# Hairline cracks



## AQC

Just completed a drywall ceiling in a basement (25 -4x10 sheets) for a customer. I just recieved a call that some of the joints have hairline cracks in them. The entire ceiling was screwed and glued (liquid nails). I kept the electric heat set around 68-70 durring the job. I did some touch ups and 1 coat of primer. I dont finish drywall everyday but have alot of experience. I have a feeling the home owner shut off the heat after I left the job. Our area has been down in the low 30's the past few nights. Does anybody have any advice?


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## Checkers

Well, you might want to go make sure there really are cracks, asap.
I would assume that they shut the heat off as well. Are the cracks just in butt joints? Just in flats? Or both?
Did you pre-fill? How many coats of mud? What kind of mud? Mesh or paper tape?


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## AQC

The homeowner inspected every seam with a led flashlight before I primed job was perfect. I taped with #45 and perforated paper tape 2 coats. And skimed 1 coated blue lid lightweight. Cracks are in the factory tapered mud valleys.


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## AQC

How much of a temp change do you think it would take to cause a crack?


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## Mudstar

I suspect you never used taping compound when you taped. 

Using #45 durabond, sheetrock or any other hot mud is to hard and there's not enough glue for taping as far as I'm concerned and more then likey thats your problem.


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## DSJOHN

I,ve found that when using 5/8 [if you did] the tapers seem to be deeper than 1/2 . Even 45 will slightly shrink thus your problem---did you do all coats in one day? Basements are tough.[drying times] I prefer 20 durabond [brown]in this situation and ezsand20[white]and as much as it sucks/I hate applying last coat same day [bubbles] but I usually do.


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## 2buckcanuck

if you did what mudstar stated ,taped with a hot mud,then most likely that.temperature maybe,if i remember my F temp,30 is 0 c,cold yes,but did the room temp fall to that.combine those 2 and there's trouble though.


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## AQC

I did 1 coat a day to let it dry. After I finish sanded it did not get primed until the next day over 24 hrs . I am going tonight to look at it.


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## Tim0282

I have seen that about a ten degree swing in temp. (up or down) will cause it to crack like that. Sounds like you did everything right.


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## proficient Mudder

I was asked to inspect a basement a few months ago with the same problem that another drywall company had finished. I came to the conclusion that the floor joist in some areas were moving enough when the family was walking around upstairs to stress the buttjoints and give the hairline cracks. 

Bill


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## Mudstar

proficient Mudder said:


> I was asked to inspect a basement a few months ago with the same problem that another drywall company had finished. I came to the conclusion that the floor joist in some areas were moving enough when the family was walking around upstairs to stress the buttjoints and give the hairline cracks.
> 
> Bill



What about all those 2 story houses........ that was a lame answer and you probably had them believe you too. 

At least your not cutting up the other trades workmanship like some would.


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## Mudstar

:whistling2:


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## silverstilts

Probably used that (GREAT) mesh tape huh?


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## 2buckcanuck

silverstilts said:


> Probably used that (GREAT) mesh tape huh?


(great white) mesh tape with hotmud #45


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## SlimPickins

Mudstar said:


> What about all those 2 story houses........ that was a lame answer and you probably had them believe you too.
> 
> At least your not cutting up the other trades workmanship like some would.


Yeah, because he said that all basements have movement in the floor joists above. It just isn't possible that the floor joists were improperly installed without any stabilization.

I think it's funny how critical, opinionated, and adamant you guys can be. I can't see how anyone else out here makes a living doing anything that differs from your methods since you're all always right.


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## DSJOHN

SlimPickins said:


> Yeah, because he said that all basements have movement in the floor joists above. It just isn't possible that the floor joists were improperly installed without any stabilization.
> 
> I think it's funny how critical, opinionated, and adamant you guys can be. I can't see how anyone else out here makes a living doing anything that differs from your methods since you're all always right.


Slim,I gotta agree with ya====== this guy never gives advice--just lets all know how great he is--- I,m guessing he has a little weiner and needs to justify his manliness by taking jabs at everyone


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## Mudstar

SlimPickins said:


> Yeah, because he said that all basements have movement in the floor joists above. It just isn't possible that the floor joists were improperly installed without any stabilization.
> 
> I think it's funny how critical, opinionated, and adamant you guys can be. I can't see how anyone else out here makes a living doing anything that differs from your methods since you're all always right.


Well once you have run a million miles of tape and seen houses constructed over 25 years you kinda get to know how things work don't you think........

JS


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## Mudstar

DSJOHN said:


> Slim,I gotta agree with ya====== this guy never gives advice--just lets all know how great he is--- I,m guessing he has a little weiner and needs to justify his manliness by taking jabs at everyone


I work everyday, do you? 

I don't have to convince anyone what I can do.

Also I'm not a little whiner and the advice I have given is from experience.


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## silverstilts

Realistically hairline cracks can be attributed to a few reasons. Joist Movement usually isn't the case unless they were not the proper size for the span. The most realistic cause would be the sheetrock was not fastened properly mixed with a poor hanging job where the seam wasn't tight and a poor taping job, If cracked throughout the basement I would think it was the taping job and perhaps the choice of material used, who knows for sure unless you rip the tape off and find out what is under it. We all know that sheetrock does have some flexibility to it and so does the joints to a certain point, then something has to give. I would think the load on the floor would have to be very great and it would have to be throughout for something like that to happen.


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## DSJOHN

Mudstar said:


> I work everyday, do you?
> 
> I don't have to convince anyone what I can do.
> 
> Also I'm not a little whiner and the advice I have given is from experience.


First question----sounds like you have an inferiority complex----2nd question same thing--------3rd question you dont give advice--you give sarcasm as if you,re the only drywaller in the world. Heres a question for you----------When applying structo-lite plaster and it wont take up what would I do and use to help the problem before loosing the wall and mix??:whistling2:


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## silverstilts

DSJOHN said:


> First question----sounds like you have an inferiority complex----2nd question same thing--------3rd question you dont give advice--you give sarcasm as if you,re the only drywaller in the world. Heres a question for you----------When applying structo-lite plaster and it wont take up what would I do and use to help the problem before loosing the wall and mix??:whistling2:


 :clap: I think you may be on to something, I find most that can only insult others are usually the ones with the most faults thereby inflating their own egos . Seems as though some have to pat their own backs for any recognition.


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## SlimPickins

Mudstar said:


> Well once you have run a million miles of tape and seen houses constructed over 25 years you kinda get to know how things work don't you think........
> 
> JS


It's funny, at first I thought this was a sarcastic reply from someone else!

I don't think running a million miles of tape means anything at all. Some production tube-guy could be stringing tape all day, every day for 25 years....and have someone else doing the pre-fill/problem mitigation, someone else running coating tools, etc. I'm not saying this is you, but it COULD be.

Time-in is a valuable commodity, but that doesn't mean anything either. I've met plenty of long-time tradesmen who are quite horrible at what they do...fortunately for them they've found niches where their level of quality is acceptable.

Production finishing is different from problem solving.

I'm not accusing you of anything other than making assumptions and generally not treating people fairly. There have been times when I've wondered whether you're a ghost account for another member who uses it to troll the forum, and therefore avoids tarnishing their otherwise "good" name.:blink:


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## SlimPickins

silverstilts said:


> Joist Movement *usually* isn't the case _unless they were not the proper size for the span._



I agree with you that's it's usually not the cause, in fact I've never seen it happen. But that doesn't mean it _couldn't _happen. It wouldn't be too hard to check and see what the dimensions of the of the joists are by taking a few measurements. A stud finder would help determine spacing, and that could be a good path to determining whether they were inadequately installed. It certainly wouldn't be my first guess as to what caused the cracking, but it certainly sounds possible. I've come to respect Bill's input.


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## 2buckcanuck

speaking of the experience thing
"I dont finish drywall everyday but have alot of experience"
that's the statement of the original poster of this thread.....hhmmmm:whistling2:
more information !!!!!:yes:


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## Tim0282

OK, I'll brag a little to make a point. I have two guys finishing with me. We do 500,000 feet a year. And I have been in the business for forty years. I'd hope to shout he could do a million feet in twenty five years. 




SlimPickins said:


> It's funny, at first I thought this was a sarcastic reply from someone else!
> 
> I don't think running a million miles of tape means anything at all. Some production tube-guy could be stringing tape all day, every day for 25 years....and have someone else doing the pre-fill/problem mitigation, someone else running coating tools, etc. I'm not saying this is you, but it COULD be.
> 
> Time-in is a valuable commodity, but that doesn't mean anything either. I've met plenty of long-time tradesmen who are quite horrible at what they do...fortunately for them they've found niches where their level of quality is acceptable.
> 
> Production finishing is different from problem solving.
> 
> I'm not accusing you of anything other than making assumptions and generally not treating people fairly. There have been times when I've wondered whether you're a ghost account for another member who uses it to troll the forum, and therefore avoids tarnishing their otherwise "good" name.:blink:


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## Tim0282

Oh and Slim... I agree with you. (not that you needed me to tell you that)


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## Tim0282

Oops...he did say a million miles! Guess I haven't done that!!!


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## Tim0282

Been trying to figure the math on the million miles. So roughly every ten rolls is a mile. (A little less) So we do roughly a hundred houses a year. Every house takes more or less ten rolls. That is roughly 100 miles a year times 40 years. That is 4,000 miles. Man, I've walked a long ways in circles!! If he's done a million miles....well I guess he can say anything he wants. :thumbup:


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## 2buckcanuck

say you put on a average ten ,500 foot rolls of tape a week.
10 x 500 =5,000 ft of tape a week.
52 weeks in a year
52 x 5000 ft =260,000 ft in a year.
1,000,000 divided by 260,000 =3.84.... years to lay a million feet of tape
had to google feet in million miles,it's 5,280,000,000
so if you do average 260,000 feet of tape put on in a year.....
5,280,000,000 divided by 260,000 =20,307.69 years.
there,something new to brag/argue about,how many rolls of tape do you average a week.
or how many millions of feet have you laid,or how many miles done:whistling2:


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## 2buckcanuck

tim0282
great minds think a like,it got me thinking too:thumbsup:


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## proficient Mudder

Tim0282 said:


> Been trying to figure the math on the million miles. So roughly every ten rolls is a mile. (A little less) So we do roughly a hundred houses a year. Every house takes more or less ten rolls. That is roughly 100 miles a year times 40 years. That is 4,000 miles. Man, I've walked a long ways in circles!! If he's done a million miles....well I guess he can say anything he wants. :thumbup:


I think before I would have walked the whole one million miles, i would have just patented the Bazooka odometer. Who knows he might have been counting a million dollars instead of all them miles.

Bill


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## proficient Mudder

SlimPickins said:


> I agree with you that's it's usually not the cause, in fact I've never seen it happen. But that doesn't mean it _couldn't _happen. It wouldn't be too hard to check and see what the dimensions of the of the joists are by taking a few measurements. A stud finder would help determine spacing, and that could be a good path to determining whether they were inadequately installed. It certainly wouldn't be my first guess as to what caused the cracking, but it certainly sounds possible. I've come to respect Bill's input.


Thank you, 
Bill


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> say you put on a average ten ,500 foot rolls of tape a week.
> 10 x 500 =5,000 ft of tape a week.
> 52 weeks in a year
> 52 x 5000 ft =260,000 ft in a year.
> 1,000,000 divided by 260,000 =3.84.... years to lay a million feet of tape
> had to google feet in million miles,it's 5,280,000,000
> so if you do average 260,000 feet of tape put on in a year.....
> 5,280,000,000 divided by 260,000 =20,307.69 years.
> there,something new to brag/argue about,how many rolls of tape do you average a week.
> or how many millions of feet have you laid,or how many miles done:whistling2:


Here's my math on a full time production taper (only taping, all day, every day)

10 rolls a day, 5 days a week (must be union, all weekends off)
10x500ft.x5=25,000 ft.

25,000x52=1,300,00 ft. of tape a year
1,300,000x25 years =32,500,000 ft., which is not quite 5,280,000,000

So, how many rolls of tape would you have to put on a day to do a million miles in 25 years, taping full time?

Let's see....

5,280,000,000/500 ft. per roll = 10,560,000 rolls of tape

25 years = 9,125 days

10,560,000/9125 = 1,157.26 rolls of tape per day, every day for 25 years.

I am now truly humbled, and take back all possible criticism. That is f*&$ing amazing!


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## Tim0282

Slim, you stayed up past midnight to figure this out! 
We need to get a life....


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## JustMe

SlimPickins said:


> I've met plenty of long-time tradesmen who are quite horrible at what they do..


Some definitions for 'tradesman':

- a craftsman
- a skilled worker

So "long-time tradesmen" and being "quite horrible" in the same sentence seems like a contradiction. Would something like 'long-time hack' be maybe more accurate?

Not saying such are stupid or anything. If they can get away with it; and they make as much or more money, or close to it, or enough, without the stress of wanting to/'having' to do jobs that need to be more 'perfect'; and they can keep their job separate from the rest of their lives - 'their job isn't them'; and .......; then maybe, just maybe, they're smarter than me. :blink:



SlimPickins said:


> I am now truly humbled, and take back all possible criticism. That is f*&$ing amazing!


Or that's you taking things too literally. 



Tim0282 said:


> Slim, you stayed up past midnight to figure this out!
> We need to get a life....


As soon as someone points me in the (really) right direction, I'm there as well.


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## SlimPickins

JustMe said:


> Some definitions for 'tradesman':
> 
> - a craftsman
> - a skilled worker
> 
> So "long-time tradesmen" and being "quite horrible" in the same sentence seems like a contradiction. Would something like 'long-time hack' be maybe more accurate?
> Not saying such are stupid or anything. If they can get away with it; and they make as much or more money, or close to it, or enough, without the stress of wanting to/'having' to do jobs that need to be more 'perfect'; and they can keep their job separate from the rest of their lives - 'their job isn't them'; and .......; then maybe, just maybe, they're smarter than me.
> :blink:


I think long time hack sounds just right. Let's just say that my perception of "horrible" is a touch more discerning than the average homeowner? I wish that I could separate myself from my work, but it's just not possible for me. I spend a good portion of my life working, and to not do the best job I can means I'm not always being the best person I can. Now, doing the "best" job sometimes requires holding off on the perfection, to meet the financial needs of the client....



JustMe said:


> Or that's you taking things too literally.


 I never gave it much thought until these guys started doing the math, and then I realized the ridiculousness of it all. "Million miles of tape" sounded like a possible, if perhaps bloated, boast. I remember riding with a truck driver (back in my hitchhiking kid days) who had driven a million miles, and I remember thinking "wow, that's a lotta miles".




JustMe said:


> As soon as someone points me in the (really) right direction, I'm there as well.


:thumbup:


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## SlimPickins

Tim0282 said:


> Slim, you stayed up past midnight to figure this out!
> We need to get a life....


It took me a few hours to do the math and the typing :whistling2: but I thought it was important that we have some of these really important answers to the questions that have been plaguing us since the dawn of sheetrock :yes: (and it wasn't midnight here!)


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## Mudstar

DSJOHN said:


> First question----sounds like you have an inferiority complex----2nd question same thing--------3rd question you dont give advice--you give sarcasm as if you,re the only drywaller in the world. Heres a question for you----------When applying structo-lite plaster and it wont take up what would I do and use to help the problem before loosing the wall and mix??:whistling2:



First off I'm I do know wtf I'm doing and always offer advice in my first reply to a thread if you know how to read and keep the threads timeline in order of my postings. 

Second, any person that uses durabond 20 brown bag crap to tape with does not know WTF he's doing and his advice is not worth a pinch of **** $hit 

Third, I see that most of your posts are comments about others posting and next to no advice is given.

Like whos going to learn anything from an old plaster in the drywall industry anyways ......Durabond WTF

Nobody..............


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## DSJOHN

So when you do a small 2 room job you never use durabond and ezsand to tape and coat? Interesting.to each his own, I,m guessing your in the minority here, and I was a drywaller before plaster,but drywall is easy,so I expanded my business ,I,m" not scared " as they say, never to old to learn something new, I,m sure your great at what you do as are many other guys here, a little less sarcasm will gain more respect-- I mentor high school kids in the building trades so thats why I come off the way I do--just who I am , Sorry!!!!!


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## Saul_Surfaces

DSJOHN said:


> So when you do a small 2 room job you never use durabond and ezsand to tape and coat? Interesting.to each his own, I,m guessing your in the minority here, and I was a drywaller before plaster,but drywall is easy,so I expanded my business ,I,m" not scared " as they say, never to old to learn something new, I,m sure your great at what you do as are many other guys here, a little less sarcasm will gain more respect-- I mentor high school kids in the building trades so thats why I come off the way I do--just who I am , Sorry!!!!!


DSJOHN, hope you aren't too sorry. I enjoy your posts. Mudstar on the other hand, is a bit like high humidity around a mudding project. . . frustrating and annoying, but hard to get rid of.


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## Mudstar

All I said was it was a lame answer in regards to the cracking and look where this thread has gone. 

The faint hearted need not reply

It was a lame answer..................

And I never cut anyone one up directly but you all seem too 

Besides that look how you all pick apart an issue over my comment 

I think your all jealous 



JS


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## JustMe

Besides using discussion forums for enjoyment, I also use them to:

- get better at trying to get my point(s) across better (I can be pretty 'non-linear' in presenting things at times)
- get better at dealing with people who 'jump' on me about what I might have said (eg. not get caught up in flaming responses and the like)
- get better at getting my ego out of my way (still lots of work to do on that one)
- get better at getting my head out of my *ss (a project all in itself)
- and so on.


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## DSJOHN

Saul_Surfaces said:


> DSJOHN, hope you aren't too sorry. I enjoy your posts. Mudstar on the other hand, is a bit like high humidity around a mudding project. . . frustrating and annoying, but hard to get rid of.


Thanx, Ive learned a few new things here, and nice to get a compliment, I am sure he,s very good at what he does as are you!! Not one of us is any better than the other,just my 2cts worth. Its not how much we make or the title after our name that counts--------it comes down to------are you a good person;PERIOD:yes:


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## Saul_Surfaces

JustMe said:


> Besides using discussion forums for enjoyment, I also use them to:
> 
> - get better at trying to get my point(s) across better (I can be pretty 'non-linear' in presenting things at times)
> - get better at dealing with people who 'jump' on me about what I might have said (eg. not get caught up in flaming responses and the like)
> - get better at getting my ego out of my way (still lots of work to do on that one)
> - get better at getting my head out of my *ss (a project all in itself)
> - and so on.


ditto. thanks


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## Tim0282

SlimPickins said:


> It took me a few hours to do the math and the typing :whistling2: but I thought it was important that we have some of these really important answers to the questions that have been plaguing us since the dawn of sheetrock :yes: (and it wasn't midnight here!)


Didn't consider the time difference. :blush: (note the red face)


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## SlimPickins

Tim0282 said:


> Didn't consider the time difference. :blush: (note the red face)


I figured that was case. Awwww....you're blushing, that's cute! :laughing:


And in general, I tend to agree with JustMe on the ways we can use forums to improve how we interact with others. I'd like to make a formal apology for my abrasiveness in some of my posts. It's not my job to call out improper behavior, and I should stick to ignoring it rather than feeding into it.

There are a lot of skilled and helpful people on here, and I'm happy to have found a place to have a dialogue about the issues we face on a daily basis. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything (or anything even remotely close to everything).:yes:


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## Tim0282

Mudstar, point well taken. And same goes to Slim and everyody else that puts their two cents or two bucks in. As for me, I appreciate all of your ideas, opinions, experiences and all that stuff! Thanks for taking the time on here. It not only is good help, sometimes it is good entertainment!:surrender:


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## Capt-sheetrock

Well guys,,,, let me tell ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never mind,,,,

All of us can learn something new everyday, if we want too. If we think we have already learned it all, then all we can do is tell others we know it all and they are not there there yet.

Kinda makes ya wonder why we are here,,, 

Persoanlly, I come here for the comradery(I know I can't speal for sheet),
I learn new tricks, and I try to pass some tips on to others that are struggling with things that I have come across before.


I come here cause I'm a drywaller, and I like to hang out with other drywallers, even if they don't agree with me,,, heck that ain't no big deal,, most of the world don't agree with me.....:thumbup: or you either !!!!


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## Tim0282

You are so right, Capt.! :rockon:


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## JustMe

DSJOHN said:


> Not one of us is any better than the other,just my 2cts worth. Its not how much we make or the title after our name that counts--------it comes down to------are you a good person;PERIOD:yes:





Saul_Surfaces said:


> ditto. thanks





SlimPickins said:


> And in general, I tend to agree with JustMe on the ways we can use forums to improve how we interact with others. I'd like to make a formal apology for my abrasiveness in some of my posts. It's not my job to call out improper behavior, and I should stick to ignoring it rather than feeding into it.





Capt-sheetrock said:


> Persoanlly, I come here for the comradery





Tim0282 said:


> You are so right, Capt.! :rockon:


 
:thumbsup:

I'd say GROUP HUG FOR EVERYONE!! But, well, you know how it is ......


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