# what is acceptable ?



## zack

Hi guys,
I got a job 15000sf so I needed a man power. I hired a guy and he got another 2 guys working for him. We start hanging and those guys leave 1/2" gaps. I said these one it is ok but from now on I don't want anything bigger than 1/4", 3/8". They say " you have to learn how to go or you not going to make any money. Than we start taping and I said I want every thing bigger then 1/8 3/6" pre fill with durabond and that say "we don't do that we just flat tape gaps like that and only 1/2" we pre fill. Am I picky ?
Some places there are gaps 1/2" between ceiling and wall that means ceiling rock was 1" short !!! Every second outlet needs patching. I am carpenter working mostly for bigger companies but I do drywall and finish 
sometimes too but I don't consider myself professional drywall company. They do. They do only drywall. Again am I picky or what?


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## moore

Zack I just finished up a little over 10,000 board ft of rock ,and i only patched 1 box.....No your not too picky..


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## PrecisionTaping

I agree with Moore.
Pictures would help but if they're as bad as they sound than ya...no good.


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## Mudshark

Zack, if you hired them and you wanted it done that way then you need to be assertive and let them know who the boss is. You are not unreasonable in asking for the prefilling.


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## 2buckcanuck

Mudshark said:


> Zack, if you hired them and you wanted it done that way then you need to be assertive and let them know who the boss is. You are not unreasonable in asking for the prefilling.


Dear God , this hurts, half to agree with the Vancouver Canucks fan.:jester:

You hired them, you are the boss, you half to put your foot down

next time, post some pics or a vid, we will be happy to give our opinions...... trust me:whistling2:


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## zack

ok. I have to say something in their defense. They said that gaps up to 1/2" they flat tape.
is that ok to do? I thing the point of pre fill with durabond is that it wan't shrink and regular mud will which will result in cracks right?


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## 2buckcanuck

zack said:


> ok. I have to say something in their defense. They said that gaps up to 1/2" they flat tape.
> is that ok to do? I thing the point of pre fill with durabond is that it wan't shrink and regular mud will which will result in cracks right?


Around these parts, no excuse for a gap in a flat, angle's....... wee bit of lee way, they still want them tight, but most tapers and DWC understand not all houses are perfect in being square. But I can say a half inch is not acceptable, very bad would be 1/4" to 3/8". a 1/8" is nothing to nag at


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## chris

sounds like youd better caulk the angles if its too late to prefil with hotmud. 1/2" will more than likely crack. One would think it might be hard to get a good screw in that.. or nail:blink:


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## drywall guy158

1/2" is o.k.!! guess i'm doing it wrong ...i try for nothing more than 1/8"


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## zack

2buckcanuck said:


> Around these parts, no excuse for a gap in a flat, angle's....... wee bit of lee way, they still want them tight, but most tapers and DWC understand not all houses are perfect in being square. But I can say a half inch is not acceptable, very bad would be 1/4" to 3/8". a 1/8" is nothing to nag at


I don't know if you understood me (probably my english-polish is my first language) they "flat tape it" inside corner first (gaps up to 1/2") wipe it down and right after they install tape in the corner.


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## Mudshark

zack said:


> I don't know if you understood me (probably my english-polish is my first language) they "flat tape it" inside corner first (gaps up to 1/2") wipe it down and right after they install tape in the corner.


I think you are referring to double taping. Sure it can be done but prefilling is better.:whistling2:


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## zack

Yes double taping, thank you. They flat tape inside corner first and then install corner or install corner twice. I told them that I prefer pre fill and they said it takes to much time. So I said then I am not going to let that happen so he said if I want I can start pre fill upstairs and they will continue hanging downstairs, I said ok. But now he is telling me that is taking to long. I said but it is done right and it is ready for taping. He is keep telling me that drywall cracks no matter what because house moves (wood framing) and I fill like it is just blaming something else for not doing the job right.


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## moore

zack said:


> ok. I have to say something in their defense. They said that gaps up to 1/2" they flat tape.
> is that ok to do? I thing the point of pre fill with durabond is that it wan't shrink and regular mud will which will result in cracks right?


 Unless the frame is really,really bad ..There should be no flat taping in the angles.


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## zack

And the point is that the job is $15500 I am paying him $10,000 and looks like we will be done in 3 weeks total (hanging,finishing and priming) so I ask him if he is happy with the money he is going to make and he said yes. After paying his guys he still probably going to make $1800/week.
So I think I am fair. They don't have any automatic tools. I do have flushers, boxes and taping box but they don't like them too. It just looks like we have totally different ways of doing drywall. I don't know I guess I am not happy because I was expecting something more from a crew who do drywall for a living. 

-gaps in hanging 
-outlets 
-no tools accept two 4' step ladders and 3 dewalt guns and router zip with the blade form the time when Michael Jekson was still white
-not happy about using automatic taping tools


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## moore

zack said:


> Yes double taping, thank you. They flat tape inside corner first and then install corner or install corner twice. I told them that I prefer pre fill and they said it takes to much time. So I said then I am not going to let that happen so he said if I want I can start pre fill upstairs and they will continue hanging downstairs, I said ok. But now he is telling me that is taking to long. I said but it is done right and it is ready for taping. He is keep telling me that drywall cracks no matter what because house moves (wood framing) and I fill like it is just blaming something else for not doing the job right.


 LORD. You found some real winners there Zack!


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## zack

It is new house. Framing it is very, good not easiest house to hang and finish but still . I will put some pics tomorrow.


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## Mudshark

Ask yourself this: If there are problems down the road, who will the owner come after, you or them? Sounds like they are just looking for the fastest buck and get out of there. You should insist it is done right and you want it prefilled.


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## zack

He is a nice guy I like him. He likes to keep the job site clean, make sure all doors are closed before we live, VERY hard worker it just seems like our views of how to build and run a business are totally different. One of his guys left because he didn't like my taping sequence. I like to do screws first they like to do them last. So his guy get upset and left.


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## zack

Mudshark said:


> Ask yourself this: If there are problems down the road, who will the owner come after, you or them? Sounds like they are just looking for the fastest buck and get out of there. You should insist it is done right and you want it prefilled.


That it is exactly what I told him and he said ok but he is keep saying that if something cracks within a year we will have to go back and fix it anyway and I said yes but I want to do every thing in my power so I don't have to do this. I don't want to go back. I don't want to fix staff and work around furniture and I don't want have cracks at all not in a year not in 5.
This is probably $2,000,000 house by time is all set and done but even if it will be $200,000 ranch it still deserved good job. People paying us for it. The point I am trying to make is if it is very expensive house the furniture will probably match the house.


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## 2buckcanuck

zack said:


> He is a nice guy I like him. He likes to keep the job site clean, make sure all doors are closed before we live, VERY hard worker it just seems like our views of how to build and run a business are totally different. One of his guys left because he didn't like my taping sequence. I like to do screws first they like to do them last. So his guy get upset and left.


What, I do screws 1st, well ok, my labourer does, but still

Tapers boss of the rocker, and if your tape job sucks, then a painter becomes a boss over you,,, I hope you know what I mean by that


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## 2buckcanuck

Zack

did you check out the job Sir mudslingr da man put up http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/video-tours-dwt-members-jobs-2837/index8/ post #159

does your drywall work and mudding look like that, if not,,,,,,, well


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## cdwoodcox

zack said:


> Hi guys,
> I got a job 15000sf so I needed a man power. I hired a guy and he got another 2 guys working for him. We start hanging and those guys leave 1/2" gaps. I said these one it is ok but from now on I don't want anything bigger than 1/4", 3/8". They say " you have to learn how to go or you not going to make any money. Than we start taping and I said I want every thing bigger then 1/8 3/6" pre fill with durabond and that say "we don't do that we just flat tape gaps like that and only 1/2" we pre fill. Am I picky ?
> Some places there are gaps 1/2" between ceiling and wall that means ceiling rock was 1" short !!! Every second outlet needs patching. I am carpenter working mostly for bigger companies but I do drywall and finish
> sometimes too but I don't consider myself professional drywall company. They do. They do only drywall. Again am I picky or what?


 Zack if I was you I would have cut ties long ago with these hacks.
Go in early tomorrow or yet today figure how much time you are going to have fixing their careless work. Figure how many hours they have total (you should have that info already) pay them $10.00 to $15.00 per hour depending on worst to best of bunch. Backcharge that price at $35.00 per hour for yourself to fix everything and make this a decent drywall job for your customer and forget these clowns.

With their attitude I might not pay them anything just kick them off the job.


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## Jason

Morons. You've got morons on your team.


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## zack




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## zack

*pics*


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## chris

do u have drywall inpections? that is not acceptible


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## zack

I told them "we got radiant heat going hear so we can keep a drywall 1" of the floor" on picture 3 you can see how tight a drywall is to the floor. Why? than the bottom gets broken. Trying to force it. Picture 1 it is a ceiling so the ceiling wallboard was short probably 1". Outlets I would say 50% of them look like on the pictures. When he told me that is taking me to long to do screws and pre fill I took him to the inside corner for 10 screws in a board 8 was sticking out. Outlets look like that because there is no time to change the blade and I bought only 2 packs of them. Blade is shut so you force it next thing you know ...ups. I told him is like a guy who is cutting a tree and he is so busy working that he has no time to sharpen a saw.


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## gotmud

Zack you are paying good money, YOU are the boss! Even if you weren't paying good money, YOU are the boss! I don't know what your local economy is like but Maybe it would not be that difficult to find guys who would do it the way you want it done. 
I would get rid of them, Its your reputation on the line.
Pay them or not, that's up to you , but send them packin!


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## super rocker

These clowns are not drywall hangers. They are handymen or carpenters or diyselfers. My god, this is inexcusable and I would have seen them hang one sheet and they would have been in their Chevette. Absolutely pathetic.:furious:


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## Philma Crevices

I get this and worse almost every job.... those pics are typical conditions for the hangers we tape behind. Commercial, always passes inspection. 

A few superintendants for the different GC's( have worked with these guys for years) have been admonishing us for being able to turn out good finished products finishing behind these hacks. Been so long fixing their chit... we just chalk it up, and on to the next one.

This thread makes me  inside. LOL 
Memebers video's here always look great.

To the topic. You are paying way too much for this quality of work. They need to adjust to your ways or hit the road. I'm sure there are plenty starving for work in your area that will give you what you require of them, for less... Get a new crew for the next one, let these guys stay at home.


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## drywall guy158

:hang: this is what you need to do to the hangers.....
correct me if i'm wrong...

you hired them into the job right ? 

so it's your name on the line not them !!:yes:
your on a train headed for a derailment.....you must maintain your own reputation...don't take this the wrong way..... "GET A BACK BONE AND SEND THEM PACKING MONDAY MORNING" you can still make things right and i'm shure the h/o etc. will understand....if you don't do anything the 2nd party's involved will wonder why you let things happen the way they are going now and will never hire you again ! you cant always be a nice guy when running a busniess.....playing hard ball is part of running a busniess.....


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## moore

Did they really have a need to pencil mark it?:blink: like Philma said,,There are plenty off good rockers out there willing to give you the job you want...Most hangers even the good ones have more down time than say a taper/hanger ..trust me.. they want your work:yes:.

Theres no sense in ALL those missed boxes,,,but with wood framing,, in there defense ..Hangers get paid to hang the sheet once. my rule is if it don't fit tight the first time I will pull it down and trim it once.If third times a charm fine..if not. it is what it is.


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## PrecisionTaping

Ya....I don't know what to say...
I've been in that situation too zack...it's hard to get rid of guys like this.
But trust me...In the end...you have to do it. There's no messing around anymore..It will come back to bite you.


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## Workaholic

I say that for what ever reason they seem to think you are equals, if I bring somebody on my job I make it clear before the job ever starts I am the boss and I expect things to be done my way, if they are not following the basic expectations give em a the money for the time they worked and send them on their way.


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## ubcguy89

We all make mistakes when hanging board, but repetitive 1/2" gaps is uncalled for. To miss outlets like you are saying is really bad. I do make mistakes, but i try to keep them to a minimum. What you are describing is uncalled for. I do not finish at all, so I can not speak from that end


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## gordie

1 box for every 1000 sq ft is all that is allowed or you have to sh#t on them. gaps happen,, rarely but they do happen like Moore said some times you just put a screw in and say your sorry:whistling2:.

if your getting gaps in more than one room these guys can't board if you board right gaps just don't happen much bro,, and there must be some guy in your area lookin to show you just what these guys can't do:thumbup:


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## SlimPickins

zack said:


> That it is exactly what I told him and he said ok but he is keep saying that if something cracks within a year we will have to go back and fix it anyway and I said yes but I want to do every thing in my power so I don't have to do this. I don't want to go back. I don't want to fix staff and work around furniture and I don't want have cracks at all not in a year not in 5.
> This is probably $2,000,000 house by time is all set and done but even if it will be $200,000 ranch it still deserved good job. People paying us for it. The point I am trying to make is if it is very expensive house the furniture will probably match the house.


It's your job, period. It gets done the way you want it to, period. Yes, they can grumble in frustration, complain all day, talk about you during lunch break, go home and complain about it to their wife at the dinner table and stew over it while they drink beer and watch reality shows......but in the end, your money means you get to tell them how you want the job done.


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## mld

SlimPickins said:


> It's your job, period. It gets done the way you want it to, period. Yes, they can grumble in frustration, complain all day, talk about you during lunch break, go home and complain about it to their wife at the dinner table and stew over it while they drink beer and watch reality shows......but in the end, your money means you get to tell them how you want the job done.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> AMEN!!!,:furious:


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## SlimPickins

You know, I just can't seem to let this one go. 

When I go to work with a friend, or another drywall contractor, or anyone for that matter.......I ask them how they want it done. If it's a taper, and I'm hanging I ask "Do you want it picture framed or do you want rips and wraps?" It's my job as a professional to meet the needs of my client, whether it be the homeowner, the architect, the builder, a friend, or another drywall contractor. 

In short, whether I disagree or not, you tell me how you want it done, that's how I'll do it (I may offer some gentle advice if the methodology goes against good practice). I've had some contractors ask me to do some lame sh!t, and I've done it........I've also said "that's fine, but I did NOT work on this job if anyone asks". That being said, I don't follow direction if there's a safety issue, but this is drywall, and that's seldom an issue.


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> You know, I just can't seem to let this one go.
> 
> When I go to work with a friend, or another drywall contractor, or anyone for that matter.......I ask them how they want it done. If it's a taper, and I'm hanging I ask "Do you want it picture framed or do you want rips and wraps?" It's my job as a professional to meet the needs of my client, whether it be the homeowner, the architect, the builder, a friend, or another drywall contractor.
> 
> In short, whether I disagree or not, you tell me how you want it done, that's how I'll do it (I may offer some gentle advice if the methodology goes against good practice). I've had some contractors ask me to do some lame sh!t, and I've done it........I've also said "that's fine, but I did NOT work on this job if anyone asks". That being said, I don't follow direction if there's a safety issue, but this is drywall, and that's seldom an issue.


Offer gentle advice







,,,, never tried that way before.....

Guess our methods are different







:whistling2:


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## gordie

SlimPickins said:


> You know, I just can't seem to let this one go.
> 
> When I go to work with a friend, or another drywall contractor, or anyone for that matter.......I ask them how they want it done. If it's a taper, and I'm hanging I ask "Do you want it picture framed or do you want rips and wraps?" It's my job as a professional to meet the needs of my client, whether it be the homeowner, the architect, the builder, a friend, or another drywall contractor.
> 
> In short, whether I disagree or not, you tell me how you want it done, that's how I'll do it (I may offer some gentle advice if the methodology goes against good practice). I've had some contractors ask me to do some lame sh!t, and I've done it........I've also said "that's fine, but I did NOT work on this job if anyone asks". That being said, I don't follow direction if there's a safety issue, but this is drywall, and that's seldom an issue.



You couldn't have said it better Slim every one wants thing a little different and it's our job to find out what it is .Sometimes your boarding for a guy tapin condo's and there like i don't care about anything but screws bro o and blown boxes just get me as many as you can blast off man.

Then your on a house thats just plain big and nice and they say picture cut everything if you need some more board just call we want it done right. well thats what they should get you need to do it all. And don;t sluff off fire code or sound measures it will screw the owner and that is bull sh#t.


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> Offer gentle advice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ,,,, never tried that way before.....
> 
> Guess our methods are different
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :whistling2:


By gentle, I mean "Dude, you're ****ing sh!ttin' me, that sh!t is ****ed up and you're ****ing crazy if you think I'm going to do _that..."_


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> By gentle, I mean "Dude, you're ****ing sh!ttin' me, that sh!t is ****ed up and you're ****ing crazy if you think I'm going to do _that..."_


On the serious side

In the drywall trade, I find it's easier for the rockers to get a long. The guy who does the cutting, calls the shots most times. Then throw in some codes, like amount of screws in sheets, where the fire code and green board goes etc.... there are more things written in stone with them.

Taping is a whole different story, they fight more:yes:

First it depends if your by the hour or PW. If it's one of those government Union shop jobs, and they say do it by hand, then I'm like sure I will take your money









If Pw and I'm just helping a guy for a house, then just do it his way, unless he wants to do something really stupid, like use a slop box when I could run the zook instead:whistling2:

If teaming up with a new guy who will be a partner for a while doing PW,then that's when the fight starts. It could be metal vs paper bead, 8, 10 inch box vs 10,12 inch box, trowel vs straight knife, hand sand power sand, angle heads to use, how you do the 3 ways and so on, the list goes on......

It can be done, but it takes a while for new tapers working together and get up to speed. There's a lot of "We will try your way in this room, and my way in the other room:thumbup:


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## Toolnut

Don't think your going to have to wait a year to start getting call backs. Show them the door and tell them "don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya".


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## evolve991

They leave 1/2" gaps and call themselves Hangers?
If my guys leave a 1/4" gap it bugs them for the rest of the day.
I don't care what the finisher can cover the hanging should look great on its own!


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## moore

evolve991 said:


> They leave 1/2" gaps and call themselves Hangers?
> If my guys leave a 1/4" gap it bugs them for the rest of the day.
> I don't care what the finisher can cover the hanging should look great on its own!


:thumbsup::notworthy:


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## moore

Drywall Is a temporary product .. It only holds up for a short period of time . Get the **** over It!


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## krafty

I saw a bird fly out of one of those gaps#


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## Krsw85

I measure tight and subtract a 1/4. I measure twice, if its crooked then I cut it crooked to match. Your doing it right. You have to learn how to hurry up and mess up the job right? People just don't get it. A large portion of my business is repeat business.... If I want the job to look like dirt I can train damn monkeys to throw up 100 sheets a day. The sad thing is these jerks were probably only hanging 30 or 40 a day. I play clean up crew on a lot of jobs because I am that knowledgable and good at what I do. I can already tell yoir job is going to ha e tape bubbles and weak bs bead. They also sound like a few guys I just worked behind in an industrial facility at an airport. I was sent to tie the job together because things got done in the wrong order and it had to be patched together. I was also supposed to sand the rest of it. What I found made me so mad I blew a gasket. Anywhere that was difficult to reach, anywhere you had to jockey a lift around and use the slide out they left it with only 1 coat. People like that dont deserve to make any money in this business. Do it right or get off the job. It sounds like they nees to learn how to read a damn tape.


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## MrWillys

I am a legend in my own mind and the best that never was! Just ask me?


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## jetdriven

I'll leave a few photos for you guys. Let me know if this is constructed in a workmanlike manner, to pass without objection in the trades. This is a new construction Condo, with UL listed fire walls and ceilings, most of the ceiling is hanging on Resilient channel. There are over a dozen ceiling boxes like those. Supposed to be a 1/4" gap at wall-ceiling for acoustical sealant. but there is not.


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## MrWillys

Can't use plastic electrical outlets in rated assemblies and screw pattern should be 8" oc at the perimeter and 12" oc in the field. The floor above should have Gypcrete to be a 1 hour assembly.


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## gopherstateguy

The light boxes should have been installed flush with the board so a router could have been used, major issues with the taping as well.


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## jetdriven

the light boxes were installed protruding 1", but the contractor ran the drywall over the edge of the half of the light boxes because they miss-cut the holes. So its quite a way from the framing as well. I'm not a taper, what do you see with that?


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## MrWillys

looks like they're coating with taping compound and not topping mud. Therefore, it is shrinking and cracking. Overall, very poor construction standards and management is to blame. They need to hire qualified instead of lowest bid. Large projects should be negotiated contracts to qualified contractors that benefit from cooperation.

You get what you pay for and why I stayed busy even during recession.


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## gopherstateguy

jetdriven said:


> the light boxes were installed protruding 1", but the contractor ran the drywall over the edge of the half of the light boxes because they miss-cut the holes. So its quite a way from the framing as well. I'm not a taper, what do you see with that?


The light boxes may be 1" proud of the joist/truss, but does that account for the channel? As far as the taping goes, you can see the tape/hump in both butt joints and the cracking in the heavy fill area is problematic.


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## gopherstateguy

Hey Mr. W, I'm getting that lowest bid feeling as well.


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## jetdriven

The heavy fill area is where they overlapped a whole sheet along that joint instead of cutting it. About 3ft worth. I was surprised to see they tried to mud that in instead of trimming and setting it flush. Does that seem odd or is that me?


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## gopherstateguy

jetdriven said:


> The heavy fill area is where they overlapped a whole sheet along that joint instead of cutting it. About 3ft worth. I was surprised to see they tried to mud that in instead of trimming and setting it flush. Does that seem odd or is that me?


Not proper installation. The electrical, drywall, and general contractor have all failed. I feel bad for the future tenant and the service tech(if any)


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## moore

jetdriven said:


> The heavy fill area is where they overlapped a whole sheet along that joint instead of cutting it. About 3ft worth. I was surprised to see they tried to mud that in instead of trimming and setting it flush. Does that seem odd or is that me?


Thats lazy .


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## moore

jetdriven said:


> I'll leave a few photos for you guys. Let me know if this is constructed in a workmanlike manner, to pass without objection in the trades. This is a new construction Condo, with UL listed fire walls and ceilings, most of the ceiling is hanging on Resilient channel. There are over a dozen ceiling boxes like those. Supposed to be a 1/4" gap at wall-ceiling for acoustical sealant. but there is not.


You dont see pre cut often these days .


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