks same rental return melbourne is out of grips for me i want a country life again i grew up in ballarat victoria sure we drank piss at 13 and brawlled like hell but it made me who i am today......a real man


----------



## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Btw 20 mins out of city in melbourne houses start at 600k btw krem


----------



## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

embella plaster said:


> Btw 20 mins out of city in melbourne houses start at 600k btw krem


a unit was sold in avondale heights on my str with over 800k.....stupid people or crazy prices .....who knows.....that's Krem doesn't understand it's not possible to afford life with 20k


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> If business owners get together and raise costs of products and services it's conspiracy.
> If union workers do it, it's perfectly fine.


Actually, it's called collusion. But I get your point.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> Actually, it's called collusion. But I get your point.


 Collective bargaining and collusion are 2 completely different things. Unions negotiate with employers or their associations for the betterment of all concerned. Why would a union want a company to go out of business? Trust me, a union drywall contractor make quite a bit of money. My last boss still paid his union dues and paid cash for a house as a rental every year for his retirement. Trophy wife and a 7000 sq ft with a $800 a month power bill in Novato, CA.
How about those nationwide companies like KHSS that are listed on the New York stock exchange? Do you think they're making money? There's a much bigger world out there than I think some of you realize. I've run 30 guys on one job Time and Material.

All the rhetoric will not justify misclassification of employees as independent contractor. I'll stand behind any working man no matter union or not but I'll not stand by and watch the trade go in the toilet because big business figured a way to break down the trade and costs.

Being on this board has opened my eyes to how wide spread this has become. If you think for one minute some rich guy has your best interest at heart you'd better think again. The working class needs more representation and not less.


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

A couple years back when business was starting to boom again their were some union guys going job to job trying to get the DWCs in trouble with pay scales and what not. They were specifically going after a couple big dog drywall companies. I found that odd.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

"Why would a union want a company to go out of business? " I dunno. But they tried and darn near did it to do it to GM and Chrysler. But for the bailout.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

I think if union workers would _*put their money where their mouth is*_, by buying union built homes they might be able to create more union jobs. This would be to the betterment all parties involved. They should support the union since the union provided so much for them. Instead of disparaging the tradesmen which they hire to build their homes.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

chris said:


> A couple years back when business was starting to boom again their were some union guys going job to job trying to get the DWCs in trouble with pay scales and what not. They were specifically going after a couple big dog drywall companies. I found that odd.


 My brother brags that Idaho is the lowest wage state in the West to build in. He builds big state funded projects for Petra Inc. Unions are evil and you don't want to make more money anyway?


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

MrWillys said:


> My brother brags that Idaho is the lowest wage state in the West to build in. He builds big state funded projects for Petra Inc. Unions are evil and you don't want to make more money anyway?


That's why we can vote with our feet. (As well as with our wallets) If you don't like one state, go to another.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> That's why we can vote with our feet. (As well as with our wallets) If you don't like one state, go to another.


 I would imagine you could work union in Denver? I know there's 1000 members here in Reno in the Carpenters. Bridge and heavy highway is typically union out West. You need trained people to perform work peoples lives depend on.
Nothing wrong with being a one horse outfit in small town either. I've always admired you guys and the independence you have. As long as you make a living and provide for your family bully for you. Trade unions are a good thing and allow use to perpetuate the crafts.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

MrWillys said:


> I would imagine you could work union in Denver? I know there's 1000 members here in Reno in the Carpenters. Bridge and heavy highway is typically union out West. You need trained people to perform work peoples lives depend on.
> Nothing wrong with being a one horse outfit in small town either. I've always admired you guys and the independence you have. As long as you make a living and provide for your family bully for you. Trade unions are a good thing and allow use to perpetuate the crafts.


Typically a one horse show works (is efficient) for very small projects during times when demand is low. A single unit, a remodel, patching, etc.. We run about 25 guys during the busy season. I used to be in the painters union. There were a few good guys. But at the time it seemed like the workmanship of the union guys was below most of the non union. And at the time, union scale was lower than non union scale. That being because in Colorado the union scale was based on Denver pay scale. The Central mountains were always from half again more, to double, Denver scale. Sometimes triple Denver scale. In the interim, we have had massive illegal immigration. Which has flooded the area with semi skilled workers. At the same time the economy tanked. It is just starting to come back. I feel like I experience a sort of golden age in the eighties, nineties and early 2000's. Probably won't see that here again. Who knows. 
" Trade unions are a good thing and allow use to perpetuate the crafts." I can't disagree there. They serve a purpose.


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

MrWillys said:


> My brother brags that Idaho is the lowest wage state in the West to build in. He builds big state funded projects for Petra Inc. Unions are evil and you don't want to make more money anyway?


 I dont think Idaho has any union drywallers, it doesnt exist in this state


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Superior Interiors Boise, C&H Construction Group Idaho Falls, Forte construction Services Eagle, MTM Drywall and Specialties Eagle, new Space Construction Boise, pacific Steel & Gypsum and Wolverine Canyon Construction in Firth.

I found these here:

http://www.nwcarpenters.org/


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Ive never heard of them, like you said they do the big ones and nothing else. They keeping busy?


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

I have no clue Chris. I just know the Carpenters is in 50 states and Canada to the Best of my knowledge.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Union workers WORK? :blink:


When the **** did this happen?


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

moore said:


> Union workers WORK? :blink:
> 
> 
> When the **** did this happen?


It's either work or don't get paid considering it was piecework. It's similar to misclassification of employees as independent contractor only we pay our taxes.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

MrWillys said:


> It's either work or don't get paid considering it was piecework. It's similar to misclassification of employees as independent contractor only we pay our taxes.


That is a good point. A lot of illegal subcontractors around here seem to be not only bidding things to cheaply to honestly complete the project. They are also avoiding proper insurance and taxes. And the contractor who tries to do things on the up and up, makes weekly tax deposits on employees, etc., looks like a chump who is leaving money on the table. But if you own property and cheat, that property can be taken from you. If you own nothing, (as with many illegals) nothing an be taken from you. And for the other point, most union jobs I have worked on have a foreman who is doing a weekly or even daily "rough jobcosting" to make sure productivity is within the budget.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> That is a good point. A lot of illegal subcontractors around here seem to be not only bidding things to cheaply to honestly complete the project. They are also avoiding proper insurance and taxes. And the contractor who tries to do things on the up and up, makes weekly tax deposits on employees, etc., looks like a chump who is leaving money on the table. But if you own property and cheat, that property can be taken from you. If you own nothing, (as with many illegals) nothing an be taken from you. And for the other point, most union jobs I have worked on have a foreman who is doing a weekly or even daily "rough jobcosting" to make sure productivity is within the budget.


Whether Union or not this is a problem in our society. The Department of Labor has estimated the cost of this illegal activity at 5 to 6 billion annually. We lose out in tax dollars, Social Security payments and insurance costs are higher for the honest employer.

The trucking industry used owner operator to break the Teamsters. Fed Ex in Kansas just got busted for paying their drivers as independent contractors. If you want to claim you're a contractor then you have employees.

Years ago in the company I grew up in we could bank hours. meaning if I worked 40 I could draw 32 and in pencil on the back of my check it would show my banked dollars. It wasn't until many years later I realized they got out of paying my benefits for those hours when I cashed this out.

Yes, even union companies figure out ways to cheat the working guy. I should add that back when I started we got 6 to 7 cents a foot but that was plus benefits. I later realized the benefits were really worth a fortune.


----------



## krem (Mar 20, 2016)

keke said:


> a unit was sold in avondale heights on my str with over 800k.....stupid people or crazy prices .....who knows.....that's Krem doesn't understand it's not possible to afford life with 20k


ok, after staying in melb since wed with my family, i will take a back step for a second, but only for a second, lol
**** is dear as poison there, the dfo's arent any cheaper than wat we have here in tassie, food is same prices, house prices are sky high and rent would be too, 
a family holiday for the 6 of us (and a guest, so 7 all up, 4 classed as adults and 2 kids) in elcheapo acc, cost us a fortune, miki cards, trains, trams and stuff, all adds up, so i can sympathise a little on your living costs, so yeah im out of touch on that side, 
BUT
you need to understand, ive been thru it 3 times in 18yrs, unions always pushing for huge increases in pay worked in the short term, but not in long term, Devonport )where i live) has a population of around 30,000, out of that 30,000, in the 3 factories i worked in, employed around 700 ppl, quite a large % of our pop, all got good pay, when the last factory shut down, alot of ppl who i worked with nearly went bankrupt, alot of small business shut down as a result of the spending that stopped, so add another 100 jobs to the list, and it just snowballed, 
same in burnie (35 mins away) where the other paper mill was located (there were 2 mills owned by AP), there were 300 jobs lost there and maybe another 100 in small business, CAT and the unions had a very public EBA around 18months ago, unions won, now CAT is in the process of sending all its work over to Thailand cause of labour costs are too high here, unions asked the government to prop CAT up for short term, short story = didnt work out, so another 150-200 jobs out the door and snowballing rather rapidly.
Unions here have too much power, its plain and simple, they treat us like sheep, give the promise of a bit greener pasture and were in, but greener pasture not there forever.
i love it here in Tassie, i love promoting Tassie, its a great place, things are cheaper, good money to be earnt, weather is **** tho, and every1 know your undie color, but we can live on bugger all, weve lived on around 20k a yr for a few yrs, just fine!!
embella has right idea, but dont all you buggers come here taking our work, lol, its a small place, and union here on most sites (non commercial) is a swear word!!
krem


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

krem said:


> ok, after staying in melb since wed with my family, i will take a back step for a second, but only for a second, lol
> **** is dear as poison there, the dfo's arent any cheaper than wat we have here in tassie, food is same prices, house prices are sky high and rent would be too,
> a family holiday for the 6 of us (and a guest, so 7 all up, 4 classed as adults and 2 kids) in elcheapo acc, cost us a fortune, miki cards, trains, trams and stuff, all adds up, so i can sympathise a little on your living costs, so yeah im out of touch on that side,
> BUT
> ...


They work the same here.. wasted government money.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

I have an uncle who was a Teamster driver his whole life, they took part of his pension. He had to keep driving after retirement. 
Then I got a friend who retired a Ironworkers shop steward. He fought long and hard in court to get his pension. 
Some guys get the shaft.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> I have an uncle who was a Teamster driver his whole life, they took part of his pension. He had to keep driving after retirement.
> Then I got a friend who retired a Ironworkers shop steward. He fought long and hard in court to get his pension.
> Some guys get the shaft.


I hear Jimmy Hoffa never got his teamster pension either.


----------



## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

krem said:


> ok, after staying in melb since wed with my family, i will take a back step for a second, but only for a second, lol
> **** is dear as poison there, the dfo's arent any cheaper than wat we have here in tassie, food is same prices, house prices are sky high and rent would be too,
> a family holiday for the 6 of us (and a guest, so 7 all up, 4 classed as adults and 2 kids) in elcheapo acc, cost us a fortune, miki cards, trains, trams and stuff, all adds up, so i can sympathise a little on your living costs, so yeah im out of touch on that side,
> BUT
> ...


 ....and you missed the traffic (lucky you).... when you do 10- 20 kms in 2 hrs .... you feel that in your pocket too

Anyway don't get me wrong... I'm against Union, they're just a bunch of corrupt people, who doesn't know that?.... but I agree with their slogan

but can't tell me get a lower salary and live well when all the prices are going up a simple example: barrel of oil is $43.44 ("Oil prices also fell overnight, as Canadian fires moved away from key processing facilities.

The key Brent futures price was back down to $US43.44 a barrel.

Australia's oil and gas producers followed, with Woodside off 3 per cent to $26.52, Oil Search and Origin also down around 3 per cent and Santos off around 4 per cent.") and at the pump the petrol went up 20 c this weekend only ... how's that right? 

... it's all government's fault... you need to do more to keep the jobs in OZ ... not short term incentives on taxpayer's money when big companies transfer the money in offshore paradises to avoid tax


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Without getting to specifics, I just want to say that it is OK to be an angry middle aged man and complain this year. This is the year of the grumpy man. Complaining is one of my favorite parts about drywalling. So all in all I am pretty happy.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

MrWillys said:


> My apologies for the subject matter getting a little deep.
> 
> While institutionalism may have helped to bring about unions it is not the basis. Veblen was not a socialist but rather explained it and predicted its rise in the US. In fact, he was quite against it and was more of a precursor to Ayn Rand. He was also a contributor to America's first Red Scare where a campaign demonizes a portion of society to gain allegiance to their cause. This occurred shortly after WW1 where Socialists and Communist leaning people were labeled as evil to regain support for the 1% elitist. It occurred again in the 50's with McCarthyism, and is the same campaign tactic being used today by Trump.
> 
> ...


deep or did ya mean Jeep?


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

chris said:


> A couple years back when business was starting to boom again their were some union guys going job to job trying to get the DWCs in trouble with pay scales and what not. They were specifically going after a couple big dog drywall companies. I found that odd.


Thats the way


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

moore said:


> Union workers WORK? :blink:
> 
> 
> When the **** did this happen?


hey moore, go jog around your place and get some fresh air in your brain,

expect Radiation from you anyhoo:yes:


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> deep or did ya mean Jeep?


Where have you been I'm getting buried in this thread. Thank goodness unions keep non union prevailing wage jobs honest.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

MrWillys said:


> Where have you been I'm getting buried in this thread. Thank goodness unions keep non union prevailing wage jobs honest.


Dang sorry Bro, thought you were doing fine with the if ya like making less comment,

Fellas I got to fess up, like I never give out vital info so I dont bring competition,

Anyway me and 2buck were talking via PM and how we hate our job Im getting old and hating days of Drywall and Dust, Had to jump ship on some jobs, a fat woman dwc threw a fit at job not being fast, cold, I figured five it 
Mr. Moe says its been five years and no work pics, Gaz battled me DingoStyle, good guy, its what Dingos do.
Tom and TT are out for the take and who knows the next **** move, so many Jumpn around to avoid takers I figure f it, I jumped ship, sure I miss the Jeep rolln vids, Moore and his Missing in Drywall pics, Im on a new path running fast for a new ideas, just come round to see ya fellas once in awhile, too bad we caint do a beer online.


----------



## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

It sure doesn't get any easier Joe. Hope you stay well.:thumbsup:


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

if ya want an illegal removed from a job one call to the union and they show up and dust the place and dwc gets a human rights and a harbour of illegal alliens fine, one guy got 250 000 dollar fine, does he play games now?

nawww,

if dwc a clown he gets fines and court taken care of him and all ya have to say is boys, rid the clown, lawyers move for you, wanna be a gumby and shoot dice alone your choice but dont come to dwt and start sniveling, no whining and crying,

moose boy bashed unions way back, but on the phone he was sniveling being out 7 grands, there Willys that sums it up for all, 

we are talking 

UNIONSS Destroyer at your disposal, throw your weight and bring in a team to flatten out the enemy

Turning on the heat, Uncle Sams Touch,


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

Unions are on the way out out out.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> Unions are on the way out out out.


Maybe you can explain that to Bernie Sanders supporters?


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

MrWillys said:


> Maybe you can explain that to Bernie Sanders supporters?


Those three guys ?:blink:


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

MrWillys said:


> Maybe you can explain that to Bernie Sanders supporters?



I'll try 

All these union jobs you once heard of have been shipped overseas and are now gone.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> I'll try
> 
> All these union jobs you once heard of have been shipped overseas and are now gone.


This is the rhetoric the 1% wants you to believe. The real truth is that non-union jobs were outsourced in the same numbers as union jobs. How can modern countries compete with labor that is willing to work for pennies on the dollar. This is just another of many anti union slogans like Moore telling me I was a lazy worker. Reality is he couldn't cut it as a Union hangar where I'm from and would be signing into the Painters and Allied trades as a finisher. Still love ya Rick!


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

My grandpa wanted me to get a job for Bethlehem Steel like many family and friends did.
They were starting to fail until I got out of school in '87.
We had a load of textile and garment industry jobs in my hometown, as well as supporting industries. Both union and nonunion, there all gone since NAFTA.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

It's the 1/10 of 1%, of Democrats that sold out the working man's benefits.

I remember back in the 80s when everything around here (Michigan) was mostly union. Good times. Then by the turn of the century you could tell things were changing shops were closing, plants were moving. Full-time union employees were being replaced with part time temporary help. Now, today, 2016 Michigan is a right to work state. 

My opinion is the unions got too big and became corrupt. No difference then politics. Money is power. And power corrupts.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Lt. Governor Mike Stack was making claims he would turn the state labor to all union if he and Gov Wolf were elected. What a blow hard.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> It's the 1/10 of 1%, of Democrats that sold out the working man's benefits.
> 
> I remember back in the 80s when everything around here (Michigan) was mostly union. Good times. Then by the turn of the century you could tell things were changing shops were closing, plants were moving. Full-time union employees were being replaced with part time temporary help. Now, today, 2016 Michigan is a right to work state.
> 
> My opinion is the unions got too big and became corrupt. No difference then politics. Money is power. And power corrupts.


I attribute it more to Reagan's tax breaks. We went from 70% to 28% that made hoarding wealth all the fashion. Political parties had little to do with it other than GOP clearly supports the 1% and so does the Left but they allow a few pennies for the working class. Union jobs as well as non union got shipped overseas where labor is a fraction of the cost. blaming unions for globalization is like blaming a political party for your wife getting pregnant.

The same can be said that lowering taxes for the top actually shifted the burden on to the middle class. My wife and I made well over a 100k a year and paid dearly for it. However, it did give us more at end game. we've taken jobs away starting in inner cities like the GM plant that was closed in LA or the Ford and GM plants in the SF bay area and all the AC Delco non union jobs that left in 08.

Again, blaming globalization on a political party or unions is a fools game and best left to party shills. Unions support working class people who sweat for a living and if you're against them then you've been duped.

Will you be the first to say you want less?


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

"Will you be the first to say you want less? " Nobody wants less. But if everybody wants to earn more than the value they add, all you do is inflate prices. We can't all consume more than we create. And as for ultra high rates of taxation, it generates less revenue for the government than lower rates of taxation. You create a great incentive for tax shelters and for sending money away to other, more tax friendly countries. We have that now with corporate our tax rates higher in the USA than in many other countries. Capital flight.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

The Unions were there to protect workers from corporate greed. The Unions let the people down. Got your vote then sold you out. The light that burns twice as bright only burns half as long. I'm sure it was a good idea Until greed got in the way.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> The Unions were there to protect workers from corporate greed. The Unions let the people down. Got your vote then sold you out. The light that burns twice as bright only burns half as long. I'm sure it was a good idea Until greed got in the way.


Explain to me again what is wrong with greed? I missed that argument.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

endo_alley said:


> Explain to me again what is wrong with greed? I missed that argument.




I was referring to this. 

https://youtu.be/d1BFELnVc2E


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> I was referring to this.
> 
> https://youtu.be/d1BFELnVc2E


I spose that if the people in Pakistan or Argentina were starving to death due to know money, Dylan would be complaining about that too. At least he is still getting rich.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

endo_alley said:


> I spose that if the people in Pakistan or Argentina were starving to death due to know money, Dylan would be complaining about that too. At least he is still getting rich.



It is a social/culture paradox. When we send jobs overseas we are helping out some of the poorest people in the world.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Oops. I meant "no money" not "know money" I prefer "now money".


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

You should know that when I taught apprenticeship I got to see some of the union politics and backstabbing that goes on. In the end though I just ask myself if I was better off or not being union. I will tell that when a student you taught can cut a set off stairs or understand how to frame a roof and they appreciate what you taught them it was cool. I quit in 2007 to go back in the field which I later somewhat regretted when the economy crashed. I even built a website for extra credit that lead them up to trig calculations I was told I couldn't use because it wasn't official curriculum. That type of pettiness lead to me leaving.

On the other hand I admire any man that raises his family and works to support them. I'm a very mechanical person and the opposite of Brian and his drywall art. I hope we see a resurgence of unionism in the country and the working class fight to rebuild the middle class.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

MrWillys said:


> You should know that when I taught apprenticeship I got to see some of the union politics and backstabbing that goes on. In the end though I just ask myself if I was better off or not being union. I will tell that when a student you taught can cut a set off stairs or understand how to frame a roof and they appreciate what you taught them it was cool. I quit in 2007 to go back in the field which I later somewhat regretted when the economy crashed. I even built a website for extra credit that lead them up to trig calculations I was told I couldn't use because it wasn't official curriculum. That type of pettiness lead to me leaving.
> 
> On the other hand I admire any man that raises his family and works to support them. I'm a very mechanical person and the opposite of Brian and his drywall art. I hope we see a resurgence of unionism in the country and the working class fight to rebuild the middle class.


That is good when someone has a way of passing on the knowledge of the trade to a new generation of workers. You are really improving a person's life when you teach them a trade properly. I've met guys who didn't do particularly well at learning in a school classroom setting. But show them that a new idea or skill will earn them money immediately and you have their full attention. That is why I am not so quick to bad mouth greed. " I even built a website for extra credit that lead them up to trig calculations I was told I couldn't use because it wasn't official curriculum." That is unbelievable when people in power don't want their underlings to learn too much. How can any knowledge be bad? Especially mathematics and logical thinking. Keep m in their place I guess.


----------



## ashleygoode (May 26, 2016)

I just want to comment on the first part of what you said as far as taking someone and teaching them I just turned 45 Monday I'm a female I have children some grown some still at home but I'm a single mom and he took me under his wing and he showed me how to do this and now I'm not setting the world on fire but I work everyday and I can support my family a little bit more than minimum wage and the self-esteem that comes with this being a female somewhat attractive in this business everybody looks at you like your a dumb blonde so when you get up there and you do your s*** they look at you differently and you feel it and it's a sense of pride and I owe it all to him and a lot of hard work on my part a lot of wearing mud everyday.. without him taking the time and teaching me and the patience all his little tricks and things he's learned and all of his years he was retired I wouldn't be where I am today I don't know where I would be the stars in your crown if you can find it in your heart and have the time to take someone and teach them something... teach a man to fish


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Happy 45th Ashley. Are you doing just hand finishing or running some tools?


----------



## ashleygoode (May 26, 2016)

Mostly by hand I did just get a Porter cable wall sander and a Graco Texsprayer couple of spray rigs..it's growing slowly..paid by sweat..and an achy body..🙄


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

MrWillys said:


> This is the rhetoric the 1% wants you to believe. The real truth is that non-union jobs were outsourced in the same numbers as union jobs. How can modern countries compete with labor that is willing to work for pennies on the dollar. This is just another of many anti union slogans like Moore telling me I was a lazy worker. Reality is he couldn't cut it as a Union hangar where I'm from and would be signing into the Painters and Allied trades as a finisher. Still love ya Rick!


Thats sh*t, city workers are slackers, the rest of us have to perform as the contractor pays 17% more on top of our wage for Hollerday, Pension and Union Disbursements:yes:


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

We run Union they can Stay in the Stupid Fuk club and snivel:stupid: for pesos and Tacos,


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> We run Union they can Stay in the Stupid Fuk club and snivel:stupid: for pesos and Tacos,


I didn't know you were Union Joe! :blink: That explains a lot!! :whistling2:


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Thats sh*t, city workers are slackers, the rest of us have to perform as the contractor pays 17% more on top of our wage for Hollerday, Pension and Union Disbursements:yes:


Yep, we billed $90 an hour per man for t&m work. I'm paying a guy that much he better get it on or he's getting 2 checks. All one has to do is look to right to starve states to see were you're better off. The quality of construction is lower as well due to lack of training.


----------



## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

MrWillys said:


> Yep, we billed $90 an hour per man for t&m work. I'm paying a guy that much he better get it on or he's getting 2 checks. All one has to do is look to right to starve states to see were you're better off. The quality of construction is lower as well due to lack of training.


Back when I was in the painter's union, I didn't think the union trained finishers were as good as the non union finishers. It may be a different story nowadays. The union frowned on bazookas and mechanical tools. We were asked to use hawk and trowel. If you couldn't manage a trowel a broad knife was the next best. I enjoyed finishing that way. But whenever we got behind, the foreman would ask me to pull out the bazooka for a few days with a couple of tape wipers and get more production done. Fill coat with a ten inch box, and get a quick finish coat over it with trowel or broad knife before anybody new any better. $90.00 per hour is nice work if you can get it. But outside of government contracts I imagine most general contractors would shop around for a little better price.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

endo_alley said:


> Back when I was in the painter's union, I didn't think the union trained finishers were as good as the non union finishers. It may be a different story nowadays. The union frowned on bazookas and mechanical tools. We were asked to use hawk and trowel. If you couldn't manage a trowel a broad knife was the next best. I enjoyed finishing that way. But whenever we got behind, the foreman would ask me to pull out the bazooka for a few days with a couple of tape wipers and get more production done. Fill coat with a ten inch box, and get a quick finish coat over it with trowel or broad knife before anybody new any better. $90.00 per hour is nice work if you can get it. But outside of government contracts I imagine most general contractors would shop around for a little better price.


commercial work is Hand slam, box and hand finish,
Res is use what ya can, no cheating like Moore and use Mexicans,

Moore at work


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

All I will say on the matter is, watch out for the government workers when it deals with Unions.

Average person (not family) makes about 30,000 to 40,000 a year here in Banada. Average Government worker, and I'm talking teachers, doctors, cops, firemen to the guy that picks up your trash, make well over a $100,000 a year, with a very excellent pension. I hope I dont have to explain why this is bad.:whistling2:

Union has been singled out to be a bad word,since it was the working slobs term, blue collar labourer, who would BACK IN GOOD OLD DAYS, bargain as a collective, to get better pay, 40 hour work week, over time, better safety,,, they coined the phrase "the work sucks, but the pay is good.,,,, But words like association,syndicate,corporation,guild,alliance, coalition,order, confederation, federation, smith, and so on dont get the same rap like the word union does (except corporations maybe)Their collectives with goals too. 

As to drywall trades, they seem to do better in larger markets. I work in a mid size/ small market area.The PW union rate, is written in stone in the DWC opinions, so it seems to act more like a minimum wage where I live. Well a large market like Toronto, its a crime almost, to work for rate. (means economy has crashed or something)

As to me, thats why Im here, looking for pics to advertise with.(might steal some of your guys pics :whistling2 It's one part Union and getting older. Union was good for us at first, even DWC's had a love hate with them. Hated sharing some of their wealth, but it was in their best interest to hire/keep the best workers etc.

Bottom line, weather union or not, people got to get back to " A fair days work, for a fair days wage" Too much greed out there these days


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

How ya been 2buck?
Welcome back. Are you gonna hang around for awhile?


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> Back when I was in the painter's union, I didn't think the union trained finishers were as good as the non union finishers. It may be a different story nowadays. The union frowned on bazookas and mechanical tools. We were asked to use hawk and trowel. If you couldn't manage a trowel a broad knife was the next best. I enjoyed finishing that way. But whenever we got behind, the foreman would ask me to pull out the bazooka for a few days with a couple of tape wipers and get more production done. Fill coat with a ten inch box, and get a quick finish coat over it with trowel or broad knife before anybody new any better. $90.00 per hour is nice work if you can get it. But outside of government contracts I imagine most general contractors would shop around for a little better price.


 A majority of what I did was private but I did work on a few schools. As for tools we were using them in the 60's and I've never seen a guy use a hawk and trowel. My brother was a gun man in his 20's and could go home if he strung and wiped 10 500' rolls. Finishers got paid per coat on production tracts. The spray man was an hourly guy. If I had to call the hall for people I'd hire 6 and have 4 checks by noon.


----------

