# Joints humped, metal framing. Why?



## Durabond-Don (Jul 11, 2009)

Ok.

I have been a union commercial finisher for a long time. All metal stud framing, with sheets stood straight up.


Far too often, you think you done a great job only to see the joints humped after paint. Especially when looking sideways down the wall or in sunlight. And when you run your hand down the wall you can feel them. 

Can you offer some possible causes to this? Maybe not squeezing enough mud when taping, thus humping the mud would be the only way to cover the tape?

btw. I am a hand taper/finisher. Very seldom are tools used on my jobs.


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm not experienced with metal studs but could it be the tape coat isn't bone dry before the next coat.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

I think the humping of seams is the most common problem .... usually there is always a high side over metal framing , this can be cause because of the framing itself the studs in which the are fasten on to the top and bottom tracks. The only solution is to fill the low side of the joint and feather it out . It is so much harder to deceive the eye especially in hallways but it can be done ... Most tapers put to much 2ND coat on (humping their joints) and then not enough sanding... the best solution is not to overcoat and don't over sand.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Have seen the same thing on long walls. My only solution is to skim to level 5.


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## Durabond-Don (Jul 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Have seen the same thing on long walls. My only solution is to skim to level 5.


 

Yes, level 5 helps, but that is mainly to give the walls the same texture, especially if the painter is skimpy with the paint.

But level 5 wont remove or hide humps.



I am thinking silverstilts got it right with his advice. Thanks guys.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

i think kiwiman and stilts hit it on the nail...

two most common problems, wood or metal: not enough drying time, and not enough sanding.


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## MudMonkey (Jun 9, 2009)

when i do stand up board I always double the width as if they were butt joints. The main reason you feel and see the bumps is that there are three studs. One on either side, half way over with a bevelled edge and then the problem...one stud in the center of the board pushing out on it. It happens because where you butt them up the edges are sucked down with the bevel but not the middle stud.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

I have a question Durabond-Don Is the drywall fire rated? If so I've noticed with some manufactures that the bevel they press in, humps out beyond the bevel making it thicker then the rest of the sheet, leaving the taper to use more fill to hide beyond that bevel. I find that this is the only way to fix such an issue, treat the seam as a butt joint. Anyone else find this, in this case?


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## rockdaddy (Jul 2, 2009)

sand the joints down before you skim.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

I still maintain using durabond and setting type compounds causes a "swell" that is near impossible to sand out. Our level 5 is done over a nearly perfectly sanded level 4. Don says he can feel them. Can he feel them prior to them being painted? Are they "perfect" when sanded and then they hump later? This is this very reason we don't use Durabond or setting type on slick finishes. Many of you may argue this point. It may be a regional issue, but we just can't make a slick finish with anything but drying type compounds.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

Like I've said in an other thread durabond is not meant for drywall finishing its imposable to sand and finish properly it does not absorb second coat of regular compounds properly once dried ether. I agree with Darren knowing some of you would argue this point and are Durabond headed in there ways.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2009)

Durabond-Don said:


> Ok.
> 
> I have been a union commercial finisher for a long time. All metal stud framing, with sheets stood straight up.
> 
> ...


You might want to take a close look at the seams with a straight edge before taping. If the drywall hangers screwed the wrong sheet first it will twist the stud and create a hump. Sometimes you won't notice the hump until you've already finished. The wall can be framed perfectly straight with a laser guide and still look twisted if the hangers don't follow proper guidelines.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

So, Mudstar, do you too feel there is a "swelling" of sorts that goes on down the road? That's what I seem to find. It looks great during the job, but 2 weeks or 2 months later, I can see every friggin spot a setting type was used. It is not imagination, too many other local guys have the same problem.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

I hate long walls like this, especially in commercial jobs (lobbys, hallways in particular)

we did a commercial building about 2 years ago, same thing as Darren described, as in it looks perfect during the job, even with straight edges....but 6 mos. later after walking to the long hallway on this particular job, you see humping, although minimal -- its still there. 

drives me nuts. Even after spraying with a hamilton prep coat after level 5'ing everything. some ppl blamed the painter, some ppl blamed us......overall, not any average person will see it. but us construction types with eyes for detail WILL see it and it just looks bad if you can spot it.

in the end, im positive it was our fault, as in we should've taken more care you could say........more lights.....more leveling....etc......but jobs like this, its really hard to say, especially like darren mentioned when everything looks PERFECT 'during'..........


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

Not sure its swelling Darren. I wonder if when the prime and paint that go on cause this issue. let me explain what I'm thinking here. If you are using setting type compounds, which I don't agree on using, gets primed and painted does it absorb the same as the regular compound or even the drywall itself does? I think not, but is it possible that the prime and paint sit on top of the joint and build up even more sealing it off and the prime and paint on the drywall absorb shrinking the paper and gypsum beneath it. Or maybe the drywall your finishing on could have some moisture in it from sitting in suppliers warehouses then dry out slowly over time ones installed shrinking and the compound has dried first before the inner gypsum causing this issue. I guess the only way to figure this out is to do a moisture reading on the gypsum in the warehouse then afterward. I really believe its not the finishers or painters fault for this imperfection and we all that take pride in are work, do the best job possible with the materials supplied and its the nature of the work that we strive for the perfection we all so want. I'm sure that we try to make the wall as flat as possible as most of us are perfectionist and its the material at fault here so with that said finishing drywall is just that and not truly perfect. I hope we can move on from here.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Mudstar said:


> Not sure its swelling Darren. I wonder if when the prime and paint that go on cause this issue. let me explain what I'm thinking here. If you are using setting type compounds, which I don't agree on using, gets primed and painted does it absorb the same as the regular compound or even the drywall itself does? I think not, but is it possible that the prime and paint sit on top of the joint and build up even more sealing it off and the prime and paint on the drywall absorb shrinking the paper and gypsum beneath it. Or maybe the drywall your finishing on could have some moisture in it from sitting in suppliers warehouses then dry out slowly over time ones installed shrinking and the compound has dried first before the inner gypsum causing this issue. I guess the only way to figure this out is to do a moisture reading on the gypsum in the warehouse then afterward. I really believe its not the finishers or painters fault for this imperfection and we all that take pride in are work, do the best job possible with the materials supplied and its the nature of the work that we strive for the perfection we all so want. I'm sure that we try to make the wall as flat as possible as most of us are perfectionist and its the material at fault here so with that said finishing drywall is just that and not truly perfect. I hope we can move on from here.


i agree with you, as far as moisture levels being the culprit........although it makes sense, its very impractical sad to say for us to read moisture levels of every sheet of drywall.

i WISH suppliers would do this, but no way in hell......unfortunately.

but mudstar, i think you are right......

if its not as something as simple as i mentioned before, i.e. not allowing the finishing work to dry properly btwn coats, then it most likely has to do with moisture levels seeping out long afterwards..........

either way, its a lose-lose situation for us DC's.


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## Durabond-Don (Jul 11, 2009)

You all make excellent points and I thank you for your replies.



I am about to start a stairway, that I just know there is no way to make it look right. How many of you can just look at the board before you start and just know it's going to be tough? It has very high walls, the joints are terrible, and add a ton of sunlight= I'm in for a mess.

I can usually tell just by looking at the joints if I am in for a rough time.


There are many factors that affect the board being humped or crowned. Bad framing, hanging, too much mud when taping (thus humping the joint to cover the tape), or when bedding (blocking) in, the taper also has a tendency to hump it on, not sanding enough.

I see many tapers just going through the motions. Tape, bed, skim, sand. Without any knowledge or cares about the finish product. They do every sheet the same process.

Speed is great. But maybe an extra 1-2 days to ensure quality is even better. I care about my work and I try to make sure the guys working for me do also. 


This is an excellent website that I look forward to learning a few tricks and maybe passing a few on. One thing about drywall finishing, you can always learn more.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Durabond-Don said:


> You all make excellent points and I thank you for your replies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


as far as the stairway is concerned (hopefully its not 'too big') depending on the curvature/radius of it, just accept the fact that you'll have to entirely skim the stairway walls at least 4-5 times. as well as the fact that you'll have to view it at least 6 times throughout the day, depending on where the sun is positioned and how the sunlight affects it.

I had a circular stairway that we finished on a big custom home months ago. when it was all said and done, my patchman ended up laying at least 5 skim coats, corner to corner on this entire stairway for it to look right. like i said, if your stairway is how i am thinking, youll have to view it multiple times, as in early morning....mid morning....noon......late noon.......evening (sunset) ......think you get my drift.

anyways, this website IS helpful Don........and im sure we all thank you for your comments......the usual crowd on here is MORE than helpful you'll find.

keep in mind, everyone on this site has a big ego....and thinks their way is the right way.

...but i never said that was a BAD thing! haha.......trust me.

good luck Don.


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## Durabond-Don (Jul 11, 2009)

Custom Drywall Svc. said:


> as far as the stairway is concerned (hopefully its not 'too big') depending on the curvature/radius of it, just accept the fact that you'll have to entirely skim the stairway walls at least 4-5 times. as well as the fact that you'll have to view it at least 6 times throughout the day, depending on where the sun is positioned and how the sunlight affects it.
> 
> I had a circular stairway that we finished on a big custom home months ago. when it was all said and done, my patchman ended up laying at least 5 skim coats, corner to corner on this entire stairway for it to look right. like i said, if your stairway is how i am thinking, youll have to view it multiple times, as in early morning....mid morning....noon......late noon.......evening (sunset) ......think you get my drift.
> 
> ...


 
You sound like a man who cares about quality. And thanks for the welcome.

I am a union finisher, and contrary to many opinions, I also care about quality and am a hard worker. I seen a few negative comments about union workers, please allow me a few lines to defend a little.

I leave my house at 4:15 am. Drive 2 hours to work, put in a hard 8, drive 2 hours home, eat, shower and go to bed. Most of the other union workers I see, also work their a$$es off. We care about making the company money. I do not ever "milk" jobs. A profitable job/company, ensures me and my fellow union workers more work. I hate guys who feel they are doing the company a favor by being there. I feel privileged to earn a decent living for slinging mud.

Are there lazy union workers? Sure. But there are lazy non union workers as well. There are good/bad workers everywhere in all trades, and aspects of the working society. 

Benny Hill once said something about people who assume.


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## brian mulligan (Jul 18, 2009)

This could be caused by the sheetrockers. With metal studs if you screw off the rigid side of the stud first ( where the steel forms a right angle) rather than the flexible side it will cause this humping effect.


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

Steve said:


> You might want to take a close look at the seams with a straight edge before taping. If the drywall hangers screwed the wrong sheet first it will twist the stud and create a hump. Sometimes you won't notice the hump until you've already finished. The wall can be framed perfectly straight with a laser guide and still look twisted if the hangers don't follow proper guidelines.


 
Exactly, this is the problem! The hanger's mess up the joints when rushing. 

Don, if you run a tape measure down the entire wall, do the studs land exactly in the middle of the 16 on center mark? Sometimes the joints on stand ups get humped out when there isn't much stud room. Alot of framers like to measure 16 over from the last stud, and this causes problems down the line of a long wall. eventually, you will loose a little, maybe space a stud 16 - 3/16" or 1/8" more and that adds up. I always use a 100 ft tape and lay out on the floor along side the studs and don't move it.


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## brian mulligan (Jul 18, 2009)

*Drywall humping*

Hi Don:

Screwing into the angled side of the metal stud causes the stud twist slightly because the angled side is rigid and has no give to it when a screw is inserted. If your taping a tapered joint and your using all purpose compound, the only other way you would create a hump is by not drawing enough compound out behind the tape when your applying the first coat. You sound like an good, experienced taper so I doubt this is the problem.


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## Durabond-Don (Jul 11, 2009)

Thanks guys for your replies. It gets so frustrating, seeing the joints a mess before I even start. When doing a huge commercial job, I don't have the time to bust every joint out. But then they always blame the finisher.


Thanks Brian, Joe, CDS.

And Rockdaddy, I always dust off before I skim. 

I am finishing a up a very big church. I never seen drywall so damp. I had to 4 coat the screws, with an extra coat on all joints, butts, and bead. 

Most turned out very good. I got many compliments. But the front wall is humped. You can see it and feel it. Looked good before the paint. Thanks for all the possible causes. I learned allot. :thumbsup:

I got to remember to take my camera Monday (my last day). If I remember, I will post pics. Im off to start a huge carpenter training school Tuesday, which I will probably be foreman.


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## rockdaddy (Jul 2, 2009)

Steve and Brian have it right. Hi - Lows are killers.


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## Crazytaper (Feb 23, 2008)

Thank you! I've found this happening more and more often lately. The hangers are screwing of the wrong side of the board first and twisting the metal. I can't float out every joint 18"! So you get that humpety-hump as you walk down the wall. blame it on the finishers- right?


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## eddie (Sep 15, 2009)

I blame the problem on flimsy light gauge metal studs. When you first sheet is screwed to the stud, it sucks the stud to the rock, automatically presenting an uneven stud. The side your next sheet is going to be screwed to is already sticking out farther than the last sheet you just hung. Once a butt joint or flat in this case is uneven, it always will be. It's just a matter of how far you are willing to float it out. Not to mention hanging horizontally increases the structural strength compared to standing the rock vertically.


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## Quality1st (Aug 1, 2008)

*Un Huh*

Eaxactly Eddie, well said. Standing the rock up is one way of doing it, but not the correct way. Ask any architect what the difference in strength ratio is. And if you give a damn, you,ll have it hung correctly. Nuff Said.:thumbsup:


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

I think standing sheets up on steel stud framing is fine. The only thing the steel is there to support is the drywall. Any force strong enough to rack a concrete building over is not going to be protected by horizontally hung drywall. I would never stand up sheets in wood frame construction. In that case i agree 100% on horizontal hanging adding structural integrity. JMO


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## hjrdrywal (Mar 14, 2009)

thas what i was thinking , some hangers don't realize it when they do hang the boards ,but now that the mtl studs have a creas in the middle you would think a hanger would figure out how to keep the joints in the middle of the stud ,and I have personaly done finshing and been there when the painters cut their paint and caused major flashing.when we run joints we try every possible way to give each step drying time .
+


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## atlasint1 (Sep 19, 2009)

You may want to check the sheetrock at the beginning of the factory recess. I have noticed on occasion that if you put a straightedge on the roll, it is slightly humped, that's why we always split our stand-up joints to 12 inches on either side prior to completion of level 5 finish (especially on light walls)


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## rockdaddy (Jul 2, 2009)

When you are doing stand ups on metal it is critical to insure that the first screws sunk are the ones on the WEAK side of the flange. Make sure the whole seam is screwed off before driving the screws on the STRONG side or else you will end up with the strong side being higher than the weak side creating a HI - Low situation thus humping your joints. There is nothing wrong with the sheetrock. One of the reasons for standing up on metal is so that there is continuous framing where the boards are fastened. You just have to know how to apply properly.


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## evolve991 (Jan 24, 2008)

brian mulligan said:


> This could be caused by the sheetrockers. With metal studs if you screw off the rigid side of the stud first ( where the steel forms a right angle) rather than the flexible side it will cause this humping effect.


 
:thumbup:BINGO!!! And DON'T think for a minute that the hangers aren't aware of this fact. When you screw the wrong side of the stud or run the rock the wrong direction the screws spin out and/or pop. This applies mostly on light guage metal,heavy guage retains its tensile strength and doesn't buckle. I'm 80%residential/20%commercial and even I know this


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## canodrywallc (Nov 17, 2009)

BRIAN MULLIGAN has the correct answer , vertical hanging in commercial work is common


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

rockdaddy said:


> When you are doing stand ups on metal it is critical to insure that the first screws sunk are the ones on the WEAK side of the flange. Make sure the whole seam is screwed off before driving the screws on the STRONG side or else you will end up with the strong side being higher than the weak side creating a HI - Low situation thus humping your joints. There is nothing wrong with the sheetrock. One of the reasons for standing up on metal is so that there is continuous framing where the boards are fastened. You just have to know how to apply properly.


Yes save this thread, this is very value-able info. Most hangers are not aware of the problem, and will not ever now if they are not told.


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## d-rock (Oct 21, 2009)

All these assessments sound accurate and to add my two cents, the main reason the rock should be stood up on metal stud is for fire rating. It is U.L. tested this way, so technically it's how it should be hung. On wood framing fire rating is not an issue. It's always better to railroad boards on wood framing because of the inconsistency and shrink factor of lumber, ESPECIALLY bearing walls. However, even on wood framing, boards could be stood up on non bearing walls. As far as humps in joints on metal stud walls, often, on furred walls, the framing is braced back to the concrete or whatever is behind it. Carpenters sometimes don't take the time to run jet-line on the framing before they brace the framing, therefore creating humps and dips. No matter what, I always make sure my tapers finish wide, and after examining the walls, if i see dips i have them flank it out. Seems it's the only way to get a perfect finish.


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## detroittaper (Dec 26, 2008)

Don, one thing you also have to consider is the effects of not maintaining a consistent temperature from the tape coat to sanding. If you tape/coat an area in cold temperatures, even if above freezing, then suddenly heat the building, the water will evaporate out of the mud so quickly it will swell the drywall joints. Working here in Michigan, we see it happen alot. Especially when the GC doesn't want to pay to heat buildings until it's absolutely necessary. Just something to consider.


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## Taper Rick (Jan 6, 2010)

I have seen this problem consistently across the board with steel studs. Many times the studs are twisted and or improper hanging (soft side first is the correct way). Before finishing take a wipe down blade 23'' and check the flats. Almost every time the knife will rock on the flat. Silverstilts was right. You need to fill the low side with the boxes both coats. Then if the flat is not yet right you need to bust the flat out on the low side by hand. Most finishers know about ugly hour, but it can be minimized.


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## fenez (Nov 30, 2009)

You guys do realize that to get a perfect finish you need to use plaster veneer, traditional drywal will always have inconsistancies that are out of the finishers control no matter how much care is taken, if a wall needs to be skimmed more than 2 times you should be veneering it.


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## akcajun (Dec 16, 2009)

for all my walls i like to sand with a pole sander then hit it with a sponge.. you can normally tell if its humping...but you can always check it with a 12 or 14 to see if it rocks or shows low...I normally do level 5...and smooth wall no matter what texture is going on unless its a stomp..lol


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## brian mulligan (Jul 18, 2009)

Hi Akcajun:

What is level 5?

Brian


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