# Big drywall Puzzling Problem Needs the Pros input please



## BOBTHEFIXER (Oct 28, 2013)

Hello Pros...

So I am gonna explain in the most details i can.

I finished a house and primed it back on May 2015, by the Lake.

in March 2016 the owner called me to check this problem, so i went with the drywaller to check it out.

When we went there, every joint in the CEILINGS of the main, upper floors, and the basement is Messed Up, Mostly in the basement.

The tape shows, drywall saggy, drywall is loose ! 

you can see the screws under the tape ! and of course the tape.

the funny thing is that the garage is perfectly fine !! 

I right away expected water damage or moisture ! the owner says " no water or moisture occurred" !! 

although the house is all concrete, and Styrofoam insulated, there were some leaks through some windows in the upper floor!

The owner says he started seeing these last month only, and he said that the siding around the house is done also last month ! 

hmmm when i finished it, owner said he expected wavy ceilings somehow and he was to be okay with it but he was amazed how flat is the ceilings, something i was proud of!

oh and his return air doesnt run into pipes or channels , it runs within the whole floor area ( between the ceilings and the joists).

my friend climbed to the attic and found that there is a good amount of snow on top of the insulation ! and the attic is open from sides which can let snow and/or water come inside..

here are some pictures, 

cant wait to see the pros opinions, 

thanks in advance


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

Dude! There is snow in the attic? I have never seen that before. I think the problem is you have snow in the attic. The backside of the drywall is going to absorb every little drop of moisture.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

.....


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## Mudslinger (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> Dude! There is snow in the attic? I have never seen that before. I think the problem is you have snow in the attic. The backside of the drywall is going to absorb every little drop of moisture.


That snow would add a lot of weight also.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

The owner isn't taking care of his house.


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## Mudslinger (Mar 16, 2008)

I've had problems before when the air exchanger wasn't working properly, and the humidity levels in the home were tropical. With the basement ceiling being affected it sounds like a whole house humidity problem. Was it 5/8" or 1/2" on the ceiling? The 1/2" wall and ceiling board will sag with just texture application at times.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

DRYWALL! DRY!!! WALL!!! 


You got a serious moisture issue dude... no no...I take that back!! The idiot that built the home has a serious moisture issue!! :yes: 

If they ask you to fix anything!!! Bust their ass for It!!  Don't even walk through the door till someone agrees to pay you to fix your sheetrock that THEY ****ed up!!


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

WTF ??? The homeowner is a moron or someone turned them into a moron.

Their wallet is about to get A LOT lighter.

Definitely nothing here is your fault Bob.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

mudslingr said:


> WTF ??? The homeowner is a moron or someone turned them into a moron.
> 
> Their wallet is about to get A LOT lighter.
> 
> Definitely nothing here is your fault Bob.



You ever seen snow in the attic like that before?

We get snow down down here to no comparison for what you guys get!! But I have seen a hard blowing snow come through the ridge vents ..But a very little amount! nothing like what bob showed !


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## P.E.I.Taper (May 4, 2015)

Snow in the attic? does that add the the R value or something :whistling2:

soo, to fix it? can the board be rescued?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

P.E.I.Taper said:


> soo, to fix it? can the board be rescued?



My take is .. AT THE OWNERS EXPENSE ! The cheapest way out is to pay Bob to texture the ceilings with a knockdown or skip trowel tex.

It's either that or bust out all those seams and butt joints ..Because I know they peaked !! Better yet!! let all that snow melt in the attic then let the board dry out . Cause fixing the board while it's still wet is a lost cause!! The problem will just repeat itself till that board is dry.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

That place is totally


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

moore said:


> You ever seen snow in the attic like that before?
> 
> We get snow down down here to no comparison for what you guys get!! But I have seen a hard blowing snow come through the ridge vents ..But a very little amount! nothing like what bob showed !


As a matter of fact I have. Even more. Exactly the same reason, probably.

The ridge vents (we call them moor vents) were missing in one and the other was also missing them along with the usual insulation blocks on the ends. No siding, soffit or facia. Strong winds will fill that up quickly.

Both jobs I saw were new houses (camps) that were built over a couple years. Both were gutted completely, re-insulated and had new vapour barrier installed after a solid week of high dry heat. Some lumber was also replaced in both.

Looks like they shut down working for the winter but didn't know enough to seal it up and keep it warm.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

cazna said:


> That place is totally


Wasn't Bobs fault tho. I've seen drywall go to chit before..Many times..Ive seen my old man go back on homes with this same issue and fix them for free just to save face . And that's where him and I differ....If I can find the reason and cause . And explain the why... I Ain't fixing chit fer free!! 


That place can be fixed ..Bob can do It! We know he can!


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

The Eskimo's learnt that years ago.....Thats why they don't drywall their igloo's :blink:


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## BOBTHEFIXER (Oct 28, 2013)

Thanks each and everyone for your input,

I promised the owner , who built the house himself.. to ask the professionals and the experts about their opinions, BUT i believe its moisture/water issue. 

When you push the drywall up it wiggles and its loose ... worst damage "so far" is in the basement!

attic was like this since the house is built, beginning of 2015.

Its one of the most beautiful jobs i finished and primed... sorry Was ..


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Obviously the garage has been kept dry if it has no issues. So he should be able to see what the problem is. There is no way it is your fault Bob, moisture and drywall don't mix.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Run Bob run, and don't look back. If this moron is dumb enough to sue you the picture of snow in the attic is all you need. I would not participate in anymore silliness with this man to avoid further repercussion. He's proof that some should not procreate.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

Stop contributing to this nonsense by detailing for reason to this idiocrasy and ridiculous contributing factors or even attempt to understand why. There is more too this then meets the eye.
I have a question for BOBTHEFIXER 

Other then the problems you have been up against with this job or any others in the past , do you use machine mud ?


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## BOBTHEFIXER (Oct 28, 2013)

Mudstar said:


> Stop contributing to this nonsense by detailing for reason to this idiocrasy and ridiculous contributing factors or even attempt to understand why. There is more too this then meets the eye.
> I have a question for BOBTHEFIXER
> 
> Other then the problems you have been up against with this job or any others in the past , do you use machine mud ?


Nope i didnt have anything like this problem in the past not even 10% of it ! 

And yes machine mud is my fav mud and i use it always!


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

BOBTHEFIXER said:


> Nope i didnt have anything like this problem in the past not even 10% of it !
> 
> And yes machine mud is my fav mud and i use it always!


Machine mud does not cure properly and does not resist moisture once dried and has had issues for many finishers I know in the business. I know you like it because all hand finishers that use a trowel like how it works easily but its too soft and will swells and re-shrinks with any moisture even a year after its been applied. It does not work well for taping ether trust me on this. Ask the pros they know.......


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Machine mud???? We talking all purpose


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

embella plaster said:


> Machine mud???? We talking all purpose


 Its a light mud and had delay curing time compared to other mud. Has a slicker feel to it too.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

BOBTHEFIXER read this
http://www.drywalltalk.com/f9/machine-mud-sucks-3043/


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## BOBTHEFIXER (Oct 28, 2013)

Mudstar said:


> Machine mud does not cure properly and does not resist moisture once dried and has had issues for many finishers I know in the business. I know you like it because all hand finishers that use a trowel like how it works easily but its too soft and will swells and re-shrinks with any moisture even a year after its been applied. It does not work well for taping ether trust me on this. Ask the pros they know.......



All what the pros said doesnt make sense and idiotic and all the big words you said.... and what you just said makes sense ?!!!

No Comment..


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## BOBTHEFIXER (Oct 28, 2013)

Mudstar said:


> BOBTHEFIXER read this
> http://www.drywalltalk.com/f9/machine-mud-sucks-3043/


I did read ... and noticed that you never used it! 

and i always use it and only it !! with my banjo, Boxes, and also by hand ! 

and with all honesty, do you think that because i am using machine mud, the ceiling in that house , 3 floors, 34 ft by 45 ft each, lost bond with the joists and screws and got loose like this ! ALL the ceiling joints !! after 9 months of them being primed !! do you really believe this !?


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

BOBTHEFIXER said:


> I did read ... and noticed that you never used it!
> 
> and i always use it and only it !! with my banjo, Boxes, and also by hand !
> 
> and with all honesty, do you think that because i am using machine mud, the ceiling in that house , 3 floors, 34 ft by 45 ft each, lost bond with the joists and screws and got loose like this ! ALL the ceiling joints !! after 9 months of them being primed !! do you really believe this !?


I never use it yes but have tried it and know others that have used it and have seen the results from it. 

Are you saying the walls are primed only then yes this mud will absorb the moisture from inside the home. 

Is this that same home you did back in March last year and where saying how moist the place was?


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Are we forgetting the big picture........ice in the roof space.......moisture......drywall all dont work well together


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

Put this thread to bed!
It's a no brainer there is snow in the attic!!


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

VANMAN said:


> Put this thread to bed!
> It's a no brainer there is snow in the attic!!


Let look at the facts that this house is in a cold climate and has completely been sealed off from the outside. I guess everyone is forgot about this main fact moisture penetration should not be a factor here and snow is not melted and on the cold side. Also BOBTHEFIXER stated it on every floor of a 3 story house the ceilings have this problem. I'm not sure some of you guys really no the situation. Let me explain that in a concrete building the interior moisture can easily be trapped in a sealed unit and also believe there is a insulation problem here and in the winter a warm house heated with gas and humidifier with a poorly insulated house will cause excessive moisture and the machine mud will soften up and re shrink period. Bob do you have a moisture tester. I guarantee that the humidity is very high in this place and with only having prime on the walls and ceilings any moisture at all will be absorbed into the wall and especially the ceiling. Sorry guys I think your wrong on the snow thing. 

Whats that moisture level in the drywall BOB and whats the humidity levels in the home ?


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

Mudslinger said:


> I've had problems before when the air exchanger wasn't working properly, and the humidity levels in the home were tropical. With the basement ceiling being affected it sounds like a whole house humidity problem. Was it 5/8" or 1/2" on the ceiling? The 1/2" wall and ceiling board will sag with just texture application at times.


Your on the right track


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

BOBTHEFIXER said:


> I did read ... and noticed that you never used it!
> 
> and i always use it and only it !! with my banjo, Boxes, and also by hand !
> 
> and with all honesty, do you think that because i am using machine mud, the ceiling in that house , 3 floors, 34 ft by 45 ft each, lost bond with the joists and screws and got loose like this ! ALL the ceiling joints !! after 9 months of them being primed !! do you really believe this !?


 Yes machine mud will reactivate and re-shrink Yes BOB no paint and just prime is a problem and needs to be sealed with paint.


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## BOBTHEFIXER (Oct 28, 2013)

Thats really wierd mustar! 

This attic has snow from that day only! The owner kept showing me humidity tester and he said its perfect , here i said your problem is not only moisture its water ! 

And when i see the attic still open since the house is built and collected that much snow in that day , what was the situation up there all last summer and all this years winter ( Rain and snow). ? 

Where did all this water collected there for over 9 months go!! 

And its not my first or last by the lake on exactly the same street!!!! 

Im not showing off here but ppl call me coz of my reputation, i finish the closet as a bed room, and my price is the highest. 

Please give me a break.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm not blaming you here bob. I'm saying the combination is not a good mix seriously. That mud does re-shrink if there is too much moisture present and primed walls also do not seal off the drywall enough to prevent moisture penetration. I bet any money if you had a moisture meter and a laser temperature infrared thermometer. You would know exactly what the problem is. the mud doesn't lie its been altered some how and I believe its moisture dude......


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## NFMUDDER (Jan 22, 2008)

Auh...button up the house and turn on the heat


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mudstar said:


> I'm not blaming you here bob. I'm saying the combination is not a good mix seriously. That mud does re-shrink if there is too much moisture present and primed walls also do not seal off the drywall enough to prevent moisture penetration. I bet any money if you had a moisture meter and a laser temperature infrared thermometer. You would know exactly what the problem is. the mud doesn't lie its been altered some how and I believe its moisture dude......



I can tell you this...If he had flat taped that house with hot mud and paper ...This thread wouldn't even exist ! ......:whistling2:


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

All this is very interesting, but it doesn't help Bob. So my question is why is the garage ok?


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## bmitch (Dec 10, 2011)

I had a similar issue with a property I drywalled about `16 yrs. ago.I had top 2 floors completed,went back 6weeks later to finish the next phase and noticed every screw set in the home looked like it had never been coated.even the screws on the butt end of the sheets.prefilled with 90,taped ,coated three times.they had a break in the inline floor heating system they failed to mention at the time.they were losing Freon in the pad.


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## tjetson (Aug 12, 2011)

ICF the product that keeps giving. My guess is the issue is obviously the SNOW in the attic and also the water that is released from the concrete they probably didnt have the HRV running either. Anyway about it, it isn't your fault as the drywall guy. Would be nice if you cut him a decent price to fix it but i wouldn't feel obligated. 

Also i bet the garage wasn't build using ICF and they had air exchange with the door opening


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## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

Was the vapour barrier done up yo code? And was the ceiling insulation blown in before you started taping? If not all the moisture you make from the taping process will go up and get caught between the vapour barrier and drywall it will then freeze with some of your tapes as well. Then when they blow in the moisture trap will thaw and literally rain in the house. This would only explain the ceilings exposed to insulation as for basement etc did you tape it cold?


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## BOBTHEFIXER (Oct 28, 2013)

mudslingercor said:


> Was the vapour barrier done up yo code? And was the ceiling insulation blown in before you started taping? If not all the moisture you make from the taping process will go up and get caught between the vapour barrier and drywall it will then freeze with some of your tapes as well. Then when they blow in the moisture trap will thaw and literally rain in the house. This would only explain the ceilings exposed to insulation as for basement etc did you tape it cold?


vapour barrier was done by the owner ( i didnt check it up), the insulation was blown in while i am taping ( during 1st coat).

The weather was not cold at all it was at the end of May, but it was rainy and windy.


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## tjetson (Aug 12, 2011)

bob,

check my last reply i guarantee you it was the concrete releasing the moisture into the house the moisture vapor can travel through the foam the icf uses. I have seen this happen before. It explanes the basement ceiling issues.

can you answer if the garage was built using icf?


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## BOBTHEFIXER (Oct 28, 2013)

tjetson said:


> bob,
> 
> check my last reply i guarantee you it was the concrete releasing the moisture into the house the moisture vapor can travel through the foam the icf uses. I have seen this happen before. It explanes the basement ceiling issues.
> 
> can you answer if the garage was built using icf?


I believe the garage was not built using icf. I didnt drywall it but the opposite side of the the back and one side of the garage is icf.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

I still believe that CGC machine mud has problems with being reactivated with humidity and re shrinking that has caused your issue.


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## D A Drywall (May 4, 2013)

Bob cross your fingers and promise Mudstar that you will never use Machine Mud again.


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## D A Drywall (May 4, 2013)

Mudstar said:


> I still believe that CGC machine mud has problems with being reactivated with humidity and re shrinking that has caused your issue.


If Machine Mud really had these problems then it would no longer be the choice of professional tapers around here. 

Machine Mud is so popular here that Certainteed has come out with a copy cat mud called Machine Pro.


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## P.E.I.Taper (May 4, 2015)

D A Drywall said:


> If Machine Mud really had these problems then it would no longer be the choice of professional tapers around here.
> 
> Machine Mud is so popular here that Certainteed has come out with a copy cat mud called Machine Pro.


That being said... does anybody believe that different materials preform better it different climates?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

P.E.I.Taper said:


> That being said... does anybody believe that different materials preform better it different climates?


I think that's one of the points Mudstar was trying to make. :yes:


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## BOBTHEFIXER (Oct 28, 2013)

:cool2:


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

This mud has problems because


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## pips (May 15, 2015)

Yea every once in awhile we get a builder from up north or someone who used to build up north and they build here (it gets very hot and humid in summer and cold in winter). They build a house then wrap it with plastic for moisture barrier....its all fine and dandy til summer comes along then the house cant breath at all...water piles up on the plastic and comes through the screw holes in it, you can see water ring marks around the screw holes alot of times. My boss will even tell the homeowner/builder that its not going to last and wont guarantee it whatsoever. Then 6 months later they call up asking "what happened?!?"


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

D A Drywall said:


> If Machine Mud really had these problems then it would no longer be the choice of professional tapers around here.
> 
> Machine Mud is so popular here that Certainteed has come out with a copy cat mud called Machine Pro.


Of coarse its a good choice for hand finishing for ease to work with hand tools, it has slick feel to it and takes longer to dry so the slower finishers have time to work on the wall without it drying out on them. Its a light mud and easy to sand too. 

I don't use it because it takes too long to cure and if your a machine taper (tool) user this does not help when at certain stages of coating, a topic for tricks of the trade thread.

The reason not to use MachineMud is you don't know if the home is going to be exposed to a humidity problem and Machine Mud does not cure hard enough to resist moisture and re- shrinks. Bob's case is clearly a moisture problem from within, not the snow but trapping moisture because of the factors stated by a couple of members on here. 

Now if BOB knew this home was going to be a problem there would have been a better choice of muds to use and light muds or machine mud specifically that have no resistance to moisture is one of the worst choices to use in this type of environment :yes:


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## BOBTHEFIXER (Oct 28, 2013)

Psst Psst ... 10 months of Rain & Snow in the attic where could the water go ? Hmmmm 

The mud shouldve been Super MUD, My mistake.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm guessing this is your first experience with excessive moisture and humidity exposure to drywall joints. 

If all you can do is blame the snow and rain then I guess there should be spots the water came through since *"every joint"* in the ceilings of the main floor, upper floors, and the basement and mostly in the basement."


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

Mudstar said:


> I'm guessing this is your first experience with excessive moisture and humidity exposure to drywall joints.
> 
> If all you can do is blame the snow and rain then I guess there should be spots the water came through since *"every joint"* in the ceilings of the main floor, upper floors, and the basement and mostly in the basement."


Not fussed what every1 says, There should b no snow in that attic space!!


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Were the trusses designed for snow load on the bottom chord? Are they sloped for run off?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

VANMAN said:


> Not fussed what every1 says, There should b no snow in that attic space!!


Yep.... That's pretty much the bottom line!! :yes:


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## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

I wish I had something to add but the place is obviously not up to the region s code. Maybe the builder / home owner didn't know the local code and ended up building a house like it was for a different region. Light mud definitely didn't help but it's the house at fault mostly. Guess you'll know to use the normal stuff in general from now on just to avoid these type of things happening. The frame is wood correct? moisture probably made the wood expand and shrink so you see all those problems with joints and screws. Might be time to get the local county inspectors a call and ask how to fix this. Not you but the owner is going to need help fixing that moisture problem.


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## gusto (Oct 11, 2010)

Have they been running the furnace for heat from taping stage? Have they been keeping the heat at a constant temp? IE, fossil fuel heat?
Is there any delayed shrinkage on the walls, especially top angles? Has there been any moisture pooling around the outside walls on the floor? A lot of times when there is snow or ice buildup in he attic the moisture will run down the walls. Have they been adding any other moisture to the inside of the building Ie, gypcrete?
Who is doing the hardwood floors? a lot of time the installers will keep moisture meters in the house at that stage cause the moisture can totally screw up their job You could ask them about their working conditions.
I have been down this road lots of times working up north and at lots of ski hills. In my opinion it is definitely delayed shrinkage due to moisture buildup. Is there any way water could have pooled in the basement through the summer or fall? 
Even something as simple as the furnace drain dripping on the floor for a few days, winter months they can put 5 gallons or more on the floor per day. More than once I have had home owners telling me that nothing out of the ordinary happened, only to find out later there was something that happened. Not saying that is the case, but they don't want to pay to fix it, or they just don't understand.
I am not familiar with that mud, my tapers and I usually use synko or westroc, lite topping or all purpose , but in my experience excessive moisture will cause delayed shrinkage with any drywall mud.
I don't usually chime in much here, but can definitely sympathize with your situation, so I figured maybe something that was said here will help. Don't hesitate to send me a pm, if there is anything I can do to help.


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