# Pan and Knife or Halk and Trowel?



## MudMaster

Here in Canada most guys use Halk and Trowel for hand taping...i hear in the U.S its mostly Pan and knife....any reason why?

Here if you show up on a union job with a pan and knife, they will think your a handyman...i have seen a guy get sent home when he started taping with a pan and knife...



MM


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## ThatDrywallGuy

MudMaster said:


> Here if you show up on a union job with a pan and knife, they will think your a handyman...i have seen a guy get sent home when he started taping with a pan and knife...
> 
> 
> 
> MM


that absolutely rediculous, what does it matter how the mud gets on the wall?

if anybody thinks a hawk and trowel is superior to a pan and knife or vise versa they are kidding themselves.

its how you use it that matters.

Chris


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## Custom Drywall Svc.

MudMaster said:


> Here in Canada most guys use Halk and Trowel for hand taping...i hear in the U.S its mostly Pan and knife....any reason why?
> 
> Here if you show up on a union job with a pan and knife, they will think your a handyman...i have seen a guy get sent home when he started taping with a pan and knife...
> 
> 
> 
> MM


get sent home???

in my area, i would say its vice versa.

for hand texturing, i see no problem with hawk and trowel, but all my guys use pan and knife.....and, of course on normal, big sized jobs.....taping with a bazooka, and following it with a pan and knife is normal...

i myself, would laugh at a finisher using a hawk and trowel...to me, that just seems inefficient, always having to worry about excess mud spilling out of the hawk.....when, with a pan, it obviously stays contained.

but, NONETHELESS, with methods varying from region to region, i see no problem at all with any of these methods.

who cares really? if a job foreman gives you crap for pulling out a hawk and trowel, he obviously doesnt know anything about drywall.

to each his own. as long as you can finish the job in an efficient manner, i dont care how you tape and finish.

i care mostly about the end-product.

hope that helps!


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## Al Taper

I use a Hawk n knifes most of the time. If iam on stilts doing tops or ceiling i will use a pan and knifes to tape with only. Taping by hand i like wetter mud. And you can hold more with a pan. 
But here in New Jersey guys from south NJ use a pan for every thing and guys from the north use a hawk for every thing. So i guess it goes by area.


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## brdn_drywall

hawk n trowel, load with stiff mud(thinning shrinks to much anyway) knives warp to fast unless you like working with a crowned tool,my guys are split some knife others trowel as long as the end result is good i don't care but i try to get all the green guys going with a trowel because i personally think its faster and with a straight edge better quality (non debatable in my mind)but a guy whos been using a knife for 15 yrs. and jumps on with us i will not impose my opinion on him


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## jzarate

Hawk and knifes for me most of the time except when taping behind bazooka.The rest of my guys use pan and knifes all the time except for 1. Ive tried turning them on to the hawk but they dont like it. I was the same way but now I hate grabbing a pan.


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## joepro0000

We use pans and knifes. Hawks and Throwels you would get laughed at, or thought of as an amature out here. Much faster I think with a pan. Plus you can spin the pan around, and do tricks!


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## Stephen

I was handed an 18" x 5 1/2" Marshalltown trowel and a 6" knife when first learning. 20 years later, those are the only two tools I use. Never larger knives, never a hawk, and most definitely never a pan. (I find the pan to be clumsy and messy). But as said by others, to each his own, as long as the finish product is professional.


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## Bevelation

I've never heard of a halk before, maybe I should check one out.

HA HA

Just kidding. I use hawk and trowel for almost everything except for the obvious. I respect the old-schoolers that can rip around a house coating with pan and knife. I find I just can't coat as smoothly, quickly and control it so well with pan and knife. I guess I suck.

As far as losing a lot of mud from your trowel to the floor, it's mostly time in the saddle that will help as far as keeping it on the walls.


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## ThatDrywallGuy

Bevelation said:


> I respect the old-schoolers that can rip around a house coating with pan and knife. .


 
thats a quote i never thought id hear, halks and trowels ARE old school, not pans and knives. they are remnants of the days of plaster.

ive also never seen a halk and trowel in action, except by stucco guys , and ive been in this for 22 years

Chris


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## taper71

I learned with hawk and trowel. Now I use knives and hawk. I will use a pan when I am taping for the same reason Al Taper does, and like That DywallGuy said- hawk and trowel is the old school method. Since switching to knives I have not once had tennis elbo and for those of you who have not been in the trade long enough that tennis elbo can lose you lots of time, money and give lots of pain. 

I find very few differences between the two methods, and have never run into a crowned knife or crowned a knife like brdn drywall claims. Mudding is more about finesse and floating than slapping it on with all your might. I can put mud on faster with a trowel, but its not so much faster as to save hrs in a day, maybe a buch of minutes. With a knife I do not get the knuckle drags and the corners come out cleaner where the bead meets in the corners - and like I said "Have Not had Tennis Elbo from using knives". Now as to pans , I personally do not like them because mud dries out on the edges and gets into the mud I am putting on the wall and nothing pees me off more than crap in my mud so I still use a hawk.


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## Al Taper

I do like useing a trowel if Iam filling in cornerbead. Like on a box beam or column.


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## drywallpro

I use a hawk and trowel to coat beads and butts. It puts a better fill on the beads. Trowels don't flex like knifes do. A hawk and trowel is a lot harder to learn in my opinion, thus the reason it is less popular. I use a pan and knife for everything else.


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## Bevelation

ThatDrywallGuy said:


> thats a quote i never thought id hear, halks and trowels ARE old school, not pans and knives. they are remnants of the days of plaster.
> 
> ive also never seen a halk and trowel in action, except by stucco guys , and ive been in this for 22 years
> 
> Chris


 You're right. When I said that, I completely forgot about plastering.:blink: I see 95% of tapers here use hawk and trowel for almost everything, and the ones that pan/knife it are in their 50's plus. Proves that I'm new to the trade in comparison with many on here.

I guess sticking with what I learned on got me staying with it. I feel better articulated with a trowel for coating than a broad knife.


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## FOR THOSE ABOUT

Geez atleast my dude is/nt on some porn site...well, I have worked with Bill for six years...I was only allolwed to spot screws for one year, with a 6" and a pan. I had to sleep with my six too...clean all his tools (Ohh not that one) for one year, I am still cleaning his tools(Ohh not that one) ....i was raised on knife and pan had to claw my way to 4" and 3" only to duplicate the tools he runs for angles, Bill doesn;t belivieve in anything less then the 6".. Go Figure.. My tutledge still goes on, I have progressed to broad knives but I shall always remain...ever proud, humble servant, pervayor of the arts...always learning, drinking, loving...drywall


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## Bevelation

^If I had spent my whole first year spotting screws only, I'd go completely bonkers. He should have done the smart thing and let you finish sand.


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## MudMaster

Halk and Trowel Old School???....all the apprentices from the training center and all taught with Halk and trowel only these days...

We only see the "island Guys" with Pan and knifes here, and you only see them piece work...


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## brdn_drywall

anyone that says a used 12" knife is not concave,crowned,or worped is only fooling themselves, i've only been in this racket for about 12 yrs. and have used both knives and trowels, if you hold up a 12" used knife and look down the edge you'll without any dought see a hook through it (perfect for butts if you have the wiping finess to coat with it) but when loading bead the center of the crown is closer to the drywall thats being loaded thus taking more material off. If you hold up a finishing trowel and look down the edge i'll be straight (mines about 8 yrs. old still straight), ya there are drawbacks to a trowel like knuckling in corners, and sloped ceilings with beams that create a tight angle that you can't get your edge into when holding handle,you guys that access to both should try this coat one side of bead with a knife and one side with a trowel let dry and check with a straight edge.


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## Bevelation

MudMaster said:


> Halk and Trowel Old School???....all the apprentices from the training center and all taught with Halk and trowel only these days...
> 
> We only see the "island Guys" with Pan and knifes here, and you only see them piece work...


I know, it sounds so backwards to us Canucks, but I guess it's true. Plaster aside, though, coating all p/k is old school. Not to diss guys doing p/k all the way, but if a 2 man team can polish 16,000-20,000 board feet of 9 foot in under 10 hours with p/k, I'd be impressed.


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## Bevelation

brdn_drywall said:


> anyone that says a used 12" knife is not concave,crowned,or worped is only fooling themselves, i've only been in this racket for about 12 yrs. and have used both knives and trowels, if you hold up a 12" used knife and look down the edge you'll without any dought see a hook through it (perfect for butts if you have the wiping finess to coat with it) but when loading bead the center of the crown is closer to the drywall thats being loaded thus taking more material off. If you hold up a finishing trowel and look down the edge i'll be straight (mines about 8 yrs. old still straight), ya there are drawbacks to a trowel like knuckling in corners, and sloped ceilings with beams that create a tight angle that you can't get your edge into when holding handle,you guys that access to both should try this coat one side of bead with a knife and one side with a trowel let dry and check with a straight edge.


I agree, 12" knives aren't concave, crowned or warped.....until you put pressure on the knife to finish your work. 

Knuckling with a trowel? Solution: if you're right handed, work from left to right; with tops, work the top joints before the ceiling butts if there are any that join.

Caving problems can happen with trowels, too. A lot of the time it's just the operator, ie., if the mud is mixed heavy for loading up bead, you could wipe too much off because of having to press to hard to flatten it without any wobble.


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## FOR THOSE ABOUT

Hey MudMaster... all I do is piece work...as a white chick...maybe I do not understsand the Toronto term for piece work, but I wouldn't mind meeting Mike Holmes and licking him in the teeth. Besides all the B.S. we bid all of our jobs no T & M


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## FOR THOSE ABOUT

Bottom Line...doesn't really matter now does it as long as we had some respect for the teachers! As students we are going to go out and try our own things whether we come back to what we originally learned or some offspring doesn't really matter as long as the finished product is the same...perfect


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## silverstilts

Everyone has there preferences , I do believe the hawk and trowel was most likely a carry over from the old plastering but that is neither here nor there , it is how you use them you can argue all you want there are pros and cons on both , i use to use a hawk and trowel now just strictly a knife man and i like the new knives for the weight but don't use them still use the old gold-b wooden handle which will not bow as much as the new knives , just something i grew accustom to , and the only one i use is a 10" which i don't seem to see the need to go to a 12 or wider , can do super work no matter how wide i have to go on the seams just something i learned . I had a worker that told me once the guy that trained him in started him out on butt seams if it didn't look right he made him go to a smaller knife until it was done right , sounds kinda backwards but helped him master a good technique for finishing. To each his own as long as it works who cares and , who is to say anything right!!!!!!


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## [email protected]

Strictly matter of personal preference in my humble opinion, but I (& all my finishers) use pan and knife. I was taught w/ hawk and crown trowel for butts, however if you check hi/lo sides of butt doesn't matter except finished product. I still use hawk and straight trowel on hand textures. My finishers do not own a hawk or trowel.


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## joepro0000

We can look at the gods of drywall stores, like Ames, and all they sell is knifes and pans. Ames has one of the best knifes, (with the yellow handle). So we know Knifes and Pans is know the drywaller tools. Hawks and Trowels are only the old plasters tools or masons/stucco guys.


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## brdn_drywall

ya i geuss i was apprenticed by an old dog that was born a taper like his old man was, had it in my hands for to many years to really give the pan and knife proper consieration, but if it isn't broke why fix it.


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## Bevelation

^I was apprenticed in Canada, where even the 1 out of 20 pan and knife guys own a hawk and trowel. It's not like I had the choice, but the tool of choice is obvious to me. Don't worry, pal. You're not alone.


joepro0000 said:


> We can look at the gods of drywall stores, like Ames, and all they sell is knifes and pans. Ames has one of the best knifes, (with the yellow handle). So we know Knifes and Pans is know the drywaller tools. Hawks and Trowels are only the old plasters tools or masons/stucco guys.


Only.....

Fascinating contrast from what is seen where I am as opposed to where you're seated.

Ames may be drywall gods where you are, but they aren't hot stuff here. There's maybe one rental outlet here for Ames tools to cover a 2 million + population in the area. Maybe if it was 1959, I'd agree with your statement.


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## FOR THOSE ABOUT

Ames started in 1939.


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## Bevelation

FOR THOSE ABOUT said:


> Ames started in 1939.


That's excellent and totally covered the point I didn't make.


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## Whitey97

I use a pan and knife (6") to touch up, and wiping tape, that's it. Other than that, it's all hauk and trowel. The only guys that use wide knifes are the "hacks" I was taught that a 6" was made to sit in your back pocket.


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## ThatDrywallGuy

Whitey97 said:


> The only guys that use wide knifes are the "hacks" .


 
Hehe, thats funny.:whistling2:


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## Whitey97

Well, that's what I was taught, personally, to each their own. Whatever you can make work, go for it. Who am I to say. I was also taught by an olde tyme, drunk half the time @$$ hole, however he was very precise, so I took what I could get for skills.


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## joepro0000

Yep you where thought by "keyword" old timer. Meaning he obviously never crossed over to the drywall finishing era, and probably was stuck in the plaster/lath/hawk/throwel generation.


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## Whitey97

Well, personally I still prefer my hawk and trowel, honestly. I've tried other methods. I always seem to go back to my faithful 14"


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## Bevelation

joepro0000 said:


> Yep you where thought by "keyword" old timer. Meaning he obviously never crossed over to the drywall finishing era, and probably was stuck in the plaster/lath/hawk/throwel generation.


 Associating such a "keyword" to drywall finishing would surprise you knowing how popular hawk and trowel use has become within just drywall "finishing".

Use of h/t by anyone now regardless of age doesn't indicate one bit whether or not they are stuck in some plaster era. It's simply a preference. No amount of "hero" talk is going to help, either way.


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## Bevelation

ThatDrywallGuy said:


> Hehe, thats funny.:whistling2:


 Know what's really funny?

I actually thought you were Myron Ferguson.


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## ThatDrywallGuy

i hope your not let down

people have been calling me that forever. i didnt even know there was a Myron Ferguson till about a month ago, when i seen the JLC forums.

i wondered if someone would be confused, i guess this answers that. lol

Myron is probably freezing his butt joints off in NY and im in Florida
and im Much,Much prettier:blink:lol

Chris


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## MudMaster

Bevelation said:


> Associating such a "keyword" to drywall finishing would surprise you knowing how popular hawk and trowel use has become within just drywall "finishing".
> 
> Use of h/t by anyone now regardless of age doesn't indicate one bit whether or not they are stuck in some plaster era. It's simply a preference. No amount of "hero" talk is going to help, either way.


 


totally agree


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## Whitey97

I was putzing with a knife and pan today... yes, on a sunday. I feel like I personally have more leverage and control with a h/t. I don't have to use as much force. I dunno.....


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## Bevelation

ThatDrywallGuy said:


> i wondered if someone would be confused, i guess this answers that. lol


Confused? no
Insulted? We...heh...elllll...that's another story.

He uses h/t, too. That's why I was taken aback by your first post stating you've never even seen, let alone used a trowel in use by a taper.


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## mudhen

*either or*

i have used both,pan and knife for my first 5 years then i switched to hawk and trowel, it really is a matter or preference,i hear this argument non stop and laugh.it boils down to the man running the tool


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## Diesel Drywall Inc.

Here in Pittsburgh, PA if a taper came on a job with a hawk and trowel he would be out the door in a second. I personally never saw a good taper that used a hawk and trowel, in my area anyways. We learn with a pan and knife like a taper should learn. Just my opinion!


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## Muddauber

I'm a pan & knife man.
I don't think I've ever seen a finisher in this area use hawk & trowel.
My mud is so soupy for some tasks, like taping, pulling corners,& running 3rd coat that I don't think I could keep the mud from sliding off the hawk.


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## ThatDrywallGuy

Bevelation said:


> Insulted? We...heh...elllll...that's another story.
> 
> .


i dont recall saying anything derogatory.


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## Whitey97

Muddauber said:


> I'm a pan & knife man.
> I don't think I've ever seen a finisher in this area use hawk & trowel.
> My mud is so soupy for some tasks, like taping, pulling corners,& running 3rd coat that I don't think I could keep the mud from sliding off the hawk.


 
well you can't use a hawk for pulling tape. However 3rd coat I use mine for. You just take less mud, and learn how to control it.


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## Bevelation

My third coat is a pole sander.


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## Bevelation

ThatDrywallGuy said:


> i dont recall saying anything derogatory.


You didn't need to....

haha you took me seriously.


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## Whitey97

Bevelation said:


> My third coat is a pole sander.


I've cut mine short a few times, and only went with 2, however I've found just to make sure there is enough there I stick the 3rd on for insurance. plus, I don't like tape to show through, it doesn't look professional


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## joepro0000

Funny talking about Myron, when I applied for the drywall license, one of the recommended books to read and study was his.


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## Whitey97

you guys have to have lisenses? I love Mn!


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## Bevelation

Whitey97 said:


> I've cut mine short a few times, and only went with 2, however I've found just to make sure there is enough there I stick the 3rd on for insurance. plus, I don't like tape to show through, it doesn't look professional


 Did it turn out fine the times you did 2 coats?


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## Bevelation

Diesel Drywall Inc. said:


> Here in Pittsburgh, PA if a taper came on a job with a hawk and trowel he would be out the door in a second. I personally never saw a good taper that used a hawk and trowel, in my area anyways. We learn with a pan and knife like a taper should learn. Just my opinion!


 What did you see as far as issues with hawk/trowel work?


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## joepro0000

Licensed - Workers Comp - Liability Insurance


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## Whitey97

Bevelation said:


> Did it turn out fine the times you did 2 coats?


I just don't like the way it turns out, yeah it's fine, however it's too close to showing tape for my liking.


Joe- how do you go about aqcuiring a license? anything special?


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## Mudshark

*Hawk and Trowel*



ThatDrywallGuy said:


> thats a quote i never thought id hear, halks and trowels ARE old school, not pans and knives. they are remnants of the days of plaster.
> 
> ive also never seen a halk and trowel in action, except by stucco guys , and ive been in this for 22 years
> 
> Chris


I was taught by a couple of older "stucco guys", been at drywall trade for 35 years and yes they are hawk and trowel. Seems this neck of the woods there is a mix with many of the better drywall finishers using hawk and trowel. I would guess more hawk and trowel than pan and knife. Chris, if you have never seen them in action you should, it is an artform and the mud goes on really fast. Still need the pan and knife for those tight spots though.


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## JoeMudder

MudMaster said:


> Here in Canada most guys use Halk and Trowel for hand taping...i hear in the U.S its mostly Pan and knife....any reason why?
> 
> Here if you show up on a union job with a pan and knife, they will think your a handyman...i have seen a guy get sent home when he started taping with a pan and knife...
> 
> 
> 
> MM


Hawk and trowel was originally intended for plaster because the trowel is best for that.

Knife and pan is designed for drywall work because the knife is best for that.

You need the right tools for the right job. One point is that you cannot get as much mud on a hawk as you can in a pan. Using a pan saves trips back to the bucket.

In plaster work you are not moving around the house like you are with drywall finishing.

Think about it, it just makes good sense.


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## Apple24

Bevelation said:


> I agree, 12" knives aren't concave, crowned or warped.....until you put pressure on the knife to finish your work.
> 
> Knuckling with a trowel? Solution: if you're right handed, work from left to right; with tops, work the top joints before the ceiling butts if there are any that join.
> 
> Caving problems can happen with trowels, too. A lot of the time it's just the operator, ie., if the mud is mixed heavy for loading up bead, you could wipe too much off because of having to press to hard to flatten it without any wobble.


 Smart guy :thumbup:


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## tapingfool

how can I use a hawk when I am applying mud with a 16 inch knife?? doesnt work..I say whatever you use if the end result is excellent then use it..does anyone use the mud tubes to apply compound? I started using them and they are quicker for putting mud on by hand..


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## brdn_drywall

i still love using my tubes, tape flats and butts with the taper up and down angles with the taper but top angles by hand with tube applying the mud, role and glaze with angle heads.
I like the accuracy up there instead of too long or too short, rip or fill the ends with short tapes also use it for coating the inside angles when there are multiple jobs on the go and apla tec/graco cfs system is being used elsewhere, also always have one on every job site (with flat and corner adaptors) just in case taper has problems, for a backup taping alternative instead of having downtime on the job and guys standing around waiting for taper to get up and running


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## Bevelation

JoeMudder said:


> Hawk and trowel was originally intended for plaster because the trowel is best for that.
> 
> Knife and pan is designed for drywall work because the knife is best for that.
> 
> You need the right tools for the right job. One point is that you cannot get as much mud on a hawk as you can in a pan. Using a pan saves trips back to the bucket.
> 
> In plaster work you are not moving around the house like you are with drywall finishing.
> 
> Think about it, it just makes good sense.


 No. 








FYI: My hawk comfortably holds as much mud as a 3/4 full 14" pan. Anything more, and it just tires your arm.


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## Steve

Diesel Drywall Inc. said:


> Here in Pittsburgh, PA if a taper came on a job with a hawk and trowel he would be out the door in a second. I personally never saw a good taper that used a hawk and trowel, in my area anyways. We learn with a pan and knife like a taper should learn. Just my opinion!


It's true, you never see tapers using a trowel around here. 
I didn't see it happen until I was asked to watch over a drywall crew in West Virginia. I saw all these guys pull out hawks and trowels and I thought I was in for a lot of punch list work. But these guys knew what they were doing. They did great work fast. Not the friendliest bunch. 

I will use a trowel on a few occasions for finishing. But I always use a hawk and trowel for EIFS.


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## drywalljoe

in ohio you use what you are trained with . i know guys who use hawk and trial and i use a pan and knife it doent really matter just as long as the job get done right in a efficient amount of time


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## Muddauber

drywalljoe said:


> in ohio you use what you are trained with . i know guys who use hawk and trial and i use a pan and knife it doent really matter just as long as the job get done right in a efficient amount of time


 
Here ya go ******,

Run with it!:thumbup:


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## Whitey97

:no:Some days I don't even know if it's worth it. I read this one this morning and just did this---> :bangin:


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## Bevelation

^LOL

At least you're not the only one.


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## Whitey97

between some of you guys on here and my stupid "assistant" I have my own personal Jerry Springer show, and Maury all in one!



"YOU ARE THE FATHER!"
:help:


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## drywalljoe

i have obviously missed something


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## Whitey97

yup, now go sit in the corner


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## JoeMudder

*Conclusion*

Here's the long story, short...

Technically, trowels and hawks were made for plaster. When drywall came into being they continued to be used because there was nothing else. Later, someone realized that a knife and pan would be easier for drywall because of the nature of the work. Tools were designed for a specific purpose.

Now the reality of the matter...

We all have different personalities and ideas, some use hawk with knives, some hawk and trowel while others use pan and knives. And there are yet tools outside of these as well.

Here is the key... YOU BASICALLY HAVE TO USE WHAT YOU ARE COMFORTABLE USING. The goal is to produce a product that is ready for paint. How we accomplish that is up to the individual, to push our own agenda onto another person is nick picky in my opinion.

...nuff said


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## JoeMudder

Bevelation said:


> My third coat is a pole sander.


Then the dust fills the pock marks and when the dust falls off the wall the pock marks show. The nature of any compound I've seen and worked with always leaves pock marks. You need a final thin coat to fill those all in, that's the purpose behind a skim coat. You won't convince me ever that a two coat system is good. It's very unprofessional also.

I'd much rather apply a skim coat and dust it with a pole sander than to grind out two coats.


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## JoeMudder

Bevelation said:


> No.
> FYI: My hawk comfortably holds as much mud as a 3/4 full 14" pan. Anything more, and it just tires your arm.


On skim coat too?

Incidentally, my arm doesn't get tired.


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## Whitey97

JoeMudder said:


> Then the dust fills the pock marks and when the dust falls off the wall the pock marks show. The nature of any compound I've seen and worked with always leaves pock marks. You need a final thin coat to fill those all in, that's the purpose behind a skim coat. You won't convince me ever that a two coat system is good. It's very unprofessional also.
> 
> I'd much rather apply a skim coat and dust it with a pole sander than to grind out two coats.


I don't give a f*** what I've got. I'll make it smooth with a license plate if I have to.


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## carpentaper

Whitey97 said:


> I don't give a f*** what I've got. I'll make it smooth with a license plate if I have to.


 your so manly, you big manly man.:blush:


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## Jay21j

I had a setter from new zearland come and work for me and he would use a 12" trowel to hold plaster and put it on with a 8" or 12" trowel and he said alot them work like that in nz


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## Jay21j

I use a hawk and trowel and sometimes a knife for blending
but alot people use a hawk and knife over in Australia
dont see many pans being used


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## ThatDrywallGuy

Whitey97 said:


> I don't give a f*** what I've got. I'll make it smooth with a license plate if I have to.


now thats some funny [email protected]!

Chris


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## [email protected]

Think the first "mudpan" was a breadpan....


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## Bevelation

[email protected] said:


> Think the first "mudpan" was a breadpan....


 You mean bedpan.


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## Bevelation

JoeMudder said:


> On skim coat too?
> 
> Incidentally, my arm doesn't get tired.


No, probably not on skim coat. I do mix on the heavier side depending the mud used.



JoeMudder said:


> Then the dust fills the pock marks and when the dust falls off the wall the pock marks show. The nature of any compound I've seen and worked with always leaves pock marks. You need a final thin coat to fill those all in, that's the purpose behind a skim coat. You won't convince me ever that a two coat system is good. It's very unprofessional also.


I'm not condemning the 3 coat system. It very well may work excellently, but here I don't find it to be of much advantage. If I do 3 coats by machine on flats, I still get orange peel, and it all needs to be sanded, or else it shows behind paint. I don't use setting compound for filling, so maybe that has something to account for. There are tricks to minimize pock on the first coat.

If it's done right, you won't get pock with 2 coats.


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## wnybassman

I feel like somewhat of an oddball using a hawk and knife. That's all I've known for the last 20+ years.

A pan always looked difficult to control the "crumbs" of semi-hardened compound, and trowels are for masons around here. lol


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## R.E. Plaster

I use a knife and pan when taping around this area the only tapers you see with a hawk and trowel are the real old school finishers, but hey you can't knock there work it looks as good as anybodies

When plastering though I use a hawk and trowel I like the Curry's they break in real nice


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## MEXICAN ROCK 4 U

Hawk and trowel for plaster jobs over (imperial board,EIFES,spancreet) & pan and knife gypsum board MY MEXICAN WAY OF DOING IT .


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## Stormy_Ny

I am a hawk man ..... Use knifes and trowel. I could never get used to the pan.


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## d-rock

Hawk


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## A+ Texture LLC

I'm a man pan man, with my man pan.


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## carpentaper

i broke my left wrist real bad a couple times when i was a kid, so holding a pan for any extended period of time(10 minutes or longer) just kills me. wiping tapes is usually the worst time cause the pan just keeps getting heavier.i still haven't tried wiping with the hawk. i use the hawk for everything else and use the trowel for most jobs except the tight spots. i make less mess using a hawk because i can place the mud in the middle of the blade so it doesn't spill over the edge. honestly i think i've never spent enough time using pan and knife to really master it. hawk and trowel has always felt more natural to me. its like my mini surfboard surfing the white wave down the wall brah.


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## carpentaper

R.E. Plaster said:


> I use a knife and pan when taping around this area the only tapers you see with a hawk and trowel are the real old school finishers, but hey you can't knock there work it looks as good as anybodies
> 
> When plastering though I use a hawk and trowel I like the Curry's they break in real nice


i have a curry 4.5"x14.5". love the way it feels, except the handle. its to fat for my dainty little hands. been thinking about machining it down a little but i'm scared to F it up.


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## kgphoto

*Best of both worlds.*

I use a knife and pan, or a knife and Hawk or a Hawk and trowel or a trowel and knife ( like Myron F - just to try it on a quick patch for fun).

I like the hawk because it is easier to clean. I like the pan, when my mud is soupier for the skim coats. I like a trowel for deep fills. I get to use the larger muscles in my arm rather than the smaller one in my wrist and hand. I like the knives (mostly 6 and 12) for the delicate or finesse work.

I also work stucco, cement and thinset so I am comfortable working a trowel and hawk.


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## carpentaper

i have seen one guy use a pan and trowel. it was kind of goofy but he got the job done. sort of.


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## MudMonkey

I'm in Canada and was taught with a pan and knife. I can use a trowel on concrete no problem but on a wall....my mud is just to think and it seems insane! I won't hire guys on a hawk or taping out of a pail!


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## Stormy_Ny

MudMonkey said:


> I'm in Canada and was taught with a pan and knife. I can use a trowel on concrete no problem but on a wall....my mud is just to think and it seems insane! *I won't hire guys on a hawk* or taping out of a pail!


Sometimes ya just got to wonder ??????


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## Arey85

MudMonkey said:


> I'm in Canada and was taught with a pan and knife. I can use a trowel on concrete no problem but on a wall....my mud is just to think and it seems insane! I won't hire guys on a hawk or taping out of a pail!


Whats wrong with taping out of the bucket. I keep my bucket on a dolly and it goes with me all around the job. This way i can grab as much mud as i need for each joint and when im taping corners i keep my roller right in the bucket. I dont see how anyone can use a pan or a hawk. the mud dries out in the corners and is a pain to clean. and as for the hawk...why take up the use of your other hand just to hold your supply? thats what the bucket on the dolly is for. I use a trowel and a knife...the most efficient way to tape and use both hands productively.


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## Quality1st

*What*

:blink: What the hell :whistling2:


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## [email protected]

Arey85 said:


> Whats wrong with taping out of the bucket. I keep my bucket on a dolly and it goes with me all around the job. This way i can grab as much mud as i need for each joint and when im taping corners i keep my roller right in the bucket. I dont see how anyone can use a pan or a hawk. the mud dries out in the corners and is a pain to clean. and as for the hawk...why take up the use of your other hand just to hold your supply? thats what the bucket on the dolly is for. I use a trowel and a knife...the most efficient way to tape and use both hands productively.


Your photo show you holding a hawk........:lol::lol:


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## [email protected]

Arey85 said:


> Whats wrong with taping out of the bucket. I keep my bucket on a dolly and it goes with me all around the job. This way i can grab as much mud as i need for each joint and when im taping corners i keep my roller right in the bucket. I dont see how anyone can use a pan or a hawk. the mud dries out in the corners and is a pain to clean. and as for the hawk...why take up the use of your other hand just to hold your supply? thats what the bucket on the dolly is for. I use a trowel and a knife...the most efficient way to tape and use both hands productively.


Your photo shows you holding a hawk........:lol::lol:


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## silverstilts

Arey85 said:


> Whats wrong with taping out of the bucket. I keep my bucket on a dolly and it goes with me all around the job. This way i can grab as much mud as i need for each joint and when im taping corners i keep my roller right in the bucket. I dont see how anyone can use a pan or a hawk. the mud dries out in the corners and is a pain to clean. and as for the hawk...why take up the use of your other hand just to hold your supply? thats what the bucket on the dolly is for. I use a trowel and a knife...the most efficient way to tape and use both hands productively.


I am so confused , so what do you do when you are working high areas? where is the bucket on the dolly then. How on earth can you keep your trowel clean by wiping on the bucket and if you are using a knife and trowel both your hands would have a tool in them anyway ? Mud doesn't really dry out in the corners unless your pan is mostly empty or you haven't mastered the use of it .... either way pan & knife hawk & trowel or knife and hawk everyone has their own way of smearing mud and finishing a wall, It is just a matter of how many crumbs they leave behind or how smooth and flat of finish they can leave. That's what separates the men from the boys, or the pros from the do it yourself novices. I just can't imagine working out a pail it must be a real mess to clean up the floor when you are done.:help:


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## Arey85

i agree that everyone is going to use what they were taught to use. however my photo shows me using a trowel to hold my mud and using my 6'' knife to wipe down the edges then i will transfer my mud onto my knife and use the trowel to wipe down my coat. As for the bucket.....when im done with the ground work and i jump on the stilts i throw a couple pails under the one im working out of and roll it around with me. Every once in a while i just wipe the sides of the bucket down and everything stays clean. No mess on the floor


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## kgphoto

Gosh, it looks like there is more than one way to do the job efficiently. Who'da thunk it?


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## silverstilts

so matt are you a hand taper on first coat ? or are you using the banjo ? I am assuming no tools like the bazooka since you are hand finishing on the pic. Just curious. word of advice invest in a small scaffold on wheels it will save a lot of trips to your stacked up pails. you can buy them at most outlets for around a hundred bucks.


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## Arey85

silverstilts said:


> so matt are you a hand taper on first coat ? or are you using the banjo ? I am assuming no tools like the bazooka since you are hand finishing on the pic. Just curious. word of advice invest in a small scaffold on wheels it will save a lot of trips to your stacked up pails. you can buy them at most outlets for around a hundred bucks.


I appreciate your advice. I bought one of those fold up bakers at home depot a few black fridays ago after seeing a taper using one of them to tote his tools around. i used it once but its soo big to wheel around. i guess on big hotel jobs and such it would work but the only time i ever use it is when doing tall acoustic ceilings off stilts. My dolly is smaller and i dont have to make small trips to the pail cuz i wheel it around with me. my tools are in the bottom pail attached to the dolly and i can stack it 4 or 5 high to do 10' ceilings. Ive tried the boxes and auto tools but they just take all the fun and art out of taping. im good with my dolly whatever trowels i need for the day depending on which coat im doing hang onto the pail handel. 
p.s. I didnt mean to get everyone all stirred up about this i was just so suprised to see that in this whole thread nobody seems to work out of a pail. All the tapers in this area use a dolly, and the only time i see auto tools are like i said during hotels or big commercial projects. Im used to doing residential homes, smaller office buildings and condo complexes. I dont think ive ever done more than 500 sheets with a partner in one phase before.


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## Capt-sheetrock

Arey85 said:


> p.s. I didnt mean to get everyone all stirred up about this i was just so suprised to see that in this whole thread nobody seems to work out of a pail. .


Maybe cause this is a professional drywallers forum????? Just saying ya know


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## silverstilts

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Maybe cause this is a professional drywallers forum????? Just saying ya know


 I may not agree either , however buy looking at his picture on his profile page his work looks good. hard to tell from a small pic. It's not the norm and could be a little slow going but to each his own.


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## Arey85

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Maybe cause this is a professional drywallers forum????? Just saying ya know


 
Someone is full of jokes i see  But what can i expect by arguing with old schoolers


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## silverstilts

Arey85 said:


> Someone is full of jokes i see  But what can i expect by arguing with old schoolers


 Hey don't knock us old schoolers we could teach you a thing or two, actually after all these years we can all learn from each other young or old don't matter, there is always someone out there with better methods (at least for them)


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## JoeMudder

Even though I think working out of a bucket is really goofy, if someone wants to work out of one it doesn't effect my paycheck.


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## silverstilts

PS I always make the most out of my strokes:thumbup: that is with the knife.... I worked with guys that move a hundred miles an hour constantly slapping their knives on their pans or constantly wiping their trowels on the hawk , guess what at the end of the day guess who usually does the most production? It is the experience and also when it comes time to sand well lets just say they would rather sand behind yours truly instead of themselves some just don't learn i guess.


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## kgphoto

That was a very nice series of posts Silverstilts.


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## Arey85

silverstilts said:


> Hey don't knock us old schoolers we could teach you a thing or two, actually after all these years we can all learn from each other young or old don't matter, there is always someone out there with better methods (at least for them)


 
Believe me, I'm not knocking old schoolers I learned half of what i know from a guy in his late 50's. From him i learned cleanliness and quality, and my partner now, in his early 30's ive learned speed, which is something I've gotten to be very proud of..... Flipping a glob of mud right off the trowel and into the bucket from across the room without looking really drops jaws.


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## Arey85

kgphoto said:


> That was a very nice series of posts Silverstilts.


You never read this......but.....I agree


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## johnnydrywall

brdn_drywall said:


> anyone coat one side of bead with a knife and one side with a trowel let dry and check with a straight edge.


 I used to use a pan and knife but was told by the finishing carpenters that the beads were hollow, so I found out by one of the best taper I've ever seen that the knives bend too easy and take out too much mud. I tried a halk and trowel, it took me awhile and spilled a lot of mud on the ground but once I got used to it i never use the big knives again, except for certain textures and the odd tight spot.


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## silverstilts

A lot of not leaving enough mud is in the technique with a knife, and of course depending on the quality of the knife itself and how thick you run your mud. I prefer to use slightly thinner mud with a knife and not work it so hard but gentle. Most of the newer knives out there are cheaply made with really no spring in the backbone (rib holding the blade) of the knife so they tend to bend and stay concave leaving the bead hollow. It really boils down to experience and the feel for the tool in your hand. I started out with a hawk & trowel 14" at that, then went to a 12' then switched to knives about 28-30 years ago. I only use one knife as far as finish I wont even go into that width because most would not even begin to understand why but very efficient with it.


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## JoeMudder

johnnydrywall said:


> I used to use a pan and knife but was told by the finishing carpenters that the beads were hollow, so I found out by one of the best taper I've ever seen that the knives bend too easy and take out too much mud. I tried a halk and trowel, it took me awhile and spilled a lot of mud on the ground but once I got used to it i never use the big knives again, except for certain textures and the odd tight spot.


I fill all of mine with a knife and pan, you just have to know what kind of pressure to apply. I had to coat behind a finisher once who fell off a scaffold and broke some bones and couldn't complete the job. He had put too much pressure on the first coat on his seams and after the job was done you could see the shoulders of the board on some of the ceilings. There are guys who just press too hard when they're coating. You also have to use a low shrinkage compound when filling bead. I've seen guys who actually put general purpose compound on them and the stuff shrinks so much that it cracks also. If you are mixing durabond make sure you don't mix it too thin, I usually mix mine thicker for coating bead the first time than what I mix for flat seams.

If your mud is mixed right and you apply the correct pressure when putting it on the board a knife and pan will do a great job and do it faster than other tools can.


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## Capt-sheetrock

guess it all comes down to knowing what your doing,, regardless of what type of knife or trowel you use


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## Axecutioner-B

I thought this was a good read, didn't know H&T was so popular. Interesting to see so many different opinions. I work with a guy who loves an 18" pan, that's all he will use & he can almost hold half a box in it. I don't want to touch that thing, too heavy for me. I'm not Friggin popeye lol !!
________
Chantal live


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## mudslingerdrywall

I learned with hawk & Trowel. The guy I learned from told me on day 1 - "this is a hawk...you're going to want to hold it pretty well level...you WILL drop mud...you get better at not doing that." By the end of the job a couple weeks later, I didn't drop mud, and after 6 years with the hawk, I can't even imagine using a pan.


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## DSJOHN

I hate pans, jmo. Dsjohn


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## jmr

taping i've always used pan and 6" knife.. then coat with hawk and trowel. switched to coating with pan and knife and i'll explain why.. 

first though, troweling bead is BY FAR faster. it uses natural hand and arm motions and is a stiffer tool so mud can float much farther.. plus you can focus the mud on your hawk much more efficiently because its a flat surface....

i switched to 14" pan and 10'' knife for coating 2nd and 3rd for a couple reasons..

1. its cheaper.. pan cost $10 and a good ames knife cost under $10

2. more convenient. you can set a pan full of mud anywhere vs a hawk which spaces to set are very limited.. plus the pan can carry more mud meaning less trips back and forth to mud bucket while on stilts..

3. its alot easier to break in a knife vs trowel.. it took me over a year to break in a ss trowel and less then a couple weeks to break in my knife.. 

4. i can reach 8'' bead from the floor with a knife meaning less time on stilts...

mainly i just started using pan and knife because i lost my trowel and didn't feel like buying another because of the price.. plus i had 1 million misc. blades laying around so i just said f it.. 

so i'm using pan and knife and i dig it.. :thumbup:


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## drywallmike08

MudMaster said:


> Here in Canada most guys use Halk and Trowel for hand taping...i hear in the U.S its mostly Pan and knife....any reason why?
> 
> Here if you show up on a union job with a pan and knife, they will think your a handyman...i have seen a guy get sent home when he started taping with a pan and knife...
> 
> 
> 
> MM


 only after reading posts on this site did i buy a hawk & trowel ( last weekend ) and you hawk guys can keeep em but i agree use what works for you at least i tried


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## Capt-sheetrock

DSJOHN said:


> I hate pans, jmo. Dsjohn


Thats cusee your a plaster HERO. When I do stucco, I use a hawk and trowel, and some times I break em out when the ole goats getting to busting my ba##s. However, I find that in drywall finishing, the pan is the money maker. 

I can run a corner with the end of my trowel,, like I said, I learned it that way. A pan is just faster for mud, thats all. 

Embrace the pan !!!!!!!!!!!! LOL,,,, become ONE with it !!!!


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## tricounty dwall

I hvae used a hawk and knives but never a trile. But as far as it goes for me im a pan and knife man. But as far as people were saying about running a 14 on flats with a hawk and trile. Id rather run my flat box :thumbsup:. And bed my butts with a 12 and skim them with a 14. I have yet to see but 2 people here that used a hawk and they worked for me. Thats why i learned it.


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## Kiwiman

I've never seen a pan for sale around here so have never had the opportunity to try one, I can see the advantages of using a pan for wiping down/bedding in tape. about once every year I have a hawk full of mud slip off and drop on my foot.


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## Axecutioner-B

Kiwiman said:


> I've never seen a pan for sale around here so have never had the opportunity to try one, I can see the advantages of using a pan for wiping down/bedding in tape. about once every year I have a hawk full of mud slip off and drop on my foot.


A sign of a real pigeon farmer 
________
Wong Amat Beach


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## DSJOHN

Don,t drop mud off my hawk,but certainly have dropped some plaster.


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## Capt-sheetrock

DSJOHN said:


> Don,t drop mud off my hawk,but certainly have dropped some plaster.


 
Man, I feel your pain,,, I got to where I drop everything,,, even my dignity !!!! LOL :yes:


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