# Finishing in Canada vs US



## ns005 (Dec 23, 2010)

I have been doing some research lately and it seems like finishers (the whole drywall trade in general) seem to be better paid than here in the US. Here there is really no union to control wages, most employers do not offer benefits and it just isn't a very highly paid trade. I have a friend that is a Union pipefitter. He makes $36 an hr, company truck, ins. paid, ect. i am currently working for a guy making $20 with no benefits, and he is not deducting taxes so I will be getting a 1099 which im pretty sure is illegal. 2buck I'm sure you have some input on this. I love doing drywall it just pisses me off that it doesn't pay nearly what it should and how cut throat of a market it is. I tried going at on my own for a while but there really isn't enough money in it to do it by the books and someone is always willing to do it cheaper. Is it like this in Canada? What is a taper paid? Im considering considering moving there if it is much better than here. Thanks in advance


----------



## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

The sub trade can be very cutthroat. Union tapers in Ontario I believe make just over $30/hr. I'm a residential taper doing some commercial work right now and easily get $28/hr with no deductions or benefits though. Gotta pay for those myself if I choose.
Residential rates are usually piecework and if you're making .28¢/sq or higher you're doing ok. Houses around my area usually start around .35¢/sq because of lack of available tapers and houses aren't simple anymore. A lot of us here but many are union guys and end up in remote areas for periods of time. Depends on which part of the country you are in as well. Doesn't smell like roses everywhere.
Some production house prices start as low as .17¢ until you can prove yourself to the GC then you are more than likely to get a raise.


----------



## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

I agree the drywall trade gets no appreciation for the amount of work it is to do. I can't understand why drywallers need to hustle to make their money, while electricians, AC Guys, pipe fitters barely break a sweat and get paid well. Drywall gets paid crumbs. I guess all the automated tools like the Bazooka and the Boxes that were made for drywallers to advance a job in ease and faster, made drywall prices go down in general. Not to mention the illegal hispanics and Europeans doing work dirt cheap. I look at a job we do, hang 150 sheet in a day, and say wow, I'm making good money as a drywall contractor, but the workers get paid poor in order for the contractor to survive. If we don't survive, we can't keep our hangers/finishers busy.


----------



## ns005 (Dec 23, 2010)

I hear ya, I don't blame the guy Im working for. Its what he has to do to keep going. I just dont like how there are no standards. What makes a journeyman a journeyman? Is there even such a thing as a journeyman taper anymore. Pretty sad, not much different than roofing, insulating, flooring, and siding i suppose though. Those trades don't make squat either. My friend could get me into the pipefitter apprenticeship but I hate to give up on drywall.​


----------



## Axecutioner-B (May 3, 2010)

joepro0000 said:


> I agree the drywall trade gets no appreciation for the amount of work it is to do. I can't understand why drywallers need to hustle to make their money, *while electricians, AC Guys, pipe fitters barely break a sweat and get paid well*. Drywall gets paid crumbs. I guess all the automated tools like the Bazooka and the Boxes that were made for drywallers to advance a job in ease and faster, made drywall prices go down in general. Not to mention the illegal hispanics and Europeans doing work dirt cheap. I look at a job we do, hang 150 sheet in a day, and say wow, I'm making good money as a drywall contractor, but the workers get paid poor in order for the contractor to survive. If we don't survive, we can't keep our hangers/finishers busy.


Times are tough right now for the other trades too. A non- union JW (journey wireman) electrician around Phoenix right now is getting ball park $15 an hour & (sad to say) they better be grateful to have the work or there will be another guy there to take their place who is grateful. Times are tough & we are all in this together.
________
AnnaHot19 cam


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

ns005 said:


> I hear ya, I don't blame the guy Im working for. Its what he has to do to keep going. I just dont like how there are no standards. What makes a journeyman a journeyman? Is there even such a thing as a journeyman taper anymore. Pretty sad, not much different than roofing, insulating, flooring, and siding i suppose though. Those trades don't make squat either. My friend could get me into the pipefitter apprenticeship but I hate to give up on drywall.​


Gotta remember that the taxes and cost of living are waaaaay higher up there. Just as you in Iowa and myself in Missouri get paid dirt compared with a NYC union guy, their scales are gonna be way different. 

And the cost of that blasted Socialized Hellthcare is enormous. Ask Canuck how much a pack of smokes is up north. Back in the 80's they were double what we were paying. Remember that crash we experienced here? Their crash is coming, sooner or later.

If you can get on as a pipefitter, I'd sure consider it, especially if you're expecting the residential work to come back before.... oh, 2020 maybe.

Google up the 1099 test. Your boss is probably just barely passing. He also probably cannot afford to put you on regular payroll and still keep his lights on. I have made every one of my men into entrepreneurs myself. It's that or go work at Lowe's. 

Right now, those of us that are working at all are pretty fortunate all things considered.


----------



## ns005 (Dec 23, 2010)

Axecutioner-B said:


> Times are tough right now for the other trades too. A non- union JW (journey wireman) electrician around Phoenix right now is getting ball park $15 an hour & (sad to say) they better be grateful to have the work or there will be another guy there to take their place who is grateful. Times are tough & we are all in this together.


 I think the key there is "non union. Not sure about AZ, but the electrical and fitter unions are pretty strong around here.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

RE Union: If you're okay with paying a portion of your wage to be allowed to hold a job (extortion), then cool for you.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Hide and watch what happens with unions, fellas. I still have principles.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

I use to be very anti Union ,I still am in some ways ,and in some ways I am not .What I have learned is that a man that works with his hands can be exploited very fast .Trades like miners,lumber jacks,factory workers,construction workers, fishermen, any form of TRADESMEN need to stand together .That's where unions basically started .What I don't agree with is Government workers needing a union ,In Canada that includes doctors, nurses, garbage men,police, firemen,teachers, transit workers, postmen,etc.....Yes they have a right to negotiate wages,but are they not working for a employer who is to protect it's citizens .They make more than the average working private citizen now,the ones who pay their wages. But thats a whole other argument.

In Ontario only (don't know about rest of Canada) it has all become Union,I will address the London market ,The tapers went union,the rockers did not, but the rockers feel no need to now ,they just keep pace with our wages .you still work at a piece work price.Rarely is any work done by the hour,it's around the $30 dollar range if you do, each city is different, Toronto is higher for example.In the london area the companies look at the rates as being set in stone. While Toronto they look at the union rate as the bottom price to work for.Things like cathedrals,coffered ceilings,Openings over 8x8x10 are around $100 and something in extras, you get so much a running foot for bead,so much for height increases and a set P/W sq ft rate.3 cents of the house goes to the union, the DWC looks after that.We pay $20 a month in dues .

The companies almost like the union better than us workers now,The price does not yo-yo up and down now .It's about keeping the best worker working for you now.For example,the house I started in today the builder did not like our competitors tapers, so he heard through the grape vine my particular company had the better tapers. now we got his work. Even the builders say their liking it better too. One told me drywall pricing was the most radical one out there for pricing .Hell even the supply stores like it better, their dealing with a few big companies instead of a whole bunch of small independents.

Pros are no more cut throat pricing,the price stays the same .No fly by nights can invade the market.You must be a ticketed worker ,which is kind of like a electrician having a license to do business. If your good you will have work,the companies will compete for you.If you suck ,sorry about your luck .It's still p/w,your still in control of your day, your still your own boss. The union plants you in the ground if you die,Think they give 10,000.I will get a pension one day.(around $3600 a month)there's a drug and small dental plan.Too be honest our union is kind of weak in a way,We have been in it now for 4 years or so,just a lot of guys don't use their benefits, We all just like the idea the price don't yo-yo no more.And best of all,the union stepped on the heads of the painters. They set standards on them.the painters and tapers are in the same union,Think were 1898 or something like that. Guess were called the international union of painters and allied trades.But the union reps tell me they can't stand the painters. Their too fly buy night and cut throat.It's kind of silly in our area, if a painter starts crying, They threaten to sign them in the union.it shuts them up.....and the damn unions named after them,,nutz

the cons are
Your not allowed to price jobs on the side, but they sorta turn a blind eye to the odd basement, just don't price a house.You half to maintain $60,000 a year for benefits to kick in. It's do able but it puts you in a very bad tax bracket.Stupid safety meetings, but I think that's more the government.There's the odd meeting to go to,but the reps never tell me when they are,they don't like me there.I keep screaming for more money.I feel were still under paid but I don't fault the DWC or the union for that.I fault the Government for that, we cant keep up with the taxes and cost of living fast enough.30 years ago I use to make more than a cop or teacher, but that was a different era,,,,it's called the good old days.

In todays political climate and economy, I feel you half to unite to have a voice. Look at all the lobbyist groups, marketing boards,associations, and big business and banks that set pricing etc...who looks after the little guy.I compare it to sports.If I were to use hockey for example.The players were owned,period.They had no say.They could be traded for a bag of pucks. Suffer a career ending injury and it was too bad for you.It was capitalism/big business at it's worst.But they formed a union,and fought back.Now their well paid,there's a structure to the league now.Yes there's pro's and cons,just as long as either side does not get too greedy, then they can work.

Just screw those left and right arguments down there in the states, It's about looking after yourself, and helping others when you can.We formed a dry wall association before the union came in ,in the london area.It worked for a while,but it had no teeth.The union has teeth,we could not stop the fly by nights so.But we did garner respect from the DWC and builders when we did it.

and to sum up,I am a conservative type guy,I believe if you work hard you should be able to get a head.I believe in a helping hand up to a fellow man,not a hand out.Teach a man to fish,just don't feed a fish to him.I don't like government unions,it's like why.I'm not too keen on the hour working union taper, But I also understand why they exist.It's those government jobs that even my DWC can't bid on,but that's politics again.I think the unions are fine as long as you keep a p/w status.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

I was trying to keep my anti-union rant short, but I will expand a bit:

First, know that I wasa very nearly a third generation union coal miner. I dodged that bullet, just barely.

I have absolutely no problems with the rank and file membership. It's the vile vermin up top, from the BAs up I'd like to gut like a fish. I will say that some of the membership has drunk the KoolAid and do further the problem. But by and large, the workers aren't the problem.

In your 'pros', that .03 per foot that goes to union: Doesn't that make you guys feel like whores and your union the madam? Or maybe like a guido paying the capo?

That the union buries you and pensions you: Until the crash, my men had a $15k death bennie and a 401k with matching funds. I paid about a buck or two over scale and the bosses had Silverados to drive (during the day). They also had up to two weeks vacation and five sick days and five paid holidays. You don't get a single paid day off in the union unless you bank it.

Post bust: Nary a single hourly/salaried man on my staff. Subs one and all. While I haven't raised the footage rate even a half a cent, I haven't beat the down in the dirt like my competition (who, BTW, is paying what we got back in, oh, 1992). My subs will drop and roll for one of my jobs because I do pay over what the cutthroats pay, and they know I'm good for it. No one can go round saying I've ever beat them out of a plug nickel, lest they ****ed something up. Even then, I was over fair with the parting gifts.

Where I will diverge on the preceeding is this whole twat twisting in Wisconsin currently. That the administration has taken to bussing in the brainwashed just says it all right there. muBarack's Organizing America is playing with fire. The money is GONE and Walker is trying to preserve jobs and the solvency of that State. And the ungrateful phucks only wanna make Nazi comparisons and crap in the Rotunda. That whole bunch can piss off.

And yep, the left/right battle is oh so much posturing and pandering and BS in general. I may be a conservative and a former R, but my eyes are open now. I know who is at the root of it and it ain't that skinny a-hole at 1600 Penn. I reckon this is not the place to go into all that.


----------



## Axecutioner-B (May 3, 2010)

ns005 said:


> I think the key there is "non union. Not sure about AZ, but the electrical and fitter unions are pretty strong around here.


There are so many non-union shops here that unions aren't nearly as strong as they used to be. I think a union JW is getting about $22 an hour.
________
Acrylic Bongs


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

joepro0000 said:


> I agree the drywall trade gets no appreciation for the amount of work it is to do. I can't understand why drywallers need to hustle to make their money, while electricians, AC Guys, pipe fitters barely break a sweat and get paid well. Drywall gets paid crumbs. I guess all the automated tools like the Bazooka and the Boxes that were made for drywallers to advance a job in ease and faster, made drywall prices go down in general. Not to mention the illegal hispanics and Europeans doing work dirt cheap. I look at a job we do, hang 150 sheet in a day, and say wow, I'm making good money as a drywall contractor, but the workers get paid poor in order for the contractor to survive. If we don't survive, we can't keep our hangers/finishers busy.


feel for me, a hand finisher. killing myself to get the houses finished out 
so to pay the hangers for the next one. i'm a one man show. no finish helper, just me. i stay hanger poor. :yes:


----------



## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

Union here pays $65hr.full benefits & 401k.You must have 900hrs(i believe) before you can collect benefits.
Most union guys I know are laid off in the winter,& helping us out.Right now the union work is picking up as compared to last year @ this time.Things slowed here in NY a bit,But if your good, you stayed working through this whole(so-called) recession.


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Final touch drywall said:


> Union here pays $65hr.full benefits & 401k.You must have 900hrs(i believe) before you can collect benefits.
> Most union guys I know are laid off in the winter,& helping us out.


 Is that just in the city, or statewide? I've always liked upstate


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

moore said:


> feel for me, a hand finisher. killing myself to get the houses finished out
> so to pay the hangers for the next one. i'm a one man show. no finish helper, just me. i stay hanger poor. :yes:


Maybe a small business loan could get you some shiny new automated tools, and they would pay for themselves in the first 2 houses (while still paying you a _little_ bit). If I were doing whole houses instead of all this remodel work I'd bite the bullet and get the auto tools. That's a given.:thumbsup:


----------



## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> Is that just in the city, or statewide? I've always liked upstate


That's mahattens local,they pay $5 dollars more than the long island local.Not sure what goes on upstate.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> In your 'pros', that .03 per foot that goes to union: Doesn't that make you guys feel like whores and your union the madam? Or maybe like a guido paying the capo?


It's a lot less money than the government takes from me :thumbup:
And unlike the states,Our unions are not a loud to make political donations,thank god


----------



## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

SlimPickins said:


> Maybe a small business loan could get you some shiny new automated tools, and they would pay for themselves in the first 2 houses (while still paying you a _little_ bit). If I were doing whole houses instead of all this remodel work I'd bite the bullet and get the auto tools. That's a given.:thumbsup:


 
Could not agree more. By your self is got to be hard. I give you much respect and props for doing your thing.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> Maybe a small business loan could get you some shiny new automated tools, and they would pay for themselves in the first 2 houses (while still paying you a _little_ bit). If I were doing whole houses instead of all this remodel work I'd bite the bullet and get the auto tools. That's a given.:thumbsup:


 I think about that all hours of the day. hire finishers/automated tools/need more scaffold / take larger jobs/ more houses. but the way things are now , i'm lucky to be booked 3 months ahead. hell if I've got work three weeks straight I'm happy. automated tools are first . the loan ?????


----------



## PrairrieDogExpress (Jan 29, 2010)

[email protected];24195
And the cost of that blasted Socialized Hellthcare is enormous. Ask Canuck how much a pack of smokes is up north. Back in the 80's they were double what we were paying. Remember that crash we experienced here? Their crash is coming said:


> Please...:whistling2: There are alot of reasons why we have been better off than most countries through the downturn. Not really sure why you think we will crash like you did. We are similar in alot of ways but different as well.
> 
> Oh and smokes are $11 for a pack of 25.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

PrairrieDogExpress said:


> Please...:whistling2: There are alot of reasons why we have been better off than most countries through the downturn. Not really sure why you think we will crash like you did. We are similar in alot of ways but different as well.
> 
> Oh and smokes are $11 for a pack of 25.


there's a few reasons why were doing better,One we had stronger regulations on our banks,tighter mortgage controls (like 30% down) We were running a surplus up to a few years ago. but some Obama guy told the G20 to SPEND our way out of this recession.We have a low business tax, think it's going down to 16% soon. and we have a strong commodity market,like oil.It's like there is no recession here at all, almost.

I can get a pack of 25 smokes from the rez for $4.00. their better than the tailor made ones that do cost around $10.00 .

and for health care,we have had a minority government right now for 5 years,which is what Americans call a lame duck president .Once the conservatives (republican like) take power,and odds are they will. you will see a two tier system slowly implemented in. (meaning private insurance) You could say we have had democrats running our country for the past 25 years
just adding to your post PDE:yes:


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Why do I think Canada is headed for a downturn? Because booms never last forever and Socialism doesn't work, ever.


----------



## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Why do I think Canada is headed for a downturn? Because booms never last forever and Socialism doesn't work, ever.


I heard this 35 years ago. Still waiting ! Wishing or waiting for ill will on others won't help you.

I'm going to work now ! If I get hurt today I will go get fixed up at our local hospital without emptying out my bank account. Taxes aren't so bad in certain situations.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Why do I think Canada is headed for a downturn? Because booms never last forever and Socialism doesn't work, ever.


you watch too much fox news
google Pierre Trudeau,read his life and policies, then compare it to Obama.
then google socialism,then tell me what obama did for the banks and car manufacturers is called.
but our health care is so evil,bet you can't wait till your 65, so you get your health care for free too eh',,,,while you guys are steam rolling a head with socialism,well were kicking back ,so your sorta calling the kettle black.
I was once talking to a painter from Poland, To him,Canada and America were way more socialist than his former east block country.
research before you assume things :yes:


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm going to move to Canada. Work & Beavers aplenty...what more could a guy ask for?:thumbup:


----------



## McDusty (Oct 12, 2009)

maybe we (Canadians) should treat you (Americans), treat the Mexicans. Americans are the new wet-backs. No offense to wet-backs. 

Obama just introduced something that will see all Canadians entering the US by air or boat, to pay a fee. an estimated 160million/year in revenue expected. This is to help with your 1+ trillion dollar debt. You should stay in the US and clean up your mess, i can smell it over here and it stinks like KFC Buffet & gas station bathroom. 

but really, i don't care. you are welcome to come up here and take a crack at it. Canada will take anyone in, even their stinky neighbor. Just make sure you are ready to pay 2x the tax and 2x the material costs on everything. Oh and bring warm clothes.


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

McDusty said:


> maybe we (Canadians) should treat you (Americans), treat the Mexicans. Americans are the new wet-backs. No offense to wet-backs.
> 
> Obama just introduced something that will see all Canadians entering the US by air or boat, to pay a fee. an estimated 160million/year in revenue expected. This is to help with your 1+ trillion dollar debt. You should stay in the US and clean up your mess, i can smell it over here and it stinks like KFC Buffet & gas station bathroom.
> 
> but really, i don't care. you are welcome to come up here and take a crack at it. Canada will take anyone in, even their stinky neighbor. Just make sure you are ready to pay 2x the tax and 2x the material costs on everything. Oh and bring warm clothes.


Now I've changed my mind. Thank you for setting me straight. I'm just a typical American with my house filled chock full of Walmart purchases and Bermuda shorts (due the tropical temperatures here in Montana).


----------



## McDusty (Oct 12, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> Now I've changed my mind. Thank you for setting me straight. I'm just a typical American with my house filled chock full of Walmart purchases and Bermuda shorts (due the tropical temperatures here in Montana).


I was kidding around, I love Montana, very similar to where I live in BC, lots of mountain ********. It wasn't a shot directed at you specifically. if you are coming, bring me a semi truck load of $9 sheets of drywall, we will flip them for $19


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

McDusty said:


> I was kidding around, I love Montana, very similar to where I live in BC, lots of mountain ********. It wasn't a shot directed at you specifically. if you are coming, bring me a semi truck load of $9 sheets of drywall, we will flip them for $19


Don't worry, I didn't take it personally. I can understand why people living in other countries have a pronounced lack of respect for Americans in general. As a nation, we DO act like a bunch of spoiled children. If I were to move to Canada, and I'm seriously considering it (look out Canadiites!), I'd probably move to BC, or maybe Alberta because it's closer. I'd like to be right near Alaska though.

Maybe my new business venture should be international drywall vending? Although, unlike a sack of weed, it's hard to hide a bunk of sheetrock


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> Don't worry, I didn't take it personally. I can understand why people living in other countries have a pronounced lack of respect for Americans in general. As a nation, we DO act like a bunch of spoiled children. If I were to move to Canada, and I'm seriously considering it (look out Canadiites!), I'd probably move to BC, or maybe Alberta because it's closer. I'd like to be right near Alaska though.
> 
> Maybe my new business venture should be international drywall vending? Although, unlike a sack of weed, it's hard to hide a bunk of sheetrock


You should move to Ontario slim, everyone knows that's the best province.








Plus you don't half to apologize for being American. Obama did that for you:yes:
what bad thing did you guys do now :jester:


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> You should move to Ontario slim, everyone knows that's the best province.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe I should sell myself on ebay, and see who pays the most....Ontario or BC? Shall we start the bidding at $.97 and some pocket lint?

As for the bad we thing we did now, we continued not to change:laughing:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> You should move to Ontario slim, everyone knows that's the best province.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


we don't ALL have Government jobs. that's what he's apologizing for.
[ the change]all he wants is communism.:furious:


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

moore said:


> we don't ALL have Government jobs. that's what he's apologizing for.
> [ the change]all he wants is communism.:furious:


Are you talking about me or Obama?:laughing:


----------



## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

think what 2Canuck is trying to say is Join a Union


----------



## betterdrywall (May 4, 2010)

I never start anyone regardless of how many years they Say they have, for more than 10 bucks an hour.. I am not about to waste my time and money on flunkies. If someone proves themselves and is worth having I will be glad to pay double the price. Meaning they have to run and do more work than I can...and it has to be CLEAN. But I don't know how many times in the past that I have had guys 20 years in the trade ,not able to pick their nose. and forget about picking the angles.. walk and chew gum at the same time??? I am too scared to look.. And too , Workers comp cost money,, I can't afford dipchits hurting themselves on my job.. I ain't no babysitter.... I had one guy said he was a finisher for 20 or so years.. Every dayum morning he would always have to ask,,,, What do we do today?? I always said what the F were we doing yesterday? I got so pissed after the first week, I fired his azz.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

betterdrywall said:


> I never start anyone regardless of how many years they Say they have, for more than 10 bucks an hour.. I am not about to waste my time and money on flunkies. If someone proves themselves and is worth having I will be glad to pay double the price. Meaning they have to run and do more work than I can...and it has to be CLEAN. But I don't know how many times in the past that I have had guys 20 years in the trade ,not able to pick their nose. and forget about picking the angles.. walk and chew gum at the same time??? I am too scared to look.. And too , Workers comp cost money,, I can't afford dipchits hurting themselves on my job.. I ain't no babysitter.... I had one guy said he was a finisher for 20 or so years.. Every dayum morning he would always have to ask,,,, What do we do today?? I always said what the F were we doing yesterday? I got so pissed after the first week, I fired his azz.


I've been in this trade from the age of 15 . I'm still learning. I know d/cs with twice the years of experience that still don't have a clue. A finisher with an open mind . That's what were looking for. Right or wrong ,, do it the way the man writing the checks says .


----------

