# Doubling up on type x???



## lennis (Aug 17, 2015)

I have a client that would like to double up on 5/8" type x throughout the entire garage. Is that really effective? I can't see how having 2 layers will give you 2 hours of protection opposed to 1 hour.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

The occupancy separation between the U (garage) and R-3 is not a true 1 hour separation. It only calls for fire rated materials on one side, and we typically install it on the garage side. People who use 5/8" rock on the inside are wasting money foolishly IMHO. If the whacko wants 2 layers give it to him and save the cost of finishing the first layer. His door jamb won't flush up and he'll have to add a piece to nail his door casing on. He will not be getting a 2 hour rating either unless he puts two layers on the inside of the R-3.
Will he be installing a 60 minute door too instead of the required 20?

Edit: I'm wrong, I was quoting old West coast code as I was taught. Here's todays code:

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/icod_irc_2012_3_par058.htm

5/8" is only required on the ceilings and 1/2" can be used on walls.


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## lennis (Aug 17, 2015)

I currently call out using FireBloc Type X 5/8" wallboard on both walls and ceiling. And yes, a 60 min. door. I know that even though they are "tested" at 1 hour, that it may be sooner than an hour. And I couldn't imagine doubling up on the wallboard would increase the burn time. Thank you... I will let the client know it is not necessary.


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## Vega (Aug 20, 2015)

5/8 isn't required anymore unless there's a living space above garage.. It's all 1/2 through all 50 states ..putting 5/8 is pointless when fire doors are only 20 minute fire rating ... Doesn't help with anything .. If there worried about crooked trusses .. It's cheaper and faster to install rc1 channel then hang sheet rock on it ... ?? just my opoining !!


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## fenez (Nov 30, 2009)

My question is...As long as he is willing to pay for it why wouldnt you want to do it?


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## lennis (Aug 17, 2015)

I just wanted to know for myself because I have never had that request.
I have informed him that it is not necessary but if that is what he wanted then that is what we would do. So we will be doing 2 layers of wallboard.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Vega said:


> 5/8 isn't required anymore unless there's a living space above garage.. It's all 1/2 through all 50 states ..putting 5/8 is pointless when fire doors are only 20 minute fire rating ... Doesn't help with anything .. If there worried about crooked trusses .. It's cheaper and faster to install rc1 channel then hang sheet rock on it ... ?? just my opoining !!


Vega,
When going from a 1 hour rated area to a non rated area you use a 20 minute opening. When you from 1 hour to 1 hour you use a 60 minute opening.


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

We just did a firewall a few days ago, this was a 2hr wall. We used 3"and 5/8 18 gauge studs ,rock wool (roxul)insul. and 3/4" sheetrock.


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Vega said:


> 5/8 isn't required anymore unless there's a living space above garage.. It's all 1/2 through all 50 states ..putting 5/8 is pointless when fire doors are only 20 minute fire rating ... Doesn't help with anything .. If there worried about crooked trusses .. It's cheaper and faster to install rc1 channel then hang sheet rock on it ... ?? just my opoining !!


Here in Colorado 5/8" rock on lids and both sides of a garage wall are code.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> Here in Colorado 5/8" rock on lids and both sides of a garage wall are code.


Endo,
Here are the Colorado code amendments and I could not find this requirement.

http://www.coloradochaptericc.org/codechanges1209.pdf


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm no looking to argue on the UCC, I'm not a code guru.
What's being enforced here is 5/8" on ceiling and house wall *with living space above*, period. 
If there is no living space above,,, NO 5/8". 
If there is living space above,,, 5/8" on ceiling (screwed 6"O.C. w/ 1 7/8" screws) and 5/8" on house wall screwed 16" O.C.

I forgot,,,, exception, unless stated otherwise on blueprints.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

There has been common a misconception on 5/8's application since Pa. adopted the UCC. It's slowly coming around to less 5/8's overall.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> I'm no looking to argue on the UCC, I'm not a code guru.
> What's being enforced here is 5/8" on ceiling and house wall *with living space above*, period.
> If there is no living space above,,, NO 5/8".
> If there is living space above,,, 5/8" on ceiling (screwed 6"O.C. w/ 1 7/8" screws) and 5/8" on house wall screwed 16" O.C.
> ...


This just makes my blood boil at the pure ignorance of the JHA (jurisdiction having authority). The most stringent screw pattern for rated assemblies is 8' & 12" and that is on metal. Not one single UL test uses a screw longer than 1 1/4" for 5/8" rock on wood. To use a 1 7/8" screw on wood would effectively weaken the assembly IMHO.

On page 143 here see GA FC 5420.

http://www.lafarge-na.com/GA-600-09.pdf

It calls for 1 7/8" nails at 7" OC which is standard, and it would mean 12" OC with 1 1/4" screws.

Walls would be the same as shown on page 67 GA WP 3514

Single layer 12" OC with 1 1/4" drywall screws.

Keep in mind that the ICC will say installed per ASTM which in turn uses UL who uses the Gypsum Association.

I always politely pointed out errors in interpretation when it comes to our craft, and would hope others would do the same.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

I had an inspector inform me this past Tuesday on the 6" screw pattern, which he wasn't going to enforce, he was just "letting us know". I had never heard it before. 
I think you're on to something Willys, I'd wonder if he mistaken a nail pattern for a screw pattern. 
He gave my work mate a photocopy of the code, I hope he kept it.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

I can't find a drywall screw or nail table in the current code.

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/index.htm

Chapter 25 is drywall.


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Town of Vail inspectors, Eagle county inspectors and Summit county inspectors require 5/8" both sides of party walls, both sides of garage walls, 5/8" party wall ceilings with 1 hour floor assembly above (minimum) ,and 6" screw pattern in garage when it abuts to living space. I am having a job inspected today in Town of Vail. This was one of the inspectors requirements.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> Town of Vail inspectors, Eagle county inspectors and Summit county inspectors require 5/8" both sides of party walls, both sides of garage walls, 5/8" party wall ceilings with 1 hour floor assembly above (minimum) ,and 6" screw pattern in garage when it abuts to living space. I am having a job inspected today in Town of Vail. This was one of the inspectors requirements.


Sounds like a monument to the inspectors ego. I wonder if it is documented with a city ordinance?


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## Vega (Aug 20, 2015)

I'm pretty sure it's not code anymore .. I'd double check that ..


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

MrWillys said:


> Sounds like a monument to the inspectors ego. I wonder if it is documented with a city ordinance?


I work in a township where the inspector will fail the use of butt boards.
I asked him why, he said "their not up to standards". I asked what the standard was and he didn't have an answer, but he did have an ego.


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

The Uniform Building Code has little to do with our local codes. These codes are local. And much stricter still is the local fire marshal inspection. On many projects, the fire marshal is given a set of blueprints to do a code check. Although it is quite interesting that on some renovation work builders got away with murder not so long in the past. We must of course bring the units up to modern standards once we have cut into the walls.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> The Uniform Building Code has little to do with our local codes. These codes are local. And much stricter still is the local fire marshal inspection. On many projects, the fire marshal is given a set of blueprints to do a code check. Although it is quite interesting that on some renovation work builders got away with murder not so long in the past. We must of course bring the units up to modern standards once we have cut into the walls.


 First, the last edition of the UBC was in 1997. The governing code bodies in the US combined about 2000 and formed the International Code Congress, or ICC. All 50 states have adopted the International Building Code, or IBC including Colorado. Colorado then makes changes it feels it needs for its state. It the mandates the municipalities to adopt that code, and then they may make changes.
Basically, we are all governed by the same basic code. My question is that has Vail passed an ordinance to make these more stringent requirements legal, or is it simply misinterpretation?
Also, there is a new code for existing construction.

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/iebc/2012/index.htm


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Okay, it would appear that Vail's building department has misinterpreted chapter 25 as it pertains to drywall. This link shows Vail's amendments to the IBC, and no change has been made to chapter 25.

http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/codebook/index.php?book_id=560

I've said this over and over. The code is the code and most changes in geographic regions are based solely on human ignorance and understanding.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> Town of Vail inspectors, Eagle county inspectors and Summit county inspectors require 5/8" both sides of party walls, both sides of garage walls, 5/8" party wall ceilings with 1 hour floor assembly above (minimum) ,and 6" screw pattern in garage when it abuts to living space. I am having a job inspected today in Town of Vail. This was one of the inspectors requirements.


Endo,
Based on this post I sent the following to the Vail Building Official.

Dear Mr. Haeberle,
It has come to my attention that there may be possible misinterpretation by your department concerning the drywall industry. Recently, on a drywall chat board the following post was made.

"Town of Vail inspectors, Eagle county inspectors and Summit county inspectors require 5/8" both sides of party walls, both sides of garage walls, 5/8" party wall ceilings with 1 hour floor assembly above (minimum) ,and 6" screw pattern in garage when it abuts to living space".

Neither the IBC, or the IRC ever make reference to the separation of R1 and U occupancy being a true 1 hour assembly. I've checked your amendments, and Colorado state amendments and find no record of this being a requirement. IRC Chapter 3, Section R302, Table R302.6 is quite clear that Type X drywall is only required where there's habitable space above. IBC Chapter 25, Section 2508, Table 2508.1 directs installation standard of the Gypsum Association GA-216. This standard most stringent screw pattern is 8" and 12" OC on metal studs, and 12" OC on wood studs.


http://www.lafarge-na.com/GA-216-07_English.pdf


It is quite possible that I may overlooking something like a shear requirement as to why Drywallers are screwing drywall 6" OC. However, as code professionals we are entrusted to make proper interpretations. Another example, IBC Chapter 25, Section 2508, Paragraph 2508.3.1 Floating Angles. These floating angles depend on the drywall taping compound adhesive to hold the angle together. After more than 35 years in this industry I know that it works to reduce damage finishes due to better resistance to seasonal shifting. 


My background consists of growing up in a large residential drywall company. Joined the Union when I graduated high school. Went to school in 1990 to become an inspector and held ICBO certifications in Building, Electrical, and Mechanical. Never did work as an inspector and I retired in 2012. My only wish is to perpetuate my craft so that others may enjoy the future by learning from its past. Please give my concerns prudence and possibly share them with your staff. We now have one code standard throughout the US and the only difference is its interpretation.


Please feel free to contact me should there be any question(s).


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Vail is nothing. Try Breckinridge, Dillon, and Silverthorne in Summit County, CO if you really want to have some fun with inspectors. Vail seems to have relaxed a little. They have just recently stopped inspecting any drywall installations that have no fire rating significance. I think one phenomena which occurred was that code enforcement was apparently quite lax in the 1960's and 1970's and 1980's in this area. Inspectors checking units that were being refurbished were aghast at what was behind some of the sheetrock when old units were gutted. So they became much more strict in reconstruction. Nowadays it is very rare for anything but 5/8" type x sheetrock to be spec'd by architects or used in any structure . Mostly for improvement in the overall quality of the home or building.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Here's the response:

I do not know of any situation related to your concern. Your drywall contractor may be misinterpreting nails versus screws or possible the application. The Town of Vail requires the contractor to use assemblies as designed by the architect of record showing compliance with the building code. If the plans exceed code, we will approve the design as submitted. If I can help any further assistance please feel free to contact me

Kind of expected this honestly.


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## Vega (Aug 20, 2015)

Been doing drywall since 1997 ..were in Utah and we don't use 5/8 in residential unless living space above garage .. My wife helps me stock mud at times .. Only 5/8 used any more is the exterior board for patios lids .. There's a couple of pics of us ..


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