# Starting on boxes this week any handy tips



## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

Hey guys long time no chat finnaly got my first set of flatboxs got the tapepro superlight set 8" & 12" 100mm handle and the shorty handle to go with them any handy tips for using them or helpful videos I can watch I have used them a few times before but seem to be struggling a little with mud consistency and handling doing alot of afs vertical joints to cement board with high shoulders any tips would be great cheers lads


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Yeah Mate, Get another tapepro handle and a set of blades so you can do this and make your life very easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPuk9TuGpNc


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

That post was for Irees as well, That's how I deal with pinholes dude, Takes care of it all, Pinholes, laps, excess mud or misses.

Also mud thickness is vital so change it around a bit, thin, thick, in between so you get a feel for it all, If its not going to well often its mud thickness.

See the screw, Tighten it and it locks the head, I think tapepros are the only handle like this.

Hope the tapepro team are ok with that post, Any problems and I can change the title.


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## loudcry184 (Jan 26, 2014)

Put dish soap in the mud and throw the blade away. Saves me a ton of time.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

loudcry184 said:


> Put dish soap in the mud and throw the blade away. Saves me a ton of time.


 How many times do you run a seam with the box.


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## P.E.I.Taper (May 4, 2015)

What kind of knife is that colin? Makes it all look prettt effortless


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

P.E.I.Taper said:


> What kind of knife is that colin? Makes it all look prettt effortless


 It is effort less, After 5 years of running boxes im still amazed how fast and easy it is now after spending 12 or so years hand troweling the lot. Its just a standard type of knife blade, Just like any 10 inch knife without handle on it, Instead it has two holes for bolts and wingnuts so it will fit onto a box handle but the real trick is the fact tapepros box handle can be fixed at an angle, Any knife fixed to a pole cant do that, And I cant see how backwiping is slower than boxing because if you box a seam twice then that's the same as boxing and backwiping which removes and crown, pinholes, laps, excess mud or missed spots.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Sweendog87 said:


> doing alot of afs vertical joints to cement board with high shoulders any tips would be great cheers lads


The way I do verticals is to start from the bottom of the wall, with the handle a little less than even with the floor. Lock your handle and lift the wheels slightly off the wall, and keep them slightly off the wall, for easier pushing. Push in on the box while at the same time pulling up on the handle. Go as high as you comfortable can. Then turn the box over and pull down, starting as high as you comfortably can. You can lock wheels out for that, as well, if wanted, but there's trade offs by doing that, which you'll find out when you try wheels on the wall and wheels off the wall.

When you get to where the 2 mud runs meet, keep pulling down a bit further, while backing off pushing on the box. That'll leave you less of a lift mark and will finish off nicely the intersecting runs.

I have an extendable handle. If I have to go higher I'll extend it and pull down from higher up, locking out the wheels till I get part way down, to help with push. Or I'll jump on stilts or a stool and do the top part after. 

For high shoulders, if my 1st boxing is showing such areas by how things dried, I'll swing my next boxing over to the low side at those spots, to help start feathering the spots out. If that doesn't do it enough in some areas, I'll hand coat those spots after.
Or you can run straight through and hand coat the spots after.


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

loudcry184 said:


> Put dish soap in the mud and throw the blade away. Saves me a ton of time.



Is any dishwashing liquid ok to use and how much do u put to a bucket of top coat


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## loudcry184 (Jan 26, 2014)

Sweendog87 said:


> Is any dishwashing liquid ok to use and how much do u put to a bucket of top coat
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, brand doesn't matter, i get the cheapest one. Not sure how much I exactly put in, just squeeze it for a second or two. It may be 1 or 2 tablespoons. I only go over my seems once and I do not have any issues with pinholes. It could be the consistency of the mud i use as well as the way I run my box. I keep the brake locked on the handle the whole time and run the wheels about a half inch off the wall. Takes a lot less effort to push and you can run your mud a little bit thicker since its easier to push. 

I was trained on boxes without wheels so I had no choice . I got used it and like it a lot better then using the wheels. Pushes a lot easier and can use thicker mud without pushing your guts out. It allows the mud to dry faster and has less shrinkage. Mine are nearly flat after the first coat. I set my box so it leaves a slight crown when its wet. When it dries it shrinks done to almost flat after the first coat. The second coat i use the same technique, slight crown and it dries nice and flat.


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## loudcry184 (Jan 26, 2014)

cazna said:


> How many times do you run a seam with the box.


I only do it once per coat.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Sweendog87 said:


> Hey guys long time no chat finnaly got my first set of flatboxs got the tapepro superlight set 8" & 12" 100mm handle and the shorty handle to go with them any handy tips for using them or helpful videos I can watch I have used them a few times before but seem to be struggling a little with mud consistency and handling doing alot of afs vertical joints to cement board with high shoulders any tips would be great cheers lads


I tried to use boxes once on cement board and wasn't happy with the result, washed it and packed it up and started old fashion again. 

I use villaboard just in wet areas and outside and always use James Hardie basecoat and topcoat which doesn't go well with boxes + the boards are too dusty

Now, with this in mind my question is *where do you use villaboard? and what basecoat and topcoat use with it?*


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

I use Gyprock usg 60 Base on first coat and Gyprock easy finish for top coat but the walls are not Villa they are a a pre fabricated wall with steel in the middle and cement sheers on the outside that interlock with more and then they pump cement inside thought the steel so they double as inside outside walls and is structural also pretty cool but not the best to set the only place we use villa is in the bathrooms and we just tape them them they are fully tiled 


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

Here's a sleek peek of my new kit 


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## mld (Jul 2, 2012)

Nice tools, dog, mix your mud a little on the thick side to start and run that short handle. Cleaner that way and you get a feel for the boxes faster.


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

With the shorty handle Sween, you can put the heel of your hand on the plate and your fingers on the body of the box. As you run along the wall use the pressure of your fingers to help push the mud out, it has a booster box effect:thumbsup:.


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

Thats what I did had a great run today with both boxes and love that shorty handle all the boys are jealous only two problems my 8" box is leaving a edge and not feathering like I need how much do u need to adjust it's leaving a fair size edge and do I do this by turning the 2 screws on the edge of the blade and my second problem was pin holes on my top coat I put dishwashing liquid like loudcry said but didn't help and I do chase behind with a 16" broadknife on a pole 


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Sweendog87 said:


> Thats what I did had a great run today with both boxes and love that shorty handle all the boys are jealous only two problems my 8" box is leaving a edge and not feathering like I need how much do u need to adjust it's leaving a fair size edge and do I do this by turning the 2 screws on the edge of the blade and my second problem was pin holes on my top coat I put dishwashing liquid like loudcry said but didn't help and I do chase behind with a 16" broadknife on a pole
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Yes check those outer screws, They sound like they need a little adjustment, Maybe a turn or two to bring the edge of the blade up slighty, You may need to do that every few houses, Sometimes they can work out loose, I had to do that to my 7 and 10 box last week. And I always get pin holes, That's why I posted that clip for you to see, It solves everything or just tape a knife to a pole for now. and 16 is a bit wide, I have a 10 I use behind the 7box which is in that clip and a 14 for behind the 10 and 12 boxes.

I would like 12 blade for behind the the box though, Just haven't got one yet.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Sweendog87 said:


> my second problem was pin holes on my top coat I put dishwashing liquid like loudcry said but didn't help and I do chase behind with a 16" broadknife on a pole


You can get pin holes even when you do by hand because you put too much topcoat.It's the same with the boxes.After you run the box forward and backwards, check how much topcoat the box leaves on the joint with broadknife...but not 16" - it's too big in my opinion. My 14" just touches the mud and leaves a small line - 2 mm deep- that disappears when sanding.

Be careful how much liquid soap you use because it'll make your your toapcoat very soft and you have problems when sanding

And give topcoat a good mix before you use it


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Sweendog87 said:


> Thats what I did had a great run today with both boxes and love that shorty handle all the boys are jealous only two problems my 8" box is leaving a edge and not feathering like I need how much do u need to adjust it's leaving a fair size edge and do I do this by turning the 2 screws on the edge of the blade and my second problem was pin holes on my top coat I put dishwashing liquid like loudcry said but didn't help and I do chase behind with a 16" broadknife on a pole
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Adjust the screws so as the blade is about the thickness of a finger nail proud of the blade holder. Never let it get down level with the blade holder, you will start wearing out the holder and the shoes. In all the years of using boxes I have never had to replace blade holder or shoes. I know blokes that replace them regularly, not needed in my opinion. 
And as Keke said if you are getting large pin holes chances are you are putting on too much mud. 16 inch knife is over kill. I use an 8" after the 7" box a 12" after the 10" & a 14" after the 12" box.
Take a drive and come and spen a day with me, I will have you boxing like a veteran in no time.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

gazman said:


> And as Keke said if you are getting large pin holes chances are you are putting on too much mud. 16 inch knife is over kill. I use an 8" after the 7" box a 12" after the 10" & a 14" after the 12" box.


we use the same system... we'd make a great team


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

Would love too but never get a spare day let alone week it would be nice to have some help since my boss has his head stuck so far up his own ass he thinks if he helps me too much I will get better than him you have helped out alot more already I will adjust the blade regularly and will try less mud next time and not worry about the dishwasher liquid and see also will get a 14" knife for chasing 


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Also have a play with your thickness adjustments may help with pinholes 


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Here is another option

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDy2T0gbtDE&feature=youtu.be


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

So u know where I can buy one of those? And what there name is so I can find online 


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Sweendog87 said:


> So u know where I can buy one of those? And what there name is so I can find online
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is all I know, Call Wallboard tools. I wish they did online sales as well. I want a set of the three twister blades in stainless.

*Contact Us*

*Gold Coast Head Office*

Email: [email protected]
Customer Service: [email protected]
Accounts Payable: [email protected]
Accounts Recievable: [email protected]
Marketing: [email protected]

30 Leda Drive
West Burleigh QLD 4219
Ph: 1300 653 177
International Ph: +61 7 5535 7655
Fax: 1300 657 442


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

You can get these from plastering supplies gaz by advance tools 










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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

But I'm just gonna get this and put the Knifes iv got on it with my paint pole will do the same thing for $15


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

Can anyone post the links to other helpful threads for boxes cheers been looking but can't find any


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

cazna said:


> Yeah Mate, Get another tapepro handle and a set of blades so you can do this and make your life very easy.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPuk9TuGpNc



Hey caz after taping how many coats to u Do and do u use base at all 


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Sweendog87 said:


> Hey caz after taping how many coats to u Do and do u use base at all
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Here we go, This could start a debate and a half.

Yes I use base for taping flats through a homax banjo and on walls I tend to wipe the tape in then use that mud and backfill over tape again, Not so easy to do that on ceilings but sometimes I do, I like to, Getting that base in there is good insurance, Straight air dry muds are a little risky for me because of weather conditions, Ive done it many times but delayed shrinkage can bite me and has done before.

After that a quick tight 7 box which is what im doing in that clip to smooth and bring things level, Then a 10 which starts to show high shoulders so I carefully try and level those etc then a 12 box.

I back wipe the lot to remove pin holes and take the crown off, Ive also over crowned trying to deal with high shoulders before as well and you don't want that, Boxes are a great tool but they can kick you, HARD. an over crowned boxed seam is the most awful looking thing once its painted and you see it and you will only really understand when you do it and get caught, So is delayed shrinkage, that's why I do so many coats, Let each one dry, Not to thick.

Many will disagree with that, But it works for me, Solves all issues, and gains me more work than I can do.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

And that plastic knife holder you found, Well done, It should get you going but I dout very much its as good as the box handle blade, Having the blade fixed at two points like a box is a very solid connection and you can control a lot with it, Its almost a trowel/knife as well, You can put mud where you want, Like one side of a high shoulder etc.


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

What setting do u use and what do u suggest i do with only a 8" box and a12" cause I dont have a 10" and can't afford out for a while should I 8" 8" 12" or 8" 12" 12" and should I use base on only the first coat after taping 


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## loudcry184 (Jan 26, 2014)

I let my boxes leave a slight crown when coating, they dry flat or slightly hollow because of shrinkage.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Sweendog87 said:


> What setting do u use and what do u suggest i do with only a 8" box and a12" cause I dont have a 10" and can't afford out for a while should I 8" 8" 12" or 8" 12" 12" and should I use base on only the first coat after taping
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Each box blade has different tension so each one requires a different setting at the time and it depends on the mud to a point as well, Heavy mud pushes on the blade more than a lighter mud so different setting again. We all will say different things but I regard the 10 as a very important box as its the high shoulder getter. You could use base after taping but make it tight, You don't want to sand through and hit that, It depends on your board as well, You might have sweet board with little to no higher shoulders so your sweet with 8 then 12, You just need some practice and time doing it and look back over your work once its painted as well, Then you will start to see things and get an idea of what works and changes you need to make.

Another important step is rough sanding between coats, 100g on a Wooster tri sander on a pole, Just a pass, But that removes crumbs and lets you box cleaner.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Sweendog87 said:


> Can anyone post the links to other helpful threads for boxes cheers been looking but can't find any
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This thread was interesting. Some good info between the bickering. :yes: 

http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/boxes-waste-time-3074/ A fun read anyway!!


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## mld (Jul 2, 2012)

moore said:


> This thread was interesting. Some good info between the bickering. :yes:
> 
> http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/boxes-waste-time-3074/ A fun read anyway!!


That was a good one, Moore. 
So, how are you running your angles these days?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

mld said:


> So, how are you running your angles these days?


.....


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## mld (Jul 2, 2012)

moore said:


> .....


With a little training my screw spotter attachment would work with that as well.


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

Another important step is rough sanding between coats, 100g on a Wooster tri sander on a pole, Just a pass, But that removes crumbs and lets you box cleaner.[/QUOTE]


I like to sand between coats the other guys think I'm crazy they just scrap all the time and kev first coat wide open with base I dint know how he gets away with it but he has his top coat as thick as it can run I am hand sanding at the moment but would a pole sander be better?
And what's a wooster

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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

One of these with 100g on it, Firm backed foam, Just a pass to remove the crumbs on a pole between coats.


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

Could u use an electric sander also someone said the dust left after sanding can cause pinholes in the top coat what's your thought on that 


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Sweendog87 said:


> Could u use an electric sander also someone said the dust left after sanding can cause pinholes in the top coat what's your thought on that


what?  i hope you don't believe it


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Sweeny if your running base second coat this is what I do, jump on stilts with with 6 or 8 inch when it's green one run down each edge gets away all the lumps and edges then scrape overlaps flat 



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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

If your using All purpose as second coat sand away 


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

cazna said:


> Many will disagree with that, But it works for me, Solves all issues, and gains me more work than I can do.


Tapping with just wipe down followed by 10"and 12" means 2 coats....maybe you can go with this shortcut...but be prepared....

The proper way - which I never had a problem with - is 3 coats: tapping, prefill ( with the same mud or after with a box), followed by 10" and 12". Now... how can someone disagree with this?


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

Believe what keke pinholes cause of dust? I only thought so because I hand sanded the edges of my first coat and got heaps of pinholes in topcoat but wasn't sure just read it somewhere on here thought maybe but I think now it's because I had box too open 


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

And I'm gonna start 3 coating all this time now and just have the boxes tighter 3 tight coats instead of 2 full coats I only have and 8" and 12" boxes no 10 yet so il just double 12" and skim the top come up nice last unit I did 


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

And fixed pinholes 


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Aussiecontractor said:


> If your using All purpose as second coat sand away Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I will not do that ..... Dust on the board=problem for top coat


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

What problems keke


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Sweendog87 said:


> Believe what keke pinholes cause of dust? I only thought so because I hand sanded the edges of my first coat and got heaps of pinholes in topcoat but wasn't sure just read it somewhere on here thought maybe but I think now it's because I had box too open Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dust creats bigger problems than pinholes....dust creates the craters not the pinholes


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

I should probably add that I mean just run over the edges and overlaps lightly not sand the whole join 


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## Oldtimer (May 6, 2015)

keke said:


> Dust creats bigger problems than pinholes....dust creates the craters not the pinholes


 I believe this might come down to maybe the brand of mud used and how it's applied. I have been rough sanding (100 grit) between coats for more than 30 years and have never had an issue with pinholes (craters).
In fact sanding between coats lets me run a tighter finish coat than if I didn't. I use an All-Purpose mud for setting tapes and "all" coats. The only time I get pinholes is when the board butts up to a surface that does not draw out the moister like drywall. For example a painted surface or tile (cement) board.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Aussiecontractor said:


> I should probably add that I mean just run over the edges and overlaps lightly not sand the whole join
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


A light rough sand! I do the same.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Sweendog87 said:


> Could u use an electric sander also someone said the dust left after sanding can cause pinholes in the top coat what's your thought on that
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Over kill, slow, and not needed, Just a pass with one of those woosters is plenty, Hardly any dust when you do that, I first started rough sanding with finer girts which needed more passes which created dust. The Wooster is hard and flat foam backed so will cut mud fast, Soft foam can ride over the crumbs and not take them down as fast.



keke said:


> Tapping with just wipe down followed by 10"and 12" means 2 coats....maybe you can go with this shortcut...but be prepared....
> 
> The proper way - which I never had a problem with - is 3 coats: tapping, prefill ( with the same mud or after with a box), followed by 10" and 12". Now... how can someone disagree with this?


Im not disagreeing, taping, prefill,10 and 12 is four coats, Often I do the prefill with 7 box on lids so its the same as what im doing, Or sometimes I prefill with base im taping with then 7 10 and 12, You haven't seen my rain fall here or the forests im living in, Can be very very damp. Here take a look, My back yard this morn, Theres bush covered hills up there not far away and you cant even see them, Imagine what 5 weeks of that does to house trying to tape it an do, Then along comes summer or owners move in and heat the place up, It can shrink to hell, Timber ceiling battens are a curse, Muds only going to dry to its surrounding conditions, Yes I try an heat and dehumid as well but that only goes so far, That's why I prefer many thin coats sometimes.


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

Cool been cazna I like that idea heavy grit so I just pass once on Either side and over finish marks plus pole sander is alot lighter than a power sander 


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> I believe this might come down to maybe the brand of mud used and how it's applied.


Problem with boxes is that the mud on the underside of the boxes will pick up dust as you run along a sanded seam, and will at times leave clumps of that dust behind in spots - enough that any mud on top of the dust won't bond, so you can get mud craters. That can often happen more near the beginning of a run, from the dust picked up on the previous run.

One solution: Have a 5-6" knife in your pocket and knife the underside mud back into the box after a couple runs, or after a longer run. It'll mix in enough with the wet mud.

Other solution: Light sand previous coat, so you don't get so much dust being picked up.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> I use an All-Purpose mud for setting tapes and "all" coats.


The head taper for a company I'm doing some contract work for showed their office staff awhile ago why they shouldn't be using AP for taping most jobs. He put one tape on with AP and another with taping mud. Next day, the AP one pulled off, while the taping mud one wouldn't. Not sure if he used CertainTeed Lite muds or Synko Lite. Probably CertainTeed.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

JustMe said:


> The head taper for a company I'm doing some contract work for showed their office staff awhile ago why they shouldn't be using AP for taping most jobs. He put one tape on with AP and another with taping mud. Next day, the AP one pulled off, while the taping mud one wouldn't. Not sure if he used CertainTeed Lite muds or Synko Lite. Probably CertainTeed.


Setting tape with taping and float coats with topping makes it easier to sand than AP. We never had AP on the job.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

keke said:


> The proper way - which I never had a problem with - is 3 coats: tapping, prefill ( with the same mud or after with a box), followed by 10" and 12". Now... how can someone disagree with this?


Proper way is whatever gets the job done properly without adding in more than needed.

I don't find prefill is needed for my situation. 8" followed by 12" does the job for me.

But I'll run both boxes twice, on tight settings. Leaves little to sand, and little to fix. Saves time for me that way, I find.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

MrWillys said:


> Setting tape with taping and float coats with topping makes it easier to sand than AP. We never had AP on the job.


Topping mud is for those who put too much on and have to sand it off.  

There's little sanding needed if things are done right enough - with AP or topping mud.

Job I finished yesterday - a school reno - was stocked with finish mud. I would've preferred AP. It finishes smoother and with less grit in it. At least the muds we use. Also had pinhole issues in a few spots with the topping mud. Doesn't hold together like AP, I find.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

The best finish mud for me could be something like 1/2 AP and 1/2 finish mud, mixed together.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

JustMe said:


> Proper way is whatever gets the job done properly without adding in more than needed.
> 
> I don't find prefill is needed for my situation. 8" followed by 12" does the job for me.
> 
> But I'll run both boxes twice, on tight settings. Leaves little to sand, and little to fix. Saves time for me that way, I find.


The 2buck double box? So no tape line to deal with on sand day?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

moore said:


> The 2buck double box? So no tape line to deal with on sand day?


I don't have topping muds here.. all A/P


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

JustMe said:


> Topping mud is for those who put too much on and have to sand it off.
> 
> There's little sanding needed if things are done right enough - with AP or topping mud.
> 
> Job I finished yesterday - a school reno - was stocked with finish mud. I would've preferred AP. It finishes smoother and with less grit in it. At least the muds we use. Also had pinhole issues in a few spots with the topping mud. Doesn't hold together like AP, I find.



So what muds do use thru all processes taping first coat second coat and skim coat if u Do skim after 


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