# Recession



## MudMaster (Nov 19, 2008)

Maybey we can all update us on how works going right accross North America with the Global Economy Crisis and how it is affecting our trade in general..


Ontario is basically on a "wait and see" situation as spending has slowed down, houses are not selling and work is starting to dry up...

Not quoting many jobs anymore as i was 6 months ago, have to lower my prices to compete...never thought this would happen...

Hopefully im not pushing a lawn mower in the next 6 months.:hang:


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## pedtheshed (Aug 16, 2008)

*should i worry*

recession? i am a sub contract jointer working in the south east of england and after 15 years i have been lucky enough to always find work. The construction company i normally work for has capped all their sites wether the houses have their roofs on or just footings,i have a weeks worth of making good loose ends then thats it for them. they are big units 1 to 2 million pounds ,i am going to miss them. i have some commercial work and a small site starting in the new year,so i am not in shi!!! yet:blink:but judging from what i have heard around,things are not going to get better.I Dont know much about the economy,all i can see is that some people have been far too greedy for far too long and the vain attempts by the british government to stabilise this predicament are to no avail.its up to them to sort it.best wishes and a prosperous new year to all


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Outlook for Kansas City MO area dismal at best. Was doing 200 new homes a year in 2005. Have maybe done 40-50 this year. Have tried to pick up more tenant finish, multi-fam., & commercial but big boys and trunk slammers keep undercutting us. Look for a few customs / owner-builders but no new specs. New inventory still high worsened by # of foreclosures put back on market by banks. Who, by the way, have gone to hiring own contractor (usually a broke builder) to finish off, and own real estate arms. Nothing like a little competition, huh? Am thinking about trying lead service/s, any input on that?


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## amestaper (Sep 3, 2008)

In this part of the world there's a lot of sites empty or half finished. Imagine an empty old style wild west town with tumbleweed being blown across road and thats the scenario, less the dust and 50 degrees colder, very grim indeed. The immediate forecast seems bleak for the future of housebuilding in the UK and I hope things can pick up soon. I have had so many job enquiries coming from south of the border in England that it cant be any better there either. I wonder if every tradesman in the UK will end up building the Olympic Village in London, in what may be the only construction site in the country come 2010. 

Also noticed we're being undercut a lot more than we used to. We have some smaller jobs stockpiled for a rainy day, which may be soon as the new build we're on at the moment is nearly finished. These are the kind of contracts we're looking to do after the winter holiday.

Good luck to everyone and have a happy New Year.


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

theres only one place that i know of so far that has a healthy ecomomy, and a booming new housing market which is the province of saskatchewan in canada,had one of my competition go out there to work allready, if things get bad might have to do the same (somewhat stable for now, but could get worse in the coming months) is there any good areas in the u.s.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

It's ok here, nothing like it was 5-10 years ago, but it's ok.... there's all sorts of rehab's going on. You just have to adapt is what I've found. I was a guy that only did new const. 10 years ago, now I'm pretty much a rat, snatching what anyone will give me.... and I take it all!


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## Al Taper (Dec 16, 2007)

Here in New Jersey it is slow...My own work is slow and the union is very slow. So it dont look good. I talked to a guy that was hanging rock on a job.To see if he needed a finisher. And when I told him what charged a foot he laughed. Guys are doing it for $6.75 a sheet.:furious:


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

f' that, I would rather flip burgers for that


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## Al Taper (Dec 16, 2007)

Whitey97 said:


> f' that, I would rather flip burgers for that


Me too... No mud to deal with.:yes:


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

Steadily surviving out here. This is the time the people with no work retire from doing this trade or switch to something else, and the drywallers who last this recession will become the limited ones when the economy picks up. They will be the ones making all the $$$ again.


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

i fully agree joe seen some call it quits already, the ones that wake up in the morning grab there gear and get er done with pride that shows in there work, are the ones that will out last this recession. the ones who wake up and go to there job and watch the clock for the last hour in there work day are the ones that find something else to do in these times.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

you don't think that once it's over, they won't start doing it again? a know a few friends that are doing just that, as they don't have the client base that I do. Unfortunatly that's just how it is.


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## Al Taper (Dec 16, 2007)

Its going to get worse before it gets better. I know people are working for cheap, or only hacks are working. But then when it breaks, there will be alot of work. And someone has to fix the hacks work. Just hold on there guys it will get better..


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

^ agreed. perfectly stated


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

around here its the hacks who are starving, during the busy times builders who couldn't wait for the pros settled for them now that things slowed down a bit they're the ones at home, my company is fortunate like ****** we've developed a good client base and stay steady.


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

Alot of hacks geting jobs here in my parts. I been getting alot of calls for coming to fix another drywaller or wannabe drywaller's mess. The owner saids they went with them in the first place because they were the cheapest. Sometimes I catch myself wondering why are all the hackjobs getting these jobs, and how? (service magic probably)


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## Al Taper (Dec 16, 2007)

joepro0000 said:


> Alot of hacks geting jobs here in my parts. I been getting alot of calls for coming to fix another drywaller or wannabe drywaller's mess. The owner saids they went with them in the first place because they were the cheapest. Sometimes I catch myself wondering why are all the hackjobs getting these jobs, and how? (service magic probably)


Fixing other(wantabes) messes. I Charge by hour. Play it up like it a lot of work and show them the bubbles and the bad work and say" For me to my name on this job I have to redo it." As tapers you know it all smoke and mirrors..:yes::whistling2:

What I like are HO that want to save money and they say that they will tape it. So the you can drop your price..:furious:


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

i won't play that game, as much as I get sucked into it, I've just learned to keep it cool, drop 5 - 10 % and tell them this is as low as I can go for my professionalism. they understand when you put their foot down, or else they find someone else. F'm if they're that cheap, it's their wall they're going to look at for the next 30 years. I make sure to tell them that too!


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

i am sure a lot of the want a be tapers or drywall contractors will not last through a slow economy and will go out of business , the good contractors will continue knowing full well how to tough things out , haven't seen to much slow down here for my small company only reason i believe is that i have made some good choices as far as general contractors and have weeded out the fly buy night ones . there is always something going on and something to do , i have seen many of guys trying to get into the drywall industry through out the years they come and go , it will always be that way , there is always someone out there wanting to get something done for nothing for those , do not waste your time on it will only drag you and your business down move on and use what resources you have to find the few loyal and fair ones to work for.......


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

I'm feeling the pinch form both that hacks and the "big boys". Both are working for at or below my cost. Supply houses are beginning to close satellite locations and hear about another contractor folding almost weekly. Problem is hacks have no overhead and the bigs have deep pockets to adsorb losses. Have slashed my overhead to almost nothing and trying to hold on. Some work coming up in the next few weeks but virtually nothing at present, except reno & basements.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

nothing wrong with those. milk those out!


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

its funny i'm trying to imagine why gc's, developers, and builders would hire hacks in your areas during these times, don't they value professionalism and solid workmanship instead of the lowest bid?
there names and reputations are also on the line when they hire incompetent drywallers/tapers, and would they want to continue working with them when things pick up?
sucks but you'll probably have to forgive and forget, but i'd probably hold a grudge and let the hacks have em.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

well, being a painter also, A lot of the hack tapers just depend on the paintes to make their stuff look good. It's pretty pathetic the intense amount of touch up we do for the tape jobs we didn't get, but did get the painting for


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

To brdn -- yes their names are on the line -- that where the "bigs" are busting us. But the work for the HO's is where the hacks lurk. These HO's are getting the shaft right along with us. We still get calls from repeat and referral customers and will gut it out and the herd is beginning to thin. And yes, everytime I get slit on price, while frustrated, I go back to the truck smiling just a little bit comforted by the fact that both hack and HO are getting what they deserve.


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## rabb (Mar 22, 2008)

*hi*

hi - i am a drywall taper ,i did work for a company for about 16 year's just a few week's here and there off ,now from 1996-to 2009 i work about 6mo a year now ,i am in the union lol, i am in chicago ,it is real real hard for me to keep a job ,and get one ,if you are not a mexican ,you can for get it here in chi ,#1- i am a BLACK MALE #2 i am 53 year's old ,the last company i woke for i was the only black guy they had .i was last to ger threr and first to go , i still can work a good 8 hour ;s for someone but these guy take lunch at 12;15 but lunch is at 12;00,we get off at 3;00.but they stay to 3;30 ,so i do too these mexcan guy's are 20-35 the company's don't want no old BLACK GUY'S and no one to help me out i am not a bomb i just want to work ,i have a house and a car and trunk, i have 2 kid's in school still ,man i hate this **** , right now i am loss ,the guy's i work for back in the old day's are gone now ,they took good care of me because i work my as? off for them ,all new ppl now all they see is a old black ass taper now , i call them up and they say we are slow now , a mexican call and they tell him where to go the next day , i feel less than a man now my wife and kid's say daddy are you laid off again , yep yep 
thank's for this place guy's say a pray for me please RABB


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

rabb man thats real ****ty, a man with your skills should get an oppratunity to work, i've got 23 employees (non union) workin for me right now, if you'd immigrate to canada and are willing to do an honest days work for appropriate pay (my guys range from 12-19 per hour) i'd put you to work full time, or part-time if its better, my brother in law got me into this game about 10 yrs back and now that his arthridous is getting the better of him he works for me part time(still makes decent money when he feels up to it)
do you live in the northern states or in the south.


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## cadski (Feb 20, 2009)

brdn_drywall said:


> rabb man thats real ****ty, a man with your skills should get an oppratunity to work, i've got 23 employees (non union) workin for me right now, if you'd immigrate to canada and are willing to do an honest days work for appropriate pay (my guys range from 12-19 per hour) i'd put you to work full time, or part-time if its better, my brother in law got me into this game about 10 yrs back and now that his arthridous is getting the better of him he works for me part time(still makes decent money when he feels up to it)
> do you live in the northern states or in the south.


 
is that 19 canadian dollars?


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## A+ Texture LLC (Jan 10, 2009)

Raab, my heart goes out to you. I did say a prayer for you and I hope things fall into place for you. Times are tuff, let me offer a few suggestions. Advertise in the paper as a handyman or for drywall repairs. I'm actually licensed but new to the builders and GC's here so I adv. in the paper. I get about 4-6 calls a month, but that might get me close to $3,000 in income for the month, not that great but not that bad for just a $90 add. I also advertise on craigslist, surprisingly I get almost the same amount of calls, less result in work though. If you do get calls from these sources, they want *FAST *estimates. I had a couple jobs that by the time I got my bid to them they started scraping popcorn themselves or got someone else to do it, so be prompt!!! You look at a job, call'em back that night or give'em a bid next morning, I'm serious, do not waste time!! If you need a vehicle, or something done at your house advertise on craigslist under the barter section. I'm hanging and finishing a guys garage for a pop up camper, my cost $600, value of camper $3,000. You just need to get creative. I started calling insurances co's too, they referred me too restoration co's. that sub out work. Call a couple restoration co's and remodelers, they might sub some work to you, just make sure your within legal limits of what your allowed to charge without a license, here you can do up to do up to like $1000 job without a license and that ain't to shabby. Good luck dude, I'll talk to my homey (GOD):innocent: once in awhile for ya.


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## tonyvlx (Feb 6, 2008)

I work for a major player in the drywall buisness here in the Greater Toronto Area. We were busy till last week. Now absolutly nothing to do. Our formans dont even answer there phones when we call. Im not sure if its cause the winter or cause nothing has sold in the past few months.Its scary thoe, i have a new house closing Nov 1st 2009 and will have a mortgage. Very worried right now.


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## Al Taper (Dec 16, 2007)

tonyvlx said:


> I work for a major player in the drywall buisness here in the Greater Toronto Area. We were busy till last week. Now absolutly nothing to do. Our formans dont even answer there phones when we call. Im not sure if its cause the winter or cause nothing has sold in the past few months.Its scary thoe, *i have a new house closing Nov 1st 2009 and will have a mortgage. Very worried right now*.


 I bought a house in april.. As of right now Iam two months behind..Jan N Feb. and it the 21 of feb. Got laid off the 15 of Jan. No union work. And side jobs they say.Like the price, job wount be ready till next week. Next week comes call them and get the run around..:furious: They are busy job still not ready... :furious:

So Tonyvlx ... Welcome to the club....


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

LoL, as I was reading your post Al, I was thinking, welcome to the club, then there it is, right there on the bottom. At least you've realized it quick


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Feel your pain too. But warmer weather won't cure our ills. Be proactive and call your creditors and make arrangements and new friends. Maybe they'll send you some work. Leave business cards
EVERYWHERE. In the pile two sheets down at HomeDepot or on the bulletin board at the cafe, etc. Call your insurance agent--sometimes they have clients with stuff too small for other guys they usually refer. Roofers always need somebody to fix the drywall if the roof leaked. Network, talk to painters, paint stores etc. And yes answer those calls FAST.


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## Al Taper (Dec 16, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Feel your pain too. But warmer weather won't cure our ills. Be proactive and call your creditors and make arrangements and new friends. Maybe they'll send you some work. *Leave business cards*
> EVERYWHERE. In the pile two sheets down at HomeDepot or on the bulletin board at the cafe, etc. Call your insurance agent--sometimes they have clients with stuff too small for other guys they usually refer. Roofers always need somebody to fix the drywall if the roof leaked. Network, talk to painters, paint stores etc. And yes answer those calls FAST.


Iam a business card whore. I stick them everywhere. :w00t:
I would stick them in a GCs ass if i could get that close to them...:whistling2:LOL

I have heard that it might start turning around in like 6 months..But we will have to see. But we never know.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I'm feeling the pinch form both that hacks and the "big boys". Both are working for at or below my cost. Supply houses are beginning to close satellite locations and hear about another contractor folding almost weekly. Problem is hacks have no overhead and the bigs have deep pockets to adsorb losses. Have slashed my overhead to almost nothing and trying to hold on. Some work coming up in the next few weeks but virtually nothing at present, except reno & basements.


100% Correct.

I cannot believe prices i am hearing out there. Companies are practically whoring themselves out there just to be able to say they are 'doing business.'

Darren is right...the big generals and big companies are just trying to break-even charging right above cost.......while the 'hacks' are charging cost because they THINK they have no overhead and are simply breaking-even (seemingly) only to find themselves filing chapter 11 most likely by the end of this year or two.

My company is fortunate enough to service a leading 'on your lot' production builder who usually does 250-300 houses a year (5-6 starts a week) to probably 50-80 for 2009 (now 1-2 starts a week)...but trust me, i am very fortunate for just that. other than that, to increase margins i target high-end custom home builders, owner-builders, to commercial (TI's and Shells specifically).

if anything, my goal now is to purposefully stay small and 'lean' in order to keep profits balanced. i.e., no sense trying to get greedy and do to much in a market that just wont allow it. I've just lowered all my numbers across the board basically, as in staff, overhead, job bidding, and of course -- profit margin.

however, there is a price per sq. ft. i will NOT go below (rather close my business) when bidding..........i just try to put in at least 20-25% after overhead. im doing so-so in scoring those jobs (hit and miss), and it gives me a 'feel' for the market as far as going price per sq. ft.

Actually, as recent as 2-3 months ago, i did a small experiment while bidding a low-risk, small sized, 8' flat home -- about 2,200 SF, for an owner-builder. i purposefully bid the job at my COST...just to see what was going to happen (the owner did tell me he was getting 3 other bids, plus mine)...i felt it was a good way to see where competition was at if i was awarded the job.

sure enough, about 2-3 days later he called me back saying he wanted me to do the job. i asked him after he signed the contract roughly where my number was at compared to the other drywall bids. Frightening enough, he said i was in the middle...about the third highest. He said the 2 below me were so low (about 30% lower) it was suspicious. i couldnt believe it........the fact that i had bid the guys house at MY COST....and there were still hacks out there significantly lower than me. He then told me the one guy higher than me was by only about 250 bucks. 

Anyways, if ur interested as to how i made out after his house was finished, i did just OKAY. knowing it was a cost job, i tightened as much as i could and was able to manage making about 15%.......but, other than that, i wouldnt call it 'making money.' waste of time more than anything, honestly.

if i had bid the job how i "normally" would have, knowing the highest number -- there would be absolutely no way i wouldve gotten it.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

brdn_drywall said:


> its funny i'm trying to imagine why gc's, developers, and builders would hire hacks in your areas during these times, don't they value professionalism and solid workmanship instead of the lowest bid?
> there names and reputations are also on the line when they hire incompetent drywallers/tapers, and would they want to continue working with them when things pick up?
> sucks but you'll probably have to forgive and forget, but i'd probably hold a grudge and let the hacks have em.


HAH!

you'd be surprised bro.........right now, the LOWEST BID talks....its fkkn pathetic, i know.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Planning to look at a rather large job today. Considered doing this before, but swear this time I gonna just ask the PM "Just where do I have to be $-wise to get the job?" Dispense with the back-and-forth. Got the impression that the current bidder just doesn't have their confidence or something. The job is too far along to be changing DW contractors.

Custom, I did much the same on a near-cost job and like you, did get it but haven't gotten to speak with builder at length since (as to where competitors were). Supposedly has 6 more this year. We shall see....

The other builder I considered doing near-cost work for ..... I find out through the grapevine is teetering on collapse. Feel fortunate to NOT get the one job I did bid out. Of course, nearly every builder is on the verge these days (or so it seems).


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

On the big job I looked at today... Found out they'd haggled one guy down so much he backed out and the other one is prone to punking the help. They deserve each other. That job already has OSHA and inspection issues and ICE won't be too far behind.

Kinda like deer hunting... happy when I get one, even happier if I don't :lol:


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