# Todays Finishing Drama, a little long :)



## Drywall1 (Dec 9, 2007)

Had my first sub quit on me today. I pay around 25-30% more than anyone in town and this old school guy and his helper 45 and 65 respectivly wanted some work. They don't do the big stuff just small stuff, perfect, I can never find anyone to do the small remod. stuff. 

So fast forward to end of first job. I did a walk thru after texture and 3rd skim and before final sanding. All looked good. I didnt get out a light, but all looked like a final sand is all it needed. 

Next thing is I get a call from the builder with a "dude this quality is unacceptable" so I haul ass over there and it is pretty bad. I did the "wont let it happen again" and then proceeded to call the finisher up. They show up with the blame game...whatever just make it right. So this am I go there with my light to do a once over.

OMFG I shoud have taken a light over it long before this AM. So I call him again and point everything out again and Pencil whip the entire place (I would break someones arm if they did that to me but I had no choice) asking as I went "is this acceptable to you?" 

I could tell he was starting to take it very personal so I backed off and went over to another job and let them fix the stuff again.

They then come over to me and say "I don't think I could ever make you happy...this is our first and last job for you." Blew me away. I tried to tell him I don't beat around the bush about what I expect, and that once he knew he would be fine. He said my expectations were too high. F- that. Thats when I said have a nice day.

They said they would sand that job again and be done. I said ok. I went to check it out this eve. and only bout 1/2 the stuff was done. WTF do I do. Deduct from his check? I have given ample oppturnity to make it right. I have less drama with the 20k sq ft houses than this 1400 dollar basement deal.

So what ya all think? Sorry it's so long. I'm really not an a-hole. I think I'm just gonna pay him what we agreed on and get to work on fixing the job myself tomorrow AM. Wouldnt be a big deal if I didn't have 8 projects rollin right now.

Nate


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## ghost (Jan 14, 2008)

Its a good thing i'm not good at typing. I would make that paragraph look short. I am a finisher and not perfect because in reality who is. It drives me crazy when I pay for a job and its not even close to what i expect. All in all its your reputation if they can't respect that  them. my two cents


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## taper71 (Dec 9, 2007)

I am a really fussy taper. I have really high expectations aswell. Really if the job is unaceptable from a builder then for a drywaller it must be absolutely atrocios. I would probably do as you though and just pay what was agreed and fix myself. Makes you look like the good guy all the way around too.


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

I have gone thru this with some of the subs i use. For the most part their pretty good but some don't understand the roll light plays. When they touch up during the day they only see whats there during the day. 3 hours later the light shifts and the room looks different. It's a simple solution. When we touch up we use clip lights and cast shadows to catch what ever we can. Unfortunately with guys who have been doing this a while they are to arrogant to learn new methods and for some reason take constructive critisim personaly. So you can't tell them that and you should'nt have to. While it's true nobody's perfect that does'nt mean you should'nt try to be. My guys sometimes forget that. My advice, i hate to say is fix it yourself and pay the guy and move on. This way you can find someone else and the other guy does'nt black list you as a person who does'nt pay or as someone you can't please. Also the next crew, make sure they use light when they sand and touch up. Some guys don't use them because it takes to much time. It takes more time to come back. Good luck


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## Drywall1 (Dec 9, 2007)

Yep I paid him the full ammt. and fixed the job myself. Everyone says runnin subs is easier. I say BS. I love my hourly guys. They know what I want and do it how I want.


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

Don't let a bad experience sour you on subs. If your guys can do it and you make money great. But try to find a good sub and let him know up front what you want and how you want it. I suggest this because some times you need a specilist for certian jobs (to make time, too big or you just have to much going on). You don't have to give them all your work always keep your guys busy first. I have a contractor in NY who does this. I'm cool with it and even trained some of his guys. He looks out for me and i him. I can't tell you how many times i bailed him out with a client on rough jobs. His guys take care of follow up work for me (such as changes , moved light patches , moved outlets , etc).


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## Drywall1 (Dec 9, 2007)

Yeah I will always have subs. There is no other way. The market is too volitile. Just this one instince threw me for a loop. Im gettin over it though :0)


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

Good luck, and give em hell. If they want to piss you of at least have fun with it. I do.


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## MWHITLEY (Jan 31, 2008)

Can I ask what does the light do for you ? I dont do full drywall jobs but do alot of patches for plumbers and electricans and have for a few years. Not a smart ass just wondering if i am missing something that might make my jobs better or faster ? but I have had no complaints to date.


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

MWHITLEY said:


> Can I ask what does the light do for you ? I dont do full drywall jobs but do alot of patches for plumbers and electricans and have for a few years. Not a smart ass just wondering if i am missing something that might make my jobs better or faster ? but I have had no complaints to date.


 
Sure thing. During the day the sun usally goes from one end of the house to the other and at night not at all. With all these light changes the shadows it creates tends to show things at different times. That's why i use a clip light to recreate these shadows. If you look at the walls in your home at different times you may notice this. Also don't make the mistake of looking thru the light on touch up. Hold the light about 1' to your left (if right handed or vise versa) and look slightly to the right also move the light accordingly. A good test is to do what you normaly do. Then take the light around and see how you did.


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## 1wallboardsman (Feb 20, 2008)

Drywall1 said:


> Had my first sub quit on me today. I pay around 25-30% more than anyone in town and this old school guy and his helper 45 and 65 respectivly wanted some work. They don't do the big stuff just small stuff, perfect, I can never find anyone to do the small remod. stuff.
> 
> 
> Next thing is I get a call from the builder with a "dude this quality is unacceptable" so I haul ass over there and it is pretty bad. I did the "wont let it happen again" and then proceeded to call the finisher up. They show up with the blame game...whatever just make it right. So this am I go there with my light to do a once over.
> ...


I got a few problems with the "old school" reference, are you saying that young guys are generally more knowledgeable then old guys?

Then, how did the job look OK to you, and then it was terrible? You didn't mention what was wrong with it? I am a little demanding myself. In the 80's I fired every hanger in S. Fl., some of them twice. I fired many framers, and several finishers. They all had it coming, and I did a lot of work myself because of it. I was called relentless. I also turned out the best finished product in town regardless of what garbage was handed to me to work with. I fired a few builders too.

So what was wrong with the job?

jdl


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## savant (Dec 19, 2007)

*Here we go...*

:2guns::gun_bandana::wheelchair:

uh, oh. DrywallTalk's WW1.




I'm ready.
:gunsmilie:


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## Drywall1 (Dec 9, 2007)

1wallboardsman said:


> I got a few problems with the "old school" reference, are you saying that young guys are generally more knowledgeable then old guys?
> 
> Then, how did the job look OK to you, and then it was terrible? You didn't mention what was wrong with it? I am a little demanding myself. In the 80's I fired every hanger in S. Fl., some of them twice. I fired many framers, and several finishers. They all had it coming, and I did a lot of work myself because of it. I was called relentless. I also turned out the best finished product in town regardless of what garbage was handed to me to work with. I fired a few builders too.
> 
> ...


 
Read into it a little more dawg! I was there when it was 3rd skimmed and textured. It was not sanded yet. And we all know the best 3rd skim in the world unsanded looks like crap. 

BTW I may only be 30 yrs old. But I started going to the drywall job with my dad when I was able to walk. So I consider myself old school also. I dont claim to know everything. But I def. know what looks good and acceptable. 

No need to have WW1 here. Its just drywall Its funny the second half of your post sounds just like the way I am. So Savant I'll tell you when it's go time. Just not the case here.


Nate


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

SUITNG UP AND READY TO GO.:tank:


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## Brockster (Dec 15, 2007)

How did I miss this gem? Oh well, there's always the next time...


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## rettt (Mar 31, 2008)

:gun_bandana:The managment attitude and the underlings who dont know anything because the management wants big profits no matter how hard the underlings work. AGE OLD PROBLEMS MY FRIENDS! WWW.WALTIP.COM


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

rettt said:


> :gun_bandana:The managment attitude and the underlings who dont know anything because the management wants big profits no matter how hard the underlings work. AGE OLD PROBLEMS MY FRIENDS! WWW.WALTIP.COM


 
Sorry to say this is a one sided and ignorant statement. Most workers only look at things through their own eyes. They don't think anyone but them should make money. They don't consider expense,biding jobs,ordering material,excepting deliveries,scheduling jobs,cost of insurance,workmans comp or liabilty. They think the management does nothing but make phone calls. To workers who think they get screwed i say go out on your own. Be your own boss. Then tell me about management attitude. Sometimes management needs to push harder. That's what they do. Workers don't always perform to potenial. I can't figure out why people have a problem with people who want to make money. That's why we work. Again if you don't like your company open your own shop. Then you'll at least earn respect.:boxing:


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## 1wallboardsman (Feb 20, 2008)

butcherman said:


> Sorry to say this is a one sided and ignorant statement. Most workers only look at things through their own eyes. They don't think anyone but them should make money. They don't consider expense,biding jobs,ordering material,excepting deliveries,scheduling jobs,cost of insurance,workmans comp or liabilty. They think the management does nothing but make phone calls. To workers who think they get screwed i say go out on your own. Be your own boss. Then tell me about management attitude. Sometimes management needs to push harder. That's what they do. Workers don't always perform to potenial. I can't figure out why people have a problem with people who want to make money. That's why we work. Again if you don't like your company open your own shop. Then you'll at least earn respect.:boxing:


One most excellent idea, every drywall man should give serious consideration.:thumbsup:
jdl


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## rettt (Mar 31, 2008)

1wallboardsman said:


> One most excellent idea, every drywall man should give serious consideration.:thumbsup:
> jdl


To make it a short reply -- :boxing:The sweat running down the back of my shirt is worth more money then the cell phone contractors setting in the truck and running to the nearest waffle house setting on his rear end inflated attitudes time . And yes i run my business myself its not easy . Have a nice day . And try to get off the truck seat and set your cell phone down more often ! by the way about your reply to my post being ignorant -- your very welcome to bring your cell phone and your nice new truck and make sure you wear your best dress slacks might as well put your golf shoes on splash some good smelling after shave on then drive to see me . Then step out of your truck snap your cell phone on your nice leather holster walk up to me and look me right in the eye and tell me i made a ignorant post , then after you come too from being knocked out and you look for a few of your teeth and wipe the dirt from your pretty shirt , your attitude will have a new out look on life . Keep the posts coming and try to reframe from condescending statements which reflect a antisocial aspect !


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

rettt said:


> To make it a short reply -- :boxing:The sweat running down the back of my shirt is worth more money then the cell phone contractors setting in the truck and running to the nearest waffle house setting on his rear end inflated attitudes time . And yes i run my business myself its not easy . Have a nice day . And try to get off the truck seat and set your cell phone down more often ! by the way about your reply to my post being ignorant -- your very welcome to bring your cell phone and your nice new truck and make sure you wear your best dress slacks might as well put your golf shoes on splash some good smelling after shave on then drive to see me . Then step out of your truck snap your cell phone on your nice leather holster walk up to me and look me right in the eye and tell me i made a ignorant post , then after you come too from being knocked out and you look for a few of your teeth and wipe the dirt from your pretty shirt , your attitude will have a new out look on life . Keep the posts coming and try to reframe from condescending statements which reflect a antisocial aspect !


 
Once again your ignorance shows. If you read any of my posts you would see i'm not a suit. By the way you quoted the wrong person. The post wasn't meant to insult you. If you took it that way tough crap. I would love for you to knock me out so not only is your post ignorant you are ignorant. You have a lot to learn. So take your crap attitude back to school and grow up. Show some class and respect for the profession. Then maybe you'll be worth something. Have a nice day.


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## rettt (Mar 31, 2008)

*not in this life bro*



butcherman said:


> Once again your ignorance shows. If you read any of my posts you would see i'm not a suit. By the way you quoted the wrong person. The post wasn't meant to insult you. If you took it that way tough crap. I would love for you to knock me out so not only is your post ignorant you are ignorant. You have a lot to learn. So take your crap attitude back to school and grow up. Show some class and respect for the profession. Then maybe you'll be worth something. Have a nice day.


 Easy to flame a web forum . You have a nice life my friend and stay alert with that attitude you will get your attitude ajusted sooner or later !


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## rettt (Mar 31, 2008)

*butcherman and his ego*



savant said:


> :2guns::gun_bandana::wheelchair:
> 
> uh, oh. DrywallTalk's WW1.
> 
> ...


 let the forum flame war begin


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

Just another tough guy.


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

I don't recall threatning you. I stated opinions you don't like. So if your ever in Monroe county P.A. let me know. I could use an attitude adjustment. Until then keep making empty treats. But try to add something construtive to your posts.


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## taper71 (Dec 9, 2007)

I wouldn't worry about him butcherman. Hes probably just slow at work, going broke , and peed off at the guys who actually saved money for times like these. I drive a brand new truck and have a fancy gold cell phone . I think its the LG shine. cost me $500 for it.


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

No worries here friend. Can we trade rides and cell phones? By the way the times are changing. Even though the last three weeks were slow i was working and the next two weeks i'll be falling behind. Plus the calls are coming in fast and furious. Just ride it out it's easier then 1990 if you remember that.


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## Brockster (Dec 15, 2007)

Things are getting better here too! It seems like every time I start to really get worried, work comes in and then I kick myself for not relaxing when I had the chance...


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## Brockster (Dec 15, 2007)

BTW, every forum has at least one anal wart.


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

Brockster said:


> Things are getting better here too! It seems like every time I start to really get worried, work comes in and then I kick myself for not relaxing when I had the chance...


 
Yeah these cycles come and go every few years. Anticipate more work when the stimulus program kicks in. By then the economy will be going up and the stimulus will boost it. Ride it out.


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## cooper (Apr 6, 2008)

butcherman said:


> Yeah these cycles come and go every few years. Anticipate more work when the stimulus program kicks in. By then the economy will be going up and the stimulus will boost it. Ride it out.


While I don't believe we are going into some great depression like Alan Greenspan says--I don't think you should be quite this optimistic. I live in the northwest which has been the least affected by the housing slump so things really haven't been too bad here. In the last year when it has been real slow across america I think the fewest number of hours I have worked was probably about 38 and that was just for one week. I usually work around 50, but I looked at it as more of a break. 

However, I do believe these mortgage issues are going to continue and these large lending companies are going to continue to have problems. The Bear Stearns being sold was a monumental deal. They fun 100s of banks and they were nearly bankrupt. That would of had an unprecedented ripple effect. Could have thrown us into a major recession.... 

But I say smile and keep trucking on. As of now I am still booked out until probably about mid-June or later so you won't hear any complaints from me. 

I do high end drywall work and focus on quality and what I have noticed in this area is a lot of builders dropping their cheap drywallers to improve the quality of their houses. So maybe all of this is a good thing. I have picked up 3 new decent builders in the last 6 months for this reason.


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

I hear you. But there are trends in construction and right away people hit the panic button which in turn effects wall street and so on. This is also an election year so the politicians on both sides will get off their asses to prevent what ever. If you ever notice the cycles in these times there are slowdowns 6 months before major elections. Times pick up three months before the election. Then after is a crap shoot. Then again it's all a crap shoot. But as you say a lot of the competition gets weeded out due to many reasons. So you pick up more contractors. But in talking to framers they are busy which in turn means a month from now who follows. While the mortgage companies shoot themselves in the foot by making the same mistakes they made 6 years ago (due to government pressure). We should see a short term gain.


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## rabb (Mar 22, 2008)

*hmmmm*

the sun play a big big big part in drywall ,not just a bad job!! the job could be the best mr sun is a m.f


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

I found alot of help fully tips from old-school finishers that helps me achieve a nice quality finish. The clip lamp is the best tool. If you can put some cartboard in the windows and make the area dark, you will see everything with the lamp. Old school finishers are good, but to have them hourly, there too slow because they like to always talk about what they know and what they did. The younger guys keep their mouths shut, and work.

Anyways,

I would not pay those fools who did a **** ass job, because everyone thinks there finishers now-a-days, and if you come up to me and tell me you finish, you better really know how to finish. Why should I pay for your mistakes? If you do a half -assed job, you get paid half- assed. All my finishing is level 4 or 5, and if some crew of finishers come in and do a **** job, I'm going to make them fix it. I always tell the crews to sand with lamps and its going to be check with lamps before they decide to take on the job.


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## OLDSKOOL TAPER (Jun 19, 2008)

*Chill out!!!!!!!*

Over the pond in ,not to aggressive England:whistling2:Being "relentless "translates to to"He's a right wanker to work for!"just joking!I have my own jointing company,and you don't want to work for me cos I'm a right capitalist pig!:whistling2:seriously though chaps,it doesn't matter what job you do wether ,worker/manager or whatever,you sometimes run into the siege mentality of "us and them" it's not good but some people can,t help themselves.So lets all have a group hug and get back to being friends(even if it is through gritted teeth)By the way it's hard to keep a straight face if you come face to face with an employer or employee who have a number of teeth missing after an altiction,just because they agreed to disagree.Just to answer the post about bad workmanship,we hold a retention on there pay check,so we have a bit of leverage with them, in case we need them to go back and fix any thing the client isn't happy with.If they are good finishes ,the next time they work with us we don't hold retention back,It's always best to put your cards on the table ,so every one knows what's expected .:thumbsup:


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

Damn, I just THOUGHT the forums on the JLC site got good!!


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## 1wallboardsman (Feb 20, 2008)

joepro0000 said:


> I found alot of help fully tips from old-school finishers that helps me achieve a nice quality finish. The clip lamp is the best tool. If you can put some cartboard in the windows and make the area dark, you will see everything with the lamp. Old school finishers are good, but to have them hourly, there too slow because they like to always talk about what they know and what they did. The younger guys keep their mouths shut, and work.


:laughing: RRRRrrrriiigggghhhhtttttt. That must be why the rate has been increased so dramatically in the last 35 years. Todays young studs really know how to produce.

jdl


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## HawaiiBuilder (Jan 11, 2009)

Just pay them, finish it yourself and take that as a lesson.

Been through this before. Even if they do agree to come back to touch up, it will still not be good enough and having guys on the job drudging around with negative attitudes complaining about losing money on this job is just not worth it. Just brings everyone else down.

I'm a General also, started doing my own drywall hanging and taping with crew because of this. Smaller remodels and additions, less than 150 boards. Finding out that others here are doing the same on residential. Will at least break even on drywall portion for a house or remodel contract because of the experience factor but definately have control over the quality. If you pay them for competed work and have to go back to redo, then it is lost money. On larger jobs...may try bidding by hiring sub to hang, string tape and first coat then find someone you can trust to take it to finish. Nice walls which are flat with crisp straight corners ar the marks of a quality project, which will put a smile on the owners face, which I feel is worth a couple of extra days to accomplish and will lead to more refferals.

I know this in my opion to be the most problematic portion of a job. Hiring a drywall sub, whether their reputation preceeds them or not. It all depends on which tapers are sent out to do your job, as some generals will request a certain lead person and have that in writing. I am certainly willing to pay a little extra for that piece of mind. 

Good Luck,

KLB:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Age old problem. Back up to builder's complaint. Did it look like s*** because the work really sucked or because the builder put Semi-gloss on it. All the touch-up over lights won't help a bit if you exceed flat on a Level 4. I've begun calling out paint sheen on estimates. If they want Eggshell they must pay for the extra work. If it's s***** work then get some guys who are proud of their work and stand behind their finished product. They are out there. If the builder want a Volkswagen price and bitches cause you don't bring the Cadillac, find new builder. Easier said than done.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

rettt said:


> To make it a short reply -- :boxing:The sweat running down the back of my shirt is worth more money then the cell phone contractors setting in the truck and running to the nearest waffle house setting on his rear end inflated attitudes time . And yes i run my business myself its not easy . Have a nice day . And try to get off the truck seat and set your cell phone down more often ! by the way about your reply to my post being ignorant -- your very welcome to bring your cell phone and your nice new truck and make sure you wear your best dress slacks might as well put your golf shoes on splash some good smelling after shave on then drive to see me . Then step out of your truck snap your cell phone on your nice leather holster walk up to me and look me right in the eye and tell me i made a ignorant post , then after you come too from being knocked out and you look for a few of your teeth and wipe the dirt from your pretty shirt , your attitude will have a new out look on life . Keep the posts coming and try to reframe from condescending statements which reflect a antisocial aspect !


Thank you rettt Thank you,,,,,,,,,,,THANK YOU!:notworthy:Boy's this say's It all.Just because you have capital too hold a class A licenses DOES NOT make you a class A contractor.. LEARN THE TRADE FIRST!!!


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

Close this thread.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

fu


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

This thread started Feb 12, 2008! Wowzer! I'm not sure I was born yet!!


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Tim0282 said:


> This thread started Feb 2, 2008! Wowzer! I'm not sure I was born yet!!


:lol:


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

Had to correct my post. It was Feb. 12, 2008. inch:


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## butcherman (Jan 26, 2008)

It does bring back memories.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

You say close the thread ,, then a day later your viewing the thread:blink::blink: great thread,,, agree?


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## evolve991 (Jan 24, 2008)

How did I miss this one Que the Batman fight sound effects:thumbsup:


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

moore said:


> You say close the thread ,, then a day later your viewing the thread:blink::blink: great thread,,, agree?


Since I keep all threads I post in subscribed, I go back for two reasons:

1)To check back and look at my awesome posts.:smartass:

2)To see what stupid replies have been made since my awesome posts.


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

evolve991 said:


> How did I miss this one Que the Batman fight sound effects:thumbsup:


 Queue.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Bevelation said:


> Since I keep all threads I post in subscribed, I go back for two reasons:
> 
> 1)To check back and look at my awesome posts.:smartass:
> 
> 2)To see what stupid replies have been made since my awesome posts.


your a piece of work:yes:


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## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

moore said:


> your a piece of work:yes:


 You're.


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