# How to teach a Journeyman, when they're not one



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Something I've run into too often, that I'm wondering if there's an answer for, so I don't have to keep dealing with it. The other day they hired a taper claiming to be a journeyman, who started on a job I was doing. "Got you a journeyman to come help", the field supervisor said. "We'll see", I said. "I've heard that one too many times before."

Nice enough guy. But by the work he was doing, not a journeyman. Just someone with a lot of years in. As a friend likes to say, 20 years experience, with 6 months knowledge.

So how do you instruct someone like that, in a way that they'll take it? Is it possible? Anyone figured out a magic formula?


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Tell him to sign onto to Drywall Talk :jester:
We'll take care of the rest! :thumbsup:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

When talking to him, he's a journeyman in his mind, PT. Don't know how DWT would really change that, even if I could convince him he might learn something useful enough here.

I'm thinking you'd have to approach it by addressing issues right on a job, in a way he'd accept.

But maybe there is a different, better way?


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

JustMe said:


> When talking to him, he's a journeyman in his mind, PT. Don't know how DWT would really change that, even if I could convince him he might learn something useful enough here.
> 
> I'm thinking you'd have to approach it by addressing issues right on a job, in a way he'd accept.
> 
> But maybe there is a different, better way?


Well what's he doing?
Why is he in your eyes not a journeyman?
What's he doing wrong? Or maybe not wrong, but could be better?


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## sdrdrywall (Sep 4, 2010)

The old saying can't teach an old dog new tricks never rings so true as with tapers. Tell a taper he's doing it wrong you're in for a bad attitude. 2 ways to handle it head on show him what he's doing wrong and make him correct it or ignore. It and fix it yourself.


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

sdrdrywall said:


> The old saying can't teach an old dog new tricks never rings so true as with tapers. Tell a taper he's doing it wrong you're in for a bad attitude. 2 ways to handle it head on show him what he's doing wrong and make him correct it or ignore. It and fix it yourself.


Or....or!
Give me his e-mail address and I'll email him the link to this thread! :jester:


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

can he run the sanding pole?


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Justme, did you ever think maybe you're doing it wrong?:jester:
Joking aside, what kind of mess is he making?


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

It was an existing building, with fairly major renos. He was kept pretty busy mostly beading and fast masking around newly installed windows, as well as coating/patching some exterior walls. Problems:

- Getting too much paper bubbling on paper/metal bead for mine and another taper's liking, when it was coated out - I turned the job over to the other taper when he showed up, as he likes to run things and I didn't care, since he pretty much knows what he's doing, and right now I'm in physio rehab as well for part of the day. I figured he really should've been the one to address things, but he didn't. I've tried to take on the role more of a winger for the last while, which is all I really want to be right now, till things heal a little better. Just point me to the screws. 
- The fill in some bead he'd put on wasn't enough. It was dished.
- Didn't straighten out some 'dog legs' with mud well enough in some places, where old walls tied into new. His work on a couple wasn't that good.

On coating some interior bead, wasn't getting a consistent thickness on his 1st coat, which showed when it was drying. Wasn't Bad, but could've been better.

As for the sanding, a couple others were sanding most everything. But where he did sand, which mostly was his work, he overdid it a bit at times.


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## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

JustMe said:


> It was an existing building, with fairly major renos. He was kept pretty busy mostly beading and fast masking around newly installed windows, as well as coating/patching some exterior walls. Problems:
> 
> - Getting too much paper bubbling on paper/metal bead for mine and another taper's liking, when it was coated out - I turned the job over to the other taper when he showed up, as he likes to run things and I didn't care, since he pretty much knows what he's doing, and right now I'm in physio rehab as well for part of the day. I figured he really should've been the one to address things, but he didn't. I've tried to take on the role more of a winger for the last while, which is all I really want to be right now, till things heal a little better. Just point me to the screws.
> - The fill in some bead he'd put on wasn't enough. It was dished.
> ...


The first mistake you made is turniung the job over to him. The more experienced/fussier taper should take the lead. Show him what he's doing wrong, i always like the saying "why don't you try it this way" because obviously his way sucks. It's all about giving him options, make one option a bad choice. Just to be honest with you no matter what the situation dont let anyone run your chit


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

DLSdrywall said:


> The first mistake you made is turniung the job over to him. The more experienced/fussier taper should take the lead. Show him what he's doing wrong, i always like the saying "why don't you try it this way" because obviously his way sucks. It's all about giving him options, make one option a bad choice. Just to be honest with you no matter what the situation dont let anyone run your chit


I explained things a little too vaguely it seems. Sorry about that. There was another taper (finisher) who showed up after as well, who I turned things over to, and who I meant when I said "and another taper's liking", concerning bubbling bead paper.

I think one of the key big problems could be that a lot of these guys work for outfits, &/or with others, who aren't really finishers. They're more about being mudders, maybe tapers. But not finishers.

They get it into their heads that the quality they've been turning out is 'journeyman' level. Which in some areas, with some companies, it passes as being.

I wonder if one can be a 'journeyman mudder', and a 'journeyman taper', keeping those as being separate from 'journeyman finisher'.

Maybe a new term to better differentiate from those 1st 2 is needed? 'Journeyman finisher' might not be enough(?) Unless maybe one explains the difference to others well enough(?)


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

There are Journeymen that give a chit and Journeymen that dont


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

JustMe said:


> It was an existing building, with fairly major renos. He was kept pretty busy mostly beading and fast masking around newly installed windows, as well as coating/patching some exterior walls. Problems:
> 
> - Getting too much paper bubbling on paper/metal bead for mine and another taper's liking, when it was coated out - I turned the job over to the other taper when he showed up, as he likes to run things and I didn't care, since he pretty much knows what he's doing, and right now I'm in physio rehab as well for part of the day. I figured he really should've been the one to address things, but he didn't. I've tried to take on the role more of a winger for the last while, which is all I really want to be right now, till things heal a little better. Just point me to the screws.
> - The fill in some bead he'd put on wasn't enough. It was dished.
> ...


 Who's cutting the check? That's the bottom line! I'll run your angles with play dough if that's what you want! 


Set the boy aside..Tell him this is how we want it done...If he has a problem that ....I'm most positive there's another taper behinde him ready to run.. Am I wrong?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

justme said:


> i explained things a little too vaguely it seems. Sorry about that. There was another taper who showed up after as well, who i turned things over to, and who i meant when i said "and another taper's liking", concerning bubbling bead paper.
> 
> I think one of the key big problems could be that a lot of these guys work for outfits, &/or with others, who aren't really finishers. They're more about being mudders, maybe tapers. But not finishers.
> 
> ...


 jack leg


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

JustMe said:


> I explained things a little too vaguely it seems. Sorry about that. There was another taper who showed up after as well, who I turned things over to, and who I meant when I said "and another taper's liking", concerning bubbling bead paper.
> 
> I think one of the key big problems could be that a lot of these guys work for outfits, &/or with others, who aren't really finishers. They're more about being mudders, maybe tapers. but not finishers.
> 
> ...


I find all those titles messed up.
If you're a taper you should do it all! Start to finish.

This one time a bigger commercial company hired my company to do this big commercial job..this was back when I first opened my doors, I had 13 employees at the time so we we're getting pretty big. Anyways, I couldn't keep up with the speed they wanted, so they asked if I wouldn't mind if they brought on more help at their expense, not mine. So I said sure! Bring it on. 
So they called this other taping outfit around here who they would usually hire to do their work but I guess they decided to go with the little guy for this job because I was cheaper. So they called this other company up and asked if they could send over two of their tapers to help out for two days so I could catch up. So anyways, these two guys show up, and now they're working for me, which was awkward enough because I had just turned 20 years old and these guys we're in their mid 40's. Didn't much like working for a teenager. lol.

So I introduced myself, blah blah, thanks for coming out and helping us out, so on and so on. I proceeded to tell them that more or less the entire building was taped except for one area, and that they should focus on that area to help us get ahead.
Their reply? "Oh, sorry..we don't tape. We just coat."
I started laughing! I was like "Bahaha! *tap on the shoulder* Good one. You guys are funny.."
Then the other guy was like "no, seriously, we don't tape...we just coat" and I was like ":blink:!?"

So I was like "okay....i'll pull a few of my guys off from the other section and they can do the tape while you guys coat."
So they pulled out their gigantic plows of trowels and went to town.
Using more mud than I had ever seen on walls! Flats that were 2ft wide, and still needed a skim after! Loading up beads on a first coat so thick I thought they we're going to try to sand it smooth the next day..

At the end of the day I just said "Well....I think we're pretty well caught up now...:whistling2: We won't need you to come in tomorrow..."

And I wasn't even paying them! They we're free and I still sent them away..
If you're a taper, you should know how to do everything!
Not just tape, or just coat, or just apply beads or just finish.
Do it all!


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

moore said:


> Set the boy aside..Tell him this is how we want it done...If he has a problem that ....I'm most positive there's another taper behinde him ready to run.. Am I wrong?


The 'boy' isn't quite that. He's thinking to retire this year, he said.

There are others behind him. But they've seemed pretty much the same lately. The last one before him, a new hire that I got to work with week before last, said he had 4 years housing experience. I had to show him how to coat screws properly.

I am getting a bit tired of it. Thinking I might just go on my own yet, maybe sometime in the near future. But maybe stay on piece work some for the company as well, like once mentioned when I'd once thought to leave(?)


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

precisiontaping said:


> i find all those titles messed up.
> If you're a taper you should do it all! Start to finish.
> 
> This one time a bigger commercial company hired my company to do this big commercial job..this was back when i first opened my doors, i had 13 employees at the time so we we're getting pretty big. Anyways, i couldn't keep up with the speed they wanted, so they asked if i wouldn't mind if they brought on more help at their expense, not mine. So i said sure! Bring it on.
> ...


 thank's:d


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Here I thought this thread was going to be about Moose boy









One boss, one system, thats all you can do.

I found with drywall, it was more easy to dictate who was in charge, the guy doing all the cutting was. Plus there is not too many different ways of hanging rock.

With taping though, just way too many different styles, systems and tools to be used. With shacks, not too hard to figure out who is in charge, the guy who got the job. Commercial work, where they sometimes just want to toss man power at something, someone has to be in charge of the cluster fruck, sounds like it's not your job to do that justme....

But if your a big mouth obnoxious prick like me in the real world, you take charge and remind him he's the newb on this crew. it's work, not beers at a bar. How you tell him is your choice, you can be nice about it, and explain things... Or be a prick like I would be, and tell him he sucks,,,,, unless he is bigger than me:whistling2:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

PrecisionTaping said:


> I find all those titles messed up.
> If you're a taper you should do it all! Start to finish............. If you're a taper, you should know how to do everything!
> Not just tape, or just coat, or just apply beads or just finish.
> Do it all!


I was meaning the level of work done, PT, not trying to segment it. 

Example:

- Mudders: You'd maybe put into garages, on warehouse walls that don't need to be pretty
- Tapers: Do okay enough work usually.
- Finishers: For if you want to make sure it really gets done right. Best for higher end stuff.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

JustMe said:


> The 'boy' isn't quite that. He's thinking to retire this year, he said.
> 
> There are others behind him. But they've seemed pretty much the same lately. The last one before him, a new hire that I got to work with week before last, said he had 4 years housing experience. I had to show him how to coat screws properly.
> 
> I am getting a bit tired of it. Thinking I might just go on my own yet, maybe sometime in the near future. But maybe stay on piece work some for the company as well, like once mentioned when I'd once thought to leave(?)


 OH!! those older guys are the worse!
They think they know everything!


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

JustMe said:


> I was meaning the level of work done, PT, not trying to segment it.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


ya, but that's exactly my point...
There shouldn't be all those categories.
It should just be "Tapers"
Who you can put anywhere to do anything.
Because they know how.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> Here I thought this thread was going to be about Moose boy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you don't think I can't be obnoxious in the real world, ask the flooring guy who I had a run in with yesterday on the job. At 1st he was Mr. "I'm in a bad mood" he was telling me. I guess to scare me off or something.
Then later I heard him whining to the GC's job runner when he showed up. Something about the drywallers. 

I could take charge. But I'm tired of the cluster frucks as you call them, I guess. It just doesn't seem worth it anymore. I've given out some thoughts as to how it could maybe be helped. But......

I told them who I want to work with. The ones I know who make sense. But we're usually spread pretty thin among the jobs.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

PrecisionTaping said:


> ya, but that's exactly my point...
> There shouldn't be all those categories.
> It should just be "Tapers"
> Who you can put anywhere to do anything.
> Because they know how.


In a perfect world, there shouldn't be all those categories. But there is. At least among those I've worked with.



moore said:


> OH!! those older guys are the worse!
> They think they know everything!


Yeah. And some even know what they don't know.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

moore said:


> OH!! those older guys are the worse!
> They think they know everything!


We do know everything:yes:

Whats worse is the young buck that thinks he knows everything:whistling2:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> We do know everything:yes:


Like I said, some even know what they don't know. :yes:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

JustMe said:


> If you don't think I can't be obnoxious in the real world, ask the flooring guy who I had a run in with yesterday on the job. At 1st he was Mr. "I'm in a bad mood" he was telling me. I guess to scare me off or something.
> Then later I heard him whining to the GC's job runner when he showed up. Something about the drywallers.
> 
> I could take charge. But I'm tired of the cluster frucks as you call them, I guess. It just doesn't seem worth it anymore. I've given out some thoughts as to how it could maybe be helped. But......
> ...


Those type of jobs can become too stressful that your on justme, it's one of the reasons I choose to do shacks now, more peaceful:yes:

Maybe you can pick up some type of drug habit, like most tapers do, to deal with the stress:jester:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

JustMe said:


> Like I said, some even know what they don't know. :yes:


Your a tricky bastard ...I never know how to take you!:thumbup:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Whats worse is the young buck that thinks he knows everything:whistling2:


What the hell did I do now!?


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

moore said:


> Your a tricky bastard ...I never know how to take you!:thumbup:


That's my drug - messing with other, younger minds. 

But to help you out some, when I say things like "some even know what they don't know", there's usually something behind it. Example, the 1st paragraph from an online profile about a personality type that I've always tested out as being:

_To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very specific rather than a general nature; its source lies in the specialized knowledge systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. When it comes to their own areas of expertise -- and INTJs can have several -- they will be able to tell you almost immediately whether or not they can help you, and if so, how. INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more importantly, they know what they *don't* know._


The bolded "don't" is their bolding, not mine.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

JustMe said:


> That's my drug - messing with other, younger minds.
> 
> But to help you out some, when I say things like "some even know what they don't know", there's usually something behind it. Example, the 1st paragraph from an online profile about a personality type that I've always tested out as being:
> 
> ...


 LOL...I hear ya!


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Those guys always get their own area....and are not expected to produce much. 

I've followed behind the type, at check-out time. 

Super: "What the f*** is taking you guys so long in this one area?"

Us: "Sorry boss, we were just coming in to do the touch-up in here before prime and it's just not up to snuff"

Super: "Well, what the f*** happened?"

Us: "Not sure boss....we were working the other wing and got pulled over here to do final check-out before prime.....remember? These beads are super hollow, these butts are horrendous, they missed grid line by a foot, etc"

Super: "Gawdammit $%#*&@, where the f*** are those two %$*&@#$'ers!"

Us (after he leaves): :laughing::yes:..........poor guys


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> Those guys always get their own area....and are not expected to produce much.
> 
> I've followed behind the type, at check-out time.
> 
> ...


They once asked if I would consider coming up behind and doing checkout on jobs. I was :no: :thumbdown:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> They once asked if I would consider coming up behind and doing checkout on jobs. I was :thumbdown:


My least favorite thing to do is checking out, especially on others' work. Dragging lights around for day after day :shutup::wacko::surrender:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

sdrdrywall said:


> The old saying can't teach an old dog new tricks never rings so true as with tapers. Tell a taper he's doing it wrong you're in for a bad attitude. 2 ways to handle it head on show him what he's doing wrong and make him correct it or ignore. It and fix it yourself.


One way I've had some success with some people - not saying old time tapers, though - is to approach things like "Based on what you know, the way you're doing it is right. Here's a few more things to consider as well: .......". 

That can sometimes keep the ego defense from rearing itself up. Long enough at times that what's said maybe gets through some.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> My least favorite thing to do is checking out, especially on others' work. Dragging lights around for day after day :shutup::wacko::surrender:


That is one of the worst jobs out there, in one way it is one of the easiest jobs to do, but the most boring in the world, watching paint dry is more fun. For some reason you could feel more tired and bagged out doing that job, than any other. I could go on and on about it,,,,,,, but do not do that job justme

All you will see is spots in your eyes when you try to go to sleep at nights:blink:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> That is one of the worst jobs out there, in one way it is one of the easiest jobs to do, but the most boring in the world, watching paint dry is more fun. For some reason you could feel more tired and bagged out doing that job, than any other. I could go on and on about it,,,,,,, but do not do that job justme
> 
> All you will see is spots in your eyes when you try to go to sleep at nights:blink:


The spots could be stress related as well. From another personality type profile:

When under a great deal of stress, the INTJ may become obsessed with mindless repetitive, Sensate activities, such as over-drinking.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

JustMe said:


> The spots could be stress related as well. From another personality type profile:
> 
> When under a great deal of stress, the INTJ may become obsessed with mindless repetitive, Sensate activities, such as over-drinking.


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## CatD7 (Jul 25, 2011)

sdrdrywall said:


> The old saying can't teach an old dog new tricks never rings so true as with tapers. Tell a taper he's doing it wrong you're in for a bad attitude. 2 ways to handle it head on show him what he's doing wrong and make him correct it or ignore. It and fix it yourself.


 

I work by myself and for myself. I like not being in those kinds of positions. BTW, I'm always looking for different methods and materials. That is why I started using a hawk and trowel. It's fun to change up sometimes.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


>


That wasn't me, when I was into drinking a lot. Never drank from small glasses. 

Since I'm into personality types a bit at the moment, and we're discussing checkout, something I came across a bit ago:

If you ever wondered how you or the help missed the bigger spot beside the one you caught while doing checkout, we're supposed to 'micro black out' throughout the day - some people, some personality types, probably more than others.

So when you're scanning the walls with a light, your eyes might just pass over a spot at the moment you unknowingly black out for a moment, so the blemish might not register consciously, and you miss hitting it with some mud.

Just a thought.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

JustMe said:


> That wasn't me, when I was into drinking a lot. Never drank from small glasses.
> 
> Since I'm into personality types a bit at the moment, and we're discussing checkout, something I came across a bit ago:
> 
> ...


Micro black out:blink:,,,,, think that's what we use to call day dreaming:whistling2:

Just hated that job, had to do it once for a few months straight. hearing that a bead got knocked off became a high point in your day,, But there was a recession at the time, so any work you could get ,, was

It did teach you somethings though, like a how not to do things list. But to this day, if someone tries to tell me your going to go back to a job and hunt for little nicks, dings or pin holes, I get all :furious:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> Micro black out:blink:,,,,, think that's what we use to call day dreaming:whistling2:
> 
> Just hated that job, had to do it once for a few months straight. hearing that a bead got knocked off became a high point in your day,, But there was a recession at the time, so any work you could get ,, was
> 
> It did teach you somethings though, like a how not to do things list. But to this day, if someone tries to tell me your going to go back to a job and hunt for little nicks, dings or pin holes, I get all :furious:


'Day dreaming' is too broad a term I think for what can go on. With micro blackouts, the article read as though they occur in a small fraction of a second.

I can see you being afflicted with day dreaming, especially if you were doing checkout steady. Me, too, unless I made a constant effort to stay focused. Even then, it wouldn't work for long periods. Too stressful, too demanding, to the psyche. As you said, even though in one way it's an easy job, _"For some reason you could feel more tired and bagged out doing that job, than any other_."
My answer to that is you're not really 'wired' for it.

The personality type labeled 'ISTJ' - which stands for 'Introverted Sensory Thinking Judgement' - might be about the best one overall for such things, of the 16 personality types it's considered that people fall into.

The girl trainee I had awhile ago was ISTJ. She came to me with about a year of experience, a lot of it doing checkout behind others. It's what I'd put her on if I had other things to do at the same time. She was good at it.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

''The girl trainee I had awhile ago was ISTJ. She came to me with about a year of experience, a lot of it doing checkout behind others. It's what I'd put her on if I had other things to do at the same time. She was good at it. ''


The chick with the fingernails?? She didn't give it up did she?
__________________


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

moore said:


> The chick with the fingernails?? She didn't give it up did she?


That's the one. Last I heard from her, she didn't seem too enthusiastic about taping, except maybe the odd smaller job, with pan and knife.

But you never know. She got a secretarial job once she quit doing side jobs with me - I kept her busy with those, when the company laid her off. Secretarial job = 10.00/hr. Last side job with me of a good size = 23-25.00/hr. 



P.A. ROCKER said:


> Justme, did you ever think maybe you're doing it wrong?:jester:


Yeah. 

It's why I'm always on the lookout for a better tool, a better way of doing something. Until I have 'the ultimate' - the best of 'what could be' - I'm doing it wrong.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

JustMe said:


> 'Day dreaming' is too broad a term I think for what can go on. With micro blackouts, the article read as though they occur in a small fraction of a second.
> 
> I can see you being afflicted with day dreaming, especially if you were doing checkout steady. Me, too, unless I made a constant effort to stay focused. Even then, it wouldn't work for long periods. Too stressful, too demanding, to the psyche. As you said, even though in one way it's an easy job, _"For some reason you could feel more tired and bagged out doing that job, than any other_."
> My answer to that is you're not really 'wired' for it.
> ...


16 personality types









So I would land under a good type personality:thumbup:..... right justme:blink:

Right ??


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> 16 personality types
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, I like you. So I guess so.


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## Whosnxt1776 (Oct 4, 2012)

My Grandfather is kinda of like that. He was a finisher since the 60s. He trianed my father who trained me. Now instead of pissing of the old guy my dad and I just touch up his work as we go. He used to do perfect work but the age his eyes are bad and his arm gets tired. He works one or two days a week to stay active. If I told him his bead had to many fish eyes and so on he would get pissed and it would hurt him. So I just touch it up. If he wasnt my Grandfather it would be different though...I have been finishing a decade this year, if I stick around long enough Ill have to do the same with my dad. But I plan on getting out of finishing before 30, got two years....


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## Philma Crevices (Jan 28, 2012)

Honestly, over the years I've grown real impatient with new hires on my jobs. Every company has a different system, and different expectations, so I've come to the conclusion to expect the worst till proven otherwise :thumbup: It saves alot of frustration. 

Keep a close eye on em till youre sure they perform to your standard, offer tips on how you like things ran, and the reason it's more productive. If they can't get with the program, let it be known. Better to be upfront so they know they risk being let go than them being in the dark then no work the next day. Either they'll pick it up, or not, their choice to stay employed. It's a rough trade, rough times, gotta roll with the punches and adapt.

On a lighter note, Did a couple thousand sheet school this summer, level 5 semigloss. Half my crew were new hires or guys we only use only when we are buried (crap finishers/tapers) Job came out GREAT
I probably came off as a **** most days looking behind peoples work, pointing out unacceptable flaws, but it's my name on the line and if my jobs come out losers, my job on the line as well.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

Philma Crevices said:


> Honestly, over the years I've grown real impatient with new hires on my jobs. Every company has a different system, and different expectations, so I've come to the conclusion to expect the worst till proven otherwise :thumbup: It saves alot of frustration.
> 
> Keep a close eye on em till youre sure they perform to your standard, offer tips on how you like things ran, and the reason it's more productive. If they can't get with the program, let it be known. Better to be upfront so they know they risk being let go than them being in the dark then no work the next day. Either they'll pick it up, or not, their choice to stay employed. It's a rough trade, rough times, gotta roll with the punches and adapt.
> 
> ...


 I feel your pain having to come off as a **** you have to do what you have to to protect what you have built up. You can work for years and never really receive a great compliment but screw up one time whether its you personally or one of your workers and you never hear the end of it and have to kiss someones arse to gain their confidence back. The worst thing that really rifles my temper and chaps my hide is someone that I hired and when they say "Well I use to work for so n so and we did it this way" well the fact of the matter is why are you still not working for them? is it perhaps it was the wrong way? Nothing wrong with new ideas but there is a fine line as to how an employee should go about it with finesse.


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## Philma Crevices (Jan 28, 2012)

silverstilts said:


> I feel your pain having to come off as a **** you have to do what you have to to protect what you have built up. You can work for years and never really receive a great compliment but screw up one time whether its you personally or one of your workers and you never hear the end of it and have to kiss someones arse to gain their confidence back. The worst thing that really rifles my temper and chaps my hide is someone that I hired and when they say "Well I use to work for so n so and we did it this way" well the fact of the matter is why are you still not working for them? is it perhaps it was the wrong way? Nothing wrong with new ideas but there is a fine line as to how an employee should go about it with finesse.


The guy who raised me up told me ( a bit crude but...) Suck one **** and you'll be know as a **** the rest of your life. Compliments are VERY far and few in between, but that one mess up is remembered for years, true with many things in life.


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

JustMe said:


> Nice enough guy. But by the work he was doing, not a journeyman. Just someone with a lot of years in. As a friend likes to say, 20 years experience, with 6 months knowledge.


It's what I call a 20th year apprentice.
Do I know this guy?


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## kylemanley1 (Aug 30, 2012)

if you could work with him personally on a couple jobs from start to finish and just say. "hey man i know you've been in this a while but theres a few small gaps in between the way you're doing things and the way we need them done" and go through the motions with him showing him how you need them done. I know it can be a tender subject but if he's causing problems you or other guys have to fix that's a big problem.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Bevelation said:


> It's what I call a 20th year apprentice.
> Do I know this guy?


It's what I call '20 years time in, with 2 years of experience', as opposed somewhat to my friend's '20 years experience, with 6 months of knowledge'.

If by 'guy' you mean someone who likes to stand around and talk when someone will listen, then maybe you do know him. Or his clone.



kylemanley1 said:


> if you could work with him personally on a couple jobs from start to finish and just say. "hey man i know you've been in this a while but theres a few small gaps in between the way you're doing things and the way we need them done" and go through the motions with him showing him how you need them done. I know it can be a tender subject but if he's causing problems you or other guys have to fix that's a big problem.


Got put working with him again the last few days, as part of a crew, but didn't get around to telling things I probably should've.

Kind of figure that should be handled by such as the guy who was running the taping part of things on that job, though. Or by the field supervisor.

If I had been made to work with him much longer, I would've said some things. Anyway, problem's been solved. He's gone as of yesterday.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

''If by 'guy' you mean someone who likes to stand around and talk when someone will listen, then maybe you do him. Or his clone.'' 

I heard an old timer G/C once YELL at his helper!
''If you cant work and talk at the same time...SHUT UP! '' 

Words to live by if you ask me..:thumbup:

I've spent the last 3 days on a home without even having to hear my own voice ....HEAVEN!!


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

moore said:


> I heard an old timer G/C once YELL at his helper!
> ''If you cant work and talk at the same time...SHUT UP! ''
> 
> Words to live by if you ask me..:thumbup:
> ...


3 days even without radio?

That can be a bit of heaven to me at times. Got lots of thoughts to take its place.

I agree with the old timer. It's what I would've said if the guy had been kept around longer and I'd had to keep putting up with it on jobsites.

But too much talk, especially about things that are of little real interest, can also be draining to some. It's what one of the other tapers said to me - the guy's talking was draining to him. It was to me some as well.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

JustMe said:


> 3 days even without radio?
> 
> That can be a bit of heaven to me at times. Got lots of thoughts to take its place.
> 
> ...


 OH...no! .... tunes pumping ...I like!:thumbup:
Talking to people ...I don't like. Once the job is under way ..and I know what's what ....Go away! I really don't see a need for small talk ..I watched the news this morn...It's gonna rain :blink:
Don't get me wrong.. I'M a very polite fellow ..h/os love me ..but when it comes to the blah blah [holding me up types] I have little patience.


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

moore said:


> OH...no! .... tunes pumping ...I like!:thumbup:
> Talking to people ...I don't like. Once the job is under way ..and I know what's what ....Go away! I really don't see a need for small talk ..I watched the news this morn...It's gonna rain :blink:
> Don't get me wrong.. I'M a very polite fellow ..h/os love me ..but when it comes to the blah blah [holding me up types] I have little patience.


It's almost as if you were describing me.... Head down arse up, I'm here to work not socialize :thumbsup:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

I like those guys who decide to tell you a long and involved story while you're in the middle of a staircase holding something heavy. Something really important, like how this one guy did this one thing at work this one time.....

I don't mind having some intelligent conversation, but when you see me running a loud tool that should also be an indication that perhaps "now" isn't the best time to tell me about how much beer you drank last night.


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## Philma Crevices (Jan 28, 2012)

Kiwiman said:


> It's almost as if you were describing me.... Head down arse up, I'm here to work not socialize :thumbsup:


I've heard that hookers say the same thing :whistling2:

* Where's that sheep humps man pic when you need one


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

Philma Crevices said:


> I've heard that hookers say the same thing :whistling2:
> 
> * *Where's that sheep humps man pic when you need one*


You don't want to see the whole pic :whistling2:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> I like those guys who decide to tell you a long and involved story while you're in the middle of a staircase holding something heavy. Something really important, like how this one guy did this one thing at work this one time.....
> 
> I don't mind having some intelligent conversation, but when you see me running a loud tool that should also be an indication that perhaps "now" isn't the best time to tell me about how much beer you drank last night.


This may come as a surprise to some on this site, but I'm one of those yakky [email protected] that some speak of,,, on the job site:whistling2::whistling2::thumbup:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> This may come as a surprise to some on this site, but I'm one of those yakky [email protected] that some speak of,,, on the job site:whistling2::whistling2::thumbup:


 Yeah 10:00 kelly .By the time you show up I'm half done ....wait ....it's 15 minutes till midnight.... Tomorrow don't count:whistling2:


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> This may come as a surprise to some on this site, but I'm one of those yakky [email protected] that some speak of,,, on the job site:whistling2::whistling2::thumbup:


i don't doubt it one bit. i talk a lot too but i can work at the same time and if i am doing something involving i stop talking and have no problem telling others to stop talking at me.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Saw my 1st Homax banjo today when I was dropping some tools off at a job site. It was being used by the latest journeyman hired in the last couple weeks. He was using it to tape out a bunch of 10' standups.

I was "Are you using a banjo to tape those out, instead of a bazooka?", to which he got into defending its use.
Then from a phone call I later got, it sounds like he got into it a bit with one of our boarders. Or maybe another of our tapers showed up and he got into it with him.
Regardless, he's gone now.

That's 3 new journeymen, gone in the last 3 weeks. This last one was supposed to have sold himself as being God's gift to taping. Wonder what we'll get next. :blink:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

JustMe said:


> That's 3 new journeymen, gone in the last 3 weeks. This last one was supposed to have sold himself as being God's gift to taping. Wonder what we'll get next. :blink:


I'm on my way there:thumbup:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> I'm on my way there:thumbup:


 get out of my way ole man!!!:wheelchair:


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## Mountain Man (Oct 28, 2012)

JustMe said:


> Saw my 1st Homax banjo today when I was dropping some tools off at a job site. It was being used by the latest journeyman hired in the last couple weeks. He was using it to tape out a bunch of 10' standups.
> 
> I was "Are you using a banjo to tape those out, instead of a bazooka?", to which he got into defending its use.
> Then from a phone call I later got, it sounds like he got into it a bit with one of our boarders. Or maybe another of our tapers showed up and he got into it with him.
> ...


What the hell is a banjo? I like hillbilly music as much as the next "taper" but I keep it real and play the zooka!!


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> I'm on my way there:thumbup:


Right on. You can have my job.

I've been stuck doing cut up ugly commercial renos for so long the last while that when I went to use my bazooka today on something that finally had enough size to merit firing it up, the thing was rusted up. Had to take it apart some to get things working.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Mountain Man said:


> What the hell is a banjo? I like hillbilly music as much as the next "taper" but I keep it real and play the zooka!!


'Real' for me is whatever does the job the best. Sometimes a banjo outplays a bazooka. At least in my work. 

There's lots of comments on banjos around the site. Think PT has a video of him running a Homax banjo. Could be a video that he has a link for at the bottom of his posts.


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## Mountain Man (Oct 28, 2012)

JustMe said:


> 'Real' for me is whatever does the job the best. Sometimes a banjo outplays a bazooka. At least in my work.
> 
> There's lots of comments on banjos around the site. Think PT has a video of him running a Homax banjo. Could be a video that he has a link for at the bottom of his posts.


Once back in the day I taped two house with a banjo and it did get the tape on the wall but that's about all I can say. If its more than a couple sheets I got the ol Columbia tube out. We fire tape in the rafters, tape boiler rooms, all with the bazooka. No offense to anyone running a banjo but honestly haven't even seen one in ten years and wouldn't have any use for one. That's just me though, I do things a little different out here in the sticks.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Mountain Man said:


> Once back in the day I taped two house with a banjo and it did get the tape on the wall but that's about all I can say. If its more than a couple sheets I got the ol Columbia tube out. We fire tape in the rafters, tape boiler rooms, all with the bazooka. No offense to anyone running a banjo but honestly haven't even seen one in ten years and wouldn't have any use for one. That's just me though, I do things a little different out here in the sticks.


We had a journeyman a couple years back like that - told me he'd pull out his bazooka for a couple sheets before he'd tape with old technology like a banjo.

Guess he thought the pan and knife he sometimes used to tape with was newer technology(?)

He's gone now. Was too slow.

No offense to bazooka only runners.


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## Mountain Man (Oct 28, 2012)

JustMe said:


> We had a journeyman a couple years back like that - told me he'd pull out his bazooka for a couple sheets before he'd tape with old technology like a banjo.
> 
> Guess he thought the pan and knife he sometimes used to tape with was newer technology(?)
> 
> ...


Through the recession and its share of tough times and slow periods I'm still knocking out spec houses, trophy homes, remodels and commercial work. We work at a fast pace doing production drywall when everybody wanted the job done yesterday. I'm still here and plan on being around for a long time! I paid good money for my Columbia and tape tech tools, I let them do the work and they make me money. Thats what they are there for. If ya think you're fast you're more more than welcome to bring your banjo and come out to colorado for some friendly competition.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mountain Man said:


> Through the recession and its share of tough times and slow periods I'm still knocking out spec houses, trophy homes, remodels and commercial work. We work at a fast pace doing production drywall when everybody wanted the job done yesterday. I'm still here and plan on being around for a long time! I paid good money for my Columbia and tape tech tools, I let them do the work and they make me money. Thats what they are there for. If ya think you're fast you're more more than welcome to bring your banjo and come out to colorado for some friendly competition.


Ill come down with my accordion







, I don't now how to play a banjo:thumbup:
I don't know if I'm mis-reading your post, and you are new here,,,, but Justme is a machine taper.......

Why won't you let him bring his bazooka:blink:
:jester:


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## Mountain Man (Oct 28, 2012)

New here? Ya but not not new in the trade by a long shot!! Talking about drywall and who does what and how they do it and blah blah blah is hurting my head right now. I know what I'm going to be doing in the morning and I know how my finish is gonna turn out and ill most definitely be happy about it and i know ill be making top dollar on it so I guess that's all that matters. Goodnight I'm done talkin shop


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mountain Man said:


> New here? Ya but not not new in the trade by a long shot!! Talking about drywall and who does what and how they do it and blah blah blah is hurting my head right now. I know what I'm going to be doing in the morning and I know how my finish is gonna turn out and ill most definitely be happy about it and i know ill be making top dollar on it so I guess that's all that matters. Goodnight I'm done talkin shop


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## A smooth finish (Mar 19, 2012)

Where at in colorado are you at Mountain Man


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Mountain Man said:


> Through the recession and its share of tough times and slow periods I'm still knocking out spec houses, trophy homes, remodels and commercial work. We work at a fast pace doing production drywall when everybody wanted the job done yesterday. I'm still here and plan on being around for a long time! I paid good money for my Columbia and tape tech tools, I let them do the work and they make me money. Thats what they are there for. If ya think you're fast you're more more than welcome to bring your banjo and come out to colorado for some friendly competition.


Friendly competition, huh. 

I see your sense of humour is somewhat limited compared to most here. I'll keep that in mind for the future.

I didn't say I was fast. I don't consider myself to be fast - there's always someone who's faster out there, including within my company. I said he was too slow.

But for us, at least me anyways - my company's field supervisor has just in the last while started to think there's maybe some use for them in some of what we do - a banjo can speed things up.
Example: You said you use a bazooka for fire taping. We usually have the new hire trainees doing the fire taping. Sending Them up there with a bazooka......
Up till now it's been pan and knife fire taping with them.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> Ill come down with my accordion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My dad plays the accordion, and some banjo. I Had to learn the accordion when I was a kid. Scarred me for life.


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## Mountain Man (Oct 28, 2012)

A smooth finish said:


> Where at in colorado are you at Mountain Man


Smooth.finish I live in mancos colorado. It's a tiny little cow town at the base of the San Juan mountains. Kind of slow but it puts me in the middle of quite a bit of work, always with a bit of a drive. But that's just how it is, you get used to it. Very close to the mountains, lakes, rivers, lots of great hunting and fishing, and just a really nice outdoor experience!


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## Mountain Man (Oct 28, 2012)

JustMe said:


> Friendly competition, huh.
> 
> I see your sense of humour is somewhat limited compared to most here. I'll keep that in mind for the future.
> 
> ...


It's all good man, I ain't mad at ya! Everybody's got their own way and were not a big company just two guys doing drywall. We're pretty set in our ways, it gets the job done well. Every now and then we pick up something new, if there is something out there that gets the job done faster and better and helps put a little more cash in our pocket then I'm willing to listen and learn.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Hey ..Slow poke..:wheelchair: how's that shoulder doing?


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## A smooth finish (Mar 19, 2012)

Mountain Man said:


> Smooth.finish I live in mancos colorado. It's a tiny little cow town at the base of the San Juan mountains. Kind of slow but it puts me in the middle of quite a bit of work, always with a bit of a drive. But that's just how it is, you get used to it. Very close to the mountains, lakes, rivers, lots of great hunting and fishing, and just a really nice outdoor experience!


Awesome Im from Omaha not to far away. I go up to denver alot though.


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Mountain Man said:


> Smooth.finish I live in mancos colorado. It's a tiny little cow town at the base of the San Juan mountains. Kind of slow but it puts me in the middle of quite a bit of work, always with a bit of a drive. But that's just how it is, you get used to it. Very close to the mountains, lakes, rivers, lots of great hunting and fishing, and just a really nice outdoor experience!


that is a good way too describe my area. We have work but sometimes its better too make a drive to avoid all the BS.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> Friendly competition, huh.
> 
> I see your sense of humour is somewhat limited compared to most here. I'll keep that in mind for the future.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, there are definitely some places where a bazooka just doesn't fit (figuratively AND literally). When you're fire-taping above the grid and surrounded by conduit, purlins, duct-work, hanger-wires, etc....a bazooka is a monumentally foolish/slow undertaking. You've got to drop the lift just to get the bazooka on the pump :laughing: Then again, even the banjo can be a pain in the ass in those scenarios... Do they make fleece gloves for true _hand_ taping?:whistling2:


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## bmitch (Dec 10, 2011)

i know i've mentioned this before ,( perlite).in the early 80's iworked alot of commercial, hospital,apartment blocks,all firerating was done with perlite,no tape.i probably have'nt done any firerating since then .is it not used anymore at all?


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Mountain Man said:


> It's all good man, I ain't mad at ya! Everybody's got their own way and were not a big company just two guys doing drywall. We're pretty set in our ways, it gets the job done well. Every now and then we pick up something new, if there is something out there that gets the job done faster and better and helps put a little more cash in our pocket then I'm willing to listen and learn.


:thumbsup:

Best place you can probably be is here, then. It'll definitely help you stay ahead of the curve.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

moore said:


> Hey ..Slow poke..:wheelchair: how's that shoulder doing?


What do you mean, Slow poke. Didn't say I was slow, either. 

I happen to be taping with some pretty good tapers, who I compare myself a lot to, one being maybe the best in the city.
But I don't think he's the fastest out there. At least not anymore. 

Another decently long week with the shoulder. 61 hours in this week, with shoulder about the same as when I started the week. Seems to be getting better.

But don't know how much I care to do that quite so much anymore.

We'll see.

Thanks for asking.


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## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

working with sore joints sucks as long as it's tolerable and not painfull. I recomend rubbing with voltaren and a couple extra strength muscle and joint advil.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mine [both] are killing me...Think it's the weather


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