# NEWS!-Ames Bazooka Continuous Flow System Special



## TheToolDr

For finishers who have asked about pricing recently:
TapeTech has introduced their "Never Stop Saving" Sale, which now includes the Ames Bazooka Continuous Flow Systems up to 30% off standard pricing for the period September 1, 2011- November 30, 2011.
Systems and possible combinations may be viewed at http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/C...-Taping-Tools/
One huge advantage the Bazooka CFS has over other "continuous flow" systems is the unique, reliable proven radio frequency control which automatically feeds mud to the unit on demand. The operator is free to concentrate on his work instead of having to deal with an additional hand control.
Bazooka Continuous Flow also serves as a self-contained washing station for tools after use!
This user-friendly system is ready to go to work immediately WITHOUT the learning curve of competing systems. 
Currently TapeTech is also offering a day of jobsite demonstration/training with the purchase of complete qualifying bundles.


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## Captain Drywall

I wonder what my shoulder would be like if we had those 30 years ago?


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## Tim0282

Are you saying that makes them priced at 9100.00 instead of 13000.00? Or is it already marked down the 30%? Not trying to be contentious, just making sure.  Thank you for the info.


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## Tim0282

Captain Drywall said:


> I wonder what my shoulder would be like if we had those 30 years ago?


Skinny! Just look in the mirror and ignore the pain and admire your strong shoulders! :thumbup:


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## P.A. ROCKER

*better have some work*

I ran an aplatec system with a grayco 5000 pump on a nursing home job. Myself and another finisher could run over 20 buckets on the walls in an 8 hour day. It was insane! You better have 500+ sheets ahead of you or your going home early! It was like a tropical rain forest with all the humidity in the air.


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## JustMe

P.A. ROCKER said:


> I ran an aplatec system with a grayco 5000 pump on a nursing home job. Myself and another finisher could run over 20 buckets on the walls in an 8 hour day. It was insane! You better have 500+ sheets ahead of you or your going home early! It was like a tropical rain forest with all the humidity in the air.


How was it to bring those buckets to a finished stage - ie. all sanded and checked out and ready for final paint? Just as easy and quick, or about as easy and quick, as if you had done it your traditional way? (if your traditional way was doing it using automatic tools)

Did you use the earlier Apla coaters, or the newer slim line boxes?


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## TheToolDr

Tim0282 said:


> Are you saying that makes them priced at 9100.00 instead of 13000.00? Or is it already marked down the 30%? Not trying to be contentious, just making sure.  Thank you for the info.


The prices are reduced 24-30% on bundle selections. Pricing shown on site http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/Continuous-Flow-Taping-Tools/ is current reduced price.
And per earlier post, Yes! If you have a lot of board to finish, this is an awesome (profitable) way to do it!


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## rhardman

I want to be absolutely respectful... _but I do have a question._

Specifically, item by item...

Why (in your opinion) is the Ames system better than Apla Tech?




.


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## P.A. ROCKER

JustMe said:


> How was it to bring those buckets to a finished stage - ie. all sanded and checked out and ready for final paint? Just as easy and quick, or about as easy and quick, as if you had done it your traditional way? (if your traditional way was doing it using automatic tools)
> 
> Did you use the earlier Apla coaters, or the newer slim line boxes?


It was current for 2008. We used the Apla coaters and no they didn't leave it finish grade. Everything had to be wiped by hand. I'd say it was good enough for commercial work. Still way faster than any other means, by far. The flat box attachment would have been the best bet in my opinion for higher quality(then had to use your own flat boxes). The Apla tec just fills the box with the squeeze of the trigger, you still have to push the mud outta the box. But with a 20 gallon supply of mud at your finger tips production is unmatched.


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## JustMe

P.A. ROCKER said:


> I'd say it was good enough for commercial work. Still way faster than any other means, by far.


Thanks, P.A.

This is where confusion reigns for me a bit. If it's so much faster, why are guys cursing their cfs systems, and letting them collect dust in their garages. Could it be that you just have an above ordinary knack for running tools, even ones that aren't that co-operative? &/or a # of your types of jobs and job sizes made cfs tools make more sense than their jobs and job sizes did?

A new hire was telling me the other week about how his dad had over time come to throwing all his Apla cfs attachments across rooms in the new houses they were doing - except for the angle coaters.


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## gazman

As one of the blokes that has one sitting in the garage. THE COATERS ARE IMO CRAP. The rest of the system is good if you have the volume of work that it can do. But that is IMO a lot of volume. The trouble is once it is coated it has to dry and that takes time. So unless you have the volume to run out 20 buckets it is a waste of time especially when you take into consideration clean up. I tried running hot mud to get over the drying problem but the time saved is lost in clean up. So I think the simple answer is large volume.


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## chris

a guy tried sellin us some of the tools ur all talkin about. He came to jobsite and all, we werent impressed. Too much setup time imo. We could have boxed apt. out in time it took to set up. Granted the mud supply is nice and not having to fill tools manually but I feel the bulky setup would be a pain to haul around,clean, maneuver on some jobs,stairwells,scaffold work. As long as cub keeps my bucket full I aint mixin:thumbsup: It is electric right? Finding a good power source can be difficult on some sites. Kinda feel the same about portable spray machines... alot of work just to do work.


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## JustMe

gazman said:


> As one of the blokes that has one sitting in the garage. THE COATERS ARE IMO CRAP. The rest of the system is good if you have the volume of work that it can do. But that is IMO a lot of volume. The trouble is once it is coated it has to dry and that takes time. So unless you have the volume to run out 20 buckets it is a waste of time especially when you take into consideration clean up. I tried running hot mud to get over the drying problem but the time saved is lost in clean up. So I think the simple answer is large volume.


So maybe this has to be looked at in a more 'system' way? (Like Rick seems to be doing.) Like maybe a faster drying mud. (Like Rick is maybe working on as well?)

Or aren't you including doing flats and butt coating with the cfs system, because of the coaters not working well? Just doing the taping and corners with it?
Did you look at buying or getting a set of boxes set up that could run well enough off the cfs?

I asked awhile ago if anyone had tried 2buck's boxing system with their cfs, or if they thought it could be done well enough (box once, wait about 20 minutes for most of the shrinkage to happen, then box again). With a regular boxing setup, that leaves a 1st coat that doesn't need much for a finish coat (which could be done with a std. box setup, if wanted).


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## gazman

The Apla-zooka is a great tool. Here in Au most homes only have vertical angles. ( we use cornice ) So I can tape a house with a banjo quicker than a Apla-zooka WHEN YOU TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE SETUP AND CLEANUP TIME. I did think about the boxes on the Aplatech but thought that it was probably sending good money after bad. Once again if you had the meters infront of you that would change things big time. Most of my work are homes around 750m2 (around 8000 sq feet) so I simply dont have the meters to make it worthwhile. I am not even using it for corners because of setup & cleanup.


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## 2buckcanuck

JustMe said:


> So maybe this has to be looked at in a more 'system' way? (Like Rick seems to be doing.) Like maybe a faster drying mud. (Like Rick is maybe working on as well?)
> 
> Or aren't you including doing flats and butt coating with the cfs system, because of the coaters not working well? Just doing the taping and corners with it?
> Did you look at buying or getting a set of boxes set up that could run well enough off the cfs?
> 
> I asked awhile ago if anyone had tried 2buck's boxing system with their cfs, or if they thought it could be done well enough (box once, wait about 20 minutes for most of the shrinkage to happen, then box again). With a regular boxing setup, that leaves a 1st coat that doesn't need much for a finish coat (which could be done with a std. box setup, if wanted).


I agree with gazmen and chris

Some will argue with a small job, that a hand taper can get most of his tapes on by the time a machine guy got out all his tools set up. On a larger job a machine will blast by a hand taper. So how big does the job got to be now, for the cfs to blow by the machine taper. There is that thing called drying time.

Even still, I have been on alot of large jobs, I have seen a lot of guys hang them selves by biting off more than they can chew. Easy to step in a building and blast of 20,000...... 30,000 sq ft with a zookie in one day, sanding a checking it in one day is not easy to do, and leave a perfect job:yes:


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## JustMe

gazman said:


> WHEN YOU TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE SETUP AND CLEANUP TIME.


:thumbsup:

I've been following a bit over the last couple weeks a couple of our 'speed' tapers - fixing what their speeding through some things helped create (today it was 1/2 the day fixing bulkheads, which started with bead not put on all that well in places by one taper, and then not 1st coated all that well by another - followed by some 1st coat sanding by someone, that went a little too far). In the end, I'm thinking their speed may be costing us time. Or it's coming very close to it.


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## rhardman

Moved my post to the other thread. This is the Dr's playground...:thumbsup:


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## JustMe

2buckcanuck said:


> I agree with gazmen and chris
> 
> Some will argue with a small job, that a hand taper can get most of his tapes on by the time a machine guy got out all his tools set up. On a larger job a machine will blast by a hand taper. So how big does the job got to be now, for the cfs to blow by the machine taper. There is that thing called drying time.
> 
> Even still, I have been on alot of large jobs, I have seen a lot of guys hang them selves by biting off more than they can chew. Easy to step in a building and blast of 20,000...... 30,000 sq ft with a zookie in one day, sanding a checking it in one day is not easy to do, and leave a perfect job:yes:


I agree (at this time) as well with gazman and chris.

Some of my questions and comments may seem a little naive. Most are about things I've already come to think and believe but like getting feedback on at times, just to see if there might be something else to it to consider; and some are things I'd like to make sure others will maybe think about. And then some (probably) are truly naive.

Tools - good tools - have to integrate well into the actual work conditions out there. It's one reason why I've pretty much stayed focused on taping the last long while, when I could've been making easier and better money elsewhere. I don't want to lose touch with 'what is', while I play with making some of my own systems for this kind of work (which won't be along the lines of Rick's, from what I'm understanding his to be. Mine should - hopefully - fill other gaps in the work place. Whether they really will be of any real value when systems such as Rick's comes out, who knows. But I have fun designing/building such things, anyway.) Today I might be making a deal with a drywall contractor to get more involved in house finishing type work, to go along with my mostly commercial work. That should give me better feedback and a test area for that kind of finishing.


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## TheToolDr

*Comparisons*



rhardman said:


> I want to be absolutely respectful... _but I do have a question._
> 
> Specifically, item by item...
> 
> Why (in your opinion) is the Ames system better than Apla Tech?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


 I have been aware of the Apla-Tech system for many years. I do know a couple individuals who really like the system- and MANY who have put the unit in a closet to collect dust.
The difference is the amount of user input to control the systems. 
With the Apla-Tech, the mud flow is controlled mannually and separately from the rest of the operation. One more thing to think about, which has been the biggest negative I've heard regarding A-T system.
On the other hand, the Ames Bazooka Continuous Flow System has a radio controlled signal unit that eliminates that unnecessary extra step of user input.
At earliest demonstrations, there was skepticism about two things:
1) On my first demos, the question was "How complicated is the system to use?" I showed how the system worked and handed it over to a general superintendent who commented, "Wow, this is pretty easy!" He handed the system to one of his foremen whose comment was similar. They decided to push it a bit further and called over an apprentice who had been on the job less than a month. The apprentice (although not as smooth as the seasoned professionals) was also able to go right to work and accomplish acceptable finish very quickly.
2) Setup time vs. conventional tools. As I was setting up the system on a third demo, several were joking about how much work they could accomplish while I was setting up. In actuality, the main difference was that their mud was already mixed and I was mixing 20 gallons. As I was mixing, they went to work with their bucket of mud and I observed how much board they could cover between fillups. Very quickly I was able to go to work and was a room ahead of the other crew in a few short minutes. I was applying mud while they were going back and forth to the pump.
I'll be the first to qualify the need (or lack therof) for this system. It is designed for large projects, whether it is a hotel, office complex, airport terminal, school, etc. It's all about choosing the right equipment for the task at hand.


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## rhardman

JustMe said:


> I agree (at this time) as well with gazman and chris.
> 
> Some of my questions and comments may seem a little naive. Most are about things I've already come to think and believe but like getting feedback on at times, just to see if there might be something else to it to consider; and some are things I'd like to make sure others will maybe think about. And then some (probably) are truly naive.
> 
> Tools - good tools - have to integrate well into the actual work conditions out there. It's one reason why I've pretty much stayed focused on taping the last long while, when I could've been making easier and better money elsewhere. I don't want to lose touch with 'what is', while I play with making some of my own systems for this kind of work (which won't be along the lines of Rick's, from what I'm understanding his to be. Mine should - hopefully - fill other gaps in the work place. Whether they really will be of any real value when systems such as Rick's comes out, who knows. But I have fun designing/building such things, anyway.) Today I might be making a deal with a drywall contractor to get more involved in house finishing type work, to go along with my mostly commercial work. That should give me better feedback and a test area for that kind of finishing.


I'm of the belief that nobody really know's anything until their products hit the street. Until then, it's a total crap shoot. We do what we think will work but there are certainly no guarantees.

Didn't Apple start out of a garage? 

Justme's "garage"....my "garage" or somebody elses "garage".... New ideas will always be coming out. :thumbup: And in that scenario, the contractor will win. The biggest threat is a monopoly that is focused only on profit. Several years ago I sent an inquiry to Tape Tech telling them I had a new kind of creaser wheel. They never responded.


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## JustMe

rhardman said:


> I'm of the belief that nobody really know's anything until their products hit the street. Until then, it's a total crap shoot. We do what we think will work but there are certainly no guarantees.


That is, or was, how the Japanese approached things. Don't let boardrooms and focus groups and ...... decide things for you so much, but put it out there and see what happens.



rhardman said:


> Didn't Apple start out of a garage?
> 
> Justme's "garage"....my "garage" or somebody elses "garage".... New ideas will always be coming out. :thumbup:


And Dell started in a dorm room. And my (once) beloved Harley Davidson started in a shack (using I think a tomato can for a 1st carburetor).

Then there's the outstanding new idea failures - outstanding because of the size of the projects, brought into being by people in huge companies who didn't read things right (&/or didn't implement them right. &/or their focus was more on what something could do for them, rather than what it might do for their company and customers. And fair enough. I won't judge them too harshly. It seems self-interest is part of human nature.)

I believe it was (maybe) Lee Iacocca who once wanted to get his car mfg. execs out of their heated garages and chauffeur driven vehicles and put them behind the wheels of what it was they were trying to sell. Then they'd maybe better know what it was they should've really been offering, was his thinking. (I wonder how many product development engineers and marketing people and the like are Really getting into the mud, to see what it's Really like. I wonder if it might really help if they did. Maybe, maybe not(?) Takes a certain type to still be able to extract something new and really useful from experience, I'm thinking. But maybe it could help with their assessments of new ideas(?))



rhardman said:


> Justme's "garage"....my "garage" or somebody elses "garage".... New ideas will always be coming out. :thumbup: And in that scenario, the contractor will win.


I've commented before that to me, new ideas can be a double edged sword to such as contractors. If you get ideas that can help a contractor do, say, 20% more work - but the amount of work available doesn't change, or the number of contractors available to do it doesn't change - then you can get price cutting at some point.

But as I also said, a person not buying what's new isn't going to stop it from happening, if what's new makes sense. Maybe better to get on to something good early on and get it paid for, as well as make the extra $ while you can, before the rest of the industry catches on/catches up and you end up back to being just base line competitive.

So I'm thinking that those contractors who get onto good new things early on could be the winners - among contractors.



rhardman said:


> The biggest threat is a monopoly that is focused only on profit.


This is where I might get more into designing/building some of my own tools. If the monopoly keeps the competition's potential ability to perform 'suppressed' in some ways, then well enough thought out custom tools could make me some good money.

Anyway, just thoughts, many which you probably already know about. How really right they all are........


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## P.A. ROCKER

JustMe said:


> Thanks, P.A.
> 
> This is where confusion reigns for me a bit. If it's so much faster, why are guys cursing their cfs systems, and letting them collect dust in their garages. Could it be that you just have an above ordinary knack for running tools, even ones that aren't that co-operative? &/or a # of your types of jobs and job sizes made cfs tools make more sense than their jobs and job sizes did?
> 
> A new hire was telling me the other week about how his dad had over time come to throwing all his Apla cfs attachments across rooms in the new houses they were doing - except for the angle coaters.


 I'm surely not the most experienced with the cfs only ran about 5000 sheets. I agree with Cazna the Apla coaters are junk, that is if you compare to the results of a box. Running angle heads showed no issues what so ever. The job was done over the winter so drying too fast wasn't an issue.We ran upwards of 800 sheets at a shot, kept the system loaded onsite over night so there wasn't much clean up. I made all sorts of adjustments in pressure , flow rates and head blades to try to get an acceptable coat but couldent. Realizing its limited capabilities we hand worked the coat over and returned the excess mud back to pump.
I'd never think of using it on residintal projects. I don't believe it's worth getting dirty for jobs less than 400-500 sheets. We made the best of it. The savings in labor costs on that one job was enough to cover the expense of system according to the drywall contractor.
One other thing.... Mud that has been pumped under the high pressure (1600-2000 PSI) performs much different than out of the bucket.Thats something else to deal with.


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## JustMe

P.A. ROCKER said:


> One other thing.... Mud that has been pumped under the high pressure (1600-2000 PSI) performs much different than out of the bucket.Thats something else to deal with.


Interesting. Only thing that's coming to mind right now is something Rick had once mentioned about texture spraying and Marshalltown's Enforcer unit - any compressed air in the unit can expand once it gets to where it's under less pressure in the line feeding out. Is this what you're meaning - that you end up with more air bubble issues in the mud? Or something else?


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## TapeTech

rhardman said:


> I'm of the belief that nobody really know's anything until their products hit the street. Until then, it's a total crap shoot. We do what we think will work but there are certainly no guarantees.
> 
> Didn't Apple start out of a garage?
> 
> Justme's "garage"....my "garage" or somebody elses "garage".... New ideas will always be coming out. :thumbup: And in that scenario, the contractor will win. The biggest threat is a monopoly that is focused only on profit. Several years ago I sent an inquiry to Tape Tech telling them I had a new kind of creaser wheel. They never responded.


It's certainly tough to erase bad memories but things can absolutely change. Companies are made up of people and sometimes assume the culture of the people within. In the best case, this provides the energy and enthusiasm to be great. In the worst case, well, you know where that's going....

As the relatively new guy responsible for the TapeTech brand, it is certainly less than pleasant (politically correct statement) to read the numerous comments about a lack of response from TapeTech in the past.

Talk is cheap so I will not make any grandiose promises here. I'll simply assert that this may not be the TapeTech you remember. The only way to prove that is through performance but the only way for that to happen is for professionals, like you, to challenge us with the opportunity. So, if you have a great idea (like a new creaser wheel), drop us a note at [email protected]. I assure you that you will be contacted.

Thanks and Good Finishing!


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## rhardman

It will be fun to watch.

Best of luck to your new team. With the new approach I'm sure you will be more successful than in the past. 

(Thank you for mentioning the creaser. We're going a different direction these days. )


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## P.A. ROCKER

JustMe said:


> Interesting. Only thing that's coming to mind right now is something Rick had once mentioned about texture spraying and Marshalltown's Enforcer unit - any compressed air in the unit can expand once it gets to where it's under less pressure in the line feeding out. Is this what you're meaning - that you end up with more air bubble issues in the mud? Or something else?


 No bubble problem, It just made the mud handle different in a way thats hard to discribe. We used USG midweight and it totally changed its handling characteristics after it was pumped. It was like different mud or something.


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## rhardman

P.A. ROCKER said:


> No bubble problem, It just made the mud handle different in a way thats hard to discribe. We used USG midweight and it totally changed its handling characteristics after it was pumped. It was like different mud or something.


 
"Fluffy?" Seem a little difficult to stick and spread?


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## P.A. ROCKER

rhardman said:


> "Fluffy?" Seem a little difficult to stick and spread?


Heavy, difficult to feather and spread.


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## rhardman

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Heavy, difficult to feather and spread.


I wouldn't have expected "heavy." That is weird. 

Thanks P.A.:thumbsup:


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## JustMe

rhardman said:


> I wouldn't have expected "heavy." That is weird.


"Heavy" - Reminds me of making bricks, using pressure.

I wonder how many other Apla Tech users here found the mud to be heavy seeming. Or your 'Fluffy' thought.

I wonder how the new Ames cfs system, with its new pump, might affect the mud. Makes it 'heavy'? Or ......?


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## rhardman

I went way off on a tangent here so I moved the comments to the other thread.

It looks like the perlite in the USG mud may be compacting under high pressure to leave the situation P.A. was describing.


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## D's

I've noticed if I use my mark v to empty my hopper into a bucket say when switching from taping to finishing mud, after a couple of hours it takes on a more foamy texture. I guess it would be that phenomenon at work. Doesn't cause problems but any entrained air/pocks would get compressed and distributed, then expand again once brought back to atmospheric pressure.


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## TapeTech

rhardman said:


> I went way off on a tangent here so I moved the comments to the other thread.
> 
> It looks like the perlite in the USG mud may be compacting under high pressure to leave the situation P.A. was describing.


It's great when it gets scientific! :thumbsup:

I have reached out to our colleagues at Graco to get some expert input regarding various pumping methods and their effect on different types of joint compound, especially the Bazooka CFS as that was the origin of this thread.

I'll post the results when I receive them.

Good Finishing!


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## Goodmanatee

I shall be getting a cfs system this year. Get job bigs enough and regular enough to warrant one. And this is a good thread. Very imformative. Good to get some talk from people who use them. And what the issuses they're had with them. Would like to know what the boxes work like. P.A. rocker liked the way it did angles so, jobs a good'n for the angles.
Sorry tapetech i know this is your thread but i seem to be leaning more towards alpa for a couple of reasons. Price and don't know if your going to sell in the U.K. and if you are who would you use as your distrubtor?


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## TapeTech

Goodmanatee said:


> I shall be getting a cfs system this year. Get job bigs enough and regular enough to warrant one. And this is a good thread. Very imformative. Good to get some talk from people who use them. And what the issuses they're had with them. Would like to know what the boxes work like. P.A. rocker liked the way it did angles so, jobs a good'n for the angles.
> Sorry tapetech i know this is your thread but i seem to be leaning more towards alpa for a couple of reasons. Price and don't know if your going to sell in the U.K. and if you are who would you use as your distrubtor?


I always believe the final purchasing decision is up to the user; he alone can decide which product best matches his needs. Naturally, we believe that the new Bazooka Continuous Flow System has many innovative features and benefits and is the first system to truly be fully designed and integrated to finish drywall. I'm happy to supply other information offline as it's not appropriate to use the forum as a "sales floor".

Regarding distribution in UK, we have a number of dealers in the UK who all have access to the system. Belmore Tools, Walls & Ceilings and Drylining Supplies could each assist you. As you saw at the top of this post from the Tool Doctor, we do have an aggressive sale in place right now for the CFS system so perhaps price would be less of an issue.

Again, I'm more than happy to supply information offline if you would like. What's most important is to match the tool to the user and the application. Sometimes that means recommending another product if it's a better match for the customer's situation. Either way, we're here to help.

If you would like to chat offline, please send me a PM.

Thanks.


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## rhardman

*If I might butt in for a moment....*



TapeTech said:


> I always believe the final purchasing decision is up to the user; he alone can decide which product best matches his needs. Naturally, we believe that the new Bazooka Continuous Flow System has many innovative features and benefits and is the first system to truly be fully designed and integrated to finish drywall. I'm happy to supply other information offline as it's not appropriate to use the forum as a "sales floor".
> 
> Regarding distribution in UK, we have a number of dealers in the UK who all have access to the system. Belmore Tools, Walls & Ceilings and Drylining Supplies could each assist you. As you saw at the top of this post from the Tool Doctor, we do have an aggressive sale in place right now for the CFS system so perhaps price would be less of an issue.
> 
> Again, I'm more than happy to supply information offline if you would like. What's most important is to match the tool to the user and the application. Sometimes that means recommending another product if it's a better match for the customer's situation. Either way, we're here to help.
> 
> If you would like to chat offline, please send me a PM.
> 
> Thanks.


That was very well done and good reason all the mfrs should be on DWT. Apla Tech watches the site but won't jump in.

That may cost someone an order.....:whistling2:

(...and to be honest....I'm getting a "class" education from our Tape Tech advocate here. Lord know's I can use some help in that area!)


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## Bazooka-Joe

rhardman said:


> I'm of the belief that nobody really know's anything until their products hit the street. Until then, it's a total crap shoot. We do what we think will work but there are certainly no guarantees.
> 
> Didn't Apple start out of a garage?
> 
> Justme's "garage"....my "garage" or somebody elses "garage".... New ideas will always be coming out. :thumbup: And in that scenario, the contractor will win. The biggest threat is a monopoly that is focused only on profit. Several years ago I sent an inquiry to Tape Tech telling them I had a new kind of creaser wheel. They never responded.




I am Impressed that Tape Tech would not be involved in your wheel idea, as it is yours, although I think they should email you and respond, 

I had a Garage idea, built the baby and ran like lightning, can't see going Public though, as said it will get down to the wire on prices if every crew had one, then we foot the bill for repairs on the unit,

The crap shoot is sad just like how I don't think apla-tech is worth 2 Pesos, maybe 3 Pesos and watching them sell Poles with air attachments for sick cash, then this **** weld Pole handle with a ****ty bike cable on it, the thousand dollar wash station, the virtually indestructible ****ty Canon(feels like your holding a canon alright) tubes, when PCV tubes handle 75 PSI and with that junker you only need maybe 30 PSI, needless to say I would be Pissed if some guy saying we are tapers too come along and try to sell me that unit, never mind the flow valve at the Hardware store for $40 bucks and their inflated price for the same thing


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## D's

Do any of your posts end without ****ting on Apla-tech?:whistling2:


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## TapeTech

TapeTech said:


> It's great when it gets scientific! :thumbsup:
> 
> I have reached out to our colleagues at Graco to get some expert input regarding various pumping methods and their effect on different types of joint compound, especially the Bazooka CFS as that was the origin of this thread.
> 
> I'll post the results when I receive them.
> 
> Good Finishing!


Just a quick update on this topic....

We're still working with Graco to get some technical information regarding the effect of various types of pumps on different types of compound.

I'll post again as soon as we hear something.

Good Finishing!


----------



## ukdrywall

can you also find out if you can spray primer or sealer coat with it as well

thanks


----------



## rhardman

Fair enough...but I have to ask, are you using the system for just texturing with powdered mud or are you using the Apla Tech system for taping and finishing using premixed every time? I'm a little confused...your description sounds like you are only texturing which is a whole different ball game (I say respectfully of course :yes. Finishing mud is thicker and thus more susceptible to compaction since the particulates are closer together.

Either way, it still goes back to the theory that high pressure might cause different reactions when used with different brands of mud. P.A. said he used USG midweight. 

One thing for sure, that high speed cycling of the pump is sure going to mix it up. The mud travels up that first check valve, into the chamber, through another check valve and very tight passages before it hits the hose where the mass of pressure is applied. So...you get that creamy mud in the first section of the pump and compaction in the second tube section and the hose. Maybe sitting for a period of time in the hose would enhance the "heavier" effect. Maybe a longer hose would add more material to compact under pressure....?









P.A. What length of hose were you using? Did it sit under pressure for any period of time? Did you use the Mark IV or V?


I look forward to Mike's report from Graco too.

It's an excellent question!


----------



## JustMe

Cormac said:


> I recently saw the CFS run and was impressed. ............. Interestingly, (funny/odd) I find it much easier to feather and spread.


Trying to get a read on your experience with it: Did you recently only see it run, as you said, or did you actually run it?



rhardman said:


> One thing for sure, that high speed cycling of the pump is sure going to mix it up. The mud travels up that first check valve, into the chamber, through another check valve and very tight passages before it hits the hose where the mass of pressure is applied. So...you get that creamy mud in the first section of the pump and compaction in the second tube section and the hose. Maybe sitting for a period of time in the hose would enhance the "heavier" effect. Maybe a longer hose would add more material to compact under pressure....?
> 
> View attachment 2054
> 
> 
> P.A. What length of hose were you using? Did it sit under pressure for any period of time? Did you use the Mark IV or V?


I'm thinking the drag and probable turbulence created by the hose's inner walls on the mud could cause a lot of mixing, and a lot of resistance (resulting in compaction). I wonder how much effect hose size, type of hose used, hose length, ..... could have on something like mud (I'm more familiar with pumping fluids that aren't so thick).


----------



## TheToolDr

*Seeing is believing*

For qualified, potentially interested contractors regarding the Bazooka Continuous Flow System, physical demonstrations are being organized to allow you to see for yourself. Time to stop talking' and start muddin'. 
To be included on early invitation list, contact [email protected] or call direct toll-free (866) 305-3233, xt 107
http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/Continuous-Flow-Taping-Tools/


----------



## rhardman

.......I think the Dr. missed the point of our discussion.


----------



## rhardman

*The point is...do some materials leave a better finish than others when used with CFS*



JustMe said:


> I'm thinking the drag and probable turbulence created by the hose's inner walls on the mud could cause a lot of mixing, and a lot of resistance (resulting in compaction). I wonder how much effect hose size, type of hose used, hose length, ..... could have on something like mud (I'm more familiar with pumping fluids that aren't so thick).


Ahhhhh you're a sharp one! The testing I did in the 90's showed interior drag on the lining of the hose was the main reason needed for the higher pressures. Mud in a larger diameter (especially thicker mud) acts like cholesterol in an artery with the outer area slowing down as the center of the fluid tends to pass by it more easily. With the paint hoses being so small, the ultra high pressures are need to "punch" the material down the hose. With thinner mud and larger diameters, the turbulence you mentioned is much more dramatic. 

Though this is for water, and the coefficient of friction would be much higher for mud against the wall of the hose, the chart shows the basic priniciple (even at .5-3 gpm). Using a 1/4 inch paint hose to push mud has got to be way more than double (maybe triple) the highest numbers shown (too lazy to do the math FL = CQ2L*...Justme...the 2 indicates squared...._figuring you are the only person on the site who might care...._:thumbup

The higher friction means much more pressure (exponentially) needed to push the mud through the paint hose. Before Apla's CFS, texturing was the only place hoses were used. They were (and are) much larger...lower pressure...so no effect on the mud was never noticed because if there was compaction, it was minimal.










:blink:
*Where FL = friction loss (expressed in psi) C = coefficient of friction (based on the inside diameter of the hose and the inside jacket material) Q = flow rate in hundreds of gallons (gpm/100) L = Length of hose in hundreds of feet (L/100)


_I need to get a life...._:yawn:


----------



## TheToolDr

rhardman said:


> .......I think the Dr. missed the point of our discussion.


Guess I interrupted my own discussion. 
Just saying' in the midst of it all if anyone wants to see the system in action, let me know.
By all means, carry on...


----------



## rhardman

TheToolDr said:


> Guess I interrupted my own discussion.
> Just saying' in the midst of it all if anyone wants to see the system in action, let me know.
> By all means, carry on...


And to your point...if I might be able to repeat one very important fact I think is relevant to the topic of coefficient of friction within a flexible hose, condensation of various compounds and pumping pressures...



rhardman said:


> _I need to get a life...._:yawn:


 
Mike called me yesterday and we had a great conversation regarding Ames, TT and the challenges he is facing creating a new image. The man is a gentleman and is the perfect person for the challenge. Earlier in the week I had some interaction with All-Wall. The topics were totally unrelated but I did walk away with the understanding that both companies are trying to build a bridge to the contractor.

Sorry if I had an edge. It was the phrase, _Stop talking and start "mudding"_ I took exception to.

The guy's don't "mud" and they don't spend their days "mudding." They are professional drywall finishers and deserve the respect of people that have devoted their lives to their trade.*_ Mike and I talked about that too._

If you find someone that say's he's a "mudder" I doubt his quality is as good as it could be.

The comment did nothing to lift the impression of the industry or the worker_. If a sales guy is smart, at every opportunity he'll do whatever he can to improve the reputation and prestige of his business partner._

_(...with sincere respect. :thumbsup: )_

_*If you think I'm being over sensitive...you might be right....but I'm one of those guys and I doubt you know what it feels like to have bills piling up, thinking about them every single minute of he day and then go outside to wash buckets and have a guy in a suit look down his nose at you. These guys are business owners living the risks and rewards (few rewards these days) of an entrepreneur doing their best to put shoes on their kids feet. _

_Each one has an "edge" that makes the idea of having to deal with office politics on a daily basis just a little bit disgusting. _


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

D's said:


> Do any of your posts end without ****ting on Apla-tech?:whistling2:



how's this Sh$t


----------



## TheToolDr

rhardman said:


> And to your point...if I might be able to repeat one very important fact I think is relevant....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike called me yesterday and we had a great conversation regarding Ames, TT and the challenges he is facing creating a new image. The man is a gentleman and is the perfect person for the challenge. Earlier in the week I had some interaction with All-Wall. The topics were totally unrelated but I did walk away with the understanding that both companies are trying to build a bridge to the contractor.
> 
> Sorry if I had an edge. It was the phrase, _Stop talking and start "mudding"_ I took exception to.
> 
> The guy's don't "mud" and they don't spend their days "mudding." They are professional drywall finishers and deserve the respect of people that have devoted their lives to their trade.*_ Mike and I talked about that too._
> 
> If you find someone that say's he's a "mudder" I doubt his quality is as good as it could be.
> 
> The comment did nothing to lift the impression of the industry or the worker_. If a sales guy is smart, at every opportunity he'll do whatever he can to increase the reputation and prestige of his business partner._
> 
> _(...with sincere respect. :thumbsup: )_
> 
> _*If you think I'm being over sensitive...you might be right....but I'm one of those guys and I doubt you know what it feels like to have bills piling up, thinking about them every single minute of he day and then go outside to wash buckets and have a guy in a suit look down his nose at you. These guys are business owners living the risks and rewards (few rewards these days) of an entrepreneur doing their best to put shoes on their kids feet. Each one has an "edge" that makes the idea of working for someone else just a little bit disgusting. _


No disrespect intended. During a solid 28 year career in drywall finishing, I concentrated on exclusive upper end custom homes and office complexes. I enjoyed "muddin'" and hold it in absolutely the highest regard and is simply a descriptive term. Feel free to substitute "high caliber drywall finishing professional" or whatever suits.
I remember one time I was in a situation of great financial challenge (working two jobs to try to keep the ends together and feed 3 young children) and an arrogant realtor in a fancy suit walked in and started talking down his nose to me with an air of superiority. I just looked back at him and said "doesn't appear either of us is standing on a ladder or in a hole, so why don't we just keep this conversation eye-to-eye." What my muddy clothes didn't tell him was that I had an active real estate license which I pursued on weekends. Once we got to discussing comps, listing percentages, and different geographical markets, it became apparent I was much more educated than he was. The conversation faded quickly.
I called myself a "mudder" with pride and use the term with the highest possible respect.


----------



## rhardman

TheToolDr said:


> No disrespect intended. During a solid 28 year career in drywall finishing, I concentrated on exclusive upper end custom homes and office complexes. I enjoyed "muddin'" and hold it in absolutely the highest regard and is simply a descriptive term. Feel free to substitute "high caliber drywall finishing professional" or whatever suits.
> I remember one time I was in a situation of great financial challenge (working two jobs to try to keep the ends together and feed 3 young children) and an arrogant realtor in a fancy suit walked in and started talking down his nose to me with an air of superiority. I just looked back at him and said "doesn't appear either of us is standing on a ladder or in a hole, so why don't we just keep this conversation eye-to-eye." What my muddy clothes didn't tell him was that I had an active real estate license which I pursued on weekends. Once we got to discussing comps, listing percentages, and different geographical markets, it became apparent I was much more educated than he was. The conversation faded quickly.
> I called myself a "mudder" with pride and use the term with the highest possible respect.


 
We've talked on the phone and you're a good guy.

I guess anytime I encounter something that can be interpreted as disrespectful of a drywall contractor I go off the deep end...

It's because of the memory of a drywall person I care for that did not turn out very well.

Sorry for the rant...forgot I was talking to a brother there....


----------



## P.A. ROCKER

> P.A. What length of hose were you using? Did it sit under pressure for any period of time? Did you use the Mark IV or V?


It's been a few years but I think we used 100' of hose. I think 1/4 I.D. We didn't leave the system under pressure when not in use. We did leave the line charged with mud. We used a Grayco Mark V. It had a digital pressure gauge.
The mud didn't necessarly weigh more but it seemed heavier to move with a knife. It was harder to work in my experience as well as my workmates. 
I'm not knocking the aplatec cfs, I think its great for high volume production, but there's a learning curve to deal with. I'd gladly use it again in the right situation. The production was unmatched.


----------



## rhardman

P.A. ROCKER said:


> It's been a few years but I think we used 100' of hose. I think 1/4 I.D. We didn't leave the system under pressure when not in use. We did leave the line charged with mud. We used a Grayco Mark V. It had a digital pressure gauge.
> The mud didn't necessarly weigh more but it seemed heavier to move with a knife. It was harder to work in my experience as well as my workmates.
> I'm not knocking the aplatec cfs, I think its great for high volume production, but there's a learning curve to deal with. I'd gladly use it again in the right situation. The production was unmatched.


And, I don't mean anything negative at all toward Apla or Ames. They are fantastic systems for the right situation. That heavier handling mud is what I find interesting...been up since 4:00 thinking about it. I doubt anyone ever raised the issue before you so I think it brings an additional R&D value to DWT. :thumbsup:


----------



## chris

has anyone that builds these types of tools try a hydraulic pump? Ive read lots of these posts but not all . Maybe I missed a post on it. Continuous mud flow is not all that needed,just a way to fill tools with a flip of a switch or say valve on a box attached to a skinny hose. Like I said I may have missed something


----------



## Kiwiman

chris said:


> has anyone that builds these types of tools try a hydraulic pump? Ive read lots of these posts but not all . Maybe I missed a post on it. Continuous mud flow is not all that needed,just a way to fill tools with a flip of a switch or say valve on a box attached to a skinny hose. Like I said I may have missed something


I have no experience with pumping mud but when you say hydraulic pump it reminds me of an offal rendering plant I once worked in, before I left I had a bit to do with a 2nd plant being built and helped commission it, what they installed was a double piston hydraulic pump, the product was put through a pre hogger which turns the by-products into a thick mince, this pump could push this thick gunk through something like an 8" pipe, 20 - 30ft up, around 90 degree bends and over to another building, when one piston reached the end of it's stroke the other one would kick in.....very slow but hugely powerful.


----------



## rhardman

Great explanation on the mixing in the lower end of the pump. :thumbup: I wasn't concerned with that so I think we're focusing on 2 different things. Your areas of high velocity are also the lowest pressure areas of the pump. 

The upper part of my drawing doesn't represent turbulance, rather the fact that the mud flows out of the second check valve and then collects with itself in the 2nd chamber under high pressure before it is discharged through a 1/4 inch hose. It's a double acting short stroke piston pump so the mud is pounded under 1500-2000 psi on the up and the down stroke in the 2nd chamber. How many times does that pump cycle a minute? 40 I'm guessing...that means the mud is impacted 80 times at high pressure every minute.

I agree that mixing that occurs in the hose is minimal, my theory is that with the high COF, the pressure is concentrating there right along with the mud in the second chamber of the pump.



Cormac said:


> ... If you go to lunch with the system pressurized, the mud may pack out at the guns needle and seat...


Based on P.A.'s experience, thickening ("heavier" was his word) is occuring. You might know that pump better than I do, any idea what would cause the mud to get thicker if it's not compaction?

What brand of mud are you using? Premix or powder?
What diameter hose are you using?

:thumbsup:


----------



## JustMe

rhardman said:


> Ahhhhh you're a sharp one! The testing I did in the 90's showed interior drag on the lining of the hose was the main reason needed for the higher pressures. Mud in a larger diameter (especially thicker mud) acts like cholesterol in an artery with the outer area slowing down as the center of the fluid tends to pass by it more easily. With the paint hoses being so small, the ultra high pressures are need to "punch" the material down the hose. With thinner mud and larger diameters, the turbulence you mentioned is much more dramatic.
> 
> Though this is for water, and the coefficient of friction would be much higher for mud against the wall of the hose, the chart shows the basic priniciple (even at .5-3 gpm). Using a 1/4 inch paint hose to push mud has got to be way more than double (maybe triple) the highest numbers shown (too lazy to do the math FL = CQ2L*...Justme...the 2 indicates squared...._figuring you are the only person on the site who might care...._:thumbup
> 
> The higher friction means much more pressure (exponentially) needed to push the mud through the paint hose. Before Apla's CFS, texturing was the only place hoses were used. They were (and are) much larger...lower pressure...so no effect on the mud was never noticed because if there was compaction, it was minimal.
> 
> View attachment 2057
> 
> 
> 
> :blink:
> *Where FL = friction loss (expressed in psi) C = coefficient of friction (based on the inside diameter of the hose and the inside jacket material) Q = flow rate in hundreds of gallons (gpm/100) L = Length of hose in hundreds of feet (L/100)
> 
> 
> _I need to get a life...._:yawn:


Thanks, Rick. It's just that I've had some experience with long hoses for hydraulics and water. I've had to factor in pressure loss effects when building systems.

Since I haven't gotten my hands on a cfs system yet, I don't know if this might affect things, but just in case:

If you're starting out with say 1,600-2,000 psi at the pump, and are down to say 30-40 psi at the flat box after 100' of hose length, what kind of heat are you generating in the line when you start running the unit harder. Is it enough - or enough at times, depending on the situation (such as building temperature) - to cause any noticeable handling characteristics to the mud, during pumping and once the mud is on the wall? Or does the mud flowing from the container keep temperatures constant enough?
We use pretty much all taping and AP mud only on our larger jobs, as the finishing mud can be a little 'dangerous' when you have a 1/2 dozen or more tapers and someone grabs the wrong mud for taping/beading something, because someone else had previously decided to mix a box of finishing mud in an empty taping coloured pail. I'm wondering how any created heat might affect things like mud glues. (The 2 we use are ProRoc and Synko. ProRoc is Supposed to have more glues in at least the taping mud.)

-----

Add-on: At least Synko is also supposed to increase the amount of vinyl they put in their mud during the summer. It's supposed to help slow down drying time, so mud doesn't set up too quick before you get a chance to work it. At least that's what I read somewhere. Their mud has seemed especially 'gummier' the last while.
I'm not as familiar with ProRoc, so I can't say if its characteristics have changed between winter and summer. Maybe some heavier users of it might know.


----------



## JustMe

Cormac said:


> Justme, as I said I saw the CFS run and have no experience of using it. It was impressive/cool to watch.


Thanks, Cormac. I saw you'd listed yourself as being in sales, and was wondering about your background with cfs systems. Do you by chance sell pumps, like the Graco pumps? Or drywall tools?

---------



TheToolDr said:


> I enjoyed "muddin'" and hold it in absolutely the highest regard and is simply a descriptive term. Feel free to substitute "high caliber drywall finishing professional" or whatever suits.


 As I've told people on occasion, there's mudders, and then there's finishers. I've experienced working with both (working with mudders is one reason why I bought a PC power sander).


----------



## rhardman

Cormac said:


> Here is my experience using high pressure pumped mud with a Mark IV and Mark V:.....Interestingly, (funny/odd) I find it much easier to feather and spread.





Cormac said:


> Justme, as I said I saw the CFS run and have no experience of using it. It was impressive/cool to watch.


Help me out here...I'm confused. Are you pumping into your pan and spreading it by hand if you're not using CFS? You use the word "feather" which isn't used in texturing. Maybe if you spray a heavy coat to skim a wall but even then feathering is always used when blending into a surrounding area.

?


----------



## rhardman

JustMe said:


> Thanks, Rick. It's just that I've had some experience with long hoses for hydraulics and water. I've had to factor in pressure loss effects when building systems.
> 
> Since I haven't gotten my hands on a cfs system yet, I don't know if this might affect things, but just in case:
> 
> If you're starting out with say 1,600-2,000 psi at the pump, and are down to say 30-40 psi at the flat box after 100' of hose length, what kind of heat are you generating in the line when you start running the unit harder. Is it enough - or enough at times, depending on the situation (such as building temperature) - to cause any noticeable handling characteristics to the mud, during pumping and once the mud is on the wall? We use pretty much all taping and AP mud only on our larger jobs, as the finishing mud can be a little 'dangerous' when you have a 1/2 dozen or more tapers and someone grabs the wrong mud for taping/beading something, because someone else had previously decided to mix a box of finishing mud in an empty taping coloured pail. I'm wondering how any created heat might affect things like mud glues. (The 2 we use are ProRoc and Synko. ProRoc is Supposed to have more glues in at least the taping mud.)
> 
> -----
> 
> Add-on: At least Synko is also supposed to increase the amount of vinyl they put in their mud during the summer. It's supposed to help slow down drying time, so mud doesn't set up too quick before you get a chance to work it. At least that's what I read somewhere. Their mud has seemed especially 'gummier' the last while.
> I'm not as familiar with ProRoc, so I can't say if its characteristics have changed between winter and summer. Maybe some heavier users of it might know.


Heat...I hadn't even considered it yet. I'm sure it would have an effect. Even so, the moisture isn't escaping anywhere...

More thoughts...more thoughts...huh, huh, huh?

(I love this stuff!) 

Should we move this to the other thread...I see it as industry R&D and more traffic to the Dr's thread...but it is going outside his original intention...


----------



## JustMe

rhardman said:


> Heat...I hadn't even considered it yet. I'm sure it would have an effect. Even so, the moisture isn't escaping anywhere...
> 
> More thoughts...more thoughts...huh, huh, huh?
> 
> (I love this stuff!)
> 
> Should we move this to the other thread...I see it as industry R&D and more traffic to the Dr's thread...but it is going outside his original intention...
> 
> Dr.?


Moving it would be fine by me, but I don't know how much more I have to say, at least till I'd maybe thought about it some more. I did add to my previous post the following bolded area:



JustMe said:


> Thanks, Rick. It's just that I've had some experience with long hoses for hydraulics and water. I've had to factor in pressure loss effects when building systems.
> 
> Since I haven't gotten my hands on a cfs system yet, I don't know if this might affect things, but just in case:
> 
> If you're starting out with say 1,600-2,000 psi at the pump, and are down to say 30-40 psi at the flat box after 100' of hose length, what kind of heat are you generating in the line when you start running the unit harder. Is it enough - or enough at times, depending on the situation (such as building temperature) - to cause any noticeable handling characteristics to the mud, during pumping and once the mud is on the wall? *Or does the mud flowing from the container keep temperatures constant enough?*
> We use pretty much all taping and AP mud only on our larger jobs, as the finishing mud can be a little 'dangerous' when you have a 1/2 dozen or more tapers and someone grabs the wrong mud for taping/beading something, because someone else had previously decided to mix a box of finishing mud in an empty taping coloured pail. I'm wondering how any created heat might affect things like mud glues. (The 2 we use are ProRoc and Synko. ProRoc is Supposed to have more glues in at least the taping mud.)
> 
> -----
> 
> Add-on: At least Synko is also supposed to increase the amount of vinyl they put in their mud during the summer. It's supposed to help slow down drying time, so mud doesn't set up too quick before you get a chance to work it. At least that's what I read somewhere. Their mud has seemed especially 'gummier' the last while.
> I'm not as familiar with ProRoc, so I can't say if its characteristics have changed between winter and summer. Maybe some heavier users of it might know.


----------



## rhardman

Thinking is always good...D's runs Apla Tech so his feedback could be helpful. I don't know if he's back from vacation yet. 


Dr. would you like us to move the discussion? We are getting a bit far of field and it might be boring for some guys.


----------



## Tim0282

This thread has turned into a very good learning experience for me. You guys have answered some questions on spraying mud for smooth finish that I could not figure out what was going on. Sure glad you guys are brainywacks! Thanks! Not only have you helped me do a better job, but you have sure made me feel inferior!


----------



## P.A. ROCKER

Tim0282 said:


> This thread has turned into a very good learning experience for me. You guys have answered some questions on spraying mud for smooth finish that I could not figure out what was going on. Sure glad you guys are brainywacks! Thanks! Not only have you helped me do a better job, but you have sure made me feel inferior!


I've been following this one too..Will you let us know what problems were solved and what you've worked into you're routine?


----------



## Tim0282

I will be spraying mud with Never/Miss Final Coat on a job in a couple days. I have two coats to put on the job first, then I'll be able to spray. But I better tape a different job tomorrow, so I will be closer to the end of the week. Will let you know how it goes. It is fascinating how spraying mud with an airless seems to change the make up of the mud. Thought it was just me. Good to see others saying the same.


----------



## rhardman

Cormac said:


> rhardman, my primary use has been with USG Green boxed mud. With Mark V's I use 3/8" hose up to 100 - 150 feet depending on what I am doing. Anything more or at 100 - 50 feet I might throw in a 50 foot 1/2 inch length just to make the system "friendly" by reducing frictional losses.
> Over the years, I have used the Mark V's for quickly apply mud to finish joints with a 235 tip, and that is where I would smooth and feather. I have also used the to apply texture finishes like orange peels, splatter, and knockdowns. I prefer Mark V's for smaller droplet texture finishes say pea size and smaller. I have also used the same rig to spray fireproofin and firestops into wall and ceiling seams using 117 -121 tips, more or less spray caulking.
> justme, as I plainly put in my profile I am in sales, so no deception here. I also have no involvement with the CFS as indicated. Regarding selling pumps, I started in NYC as a Pump Applications Engineer in the late 70's. I have specified, used, and sold pumps like Wilden, Viking, Crane, ARO, Graco, Nordson, and a heck of a lot more. Selling various pumps and designed pump systems into an endless aray of marketplaces while pumping everything from maracino cherries (without damage), to drywall mud, to raw sewage, to exotic acids, to dry powders, to water and beyond.
> No heat is generated in that hose from pumping action or frictional losses.
> Finally, I posted on this forum simply because I felt I could add value, have interest, and not to sell something.


Thank you for the great information it really helps us to understand another perspective of using high pressure with mud. Are you working for a pump company right now? You're talking Mark V so I'm wondering if its Graco?


----------



## rhardman

Tim0282 said:


> I will be spraying mud with Never/Miss Final Coat on a job in a couple days. I have two coats to put on the job first, then I'll be able to spray. But I better tape a different job tomorrow, so I will be closer to the end of the week. Will let you know how it goes. It is fascinating how spraying mud with an airless seems to change the make up of the mud. Thought it was just me. Good to see others saying the same.


Okay, so it appears that there is something going on with pumping high pressure mud then. Cormac is using 1/2" & 3/8" hose and P.A. was using 1/4.



Cormac said:


> No heat is generated in that hose from pumping action or frictional losses.


I disagree with Cormac that "no" heating or frictional issue is occuring because it is a scienfic fact that pumping water will result in a a rise in temperature. Even with a constant flow of cool water behind it, at the microscopic point of contact, there is a frictional effect. What's probably the case here is that with 3/8" or 1/2" hose, there is not enough friction to notice any temperature rise just by touching the hose. Maybe there isn't enough to even matter. But with the high number of particulates per cubic inch of material...the more it cycles...as stated by the packing that occurs at the tip, something is happening.

The tip packing has to be caused by pressure (forcing the water out the tip) while the coarser solids won't pass the tight tolerances. That's easy to figure out.

But if that's the case, I still think there is strong evidence for the mud consolidating. It's proven in the tip...the only question is...what happens to the moisture in the mud if it can't escape? Does that prevent the possibility of compacting?

This is getting far afield from the Drs. original intention and my over active enthusiasm has already interferred with him promoting Mike's new PR approach, Tape Tech and the Ames CFS System.

Don't mean to be disrepectful...so if nobody minds I'll move over to the other thread. 
:thumbsup:


----------



## prodrywall

The reason for switching between hose sizes is due to desired flow rates, not any type of "heat". Pressure and Flow go hand in hand. Increase pressure and you reduce flow. Small hoses and long hose lengths require increased pressure and reduce flow. Make the hoses bigger, you reduce the pressure required, and thus increase flow. Sure that is why Cormac is using bigger hose in some hose sections.

Not sure why all the fuss about heat. Fire up your sprayer and run mud from the pump to the gun and measure temperature. I guarantee you will not be able to see a noticeable difference (I wished the mud would heat, then I could dry the stuff faster!). What happens to the mud has more to do with the air entrapped within it than anything. When mud is put under pressure, the air within the mix is compressed. Upon release from the pump, the air re-expands. Per Cormac's prior post, the air is redistributed throughout the mix during the re-expansion and the mix becomes smoother. 

Another point to consider is the mud you are using. A lightweight mud has alot of air, as opposed to an All-Purpose mud which is heavy and has less air. If you pump lightweight mud, a pump becomes less efficient due to the air compressing, whereas an All-Purpose type of mud will pump more efficiently (more liquid per gallon). Flow rates between the types can be very dramatic - sometimes double.

Have never heard of "mud quality" issues in regards to continuous finishing systems or Level 5 spray application.


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## rhardman

The issue was solved without going into heat or compaction. It's a fact with a gypsum base compound and agitation. The links are on the other thread.

The general agreement is the greatest variable in results are because of the mud. Spraying isn't an issue because of the high water content. We are interested for the taping/finishing application.



prodrywall said:


> Tave never heard of "mud quality" issues in regards to continuous finishing systems or Level 5 spray application.


I hadn't either until P.A. mentioned it. Up to now people haven't been able to compare experiences on a broad scale.

:thumbsup:

(...back to you ToolDr!:thumbup


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## Capt-sheetrock

I spray alot of paint. (yes I'm a closet painter)

I have noticed that the mud that is run through an airless (AT hooked to a Graco Mark IV) is real shiney, like looking at semi-gloss sprayed, rather than looking at flat sprayed on walls. I have also noticed that it does not shrink back much, like mud that is run through boxes or a pan does. Wouldn't hurt to check that out Rick, if I'm right about that observation, it would be a great selling point for your rig.

But then again, I drink alot of beer.:yes:


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## warrenjo

can the apla-tech pump fill old-school tubes?


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## gazman

The CFS wont. But I cant see why the Apla pump cant. But I guess the real question is why bother?


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## TapeTech

gazman said:


> The CFS wont. But I cant see why the Apla pump cant. But I guess the real question is why bother?


The Bazooka Continuous Flow pump *can* be used to fill standard taping and finishing tools if you have the CTFILL Tool Fill Kit. This makes the overall jobsite even more productive as you may have some workers using traditional tools in other rooms.

http://www.tapetech.com/products/Continuous-Flow-System

http://www.tapetech.com/products/Co...and-Accessories/Continuous-Flow-Tool-Fill-Kit


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## warrenjo

Just trying to find something cost effective to save the old shoulder on the bigger commercial jobs.The murum corp., now defunct, put out a tall boy 5 gal. bucket pump that worked off hydraulics and an air compressor but they cant be found anymore, or parts for them.There's a new company that puts out an air compressor assisted tex. rig with hopper that has the attachments ....extra of coarse, that's in the $1800 range.For a guy thats not ready to spend all that cash on cfs yet,just like to get some help here on what might be the best option.


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## gazman

TapeTech said:


> The Bazooka Continuous Flow pump *can* be used to fill standard taping and finishing tools if you have the CTFILL Tool Fill Kit. This makes the overall jobsite even more productive as you may have some workers using traditional tools in other rooms.
> 
> http://www.tapetech.com/products/Continuous-Flow-System
> 
> http://www.tapetech.com/products/Co...and-Accessories/Continuous-Flow-Tool-Fill-Kit



Hi mike. He was asking about thr Apla Tech version.


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## Scott_w

TapeTech said:


> It's certainly tough to erase bad memories but things can absolutely change. Companies are made up of people and sometimes assume the culture of the people within. In the best case, this provides the energy and enthusiasm to be great. In the worst case, well, you know where that's going....
> 
> As the relatively new guy responsible for the TapeTech brand, it is certainly less than pleasant (politically correct statement) to read the numerous comments about a lack of response from TapeTech in the past.
> 
> Talk is cheap so I will not make any grandiose promises here. I'll simply assert that this may not be the TapeTech you remember. The only way to prove that is through performance but the only way for that to happen is for professionals, like you, to challenge us with the opportunity. So, if you have a great idea (like a new creaser wheel), drop us a note at [email protected]. I assure you that you will be contacted.
> 
> Thanks and Good Finishing!


I have only had good dealing with Tapetech. Even back over a year ago guys warned me about the lack of support. Back then I bought a used set of boxes and a taper. I had never ran them before so I emailed tapetech some questions and to see about any training videos available.

Within a very short time (a day I think, maybe same day) I got a call back. The guy (Mark Wilson) spent over an hour with me on the phone explaining everything he could never rushing me with my stupid questions. He the RUSH shipped some dvds to me (same as posted on the site now) along with some product info and his card with a note to call him WHENEVER I need advice! :thumbup: All this when he knew I was buying used. He said he didn't care because I was still a customer!

Then of course Tapetech here on the site helping me resolve issues with my mudrunner. :thumbup: That made my day, after the year I had (truck trailer and most of my tools stolen) I could use all the help I could get!

Unfortunately my TT boxes were stolen, and the only good deal I came across that I couldn't pass up was Northstar. If I get the chance, I would switch back, I loved my TT boxes. 

scott


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## D's

I've got to thank Tape-tech for promoting and supporting CFS on this forum. It's a shame Aplatech has yet to do so. They're both great technologies.

If I couldn't use CFS(rarely), it would probably be faster by hand than regular auto tools anyways. Building a little box filler quick connect for my Aplatech CFS has been on my to do list for a while though just to see, it might come in handy if doing highwork with a banjo + closet monster. Up high is the only time I don't like being attached to a hose.


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## warrenjo

D's said:


> I've got to thank Tape-tech for promoting and supporting CFS on this forum. It's a shame Aplatech has yet to do so. They're both great technologies.
> 
> If I couldn't use CFS(rarely), it would probably be faster by hand than regular auto tools anyways. Building a little box filler quick connect for my Aplatech CFS has been on my to do list for a while though just to see, it might come in handy if doing highwork with a banjo + closet monster. Up high is the only time I don't like being attached to a hose.


So D's,does your apla-tech pump have a valve to fill old school tubes/boxes ? or do they sell the attachments to do so? If you don't mind me asking...thanks and p.s. do you use the newer slim-line boxes or the older sytem?


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## D's

My Apla CFS system uses a Graco Mark V pump, and does not presently have a box/bazooka filler, nor am I aware of Aplatech making one for CFS. A MarK V is totally overkill if you're just using it to fill tools. The Aplatech Jr. Pump, which is set up for filling tools, is more what you're looking for I think. I see them on eBay regularly too... see Aplatech.

As for boxes, I machined a hole in my Columbia Fatboys to go with the Aplatech brake handles, that way if the CFS goes down I can use my hand pump as a backup(reg. brake handles still work). I hear that the Aplatech boxes are very nice though and would like to try their coaters one day just to compare.


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## warrenjo

D's said:


> My Apla CFS system uses a Graco Mark V pump, and does not presently have a box/bazooka filler, nor am I aware of Aplatech making one for CFS. A MarK V is totally overkill if you're just using it to fill tools. The Aplatech Jr. Pump, which is set up for fillinf tools, is more what you're looking for I think. I see them on eBay regularly too... see Aplatech.
> 
> As for boxes, I machined a hole in my Columbia Fatboys to go with the Aplatech brake handles, that way if the CFS goes down I can use my hand pump as a backup(reg. brake handles still work). I hear that the Aplatech boxes are very nice though and would like to try their coaters one day just to compare.


Boy,sure like to see a pic of those columbia boxes with the machined hole for cfs,had heard about that but wondered how good it worked....thanks.


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## D's

Done, but on the Apla-Tech CFS thread.


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