# Ceiling Seams



## BazookaJoe

Been having a lot of ceiling seams show lately. These are smooth finished ceilings no texture. The wall seams look perfect. We use boxes, u.s.g. all purpose mud, level 4 finish, and sand with a light. There is proper heat in houses, not sure why they are so noticeable. In order to cut cost the builder has gone to a one coat flat paint system, maybe this is part of the reason? Can anyone provide feedback?


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## Quality1st

*Hard Shoulders on the Rock*

Oh Ya, gotta do a little more work cause they are too cheap to update at some of the drywall factories.


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## d-rock

use more mudd on the cover coat, and use a straight edge to check the joints. Try working by hand.


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## joepro0000

Maybe you put the tape on backwards


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## grapita

Perhaps three things, your seams do not have enough mud underneath, two you coated two fast , or like joeproooo said the tape is backwards.


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## Stormy_Ny

grapita said:


> Perhaps three things, your seams do not have enough mud underneath, two you coated two fast , or like joeproooo said the tape is backwards.



You know ...I have been taping a long time .... I guy I worked with a couple years back showed me that .... backwards tape. It really make a difference.


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## akcajun

i never heard about tape being backwards.. can someone tell me about it plz..


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## Custom Drywall Svc.

BazookaJoe said:


> Been having a lot of ceiling seams show lately. These are smooth finished ceilings no texture. The wall seams look perfect. We use boxes, u.s.g. all purpose mud, level 4 finish, and sand with a light. There is proper heat in houses, not sure why they are so noticeable. In order to cut cost the builder has gone to a one coat flat paint system, maybe this is part of the reason? Can anyone provide feedback?



Make sure there's enough drying time btwn. coats -- can't preach this enough. Especially after the 1st coat.

And for smooth wall, I would do a level 5 finish, period -- even if the builder is not requesting this NOR paying for it. We use Hamilton Prep Coat (5 Gal) buckets, machine-applied followed by a laborer back-rolling it.

Knock on wood, but this hasn't failed me yet -- and as far as Im concerned, is the only way I will perform a level 5 smooth wall.

Your problem is also attributed to the paint. One coat is just pure chicken sh-t by the builder. I would strongly suggest that the issues with ceiling seams is not a drywall effort alone, but a drywall AND paint effort.

Are you doing residential tracts? it sounds like you are.....

To me, prep coat is the key to truly leveling out the wall substrates to ONE even, smooth finish....I know you may have not priced this into your budget and job cost, but like i said, I would do it regardless if the builder is paying for it.

hope this helps.


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## fenez

Let me understand what you just said, you are saying that you skim a job even if they didn't request it or are paying for it? I couldn't have read that correctly.


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## d-rock

what is HAMILTON PREP COAT ???


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## fenez

D rock drywall is a very different animal here in NY than in the rest of the country obviously. They use materials we don't have.


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## Custom Drywall Svc.

fenez said:


> Let me understand what you just said, you are saying that you skim a job even if they didn't request it or are paying for it? I couldn't have read that correctly.


yes I did.

let me clarify...

Assuming, I myself, was involved with this issue with an important account, for example, that i couldnt afford to lose......yes, i would do whatever it takes to prevent ceiling seams GIVEN that it was consistently happening and a solution could not be found by both sides.

It's natural for me, and i would like to think for EVERY good business man to diagnose the problem the best he can. And to me, if the account happens to be important enough, its not about the current situation, or even potential profit lost on the job -- its more importantly due to how it affects future business down the line btwn this customer and myself.

it's just simply good business practice I believe.


Yes, i would do anything it takes to find the problem, regardless if the builder is paying me for the extra step or not. Now, im talking within reasonable means of course.

Ive done this plenty of times for important accounts.

NOW...........bazooka joe may be in an entirely different circumstance of course......not sure how important this account in particular is for him or not. If the specific customer is unreasonable and unwilling to cooperate, then I would act accordingly as well, trust me.

Most of the successful accounts i've had that lasted over the years were all initially forged over how i REACTED to a situation -- not to what I would or wouldn't feel like doing.

Point is....to bazooka joe........if the account is worth it, hell yes do whatever it takes to solve the problem, and hopefully it will pay off ten fold for you down the line.

good luck.


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## Custom Drywall Svc.

d-rock said:


> what is HAMILTON PREP COAT ???


http://www.hamiltonnorthwest.com/FP_HamiltonPrepCoatPlus.asp

"Prep Coat Plus is a ready-mix base coat for drywall that, when applied over a properly finished drywall installation, provides a surface uniform in texture and ready for decoration. Prep Coat Plus is recommended in lieu of a thin skim coat of joint compound. It can be applied by airless spray or roller application, and is also sandable."


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## [email protected]

Did the ceilings "pass" before the builder started shanking on the paint? Before going up to a full out level 5, I'd want an answer on that. 

But if these are sanded ceilings, you cannot possibly expect a level 4 to pass consistently.


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## d-rock

fenez said:


> D rock drywall is a very different animal here in NY than in the rest of the country obviously. They use materials we don't have.


or don't know about. But it's nice to learn about stuff. I think also the finish standards and methods are different. There hasn't been texturing around here since 1985. And I was still watching cartoons back then. ;BTW, I agree with taking care of a good account within reasonable means. Makes perfect sense.


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## Quality1st

*Come On Now"*

If you can see a flat it is either hollow , or you over filled it, or there,s a bulge in the framing. Or your rock is from an older factory that will not spend the millions it takes to retool their planers, ect.. Thats all their is to it. Anymore with all the bad rock out there, i prefill everything and spot the screws, before i start laying tape. By doing this , i have eliminated all the BS caused by the framers,rockers, and material manufacturers. By tightly prefilling my flats , it also helps me achieve near flush after my first coat of finish is dry. Then i apply my second coat by hand and am able to actually split my flat out and fix the hard raised shpulders on the bad board and put everything to a near smoothwall flush after only 2 coats of finish. On my butts after the tape is dry, and while i,m coating the flats, i,ll platform the butts, re. split them down the middle with a ten. After i finish the flats, i then split out my butts. Its a smoothwall trick for the butts, but i do it on everyjob as it really makes a difference . On my metal i glass down the edges for guaranteed no callback, coat with ten, then skim that 2 inchs on the metal that requires the xtra mud, and then finish to perfect flush with a 12. I alaways do my screws 3 times, with the first coat being run horizontally and the other two vertically.I do my touchup while i,m doing my 3rd on the screws. I keep all my edges very tight and because of the work done at the very beginning, everything is super flush and i rub the edges with 150 grit and i have no touchup before i spray my orange peel. If you can see anything on your finish its not flush and requires more work. GIDDYUP:thumbup: If thr builder is only putting a one coat of paint on the work that isn,t exactly helping. After one coat its just primed.


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## joepro0000

Tape can be put backwards, look at the seam in the center of the tape. One side is slightly indented, and thats how it needs to go on. If you put the indented side out, then you will have that crease in the showing, even after you finish painting. You will have to put a slightly thick coat to cover it up. I recently did this mistake, not paying attention with the bazooka.

CUSTOM DRYWALL-

Do you do a level 5 because you worry of alot of touch-ups and bad spots showing? I do agree its good to just skim the entire wall 1 time to avoid alot of touch-ups, but in the end, it all gets beat up by other trades and you will have to go back one final time. I do a level 4, sand real good, and usuaully my touch-ups is very minimal. Most touch ups are from a dent that was in the drywall that we didn't catch, and not from bad sanding or finishing.


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## wnybassman

If they are only using one coat of paint, are they applying it heavier than normal? We saw one time where the homeowner applied a HEAVY coat of paint, in less than optimum drying conditions, and it seemed to get the compound wet enough to the point where it re-shrank a tad more when it dried. This caused more problems on the screws and beads than the flats, but it caused problems there too. Of course it was all our fault. We touched up what we could (for nothing) and we parted ways with neither party being all that happy.


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## Custom Drywall Svc.

joepro0000 said:


> CUSTOM DRYWALL-
> 
> Do you do a level 5 because you worry of alot of touch-ups and bad spots showing? I do agree its good to just skim the entire wall 1 time to avoid alot of touch-ups, but in the end, it all gets beat up by other trades and you will have to go back one final time. I do a level 4, sand real good, and usuaully my touch-ups is very minimal. Most touch ups are from a dent that was in the drywall that we didn't catch, and not from bad sanding or finishing.


Generally, if its a 'smooth wall' or i.e., no texture AT ALL, I'll always do a level 5 using Prep Coat.

Usually of course, we do a good level 4 -- production or custom work (some customs, depending on the customer i'll do things like extra touchups or nail spotting, etc).

The only 'skimming' we do of entire wall/clng surfaces, corner to corner...is that the Hamilton Prep Coat i was talking about earlier.

a lot of times (if its a level 5 / smooth wall finish requested) we'll go back with lights AFTER the prep coat to do spot touch ups by hand for areas that may be too rough for prep coat to cover.

Yes, a lot of trades come in and out, but its never unreasonably bad. Meaning, i always expect a call from the builder 1-2 months after completion to go fix cornerbead dents, marks, etc etc, all for free.

Or, i shouldnt say for free....but i initially bid for this since its nearly 99% expected -- and my customers love this about us. Once I formulate a price, I usually add on top a $3-600 buffer for 'after texture/paint patchwork.'

I've rarely encountered a situation where the walls / clngs looked like a warzone when i came back. its usually at most, a 2 trip deal for my patch guy, with no more than 1-2 hours each time.

again, nothing 'unreasonable.'


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## fenez

Are they at least using a primer and 1 coat of paint?


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## deyodrywall

Is the Hamilton Prep Coat as good as the USG Tuff Hide? We do the same thing but with the Tuffhide, but dont need to backroll.


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## Custom Drywall Svc.

Never used USG tuff hide.......so I can't say. However I think it works in a similar way.

We've just been using hamilton prep coat for so long, and it always delivers the same results, so we never had a need to change products.

As far as back rolling -- I don't think its necessarily 'required,' but we feel it helps. If you don't back roll, and still get the desired results you need -- more power to ya. I have to have an extra $10/hr laborer to do this following behind the applicator, who is also my spray guy.

Speaking of, I might experiment on a small job, without a backroller -- see how that works.


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