# Converting to hawk and trowel



## saskataper (Mar 6, 2011)

Just started using a hawk and trowel again to coat bead in a basement and I love it. My first try at becoming a taper about 8 years ago my boss was a h&t guy but I didn't last long. When I got back into it last year my new boss was a pan and knife guy and that's how I learned but now I am thinking the hawk and trowel is the way to go. It's a little messy and a little slower right now but I'm sure I'll get better with a little practice. 
Anybody have any tips like what kind of trowels to get, I only have one 11.5" now.


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

saskataper said:


> Just started using a hawk and trowel again to coat bead in a basement and I love it. My first try at becoming a taper about 8 years ago my boss was a h&t guy but I didn't last long. When I got back into it last year my new boss was a pan and knife guy and that's how I learned but now I am thinking the hawk and trowel is the way to go. It's a little messy and a little slower right now but I'm sure I'll get better with a little practice.
> Anybody have any tips like what kind of trowels to get, I only have one 11.5" now.


 Yea thats the way 2 go lad:yes:
Marshaltown r some of the best i have used but wait till Moore speaks he is the Man!! I have a couple of dif 1's,Biggest is 14!!


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## storming34 (Nov 25, 2011)

I've been using H&T for years, I use a 10" trowel with Lafarge Rapid Coat mud. works graet!


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

*Laurier Desormeaux videos*

Always like watching Laurier Desormeaux - he seems to be comfortable with the hawk and trowel


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Nice! I too like the Marshalltown trowels, especially the permashapes. My 14" is sweet, and I just got a 16" which is pretty nice too. My 12" is used for blocking because it's stiffer, and I have a 20" too, which makes for nice big flat butts. For now I'd stick with a 12" and a 14"...I prefer 5" wide myself, but that's all preference. I have some fancy Italian deals for specialty finishes, but they don't see a ton of use. Some guys swear by Curry trowels....I've used them, they're pretty nice too.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

VANMAN said:


> Yea thats the way 2 go lad:yes:
> Marshaltown r some of the best i have used but wait till Moore speaks he is the Man!! I have a couple of dif 1's,Biggest is 14!!


No,no,no Vanman I suck at the trowel . I use broad knifes . 
Since I've been on DWT I have bought a few Trowels ,,and I play with them a bit
NOT an easy tool to master... No ripples with the trowel compared to broad knifes . 

Drunkin bum. I like that! Wish I'd thought of it first!!


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

When I first started in the trade over 30 years ago I purchased a Tyzack trowel. I still have that trowel. As you can imagine it has seen a lot of mud in that time and these days it only gets used as a cornice trowel or if I need to give something a scrape. I have two other Tyzack trowels for mud work. IMO they are among the best that you can get. I personally dont like stainless trowels I think that they lack the feel and finish of carbon steel JMO.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

I feel the same way about the stainless broad knifes Gaz .
Don't care for em ..


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

moore said:


> No,no,no Vanman I suck at the trowel . I use broad knifes .
> Since I've been on DWT I have bought a few Trowels ,,and I play with them a bit
> NOT an easy tool to master... No ripples with the trowel compared to broad knifes .
> 
> Drunkin bum. I like that! Wish I'd thought of it first!!


 Ithought u were a trowel man as u were a hand finisher!!??
Man i dont no how any1 can do work like u with a big scraper
I hate the things


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

gazman said:


> When I first started in the trade over 30 years ago I purchased a Tyzack trowel. I still have that trowel. As you can imagine it has seen a lot of mud in that time and these days it only gets used as a cornice trowel or if I need to give something a scrape. I have two other Tyzack trowels for mud work. IMO they are among the best that you can get. I personally dont like stainless trowels I think that they lack the feel and finish of carbon steel JMO.


 I'm with both u and moore here i like my trowels and knives in steel and not stainless!They keep there shape a lot better:thumbsup:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

VANMAN said:


> Ithought u were a trowel man as u were a hand finisher!!??
> Man i dont no how any1 can do work like u with a big scraper
> I hate the things


A BIG SCRAPER!!:furious:,,,,,,,,,,,If I were sober I would take offense !!


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

moore said:


> A BIG SCRAPER!!:furious:,,,,,,,,,,,If I were sober I would take offense !!


You would hate my step father then









If he met a straight knife taper, he would go "Mister, why do you use shovel to put mud on wall" Use a Hungarian accent when you say that:whistling2:


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Stay stainless it is lesser wipes who care if ya chuck it years later cause it's a bit bent, by then you more than made Dollas


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## fenez (Nov 30, 2009)

Here in nyc the norm is hawk and knives. 99percent of all tapers use them, occasionally you run into an old timer that uses trowels, even pans are rare here.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Stay stainless it is lesser wipes who care if ya chuck it years later cause it's a bit bent, by then you more than made Dollas


stainless are bent when ya buy them. I pitch broad knives once a month ,,not years later.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Blue steel is great if you like rust or smearing oil all over your sh!t all the time. All my blue steel trowels need to be sanded before I can even use them on work where it counts.....that's a pain in the rear buttockal region.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> Blue steel is great if you like rust or smearing oil all over your sh!t all the time. All my blue steel trowels need to be sanded before I can even use them on work where it counts.....that's a pain in the rear buttockal region.


But.. It's worth it for me. I really really really really dislike stainless . but then,,, my blue steel don't sit around long enough to rust up..


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

moore said:


> But.. It's worth it for me. I really really really really dislike stainless . but then,,, my blue steel don't sit around long enough to rust up..


My trowels rust up overnight....do you work all night long? You maniac!

I like the stainless, and not because it stays pretty....I think it has something to do with the way it treats the lightweight mud. Plus, when working clay, I don't have to worry about burning the material when giving it a rub-down. Marshalltown's stainless is that weird gold color though....not sure what the difference is. I have an old 14" regular stainless trowel and I can't stand that forker. All personal preference I suppose......or I just haven't learned how to be awesome yet?


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

Boxes are quicker but I'll never toss away my H&T like I did my boxes. I prefer to get it right on the first pass every time.:whistling2:
And I like knowing that my hands did the work instead of a box. I get more pride out of my work too.


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

saskataper said:


> Just started using a hawk and trowel again to coat bead in a basement and I love it. My first try at becoming a taper about 8 years ago my boss was a h&t guy but I didn't last long. When I got back into it last year my new boss was a pan and knife guy and that's how I learned but now I am thinking the hawk and trowel is the way to go. It's a little messy and a little slower right now but I'm sure I'll get better with a little practice.
> Anybody have any tips like what kind of trowels to get, I only have one 11.5" now.



A 4 x 11½ is all I use. Does everything and no need to change trowels between beads, flats or butts.
I do have a 14" in the bottom of my tool box that hasn't seen the light of day in 3 years. Only gets used on beaded columns that are over 11" and under 16".
Marshalltown stainless are my weapon of choice and one trowel usually lasts about 5 years if I don't sand it to clean off dry mud. Sanding it will slowly thin it out and can cause ripples or waves when coating because of its flimsiness.


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## capspackle (Dec 12, 2010)

moore said:


> stainless are bent when ya buy them. I pitch broad knives once a month ,,not years later.


Moore instead of throwing them knife away try filing the sharp edge off and 
hitting with a little sandpaper. I do it all the time make them work better than new.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

capspackle said:


> Moore instead of throwing them knife away try filing the sharp edge off and
> hitting with a little sandpaper. I do it all the time make them work better than new.


I do that,,but after awhile the blade snakes up.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

moore said:


> stainless are bent when ya buy them. I pitch broad knives once a month ,,not years later.



ty moore I look till I get a good one


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

capspackle said:


> Moore instead of throwing them knife away try filing the sharp edge off and
> hitting with a little sandpaper. I do it all the time make them work better than new.



kool I forgot to say I put some weight on both sides of trowel leave it that way for a few weeks


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

moore said:


> I do that,,but after awhile the blade snakes up.


well moore I dunno what to say, think you have moore experience with em


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## capspackle (Dec 12, 2010)

moore said:


> I do that,,but after awhile the blade snakes up.


I've never had a knife snake up on me, but I do like a slight bow to my blades.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

I have a small 8" marshalltown that I use for beads,,,(when I use a trowel) 

Hardly ever hear of a trowel guy that uses a smaller trowel,,,,, how come trowel guys got to cover 1/2 the wall anyway????

I only use stainless,,,,anything!!!!!! Use to use blue steel,,till i moved to the beach,,,, a blue steel will rust overnight here.

I know a guy,,,(from NJ) that moved here,,,he uses a 22" trowel to bed with. Can you say SANDING????? Jeese,,,,why does anyone use a trowel that big,,,I mean,,,the bevel is only 51/2" wide at the most!!!!!


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I have a small 8" marshalltown that I use for beads,,,(when I use a trowel)
> 
> Hardly ever hear of a trowel guy that uses a smaller trowel,,,,, how come trowel guys got to cover 1/2 the wall anyway????
> 
> ...


ya know capt I feel what you say, I run 3.5 for angle, buddy downstairs runs 3, I use 6 knife to 3way he uses 4 knife, I cover all mud on nails with 6 inch and some I never did , I sanded today and realized I need some sharpening up, Buddy make Dollars I make 2000 less a month, few other things he does also


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> ya know capt I feel what you say, I run 3.5 for angle, buddy downstairs runs 3, I use 6 knife to 3way he uses 4 knife, I cover all mud on nails with 6 inch and some I never did , I sanded today and realized I need some sharpening up, Buddy make Dollars I make 2000 less a month, few other things he does also


 Ya know,,, we learn a way to do things,,, is it the only way??? is it the right way??? is there a better or faster way????

If the job looks good when its painted,,,, its right,,,period,,,,,,

don't matter if the bed coat was done with an 8" knife from Blowes,,,,or a 22" Marshalltown trowel.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I have a small 8" marshalltown that I use for beads,,,(when I use a trowel)
> 
> Hardly ever hear of a trowel guy that uses a smaller trowel,,,,, how come trowel guys got to cover 1/2 the wall anyway????
> 
> ...


Yikes, a 22" to bed with? I have an 8", but it rarely sees use. I use a 12" (stiff) & 14" ( l'il bit more flexible) for the recess, and a 20" for the butts, only so I can just pull down the middle in most cases and not have a lap/edge to sand. Our rock is generally bad enough that you have to go bigger on the bevel....high shoulders on at least 50% of the boards.

I can't lay a coat down with the 20" :no: that would be suicide....when I'm done with the flats, I just kinda kiss the edges with the sander and pull the fuzz off the mud (from the lightweight). NOT a big fan of sanding, so I try to avoid it:thumbsup:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> Yikes, a 22" to bed with? I have an 8", but it rarely sees use. I use a 12" (stiff) & 14" ( l'il bit more flexible) for the recess, and a 20" for the butts, only so I can just pull down the middle in most cases and not have a lap/edge to sand. Our rock is generally bad enough that you have to go bigger on the bevel....high shoulders on at least 50% of the boards.
> 
> I can't lay a coat down with the 20" :no: that would be suicide....when I'm done with the flats, I just kinda kiss the edges with the sander and pull the fuzz off the mud (from the lightweight). NOT a big fan of sanding, so I try to avoid it:thumbsup:


 Slim,,,I understand about bad boards,,,we get em too, and ya got to do what ya got to do,,,to fix em.

I was just trying to make the point that sometimes we get all caught up on techniques,,that we forget that the objective was to get it done as fast as we can(resonably) so that we can make as much money as we can and still deliver a professional finish,,:thumbup:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Slim,,,I understand about bad boards,,,we get em too, and ya got to do what ya got to do,,,to fix em.
> 
> I was just trying to make the point that sometimes we get all caught up on techniques,,that we forget that the objective was to get it done as fast as we can(resonably) so that we can make as much money as we can and still deliver a professional finish,,:thumbup:


Bad boards??? Ya mean to say there are manufactures out there [certainteed] making bad wallboard??? that's a new one on me:whistling2::whistling2::blink:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

moore said:


> Bad boards??? Ya mean to say there are manufactures out there [certainteed] making bad wallboard??? that's a new one on me:whistling2::whistling2::blink:


 Stick around,,,ya might pick up on something,,,,:whistling2:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

capspackle said:


> I've never had a knife snake up on me, but I do like a slight bow to my blades.


Well keep on with the file ...It will bow up real good for you!


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

saskataper said:


> Just started using a hawk and trowel again to coat bead in a basement and I love it. My first try at becoming a taper about 8 years ago my boss was a h&t guy but I didn't last long. When I got back into it last year my new boss was a pan and knife guy and that's how I learned but now I am thinking the hawk and trowel is the way to go. It's a little messy and a little slower right now but I'm sure I'll get better with a little practice.
> Anybody have any tips like what kind of trowels to get, I only have one 11.5" now.


Shall try to put this thread back on track for you sask

A few tips

Just use a 10 to 11" towel at maximum, when taping (not plastering) that's all that is needed., and just b/c a trowel is 10"wide, does not mean you half to coat 10" wide with it, like beads for example.

Main place we use the H&T is on beads, short joints on windows and doors etc, and for general skim coating of things. The biggest advantage of the H&T is you can load greater amounts of material on the walls. If I'm wrong , then they would not of used them in plaster, stucco, or cement work, and these trades I mention, had many different variants in the trowels they used. Some were big or small, but the main thing is what the blade did. some you wanted the blade to bend up when you looked down it, some you wanted the blade to curve up when you looked across it, some you wanted to be stiff, some you wanted them to be flexible, there's more to a trowel that meets the eyes, but for taping....

A 10" curve trowel is good to have, I call it the poor mans box, well I have heard others call it a hill billy trowel. Good to coat flats with, in areas where it's hard to get with your boxes for ONE!!!! example:furious:

For the flat trowel, just for taping ONLY !!!! ,get one that sits perfectly flat, their all you need for taping. But their not good for skimming out whole walls, it leaves spit lines that stick out. you need a flat trowel with a slight upward bend in it for that.

And something I always notice on you tube, you don't half to flip the hawk upside down to get the mud off, thats over kill. Just turn it to a 85 degree angle, thats good enough IMO


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Stick around,,,ya might pick up on something,,,,:whistling2:


Your quick !


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

I've been thinking about picking up a trowel or two, just to play around with. Never hurts to have another skill set you can pull out when the need arises.

What's a good all-purpose trowel for drywall? What about for skimming?

Also, does anyone use a bent hawk? A few girls I worked with at the plant used em. A few others would get a flat hawk, and have it cut down to like a 12 x 12.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

fr8train said:


> I've been thinking about picking up a trowel or two, just to play around with. Never hurts to have another skill set you can pull out when the need arises.
> 
> What's a good all-purpose trowel for drywall? What about for skimming?
> 
> Also, does anyone use a bent hawk? A few girls I worked with at the plant used em. A few others would get a flat hawk, and have it cut down to like a 12 x 12.


Different strokes for different folks on trowels and sizes but avoid the cheap ones made for concrete, they rust bad. Stay with the ones made for drywall.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

fr8train said:


> I've been thinking about picking up a trowel or two, just to play around with. Never hurts to have another skill set you can pull out when the need arises.
> 
> What's a good all-purpose trowel for drywall? What about for skimming?
> 
> Also, does anyone use a bent hawk? A few girls I worked with at the plant used em. A few others would get a flat hawk, and have it cut down to like a 12 x 12.


Just a 10 or 11 inch perfectly flat trowel.

But they are harder to learn how to use than a pan and knife. P&K are a simple progression, since most newbies start out as screw spotters, you just half to slowly integrate a larger knife to them. H&T is a whole different ball game. To me the zookie was faster to pick up on than the H&T IMO. But there are similarities to the two, there's running a zook, them mastering one, it's the same with the H&T. That's why, when I hear someone say, Oh I tried the H&T once, and didn't like it, I give my head a shake:yes:

It can be a each to his own thing, sometimes I will skim with the P&K, mostly on short joints, b/c you can get a tighter edge with them. but for loading, I can't run up a bead 6 feet with mud using a knife, but with a trowel I can, not that I do that all the time, but I can.

To me a P&K feels like your painting all the time, you dip into a pan (like a paint can) to draw material, then spread it on the wall, then stroke it out. It just has a painting feel to it IMO, well the H&T is well ????????????? I don't know, it's different ????:blink:


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## saskataper (Mar 6, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> Shall try to put this thread back on track for you sask
> 
> A few tips
> 
> ...


Thanks 2Buck thats good to know. I plan on using them for bead mostly, might try and skim the butts on monday. One thing I did like yesterday was that I could coat bead 8" if i wanted, also I had a few 13"x42" windows with drywall returns :furious: that I could get into a lot easier with the trowel than i could a knife.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Slim,,,I understand about bad boards,,,we get em too, and ya got to do what ya got to do,,,to fix em.
> 
> I was just trying to make the point that sometimes we get all caught up on techniques,,that we forget that the objective was to get it done as fast as we can(resonably) so that we can make as much money as we can and still deliver a professional finish,,:thumbup:


Hey.....I think confused1 this is us agreeing on something!:clap:


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## saskataper (Mar 6, 2011)

Went and picked up a 11x4.5 flat Curry trowel and a new 14" Curry magnesium hawk yesterday and used them to skim my butts today and I gotta say I'm getting the hang of it (thanks 2Buck your vids helped a lot) it seems more natural to me.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

I actually had to break out my homemade 3ft trowel today 

Sheetrock screwed directly to ductwork with a hellacious bow in it. One pass with some 20 minute, skim coat of AP, bees knees.

Just to whine and rant for a minute, this job that I'm on is a "full box" job....which means I have to use every tool in my box to get it done:laughing:

pie knife, margin trowel, 12, 14, 20, 36 inch trowels, pan, 4", 6", 8", 10", 12" knives, etc. Good times!


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> I actually had to break out my homemade 3ft trowel today
> 
> Sheetrock screwed directly to ductwork with a hellacious bow in it. One pass with some 20 minute, skim coat of AP, bees knees.
> 
> ...


That's some cut-up chit... Basements :furious: 
I did a basement last winter 30 boards . 400 ft of bead..:yes:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

moore said:


> That's some cut-up chit... Basements :furious:
> I did a basement last winter 30 boards . 400 ft of bead..:yes:


Yikes....that's a lot of bead! This one has only 200 ft. of bead, and 100 ft. no-coat put on outside corners. And lots of pipes here and there, and some weird stairs, and he wants me to finish under the stairs.....way down, after he had me frame in a drawer that goes ALMOST all the way across the thing. I should have framed in a knee wall and saved myself some grief:laughing:

Oh well, money is money.:thumbsup: I'm not really complaining, I like doing weird tricky stuff as long as I'm getting paid properly.


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## harvey randall (Nov 23, 2010)

*i dont even know how to spell hawk and trial.*

but- you can dump a lot of mud on bead, and other places- like the floor. use gravity to help you run the mud ole kid. always work down. harve, it will save your arm sockets-etc.


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