# How big does your Taping crew needs to be??



## 1/2 irish (Nov 21, 2010)

I am a solo taper but thought about making a taping crew. How many guys makes a good effecient crew w/out any deadweight. Is three a good combination: one excellent taper (me), one good taper & one learning taper/sander? We all use Hawk & Trowel up here. No machines. How small or big is your crew?


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

buy machines,then you will be like a 3 man taping crew :yes:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

1/2 irish said:


> I am a solo taper but thought about making a taping crew. How many guys makes a good effecient crew w/out any deadweight. Is three a good combination: one excellent taper (me), one good taper & one learning taper/sander? We all use Hawk & Trowel up here. No machines. How small or big is your crew?


 a 2 man team , with equal skills. can make a good living NOW. when it gets
better .. [ 2 years from now] .. hire on maybe.??:blink:


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## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> buy machines,then you will be like a 3 man taping crew :yes:


& 3 times the mess.:tt2::lol::lol:


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## Muddauber (Jan 26, 2008)

Final touch drywall said:


> & 3 times the mess.:tt2::lol::lol:


And people think us Ky. hillbillies are backwards?

This is the 21st century you know.:whistling2:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Muddauber said:


> And people think us Ky. hillbillies are backwards?
> 
> This is the 21st century you know.:whistling2:


Yeah, but he's got the option to pass on 3 million dollar homes....he might be on to something

If your market segment is big enough, then you can sell "all hand finished" to people with lots of money. Hell, I try and do that here even though the market won't bear it.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

are the machine tools really that messy?


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

moore said:


> are the machine tools really that messy?




During the learning curve process---oh ya-- when you master the tools-- I,ll bet we,ve all said this" why didnt I do this earlier", I use both -hand tools when size of job requires and mechanical when required--and of course all hand work in plaster


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

moore said:


> are the machine tools really that messy?


No
and ditto to what dsjohn said.
I spill bigger blobs of mud with my H&T.
If a GC wants no mud on his floor,we can do it with machines.
What makes me get sick with this site is guys who come on here and proclaim the machines suck, never the taper.
so I guess the framer sucks because he used a power saw and nail gun, not a hand saw and hammer.
A backhoe sucks,a wheel barrow and shovel are better.
Why use a drywall screw gun,screw driver sets the screw better
A cigarette lighter sucks,rubbing 2 sticks together is better.

I'm surprised these anti tools guys know how to type and own a Pc.
How can you be a MAN,and say tools suck


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

OK OK .. sorry i asked.:blink:


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## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> No
> and ditto to what dsjohn said.
> I spill bigger blobs of mud with my H&T.
> If a GC wants no mud on his floor,we can do it with machines.
> ...


Im with buck on this......I think ftd will allways be a hater of:thumbsup: automatic tools and thats his right to think like that.But dont let his oppion of new technology scare anyone away from looking into them afterall they were designed to put out a faster.cleaner.straighter.less mud consumption more profitable product....And if they were not so expensive I bet alot more finishers would be using them..


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

1/2 irish said:


> I am a solo taper but thought about making a taping crew. How many guys makes a good effecient crew w/out any deadweight. Is three a good combination: one excellent taper (me), one good taper & one learning taper/sander? We all use Hawk & Trowel up here. No machines. How small or big is your crew?


3 is about your limit
one should be your under study or almost equal, while the other should be the b1tch/labourer .
anything higher than that starts to bring headaches ,back stabbing, and more baby sitting duties .
where I work it's all machines, and most guys work by them selves. Their opinion is why do a 100 houses in one year with 2 guys, when you can do 50 by yourself. Your just creating more expenses and travel time.We find the DWC just slave drives you when your a crew so......trust me I know.
And trust me in this too, whats cheaper, forever paying out on labour, or investing in $10,000 in tools over time. Machines are your 2nd man .
trust me:thumbsup:


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## sdrdrywall (Sep 4, 2010)

im sick of handfinisher talking smack on machines if your a slob it dosent matter what you use sorry i like to make money the faster the better


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## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

sdrdrywall said:


> im sick of handfinisher talking smack on machines if your a slob it dosent matter what you use sorry i like to make money the faster the better


 preech on brother ...can i get a hel? yeah..:thumbsup:


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## sdrdrywall (Sep 4, 2010)

the biggest problem i see is guys are scared to try anything new or different its easier to stand on the out side and talk crap than to try and learn something new


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## McDusty (Oct 12, 2009)

1 man crew, anything more is a waste. Once your helper(s) get decent & wise up, they will leave you to go out on their own and become the competition. Stop training new tapers to take your work.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

I don't know why anyone would rag on finishing tools. Sure, there's an art to finishing by hand, but you can do that at the end....the tools get you there faster. I don't enjoy using the tools, but their speed more than makes up for their unpleasantness. I wrestle with the idea of buying a set nearly everyday, I just don't have the money....but the problem is, I can't bid on bigger projects either. Catch 22.

As for size of a crew, most guys I know are one-man bands and hire subs if they get into bigger stuff. They'll team up with friends on bigger houses with a time-frame. I suppose a person might want to hire on a crew if they're looking to expand their business.


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## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

How much does a 10inch box weigh loaded with mud?How much does the bazooka weigh full of mud?How much longer do you think your body is gonna be able to run those machines?I'm sorry,but those tools get very heavy & the last thing my guys will do for me is run those tools all day long for the same pay.They will leave me in a minute if I did that to them.
It has nothing to do with modern technology,cause I have more tools than any of you could imagine.I was born into this trade running tools,thank god I stopped yrs ago, or else I would be ruined & look like someone else
I enjoy going to the gym every day,the last thing I want to do @ work,is lift weights all day long.
Sorry some of you can't take an honest opinion.

To answer the original question.We have 3 hangers.As far as finishers go: 2 mechanics & a helper has worked well for us.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Final touch drywall said:


> How much does a 10inch box weigh loaded with mud?How much does the bazooka weigh full of mud?How much longer do you think your body is gonna be able to run those machines?I'm sorry,but those tools get very heavy & the last thing my guys will do for me is run those tools all day long for the same pay.They will leave me in a minute if I did that to them.
> It has nothing to do with modern technology,cause I have more tools than any of you could imagine.I was born into this trade running tools,thank god I stopped yrs ago, or else I would be ruined & look like someone else
> I enjoy going to the gym every day,the last thing I want to do @ work,is lift weights all day long.
> Sorry some of you can't take an honest opinion.
> ...


yes your right,hard work and machines are not meant for pussies :whistling2:


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## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

So if I start using machines will that mean,when I'm 48 & over weight, will the tools finish the job for me while I dwindle my life away on Drywall talk:blink:


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## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

Its sad to say,@ the end of the day you are still getting the same day pay,no matter how fast you work.


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## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

Not when its a bid the faster my guys work the more I make in the end..they get rewarded as well.If its hourly well sad to say slower = more money.


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## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

Look,Im not here to bicker with some 48 yr old taper,i just went through that crap with a 55 year old.I simply stated an opinion & get ridiculed for it.I apologize for my bad comments.But to call someone a word I would never use.Just shows character.

It seems you machine guys are very sensitive when it comes to hand tapers,so I will leave my opinion to myself.
There is some reel dirt in this trade,I'm not on here looking for more.I have work to do.Enjoy.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Final touch drywall said:


> How much does a 10inch box weigh loaded with mud?How much does the bazooka weigh full of mud?How much longer do you think your body is gonna be able to run those machines?I'm sorry,but those tools get very heavy & the last thing my guys will do for me is run those tools all day long for the same pay.They will leave me in a minute if I did that to them.
> It has nothing to do with modern technology,cause I have more tools than any of you could imagine.I was born into this trade running tools,thank god I stopped yrs ago, or else I would be ruined & look like someone else
> I enjoy going to the gym every day,the last thing I want to do @ work,is lift weights all day long.
> Sorry some of you can't take an honest opinion.
> ...


I agree with you about running tools, I can't stand it. They _are _heavy, and they hurt my back (and I don't _think _I'm a p***y:blink. Personally, I think I would find a happy medium between using the tube and angle tools, and finish the rest by hand. I've never met a flat-box that could finish a butt joint as nicely as my trowels, and in fewer coats.

I wish you wouldn't keep your opinions to yourself, I like hearing what you have to say.:thumbsup:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Final touch drywall said:


> How much does a 10inch box weigh loaded with mud?How much does the bazooka weigh full of mud?How much longer do you think your body is gonna be able to run those machines?I'm sorry,but those tools get very heavy & the last thing my guys will do for me is run those tools all day long for the same pay.They will leave me in a minute if I did that to them.
> It has nothing to do with modern technology,cause I have more tools than any of you could imagine.I was born into this trade running tools,thank god I stopped yrs ago, or else I would be ruined & look like someone else
> I enjoy going to the gym every day,the last thing I want to do @ work,is lift weights all day long.
> Sorry some of you can't take an honest opinion.
> ...


i'm a hand finisher, and my hands are fcked up. arthritis at 43. been doin this work since 1985. time for a change. thought about switching from broad knives to trowels . the machines are hard work. because THIS is hard labor. i'm not built for it , but it's all i know. my old man told me years ago.. ENDURE THE PAIN BOY! :yes:


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## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

Final touch drywall said:


> Look,Im not here to bicker with some 48 yr old taper,i just went through that crap with a 55 year old.I simply stated an opinion & get ridiculed for it.I apologize for my bad comments.But to call someone a word I would never use.Just shows character.
> 
> It seems you machine guys are very sensitive when it comes to hand tapers,so I will leave my opinion to myself.
> There is some reel dirt in this trade,I'm not on here looking for more.I have work to do.Enjoy.


Hey ftd no one is looking to bicker.were all above that..were all just putting in our opion on subjects.and yes tempers will flare...the alpha males will bark.but hey if a person takes pride in the job and work......we will allways arguee.its humain nature we just cant let it get out of hand.so what im saying is lets not let thist thread turn in to a big blown out of propurtion arguement.we all have the same objective to put out quality work and makes money.agreed..


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

the gym??


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Final touch drywall said:


> So if I start using machines will that mean,when I'm 48 & over weight, will the tools finish the job for me while I dwindle my life away on Drywall talk:blink:


Here we go :boxing: That was a bit personal FTD

Your an experanced guy FTD so its working for you, Your thread on that house on how can you not love going to work was impressive.

But i dam if i can understand WTF your on, respectfully.
I have hand finished for 10 years and machines were my savour.
You think the machines or heavy, crap they are, they are f all,
Im only 80kgs and 5,11 hardly a giant and there is no way wipin a box over ceilings is harder or heavier than doing it by hand, Ok the bazooka weights a little, So what, grow a pair, its over with before you know it, again no way thats more work than by hand, Hand finishing is slow, hard, demoralizing boring tiring and it sucks, And its just plain dumb, It amazes that anyone one think otherwise, Ok they do take some learning which can be messy, but thats not the tools fault thats the users fault.

Good luck to anyone swing on trowels and knifes, That will wear you out faster than machines ever will.

I painted a house last year, it was taped by a hand taper, he told me how good it was and how great he was, he dosnt advertise and gets works work so he must be good blah blah bla, took him a month, each join was about 2.5f wide, Yeah he prob did the best you could with a trowel but it was uneven and those huge joins only showed sander marks, that use to be me, thank f it isnt anymore, Twice the material use, twice the time, and half as good a job, I hope he stays that way, I have a feeling he will due to head being to far up his own arse to see anything else.

That is just my opinion and not a direct shot at anyone so dont get all pissy about it, All the best to any hand finisher, Your tougher and harder than i am, Such heros :whistling2: Good luck.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm cazna's hero!! :yes:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

moore said:


> I'm cazna's hero!! :yes:


Lol you sure are moore :thumbup:

Like i said, I respect any finisher no matter how you get there :thumbsup:

I recently quoted a job, I was 5k less than my hand finishing compition, if i knew that then my price would have been more, Anyway all my compition are hand finishers and i can smoke them all, I all still make good coin and have a good time doin it at my price, His price was for the time needed to hand finish, So i win, i get the work, and the follow on work they refer me too.
I love you auto tools,

FTD is my hero as well :thumbsup:


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## M T Buckets Painting (Nov 27, 2010)

Back to the original subject, a taping crew needs enough men to get the job done in a timely manner. If you have to look around to find something for someone to do, you don't have room for them. (or they are not smart enough to do the things that need done)


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## jmr (Mar 22, 2010)

1 guy is all i can afford to use, and that one guy is me .

i'd say 3 max if you have volume.. if work is slower i'd say you and 1 other dude working longer days. 

makes for more money.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Final touch drywall said:


> So if I start using machines will that mean,when I'm 48 & over weight, will the tools finish the job for me while I dwindle my life away on Drywall talk:blink:


Well,guess me being over weight shows how easy the machines are on you, guess I should hand tape to lose weight.And what I do with my personal life after work is my business. But again, maybe I should tape by hand and spend more TIME at work, and less time at home on DWT.

Any one that has read ALL my post knows that I don't knock those that tape by hand.I was one myself once.and there are many situations where a master of the hand is needed.I'm the one who suggested the plaster section,,,,,,but,after 30 years in this trade, there are three things that I hear from the ones I will call the arrogant hand guys.They start throwing the mud at you buy saying.

I can beat the bazooka,or bazooka bad etc....
Hand work does a better job than machines
And the classic battle,mesh vs tape

Can us machine tapers be arrogant ,Oh yes we can!!!,but most of us busted our butts to get where we are, to buy those damn over priced toys that make us good coin.

and buy the way ftd, fire all the shots you want my way, makes this site more exciting, I got thick skin, you got to when your a taper :yes:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> I can beat the bazooka,or bazooka bad etc....
> Hand work does a better job than machines
> And the classic battle,mesh vs tape


1) I can't beat a bazooka
2) Ifinish a _bad_ butt better than a box and in less coats.
3)No comment.:jester:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> 1) I can't beat a bazooka
> 2) Ifinish a _bad_ butt better than a box and in less coats.
> 3)No comment.:jester:


I box and hand finish butts, bad butts always need hand finished, you still need to be a skilled hand finisher with the tools, they dont do everything:thumbsup:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

cazna said:


> I box and hand finish butts, bad butts always need hand finished, you still need to be a skilled hand finisher with the tools, they dont do everything:thumbsup:


What? I though they made you coffee and gave you a knobber at the end of the day!:jester:

I've worked with guys who run boxes, so I've had to use their system, but I've always wanted to skip the butts when boxing. The joints look great after 2 coats(with a box) when there's a texture, but if it's smooth or light orange peel you're going to wind up putting a 3rd coat on anyway. I'm not a big fan of a third coat, when almost always 2 will do (hand work).

Don't get me wrong, because I'm not knocking machines...they're great and I sometimes desperately wish I had a set. 

Working for a larger commercial outfit, was up in a 12'x12' skylight, L5 of course, and asked the super if he wanted me to just coat it by hand. He says "if I see you doing hand work I'll fire you". I did it by hand anyway, and 2 days later that was my whole job....floating butts by hand, hundreds and hundreds of them


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

A good keen man will always be cursed ( Or blessed) with plenty of work slim, Thats my biggest curse, and i love it :thumbsup:


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

I stick to a 3 man crew, sometimes 2 when its a small job. Usually 1 guy doing beads, and the other 2 on the machines. When I used to do my finishing with my wife, we used 1 more guy (brother in law) and we would knock out 100-200 sheet jobs in 3-1/2" days tops. Smooth level 4 sanded. Know I have 3 guys hourly, who 2 do the bazooka, all 3 do the tools, and the love the machines. Can't get them to stop fighting who gets to do the Bazooka. Sometimes if I'm slow, I step in and its 4 of us finishing, and we leave early.


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## muddermankc (Apr 6, 2009)

man this is funny listening to everyone,gotta love it. I think its true dedication when these guys are so hellbent on their way being best. 
Any good finish is fun to look at when u understand the art.But yea u aint gonna make any money tapin footage without the tools. We used to run a banjo but then use the boxes for flats,wow no comparison in time. Theres still something cool about a nice hand job. Buddy of mine that passed away recently,man his flats truly looked like they were boxed. Everything was real uniform,looked nice,couldnt help but be impressed. But couldnt do a patch for anything,it was funny. Ive also seen machined jobs that were so damn clean and straight it looked like a job from "tron" Nail spotters from ceiling angle to floor, bead so straight it looked like it was painted on,pretty cool. Now i just do repairs all day so really dont get to "finish any more,miss it,but this is good gig


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

cazna said:


> A good keen man will always be cursed ( Or blessed) with plenty of work slim, Thats my biggest curse, and i love it :thumbsup:


Yeah, it was at that point I started thinking "maybe I should have just done what he said"

I stroke butts for a living:laughing:


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

1 man crew = hard time finishing the job on time.
2 guys that know what they're doing running hand tools > one guy with machines.
2 guys with machines that know what they're doing > 3 guys with hand tools.

A 2 man well motivated team IMO is the best.


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## McDusty (Oct 12, 2009)

unless the job is less than 7000bdft. then a two man team is a total waste because the job will take 4 days regardless. you need to be doing 2 of those houses a day, then 2 people is a good number.


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

McDusty said:


> unless the job is less than 7000bdft. then a two man team is a total waste because the job will take 4 days regardless. you need to be doing 2 of those houses a day, then 2 people is a good number.


 You mean to say 2 guys is a waste IF the job is less than 7000 bd ft? 4 days with texture and sanding?


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## McDusty (Oct 12, 2009)

Bevelation said:


> You mean to say 2 guys is a waste IF the job is less than 7000 bd ft? 4 days with texture and sanding?


ya sorry, that's what i meant. we don't texture. tape, mud, mud, sand. done.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

Final touch drywall said:


> So if I start using machines will that mean,when I'm 48 & over weight, will the tools finish the job for me while I dwindle my life away on Drywall talk:blink:


Post 20 - and that was 2 years ago..... :whistling2:

Just sayin....


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## icerock drywall (Nov 13, 2010)

solo with machines


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