# Methods for Orange Peel ceiling



## HarryGer

Hi guys, my question involves new construction, homeowner requested an orange peel textured ceiling. This is unusual in our area (knockdown is typical), so there was controversy between the GC, the drywall sub, and he texture guys and about how this should be done. 

GC said a "first coat" should be applied, completely obscuring paper, followed by light texture.

Texture guys said a "first coat", defeats the whole purpose of orange peel. They apply a light spatter texture with paper still showing through, and the drywall sub paints the ceiling.

Drywall sub says, "I ain't painting it, GC is painting it" and round and round they went.

What is a "first coat"? Is it just the first light spray of texture? Or is it a complete coverage base coat?

Is either method acceptable?


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## thefinisher

Could be a "fog coat" where the mud is sprayed very fine at a higher pressure. This covers anything up that may show through the final texture. After that sets up you spray your final orange peel. Also gives everything a bit more uniform look. That is probably what they are talking about.


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## MrWillys

thefinisher said:


> Could be a "fog coat" where the mud is sprayed very fine at a higher pressure. This covers anything up that may show through the final texture. After that sets up you spray your final orange peel. Also gives everything a bit more uniform look. That is probably what they are talking about.


I agree a smaller nozzle and higher pressure. Ask for samples


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## HarryGer

This is a friends house, I am not involved with this job directly. They were supposed to bring out samples, but told him they got ruined in the rain, so they showed up and just started applying it. The first coat they put up was very light, about 25% texture spatter and 75% paper showing. They said that was all they were doing and that the drywall sub would paint it. Homeowner called the GC, who said, no, they were supposed to cover completely with a "first coat", then spray the final texture over that. Texture guys said they never do that with orange peel. Thats when all the back and forth started on the phone between the various parties. Meanwhile the texture guys kept spraying....

GC came out, talked to texture guys, they said they would either paint it or spray another coat of texture, criss crossing original coat. They did the latter which made it worse I think they tried to put it on thick to cover better, but it just ended up thick in the middle of the strokes.. It is very inconsistent and paper still showing through. GC had them come back out and spray another fine coat over that. Helped a little, but can still see every strokes and they are all over the place in different directions . Sorta like when you use spray paint and hold the can too close. Still see paper showing through in places. Makes the whole ceiling look like it is warped. It is a big house, big open rooms.

Not sure what the GC is going to do about it. Not even sure what they CAN do now to fix this....it would help to know orange peel is supposed to be done in the first place and where the process went wrong.


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## Mudslinger

thefinisher said:


> Could be a "fog coat" where the mud is sprayed very fine at a higher pressure. This covers anything up that may show through the final texture. After that sets up you spray your final orange peel. Also gives everything a bit more uniform look. That is probably what they are talking about.


This works, but is the texture guy going to be compensated for it? That is definitely an upcharge if I was doing it. Sounds more like a cheap GC who doesn't want to pay a painter, and is pushing the drywall subs around.


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## Mudslinger

HarryGer said:


> Hi guys, my question involves new construction, homeowner requested an orange peel textured ceiling. This is unusual in our area (knockdown is typical), so there was controversy between the GC, the drywall sub, and he texture guys and about how this should be done.
> 
> GC said a "first coat" should be applied, completely obscuring paper, followed by light texture.
> 
> Texture guys said a "first coat", defeats the whole purpose of orange peel. They apply a light spatter texture with paper still showing through, and the drywall sub paints the ceiling.
> 
> Drywall sub says, "I ain't painting it, GC is painting it" and round and round they went.
> 
> What is a "first coat"? Is it just the first light spray of texture? Or is it a complete coverage base coat?
> 
> Is either method acceptable?


The GC could be talking about priming before texture with USG first coat.
https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/.../primers/usg-sheetrock-first-coat-primer.html Priming first will help the orangepeel to have a uniform texture, but is going to cost more than just spraying orangepeel by itself.


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## HarryGer

Thanks very much for the input. No doubt the GC has a role in this mixup, 

Still looking for an answer to the basic question, what is the typical or proper method/process to create an orange peel ceiling?


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## Mudslinger

There's many variations of orange peel(glob size/coverage), some cover the drywall more then others. If your not paying the drywaller for priming before texture it's totally acceptable to see some of drywall paper, because it's being primed and painted afterwards by a painter. Both will be orange peel, but priming first has the potential to be a more uniform texture. Just comes down to what is being paid for.


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## endo_alley

I used to spray lots of orange peel decades ago. Nobody would ask for a spray on texture around here anymore. It went out of style with shag carpet and dayglo one piece ski suits. You certainly can prime the walls ahead of time. But it isn't necessary. The texture we liked to do best was to first spray a medium/light orange peel. and then turn up the air pressure and turn down the mud flow and immediately fog over the top. This texture looked very much like the surface of an orange. Yet it gave decent coverage. Most of the wall was covered with some kind of mud. You need a fairly powerful spray set up with good air flow to do this. A hand hopper arrangement probably won't cut it. When we saw sparse, splatter on textures done by non professionals, we called that a "Banana Peel Texture" . Because often it looked as if the spray guy had slipped on a banana peel while trying to do the texture.


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## Mudslinger

endo_alley said:


> I used to spray lots of orange peel decades ago. Nobody would ask for a spray on texture around here anymore. It went out of style with shag carpet and dayglo one piece ski suits. You certainly can prime the walls ahead of time. But it isn't necessary. The texture we liked to do best was to first spray a medium/light orange peel. and then turn up the air pressure and turn down the mud flow and immediately fog over the top. This texture looked very much like the surface of an orange. Yet it gave decent coverage. Most of the wall was covered with some kind of mud. You need a fairly powerful spray set up with good air flow to do this. A hand hopper arrangement probably won't cut it. When we saw sparse, splatter on textures done by non professionals, we called that a "Banana Peel Texture" . Because often it looked as if the spray guy had slipped on a banana peel while trying to do the texture.


Your description of orange peel reminds me of a popcorn style I run into from the 60's. There was only one aggregate size on the trucks so they would spray the ceiling then immediately turn down the air to put out large globs if the homeowner wanted a coarse texture. It was called a gob job, ugliest texture I think I've ever seen. What was considered good air on your spray rigs back then? The big spray trucks in my area were running Graco bulldog pumps, with 100cfm Quincy air compressors powered by Wisconsin motors.


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## endo_alley

Mudslinger said:


> Your description of orange peel reminds me of a popcorn style I run into from the 60's. There was only one aggregate size on the trucks so they would spray the ceiling then immediately turn down the air to put out large globs if the homeowner wanted a coarse texture. It was called a gob job, ugliest texture I think I've ever seen. What was considered good air on your spray rigs back then? The big spray trucks in my area were running Graco bulldog pumps, with 100cfm Quincy air compressors powered by Wisconsin motors.


I always had a secondary inline gas compressor. Up at over 7000 feet nothing put out enough air. As for the texture, ever look at an orange? That's what I am talking about. Maybe a grapefruit. Popcorn went out in the seventies here. Orange peel in the mid eighties.


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## Mudslinger

endo_alley said:


> I always had a secondary inline gas compressor. Up at over 7000 feet nothing put out enough air. As for the texture, ever look at an orange? That's what I am talking about. Maybe a grapefruit. Popcorn went out in the seventies here. Orange peel in the mid eighties.


Come on man I know what orange peel looks, I was just talking shop. My spray truck is still up and running it's not collecting dust. 

So how many cfm per compressor are we talking about? Just curious because most the old spray rigs running 2L3 pumps only had around 18-23cfm. If that's it at your elevation I could see needing 2, but man what a pain in the a$$ lol.


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## HarryGer

I think it went something like this. Typically new homes are done with full coverage knockdown. They put up a "first coat" of smooth mud, followed by second coat of knockdown texture. All mud, no primer, no paint. Orange peel is unusual.

GC assumed drywall company would completely cover ceiling as with knockdown, no painting necessary. Drywall company assumed light spatter coat with ceiling painted by GC. 

GC was bound and determined he wasn't going to paint, so insisted that drywall contractor applied additional texture coats (2) to cover better. Still does not cover. May have made it worse

At this point just gotta figure out how to make it look good. Every stroke is visible. Not sure if it is because I can still see the contrast from the paper and tape seams, or because the strokes themselves are uneven/sprayed too close.....if it is the former, paint should solve the problem. If it is the latter, it won't

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwZ8hcWpAp7WYUg4V1NlN2tsd2M


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## endo_alley

Mudslinger said:


> Come on man I know what orange peel looks, I was just talking shop. My spray truck is still up and running it's not collecting dust.
> 
> So how many cfm per compressor are we talking about? Just curious because most the old spray rigs running 2L3 pumps only had around 18-23cfm. If that's it at your elevation I could see needing 2, but man what a pain in the a$$ lol.


I don't really know. Seems like you need a lot of air to break up a very fine orange peel. But as I have said, we don't do spray texture here any more. Haven't since 1990 or so.


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## Mudslinger

HarryGer said:


> I think it went something like this. Typically new homes are done with full coverage knockdown. They put up a "first coat" of smooth mud, followed by second coat of knockdown texture. All mud, no primer, no paint. Orange peel is unusual.
> 
> GC assumed drywall company would completely cover ceiling as with knockdown, no painting necessary. Drywall company assumed light spatter coat with ceiling painted by GC.
> 
> GC was bound and determined he wasn't going to paint, so insisted that drywall contractor applied additional texture coats (2) to cover better. Still does not cover. May have made it worse
> 
> At this point just gotta figure out how to make it look good. Every stroke is visible. Not sure if it is because I can still see the contrast from the paper and tape seams, or because the strokes themselves are uneven/sprayed too close.....if it is the former, paint should solve the problem. If it is the latter, it won't
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwZ8hcWpAp7WYUg4V1NlN2tsd2M


I wish you would have explained about the no paint knockdown, tells a little about where the GC' head is. After the fact it should have just been painted, but that's hind site. Without being on the job I would say you could try to do a more even fog over the top, but chances are it won't get rid of the striping they've put in. Worst case scenario you either sand all it off or do a skim coat, and start from square one. It's hard for me to say without being on the job myself. Doesn't sound like anyone is going to make money on this one.


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## endo_alley

Mudslinger said:


> I wish you would have explained about the no paint knockdown, tells a little about where the GC' head is. After the fact it should have just been painted, but that's hind site. Without being on the job I would say you could try to do a more even fog over the top, but chances are it won't get rid of the striping they've put in. Worst case scenario you either sand all it off or do a skim coat, and start from square one. It's hard for me to say without being on the job myself. Doesn't sound like anyone is going to make money on this one.


keep spraying. It'll go away.


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## Mudslinger

endo_alley said:


> keep spraying. It'll go away.


For the drywaller's sake I hope spraying cures the problem.


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## HarryGer

Thanks guys. There is a link to a pic on my last post if you want to see it.

Just got an update, now, they plan to paint it with flat ceiling white.

The "striping" is the main problem. If it is mostly the paper showing through, painting should make it look nice. If the "striping" is more because the strokes are heavy in the center and not lapping uniformly, then the "stripes" might continue to show through the paint.


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## endo_alley

HarryGer said:


> Thanks guys. There is a link to a pic on my last post if you want to see it.
> 
> Just got an update, now, they plan to paint it with flat ceiling white.
> 
> The "striping" is the main problem. If it is mostly the paper showing through, painting should make it look nice. If the "striping" is more because the strokes are heavy in the center and not lapping uniformly, then the "stripes" might continue to show through the paint.


The striping is from the spray passes being to far apart with not enough overlap. You could carefully re spray the dry empty spots with more texture, and then put a fine mist over the entire surface. Paint won't fix a bad texture.


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## HarryGer

endo_alley said:


> The striping is from the spray passes being to far apart with not enough overlap. You could carefully re spray the dry empty spots with more texture, and then put a fine mist over the entire surface. Paint won't fix a bad texture.


That is exactly what they already did, tried to fill in, then fog coated it, BEFORE this picture, so now they have decided to paint...ill let you know how it turns out. It isn't really my problem, just trying to help a friend.


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## HarryGer

Mudslinger said:


> I wish you would have explained about the no paint knockdown, tells a little about where the GC' head is. After the fact it should have just been painted, but that's hind site. Without being on the job I would say you could try to do a more even fog over the top, but chances are it won't get rid of the striping they've put in. Worst case scenario you either sand all it off or do a skim coat, and start from square one. It's hard for me to say without being on the job myself. Doesn't sound like anyone is going to make money on this one.


I don't really know where his head is at, mostly speculating. From what I know of the GC he is difficult to deal with and never uses the same subs twice. He prefers them cheap and inexperienced. He is building a custom home for my friend and it has been a rough ride for her.

The drywall guy I always used sprayed a full coverage coat of mud (not primer) then covered it with knockdown or orange peel. He was an old fella and passed away recently. I know that's the way everyone around here did knockdown 20 years ago and I assumed that was the way everyone still did it, but maybe he was just set in his old ways.

Thanks for all,your input.


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## HarryGer

One final question... Nobody does slick ceilings around here, everybody does knock down, which to me is Just AWFUL. What is a good compromise for folks who would prefer a plain ceiling but can't afford the premium cost? Is orange peel the best alternative? What process would you take to make it look good?


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## Mudslinger

HarryGer said:


> One final question... Nobody does slick ceilings around here, everybody does knock down, which to me is Just AWFUL. What is a good compromise for folks who would prefer a plain ceiling but can't afford the premium cost? Is orange peel the best alternative? What process would you take to make it look good?


Glad I could you out, hopefully it works out for your friend. I would try to stay within texture the guys in your area are comfortable with. You could do a google image search for drywall texture for some ideas of what you like. Imperfect smooth is an interesting one. If it were my own house, and I wanted orange peel I would prime it beforehand. 

Just for the he!! of it here's a member on here Drywallmike08 spraying orange peel if you want to see a pro making it look easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8szwqKkqdE&list=FL5pkhJ1ejvnT0I7g3tOY00Q&index=4


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## endo_alley

HarryGer said:


> One final question... Nobody does slick ceilings around here, everybody does knock down, which to me is Just AWFUL. What is a good compromise for folks who would prefer a plain ceiling but can't afford the premium cost? Is orange peel the best alternative? What process would you take to make it look good?


A very light skip trowel, flattened smooth and then lightly sanded when it is dry, is a popular wall or ceiling texture around here. One builder we work for wants the light skip trowel on the walls, and a level 5 smooth on the ceilings. He often paints the ceilings white, with a little color to the walls. Sometimes he has us do an integral color plaster on the walls, and leave the ceilings smooth.


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## HarryGer

Thanks,
I have requested smooth ceilings on several occasions and was always told it would be VERY VERY expensive as compared to knockdown, so never went through with it or sought other bids. Reflecting back, maybe he just didn't want to do smooth (used same guy for years who has since passed on)

For future reference, how much more expensive SHOULD smooth ceilings be over knockdown (approx in your area per sf or percentage). I realize the prep labor is much more, but the texturing materials are less.

Also, should orange peel cost less, more or the same as knockdown?


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## HarryGer

Mudslinger said:


> Just for the he!! of it here's a member on here Drywallmike08 spraying orange peel if you want to see a pro making it look easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8szwqKkqdE&list=FL5pkhJ1ejvnT0I7g3tOY00Q&index=4


Yes, Mike held his magic wand much father away from the wall than the guys that did my friend's house. They had it about a foot away, Maybe that is why it is striped. 

They painted it with latex ceiling white yesterday, color is now uniform but the strokes are still very apparent, like you said paint can't fix a bad texture. I'm assuming the paint locks it in making it even harder to fix now. Friend is out of town for 30 days, will see what she thinks when she gets back.


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## endo_alley

HarryGer said:


> Thanks,
> I have requested smooth ceilings on several occasions and was always told it would be VERY VERY expensive as compared to knockdown, so never went through with it or sought other bids. Reflecting back, maybe he just didn't want to do smooth (used same guy for years who has since passed on)
> 
> For future reference, how much more expensive SHOULD smooth ceilings be over knockdown (approx in your area per sf or percentage). I realize the prep labor is much more, but the texturing materials are less.
> 
> Also, should orange peel cost less, more or the same as knockdown?


If your drywaller doesn't do much smooth wall, then yeah it will cost much more. He may have to re learn the finishing trade to do the work. Butt joints need shimming. Better rock job. As far as the difference between light O.P. and spray knockdown, Spray knock down is a little more work to apply. But it saves a fair amount in finishing. Spray knockdown requires a decent level three finish. A light O.P. texture requires a level four finish.


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