# Butt Joints?



## Jay21j (Apr 18, 2009)

Just wondering how everyone finishes Butt joints by hand or with boxes

I set by hand with a hawk and trowel and use chemical set plaster 45 minute (base compound) for all coats and air dry final coat (topping)
1st coat tape the joint (base compound) 
2nd coat Skim the tape 12" wide down the middle (base compound) 
3rd coat Set 12" left and right of the tape (24" wide base compound) 
4th coat set 12" down the middle and 12" left and right (36" wide topping)

I’m about to start setting boxes could I do something similar?


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

that is a lot of coats. most guys here only do two coats after tape and a third only if necessary. whatever works though. i also don't like using the setting type compounds unless i have to for speed. i finish by hand with a hawk and trowel unless its in a tight spot.


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

i don't have any boxes but if i did i would probably never put setting compounds in them. JMO


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## Jay21j (Apr 18, 2009)

Im from Australia and its very cut throat and we sett a standard house in one day sand off the next so we really have to use setting compounds otherwise there is no money in it

for flats
tape (setting compound)
8" 2nd coat (setting compound)
10-12" final coat (air dry)
sand off

So I would really need to be using setting compounds in tapers and boxes
does any one do this? any hints or tips


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

i'm just a newbie anyway. i'm sure someone else here can give you some other opinions.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

Nope, I take my time and do it right. I only use setting compounds to fill gaps.


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## Jay21j (Apr 18, 2009)

Whitey97 said:


> Nope, I take my time and do it right. I only use setting compounds to fill gaps.


I’m not saying we are quick and ruff
But it’s what they are teaching from day one in the technical collage
And specified from the suppliers here
Base cote to bed the tapes and for 2nd coat
Topping to finish
They only really sell Base cote, Cornice cement and Topcote

So do you all use air dry for all coats?
Is it 24 hour drying time?


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

It's college my friend.

Yes, I air dry for all coats. It's always dry by the next day, it's been that way for 15 years straight!


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

atta boy ****** do it right the first time, stick with the air dry, gaps are all chemical setting/hot mud is good for.........come to think of it this is one of the first times I'm actually agreeing with you on something.


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## Jay21j (Apr 18, 2009)

Whitey97 said:


> Yes, I air dry for all coats. It's always dry by the next day, it's been that way for 15 years straight!


That is really good to know!
The manufacturers over here specify setting compound (hot mud) to bed tapes and for 2nd coat so we have to comply or they won’t guarantee their product
So you all set one coat per day?
What about small jobs 1 or 2 rooms?


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## tapingfool (Mar 11, 2009)

When I coat butt seams, I do it several ways depending on what the job calls for. I may : tape normally then check the butt joint with a 3 foot level, then fill on both sides of the tape with compound (lite), then feather both edges, then with 1 or 2 swipes finish with a 2 foot knife up the middle. Or use a double seven inch box or double ten then to finish a double 12!!


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

brdn_drywall said:


> atta boy ****** do it right the first time, stick with the air dry, gaps are all chemical setting/hot mud is good for.........come to think of it this is one of the first times I'm actually agreeing with you on something.


Come on now. With over 400 posts I'm sure there's been more than just this one time! 


Honestly I think I might buy 1 bag of "hot mud" per pallet of lite blue.
I tape 1/2 and 1/2 with all purpose (or close to it) and do the rest with lite blue.


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

about 397 of your 420 posts are one or two line wise cracks the other 23 are actually your profesional insite, but who's counting and we all come to sorta expect it anyway


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## 19Riggs88 (Apr 25, 2009)

Jay21j said:


> Just wondering how everyone finishes Butt joints by hand or with boxes
> 
> I set by hand with a hawk and trowel and use chemical set plaster 45 minute (base compound) for all coats and air dry final coat (topping)
> 1st coat tape the joint (base compound)
> ...


A butt joint can be nicely coated with boxes after joint tape is dry as follows:

For ceiling spray-
1) Split the butts with a 10" box set on "0" or wide open. To do this just run the box down each side of the tape with the wheel on the 
center of the tape. 
2) Run down the center of the butt with a 12" box set on "1"...note:you want to go down the centers with the box set so it is leaving just enough mud to cover the tape
3) Cross off the ends of the butts by hand

For knock down-
1) Same as above

For orange peel 
1) Split the butts with a 10" box set on "0" or wide open running wheel down center of tape
2) Split the butts again with a "12" box set on "0" running wheel down center of tape
3) Coat the center of the butts with a "12" knife by hand
4) Cross off the ends of the butts by hand

For paint smooth
1) Split the butts with a 10" box set on "0" 
2) Run down the center of the butts with a 12" box set on "1"
3) Cross off the ends of the butts by hand
4) Give the butts a finnish coat by hand

This sounds like extra steps but when doing a lot of ceilings or a big job that's when there is a huge difference on making the butts go easier.

Some minor tips are: Always put the box tight up to the corners when coating especially first time with the 10"

Always start and pull off within 2" of the seams recess

For nice smooth joints: when prefilling before taping get in a habit of filling all the butts automatically. 
When wiping tape don't wipe too tight.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2009)

19Riggs88 said:


> A butt joint can be nicely coated with boxes after joint tape is dry as follows:
> 
> 
> For paint smooth
> ...


That's just about what I do except that I use the 12" box on the center AND the outside edges of the butts on the second pass.


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## 19Riggs88 (Apr 25, 2009)

Steve said:


> That's just about what I do except that I use the 12" box on the center AND the outside edges of the butts on the second pass.


There are many interesting ways I've seen people use the boxes for butts.

For paint smooth it is best to do the finish coat by hand because boxes take a little getting used to to master not getting pock marks.

But it seems to me that for any type of texture the boxes do a very nice job on first coat for sure. It is easier to leave descent mud on both sides of the tape with a box. Plus I like using the boxes because it makes the job look more professional with perfect mud lines, etc.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

:stupid: I agree with you 100% ^


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## 19Riggs88 (Apr 25, 2009)

Whitey97 said:


> :stupid: I agree with you 100% ^


 
Cool thanks....


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

last summer i subbed out finishing to a couple of guys who coated there butts without doing a final finish by hand the ones on the ceiling hid all right as i did a k/d but the wall ones needed a skim after prime, was not impressed and got rid of them after the 2nd house, can't figure out your time savings by the two coats with the box and a skim as compared to a 30" base coat with a skim over that for a final.


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## 19Riggs88 (Apr 25, 2009)

brdn_drywall said:


> last summer i subbed out finishing to a couple of guys who coated there butts without doing a final finish by hand the ones on the ceiling hid all right as i did a k/d but the wall ones needed a skim after prime, was not impressed and got rid of them after the 2nd house, can't figure out your time savings by the two coats with the box and a skim as compared to a 30" base coat with a skim over that for a final.


You have to take into consideration that with a box I can coat each side of the butt with one stroke that takes about 5 seconds for each side (10sec per butt) on first step. Second step when coating down center is about 5 seconds. Third step is cross off the ends by hand like coating a row of screws 5 sec. These are perfect butts for Ceiling Spray or Knock Down. When on an apartment or big house with this finish you can really be efficient with a smaller tape crew properly using these tools.

For orange peel and smooth do the same as above but give it a finish coat by hand and you still gain production.


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## Brockster (Dec 15, 2007)

Don't you guys look or feel for the hollow side of the butt and go from there?:blink:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Butts have a hollow side? Is that dependent on how you put on first coat - with knife or with box? And the setting you're using on your box? Or are you talking about when the butts don't marry up to each other evenly?


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## Muddauber (Jan 26, 2008)

brockster said:


> don't you guys look or feel for the hollow side of the butt and go from there?:blink:



yes!


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

My taper can see that low side from 5 feet away, me, I've actually still got to lay a 10 or 12 on it to see which side (if) needs the heavy fill.


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## markus (May 27, 2009)

Mine is similar to other guys:
After the tape is dry we 
-coat down the center with a 10 inch on 1 or full out
-next day both sides are ran on about a 2 with the 12 inch
then we let it set for a bit and skim the entire butt joint by hand. You need to make sure your mud is thin otherwise you will get pin holes. Try it out if you want. adios


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## rebel20 (Jun 4, 2009)

Hawk and trowel 3" each side german technology


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## rebel20 (Jun 4, 2009)

45 min mud no tape


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## MudMonkey (Jun 9, 2009)

i go down each side with my 10" box, let it set up a bit then one down the middle with an 8" knife and wipe in the ends. Next day 12" box down both sides and wipe it in again with an 8 or 10" knife. I never have a bump...always finishes flush


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

I think I have finally solved my problems with butt joints. At least when I am hanging. I no longer am butting them on the studs. I am ending them in the middle of the cavity, then using a 4"-6" piece of plywood to make the joint. 

Just using this install make 100% easier and faster.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

how many have cracked since you've done this?

how long does it take you in an entire house to cut 200 peices?


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

Whitey97 said:


> how many have cracked since you've done this?
> 
> how long does it take you in an entire house to cut 200 peices?



I havent had any cracks at all ..... Cut what ? 

I got the idea from Butttaper, I didnt go for there tool but incorporated there method. 

http://www.butttaper.com/advantage.htm

Utilizing the ButtTaper system with the backer board in between the studs has the following advantages over the current conventional method of 2-1/16" tape over a butt joint on a wooden or steel stud: 

  The backer board contains only 4 to 5% moisture while a wooden stud/joist contains 18 to 19%. Practically, no wood shrinkage to damage the butt joint. 
  Since the butt joint is off the stud/joist, it is not subjected to any direct forces. 
  The drywall is bonded to a minimum 4" backer board; a greater area of the drywall is bonded than on the 1-1/2" wooden stud/joist rendering a stronger installation as tested by the National Association of Home Builders at their Research Center. The ButtTaper system can withstand about 3,000 pounds more force in compression and 400 pounds more in tension than the traditional method on a stud. Please read the complete NAHB Test Report on this website. 
  The butt joint boards have a clean undamaged edge. The edge has not been weakened by screws or nails allowing for a stronger more secure installation. The end paper is tapered down and is not loose; no need to cut a ‘V’ edge notch in the butt joint to prevent ridging. 
  The butt boards are secured on a flat plane. 
  Setting compounds can be economically used on all three finishing coats rendering a faster finishing process. Setting compounds such as Easy-Sand and DuraBond are not affected by humidity and moisture, one of the principal causes of drywall failure, and offer a stronger bond than joint compounds. 
  Tremendous savings in labor and material. The creation of the tapered edge and the finishing process requires less than 2 minutes with very little compound. Faster for the sheetrockers; 2" on each side to properly screw the butt boards. 
  No callbacks, and gains a competitive edge with a superior monolithic drywall finish resulting in a far superior appearance of the project; no crown or chair molding curvature. Window, door and base board casing is straight. 
   Eliminates any butt joint debates with your customers, general contractors and painters. A more aesthetic drywall finish sure to please yourself and everyone else. 
  Allows for the usage of glossy paints without the fear of shadowing and eliminates the necessity for texturing.


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## A+ Texture LLC (Jan 10, 2009)

You guys need to check out these threads over at contractortalk.com.
http://www.contractortalk.com/f49/butt-shims-55172/ and 
http://www.contractortalk.com/f49/flat-but-joints-backer-boards-48938/
The second one especially, they go into detail on how to make good backer boards.


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

I have found that just putting the butt in the middle of the cavity gives sufficient recess.

The problem is getting contractors to understand. I just went and looked at this job. Basement flooded gut and replace. The contractor wants to run the board vertically ..... 9'2" hieght. I suggested to 54" boards run on the flat and float the butt seams in the middle of the cavity..... WELL you should have heard the ignorant ass. Crap like that drives me CRAZY!


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Stormy, seems you have a lot a Butt Joint problems. I agree in theory about Breaking between studs/joists with buttboard, especially if has a 1/16 or 1/8 strip at the edge (to concave the joint). We don't really have any troubles by breaking on the framing, though. Once in while one has to be floated further than usual, but no biggie. But running all three coats with setting type and sanded walls will cause you the more problems.

As for glossy paints and shadowing, nothing will cure that except Level 5.


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Stormy, seems you have a lot a Butt Joint problems. I agree in theory about Breaking between studs/joists with buttboard, especially if has a 1/16 or 1/8 strip at the edge (to concave the joint). We don't really have any troubles by breaking on the framing, though. Once in while one has to be floated further than usual, but no biggie. But running all three coats with setting type and sanded walls will cause you the more problems.
> 
> As for glossy paints and shadowing, nothing will cure that except Level 5.


Why does it seem I have a lot of problems? It is a faster and better method both in hanging and finishing. 

I hang, finish and paint most of my jobs ..... Most of my paint finish has been eggshell ..... Level 4 finish with no shows ...... 

My method is making the seam using the backer board leaving 1/4 gap. Cut edges on 45, pre fill with Durabond then finish it as a regular seam, I only use durabond to fill. After the first one I was hooked. I do a lot of redo's older buildings framed up with rough cut timbers. 

Hey you want to stick your head in the sand and play the "Old School" game it's on you ...... Someone will love to kick you in the ass.


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## A+ Texture LLC (Jan 10, 2009)

Stormy, I don't see how your ending up with a recessed joint on a flat piece of plywood, unless your cutting at a 45 or notching it. Please elaborate. The backer boards in the above threads and the type you can buy all have a recess so it sucks the board back making a recess similar to a flat. Supposedly you can run your box over them just like a flat. Also, you seem a little argumentative for someone just offering their two cents. You know that is the point of these forums. Were not here to argue, were here to listen, learn and help.


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

A+ Texture LLC said:


> Stormy, I don't see how your ending up with a recessed joint on a flat piece of plywood, unless your cutting at a 45 or notching it. Please elaborate. The backer boards in the above threads and the type you can buy all have a recess so it sucks the board back making a recess similar to a flat. Supposedly you can run your box over them just like a flat. Also, you seem a little argumentative for someone just offering their two cents. You know that is the point of these forums. Were not here to argue, were here to listen, learn and help.


I think it is the fact that I am ending the sheet in the middle of the cavity, it seem to leave a little hollow in seam it self. Put a 4' level across it and it is just the perfect little depression you want. 

As far as being a little argumentative .......




> [email protected] wrote:
> Stormy, seems you have a lot a Butt Joint problems.


I have been in this game a long time boys. The reason I still have work coming in is because of my quality. So when a cyber professional takes a swipe ... I will swipe back. I have lurked on this site for a while and know who the know it all's are.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Kick my ass? Head in the sand? Kinda nervy for 7 time poster.

Yes, it sounds like you have had butt joints crack and flash. My point is, I don't. Unless there is a movement issue, virtually never have a butt joint crack. And flashing is only an issue when some dumbass tries to put on a glossier paint than a level 4 is spec'd for.

Someone with so many years in the biz would probably know that is Definitions for Levels fo Finish call a Level 4 suitable for flat paints only. Anything with more sheen is recommended to get a Level 5. My finish will take an eggshell most of the time, but I still skim critical light walls in those cases.

Butt boards work, I suppose, but the added cost in this "competitive market" makes them cost prohibitive IMO. We can agree to disagree. Using butt boards cannot be faster for the hangers, to install something extra takes time. Most I've seen are made of pressed composite wood and are much harder to get the screw to set properly and basically an pain in the a$$.

Respectfully,
Your know-it-all cyber professional


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Kick my ass? Head in the sand? Kinda nervy for 7 time poster.


Oh so it is post count that matters and not real experience in the trade ? 



> Yes, it sounds like you have had butt joints crack and flash. My point is, I don't. Unless there is a movement issue, virtually never have a butt joint crack.


Please show me anywhere in my posts that I have alluded to having a problem with butts...... They are time consuming and in this "competitive" market I think a 12" seam is better then a 24" with no roll. 



> And flashing is only an issue when some dumbass tries to put on a glossier paint than a level 4 is spec'd for. Someone with so many years in the biz would probably know that is Definitions for Levels fo Finish call a Level 4 suitable for flat paints only. Anything with more sheen is recommended to get a Level 5. My finish will take an eggshell most of the time, but I still skim critical light walls in those cases.


That is the way I have been doing it for 20 plus years .... I have never done a textured job. 



> Butt boards work, I suppose, but the added cost in this "competitive market" makes them cost prohibitive IMO. We can agree to disagree. Using butt boards cannot be faster for the hangers, to install something extra takes time. Most I've seen are made of pressed composite wood and are much harder to get the screw to set properly and basically an pain in the a$$.
> 
> 
> Respectfully,
> Your know-it-all cyber professional


It is faster to hang because there is no exact cutting except for the last board in the run. Putt it up ...screw it up ....cut in place to where you want it....pre cut backer board and the next board is easier to place because of the expanded surface area. The little things ......


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Stormy_Ny said:


> I think I have finally solved my problems with butt joints. At least when I am hanging. I no longer am butting them on the studs. I am ending them in the middle of the cavity, then using a 4"-6" piece of plywood to make the joint.
> 
> Just using this install make 100% easier and faster.


There's one place...

And in the next post, the description of the benefits led me to believe you had lots of issues, but I see now that post is probably buttbackers ad. So excuse me.

And yes you save one measurement and cut on the first sheet, but still adding an additional piece. So the time saved on the hanging, IMO, is a wash at best.

If your market isn't prone to texture and all the work is sanded slick, then buttboards are probably a good choice for you. If you've lurked the site, then you've seen how much different things are in different markets.

And no, post count may not make me an expert. But what does is having 20+ years in the trade. And if anybody thinks that they "know it all", they'll pretty soon found out they don't. I still learn new methods, some right here on this site. You also bump into an a$$hole every now and again. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers and good luck.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

Can't we all just get along?


BTW, am I one of the "cyber know-it-alls"


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> There's one place...
> 
> And in the next post, the description of the benefits led me to believe you had lots of issues, but I see now that post is probably buttbackers ad. So excuse me.
> 
> ...


No worries Brother..... we wouldn't be here if we didnt give a crap right ?


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## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

Whitey97 said:


> Can't we all just get along?
> 
> 
> BTW, am I one of the "cyber know-it-alls"



You just might be #1 ******


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

:stupid:



I'm not a cyber know-it-all, I am a know it all!
Mainly because I've been there, done that.....


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

Whitey97 said:


> :stupid:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

Exactly!


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## MuDD (Jul 6, 2009)

I don't like to use Fast Setting compounds unless its absolutly nessesary, This mud only sets quickly does not dry takes same amount of time to dry as regular mud, so coating with regular mud on top of this gives a greater chance for orange peel, and besides the stuff is crap to work with you do not get the same out come, harder to sand and the stuff is hard on the eyes, i know from experiece, i only use regular mud for all coats, i preffer to do butt joints by hand because it doesn't take me that lone and thats how i get the nicest outcome and for me the final outcome is better than being done fast.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

*Manitoba seems to know*

For paint smooth
1) Split the butts with a 10" box set on "0" 
2) Run down the center of the butts with a 12" box set on "1"
3) Cross off the ends of the butts by hand
4) Give the butts a finnish coat by hand

I was trained by a couple of guys from Manitoba and learned the same procedure which seems to work well.


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

four coats to finish a but joint !? 2 coats by hand with a flat flared out 40" finish is the way to go if ya have deadlines to meet and like to make time and money at work.


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## eddie (Sep 15, 2009)

where I work in Missouri, we tape, first coat each side of tape with a 7" box, second coat each side with a 10" box, then check the butt joint with a 12" knife to determine how the joint should be run by hand. Hopefully down the middle it the studs had all been crowned correctly.


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## Rantaper13 (Sep 24, 2009)

Hey everyone, ive only been using the boxes for 2 years and i was just wondering how you guys finish your bevel to butt joints. it just seems like what im doing the tape always shows. Also, i use the corner box and im having the same problem it seems like in some spots its fine but the tape still shows to much for my liking? any tips?


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

lots of tips, make a thread on it, and I'm sure you'll get lots of responses. I don't want to whore up this thread with it, but I'll tell you I've got about 10 different ideas right off the top of my head. None of this is brain surgery. If you're not doing something right, it won't turn out, and you have to spend more time on it.


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## laforneyjoe (Jun 22, 2012)

*but joint*

tape, run both sides of tape with 8 FB, run with 12" box center, H and T. every butt is deferent.


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## wallrocker (Mar 12, 2012)

Whitey97 said:


> Come on now. With over 400 posts I'm sure there's been more than just this one time!
> 
> 
> Honestly I think I might buy 1 bag of "hot mud" per pallet of lite blue.
> I tape 1/2 and 1/2 with all purpose (or close to it) and do the rest with lite blue.


Lite blue is the bomb we just bust each side with 10 box and coat center with 12 knife by hand then pisscoat by hand I check them with my 12 rebust if needed usually in any given house only 4 or 5 tops those boxes put the mud out been doing it that way for years we only texture with topping to damn heavy


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## icerock drywall (Nov 13, 2010)

Not all butts are the same...


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

icerock drywall said:


> Not all butts are the same...


But.....

If the hangers did their jobs right, they should be similar enough!:yes:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

fr8train said:


> But.....
> 
> If the FRAMERS did their jobs right, they should be similar enough!:yes:


I edited your post for you


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Now be honest. You could edit that word all the way back to the tree itself. But if you make it a point not to put a butt on the crappiest stud or joist to be found. They're really not that big a deal.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

fr8train said:


> Now be honest. You could edit that word all the way back to the tree itself. But if you make it a point not to put a butt on the crappiest stud or joist to be found. They're really not that big a deal.


I AM being honest! 

Sure, as a hanger you want to do what's right, but you're not always able to skip bad lumber, even if you want to. (unless you're going to modify studs........which will happen on my jobs....IF the budget allows it). Sometimes it's a sheet count issue too. There are lots of reasons why hanging doesn't always turn out the way the taper would like it to.

I have a finisher friend who found himself having to do some hanging when the market tanked. It wasn't long before he came up to me and said "You know, I used to get so pissed at the hangers when they did such-and-such or blah-blah-blah......now I totally understand why things sometimes turned out the way they did". 

Sometimes, a hanger just needs to hang the ****ing ****, and can't take time to lay a straight-edge on the walls. Hell........I do it all the time, but I'm pretty tight with the finisher:whistling2:


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## harvey randall (Nov 23, 2010)

*hanging*

on new-i hang with a chain saw-mcculoch- and i eye ball the bad and have my way with the joint--------------------just my way of saying im fixing the fn mess


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## icerock drywall (Nov 13, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> I edited your post for you


I wanted to say butt heads:whistling2:


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