# i feel ready to give up



## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

I have no work. next week I'll be calling my old bosses and asking them if they need a carpenter. have to get by the next few months until some more work comes along. been bidding jobs like crazy, maybe my bids were to high, but i know for a fact people are working for pennies. some people tell me to just pay my guys dirt, and eek by. for all that i would've kept my previous job. what's the point of starting a business. the worst part of it is i feel DUMB. doubting myself at every turn now, trying to drop prices but good guys won't work for $12 an hour, they will laugh at me. maybe i just can't estimate properly, but i can't be that far off. a few months ago things were good, i was expanding, growing, hustling. today i am faced with no work, and just enough money left to tie the knots. Been doing this a long time, and i just can't see why it's not floating. a year ago, when i started the business, i didn't think it would be this bad. just venting.....thanks for listening.


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## super rocker (Jul 8, 2009)

*Hang in there, Bunky*

We are all feeling exactly like you, but you seem to be bidding work ,so there is hope. If you are being outbid ,ask the GC if you were close. If you are, then drop your price about 10% and see what happens. If you bid enough jobs eventually you WILL get one and use that as an example for your next bid. Your timing was bad, but no one saw this mess coming, so don't feel stupid or blame your self. Believe it or not, there are people in much worse shape than you so try to keep your life in perspective. This might sound trite, but you need to focus on what you have , not what you don't have. Whatever you do, never sell out or compromise your integrity like some people on this site. Hang in there, Buddy.:thumbup:


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## alltex (Jan 31, 2009)

good luck .i,m bidding my 2nd house in 3 months .all little stuff besides that .lucky its just me and Jose.He hangs ,i tape and tex.Weve been like that for about 6 years .He just wants to work and i do the busness part.Keep it small has always worked for me ! Don,t give up.


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## alltex (Jan 31, 2009)

Yes he is Legal.(i think).


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

D-Rock ..... You picked the toughest time in history to start a business. Problem with bidding is the work is 6 months to a year out. 

My advise .... Make the calls. A little humble pie is tough to eat, but at least you will be working. It is not going to get better anytime soon, matter of fact it is going to get much worse before it gets better if ever. 

I am whoring myself out at the moment ... Upstate is no better, just less of us.


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## rockdaddy (Jul 2, 2009)

HANg in there brother! Nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems. Persistence pays off in the end. Do what you have to do until you can do what you want to do. Look for things to start turning around in MARch or APRIL.
Don't give up!! Fortune favors the bold.


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## rockdaddy (Jul 2, 2009)

Dont know where in NY you are but SYRAcuse-ROCHEster-Buffalo market is moving. If you are closer to NYC maybe jump the bridege to Jersey. LAKEWood and the surrounding communities are moving pretty well for us right now.


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

rockdaddy said:


> Dont know where in NY you are but SYRAcuse-ROCHEster-Buffalo market is moving. If you are closer to NYC maybe jump the bridege to Jersey. LAKEWood and the surrounding communities are moving pretty well for us right now.


Rock Daddy ...I am in the Syracuse Rochester ... Buffalo market ..... I Either Sub or work with the biggest and the best ...... 

It ain't moving ...... Unless you know something I don't...... Give it up man.


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## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

thanks fellas. I'm whoring myself out at the moment for a gc. had to do it. it's a 350 board job he's doing w/ his own guys (they're not bad), he's just paying me as a sub so i figure it'll be enough to pay the bills and keep the worker's comp/liability going. He does want me to bid the taping for him, so i'm trying to figure out a nice tight number. all the boards are 8's with tops (commercial job)..Don't know why he got 8's, would've been better with 10's or 12's stood up. I guess that's what happens when you don't hire professionals.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Sometimes (depending on your rapport with the gc) I'll give them the number, then depending on the response, ask "Just what sort of number are you looking for?" He will either have another bid/s or a budget number. Be sure to ask the right questions to find out if the service you're offering is the same as the other bid. Try to not come off as desparate, stay professional. If you can get him to talk about his last drywaller, you may find out his hot buttons. Maybe the last guy's price was low but was lacking in other areas: quality, reliability, on time, etc.

As to the 8's.....fish around. Ask him what his reasoning was. "say, did the supply house cut you a deal on 8's?" or "on your next job, can I measure it up for you and see if my supplier can get 10's or 12's cheaper and stocked?". Maybe he is buying from HD or a lumberyard. If you can save him money/effort he will recognize the value. Try to eventually get a penny or so to measure it up.

I maybe off base, but if you can get him to talk with you, maybe you can find out what makes him tick and capitalize.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

D-rock you say your business is fairly new , that is the way it goes when things are normal that is things can even be slow ( until you build up some good loyal contractors ) but put a slow economy behind that it and it makes it a hundred times harder to find work.... That is all part of the game starting out , hanging in there and making things work out one way or another.... If I had to and things were so slow that I didn't have enough work for my crew yet more than one should take on by himself well lets just say I have been there .... long hours and persistence.... persistence especially with GC even if you don't get work that instance still stay in contact and be a friend with the head honchos , you don't have to always be work orientated with them and sooner or later things will be handed out to you because they will feel that they know you and can trust you it is a start .... it seems like a long road sometimes but there is always and end. Are some of the 
GC that you have worked for just not have the work or is some other drywall contractor taken away your business ??? If another has take your work away why is that ? the money or the service or quality or perhaps work ethics something to think about.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

Give up you say I just want to retire and horse around ........


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

After 35 years you should ! If I have to do this another 10 years ...... Well


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## alltex (Jan 31, 2009)

I,m sick and tired and ready to retire


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## rocker7969 (Jan 29, 2008)

*Working for cheaper...*

Yeah, around here too, we've been losing jobs too. One we are hanging now, we're doing a few cents cheaper just to be able to work. We have a couple contractors that always use us because they want a quality job, and know we will do whatever it takes to give them that. The other contractors, or I should say realtors, just want it done, and the don't care what it looks like. 
We had one house we were supposed to hang, but another "company" (don't think they are a real company), thought it was their house, so they hung it. We got screwed out of the hanging job, but still did the taping. Wish we would have lost that too, it took the tapers three days longer, and 4 more boxes of mud than the same house usually takes, when we hang it. And still, it didn't look as good as it should have.


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## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

We did a bunch of nickle dime jobs last summer. Garages, small remodels and some small EIFS jobs.

Since September we can't get to all of the work. It's myself and two good guys.
I drag in a couple more if it is real busy.

Bid lower, work harder, stay an hour longer a day. Extreme times require extreme measures. Tough times don't last. Tough people do.

It's a recession when your neighbor is out of work. It's a depression when you are out of work.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

Drywall Tycoon said:


> We did a bunch of nickle dime jobs last summer. Garages, small remodels and some small EIFS jobs.
> 
> Since September we can't get to all of the work. It's myself and two good guys.
> I drag in a couple more if it is real busy.
> ...


You can only bid so low then what are you going to do , pay to go to work ? Definition of depression is when the ones in the trade bid so low it drives down everyone Else's . Where will it end ? If you find yourself buying your jobs get out of the business and let those who know how to make a buck get on with our business... It's a highly skilled trade so don't work for pennies on the dollar .. The cost of running a business does not get any cheaper ( materials insurance gas and all the constants like the phone and any legal expenses so why are some of you giving in and lowering your labor prices ? It's not just the economy that is driving pricing down , it is the weak minded ones that will give in and work for nothing !!! It don't depend on the economy on money issues when it comes down to other business matters , overall you don't see people slashing their income just to satisfy some other greedy person move on and stand firm , if you have to walk from a job so be it , because if you keep sliding backwards sooner or later you wont have any job to walk away from you will be out of business... I refuse to work for anyone just to go broke I will not spend MY MONEY to provide someone with a high standard of living , I have to much respect for myself and all that I have worked for . There must be a way for everyone to get on board and even out the playing field ... you said tough time require extreme measures , and tough people survive tough times well toughen up & charge your worth other wise you are not tough but rather weak.


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## patricktdh (Nov 15, 2009)

where are you at? i need guys for multiple jobs right now.

Patrick


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## patricktdh (Nov 15, 2009)

if you are willing to come out to cali, i have work for you

patrick


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## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

you guys are great,
every response is uplifting, inspirational and instructive. i appreciate it. I've recently picked up some t&m work, but since the GC already got the material, it's just T. Never the less, i'm paying the bills. in the mean time, i'm bidding jobs like crazy. I've brought down my profit margin to between 10-15%, but i think my biggest problem is not knowing what going rates are . seems everyone charges slightly different numbers. I've been figuring everything t&m and adding profit/overhead. But i've realized no one hangs as many boards as i do, or frames as quickly as i can. Also, it's never as easy as just going in and throwing boards up. Gotta always button up framing, tie up loose ends etc. I simply tell my men " if you don't get these 85- 6' boards up today, you won't have a job tomorrow. ( we use 6' boards on jobs with tiny freight elevators here in NYC). I know guys are doing rock (finished & supplied) for $1 a SF, and that sounds reasonable for commercial work, but w/ all the extra bull involved i don't see how to turn a profit. What am i not understanding gentlemen ? am i doing something wrong ?


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## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

if you are willing to come out to cali, i have work for you

patrick



THANK YOU MY FRIEND !!
YOU ROCK !! but it's too far


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## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

silverstilts said:


> You can only bid so low then what are you going to do , pay to go to work ? Definition of depression is when the ones in the trade bid so low it drives down everyone Else's . Where will it end ? If you find yourself buying your jobs get out of the business and let those who know how to make a buck get on with our business... It's a highly skilled trade so don't work for pennies on the dollar .. The cost of running a business does not get any cheaper ( materials insurance gas and all the constants like the phone and any legal expenses so why are some of you giving in and lowering your labor prices ? It's not just the economy that is driving pricing down , it is the weak minded ones that will give in and work for nothing !!! It don't depend on the economy on money issues when it comes down to other business matters , overall you don't see people slashing their income just to satisfy some other greedy person move on and stand firm , if you have to walk from a job so be it , because if you keep sliding backwards sooner or later you wont have any job to walk away from you will be out of business... I refuse to work for anyone just to go broke I will not spend MY MONEY to provide someone with a high standard of living , I have to much respect for myself and all that I have worked for . There must be a way for everyone to get on board and even out the playing field ... you said tough time require extreme measures , and tough people survive tough times well toughen up & charge your worth other wise you are not tough but rather weak.


You can talk all that hold your price bull all you want Silver. Bring your self righteous self down to Michigan and keep your price.

Economics 101. The price will be what the market bears. 
I've bid the builders exchange. Slashed my price on the last ten jobs that I bid by 10 %. Morons are 10 to 20% less than I am.

It's a good thing that a few people her are still willing to pay a negotiated price to keep us busy. 

Tell the people that lost 40% of their 401 K in the stock market not to let that happen. Tell the people that are losing their homes here not to let that happen. Tell them they are weak.

Just because you are now a moderator doesn't mean you are an economic genius.

Tycoon


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

Drywall Tycoon said:


> You can talk all that hold your price bull all you want Silver. Bring your self righteous self down to Michigan and keep your price.
> 
> Economics 101. The price will be what the market bears.
> I've bid the builders exchange. Slashed my price on the last ten jobs that I bid by 10 %. Morons are 10 to 20% less than I am.
> ...


First off moderator or not I have had the same attitude way before that happened so don't try to throw that in my face ( only reason is to keep spammers off and others on track I have a right to my opinion just like everyone else )... second most people that lost their 401 was only money on paper think about it ..... and further yes you may think that the price only depends on what the market bears well who decides what the market bears ???? Keep on lowering your price and the market will continue to drop that is simple economics .. you will cause the market to feel that they will always get what they want at a far less value. My whole point was to those who drastically drop their bids only to buy a job , who cares if you are only haggling over a few pennies , 10 percent well that don't leave a whole lot for profit margin unless you are already making 80 - 100 percent to begin with it is all relative .... back to the whole 401 thing put your money in the bank and collect a measly 2 percent interest at least the money won't disappear or go buy some Cd's or certificates something that is going to guarantee payback instead of gambling with some other persons judgement on how to handle your money.....people who have the least little bit of common sense know full well that investing in the stock market has always been a gamble very few will come out filthy rich that inclination of becoming rich has led to the collapse of the system ....


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## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

silverstilts said:


> First off moderator or not I have had the same attitude way before that happened so don't try to throw that in my face ( only reason is to keep spammers off and others on track I have a right to my opinion just like everyone else )... second most people that lost their 401 was only money on paper think about it ..... and further yes you may think that the price only depends on what the market bears well who decides what the market bears ???? Keep on lowering your price and the market will continue to drop that is simple economics .. you will cause the market to feel that they will always get what they want at a far less value. My whole point was to those who drastically drop their bids only to buy a job , who cares if you are only haggling over a few pennies , 10 percent well that don't leave a whole lot for profit margin unless you are already making 80 - 100 percent to begin with it is all relative .... back to the whole 401 thing put your money in the bank and collect a measly 2 percent interest at least the money won't disappear or go buy some Cd's or certificates something that is going to guarantee payback instead of gambling with some other persons judgement on how to handle your money.....people who have the least little bit of common sense know full well that investing in the stock market has always been a gamble very few will come out filthy rich that inclination of becoming rich has led to the collapse of the system ....


Yep Silver, Most all the money is printed on paper. Treasury notes or stock certificates. It all fluctuates. Stocks go up and down. So does the almighty dollar that you think is precious. The more they print the less its worth. Unless you folks up there trade gold for drywall jobs. 

Regardless of how much of a legend in our own minds that we can be.
The market will only bear what the willing number of purchasers will pay.
Fewer projects for the same amount of drywall contractors mean a better bargaining position for the consumer.

Example: People cut down on oil consumption. Opec lowers their price.
Consumers cut down buying lobster. Either the lobster fisherman 
quit trapping or they lower their price.
Consumers cut down on home building. The board companies 
lower their price. ( I like that one )

Yes and even the drywall contractors lower their price too.
Does not mean that you are weak to lower your price.

As for leveling the playing field in your previous post. No you can not have it both ways. You can not level the playing field and not lower your price.
That is what free enterprise is all about. When and if Michigan turns around. We will again charge higher prices. Except we will have twice as many illegal immigrant hangers and finishers driving the price down.


You say the inclination of getting rich has lead to the collapse of the system. Spoken like a Humphrey. It is the wealthy that pay for our services. Unless you do low income housing. Then we and the wealthy are paying our wages.

I don't give two ships about the guys getting filthy rich. Good for them. They will make it regardless of how much we villainize them.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

Tycoon my whole point to this is I believe the market can sustain to pay what you and I rightfully deserve ( people want to hold on to what money they have don't mean they don't have any ) , sure work is down and there are those out there pricing well below what they should and I can see your point that will drive down pricing for the rest of us that are legit .. sure oil companies lower their pricing but we all know that they could lower more and still make billions of profit , that is a whole different game and yes it is all tied and inner-linked together snowballing the economy.. I just still know that I have not had to compete like most of you out there , so maybe it just hasn't hit me in the face yet ... work is not up like usual here but still steady . have enough booked in for a few months but could always use more.... I think it should not be to long before things get back on track and we all can make some decent income & profit.... the market out there will only be sluggish for only so long it is just going through a cycle ... hopefully by the time it has ended some of the rift raft out there will move on ...


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

As for a turnaround (in housing), several things must occur first.

First, and most important, is unemployment. Until people have jobs, there will be no recovery. Note that GM is poised to spend over one billion of our money on overseas ops. No outcry from our White House.

Next, our banking/ mortgage system is dysfunctional. Online lenders are again advertising ridiculous offers that got us here in the first place. And banksters like Goldman Sachs borrowing at .025% or less and then using these funds to trade in oil, etc vs. getting that money into the main street economy.

Coupled with the Treasury printing money at will....anybody can see that can only end badly. The entire world knows it, so why doesn't Timmy and Ben know it. Is it because of their ties to Goldman that they do not fear a total collapse, that Goldman will profit either way?

Finally, ( we not really) a FREE ECONOMY is vital to recovery. These socialist experiments being attempted have failed every single time throughout history. So why do our educated leaders believe they can spend us back to strength? The answer is it cannot work, even if Chi-communism is the model, our fundamentals are wildly different. 

Just watch the prez suck up to Asia, bow to dictators and figureheads and be lambasted by even the Japanese and Chinese press. He will be ridiculed as a "wanabee commie" be the very people he emulates. Now even the Nobel prize is a booby prize.

So yeah, I'm gonna bitch every time I see that "socialist mop".

But I digress, there are pockets of work out there that pay right. It may with those quality contractors who have had their fill of lowballers who cannot perform. Or prevailing wage jobs with entities that refuse to allow wage piracy. And these lowballers will self-exterminate but they will take some of us with them.


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## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

I agree.. Socialism will not work. Maybe the gang in Washington should look at history, particularly the Reagan era, and learn how to boost an economy, while still kicking the enemy's rear ends..


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Which could accomplished by doing two simple things... Cut taxes and raisE the prime rate to stop insane deficit spending by consumers and prevent inflation if it not already too late. Rates on (future) credit card purchses should be 50% or something really high to prevent usage altogether. This would stop folks from living beyond their means.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

I think Custom's post described it at best over on the business marketing section under "stupid prices" so much truth and right down to the nitty gritty details...


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## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

Two years ago: One drywall project. Ten bidders.

This year: One drywall project. Twenty bidders.

Guess what : Stupid prices.

Whadaya do: Bid lower. Not to lose money. Work a little harder. An hour more a day.

Don't say that is weak or stupid.

Like silver said in his post. It hasn't hit him in the face yet. Michigan is dependant on the auto industry. Car sales have been down. Everything else follows here.

Don't tell the young drywall contractor to hold his price and starve to death.
That is arrogant and ignorant. Tell him to work harder to get jobs. Work harder to get them done. Compete. That is what the free market is all about.

Tycoon


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

It's a two edged sword, lowering prices. Need the work, lower it a bit, make less, the men get to work, etc. But it is also like many bad habits, once you do it once, it gets easier to do a second and third time. That is where the problem lies. Soon everybody is doing it, like a reverse wage/ price spiral. And then what?

Biden was on the Daily Show last night, talking about small biz needing help. Then Obama spewing warnings of a double- dip. Marks the first time either one has said anything that resembles an intelligent observation about the economy. Too bad it has taken them this long to recognize their game plan is misdirected.


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## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

It's to late here. The price war has been on for a year.
Some of us that have been at it a long time here are able to struggle through
I have a little rainy day savings to get through this.

The guys that are just starting may not. When I started in 1980 we were hanging apartments for .06. Between footage and side jobs, I thought I was getting filthy rich.

Right now, here. You cannot get a bid job for 20% less than two years ago.
I bid a small grocery store. Studs,Insulation, drywall and EIFS. I was second at 
$ 52,000.00. Low bid was $ 44,000.00. The pack was mid 50 to 60 k.

I bid the drywall at .75. EIFS at $ 6.00. Disgustingly cheap. Just for a place to work in Jan. - Feb. All the bid work is going like that here. I don't know how they are doing it.

The phone is still ringing for negotiated work. Last summer was brutal here.

The only help small business needs is tax relief. As long as the government is creating government jobs and they are getting their cushy benefits and pensions.
Why would they help us ?

Tycoon


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

A tax cut by itself won't do it now. Our price war has been in process over two years. I won't even repeat the footage prices from here, but they a little higher than rockdaddy's but not much. But am starting to hear from GCs that had their fill of lowballers.

Am urging all to call, write, fax, email your reps and senators and explain our plight. Sounds cliche, but the squeaky wheel gets greased.


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## TimberTom (Oct 26, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Am urging all to call, write, fax, email your reps and senators and explain our plight. Sounds cliche, but the squeaky wheel gets greased.


Agreed. This needs to be done in volume, though. Not enough people speak up, and things rarely change. <squeak squeak>


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## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

just picked up another small t&m thing...so at least i could keep one of my guys busy for a short time, and collect a few bucks. in the meantime been doing the t&m thing myself at another site. at least the bills are paid. I've very recently put in a bid for a stud/insulation/rock job, and the GC told me i have a good shot, and it's ready to start soon. if i get it, it should carry me through winter. But, i have to admit...I cut my pricing ALOT. there is no wiggle room, and i'll be there every day with tools strapped on pushing like a bull. If something else pops up while that's happening, i don't know how i'll split myself up. but with those numbers i can't afford to trust or pay anyone else to run my job. KEEPING MY FINGERS CROSSED FOR THIS JOB...
Glad to see there are many like-minded people on this site, i feel right at home.


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## rabb (Mar 22, 2008)

*wish you were here in chicago*



patricktdh said:


> if you are willing to come out to cali, i have work for you
> 
> patrick


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Drywall Tycoon said:


> Consumers cut down on home building. The board companies
> lower their price. ( I like that one )


Hmmm, seems like that's not really the case now, is it? Board prices here have increased by 20% every quarter for the last four quarters...

I think what really happens is that companies see profits going down due to lack of spending so they raise their prices to level profits. They know we still need their product, so we're in a bind and have to pay the increased price.

There were a couple of months there when I was lowering my price to stay busy, and I thought I needed to do it. I've since realized.....f*&$ that. My skills haven't changed...it's not as if a recession hits and my skills have dropped by 30%, so why should my price?


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## its.scout (Oct 23, 2010)

It's quite different between Canada, or where I live anyhow, and the US. It seems the economic structure of your country is doomed to fail because the government isn't taking necessary steps to help you guys out. In Canada when that recession hit, the government handed out tax credits and other building incentives to any one that was renovating or purchasing improvements for their home, which was great. Even though times were tough there was great incentive to pay us to work. So there hasn't been much of a problem finding work, what there has been a problem with is prices. It used to be that we could get about 50% higher per foot rates before the recession and then it dropped about 20% which was fine if you were a really hard worker. Then a boarding foreman for one of the largest companies on the island took the finishing foreman and started their own company and underbid EVERYONE; slashing prices and stealing a portion of the other companies contacts. Even though everything in general is back on the up and the work is flowing, this guy has just gouged us out of good pricing as he just underbids everyone. What really sucks is that he uses the bottom of the barrel, quantity driven drywallers, and has the numbers to push out the work. This leaves the rest of us; the ones who take pride in our work, and of course the mediocre. I'm only 23, Im still learning every day and I love what I do. It's just brutal to think what he's doing to the industry, not only with the wages, but with the guys he's hiring, and the way he is training people. It's no wonder we get a bad rap with these kind of people dictating the way the market shapes up and leaving a lot of you great drywallers searching to find a way to scrape by and keep your business afloat.


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## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> Hmmm, seems like that's not really the case now, is it? Board prices here have increased by 20% every quarter for the last four quarters...
> 
> I think what really happens is that companies see profits going down due to lack of spending so they raise their prices to level profits. They know we still need their product, so we're in a bind and have to pay the increased price.
> 
> There were a couple of months there when I was lowering my price to stay busy, and I thought I needed to do it. I've since realized.....f*&$ that. My skills haven't changed...it's not as if a recession hits and my skills have dropped by 30%, so why should my price?


Board prices here took one 20% increase this year. They are calling for another at the first of the year. Still very low historically. Remember 1996-97-98. Doesn't matter your skill level. Only if you have several negotiated customers you will probably work for less. Until this thing gets going.


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## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

its.scout said:


> It's quite different between Canada, or where I live anyhow, and the US. It seems the economic structure of your country is doomed to fail because the government isn't taking necessary steps to help you guys out. In Canada when that recession hit, the government handed out tax credits and other building incentives to any one that was renovating or purchasing improvements for their home, which was great. Even though times were tough there was great incentive to pay us to work. So there hasn't been much of a problem finding work, what there has been a problem with is prices. It used to be that we could get about 50% higher per foot rates before the recession and then it dropped about 20% which was fine if you were a really hard worker. Then a boarding foreman for one of the largest companies on the island took the finishing foreman and started their own company and underbid EVERYONE; slashing prices and stealing a portion of the other companies contacts. Even though everything in general is back on the up and the work is flowing, this guy has just gouged us out of good pricing as he just underbids everyone. What really sucks is that he uses the bottom of the barrel, quantity driven drywallers, and has the numbers to push out the work. This leaves the rest of us; the ones who take pride in our work, and of course the mediocre. I'm only 23, Im still learning every day and I love what I do. It's just brutal to think what he's doing to the industry, not only with the wages, but with the guys he's hiring, and the way he is training people. It's no wonder we get a bad rap with these kind of people dictating the way the market shapes up and leaving a lot of you great drywallers searching to find a way to scrape by and keep your business afloat.



I don't think our country is doomed but it seems they continue to devalue the dollar. 11-4-10. Printing more money. It is a global currency so it makes sense that we are spreading some of that cheer to our neighbors.

About 1 in 10 here have a bridge card. Free food from the government. I think it is higher in Michigan. Every time I go to the grocery store there is someone in line with a full cart and a bridge card.

There is always a new kid on the block. In our case about 20 million undocumented workers from a third world country that enjoy making hamburger flipping wages to do a skilled job.


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## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> It's a two edged sword, lowering prices. Need the work, lower it a bit, make less, the men get to work, etc. But it is also like many bad habits, once you do it once, it gets easier to do a second and third time. That is where the problem lies. Soon everybody is doing it, like a reverse wage/ price spiral. And then what?
> 
> Biden was on the Daily Show last night, talking about small biz needing help. Then Obama spewing warnings of a double- dip. Marks the first time either one has said anything that resembles an intelligent observation about the economy. Too bad it has taken them this long to recognize their game plan is misdirected.



Darren, it is almost a year later. You are right. That was the most intelligent thing that Biden has said.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Drywall Tycoon said:


> Board prices here took one 20% increase this year. They are calling for another at the first of the year. Still very low historically. Remember 1996-97-98. Doesn't matter your skill level. Only if you have several negotiated customers you will probably work for less. Until this thing gets going.


Personally, I'm really pushing the referral end of my business, that way people know what to expect and I can set my rate where it needs to be. It seems that people like to avoid the hassle of making all kinds of phone calls, taking bids, etc. And, they know the quality and attention to detail will be there. I'm aware that this won't work for larger contracts (in most cases), but it seems to be doing the trick in our blossoming remodel economy. People seem open to an explanation of the bid process if the job is complicated...bids will generally be high because contractors don't know what to expect once they tear into something...T&M saves people money in the long run (as long you're not a milk-man). No, I'm not getting rich, but I'm making a good wage and feeding my family.....that's all I really want anyway. A side bonus is that I can also offer to do other aspects of their project for a reduced rate, and learn new skills which I can then charge a good rate for in later projects. It's a win-win.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> Personally, I'm really pushing the referral end of my business, that way people know what to expect and I can set my rate where it needs to be. It seems that people like to avoid the hassle of making all kinds of phone calls, taking bids, etc. And, they know the quality and attention to detail will be there. I'm aware that this won't work for larger contracts (in most cases), but it seems to be doing the trick in our blossoming remodel economy.


I've been thinking some lately about your "blossoming remodel economy", and how it seems (to me) to be a maturing example of the term 'cocooning' that future forecaster Faith Popcorn came up with in the 90s to explain people's growing interest in staying at home: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocooning

People feeling 'safe' when hiring services to make their cocooning a more positive experience seems like a natural spin off.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> I've been thinking some lately about your "blossoming remodel economy", and how it seems (to me) to be a maturing example of the term 'cocooning' that future forecaster Faith Popcorn came up with in the 90s to explain people's growing interest in staying at home: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocooning
> 
> People feeling 'safe' when hiring services to make their cocooning a more positive experience seems like a natural spin off.


I can see where that might come into play, but I also think it has a lot to do with both the economy and the "greening' of construction that is going on. My area is seeing a tremendous growth of "conscientious" building, re-using materials, etc. The economy here, along with new bank structures for lending, are almost forcing people to hold on to what they have. Instead of buying or building a new home, people are exploring options on how to make their own homes more adaptable and usable to meet their needs. We're seeing a lot of garage conversions, basement remodels, additions, and general restructuring of floor plans. I don't know that I would say that it is a way of isolating oneself from social activity, but I will admit that I have seen more than an average number of home offices being incorporated into living spaces. My town is very proud of its social involvement, that being one of the main draws of living here. As far as feeling "safe", I think you would agree that having positive word-of-mouth references seems like a better bet than accepting bids for money savings alone....chances are that the lowest bid will be the one who leaves you in a lurch...feeling frustrated with services rendered and such. I would also venture to say that referrals are an indication of _more_ social activity, rather than less...people have to be interacting to pass on information, right? I hope i don't come across as argumentative here, that's certainly not my intent! It's nice to have intelligent dialogue about the current issues we're all facing.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> I can see where that might come into play, but I also think it has a lot to do with both the economy and the "greening' of construction that is going on. My area is seeing a tremendous growth of "conscientious" building, re-using materials, etc. The economy here, along with new bank structures for lending, are almost forcing people to hold on to what they have. Instead of buying or building a new home, people are exploring options on how to make their own homes more adaptable and usable to meet their needs. We're seeing a lot of garage conversions, basement remodels, additions, and general restructuring of floor plans. I don't know that I would say that it is a way of isolating oneself from social activity, but I will admit that I have seen more than an average number of home offices being incorporated into living spaces. My town is very proud of its social involvement, that being one of the main draws of living here.


My own idea of 'greening' and 'conscientious building' is to not build anything that's not absolutely necessary. 

Yeah, 'one size' doesn't necessary fit all when it comes to predictions. Such predictions can be 'special universe' truths, rather than absolute truths, although they might explain the bigger 'universes' that are out there. Or not.

You might be describing something Popcorn's firm has dubbed 'Lo-Co cocooning' for 2010, and 'Hood Huddling': http://www.faithpopcorn.com/ContentFiles/PDF/FPBR%202010%20Predictions.pdf



SlimPickins said:


> As far as feeling "safe", I think you would agree that having positive word-of-mouth references seems like a better bet than accepting bids for money savings alone....chances are that the lowest bid will be the one who leaves you in a lurch...feeling frustrated with services rendered and such. I would also venture to say that referrals are an indication of _more_ social activity, rather than less...people have to be interacting to pass on information, right? I hope i don't come across as argumentative here, that's certainly not my intent! It's nice to have intelligent dialogue about the current issues we're all facing.


Less social activity doesn't necessarily mean no social activity. People will look for info about something they deem important enough. Risking good sized $, and having a bad experience doing it, will get even someone like me asking.

And there is a growing social activity in some ways, for some people, through sites like Facebook. Through such, you can ask who you should consider to get something done.

No arguing perceived. You're stating an alternative view, that could be right, at least for your area and from your experiences. Another 'special universe' condition/situation.


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## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> I can see where that might come into play, but I also think it has a lot to do with both the economy and the "greening' of construction that is going on. My area is seeing a tremendous growth of "conscientious" building, re-using materials, etc. The economy here, along with new bank structures for lending, are almost forcing people to hold on to what they have. Instead of buying or building a new home, people are exploring options on how to make their own homes more adaptable and usable to meet their needs. We're seeing a lot of garage conversions, basement remodels, additions, and general restructuring of floor plans. I don't know that I would say that it is a way of isolating oneself from social activity, but I will admit that I have seen more than an average number of home offices being incorporated into living spaces. My town is very proud of its social involvement, that being one of the main draws of living here. As far as feeling "safe", I think you would agree that having positive word-of-mouth references seems like a better bet than accepting bids for money savings alone....chances are that the lowest bid will be the one who leaves you in a lurch...feeling frustrated with services rendered and such. I would also venture to say that referrals are an indication of _more_ social activity, rather than less...people have to be interacting to pass on information, right? I hope i don't come across as argumentative here, that's certainly not my intent! It's nice to have intelligent dialogue about the current issues we're all facing.


Your right on with the social interaction to generate work Slim. I have picked up work going to the right breakfast place early in the morning or hanging out in the Supply house. People are always looking for someone to do something. They're usually not shopping for the lowest price.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> My own idea of 'greening' and 'conscientious building' is to not build anything that's not absolutely necessary.


A big :thumbup: on that! I worked on a new "green" house recently which had a deck that wrapped around 80% of the house....it was built with an exorbitant amount of 6x12 material which was definitely not necessary for structural integrity. But it was harvested dead/standing from a beetle killed forest. In my mind, that doesn't quite justify over-using materials, just because they happened to be there (and my apologies for getting off track with the drywall end of this). I understand the aesthetic value of big wood, sure, but sometimes it looks like designer masturbation.




JustMe said:


> You might be describing something Popcorn's firm has dubbed 'Lo-Co cocooning' for 2010, and 'Hood Huddling': http://www.faithpopcorn.com/ContentFiles/PDF/FPBR%202010%20Predictions.pdf


That was pretty interesting...and I believe I do see a lot of that happening here. I know that in large part I find myself acting in that manner....distancing myself from impersonal transactions that take place half a world away and focusing more on integrating myself into my community. Thanks for the introduction to faithpopcorn.com....I'm going to look into it further.




JustMe said:


> And there is a growing social activity in some ways, for some people, through sites like Facebook. Through such, you can ask who you should consider to get something done.


I'm on Facebook...maybe I should start looking into marketing for my area!


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Drywall Tycoon said:


> Your right on with the social interaction to generate work Slim. I have picked up work going to the right breakfast place early in the morning or hanging out in the Supply house. People are always looking for someone to do something. They're usually not shopping for the lowest price.


Funny you should mention that. The last time I found work "slim pickin's" I went into the supply house and asked who was really busy. I made a phone call, and my schedule filled right up. AND, he was/is great about paying a good wage. I'm sympathetic to the folks who can't find work, or who have to play the lowball game...but if I were to make a prediction, I'd say that at least in my area, the boom era is over. We'll continue to see some growth, but it will not match the amount of work we had a few years ago. The really low bidders have dug themselves a deep hole they're going to have trouble digging themselves out of. Me, I'm going to keep showing up everywhere I work with a pleasant demeanor, professional appearance, meticulous attention to detail, and as much salesmanship as I can muster.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> A big :thumbup: on that! I worked on a new "green" house recently which had a deck that wrapped around 80% of the house....it was built with an exorbitant amount of 6x12 material which was definitely not necessary for structural integrity. But it was harvested dead/standing from a beetle killed forest. In my mind, that doesn't quite justify over-using materials, just because they happened to be there (and my apologies for getting off track with the drywall end of this). I understand the aesthetic value of big wood, sure, but sometimes it looks like designer masturbation.


Pine beetle killed forest? Pine beetles, bronze birch borers, Dutch Elm disease spread through beetles, ...... . Beetles, killing a lot of trees off. I used to sometimes put insecticide implants into some trees that would systemically feed up into the trees and kill the beetles off while in their development stages. Problem was that as other trees around would die, the beetles would swarm into the ones left.

Sounds like there could've been maybe a bit of 'ego' involved in the material over-use? Maybe some bragging rights in the excessive deck materials/deck design? I could see that justifying it to the owners.

When it comes to 'green', people often aren't considering so much things like the extra fuel and labour it can take to bring out, cut up, and put on killed forests. When all factors are considered, I sometimes wonder how 'green' some things really are. Not saying that's the case with all killed forest wood, though. But maybe with some of it.



SlimPickins said:


> That was pretty interesting...and I believe I do see a lot of that happening here. I know that in large part I find myself acting in that manner....distancing myself from impersonal transactions that take place half a world away and focusing more on integrating myself into my community. Thanks for the introduction to faithpopcorn.com....I'm going to look into it further.


It does maybe give a few insights into maybe why certain things are going on in the U.S. I don't know how much it applies to places like here in Canada. Maybe some.

I don't consider her to always be right (or at least right on the money), and I actually haven't looked into her stuff in awhile. Example: Yesterday was the 1st time I came across her 'Lo-Co' and 'Hood huddling'. But I have been familiar with her 'Cocooning' for a few years.
I'd maybe look at a cross input from a few 'futurists', to try and get a read on what might happen.

If I was to 'predict' the future, I'd say a lot of people are going to continue wanting what Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs states. To that, also what marketers Al Ries and Jack Trout have to say about things like 'focus', when it comes to business. And I'd add the 'value drivers' Edward de Bono states in his book _Sur/petition: Going Beyond Competing, to Creating Value Monopolies_.

When it comes to renos and focus and creating value monopolies, the company I'm doing work for right now seems to have a general contractor client like that - one who focuses on renos pretty much exclusively (I'm thinking most any of their new stuff comes indirectly from them having first done renos on something else for the owners of the new buildings), and has become significant in doing such large renos as hotels. They still do smaller jobs as well, though. Those can be for those same hotels, as well as other commercial (and some non-commercial) properties. But their focus is commercial renos. And much of it is cost plus. Maybe much of the cost plus thing also comes from the clients coming to trust that they won't get hosed by the general or its subs.



SlimPickins said:


> I'm on Facebook...maybe I should start looking into marketing for my area!


If you type into Google search 'marketing on fac', you'll get a menu dropping down that offers search results for info on marketing on Facebook, on Twitter, on .......


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> When it comes to 'green', people often aren't considering so much things like the extra fuel and labour it can take to bring out, cut up, and put on killed forests. When all factors are considered, I sometimes wonder how 'green' some things really are. Not saying that's the case with all killed forest wood, though. But maybe with some of it.


I'm in agreement with you on this. Money is also a resource, at least in my eyes. Personally, I believe the deck could have been built with half the resources. Another facet of the home is the 20' ceiling in the entry/living, the 10' ceilings on the main floor, and the 9' ceilings in the basement. That's a lot of unused space to heat, requiring the use of even more resources. I firmly believe that in this case 'green' is a buzzword being used to sell a custom home in a nice location in a sad economy. There are innovative techniques being used, but they seem to contradict the overall idea of the home.



I'm really intrigued by the information on futurism you've presented. I've been doing a lot of analyzing of social direction lately, but certainly not to the extent that these folks are. There are definitely trends going on, and I'd never thought to look for information on them. This should prove to be very useful as I try and adapt and build my business. I've been doing drywall for a while (only 15 years), but I've been thinking of other avenues in which to make a living and still practice my own particular brand of craftsmanship. I think what I'm learning most from this site is how to effectively run a business....for so long I functioned as a employee, even when I was a subcontractor. It seems time to develop a more proactive approach to making money, as well as finding a niche that (hopefully) only I can fill. i've been giving a lot of thought to developing my own brand...but either I'm not creative enough or in tune enough to exactly what it is that I have to offer. Just being a drywaller here is not going to cut it....there's far too much competition.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> This should prove to be very useful as I try and adapt and build my business. I've been doing drywall for a while (only 15 years), but I've been thinking of other avenues in which to make a living and still practice my own particular brand of craftsmanship. I think what I'm learning most from this site is how to effectively run a business....for so long I functioned as a employee, even when I was a subcontractor. It seems time to develop a more proactive approach to making money, as well as finding a niche that (hopefully) only I can fill. i've been giving a lot of thought to developing my own brand...but either I'm not creative enough or in tune enough to exactly what it is that I have to offer. Just being a drywaller here is not going to cut it....there's far too much competition.


Hold onto those thoughts and I'll get back to you on them. I've been giving some input to some people who are working on this very thing, and I'll pass on whatever comes from it.


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## bob16 (Jan 28, 2008)

d-rock said:


> I agree.. Socialism will not work. Maybe the gang in Washington should look at history, particularly the Reagan era, and learn how to boost an economy, while still kicking the enemy's rear ends..


Jesus the old right wing cliches. You sit here and tell people how bad you are getting killed by the present system and you are still not even willing to consider alternatives. Even in the middle of a depression you stay loyal to that which is screwing you over so royally.

I'm not too far from where you live and I'm aware how bad it is in the NYC area (as well as just about everywhere else). The past ten years have been the worst I've ever seen in drywall (thanks to the economic traitors hiring illegals) AND I"VE BEEN IN DRYWALL FOR 40 YEARS.

Socialism is kicking americas market fundamentalist dysfunctional ass. Even the very conservative Legatum Investment firm has concluded that now in their prosperity index. The greatest economy the world has ever known (america from approx 1940 to 1980) had tax rates as high as 91% on the rich and the economy roared for decades.

Reality is trying to tell you something. Give up on your "pure market" delusion. Everyday it shows itself to be more and more of a failure.

********************************************

Prosperity Index

http://www.prosperity.com/rankings.aspx

Rankings

1) Norway
2) Denmark
3) Finland 
4) Australia
5) New Zealand
6) Sweden
7) Canada
8) Switzerland
9) Netherlands
10) U.S.


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## bob16 (Jan 28, 2008)

Just a little context to show how bad the last 10 years have been. It's no mystery why we have ended up in this depression.

**********************************************

*Almost Zero Job Creation Under Bush*

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2009/06/a_lost_decade_f.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/01/AR2010010101196.html

*Stock Market Was The Worst Ever Under Bush*

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704786204574607993448916718.html

*Bush Produced The Worst Economy In Decades*

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/11/AR2009011102301.html
*
IMF Declared America To Be In A Depression 2 Weeks After Bush Left Office*

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a6aaWZ8ab8yU


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## jmr (Mar 22, 2010)

bottom line the market sucks and our competition is people used to a 3rd world standard of living...

so ol brown nosing ****** needs to get his old butt off the couch and start working for whatever the market is bareing at this point.. i get tired of people complaining, not working for this wage, not working for that, not paying their bills when their bills consist of **** ton of luxurys they dont need.. 

ditch your toys for now, work for the going rate and it will turn around.. if there is enough of us out there to put the foot down, we can bring prices up eventually. teach your kids, teach others you know how to do it.. 

i've worked with alot of guys that, 5 years ago said they wouldn't teach their kids this trade.. well, thats why we have this issue of the illegals taking over.. no new generations and a bunch of vetern drywallers sitting at home complaining about what they used to make.. 

im 26 and i've been doing this for 10 years and i love it.. drywall got me a house, trucks, toys etc.. but it also took it all away except for my house.. i wont leave this cuz i can't imagine doing anything else. i'm also teaching people, friends out of work, my bro when he gets old enough, keeping fellow drywallers busy when i can... anything to chase out the illegal majority...


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

jmr said:


> i've worked with alot of guys that, 5 years ago said they wouldn't teach their kids this trade..


I have every intention of teaching my children this trade....but only as something to fall back on. I want them to have a full sack of skills when they hit the ground to set out on their own.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

bob16
"The greatest economy the world has ever known (america from approx 1940 to 1980) had tax rates as high as 91% on the rich and the economy roared for decades."
where did you get that # from????? 91 %
i heard around 75 % for the rich,around world war one era,30 %for low class.the economy was tanking in the states.you had to pay for your war effort,(which you also profited from ???) and government began expanding.it was what some called the forgotten depression,(forgot what years ???)then they dropped the tax rates to 27% -rich,,,7% low end earners ,and began to cut back on government spending,what happened,the roaring twenties,look at how much stuff was invented or became accessible to the average joe,things like phone,car,fridge,vacuum,radio,drywall ,list goes on etc........a new class was invented,the MIDDLE class.....but then along came 1929......crash!!!!!
I don't see how taxing the hell out of the rich or the middle class solves anything.Nore do I have the answers.but read up on how the Roman empire slowly collapsed .lets just say history likes to repeat it self


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

bob16 said:


> Jesus the old right wing cliches. You sit here and tell people how bad you are getting killed by the present system and you are still not even willing to consider alternatives. Even in the middle of a depression you stay loyal to that which is screwing you over so royally.
> 
> I'm not too far from where you live and I'm aware how bad it is in the NYC area (as well as just about everywhere else). The past ten years have been the worst I've ever seen in drywall (thanks to the economic traitors hiring illegals) AND I"VE BEEN IN DRYWALL FOR 40 YEARS.
> 
> ...


 Comrade Bob,,, socialism has never worked, ANYWHERE, EVER, in the history of the world.

Socialism is great, till you run out of other peoples money,,:thumbsup:

Now get off your lazy butt and go earn YOUR own money!!!!


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## SaskMud (Jun 9, 2010)

jmr said:


> im 26 and i've been doing this for 10 years and i love it.. drywall got me a house, trucks, toys etc.. but it also took it all away except for my house.. i wont leave this cuz i can't imagine doing anything else. i'm also teaching people, friends out of work, my bro when he gets old enough, keeping fellow drywallers busy when i can... anything to chase out the illegal majority...



I am 20 years old, drywall, has gotten me out of $30,000 of stupid debt in about 8 months. I love this trade, and I love the trades that are around it (Insul, board, mud, tape, paint, wood finishing, t-bar, steel stud) This trade is the best there possibly is, we are piece workers, the strong live well, the weak just survive. 

Best of luck to everyone in the States, I can't even imagine how it is to have to fight for work. Here the market is very nice :thumbup:


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## jmr (Mar 22, 2010)

SaskMud said:


> I am 20 years old, drywall, has gotten me out of $30,000 of stupid debt in about 8 months. I love this trade, and I love the trades that are around it (Insul, board, mud, tape, paint, wood finishing, t-bar, steel stud) This trade is the best there possibly is, we are piece workers, the strong live well, the weak just survive.
> 
> Best of luck to everyone in the States, I can't even imagine how it is to have to fight for work. Here the market is very nice :thumbup:


Unfortunately Canada seems like last frontier for non illegal workers like us.. or rural areas in the states


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## MercuryArc (Mar 30, 2010)

This is a topic close to my heart. In July I had work booked through the end of October. I wasn't getting rich but I was making enough to pay bills and buy a new tool every job. 
I had a 400 sq. foot deck to build, even though it is not my specialty, but I can do it and didn't want to turn down the work. The fellow passed away. The next job ended up canceling and didn't want to spend the money this year. 6 weeks work gone all in one week. 
I got work for a month delivering anhydrous. Supposed to be 4 75 to 80 hr weeks. The OT would replace my loss of revenue. The weather didn't cooperate and it ended up being about 100 hrs. total and only 2 hrs. of overtime. Now I haven't got a bid since. I feel just like D-rock. I'm scared and nervous that I made a mistake 2 years ago going on my own. 
Luckily I have a CDL. What I've decided to do is take a temporary job through March driving. During this time I'm going to start lining up work for spring and quit trying to get by on $200 jobs and push it all to next year. I have one job booked and 3 bids to do. This may be my last stand. If by April I don't have atleast 3 months work booked, I'm seriously going to have to evaluate things.


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## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

MercuryArc said:


> This is a topic close to my heart. In July I had work booked through the end of October. I wasn't getting rich but I was making enough to pay bills and buy a new tool every job.
> I had a 400 sq. foot deck to build, even though it is not my specialty, but I can do it and didn't want to turn down the work. The fellow passed away. The next job ended up canceling and didn't want to spend the money this year. 6 weeks work gone all in one week.
> I got work for a month delivering anhydrous. Supposed to be 4 75 to 80 hr weeks. The OT would replace my loss of revenue. The weather didn't cooperate and it ended up being about 100 hrs. total and only 2 hrs. of overtime. Now I haven't got a bid since. I feel just like D-rock. I'm scared and nervous that I made a mistake 2 years ago going on my own.
> Luckily I have a CDL. What I've decided to do is take a temporary job through March driving. During this time I'm going to start lining up work for spring and quit trying to get by on $200 jobs and push it all to next year. I have one job booked and 3 bids to do. This may be my last stand. If by April I don't have atleast 3 months work booked, I'm seriously going to have to evaluate things.


Things have picked up for me in 2010. they will for you as well. I've never had months of work booked yet, but theres always stuff crawling in the door. It was a stressful year dealing with an expanding company and not letting costs slip away, but a great lesson. I'm sure tomorrow will be better for you. hard work pays off.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

silverstilts said:


> You can only bid so low then what are you going to do , pay to go to work ? Definition of depression is when the ones in the trade bid so low it drives down everyone Else's . Where will it end ? If you find yourself buying your jobs get out of the business and let those who know how to make a buck get on with our business... It's a highly skilled trade so don't work for pennies on the dollar .. The cost of running a business does not get any cheaper ( materials insurance gas and all the constants like the phone and any legal expenses so why are some of you giving in and lowering your labor prices ? It's not just the economy that is driving pricing down , it is the weak minded ones that will give in and work for nothing !!! It don't depend on the economy on money issues when it comes down to other business matters , overall you don't see people slashing their income just to satisfy some other greedy person move on and stand firm , if you have to walk from a job so be it , because if you keep sliding backwards sooner or later you wont have any job to walk away from you will be out of business... I refuse to work for anyone just to go broke I will not spend MY MONEY to provide someone with a high standard of living , I have to much respect for myself and all that I have worked for . There must be a way for everyone to get on board and even out the playing field ... you said tough time require extreme measures , and tough people survive tough times well toughen up & charge your worth other wise you are not tough but rather weak.


That's the most sensible way I've heard it put yet! I can sit at home and lose money,,, and ,save GAS!!The weak will go out of business . That's how the playing field will be evened out.If a d/c is in high demand now,, he has no worries for the future..


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## The_Texture_Guy (Dec 31, 2010)

moore said:


> That's the most sensible way I've heard it put yet! I can sit at home and lose money,,, and ,save GAS!!The weak will go out of business . That's how the playing field will be evened out.If a d/c is in high demand now,, he has no worries for the future..



I have learned this lesson as well, especially in living in florida where handymen are a dime a dozen. I am trying an experiment where i give my bids a materials and cost list with pricings on them so the HO's can see where the money goes. It can help them decide on who is ripping them off, who is giving a cheap job and may make the quality not so good due to that contractor barely paying the help. I feel if i keep doing this, i can actually steal work from one of my greatest competitors due to his cheap price. I refuse to work for free. My company although i am a one man show, has overhead. You forgot to mention about replacing tools, costs of advertising, paying taxes, and making sure that i pay myself. The only way to do this is bid a job accordingly. When i do popcorn removals, i no longer go off of square footage alone, I ad up what all my materials can be and labor costs so i know what i will need to make by the end of the day. I send this out in the estimate and it has worked so far for two jobs i bid.


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## siddle (Apr 11, 2011)

MercuryArc said:


> This is a topic close to my heart. In July I had work booked through the end of October. I wasn't getting rich but I was making enough to pay bills and buy a new tool every job.
> I had a 400 sq. foot deck to build, even though it is not my specialty, but I can do it and didn't want to turn down the work. The fellow passed away. The next job ended up canceling and didn't want to spend the money this year. 6 weeks work gone all in one week.
> I got work for a month delivering anhydrous. Supposed to be 4 75 to 80 hr weeks. The OT would replace my loss of revenue. The weather didn't cooperate and it ended up being about 100 hrs. total and only 2 hrs. of overtime. Now I haven't got a bid since. I feel just like D-rock. I'm scared and nervous that I made a mistake 2 years ago going on my own.
> Luckily I have a CDL. What I've decided to do is take a temporary job through March driving. During this time I'm going to start lining up work for spring and quit trying to get by on $200 jobs and push it all to next year. I have one job booked and 3 bids to do. This may be my last stand. If by April I don't have atleast 3 months work booked, I'm seriously going to have to evaluate things.


Hows things going. I've been waiting for an update from your side.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

The_Texture_Guy said:


> I have learned this lesson as well, especially in living in florida where handymen are a dime a dozen. I am trying an experiment where i give my bids a materials and cost list with pricings on them so the HO's can see where the money goes. It can help them decide on who is ripping them off, who is giving a cheap job and may make the quality not so good due to that contractor barely paying the help. I feel if i keep doing this, i can actually steal work from one of my greatest competitors due to his cheap price. I refuse to work for free. My company although i am a one man show, has overhead. You forgot to mention about replacing tools, costs of advertising, paying taxes, and making sure that i pay myself. The only way to do this is bid a job accordingly. When i do popcorn removals, i no longer go off of square footage alone, I ad up what all my materials can be and labor costs so i know what i will need to make by the end of the day. I send this out in the estimate and it has worked so far for two jobs i bid.


Here the low ballers have no licenses or insurances . I know! Do they pay taxes ???? I know what your saying . Once you break It down for them . they get It. SOMETIMES !


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