# GC/Architect spec'd Level 4, now wants Level 5 for free



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

I'm sure this has happened to others out there. Started an Elementary School job in Ft. Scott KS in Oct. Was diligent in confirming that Level 4 was indeed the finish specified. Croosland Const. Co. / Howard + Helmer(architect) sent back Level 4 definition & that's what we provided. Then proceeded to have painters put on an Epoxy Semi-gloss. So we all know what that looks like. 
What I need now is the inspection parameters for Level 4 vs Level 5. Have seen it before -- reads something like " Level 4 shall be inspected at no less than 3(or 5?)' from surface with no critical light *** Level 5 shall be inspected at no less than 18" & under critical light". Anybody have a source for a quote? Did I mention they expect this Level 5 upgrade at no cost? To make matters worse, several family members are parish members.
I have been through this situation before and wound up caving in order to get paid for work already completed. But this time I did my due diligence and warned the GC that they were at their own peril w/ Level 4 and any paint sheen beyond flat. In my view, I provided EXACTLY what was asked of me. Now I've got an architect walking the work and running his hands over the walls, saying he's spec'd Level 4 w/ Epoxy Semi-gloss 25 times and NEVER had a problem. I know that 3 of the last 4 jobs had same issue(according to painter). Thanks in advance for your input.


----------



## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

Damn there was an artice on this in a magazine, the JLC construction issue. Anyways, F- That, do level 4 only if you don't get paid for a 5. Architect probably messed, they always mess up on plans. Every job theres alteast one problem with architects, because they are not construction journeymen, only archs. They haven't played around in the fields. He could of said that he never had a problem before to cover his self up.


----------



## jim (Sep 21, 2008)

go to the bottom of this page and click on level 5, marinerito. then go down to amestaper post and click on that link. Its not exactly what you want , but it might lead you in the right direction.


----------



## FOR THOSE ABOUT (Dec 19, 2008)

Did they inspect the job prior to the paint? If so you should be in the clear with what you agreed to do (Contract?) or did you do the paint as well and if so whether you had it contracted out or not you just did it in order to get paid, we have all been there! Not to offend anyone but this is a school correct, kids are going to be wiping their boogars all over those walls anyways?!


----------



## jim (Sep 21, 2008)

now that i think about it, its usually in the specs, not always printed out, but buried in a spec that is listed as a reference, that once the painter starts on your walls etc. HE is accepting that surface as adequate and if it is NOT acceptable to architect- general- owner etc. then it is the PAINTERS problem!! the solution then is for the PAINTER to solve.. seeing how you have done your job as per specs and warned everyone accordingly. Someone can usually roll like a hamilton prepcoat over your level 4 and then it might be good enough. I agree with Joepro... architects dont know what they are talking about when it comes to drywall painting etc. and they DO lie, or atleast stretch the truth. If you go to the next level, that is a legit change order that needs to be documented and billed for. MAKE SURE YOU GET IT IN WRITING AND HAVE IT SIGNED BY SOMEONE WITH THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE IT LEGAL> otherwise they will lie to you and screw you when it comes time to bill out. If the work that is already painted needs to be fixed, that is the painters problem, because once he paints it, he has legally accepted that surface as adequate. Make sure you get compensated for anything you do to fix the painted walls, except for standard touch up. GOOD LUCK! and dont back down. Unless you did a ****ty level 4, you should win this one


----------



## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

Jim - great details about the specs.

Its true, I remember reading those tiny specs on the plans that everyone likes to skip. Most plans there the same. I know archs don't know anything because I read plans that say - walls are to be taped, spackle, and coat. When do we use terms like spackle? lol.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Still could use a link or reference to the inspection parameters re: Level 4 vs. Level 5. We sprayed some 40 boxes mud yesterday through Mark IV to solve GC's complaint(under duress). We will litigate afterwards, now just need this one done. Even had supplier and manu. rep out yesterday and both astounded that there could be an issue with appearance. Anybody else notice the paper quality decreasing over last few years? I think this compounds the problem. Also supplier says he's hearing this same issue with greater frequency. Also by challenging the spec, now pissed off the architect and he is putting all the work under unreasonable scrutiny(word to the wise).


----------



## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

I agree with Jim if the painter started to paint it is his baby should have been inspected before painting , but i would also go back and show them the original contract along with the definition of a level 4 compared to a level 5 and don't back down , or it may happen again .... it is always something nothing is easy as it should be hang in there...


----------



## ell (Jan 24, 2009)

*Re level 4 VS. Level 5*

Try going to the Gypsum Association They have guide lines set for that reason.


----------



## Cyian (Dec 16, 2008)

Talk to TSIB which is a West Coast technical assocciation (Union). They might have a sister organization in your area that could greatly help.

Find them on www.wwcca.org


----------



## Axecutioner-B (May 3, 2010)

I found this on wikipedia 
"In 1990, four major trade associations, the Association of Wall and Ceiling Industries International (AWCI), the Ceilings and Interior Systems Construction Association (CISCA), the Gypsum Association (GA), and the Painting and Decorating Contractors of America (PDCA), presented the consensus document Levels of *Gypsum Board* Finish. The document was created to "precisely describe" the desired finish of walls and ceilings prior to final decoration. This precise description enables contractors to better understand the requirements of architects and building owners in order to enhance the satisfaction of the client. Specifications that include the Levels of Gypsum Board Finish also promote competitive bidding that allows the bidder to consider the correct labor and materials to finish the wall suitably for its final decoration." [3]
The official document (summarized below) is known as GA-214-96 "Recommended Levels of Gypsum Board Finish".
*[edit] Level 0*

No taping, finishing, or accessories required.
*Usage*: Temporary construction or when final decoration is undetermined.
*[edit] Level 1*

All joints and interior angles shall have tape set in joint compound. Surface shall be free of excess joint compound. Tool marks and ridges are acceptable.
*Usage*: Above false ceilings or other areas that are out of public view where a degree of fire and noise resistance is required.
*[edit] Level 2*

All joints and interior angles shall have tape embedded in joint compound and wiped with a joint knife leaving a thin coating of joint compound over all joints and interior angles. Fastener heads and accessories shall be covered with a coat of joint compound. Surface shall be free of excess joint compound. Tool marks and ridges are acceptable. Joint compound applied over the body of the tape at the time of tape embedment shall be considered a separate coat of joint compound and shall satisfy the conditions of this level.
*Usage*: As a substrate for tile walls and ceilings as well as in garages, warehouses, and other places where appearance is not a primary concern.
*[edit] Level 3*

All joints and interior angles shall have tape embedded in joint compound and one additional coat of joint compound applied over all joints and interior angles. Fastener heads and accessories shall be covered with two separate coats of joint compound. All joint compound shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges. It is recommended that the prepared surface be coated with a drywall primer prior to the application of final finishes.
*Usage*: Suitable base for heavy-medium textured paint or other thick finishes.
*[edit] Level 4*

All joints and interior angles shall have tape embedded in joint compound and two separate coats of joint compound applied over all flat joints and one separate coat of joint compound applied over interior angles. Fastener heads and accessories shall be covered with three separate coats of joint compound. All joint compound shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges. It is recommended that the prepared surface be coated with a drywall primer prior to the application of final finishes.
*Usage*: "Standard" household and office walls. Used with light or non-textured finishes. Not suitable for harsh lighting conditions, which may highlight minor imperfections
*[edit] Level 5*

All joints and interior angles shall have tape embedded in joint compound and two separate coats of joint compound applied over all flat joints and one separate coat of joint compound applied over interior angles. Fastener heads and accessories shall be covered with three separate coats of joint compound. A thin skim coat of joint compound, or a material manufactured especially for this purpose, shall be applied to the entire surface. The surface shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges. It is recommended that the prepared surface be coated with a drywall primer prior to the application of finish paint. The skim coat is a final leveling agent suitable to smooth out a surface to be used under the harshest lighting conditions that may otherwise highlight any imperfections under the finished surface.
*Usage*: Gloss and entirely non-textured surfaces.
________
Art On The Hill Condo


----------



## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

As long as you have the emails or memos passed back and forth, there isn't a thing they can do. Bang 'em for the change order. Put a lien on that sucker if you have to, but don't let 'em push you around. UNLESS you were able to bang out the L5 for close to nothing and u can take the hit, but only if they will ABSOLUTELY give you more work. Just my 2 pennies.


----------



## fenez (Nov 30, 2009)

I tell all my Gc's the same thing.... I follow any and all manufactureres recommendations. Critical lighting and or glossy paints require level 5, I don't care how many times you claim to have seen it done perfect without a skim, If the manufacturere says skim then thats what it should get.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

I guess you guys didn't notice this thread was over a year old. 

And the definitions of levels of finish figured heavily into it. The architect wrote his very own spec that reads like GA level 4 but maintained it could be semi-glossed. All my quoting GA was for naught. This was a strange situation as I didn't have a direct contract with the GC, but with a contractor who did, and was in over his head. Not a story worth retelling. Suffice it to say that the architect and GC fairly sodomized many subs on this job and am glad the screwing I took was a four digit one and not five.

The GCs I continue to do work for understand that I do that paint package( using a colleague with thirty years intrade) or I do not even look at the plan. And we only offer level 5. period.


----------



## Drywall Tycoon (Mar 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I guess you guys didn't notice this thread was over a year old.
> 
> And the definitions of levels of finish figured heavily into it. The architect wrote his very own spec that reads like GA level 4 but maintained it could be semi-glossed. All my quoting GA was for naught. This was a strange situation as I didn't have a direct contract with the GC, but with a contractor who did, and was in over his head. Not a story worth retelling. Suffice it to say that the architect and GC fairly sodomized many subs on this job and am glad the screwing I took was a four digit one and not five.
> 
> The GCs I continue to do work for understand that I do that paint package( using a colleague with thirty years intrade) or I do not even look at the plan. And we only offer level 5. period.



Why not beat a dead horse. I do it all the time. Great retro topic.


----------



## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I guess you guys didn't notice this thread was over a year old.
> 
> And the definitions of levels of finish figured heavily into it. The architect wrote his very own spec that reads like GA level 4 but maintained it could be semi-glossed. All my quoting GA was for naught. This was a strange situation as I didn't have a direct contract with the GC, but with a contractor who did, and was in over his head. Not a story worth retelling. Suffice it to say that the architect and GC fairly sodomized many subs on this job and am glad the screwing I took was a four digit one and not five.
> 
> The GCs I continue to do work for understand that I do that paint package( using a colleague with thirty years intrade) or I do not even look at the plan. And we only offer level 5. period.



Ahhh Darren ....Still talking like you call the shots ..... :whistling2:


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Ahhh Darren ....Still talking like you call the shots ..... 

I still get to call a few: who I work for, who gets my work, where I purchase....

Do I wait two plus months for wages? And then take another job on the same GC's site? No. And Hell no.


----------



## Stormy_Ny (Jun 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Ahhh Darren ....Still talking like you call the shots .....
> 
> I still get to call a few: who I work for, who gets my work, where I purchase....
> 
> Do I wait two plus months for wages? And then take another job on the same GC's site? No. And Hell no.



Problem is ..... How many GC's are left ? I guess things are different where you are .....


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

I dunno. Got a call yesterday, house 80 miles away, already hung. Doesn't know who gave him my number. Said he wanted a level five and was told my crew was the bomb, that everyone else he'd called started balking at the mere mention of level five. 

Right now, am booking work three weeks in advance. First backlog in three years, if you call it that. But now, the suppliers are playing the "F$&@ with my margin" game, even bad-rapping each other. Told the sales force at one supplier to quit behaving like bitches, either meet the price or STFU bout the other guy. Them is 80's tactics and have no respect for that ****.

But GCs here? Mostly skanks, even the big outfits. Gotta blackline their contracts so much, oughta just sign a proposal. We don't work for any of them on "other peoples' money" program. And no, ain't many of the self-funded left. The other choice imperils your own ability to control your cash flow. Word is out. We don't work on speculation.

I make payment schedule the FIRST thing discussed. Not the last. If the turnaround is not sufficiently fast, we have nothing else to discuss. 

And done too with the whole bidding process. GCs who are out of state or just auto email invites, no love. They want a number just to compare? Sure, that'll be $500 per plan. That weeds out the tire kickers.


----------

