# Cracks on butt joints



## johnny_bravo00

Hi all.

Signed up to this forum specifically to ask a question regarding my job and the reoccurring cracks on the butts. About me, Ive been doing commercial renovations for 15 years, now supervise a crew of 15-20. In my experience ive never seen cracks on so many sheets. 

A little about my job, this is the first building that has continuous high ceilings throughout. Ranging from 12-14.5' high. Ive used heavy gauge (20 gauge) metal track and studs, with 3 rows of U-channel stiffener. Fastened top and bottom, both sides. Walls sheeted with 4x12x5/8" non type X, for rigidity. 

I know my walls are not moving a mm. My taper continuously blames the walls saying that they are moving. When I know for a fact that they do not as no work is being done around them with the exception of the taping.

The cracks only appear on the butts of bottom 2 rows (sheets layed down and staggered) and never on the top rows.

Ive requested paper tape over the butts but don't think he has started using yet. Told me that hes using a S.R/mud mix for the first coat and straight mud for the next two coats. Mesh tape all around.

I need to get this sorted as now when he goes back over, it and we repaint. Recaracks. Builds out larger, re-prime, paint. recrack. This **** is putting me in the doghouse. New units with patches and the wall is built out so big on the butts. So much natural light as well. So unhappy..:furious:

PLEASE HELP!:yes:

Rant over....lol


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## mudslingr

Sounds like you built a solid wall.
Mesh on butts ? Really ! ?
Vibration ?
Is your bottom row touching the floor ? Floor heaving ?


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## johnny_bravo00

Its a large steel constructed building w/ polished concrete floors. We keep our sheets off of the floor about 1/2"-3/4", only due to the ease of installation. Between every beam the floor has a sag, but does not vibrate (under normal usage). No heaving.

I actually had to tell him to gauge out where the crack is before going over again. Would that not be normal practice? So the crack is filled and not just covered with another layer. 

Is it possible that its just the issue of having mesh over the butts?

Thanks for the feedback


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## gazman

Sorry to be blunt but. Mesh is for hacks. Use butt boards ( made by TrimTex) and real tape, problem solved.


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## johnny_bravo00

gazman said:


> Sorry to be blunt but. Mesh is for hacks. Use butt boards ( made by TrimTex) and real tape, problem solved.


I had to look into the "buttboard" system. New to me. Its Just a scab piece made out of OSB. I do see that its tapered inward which is nice. I would think to keep it put of a commercial application though. For 2 reasons for my job. 
1, people are constantly leaning up against the walls in places like hallways, a scab piece is not as rigid as a stud. 
2, cant use combustibles in my construction.

I agree about mesh. All of my previous tapers (actually only 2) over the past 10-12 years, refuse to use mesh. My new taper who was a union taper before working for us, hates mesh. For the obvious reason of mesh being quicker.


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## mudslingr

Try some of this for nasty butts. I made a video because I actually like the product.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BrG-vsKYA0


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## BOBTHEFIXER

Reason is MESH .. 

solution is Paper..


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## keke

the problem is neither the movement in the building not the mesh..... which I use a lot and never had a call back.....the problem is the mud and the way you hang....fix this 2 and you'll never have a problem again


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## johnny_bravo00

keke said:


> the problem is neither the movement in the building not the mesh..... which I use a lot and never had a call back.....the problem is the mud and the way you hang....fix this 2 and you'll never have a problem again


 Thanks keke, do you want to elaborate on "the way you hang". Are you Talking about hanging the drywall?


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## Sir Mixalot

Here's a tip to prevent the mud build up when you repair a butt joint> Remove the old tape> Re-secure drywall if needed> Now add new tape to the butt joint> When mudding the tape don't bust it out like a regular butt. keep the mud work mostly confined to the area where the failing tape was removed until the final skim coat. :thumbsup:


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## johnny_bravo00

Thanks for all the help guys. Ill print this thread off and kindly slip it into his paycheck envelope. lol,


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## Atomicdrywall

The only time I have seen cracks on butt joints is when the area is super heated with bin heaters.. 

Simple though if it's a problem just get the taper to put paper tape on the butt joints, he can still mesh everywhere else.

Won't cost much time.

Peace of mind is priceless though!


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## endo_alley

Mesh tape will always crack eventually on a butt joint. It you really must use mesh. double tape with two layers of mesh. It goes without saying, always cut out and prefill butt joints with setting compound prior to taping.


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## moore

That's weird it's just the butts on the bottom row. :blink:


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## Atomicdrywall

endo_alley said:


> Mesh tape will always crack eventually on a butt joint. It you really must use mesh. double tape with two layers of mesh. It goes without saying, always cut out and prefill butt joints with setting compound prior to taping.


How long are we waiting? My house is mesh and its 20 years old no cracking on butts. 

Ill conceived notion Imo.


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## keke

johnny_bravo00 said:


> Thanks keke, do you want to elaborate on "the way you hang". Are you Talking about hanging the drywall?


first - BACK BLOCKING
second - avoid to put the butt joint in sensitive areas

as you can see from this pic taken in my house, even the paper tape cracks if the butt joint is in a wrong spot

Sorry no recent pic, I do framing at the moment


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## gazman

Those backblocks dont look up to spec Keke. Check out page 31 of the CSR residential guide.

http://www.gyprock.com.au/Documents/GYPROCK-547-Residential_Installation_Guide-201111.pdf


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## keke

gazman said:


> Those backblocks dont look up to spec Keke. Check out page 31 of the CSR residential guide.
> 
> http://www.gyprock.com.au/Documents/GYPROCK-547-Residential_Installation_Guide-201111.pdf


it's too messy....that job was done long ago and I haven't had a call back.....and every day (when requested in the specs) I use the glue... cleaner than everything :thumbup: and still no cracks


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## Aussiecontractor

My apprentice says they use glue at TAFE for back blocking...
I use drywall base or cornice cement and trowel it on. Yes it's tricky not to drop mud everywhere when ya putting the sheets up but can be done all to do with mud consistency and application 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## gazman

If access permits back blocking with bb cement in the roof space is the best method. Two of us would get up, the little bloke would do the crawling and I would butter up the blocks and throw them too him. I reckon it is quicker too, you don't break your rhythm when hanging.


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## alltex

If your taper is using regular mud with mesh tape,get another taper,he's lazy! Don't use mesh,but if you must,he's hot mud with it.


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## Atomicdrywall

alltex said:


> If your taper is using regular mud with mesh tape,get another taper,he's lazy! Don't use mesh,but if you must,he's hot mud with it.


Mesh needs to be used in conjunction with a setting compound for your base coat. 

Nothing lazy about it, with the right materials, used in the correct fashion mesh is a viable option. 

I used mesh on my moms barn conversion 18 years ago, the ceilings and stud walls were taped but the rest was plastered... The ceilings and stud are still perfect no cracking what so ever! But the plaster areas are crack happy.


So that's 18 years plus...how long are we waiting? 

You should not dismiss something just because you don't know how to get the best out of it or just simply out of ignorance.


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## moore

Atomicdrywall said:


> So that's 18 years plus...how long are we waiting?


How close are you looking?


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## Lovin Drywall

*RE: Cracks in Butt joints*

To fix the cracks pull off the tape back to the board re screw the butt every 4 inches on both sides prefill the joint with setting compound then tape it with taping mud and paper tape if it still cracks after that its your building


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## Atomicdrywall

moore said:


> How close are you looking?


On a atomic level of course! :whistling2:

If a crack is invisible to the naked eye.... By all intent and purpose it's irrelevant. 

Hey, maybe it's the paint that's holding the boards together


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## johnny_bravo00

Atomicdrywall said:


> On a atomic level of course! :whistling2:
> 
> If a crack is invisible to the naked eye.... By all intent and purpose it's irrelevant.
> 
> Hey, maybe it's the paint that's holding the boards together


LOL, ill post up some pictures once I load them to my computer. 
That made me laugh.

Ive been doing this for long enough to know when to point something out, and when to let sleeping dogs lie. The cracks are visible, and the built up butt joints are enough to cast a shadow. This is a multi, multi-million dollar commercial renovation. I think having smooth should be expected.


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## johnny_bravo00

First picture: Just of a single crack as they start to appear.

Second picture: A main corridor hallway after the cracks have been gone over possibly 2 more times since the wall was originally done, now primed and painted (still looks like crap)

Third picture: Our newest build out in the building, and a show suite. My freshly painted walls, now with large mountains. Looks great....


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## VANMAN

johnny_bravo00 said:


> First picture: Just of a single crack as they start to appear.
> 
> Second picture: A main corridor hallway after the cracks have been gone over possibly 2 more times since the wall was originally done, now primed and painted (still looks like crap)
> 
> Third picture: Our newest build out in the building, and a show suite. My freshly painted walls, now with large mountains. Looks great....


That sure is some scary looking butt joints on that corridor wall!!


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## endo_alley

VANMAN said:


> That sure is some scary looking butt joints on that corridor wall!!


When they are that bad, you need a plastering rod to fix them.


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## johnny_bravo00

I know that there is a ton of natural light coming in which is not favorable when theres a long wall. Is this acceptable to anyone else. Should I be asking for a Level 5?


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## johnny_bravo00

alltex said:


> If your taper is using regular mud with mesh tape,get another taper,he's lazy! Don't use mesh,but if you must,he's hot mud with it.


 Use hot mud? Not sure I know this meaning? Like Sheetrock (cause it gets hot when setting)? :whistling2:


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## MrWillys

johnny_bravo00 said:


> Use hot mud? Not sure I know this meaning? Like Sheetrock (cause it gets hot when setting)? :whistling2:


Hot mud or fast set uses a hardener to dry faster.

http://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_...-joint-compounds-easy-sand-submittal-J621.pdf


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## Atomicdrywall

johnny_bravo00 said:


> I know that there is a ton of natural light coming in which is not favorable when theres a long wall. Is this acceptable to anyone else. Should I be asking for a Level 5?


It's crap... You can even see the main horizontal joint...

If the wall was flat how the hell did they manage to do that? 

It's such a simple job, WTF.


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## MrWillys

johnny_bravo00 said:


> I know that there is a ton of natural light coming in which is not favorable when theres a long wall. Is this acceptable to anyone else. Should I be asking for a Level 5?


Yes, the Gypsum Association recommends level 5 in all areas that receive natural lighting. Those butts should have been at least 30 to 36" wide. Cracks mean movement or incorrect compound and slight movement. USG 093 control joint is the only solution and is recommended for every 30' of wall.

Beware of low bidder in drywall and once you find a good contractor keep him happy. Same with good painters.


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## mudslingercor

I only read the first couple post and my 2 cents... Mesh is garbage!!! How do people keep using it? Here someone pulls out mesh and they get thrown off site. Its the equivalent too pulling out a shovel to spread mud.


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## moore

johnny_bravo00 said:


> I know that there is a ton of natural light coming in which is not favorable when theres a long wall. Is this acceptable to anyone else. Should I be asking for a Level 5?


You need to find someone that knows how to finish a butt joint :whistling2:


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## johnny_bravo00

moore said:


> You need to find someone that knows how to finish a butt joint :whistling2:


Anybody looking for a job in Toronto Canada that's confident there work is superior to my shadow casting butts?


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## moore

johnny_bravo00 said:


> Anybody looking for a job in Toronto Canada that's confident there work is superior to my shadow casting butts?


Good finishers aren't hard to find.. you just need to find a few GOOD general contractors and fin d out who they use.


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## gazman

That wall would have been the perfect place for the rebate mate. Duel layered fire assembly makes other methods such as butt boards and bent battens impossible. I am not saying that a good finisher shouldn't be able to hid those butts the normal way, but the rebate mate would make it a breeze.


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## thefinisher

You should have gone with a level 5 anyway. Any paint used other than flat over a level 4 finish will have problems. Yeah the butts are humped but if things got legal you would lose. All that light combined with shiny paint is a no no


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## Aussiecontractor

Woah them butts need to Be feathered out big time, you only have to do level 5 if builder/head contractor specifies that is what's required.. If they haven't and you see an area which you think requires it, point it out and tell them there may be issues . Then they have the choice to do it or not. And like mr willys said expansion joint every 10m 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## keke

johnny_bravo00 said:


> First picture: Just of a single crack as they start to appear.
> 
> Second picture: A main corridor hallway after the cracks have been gone over possibly 2 more times since the wall was originally done, now primed and painted (still looks like crap)
> 
> Third picture: Our newest build out in the building, and a show suite. My freshly painted walls, now with large mountains. Looks great....





gazman said:


> That wall would have been the perfect place for the rebate mate. Duel layered fire assembly makes other methods such as butt boards and bent battens impossible. I am not saying that a good finisher shouldn't be able to hid those butts the normal way, but the rebate mate would make it a breeze.


I agree with you Gaz......I will include that on bad hanging category


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## jackleg

if you tape over crack you are just adding more height to joint. must pull out original tape, get down to bare board, and refinish....


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## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> Yes, the Gypsum Association recommends level 5 in all areas that receive natural lighting. Those butts should have been at least 30 to 36" wide. Cracks mean movement or incorrect compound and slight movement. USG 093 control joint is the only solution and is recommended for every 30' of wall.
> 
> Beware of low bidder in drywall and once you find a good contractor keep him happy. Same with good painters.


Actually, the butts need whatever a straight edge tells us they need. If you do not recess the butts ahead of time with shims , buttboards, or whatever, then you must coat them with enough skillfully placed mud such that a straight edge like a plastering rod, shows them to be sufficiently flat as not to show. If a plastering rod down the center of the joint rocks, you may need to try and remove some excess mud over the joint. If that is not possible, I will often glue two parallel rows of shims (and parallel to the bad joint) to the wall a plastering rod's distance apart, with the bad joint centered between the rows of shims. I will load the area between the shims with mud and screed the wall off the shims with a rod. Then pull the shims and screed each side to taper the buildup. That is a lot of work. But sometimes nothing else will work.


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## moore

endo_alley said:


> Actually, the butts need whatever a straight edge tells us they need. If you do not recess the butts ahead of time with shims , buttboards, or whatever, then you must coat them with enough skillfully placed mud such that a straight edge like a plastering rod, shows them to be sufficiently flat as not to show. If a plastering rod down the center of the joint rocks, you may need to try and remove some excess mud over the joint. If that is not possible, I will often glue two parallel rows of shims (and parallel to the bad joint) to the wall a plastering rod's distance apart, with the bad joint centered between the rows of shims. I will load the area between the shims with mud and screed the wall off the shims with a rod. Then pull the shims and screed each side to taper the buildup. That is a lot of work. But sometimes nothing else will work.



Your right! That Is a lot of work! :whistling2:


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## VANMAN

When it comes down to it the taper/finisher is doing a sh*t job going by that butts! The boarders r to blame for some but that finisher should b sacked!:thumbsup:


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## VANMAN

endo_alley said:


> Actually, the butts need whatever a straight edge tells us they need. If you do not recess the butts ahead of time with shims , buttboards, or whatever, then you must coat them with enough skillfully placed mud such that a straight edge like a plastering rod, shows them to be sufficiently flat as not to show. If a plastering rod down the center of the joint rocks, you may need to try and remove some excess mud over the joint. If that is not possible, I will often glue two parallel rows of shims (and parallel to the bad joint) to the wall a plastering rod's distance apart, with the bad joint centered between the rows of shims. I will load the area between the shims with mud and screed the wall off the shims with a rod. Then pull the shims and screed each side to taper the buildup. That is a lot of work. But sometimes nothing else will work.


U really do that????
F*ck that carry on!
Its only meant to be a paper tape we cover not Mount Everest:thumbup:
Its all down to the framers/Boarders!


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## Atomicdrywall

VANMAN said:


> U really do that????
> F*ck that carry on!
> Its only meant to be a paper tape we cover not Mount Everest:thumbup:
> Its all down to the framers/Boarders!


Umm, if the wall is flat, a butt joint should not be build out too far as the WHOLE POINT of our job is keeping things as flat as possible.

In reality of course tape and joint is more about the illusion of a flat and true surface but we must at the very least maintain the viability of this illusion. 

We fill out tapered edges and cover tapes... If you over complicate this VERY SIMPLE process you are totally undermining the fundamental objectives of the system.


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## krem

is it shiny paint or just the reflection of the polished floor on the wall??
either way, them joins look pretty shabby, try some wallpaper to hide it all :thumbup:
im a bit on the fence, yeah mesh tape (we call it sticky tape, cause its sticky!!) is ****, its really for the home handy man here, but in saying that, mesh is only around .5mm thick, then joins look built out by atleast 3-5mm, wtf happened??
and if its only on the bottom 2 rows?? wtf there too??
get some fibafuse tape, or paper tape, use basecoat to run the tapes in, shouldnt have a problem after that!!
krem


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## endo_alley

moore said:


> Your right! That Is a lot of work! :whistling2:


Effing right. That is why a few well placed cardboard shims on the part of the hangers is the only way to go if you want a good job. Cardboard is much cheaper than mud. But if crooked framing is not properly shimmed or planed, and someone is willing pay you (the finisher) to make it perfect, that is the method.


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## gordie

It is a steel framed wall you don't need to back block , or cardboard shim . Tapers can make walls look great on wood builds there is no excuse for those butts. I know Keke has to back block where he is and I bet it does work great and so would butt boards but come on steel is straight and your not going to have that much expansion in days . There is a top track you are suposed to use for heavy gauge walls it has slots in it you screw to so your studs don't get affected buy expansion and contraction if you didn't use this it might cause cracks but not that quick and on every but joint . Your taper is crap replace him immediately make sure you Frame properly different building's require different products and specs I don't asks why. It's not important to me time is. You just need to ask a guy like Willy he'll tell you what ya need then you just do a good job and so will the new taper. O I love when taper say I should have shimmed walls because they always forget to mention the pay cut they will take to pay me 👍.


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## jackleg

regardless of tapers skills, the sunlight cascading down the hall will always cause issues... even if board was stood up, you would still see the seams.. not even level 5 would fix this scenario. you could probably see the screws, too...


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## endo_alley

gordie said:


> It is a steel framed wall you don't need to back block , or cardboard shim . Tapers can make walls look great on wood builds there is no excuse for those butts. I know Keke has to back block where he is and I bet it does work great and so would butt boards but come on steel is straight and your not going to have that much expansion in days . There is a top track you are suposed to use for heavy gauge walls it has slots in it you screw to so your studs don't get affected buy expansion and contraction if you didn't use this it might cause cracks but not that quick and on every but joint . Your taper is crap replace him immediately make sure you Frame properly different building's require different products and specs I don't asks why. It's not important to me time is. You just need to ask a guy like Willy he'll tell you what ya need then you just do a good job and so will the new taper. O I love when taper say I should have shimmed walls because they always forget to mention the pay cut they will take to pay me &#55357;&#56397;.


Even on steel which is supposed to be straight, you can have some problems. My biggest gripe is when a hack hanger twists a stud on a butt joint or outside corner, or on a stand up, and in doing so makes straight framing crooked. Then there are all of the crooked P rings and scabs in the framing from other trades. And protection plates. Don't get me started on those things. Where headers connect to walls you have track flange over stud with some pan heads sticking out to boot. That is why on an extremely critical wall, even in steel, we will sometimes (if being paid to do so, cuz money talks) shim the entire wall. No shims by butt joints, outside corners, protection plates, or scabs. Helps flatten things a little.


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## endo_alley

jackleg said:


> regardless of tapers skills, the sunlight cascading down the hall will always cause issues... even if board was stood up, you would still see the seams.. not even level 5 would fix this scenario. you could probably see the screws, too...


You have to flatten the wall out. Check with a straight edge. Dead nuts.


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## johnny_bravo00

I think many of you are not reading all of the posts from the beginning. I can assure anyone that the walls are dead plum, and also not moving. This building is a steel constructed building from the 70's. There is no settling or shifting. No uplift, or downward pressure. My company has done many renovations in this scale in similar builds with great success. We've kept on the payroll 1 fulltime taper over the past 15+ years and sub'd in as needed. done so with great success. We do multi year long renovations start to finish and have pride in our work. Worked my way from the bottom and have done it all (and seen it all). My o.p asks about the cracks on the butts, this is the first time I've encountered continuous butts cracking. Not that I haven't seen this happen the odd time before. But on almost every single joint, that's a red flag. Time to ask the tapers! I was confident before hand this was a taper error due to mesh/straight mud, but wanted multi opinion's before making a call. The butts look giant because the taper has gone over them multiple times. Im not looking for a sheet of glass, but do require something presentable. If plasterers don't complain about having to make a wall on top of hundreds of tiny slats smooth, I don't think im asking too much out of a taper to give me a "presentable" wall.:whistling2:


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## thefinisher

Did the taper admit to using regular mud on the mesh?? Quite honestly it doesn't matter if he used paper or mesh as either method is fine per USG handbook. Just gotta use the right mud to embed the tape. At this point there isn't much you can do except sue him, but honestly you would probably lose. Yes he may have been able to do a better job but who is to say paper tape wouldn't have cracked here? I say move on and hire a new Finisher.


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## Atomicdrywall

You have a butt joint on a flat wall, you put a tape on it mesh or paper makes no difference if used in conjunction with the correct compounds.. You the apply a amount of compound to ' hide' the tape.. Then simply a small amount to present a uniform surface to paint on...

What's so hard?? So complicated?? 

If you over load the joint you don't make it stronger all you do is build it out and create a problem for yourself. 

We want flat walls! We cover tape and fill recessions, nothing more! 

I must of missed the memo about this being a hard job. There is a lot of over complication going on, a fundamental lack of understanding of what the job is.


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## MrWillys

Atomicdrywall said:


> You have a butt joint on a flat wall, you put a tape on it mesh or paper makes no difference if used in conjunction with the correct compounds.. You the apply a amount of compound to ' hide' the tape.. Then simply a small amount to present a uniform surface to paint on...
> 
> What's so hard?? So complicated??
> 
> If you over load the joint you don't make it stronger all you do is build it out and create a problem for yourself.
> 
> We want flat walls! We cover tape and fill recessions, nothing more!
> 
> I must of missed the memo about this being a hard job. There is a lot of over complication going on, a fundamental lack of understanding of what the job is.


 The problem is when it gets direct lighting on it and then less than 1/8" build creates shadows even after level 5. Level 5 only makes sure you don't get paint shadowing. It is just drywall but try telling that to construction executives is a problem in and of itself.

It's similar to specs calling for concrete to be 1/8" in any 10' direction. It just isn't going to happen even with a laser screed.


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## Atomicdrywall

MrWillys said:


> The problem is when it gets direct lighting on it and then less than 1/8" build creates shadows even after level 5. Level 5 only makes sure you don't get paint shadowing. It is just drywall but try telling that to construction executives is a problem in and of itself.
> 
> It's similar to specs calling for concrete to be 1/8" in any 10' direction. It just isn't going to happen even with a laser screed.


The compound and the paper surface of the board differs in its nature. This is unavoidable! You can go down the road of level 5 like you say but really it's not that much better imo at least it's not 'perfect' as you rightly point out. 

What needs to be remembered is it ment to be fast and convenient, if your going to spend weeks doing it you might as well plaster the walls with much much better compounds than drywall ready mix.


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## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> The problem is when it gets direct lighting on it and then less than 1/8" build creates shadows even after level 5. Level 5 only makes sure you don't get paint shadowing. It is just drywall but try telling that to construction executives is a problem in and of itself.
> 
> It's similar to specs calling for concrete to be 1/8" in any 10' direction. It just isn't going to happen even with a laser screed.


This post was about cracks in joints that have been mesh taped. That is a given. No mesh tape on continuous joints. But as for walls with a lot of parallel lighting, merely splitting out a butt joint doesn't cut it. The butt joints need to be recessed before tape is applied. After taping the recessed butt joints must be filled in flat. Very little margin for error. That is why we use some kind of straight edge to be sure of it. After it has been flattened, the joint must also be made smooth. If it is not flat or not smooth, it will show after paint.


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## Atomicdrywall

endo_alley said:


> This post was about cracks in joints that have been mesh taped. That is a given. No mesh tape on continuous joints. But as for walls with a lot of parallel lighting, merely splitting out a butt joint doesn't cut it. The butt joints need to be recessed before tape is applied. After taping the recessed butt joints must be filled in flat. Very little margin for error. That is why we use some kind of straight edge to be sure of it. After it has been flattened, the joint must also be made smooth. If it is not flat or not smooth, it will show after paint.


This would be nice, never happens in the uk, in fact a good few butt joints peek if anything that's before you have put a tape on them.


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## VANMAN

Atomicdrywall said:


> This would be nice, never happens in the uk, in fact a good few butt joints peek if anything that's before you have put a tape on them.


I asked a site agent why the d*ckhead boarders don't shim some of the boards out and was told u don't shim out plasterboard!:furious:
X joiner of course!!


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## keke

johnny_bravo00 said:


> I can assure anyone that the walls are dead plum, and also not moving. This building is a steel constructed building from the 70's. There is no settling or shifting. No uplift, or downward pressure...... My o.p asks about the cracks on the butts, this is the first time I've encountered continuous butts cracking. Not that I haven't seen this happen the odd time before. But on almost every single joint, that's a red flag.


As a recap: if your taper uses proper material you have to go back to hanging... you have to move the butts from that sensitive area

You don't have to be worry about moving and shifting ( only if you have a really crappy framer), pay attention to vibrations too ( inside the ceiling you have ducts for air con, you have traffic on the street, you know what tram & truck vibrations mean)

So again try moving that butts and see if it works
Good luck


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## krem

johnny_bravo00 said:


> I think many of you are not reading all of the posts from the beginning. I can assure anyone that the walls are dead plum, and also not moving. This building is a steel constructed building from the 70's. There is no settling or shifting. No uplift, or downward pressure. My company has done many renovations in this scale in similar builds with great success. We've kept on the payroll 1 fulltime taper over the past 15+ years and sub'd in as needed. done so with great success. We do multi year long renovations start to finish and have pride in our work. Worked my way from the bottom and have done it all (and seen it all). My o.p asks about the cracks on the butts, this is the first time I've encountered continuous butts cracking. Not that I haven't seen this happen the odd time before. But on almost every single joint, that's a red flag. Time to ask the tapers! I was confident before hand this was a taper error due to mesh/straight mud, but wanted multi opinion's before making a call. The butts look giant because the taper has gone over them multiple times. Im not looking for a sheet of glass, but do require something presentable. If plasterers don't complain about having to make a wall on top of hundreds of tiny slats smooth, I don't think im asking too much out of a taper to give me a "presentable" wall.:whistling2:


ok, i havent done any commercial work before, and i hope i dont in the future, lol, 
but i can assure you, metal will ,move, a friend of mine built a steel framed home around 9 yrs ago, and he still says it creaks and groans all the time, its the metal shrinking and expanding with heat, and it dont take much heat for it to move a little, if its 3 (celsious) over night and then around 15 by mid morning, he says its noisy as!!
i have been around many times to fix cracks in cornice mitres and popped screw heads, 
your problem is figuring out why only the bottom butts broke, not the top 1s, unless the tops are half sheets and are then screwed closer together and have more strength maybe??
do you guys glue the butt or simply screw the butt (man that sounds wrong ), maybe the hangers didnt screw it off enough or just glues it, allowing it to move a little as the glue dried??
either or, get rid of the mesh in my opinion!!
hope you can sort it out
krem


----------



## endo_alley

Atomicdrywall said:


> This would be nice, never happens in the uk, in fact a good few butt joints peek if anything that's before you have put a tape on them.


I understand. Labor is money. Money is scarce. Nobody wants to spend it. I am merely explaining how things must be done if you want the best quality product in the most critical areas. If a client is too cheap to pay for the best quality, no problem. Be happy with what you get.


----------



## gordie

No question that would work well endo .but your right on nobody wants to pay for shims so nobody gets em I keep a roll of trim text shim is great to have but I only use it to help me rather than waiting for crap framing or poorly planning of light boxes . O and when I make a mistake on my layout lol it happens😴. That said if any one pays me I'll suggest your way bro it would work good . O I still say any decent taper could do better than this job I've worked with lots they always seem to getter done without to much crying 😢 no shims just walls it can be done.


----------



## johnny_bravo00

keke said:


> As a recap: if your taper uses proper material you have to go back to hanging... you have to move the butts from that sensitive area
> 
> You don't have to be worry about moving and shifting ( only if you have a really crappy framer), pay attention to vibrations too ( inside the ceiling you have ducts for air con, you have traffic on the street, you know what tram & truck vibrations mean)
> 
> So again try moving that butts and see if it work s
> Good luck


 Thanks for the input again keke,
The problem is not just as in that one picture. Its pretty much throughout the building typical to that picture. Ive addressed the taper to just scrap the mesh tape, and move on to only paper tape. Sure, there will be some light vibrations as you point out. No structure is entirely exempt from movement, but its minimal. We've renovated large scale old wooden building and turned into high end office space. All floor creeky and still without this problem. Not looking to point blame at taping, but in this case I know it is. I was trying to pinpoint the problem and fix it.:yes:


----------



## johnny_bravo00

krem said:


> ok, i havent done any commercial work before, and i hope i dont in the future, lol,
> but i can assure you, metal will ,move, a friend of mine built a steel framed home around 9 yrs ago, and he still says it creaks and groans all the time, its the metal shrinking and expanding with heat, and it dont take much heat for it to move a little, if its 3 (celsious) over night and then around 15 by mid morning, he says its noisy as!!
> i have been around many times to fix cracks in cornice mitres and popped screw heads,
> your problem is figuring out why only the bottom butts broke, not the top 1s, unless the tops are half sheets and are then screwed closer together and have more strength maybe??
> do you guys glue the butt or simply screw the butt (man that sounds wrong ), maybe the hangers didnt screw it off enough or just glues it, allowing it to move a little as the glue dried??
> either or, get rid of the mesh in my opinion!!
> hope you can sort it out
> krem


 All wall Butts get 5 screws. And yes when were talking about "screwing butts" and having "issues with butt cracks" theres no way around the comic relief. 

I pointed the fact that the bottom sheets were more likely to crack out because I thought that would help someone possibly pinpoint the problem. I was thinking maybe when you can work from the ground youre more likely to want to move ahead faster. Thus using straight mud > leading to cracks? I don't know. Not many people addressed that. Regardless. My taper is using paper tape now on the butts. waiting game now.


----------



## keke

krem said:


> ok, i havent done any commercial work before, and i hope i dont in the future, lol,
> but i can assure you, metal will ,move, a friend of mine built a steel framed home around 9 yrs ago, and he still says it creaks and groans all the time, its the metal shrinking and expanding with heat, and it dont take much heat for it to move a little, if its 3 (celsious) over night and then around 15 by mid morning, he says its noisy as!!
> i have been around many times to fix cracks in cornice mitres and popped screw heads,


a steel framed house is just a cheap copy of a commercial job.i hope one day you'll do some commercial jobs ... to see the difference between your mate's house and proper steel work...believe me there's no room for noise in commercial- of course you need to use proper studs & we don't use 10 mm boards and cheap insulation 

Movement - forget about that - imagine how much steel and concrete goes in.... on one of my jobs, they cut the slab (25% of the floor) to install stairs between levels and needed 200 tones beams with bolts at 100mm to hold the building together.

My advice for you is to look for some commercial jobs just to see the difference and learn new things.... look at it as a chalange to improve


----------



## endo_alley

keke said:


> a steel framed house is just a cheap copy of a commercial job.i hope one day you'll do some commercial jobs ... to see the difference between your mate's house and proper steel work...believe me there's no room for noise in commercial- of course you need to use proper studs & we don't use 10 mm boards and cheap insulation
> 
> Movement - forget about that - imagine how much steel and concrete goes in.... on one of my jobs, they cut the slab (25% of the floor) to install stairs between levels and needed 200 tones beams with bolts at 100mm to hold the building together.
> 
> My advice for you is to look for some commercial jobs just to see the difference and learn new things.... look at it as a chalange to improve


Actually, there is quite often some movement engineered into large commercial construction buildings. The engineers and construction methods take expansion and contraction into account. I think we have had posts about that before. But I really would concentrate on eliminating the mesh tape before I would question the engineering of the buildings in question to explain drywall cracking. Changing from a type of joint tape with a track record for cracking to a better taping method is the lowest hanging fruit. Try that first.


----------



## MrWillys

This is in every spec I've ever read. While I blame the finisher in this situation it doesn't lessen this requirement.

http://www.clarkdietrich.com/products/093-zinc-control-joint


----------



## johnny_bravo00

endo_alley said:


> Actually, there is quite often some movement engineered into large commercial construction buildings. The engineers and construction methods take expansion and contraction into account. I think we have had posts about that before. But I really would concentrate on eliminating the mesh tape before I would question the engineering of the buildings in question to explain drywall cracking. Changing from a type of joint tape with a track record for cracking to a better taping method is the lowest hanging fruit. Try that first.


 Yup, hes trying. As I stated before, Ive only had this taper for about a year. My previous taper was like family, we worked together for so long. Never had this issue. He's since moved. 

And youre right. the engineers do take movement into consideration. We also opened up large windows surrounding this building. At the top of the vertical supports we put in to hold the existing façade, we put vertical slip joints for the expansion/contraction. Weather or not they're utilized, they have to be there. :yes:

^ that said, my cracked butts were not cause by building expansion. lol


----------



## moore

Did they stack that wall? Was the bottom run laid on the concrete floors? Or had this already been mentioned? If I had to.level 5 every wall with God's light shining across it I'd of had to L5 every other wall in every home I've ever worked on!! And you've been using this finisher for a year??:blink: without noticing how bad his finish is? And I'm just judging him from a pic....I'd hate to see it in person!:blink:


----------



## Sir Mixalot

Did they sand through the fiberglass tape when they were trying to get rid of the hump?

I'd say you'll have to float out those butts real wide and then skim the whole wall else it will flash out when you paint it with sheen again.


----------



## keke

endo_alley said:


> Actually, there is quite often some movement engineered into large commercial construction buildings. The engineers and construction methods take expansion and contraction into account.


 All big buildings must have movement to stay up but it's different for this reason I said steel framed house is a cheap copy of commercial


----------



## MrWillys

keke said:


> All big buildings must have movement to stay up but it's different for this reason I said steel framed house is a cheap copy of commercial


This may stray a bit off thread topic so my apologies.

In the US this would be quite opposite. our commercial is typically light gauge non load bearing whereas our steel framed residential (very rare in the US) is heavy gauge structural self supporting. Most homes here are wood framed. While we do have some heavy gauge framing at exterior walls in our highrise construction it is typically not load bearing. I did frame a 3 story Hotel once that was all structural metal stud welded with X bracing and box headers.

Yeah, real drywaller can hang and finish??? Hah freaking hah! Real drywaller can read plans!


----------



## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> This may stray a bit off thread topic so my apologies.
> 
> In the US this would be quite opposite. our commercial is typically light gauge non load bearing whereas our steel framed residential (very rare in the US) is heavy gauge structural self supporting. Most homes here are wood framed. While we do have some heavy gauge framing at exterior walls in our highrise construction it is typically not load bearing. I did frame a 3 story Hotel once that was all structural metal stud welded with X bracing and box headers.
> 
> Yeah, real drywaller can hang and finish??? Hah freaking hah! Real drywaller can read plans!


 Real drywaller can read ?


----------



## johnny_bravo00

moore said:


> Did they stack that wall? Was the bottom run laid on the concrete floors? Or had this already been mentioned? If I had to.level 5 every wall with God's light shining across it I'd of had to L5 every other wall in every home I've ever worked on!! And you've been using this finisher for a year??:blink: without noticing how bad his finish is? And I'm just judging him from a pic....I'd hate to see it in person!:blink:


 Never lay the sheets directly on the floors. Always up about half inch from the highest point. And yes its been about a year, not un-noticed tho. just getting to my breaking point. Would never can a person for one or two mistakes. But a trending **** up after being discussed would outweigh my patience. As far as speed > average. Until you add up the amount of extra work being done to go over the already finished walls.


----------



## gordie

MrWillys said:


> This may stray a bit off thread topic so my apologies.
> 
> In the US this would be quite opposite. our commercial is typically light gauge non load bearing whereas our steel framed residential (very rare in the US) is heavy gauge structural self supporting. Most homes here are wood framed. While we do have some heavy gauge framing at exterior walls in our highrise construction it is typically not load bearing. I did frame a 3 story Hotel once that was all structural metal stud welded with X bracing and box headers.
> 
> Yeah, real drywaller can hang and finish??? Hah freaking hah! Real drywaller can read plans!


Well I'm able to understand plans enough to figure out the legend and break down the wall system required am I hired😉


----------



## gordie

O I did miss the shimming walls part o well she shouldn't burn down at least


----------



## moore

endo_alley said:


> Real drywaller can read ?


Can you repeat that? :blink:


----------



## endo_alley

moore said:


> Can you repeat that? :blink:


A joke. I say that's a joke son. That's a joke.


----------



## MrWillys

endo_alley said:


> A joke. I say that's a joke son. That's a joke.


You're a joke, and I laughed. Care to make a credible argument then go for it.


----------



## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> You're a joke, and I laughed. Care to make a credible argument then go for it.


Yeah, I was poking fun at all these "dumb drywaller" jabs I have heard over the years. Usually they were made (I hope) in good natured fun to get a rise out of me. Like a painter or electrician saying - 'Whada you know about anything? Your a drywaller. All you need is a size 60 jacket and a size 6 hat." Or "That boy is as strong as a Ox. And near as smart" (Froghorn Leghorn) Or an owner saying "So, you must be a drywaller?" To which I might say " Yeah but it's not really as exciting as you probably think". Stuff like that.


----------



## MrWillys

endo_alley said:


> Yeah, I was poking fun at all these "dumb drywaller" jabs I have heard over the years. Usually they were made (I hope) in good natured fun to get a rise out of me. Like a painter or electrician saying - 'Whada you know about anything? Your a drywaller. All you need is a size 60 jacket and a size 6 hat." Or "That boy is as strong as a Ox. And near as smart" (Froghorn Leghorn) Or an owner saying "So, you must be a drywaller?" To which I might say " Yeah but it's not really as exciting as you probably think". Stuff like that.


I never bought into this and as I got older I realized that a good painter or finisher is every bit as good if not better than an electrician. I've taken all the trades course work over the years and held certification's in Electrical, Building and Mechanical. My last job we had two Mexican laborers and one was really nice and the other was kind of standoffish. However, he had some of the greatest ideas and would floor me on occasion. While I thank the old electrician that taught me to wire my house when I was young I do not put them up on a pedestal.

Hence, I try to avoid stereotyping as my father taught me many years ago. MLK got this one right and judge others by the content of their character. Takes all of us to make the world go round.

Is this dumb?

http://www.scotthansen.net/equation.html

I'm a drywaller!


----------



## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> I never bought into this and as I got older I realized that a good painter or finisher is every bit as good if not better than an electrician. I've taken all the trades course work over the years and held certification's in Electrical, Building and Mechanical. My last job we had two Mexican laborers and one was really nice and the other was kind of standoffish. However, he had some of the greatest ideas and would floor me on occasion. While I thank the old electrician that taught me to wire my house when I was young I do not put them up on a pedestal.
> 
> Hence, I try to avoid stereotyping as my father taught me many years ago. MLK got this one right and judge others by the content of their character. Takes all of us to make the world go round.
> 
> Is this dumb?
> 
> http://www.scotthansen.net/equation.html
> 
> I'm a drywaller!


It was a little self deprecating humor. When you said "Yeah, real drywaller can hang and finish??? Hah freaking hah! Real drywaller can read plans!" I had to poke a little fun as if I were one of the other trades people on the job messing with the drywaller. Obviously not meant to be taken literally. I have good friends who are architects and structural engineers. After they have had their fun jabbing the drywaller, they ask me to figure a way to fix the mess they have made.


----------



## moore

MrWillys said:


> I never bought into this and as I got older I realized that a good painter or finisher is every bit as good if not better than an electrician. I've taken all the trades course work over the years and held certification's in Electrical, Building and Mechanical. My last job we had two Mexican laborers and one was really nice and the other was kind of standoffish. However, he had some of the greatest ideas and would floor me on occasion. While I thank the old electrician that taught me to wire my house when I was young I do not put them up on a pedestal.
> 
> Hence, I try to avoid stereotyping as my father taught me many years ago. MLK got this one right and judge others by the content of their character. Takes all of us to make the world go round.
> 
> Is this dumb?
> 
> http://www.scotthansen.net/equation.html
> I'm a drywaller!


 I think I got my name right ..:blink:


----------



## MrWillys

moore said:


> I think I got my name right ..:blink:


It's actually quite simple and I used it all the time doing layout. I pushed it even harder when I taught. 3' on direction and 4' the other will always be 5' in between or A & B squared will always equal C squared.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem

For some reason I'm good with math. Unlike you I have very little artistic talent other than I can sing. I sang a solo in 8th grade in front of the entire school. Ezekiel saw the wheel.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

endo_alley said:


> Yeah, I was poking fun at all these "dumb drywaller" jabs I have heard over the years. Usually they were made (I hope) in good natured fun to get a rise out of me. Like a painter or electrician saying - 'Whada you know about anything? Your a drywaller. All you need is a size 60 jacket and a size 6 hat." Or "That boy is as strong as a Ox. And near as smart" (Froghorn Leghorn) Or an owner saying "So, you must be a drywaller?" To which I might say " Yeah but it's not really as exciting as you probably think". Stuff like that.


hey what do you call 10 boarders in a basement....

Wine cellar:jester:


----------



## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> It's actually quite simple and I used it all the time doing layout. I pushed it even harder when I taught. 3' on direction and 4' the other will always be 5' in between or A & B squared will always equal C squared.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem
> 
> For some reason I'm good with math. Unlike you I have very little artistic talent other than I can sing. I sang a solo in 8th grade in front of the entire school. Ezekiel saw the wheel.



a (square) + b (squared) = (c squared ) where a and be are adjacent sides of a right triangle, and c is the hypotenuse of the right triangle. your drawing of a room may work where you are from. But here in Colorado the side walls are framed so out of plumb, you can pretty much assume that the floor to wall angle is not exactly 90 degrees.


----------



## endo_alley

Another good drywall problem is, when given the width, spring point, and height of a round arch, calculate the radius of the arch. If the arch is parabolic, what is the radius? We use to do a lot of arches. Not so popular any more. I don't think this really will help cracked butt joints though.


----------



## MrWillys

endo_alley said:


> Another good drywall problem is, when given the width, spring point, and height of a round arch, calculate the radius of the arch. If the arch is parabolic, what is the radius? We use to do a lot of arches. Not so popular any more. I don't think this really will help cracked butt joints though.


The radius is the height or half the width?


----------



## Atomicdrywall

Bazooka-Joe said:


> hey what do you call 10 boarders in a basement....
> 
> Wine cellar:jester:


Put a PA system down there and it becomes a gay disco..

Ya'll would love it, instead of talking endlessly about butts you could get on and feel some...m


----------



## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> The radius is the height or half the width?


This gets back to reading . According to my post if you read it, I don't know the radius. I have rise/run of circular arch. No more. Just like with blueprints. They give you rise. They give you run. But to build it you need the radius. Which the plans don't ever give you. Answer. 


(Rise)squared + (Span/2) squared
____________________________
2 x Rise


----------



## krem

MrWillys said:


> This may stray a bit off thread topic so my apologies.
> 
> In the US this would be quite opposite. our commercial is typically light gauge non load bearing whereas our steel framed residential (very rare in the US) is heavy gauge structural self supporting. Most homes here are wood framed. While we do have some heavy gauge framing at exterior walls in our highrise construction it is typically not load bearing. I did frame a 3 story Hotel once that was all structural metal stud welded with X bracing and box headers.
> 
> Yeah, real drywaller can hang and finish??? Hah freaking hah! Real drywaller can read plans!


haha, man im not much of a "drywaller" then, i can read AND write :thumbup: well my name atleast!! 
i just seriously cant understand the logic and thinking behind having "hanger or boarders" and "tapers or trowlers", man here where i work, we do the lot, hang, stop up, sand and cornice, i even assess the plans and do the quotes, but i guess thats just cottage work or residencial, wat ever you guys call it so its a bit easier.
there is a guy locally who does the whole "pay ppl off the street **** money to hang sheet and pay tradies **** money to fix it all" thing, he is a multi millionaire so i guess it works, altho he has the worst name for quality going around!!
krem


----------



## MrWillys

krem said:


> haha, man im not much of a "drywaller" then, i can read AND write :thumbup: well my name atleast!!
> i just seriously cant understand the logic and thinking behind having "hanger or boarders" and "tapers or trowlers", man here where i work, we do the lot, hang, stop up, sand and cornice, i even assess the plans and do the quotes, but i guess thats just cottage work or residencial, wat ever you guys call it so its a bit easier.
> there is a guy locally who does the whole "pay ppl off the street **** money to hang sheet and pay tradies **** money to fix it all" thing, he is a multi millionaire so i guess it works, altho he has the worst name for quality going around!!
> krem


 If it works for you then more power to you sir!


----------



## MrWillys

endo_alley said:


> This gets back to reading . According to my post if you read it, I don't know the radius. I have rise/run of circular arch. No more. Just like with blueprints. They give you rise. They give you run. But to build it you need the radius. Which the plans don't ever give you. Answer.
> 
> 
> (Rise)squared + (Span/2) squared
> ____________________________
> 2 x Rise


I realize you're trying to make a point here but I don't get it?

Math order of operation

Please = Parentheses
Excuse = Exponents
My = Multipication
Dear = Division
Aunt = Addition
Sally = Subtraction

Using a rise and run of 4 / 12 how does the above equation find a radius?


----------



## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> I realize you're trying to make a point here but I don't get it?
> 
> Math order of operation
> 
> Please = Parentheses
> Excuse = Exponents
> My = Multipication
> Dear = Division
> Aunt = Addition
> Sally = Subtraction
> 
> Using a rise and run of 4 / 12 how does the above equation find a radius?


This dialogue box does not allow for super script, as is often necessary for a mathematical formula. Here is what the architect gives you.


----------



## endo_alley

The architect gives you AB, and S. But you need the radius (R) to draw the arch.


----------



## endo_alley

I hope you don't mind the pun when I say we have really gone off on a tangent here.


----------



## MrWillys

endo_alley said:


> This gets back to reading . According to my post if you read it, I don't know the radius. I have rise/run of circular arch. No more. Just like with blueprints. They give you rise. They give you run. But to build it you need the radius. Which the plans don't ever give you. Answer.
> 
> 
> (Rise)squared + (Span/2) squared
> ____________________________
> 2 x Rise





endo_alley said:


> The architect gives you AB, and S. But you need the radius (R) to draw the arch.


Okay, but put it in the format shown above? Also, if you know the hypotenuse then the radius is easy. It seems you're being somewhat obtuse.


----------



## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> Okay, but put it in the format shown above? Also, if you know the hypotenuse then the radius is easy. It seems you're being somewhat obtuse.


hypotenuse of what? You are given an arc segment from a circle. There is no hypotenuse to an arc. hypotenuse only applies to right triangles. Not circles. For example, notes on plans say top of arch 6'8". spring line, 6'0". opening 3'0". From that information you need the radius of the arch. Where is the hypotenuse of this image?


----------



## moore

7 1/6 is about as far as any dry Waller needs to go.


----------



## moore

You two are killing me!! I can eyeball it and get it straight without any of your math.


----------



## MrWillys

moore said:


> You two are killing me!! I can eyeball it and get it straight without any of your math.


 Can you eyeball this?

http://scotthansen.net/A-110A.pdf
http://scotthansen.net/A-120A.pdf

These radius for this job were given to me on a separate sheet. I think I used to be able to do that using the Quadratic Equation but have sense forgotten how. if you give me S I can figure it out.


----------



## thefinisher

Bunch of commercial framers. I can do the math and all but really could care less. I just call the builder and say this arch looks f#ck$n crooked!


----------



## gordie

Lol I use a 4" strip of 1/4 " drywall conect the dots #uckers


----------



## endo_alley

The radius is not given. That is the point. 
Read. But I did give out the formula earlier. 

(Rise)squared + (Span/2) squared
____________________________
2 x Rise


----------



## MrWillys

endo_alley said:


> The radius is not given. That is the point.
> Read. But I did give out the formula earlier.
> 
> (Rise)squared + (Span/2) squared
> ____________________________
> 2 x Rise


Can't do anything without a dimension. Tell me what S is?


----------



## MrWillys

Since you won't give me S I'll say it is 60". 60 x 60 is 3600 and 42.4 x 42.4 is 1800. Therefore, your radius is 42 13/32". It is a damn triangle if you go back and look at your post 99. Now, quite being smug and teach rather than agitate.


----------



## moore

gordie said:


> Lol I use a 4" strip of 1/4 " drywall conect the dots #uckers


:thumbsup:...:yes: That's right!! It ain't rocket surgery ..


----------



## MrWillys

moore said:


> :thumbsup:...:yes: That's right!! It ain't rocket surgery ..


I agree with you all day long that simple geometry is all that is required hanging most basic homes. Rocket Surgery?

However, If you're framing a big store front or a large roof a good handle on math is needed. Knowing how to calculate length of an arc helps when ordering material. My last 20 years I ordered all my own stuff. It started after I did a Target store and had to send a semi down to haul off the excess.

Length of Arc = Circumference x degrees / 360 or in the 84.8" diameter circle it would be 84.8 x 3.1416 x 90 / 360 = 66.6"


----------



## moore

MrWillys said:


> Length of Arc = Circumference x degrees / 360 or in the 84.8" diameter circle it would be 84.8 x 3.1416 x 90 / 360 = 66.6"


uh..........ok! :blink:


----------



## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> I agree with you all day long that simple geometry is all that is required hanging most basic homes. Rocket Surgery?
> 
> However, If you're framing a big store front or a large roof a good handle on math is needed. Knowing how to calculate length of an arc helps when ordering material. My last 20 years I ordered all my own stuff. It started after I did a Target store and had to send a semi down to haul off the excess.
> 
> Length of Arc = Circumference x degrees / 360 or in the 84.8" diameter circle it would be 84.8 x 3.1416 x 90 / 360 = 66.6"


 That is fine. But I guess you don't get it. We already have the chord length of the arc (width of opening). And also height above chord. But that doesn't give you the radius. Chord length (/2) and radius are not the same unless the arch is a perfect semi circle. Typically they are not. Sometimes they are elliptical.


----------



## gordie

Yep that's right I don't get it but I still like you nerds at least you became drywaller and not government workers 💩 am I right Rick


----------



## JustMe

johnny_bravo00 said:


> Second picture: A main corridor hallway after the cracks have been gone over possibly 2 more times since the wall was originally done, now primed and painted (still looks like crap)


Since we never use mesh tape, a bit of a stab in the dark, that might give a thought or 2 to try:

I'm looking at this with what I've seen happen using paper tape and FibaFuse tape on butt joints of my commercial jobs, and thinking that Maybe something similar could be happening to you, but is showing through as cracks for you because of the mesh not covering the butt joints, and any cracking happening behind the tapes, as much as paper and FibaFuse can cover joints.

The paper on the ends of some of the drywall board being made seems to 'lift' sometimes after coating, and sometimes after painting, leaving a 'peaked' seam that shows. More so with 1/2" board around here, but I've been seeing it happening more with 5/8" as well. Because the paper tape and Fibafuse tape could hide any cracking happening behind them from the board's paper letting loose better than mesh might, it just shows up as 'peaked' butt tapes for us. If we were using mesh, maybe it would show up as a crack(?) &/or peaking mesh tape and a crack(?)

To help keep the paper on the board ends down so it doesn't move and doesn't lift when hit with moisture, I've taken to skimming some setting compound (hot mud compound), like ProSet, over the butt joint ends and letting it set before taping. The odd butt joint still can lift, but not so bad as if I don't ProSet them. Then I'd likely have a lot more of them lifting at times.

If the paper on some ends already is loose enough, might have to cut it out before retaping, if don't want to keep having to do the same joints over and over, piling mud on top till things are held down(?)

I've also seen cracking happen on butt joints when FibaFuse tape is used because someone wiped down the tapes in ways that cut the fibers too much that were covering the seam. Has happened especially on the bottom 2 rows, where a bazooka was used to put on the FibaFuse. Tapes above that can often end up being put on by hand off scaffolds and lifts, often using paper tape there. Just food for thought, in case the taper is doing something differently when he's working above the 8' high flats, where you say doesn't show any cracking problems. 

Also, is the taper is using a straight setting compound for putting on the mesh? If so, you'd think that might hold the board's paper ends down. But if he's using some kind of 'exotic' taping concoction, like part setting compound and part mud mixture.... 

On level 5ing such as that corridor, with that paint: Could help, I'd think. I'd think about asking for it.


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## MrWillys

endo_alley said:


> The architect gives you AB, and S. But you need the radius (R) to draw the arch.





endo_alley said:


> That is fine. But I guess you don't get it. We already have the chord length of the arc (width of opening). And also height above chord. But that doesn't give you the radius. Chord length (/2) and radius are not the same unless the arch is a perfect semi circle. Typically they are not. Sometimes they are elliptical.


Complete BS sir. I asked you in several posts to provide a dimension for the length of the chord which you failed to provide. Then I created it and solved the equation. What on earth an ellipse has to do with the equation in your post 99 is just another of your attempt to baffle the subject matter. The State of California has certified me to teach math and a finisher in Colorado is challenging me?
http://scotthansen.net/Const_Tech/credential.pdf
If you post a proper equation then I can post a proper answer. Otherwise, go mix your mud and leave the teaching to those who have dedicated their lives to the craft.


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## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> Complete BS sir. I asked you in several posts to provide a dimension for the length of the chord which you failed to provide. Then I created it and solved the equation. What on earth an ellipse has to do with the equation in your post 99 is just another of your attempt to baffle the subject matter. The State of California has certified me to teach math and a finisher in Colorado is challenging me?
> http://scotthansen.net/Const_Tech/credential.pdf
> If you post a proper equation then I can post a proper answer. Otherwise, go mix your mud and leave the teaching to those who have dedicated their lives to the craft.


I clearly did give arc chord length . As I said earlier it is the segment AB in this drawing. We are given Arc length (AB). And we are given arch height (s). But we are not given the radius (R). We need the radius to create the arch. And I gave you the formula for finding the radius provided you have height and width of the arch. And provided it is circular and not an ellipse.


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## MrWillys

endo_alley said:


> I clearly did give arc chord length . As I said earlier it is the segment AB in this drawing. We are given Arc length (AB). And we are given arch height (s). But we are not given the radius (R). We need the radius to create the arch. And I gave you the formula for finding the radius provided you have height and width of the arch. And provided it is circular and not an ellipse.


Clearly I'm not seeing something then so explain it? Lower the difficulty of learning? I don't see how you can solve an equation without a dimension? What number post did you mention a dimension?


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## gordie

When do you ever get an arch that is made from a circle radius just don't work on most arches I would even say all but some must have a perfect radius none that I've done though


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## VANMAN

Speaking of arches(But this isn't an arch)
This is a cooker hood I tackled today!
Tell u what that chit that straight flex does for arches is SH*T!!:furious:
Ripped the crap off again and did the hood my own way!:thumbup:
Only 1 coat on it not finished!


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## endo_alley

MrWillys said:


> Clearly I'm not seeing something then so explain it? Lower the difficulty of learning? I don't see how you can solve an equation without a dimension? What number post did you mention a dimension?


Plug any number you want for the segment AB. 3' 0" might be a typical opening. Plug any S in you want. 6" might work. Or 8" if you like. That gives you your arc (top of arch). But then you need to figure the radius of the arc. That is where the formula comes in. Any dimension can possibly work. Much like the Pythagorean theorem that I believe you referred to earlier. On any right triangle, A squared plus B squared equal C squared , where segment C is the hypotenuse. Exact dimensions of right triangle doesn't matter. The theorem works for them all, provided one angle is square.


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## endo_alley

Here is a drawing of such an arch.


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## endo_alley

Converted to inches it is numerator, (6) squared plus (36/2) squared over denominator (6+6). 

(36+324) ***360
_______ = ______ = 30 inches for the radius.
** 12 *******12

Don't mind the asterisks. They are space keepers only. equations are difficult using the dialogue box.


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## Atomicdrywall

VANMAN said:


> Speaking of arches(But this isn't an arch)
> This is a cooker hood I tackled today!
> Tell u what that chit that straight flex does for arches is SH*T!!:furious:
> Ripped the crap off again and did the hood my own way!:thumbup:
> Only 1 coat on it not finished!


Sexy! 

I bet you did not get text books out, just got on with it.. Practically. 

Looks nice! Don't get arches on site in the uk any more, they have squared all those off so just like a normal door frame now but used to do loads.

Easy to Tape, as long as the border did not leave a hexagon. As long as it's in reach from the floor I never found doing them to take any more time than a normal window. 

That beast you have done vanman is a little different , good skills on show!


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## VANMAN

Atomicdrywall said:


> Sexy!
> 
> I bet you did not get text books out, just got on with it.. Practically.
> 
> Looks nice! Don't get arches on site in the uk any more, they have squared all those off so just like a normal door frame now but used to do loads.
> 
> Easy to Tape, as long as the border did not leave a hexagon. As long as it's in reach from the floor I never found doing them to take any more time than a normal window.
> 
> That beast you have done vanman is a little different , good skills on show!


Bitch of a thing and 2.7 ceiling height also!


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## VANMAN

Another room!


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## Atomicdrywall

VANMAN said:


> Another room!


Best tacking I have seen for some time! 

You want to see the **** I work on lol...

No cracks on your butts...


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## JustMe

VANMAN said:


> Speaking of arches(But this isn't an arch)
> This is a cooker hood I tackled today!
> Tell u what that chit that straight flex does for arches is SH*T!!:furious:
> Ripped the crap off again and did the hood my own way!:thumbup:
> Only 1 coat on it not finished!


Looks good, Van. :thumbsup:

Don't know what your problem was with the arch straight flex, but we used some on some trick curved bulkheads and curved free standing dividers the other week. Worked good.

The straightflex we used came in 10' sticks and had a steel backbone running through the center part, if yours was different. Wasn't stocked by our supplier - was a special order.

http://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_...-90°-arched-corner-bead-sell-sheet-en-can.pdf


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## Aussiecontractor

Nice work vanman, 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## VANMAN

JustMe said:


> Looks good, Van. :thumbsup:
> 
> Don't know what your problem was with the arch straight flex, but we used some on some trick curved bulkheads and curved free standing dividers the other week. Worked good.
> 
> The straightflex we used came in 10' sticks and had a steel backbone running through the center part, if yours was different. Wasn't stocked by our supplier - was a special order.
> 
> http://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_...-90°-arched-corner-bead-sell-sheet-en-can.pdf


It came in a roll!
U get ur length sorted then peel 1 side off! SH*T that's all I can say about it!:furious: £50 a roll also!:blink:


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## JustMe

VANMAN said:


> It came in a roll!
> U get ur length sorted then peel 1 side off! SH*T that's all I can say about it!:furious: £50 a roll also!:blink:


With the stuff we used, it was pre-bent to 90 degrees, and we pealed both sides off. Found that the tabs would more consistently sit better on both sides, then.

For getting the length to use, way we did it was wrap the curves with it, and cut it off wherever it came to a straight run part. After a couple of those pieces were on, then paper metal bead was cut to fit in the areas between them. The paper metal married up nicely to the straightflex - same height profile. Bulkheads were painted red, with natural sun coming in, so they were level 5ed, using mud. Looked good.


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## VANMAN

JustMe said:


> With the stuff we used, it was pre-bent to 90 degrees, and we pealed both sides off. Found that the tabs would more consistently sit better on both sides, then.
> 
> For getting the length to use, way we did it was wrap the curves with it, and cut it off wherever it came to a straight run part. After a couple of those pieces were on, then paper metal bead was cut to fit in the areas between them. The paper metal married up nicely to the straightflex - same height profile. Bulkheads were painted red, with natural sun coming in, so they were level 5ed, using mud. Looked good.


No pre bent here just sh*t on a roll!!


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## JustMe

VANMAN said:


> No pre bent here just sh*t on a roll!!


I talked other week with a guy who knows a guy who had dealings with the owner of Straight-flex. He said the owner gets an idea and then doesn't test it, just makes it and puts it out. If true or close to true, I guess it's left to us to sort the Straight-flex wheat from the Straight-flex chaff.


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## moore

VANMAN said:


> Speaking of arches(But this isn't an arch)
> This is a cooker hood I tackled today!
> Tell u what that chit that straight flex does for arches is SH*T!!:furious:
> Ripped the crap off again and did the hood my own way!:thumbup:
> Only 1 coat on it not finished!


What bead did you use Van? What was your way? Looks great! [as always!]


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## moore

JustMe said:


> With the stuff we used, it was pre-bent to 90 degrees, and we pealed both sides off. Found that the tabs would more consistently sit better on both sides, then.
> 
> For getting the length to use, way we did it was wrap the curves with it, and cut it off wherever it came to a straight run part. After a couple of those pieces were on, then paper metal bead was cut to fit in the areas between them. The paper metal married up nicely to the straightflex - same height profile. Bulkheads were painted red, with natural sun coming in, so they were level 5ed, using mud. Looked good.


I Don't think I've ever used a straight flex product that was worth using .


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## thefinisher

They have a product that is basically no coat... don't use it though. We often buy the arch flex on a roll. Really helps with some of the curved walls we do.


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## JustMe

moore said:


> I Don't think I've ever used a straight flex product that was worth using .


So you're saying you don't really know what you're doing when it comes to using trims? :whistling2:  

Their Midflex 300 has worked fine for me in the places I've used it. A guy I was helping with a house the other week used a bit of I think Midflex 250 in some out of the way off angles in a couple closets. Seemed okay for that.

The guy who took over the 2nd part of the commercial job from me - the lead taper for the company I was doing sub work for - said "Good call", when he tried a stick of the arch bead. I suggested we should order some in for those particular bulkheads, based on a sample I had. He especially liked how the steel backbone helped with the curves, which helped straighten out some bulkhead framing and boarding issues. The low profile was nice to work with, too.


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## moore

JustMe said:


> So you're saying you don't really know what you're doing when it comes to using trims? :whistling2:
> 
> Their Midflex 300 has worked fine for me in the places I've used it. A guy I was helping with a house the other week used a bit of I think Midflex 250 in some out of the way off angles in a couple closets. Seemed okay for that.
> 
> The guy who took over the 2nd part of the commercial job from me - the lead taper for the company I was doing sub work for - said "Good call", when he tried a stick of the arch bead. I suggested we should order some in for those particular bulkheads, based on a sample I had. He especially liked how the steel backbone helped with the curves, which helped straighten out some bulkhead framing and boarding issues. The low profile was nice to work with, too.


I can't help but to think, what will happen when that steel backbone starts to rust. And It's starting to rust right now!:yes: Reminds me of the old DIY corner tape with the two metal bands .


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## moore

BTW...Good to hear from you JM Missed seeing you around!


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## moore

When It comes to arches . If It's a standard 4 1/2 door way I use fast cap.. Anything other than that ..I just pick up some phillips vinyl at blowes and snip snip where needed. Then glue It on with TT glue . 

It ain't rocket Surgery boys! It's just pushing mud around!:yes:


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## JustMe

moore said:


> I can't help but to think, what will happen when that steel backbone starts to rust. And It's starting to rust right now!:yes: Reminds me of the old DIY corner tape with the two metal bands .


Read the last line of the Product Description in the link I posted to Van - "Waterproof, Rustproof".

And we know manufacturers don't lie or embellish the truth. :whistling2:

But in this instance, if you saw how the spine was wrapped/coated - ie. the 'blue' showing in the pic in the link....


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## JustMe

moore said:


> BTW...Good to hear from you JM Missed seeing you around!


Thanks, moore. Been really busy, but things slowing down a bit, now. Gives me time to get back to finessing my 'ultimate' taping tools that I've been going on about. A promise: This is the year (next 2-3 months(?)) you guys will get a chance to see some of the things they can do.


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## moore

JustMe said:


> Read the last line of the Product Description in the link I posted to Van - "Waterproof, Rustproof".
> 
> And we know manufacturers don't lie or embellish the truth. :whistling2:
> 
> But in this instance, if you saw how the spine was wrapped/coated - ie. the 'blue' showing in the pic in the link....


Never used it. But I will .


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## moore

JustMe said:


> Thanks, moore. Been really busy, but things slowing down a bit, now. Gives me time to get back to finessing my 'ultimate' taping tools that I've been going on about. A promise: This is the year (next 2-3 months(?)) you guys will get a chance to see some of the things they can do.


yeah.yeah.yeah. :whistling2:


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## VANMAN

moore said:


> What bead did you use Van? What was your way? Looks great! [as always!]


I hit the sides with sheetrock beads!
Then I fused under the curved parts then I got some of that flex tape with the metal strips and slice it down the middle and use that to make my arch!:thumbsup:
Done it for years with no probs!:thumbup:
Over here a buddy has to improvise!


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## gazman

moore said:


> I can't help but to think, what will happen when that steel backbone starts to rust. And It's starting to rust right now!:yes: Reminds me of the old DIY corner tape with the two metal bands .


Beadex I believe, not a great product.


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## VANMAN

gazman said:


> Beadex I believe, not a great product.


Beadex and sheetrock not the same product?


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## gazman

I didn't realise that beadex was a usg product, haven't used it for many years. So I googled it. This is the stuff we used.

https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/...-flex-tape-flexible-metal-tape-on-corner.html


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## VANMAN

gazman said:


> I didn't realise that beadex was a usg product, haven't used it for many years. So I googled it. This is the stuff we used.
> 
> https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/...-flex-tape-flexible-metal-tape-on-corner.html


That's the stuff I use for all my window returns! Beads r 2 expensive now the way things r going!
Its that stuff that I splice down the middle for my arches!:thumbsup:


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## MrWillys

gazman said:


> I didn't realise that beadex was a usg product, haven't used it for many years. So I googled it. This is the stuff we used.
> 
> https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/...-flex-tape-flexible-metal-tape-on-corner.html


Interesting.


http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/USG/0x0x69931/74c15817-f389-4fed-a66e-2cee0c22a82a/25011.pdf


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## JustMe

moore said:


> yeah.yeah.yeah. :whistling2:


That's what I especially like about you, moore. You believe everything I say.


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## moore

JustMe said:


> That's what I especially like about you, moore. You believe everything I say.


Well just give us something ! I keep hearing about it but haven't seen what I'ts even remotely about. Is it the new and improved corner spoon?


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## JustMe

moore said:


> Well just give us something ! I keep hearing about it but haven't seen what I'ts even remotely about. Is it the new and improved corner spoon?


The 2nd thing I especially like about you, moore - you're so huggable.  

I said it was the 'ultimate' taping tools - what more do you want? Actual specs? I'll tell while showing some things in video.

But to give a couple thoughts:

The taping part of it should prove to be 'the godzooka of bazookas', for reasons I'll explain/show later. Then there's things for coating flats, angles.

My 'finessing' this week has to do with putting together some things I already have with some things I got off the net a few weeks ago, but haven't really had time to do much with because of work and other time eaters. It's to make the systems self-loading when wanted - self-loading in a practical way - which should be nice for especially bigger jobs where guys are running auto tools. It should work, just don't know how well it'll handle thick mud. Might have to tweak that part some. Or maybe not.


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## moore

You've called me a peach before. So I guess that makes me a gullible huggable peach.


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## Atomicdrywall

VANMAN said:


> I hit the sides with sheetrock beads!
> Then I fused under the curved parts then I got some of that flex tape with the metal strips and slice it down the middle and use that to make my arch!:thumbsup:
> Done it for years with no probs!:thumbup:
> Over here a buddy has to improvise!


I always did that two:thumbsup:

Don't like that type of metal angle tape, I use arrow.


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## Krsw85

If he is using mesh on the butts they have to be pealed, Double meshed, and first coat has to be a setting type packed into the joint. Make him use paper lol.


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## Krsw85

How long is the wall this is happening on? Pretty sure 50 ft. Is the limit, anything over that will need a control joint.... because everything moves as the temperature fluctuates..... expands during warming, and contracts during cooling.... believe it or not pex plumbing grows an inch with a 20 deg. Or so temperature change for every 100 ft


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## Bob F.

Simple: taper the butt joints with your knife or rasp so the mud is heavy is those areas , then tape it... if your don’t it will crack almost every time.. [email protected]


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