# Drywall screw pops but not really...



## Mark Hammond II (Feb 7, 2015)

Hey guys just wondering if there is any definite answer out there as to the problems that we are getting over the course of the past year concerning screw pops. At least that is what they look like. When you push on the drywall though there is no movement. The board doesn't bounce and you don't see the screw move. The crazy thing is that our jobs look great for the first 2-3 months and then all of a sudden we have these issues on our smooth ceilings and some walls. We switched board companies from national to USG thinking it was that. We were gluing a 1/4" continuous bead on our ceilings, screwing the perimeters and placing 3 screws in each field 5/8" drywall on 24" o/c trusses using an 1 5/8" coarse thread screw and an 1 1/4" coarse thread screw on 16" o/c with 1/2" drywall. However for about the last 3 months we started dabbing our glue which is what we have always done on our walls, still placing the same number of screws in the field and perimeter. Like I said the walls we dab glue and only place two screws in the field every third stud when the board is over 8' or longer. The issue we are having is the same issue many other drywall contractors are having in the area of Michigan that we are located. I have a very respected business known for our quality but this issue is making us all look bad. Not sure if it's the lightweight drywall. Never seem to remember having this issue with regular. I have done a lot of research into the glues we have used and are currently using. With all the changes to the voc's the past couple of years I have actually found and have been using a solvent based glue when much of what is available is a water based. The water based glues make no sense when you have winters like Michigan. Many of our jobs in the winter are heated with salamanders during the hanging phase (not the finishing, too much moisture) and with heat on the inside and a cold attic, condensation can sometimes occur and I have felt if you're using a water based glue it would defeat the purpose and you would not get the proper bond. However I have heard from others that say we shouldn't glue our lids because as the glue cures it can actually pull the drywall tighter to the truss/joist causing the appearance of a screw pop. I'm thinking of on the next few jobs switching to an 1 1/4" screw for walls and ceilings and not gluing my ceilings at all and continuing to dab the glue on the walls. I don't think it's a mud issue as many other contractors in the area I've talked with use different muds than I. So that leads me to believe it's either the glue or drywall. Also I just had to take care of a repair in a house involving this situation that was finished this last July and looked great until just recently. Anyone else having these issues and have you had any luck in correcting them? Sorry in advance for the novel and I appreciate your input!


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Hi Mark, there have been three different threads on the same topic in the last few weeks. Use the search function to check them out. The general consensus is bad timber.


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Check your framing with a moisture meter before hanging! If lumber is too wet then you don't have a fighting chance. When using the glue try to use the least amount of screws possible and don't screw through the glue. Look up how the Aussies hang their houses.... that is the best way.


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Don't use lightweight mud for the first coat. It doesn't seem to stick well to screw heads.


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## Mark Hammond II (Feb 7, 2015)

We tape and spot our screws with all purpose green lid USG the first time. All other coats are done with pro-form lite blue.


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## Mark Hammond II (Feb 7, 2015)

Anyone think that it could have something to do with the paints. With all the changes being made by the EPA and their regulations regarding the VOC's. It seems as if even a flat paint doesn't cover as well as it used to.


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## cracker (Nov 3, 2013)

No your problem is not mud or paint...its high moisture lumber. Check your lumber before you hang with moisture meter!! should be less than 15%


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

cracker said:


> No your problem is not mud or paint...its high moisture lumber. Check your lumber before you hang with moisture meter!! should be less than 15%


Then what ? Wait a few years before we hang the board?

BTW ..I agree with you!


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

The glue has little to do with It . IMO. I've seen homes that were hung with no glue ..loaded with screws !! They all popped .


The trick is to glue the ever loving piss out of the house and use as few field screws as possible . I pull the field screws on the walls after the block coat .Then cross my fingers on the lids . 


I went back to a home I did 3 months ago .. no screw pops on the walls . but I did see 3-5 on each ceiling . Nobody said anything ! 

My point is ... The less they see ! The less they bitch ! Eliminate the field screws . You eliminate the callbacks . The pops on the walls are the ones they notice first When they see that first one ! Your ****ed! That's when they search . And they will find!



Thank God for can lights! :whistling2:


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## cracker (Nov 3, 2013)

moore said:


> Then what ? Wait a few years before we hang the board?
> 
> BTW ..I agree with you!


There is no good answer for this chit. I've been battling this sometime...getting worse every year. I think the biggest thing you can do is make sure the builder knows why its happening, and make sure you get paid to come back and fix. This is why i tell people i cant warranty their job for a year...I would love too..but cant.


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

I never go back to a job after I finish it!:thumbup:
They can keep their screw pops to themselves!


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## Ezock (Jul 4, 2012)

I did a large home last November. It was an older plaster home that was completely gutted and redone like a new home except the lumber. 2300 square feet on each floor with all smooth ceilings. This last week I went back to help paint. Primer coat was already done right after taping back then as well as the ceiling being painted. Main floor ceiling looks good but basement ceiling has what look like nail pops everywhere. I mean almost every single screw! I thought floor joist movement or possibly even lumber shrinking from moisture accumulating in summer during reno but then I remembered we had even put resilient channel throughout.

Now, I know the screws were good, I get on the guys about that stuff. Also when pressing drywall all over there is no movement as a regular screw pop would show, just a round cap slightly protruding out of the drywall. The only thing left that makes sense is drywall shrunk. VERY FRUSTRATING!!


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

What did you first coat the screws with? Were they set too deep? Was there too much insulation blown in?


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## McCallum and Sons (Nov 3, 2013)

I have had the same exact issue with some of the big, all smooth houses we have been doing. I think that it is the result of using propane or kerosene during installation. The drywall is so porous that with all the moisture the heaters put out that the drywall swells, just slightly. You do the mud work, finish etc and then they turn on the heat and the drywall dries out and shrinks leaving the mud sticking out to the point where the drywall had swelled. I have sanded the screws back down flush and got away with it on a few. I also agree that it can have a lot to do with the framing and quality of the lumber. I've had a few houses that the framers have braced the roof down to ceiling joists and caused a rolling effect making all the seams pop in the center. They use the cheapest lumber, and framers and then expect it to look perfect.


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

If the primer is sprayed on it seems to swell the paper a little and then shrink back. The primer coat should be rolled on.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

endo_alley said:


> What did you first coat the screws with? Were they set too deep? Was there too much insulation blown in?


That Aint got Jack to do with nothing.


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## Grandon's Drywall (Jun 14, 2013)

*Board shrinkage is the problem*

I am replying to the popped screws that so many finishers are experiencing. Please refer to the www.dwfc.com, Drywall Finishing Council. I have been having the same problem for the last two years but it's been the worst in the last year. If you talk to your supplier it's always blamed on wood shrinkage, improper installation always the other guy's fault. Now let's put this in perspective. If you put screws in the middle field on the so called 1/2" light rock or any thing else you want to call it, it will pop as temperature and humidity in the sheet rock changes. I used screw along with gluing it to the stud so if the sheet is flat and bonded to the stud and the wood shrinks how is it possible for the wood to push the screw out from the face of the sheet it's not possible but really the sheet rock has shrunk as the wood has. I could go on for day's on this issue. There is two more issues that have became apparent with the new sheet rock it's called Ridging and Racking caused by to much humidity or not enough humidity and change of hot to cold temps as stated on the Drywall Finishing Council webb site. Please look up Drywall Finishing Council.
I'v been dry walling for the last 45 years and have never had so much problems is we do now. I don't nail any more as this crushes the gypsum from the paper, I glue all wall studs and only screw perimeters, joints and butt joint's. If you follow this you will stop the problem of screw pops on the field.


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Hey mate easy fix stop screwing walls... obviously u still need to screw all edges. 1... your asking for unstraight walls where if only glue is used it floats it out what we do hear in australia is make up blocks at 200x200 mm for every sheet over 3 metres put one one in the centre of the sheet every second stud with a nail through it and once it is dry you remove the block the purpose of this is to leave the tiny pin hole less chance of seeing buldge from screw whole.....or just screw your studs as usuall down the guts and when it comes to finishing just remove the screws and .....no screws = no pops!!!!!!


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## cracker (Nov 3, 2013)

how is it possible for the wood to push the screw out from the face of the sheet it's not possible but really the sheet rock has shrunk as the wood has


Think about this. How is it possible for this tree to grow around the metal and and not push it when it grows. A wood stud is that process in reverse, with metal in it. When wood shrinks back the metal stays in the same place...screw head rises up


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

moore said:


> That Aint got Jack to do with nothing.


 What are you talking about? If you use lightweight mud on the first coat it may not bond well to the screw heads. If the screws go in too deep, they will eventually break the paper. And if the insulation is thicker than the stud cavities, it will try to push the sheet away from the wall. All of these things cause the slight popping of screws that was mentioned.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

endo_alley said:


> What are you talking about? If you use lightweight mud on the first coat it may not bond well to the screw heads. If the screws go in too deep, they will eventually break the paper. And if the insulation is thicker than the stud cavities, it will try to push the sheet away from the wall. All of these things cause the slight popping of screws that was mentioned.


Don't spot your field screws with light weight mud. or hot-mud.

Insulation has nothing to do with screw pops . Do you have a problem with the batts pushing out on the exterior walls??


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

moore said:


> Don't spot your field screws with light weight mud. or hot-mud.
> 
> Insulation has nothing to do with screw pops . Do you have a problem with the batts pushing out on the exterior walls??


Yes, insulation pushes the rock away from the walls. Especially cellulose insulation. We give the builder an option for double screwing whenever the insulation is proud of the wall studs. And as for not using light weight for the first coat on screws; well yeah, that was my point.


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## Mark Hammond II (Feb 7, 2015)

Most of my issues with the screw buttons ( which is what Usg is now calling them) has been on smooth ceilings. As of a couple weeks ago I instructed my guys to no longer glue the ceilings which is is how we did it for years up until the last two years and since we started is when we have had problems. I have received some paperwork from USG in regards to this issue and they have done some studies. The glue seems to be the blame. They talk about the glue shrinking back after curing and pulling the drywall tighter to the stud/truss giving the appearance of a screw pop. The board doesn't bounce like a typical screw pop because the glue is holding it. I think the changes the last couple of years by glue manufacturers due to the changes in low VOC's imposed by the EPA have caused this. In their studies Usg used multiple glues and even no glue. They mention it could take 48 hours to 4 months for the glue to fully cure depending on humidity and temp. This all makes sense to me and for these reasons I'm going to give it a shot. Also I've switched back to using an 1 1/4" screw for my walls and ceilings instead of using 1 5/8" for 5/8" drywall and 1 1/4" for 1/2". I figure the less screw shank in the wood the less it can move.


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

This is why we use daubs of glue not lines. The screw must be 8 inches away from the glue daub.


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

gazman said:


> This is why we use daubs of glue not lines. The screw must be 8 inches away from the glue daub.



Problem solved. 

Now USG needs to put it in there book. 


http://youtu.be/Mx0xCI1jaUM


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Here is the Gyprock residential guide. Pages 18-22 cover this very well.

http://www.gyprock.com.au/Documents/GYPROCK-547-Residential_Installation_Guide-201111.pdf


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Wo wo wo steady there so gazman your telling me the americanos use.a line.of glue wow ur asking for trouble glue shrinks and expands yeah any troubles you guys have refer to our brand gyprock thats our high end brand and from what i have heard the highest standard of drywall brand in the world


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Yep, different fixing systems. And yes lines of glue are used by some, most dont use any glue, the whole sheet is screwed. Keep in mind there are different codes and different climates to deal with. some parts of north America have a vapor barrier so glue is impossible.


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## super rocker (Jul 8, 2009)

gazman said:


> Here is the Gyprock residential guide. Pages 18-22 cover this very well.
> 
> http://www.gyprock.com.au/Documents/GYPROCK-547-Residential_Installation_Guide-201111.pdf[


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## Ezock (Jul 4, 2012)

I know insulation was not the culprit because of floor joists not being insulated. Glue was not the culprit because drywall was attached to resilient channel. Screws were set pretty well perfect throughout. Home was heated with regular furnace which was shut off during sanding. Also everything was double screwed for extra measure which now seems like a waste of time seeing how they pop out in two's.

One possibility I am pondering on that was mentioned, it was spray primed but backrolled right behind.


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## Ezock (Jul 4, 2012)

As for coating screws, use CGC machine mud pretty well straight out of the box for each coat


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Ezock said:


> I know insulation was not the culprit because of floor joists not being insulated. Glue was not the culprit because drywall was attached to resilient channel. Screws were set pretty well perfect throughout. Home was heated with regular furnace which was shut off during sanding. Also everything was double screwed for extra measure which now seems like a waste of time seeing how they pop out in two's.
> 
> One possibility I am pondering on that was mentioned, it was spray primed but backrolled right behind.


 You want them to backroll.... this will take some of the moisture back out while laying the fuzzed up paper back down. Your problem sounds like a moisture problem. Was the areas sealed up really tight while they primed? watered down primer? I have seen problems arise from painters masking off everything super tight and spraying a ton of primer on the ceilings. Air gets saturated with moisture and the only place for it to go is into the board.


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

One thing I would try, is popping one or two of the "buttons" out of the wall with a small putty knife. If the button pops out pretty much intact, you know it didn't stick well to the screw head. If it puts up a fight because it wants to stick to the screw head, then you know it was a swelling problem.


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

There is still the mystery oil coating on the screws.... perhaps it plays a role.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

thefinisher said:


> There is still the mystery oil coating on the screws.... perhaps it plays a role.


I think there are many rolls that come into play .

Glue is one. I agree with the Aussies on the glue.:yes::yes::yes::yes:

Wet green lumber is another

Wet sheet rock is a biggie!

The painters soaking the board with a spray ....[?]

In Proper heat during construction . High humidity in the summer Months ?

Lin seed oil coated screws ? 

Spotting the field screws with hot mud is a big no no. Trust me!



Throw all that together ??? How can you win?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

thefinisher said:


> Air gets saturated with moisture and the only place for it to go is into the board.


Sheet rock will soak up moisture ..Yes. But this light weight board Is like a freakin SPONGE!!! It's mostly air ! The light weight board Is the worst thing That's happened to this industry since drywall was invented !!


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

moore said:


> I think there are many rolls that come into play .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why no hot mud for spotting screws? 


http://youtu.be/wtJ1Gnh9wPU


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## D A Drywall (May 4, 2013)

Ya, why no hot mud? I've been doing that for years now. Mix a batch for prefill and hit the screws before it goes off. Least amount of shrinkage of all the muds available to me.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> Why no hot mud for spotting screws?
> 
> 
> http://youtu.be/wtJ1Gnh9wPU


Won't stick.


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

The hot mud i use sticks like chit on a blanket. 


http://youtu.be/wtJ1Gnh9wPU


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

What brand do you use? Proform? USG? Confill?


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

USG, brown bag. 


http://youtu.be/wtJ1Gnh9wPU


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Ah, good old durabond . never used it myself never even seen it


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

Yeah, i like the tuff stuff. I'll mop it smooth as its setting. 

All i see around here is USG. Some places only have 45, but i'll go out of my way to get 90. 




http://youtu.be/wtJ1Gnh9wPU


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## aaron (Jun 19, 2013)

D A Drywall said:


> Ya, why no hot mud? I've been doing that for years now. Mix a batch for prefill and hit the screws before it goes off. Least amount of shrinkage of all the muds available to me.


That's exactly what I've been doing. I like the low shrinkage, haven't had any problems, find that hot mud saves a trip over the screws. I finish them with my regular finish mud


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

aaron said:


> That's exactly what I've been doing. I like the low shrinkage, haven't had any problems, find that hot mud saves a trip over the screws. I finish them with my regular finish mud


All durabond products, especially brown bag mud, sags just before it sets. So that stuff will leave a little hump on the screw that must be sanded off before the second coat. It works better to use it for second coat, after using taping or hard all purpose for the first coat.


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

This is what i was talking about earlier guys in aus we dont put any screws on our walls just 4 dobs of glue in between top of sheet and join then put tempory blocks to hold it back untill glue dried then remove prevention is better then cure.....dont have the screw = no screw pop


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

embella plaster said:


> This is what i was talking about earlier guys in aus we dont put any screws on our walls just 4 dobs of glue in between top of sheet and join then put tempory blocks to hold it back untill glue dried then remove prevention is better then cure.....dont have the screw = no screw pop


 How do you get the glue to stick to the plastic vapor barrier? Or the "cheese clothe" netting that the insulators put over the framing?


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

endo_alley said:


> How do you get the glue to stick to the plastic vapor barrier? Or the "cheese clothe" netting that the insulators put over the framing?


We dont have that its insulation with no barrier


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## aaron (Jun 19, 2013)

I found this article tonight, they have tied the screw pops to the low VOC glue that's out there that shrinks as it cures, pushing out the screw button. It makes sense to me, seems like they eliminated the possibilities....


http://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_...-issues-eccomendations-white-paper-WB2757.pdf


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Interesting article Aaron, just confirms what we have known for many years in AU. That is why we use daubs of glue not lines, and no fasteners within 8 inches of glue daubs.


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## prwint (Dec 28, 2014)

I believe but the problem is the board is close to being tight to the framing members when the screws are countersunk properly, but not quite. There are a lot of factors, was your job loaded in the rain, is it an insulated wall, ultra light board that is far less dense, screw heads that are 50% smaller than in the 70s & 80's. (if you don't believe me check the demolition drywall from an older job)
If the back of the board is not slammed tight against the framing members when you put a pole sander on it to sand it the pressure used to sand will push the board against the framing member and sand the mud directly over the screw flush. When you remove the pressure the board will relax away from the framing member and your screws will look slightly hollow.

I have been dealing with this for years. The best way to test it is when you first start a house coat all of the screws on a 12 foot sheet and then put a screw right beside them before the mud is dry. It is better to find out on taping day then on sanding day. If the board tightens up the mud will stay proud of the face of the board and it is easy to spot. If I find more than three screws that move, I break out the pouch and the screw gun and match every screw in the field on every sheet on the job. 

When I first started as a boardman 30 years ago, the board was tougher and the screwheads were larger so there was no need to hold the board tight with your left hand as you apply screws with your right hand. This does not hold true today. Because you typically hold a handful of screws in your left-hand, it can be painful to push against the board while you are putting in screws. Most boardman will not find this solution acceptable. So I have come up with two others slightly less desirable solutions. The first one it's have my boardmen put the screws in in pairs. The way they used to put nails in before the screwgun was commonly used. The second solution is to buy a rubber wine bung(you can pick them up at any wine u-brew) and force it onto the nose cone of your screw gun. leave it approximately 1/8 of an inch proud from the metal ring that makes contact with the board. The idea being that the rubber bung will make contact with the drywall first. As you finish the screw the bung will compress and force the drywall tight to the framing member before the screw is fully countersunk. You will have to push harder on the gun in order for this technique to work. A few people that have worked for me use the rubber as the new screw gun tip. This will not alleviate the problem. The downsides of this method are you need to push harder on your screw gun and if you get too big of a bung it can be a bitch to try to get your screw gun into an angle. The upside is that it actually works and does not cost you any extra time once you get used to it. 

If you spit on the center hole of the wine bung, you can force it onto most Dewalt, Makita or Hilti guns. Once you have wrestled it into the right position, wrap a bunch of electrical tape directly behind the bung to stop it from slipping. 

Of course whenever you're using glue, this particular problem is never an issue.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

cracker said:


> No your problem is not mud or paint...its high moisture lumber. Check your lumber before you hang with moisture meter!! should be less than 15%


thats exactly my thoughts are, Lumber is wet, using a salamander period is a no no, dry the place out period, before the Taper gets there, dont know how many times I let a house sit to dry before I went in, cause some mental case prefers to throw windows in during Taping, best outcome everytime:thumbsup:

or the retred who blows insulation after Tape in the winter, should hook him up to Gazzers Jiggawatt machine might, i mean might wake him up


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Failure to shim walls and ceilings, or even plane down high points in wood framing can cause low points to sit away from the framing and be more likely to pop fasteners. Too much blown in insulation can pop fasteners to. Of course then there is the question of who's responsibility is this to make all of the framing perfect. It can take a lot of extra time.


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