# Learned something today



## taper71 (Dec 9, 2007)

So I was called back to a couple of houses that the Drywall Contractor said that the building superviser said were hollow where the mud turns into the round bead. basically he told me I over sanded the edge of the bead creating a hollow spot.

I spent all morning in both houses coating some of the bead that they ( building sup and drywall contractor) had marked. I called the Drywall Contractor who called the building sups and told him that I dont know what he's talking about that I am over coating the bead and not doing it anymore because it don t need it and I don t work for free.

Now from floor to ceiling on all the stand up corner bead you can see what I call a shadow that really makes the bead look like it is hollow where the mud ends and the round part of the bead starts. I have been beating myself up all day because I couldn't figure out what was the problem. I go around one of the houses with my straight edge showing the building sup that my bead is definately not hollow and that I am not doing any more coating on it unless I get paid for service work. He is arguing because he figures it is my fault.

What I learned today. What that shadow is , is a difference in the pigment of the tinted primer between the paper of the bead and the mud itself ( it soaks in differently and creats that shadow line that looks like hollow bead. This should go away if the painters do there job properly ( which they do. ) I have never given any of this thought until now because this has never been an issue that I have ever been called back for.
Just a rant and hopefully if anyone else runs into this problem you can use what I learned ( or maybe you already know and can relate ). I have another house that I just taped and beaded on the go and unless there is a change of attitude on both Contractor and sup I will have to walk away from it and lose some money.


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Cheers for sharing. Havent experenced this but funny what this trade can do sometimes.


----------



## michel1949 (Jul 21, 2010)

what if you would put a light on them i am sure they would see them differently


----------



## michel1949 (Jul 21, 2010)

sometime you look at a wall from an angle and if you look from another angle it looks different


----------



## proficient Mudder (Aug 28, 2010)

michel1949 said:


> what if you would put a light on them i am sure they would see them differently


My ex wife was like this, dang light made things so much more difficult.

Bill


----------



## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

proficient Mudder said:


> My ex wife was like this, dang light made things so much more difficult.
> 
> Bill


Putting the light on you or her?::whistling2:


----------



## proficient Mudder (Aug 28, 2010)

DSJOHN said:


> Putting the light on you or her?::whistling2:


I guess it depended on who was holding the light,lol.
Sorry off topic, just like to be funny sometimes.

Bill


----------



## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

proficient Mudder said:


> I guess it depended on who was holding the light,lol.
> Sorry off topic, just like to be funny sometimes.
> 
> Bill


I hear ya,,we all need to do that once and awhile:thumbsup:


----------



## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

taper71 said:


> So I was called back to a couple of houses that the Drywall Contractor said that the building superviser said were hollow where the mud turns into the round bead. basically he told me I over sanded the edge of the bead creating a hollow spot.
> 
> I spent all morning in both houses coating some of the bead that they ( building sup and drywall contractor) had marked. I called the Drywall Contractor who called the building sups and told him that I dont know what he's talking about that I am over coating the bead and not doing it anymore because it don t need it and I don t work for free.
> 
> ...



Flashing is a painters problem and he needs to learn how to properly prepare wall for paint.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

sounds like a painter did not do a proper ruff sand in between coats,most often get this type of argument when they spray and don't roll.if you want to win the fight,ruff sand the wall with some 80 or 100 grit,then prime it again on one wall.I did this before,they stopped me before I applied the paint.they could see difference after the sand.but this was on sprayed walls though .
the ruff sand in between coats is important,think you know what I'm saying


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Ruff Sand???? 80 or 100g, you have to be joking me??? So you want to see the scratches and flashing that your 100 grit will leave behind in the paint do you, any wonder they stopped you before you primed it as it would need re plastered first??? WTF man, Its a sealer undercoat not bloody car bog, its soft paint, 100g is for outside of houses to remove old exterior paint, ITS A VERY LIGHT SMOOTH sand just to remove the nibs and dust etc but not scratch up or remove sealer back to drywall with 240g on the radius 360, if you use sand paper thats to course it will open up the coats of paint and show scratches, and bad flashing edges are worst for this as it soaks back unevenly, you apply a coat of sealer, SMOOTH sand it taking care not to break through the coat or sand it to thin, then a top coat, SMOOTH sand this then your final top coat, best build up, best coverage, best finish you can do :thumbsup:

I spray sealer/undercoat and dont spare any, I bomb it, to cover all the walls with some depth, not a thin pissy coat or a rolled out coat, then smooth sand so its all even still has has great coverage, then roll a top coat over that so this coat is not flashing or soaking or trying to seal anything, then a smooth sand, then a final top coat rolled on. This comes up brillent, even full and smooth walls with no flashing, or sanding scratches.

My guess is your beads have had a pissy thin undercoat, then oversanded so its exposed the plaster again, if its ruff sanded at this point then its stuffed, then the top coats have soaked in at this point and is giving you the flashing problem, The problem with spraying is people tend to rush it showing off how fast they are and screw it up.


----------



## taper71 (Dec 9, 2007)

Ya the houses have only been primed ( tinted to the color the paint will be). The first house I did was perfect. After I told a really good taper / painter friend of mine what was happening, he phoned up the Drywall Contractor and educated him on flashing and paint procedures . He is the guy that said If I tape for this guy he would treat me good. I like the homes and they pay very well so I would hate to lose them as a source of income because of ignorance on everyone s part. We shall see if the attitudes have changed after the long weekend when I go back. I have taken another job from another Contractor in the mean time just incase these guys end up with hurt ego's and want to take it out on me.


----------



## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

cazna said:


> Ruff Sand???? 80 or 100g, you have to be joking me??? So you want to see the scratches and flashing that your 100 grit will leave behind in the paint do you, any wonder they stopped you before you primed it as it would need re plastered first??? WTF man, Its a sealer undercoat not bloody car bog, its soft paint, 100g is for outside of houses to remove old exterior paint, ITS A VERY LIGHT SMOOTH sand just to remove the nibs and dust etc but not scratch up or remove sealer back to drywall with 240g on the radius 360, if you use sand paper thats to course it will open up the coats of paint and show scratches, and bad flashing edges are worst for this as it soaks back unevenly, you apply a coat of sealer, SMOOTH sand it taking care not to break through the coat or sand it to thin, then a top coat, SMOOTH sand this then your final top coat, best build up, best coverage, best finish you can do :thumbsup:
> 
> I spray sealer/undercoat and dont spare any, I bomb it, to cover all the walls with some depth, not a thin pissy coat or a rolled out coat, then smooth sand so its all even still has has great coverage, then roll a top coat over that so this coat is not flashing or soaking or trying to seal anything, then a smooth sand, then a final top coat rolled on. This comes up brillent, even full and smooth walls with no flashing, or sanding scratches.
> 
> My guess is your beads have had a pissy thin undercoat, then oversanded so its exposed the plaster again, if its ruff sanded at this point then its stuffed, then the top coats have soaked in at this point and is giving you the flashing problem, The problem with spraying is people tend to rush it showing off how fast they are and screw it up.



I remember at one point you thought level 5 was done with mud now your on track grasshopper.......


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

cazna said:


> Ruff Sand???? 80 or 100g, you have to be joking me??? So you want to see the scratches and flashing that your 100 grit will leave behind in the paint do you, any wonder they stopped you before you primed it as it would need re plastered first??? WTF man, Its a sealer undercoat not bloody car bog, its soft paint, 100g is for outside of houses to remove old exterior paint, ITS A VERY LIGHT SMOOTH sand just to remove the nibs and dust etc but not scratch up or remove sealer back to drywall with 240g on the radius 360, if you use sand paper thats to course it will open up the coats of paint and show scratches, and bad flashing edges are worst for this as it soaks back unevenly, you apply a coat of sealer, SMOOTH sand it taking care not to break through the coat or sand it to thin, then a top coat, SMOOTH sand this then your final top coat, best build up, best coverage, best finish you can do :thumbsup:
> 
> I spray sealer/undercoat and dont spare any, I bomb it, to cover all the walls with some depth, not a thin pissy coat or a rolled out coat, then smooth sand so its all even still has has great coverage, then roll a top coat over that so this coat is not flashing or soaking or trying to seal anything, then a smooth sand, then a final top coat rolled on. This comes up brillent, even full and smooth walls with no flashing, or sanding scratches.
> 
> My guess is your beads have had a pissy thin undercoat, then oversanded so its exposed the plaster again, if its ruff sanded at this point then its stuffed, then the top coats have soaked in at this point and is giving you the flashing problem, The problem with spraying is people tend to rush it showing off how fast they are and screw it up.


It was 80 or 100 grit we used,could not of cared which one it was,it was a argument,one in which i won with the head supervisor of a large job.after we went down 20 feet of wall he seen the difference automatically,so there fore he did not need to see the paint applied after wards.What the painter did or what you do while they paint, I could not care less,they or you could ruff sand your work with the hair from your a$$ for all i care.If i wanted to read about it i would go to painter talk .and if you read taper 71 last post the walls were only primed,and I'm fairly sure he knew what my post meant.number one being he was not at fault.
maybe you should just stick to painting then if your such a pro,leave the taping to us pro's:thumbsup:


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Mudstar said:


> I remember at one point you thought level 5 was done with mud now your on track grasshopper.......


 
It does work well mudstar :thumbsup: But im not painting all of my work, that other job i skimmed level 5 was becouse the painters were rolling a thin pissy coat of cheap sealer followed by semi gloss paint with bad lighting so it had me a bit concerned, I didnt beat the delayed shrinkage anyway so thats a piss off.

Drywall and decorating are intertwined 2buck, To be a good taper it would help to understand painting and to be a good painter it would help to understand what the taper is upto IMO, Just as to be a good hanger it helps to know what the framing is upto, Maybe it should all be one trade???, its not hard just common sence, Thats why simple mistakes happen that lead to bad walls, its all just coat after coat be it mud or paint, just pointing something simple out, your choice if you take it on board or get ****ty about it, but as you said you couldnt care less.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

who cares about a trade you can learn in one day.it's the colour blue for a boys room,pink for a girls,there's all you need to know.
ill stick to the DRYWALL TALK,the trades that take years to master
or become a GOD:yes:


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

taper71 said:


> Ya the houses have only been primed ( tinted to the color the paint will be). The first house I did was perfect. After I told a really good taper / painter friend of mine what was happening, he phoned up the Drywall Contractor and educated him on flashing and paint procedures . He is the guy that said If I tape for this guy he would treat me good. I like the homes and they pay very well so I would hate to lose them as a source of income because of ignorance on everyone s part. We shall see if the attitudes have changed after the long weekend when I go back. I have taken another job from another Contractor in the mean time just incase these guys end up with hurt ego's and want to take it out on me.


I know the feeling taper71, your working on a job and the builder is making an arse of it, so what do you do??? speak up and tell him then he sulks and does not call you again or do you keep your mouth shut and pretend its all good and just try and fix the cock up??? I tend to speak up for the clients sake hoping that they get me repeat work through word of mouth, seems to work but you can lose some contacts, ok if you have somewhere else to go, but you do need to be carefull.


----------



## taper71 (Dec 9, 2007)

Thats just it... some tradesmen just suck it up and don t say anything for fear of losing their job, or worse, try not to figure out what the real solution to the problem is and it just gets carried over to the next guy. Like I said I tried to fix this because I really did think it was my mistake at first, but now I know what caused the flashing and will be alot more prepared to deal with an ignorant GC or home owner if I ever run across it again. 
You know I sub to Drywall Contractors so I don t have to deal with this kind of thing and I am finding now that most of them just have money and are not Drywallers and sit back and collect the profit while we the drywallers do all the field management for free. Time to start being the Drywall Contractor for myself again I think.


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Thats it taper71, screw them.
I had a builder here i did work for, for about 8 years, he was a sole builder then he employed someone then he started doing plans and full specs, so then he wanted itemised quotes and got accounts all around town for all the different trades to put the materials on, So his game plan was to get quotes from all trades involved, play us off against each other, put mark ups on all the labour and materials and charge the client for everyone collect the money take his mark up and pay everyone so he could drive around in his porshe and bark orders to everyone, his ego went through the roof and he starting looking down on us all, Well i dont get out of bed to work all day so some one else earns off me, No way, so i dont work for him anymore.

But it amazes me that its working out for him???? I had know idea there are so many gullable people around who fall for this nonsence.


----------



## taper71 (Dec 9, 2007)

Ya so I get a call from the DC telling me that we will have to go and coat the shadows (paint flashing ) because we are the new kids and if we want to stay in buisness thats what we got to do. I will get paid for my time so just bill him for the service work. I asked the DC if he showed him what the real problem was, and the answer is the super didn t even want to hear it. The response is that there is no such thing as a bad paint job and that the 2 other DC's that work for this builder do what they are told and he has to too. It really makes me sick to my stomach by the ignorance of the builing sup ( and the higher ups that support him ) and the cowardice of the DC's who grovel for the buisness, and contribute to bad workmanship. It makes me even more sick that the other tapers go back and coat shadows for free, for fear of an ignorant DC or building sup firing them. It sure goes to show how alot of trades are getting taught the wrong way to do the job.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

Well, I only buy 100 grit paper,,, however, I do use 120 grit on my PC. 
When it comes to sponges, I use the coarse-med.

I don't waste my time on sand paper that doesn't cut anything.


Disclaimer: I paint my own work, so don't give me any Sh&t about the painter.


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

I find that completley amazing 

You must have sealer thats a lot harder than ours then, I used 120g on the sealer years ago and ruined the paint job, stuffed it, showed scatches, I felt like a total fool, so switched to the finer grades.

I dont need to cut it with the sand paper?? whats the point in that??? just remove the nibs and high spots to make it smooth so the top coats arnt soaking in and flashing.

If it works for you capt then so be it, but im amazed???


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

part of the sanding process is to blend the wall surface texture,there's suppose to be some muscle put into it,so it cuts down on flashing etc....from what i see most painters use 100 grit,thats what they ask to borrow from us so,but we don't use or keep 100 grit.a hell of a lot of the new painters do not even ruff sand no more ,or do a bad job of it.it's a 2 way street,a good painter compliments a good taper and vice versa


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

I just cant believe it??? No way would any one here use 100g, how does putting some muscle behind 100g help anything, all thats going to do is rip the crap out of the paint, yuk yuk and yuk, I would love to see it and what standards you guys are working too(Dare i metion that) its 220g on the raduis 360 for a nice smooth wall, I mean everyone here does that, its standard practice, anything else then expect a boot fair up the jacksey (arse) and an ear full of abuse. It not just me, its everyone here.


My Apologies to you then 2buck for having a go at you for it, if this is what happens around you and with your painters then so be it??? OMG.

But im expecting Ashton kutcher to come bursting out from no where laughing and giggling like an idiot saying bah ha ha you have been punked any time soon?? Come on Ashton, You must be around here somewhere?? :jester:


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

ah ha you have been punked eh ,we do things like you guys 
you talking 220 for sanding paint or taping,wouldn't paint just gum up the 220,and if you are using it for drywall sanding would take for ever to sand,you can use rougher grits,criss cross your work,leaves no sanding lines at all,for taping.
find guys (most) use 100 or 80 grit for ruff sand,120,150,180,for finish sand,all paper dulls after awhile so.....you sand certain things 1st,others last,flats last for example.and by criss cross ,go left right on 1st pass on a butt joint ,then go up and down,no lines then


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> ah ha you have been punked eh ,we do things like you guys
> you talking 220 for sanding paint or taping,wouldn't paint just gum up the 220,and if you are using it for drywall sanding would take for ever to sand,you can use rougher grits,criss cross your work,leaves no sanding lines at all,for taping.
> find guys (most) use 100 or 80 grit for ruff sand,120,150,180,for finish sand,all paper dulls after awhile so.....you sand certain things 1st,others last,flats last for example.and by criss cross ,go left right on 1st pass on a butt joint ,then go up and down,no lines then


400 posts 2buck, you win the cookie, Im talking 220g for sanding the mud and 220g for sanding the sealer/undercoat and 220g for the 2nd coat of paint but most of the time the 2nd coat of paint dont need it as its pretty sweet by then, and no it does not gum up anymore, it use to with the 2nd coat as it was different paint back then, 7 years ago? but now its more advanced and no way should the sealer/undercoat clog up, A few brands call it easysand sealer/undercoat so its easier to sand for a smooth finish, there is acyrlic primer undercoat which is a litttle harder for exterior and acrylic sealer undercoat which is softer and easier sanding for interior, im picking your stuff is more like the exterior acrylic primer undercoat which is a little tougher, but i still wouldnt dare to hit it with 100g, I think you call it latex??? waterbased paint?? not to sure on that.

I tend to sand up and down the flats and butts as a cris cross action would chew it out a bit??? and its easier than going accross it in short sharp movements like that???

Our USG is made in maylasia, Is yours??? or do you have it made in usa, its fairly soft to sand so 220g on my flex sander is plenty, i dont want to remove it to fast and it doesnt take long to sand at all, I use to use some NZ made stuff and that needed 150g to get anywhere.
I dont need to start course and work my way down to finer paper, thats more time and more cost so theres no point.

Dam interesting comparing things between countrys i must say??

Still waiting on Ashton :jester: He must be due to show up soon???


----------



## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

I sand inbetween paint coats with 100 grit on an idiot stick (pole sander)


----------

