# Hawk & Trowel or Pan & knife



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

I know some guys are good or equal at both,so it's if you had to choice ,and your suffering from no body pain,and you had to coat /bed every thing by hand.Which is your weapon of choice


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

sorry 2buck , but this poll will take a while . these machine guys could care less about a hawg or a pan. hell ,i hoping to be one myself soon. [hawk/knives ]


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

moore said:


> sorry 2buck , but this poll will take a while . these machine guys could care less about a hawg or a pan. hell ,i hoping to be one myself soon. [hawk/knives ]


I am a machine taper,we still got to coat out our beads by hand with something,or skim our butts by hand,coating short joints etc....you cant do everything buy machine.
I know you you change up too,like I use a P&K for wiping tape,screws,45's etc...and some guys will use a K&H to do things....I think the boyz know what I mean....I hope:thumbsup:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> I am a machine taper,we still got to coat out our beads by hand with something,or skim our butts by hand,coating short joints etc....you cant do everything buy machine.
> I know you you change up too,like I use a P&K for wiping tape,screws,45's etc...and some guys will use a K&H to do things....I think the boyz know what I mean....I hope:thumbsup:


not a machine man yet . don't know these things. but i'm learning. thanks. works really picked up know. when i can afford . thinkin about a 10'' box for blockin in seams. when i do i'll post a pix of that g/d mess. should be great stuff.


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

speaking of machine tools it was a good day when these bad boys finally got to my door...but sometime if rooms are not big enough they will slow you down..machine tools take a good bit of getting used to but when you do there awsome and worth the cost..:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

I've seen jobs done with machines *painted*,(buy the best, "they thought so")& I've seen jobs done via hand tools *painted*.I'll just say this, I do not allow those machines anywhere near my jobs.

I have guys that use both methods,but most like the hawk & knives.I use both.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Final touch drywall said:


> I've seen jobs done with machines *painted*,(buy the best, "they thought so")& I've seen jobs done via hand tools *painted*.I'll just say this, I do not allow those machines anywhere near my jobs.
> 
> I have guys that use both methods,but most like the hawk & knives.I use both.


 You cannot blame the tools for poor quality. Everyday quality jobs are completed using taping tools.
Oh yeah pan & knifes for me I've never even tried a hawk so my opinion is kind of biased.


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

this was the first job i did after getting the rest of my mechine tools...boxes with extendable handles made the 9 foot lid a breeze:thumbsup:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Final touch drywall said:


> I've seen jobs done with machines *painted*,(buy the best, "they thought so")& I've seen jobs done via hand tools *painted*.I'll just say this, I do not allow those machines anywhere near my jobs.
> 
> I have guys that use both methods,but most like the hawk & knives.I use both.


if a good machine man is also agood hand finisher ,there shouldnt be a problem. right?


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

smisner50s said:


> this was the first job i did after getting the rest of my mechine tools...boxes with extendable handles made the 9 foot lid a breeze:thumbsup:


looks clean.


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

i learned how to finish rock by hand for 15 years i used pan .knife .bow trowel..so i can do it both ways dont blame the tools for poor quality .blame the person running them.blaming the tools is a week copout ignorant is the person who only sees on approch.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

moore said:


> if a good machine man is also agood hand finisher ,there shouldnt be a problem. right?


I would highly recommend a machine taper should of been a good hand taper.Imo they go forward and become the better machine taper.but there are a lot of variables to my statement,of coarse :yes:.
I think the hardest transition is the angle's,how little mud goes on with machines.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> I am a machine taper,we still got to coat out our beads by hand with something,or skim our butts by hand,coating short joints etc....you cant do everything buy machine.
> I know you you change up too,like I use a P&K for wiping tape,screws,45's etc...and some guys will use a K&H to do things....I think the boyz know what I mean....I hope:thumbsup:


i dont want to turn this into hand tools v/s machine , but old man told me u can run first coat on bead with 10'' box? but he hasnt used machines in 35 years. those were ames. don't mean glog the thread. i'm here to [email protected]


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

some guys run boxes on bead,I know justme does.I'm getting to be a old fart,to me it's not worth it.seems like the newer generation of tapers are doing it.to me it's too slow.but to each his own.
don't worry, the threads always go off topic here:yes:


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

smisner50s said:


> speaking of machine tools it was a good day when these bad boys finally got to my door...but sometime if rooms are not big enough they will slow you down..machine tools take a good bit of getting used to but when you do there awsome and worth the cost..:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


So you bought a whole kit,need a bigger pic,some of us are old blind tapers,,,eh',how much $$$ if you don't mind.we usually get raped in canuck land for tools:yes:


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

i fully agree it should be a requirement to know how to finish by hand correctly before switching over to mechines..just as inspectors should have to have feild experiance before getting there licence.not jot reading books and thats good enough


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

yeah that pic is small after it came up ...i thought o damn..back to the tools..lets see..drywall master king taper.tapetech 10inch and 12inch power assit flat boxes short blueline box handle. and long extend handle blueline.. drywall master pump..already had one now got two.drywall bonehead with wheels 2.5 i already had the 3.5 drywall master 2 inch nail spotter already had the3inch. nocoat one sided roller..tape tech mudrunner..two sets of bead boxes..4300 was the price allwall


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

smisner50s said:


> i fully agree it should be a requirement to know how to finish by hand correctly before switching over to mechines..just as inspectors should have to have feild experiance before getting there licence.not jot reading books and thats good enough


don't get me wrong. most inspectors we deal with are sharp. but some have not a clue. hell ,i could do there job , and i'm a cow. thank you for that smisner, your so right.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

$4.300 you know how many 10'' @ 12'' knives i can buy with that, but i know .you can't buy time.thats what it's all about.


----------



## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

Hand finisher [hawk/trowel] for 20 years,went to machine last 11---still do my bead by hand--faster and cleaner, last coat on butts by hand also


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

heres a few pix of my daughters room i did the framing.hang .finish.flooring .texture spray.pant spray..you cant see but there is glitter in yhe paint..and everything white has a light coarse spray knockdown finish..and she just pounds her toys on the walls..


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

fully agree mechines cant do it all my .my hand tools are never far away..heck after i run my box on a seam i will run a squeegee trowel in the outher direction to float out any air bubbles and any inperfections.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

looks sharp,I really like the look of the shelves, nice straight sharp lines too on everything,That's one good thing when us tapers/rockers do our own stuff,the skies the limit.
but you better take away her crayon's for awhile:whistling2::jester:


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

too late first night she got the walls..gotta love em


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

smisner50s said:


> fully agree mechines cant do it all my .my hand tools are never far away..heck after i run my box on a seam i will run a squeegee trowel in the outher direction to float out any air bubbles and any inperfections.


here's some food for thought http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/flat-box-size-choices-1631/
the madness starts at post # 8,different way from the squeegee trowel


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

yeah there is some good information in that thread. i gonna need to read a few more times to let it sink in and fully grasp the idea.thanks


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> some guys run boxes on bead,I know justme does.I'm getting to be a old fart,to me it's not worth it.seems like the newer generation of tapers are doing it.to me it's too slow.but to each his own.
> don't worry, the threads always go off topic here:yes:


Judging by your Satan house pics and the amount of help you had and time frame you did it in, you still do more than all right for an old guy.

I still hand coat a fair amount of my bead, as it can still be quicker for me right now when all the things that eat up time are considered.

I boxed it, including paper/metal, originally in part because others said it couldn't be done. While doing such, I sometimes pick up on what I think could be lines of thought to follow as far as improving on things. When I'm trying something different like that, 'what is' isn't usually as important to me as 'what can be' and 'what could be' (and having a machinist for a brother-in-law can help when wanting to pursue such lines.)


----------



## M T Buckets Painting (Nov 27, 2010)

In my area the pan and knife are the preferred tools by the vast majority. Very rarely do you see anyone in my area using hawk and trowel. About the only time you see anyone using the h/t is during plaster application. Believe it or not most people would get laughed at for using h/t around here. I'm sure that in different areas of the world it is the exact opposite.


----------



## Mario (Feb 5, 2011)

The interesting thing about this forum, and this trade in general, is the vast differences in technique! Here in norcal, we ALWAYS run tools AND do a large amount of hand work (pan&knife).

For example: During skim coats, we'll run the 10" box on all seams and butts (splitting butts). Spot all screws (and at times metals and angles to slick them up) with the 3" "nail spotter" and run the 3" angle head (box) on all angles. 

After that, we double back around and "cross" everything. Meaning, hitting all laps and start points that occurred while running the 10" box. Hitting EVERY butt by hand again and picking the corners and bottoms of angles. We also skim all metal (corners) by hand. 

I would love to try the h&t someday!


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mario said:


> The interesting thing about this forum, and this trade in general, is the vast differences in technique! Here in norcal, we ALWAYS run tools AND do a large amount of hand work (pan&knife).
> 
> For example: During skim coats, we'll run the 10" box on all seams and butts (splitting butts). Spot all screws (and at times metals and angles to slick them up) with the 3" "nail spotter" and run the 3" angle head (box) on all angles.
> 
> ...


you sound like a typical machine taper to me :thumbsup:
some hand tapers (a few) and other trades hear the term "machine taper" and they think every aspect is done by machine.there's still a lot of hand work being done too:yes:


----------



## Mario (Feb 5, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> you sound like a typical machine taper to me :thumbsup:
> some hand tapers (a few) and other trades hear the term "machine taper" and they think every aspect is done by machine.there's still a lot of hand work being done too:yes:


Exactly! The machine is a cheat for time, but the art is in the handwork!

Not that running boxes is physically easy... that's the brutal part!


----------



## betterdrywall (May 4, 2010)

smisner50s said:


> this was the first job i did after getting the rest of my mechine tools...boxes with extendable handles made the 9 foot lid a breeze:thumbsup:


Nice ,, very clean job,, Keep up the good work,


----------



## sean B (Sep 9, 2010)

smisner50s said:


> i learned how to finish rock by hand for 15 years i used pan .knife .bow trowel..so i can do it both ways dont blame the tools for poor quality .blame the person running them.blaming the tools is a week copout ignorant is the person who only sees on approch.


 Thats correct, if someone cant tell if thier tools are doing a good job just by placing a knife on the joint to see if its full,hollow, rocking,or coved then they are just stupid, and you cant fix stupid.

you just keep using those tools and leave the hand finishing to the self proclaimed good finishers. youll be laughing all the way to the bank.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

your right sean , gotta check those joints. you can fix stupid , it just takes forever to get it right.


----------



## sean B (Sep 9, 2010)

moore said:


> your right sean , gotta check those joints. you can fix stupid , it just takes forever to get it right.


Are you just starting to use boxes and having problems?


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

sean B said:


> Are you just starting to use boxes and having problems?


no . still a hand finisher full on . lookin at the boxes. when some extra change comes in , i'm getting some . i know all about checking joints . it's a must. just because the recess is full, dosen't mean the seam is level. [ my view]


----------



## 1/2 irish (Nov 21, 2010)

*Hawk & Trowel*

Definitely Hawk & trowel, all the way. Learned using a pan & knife but that didn't last after I was showed a hawk. I learned/picked it up so quickly and nevered look back.... A Tip, if you need to put the hawk somewhere to "free up" your hand just slap the hawk w/ the mud side onto the wall and it will stay stuck on the wall, almost like a suction cup. Then when your done just pull the hawk off the wall and just wipe the mud off the wall and put back on your hawk.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

1/2 irish said:


> definitely hawk & trowel, all the way. Learned using a pan & knife but that didn't last after i was showed a hawk. I learned/picked it up so quickly and nevered look back.... A tip, if you need to put the hawk somewhere to "free up" your hand just slap the hawk w/ the mud side onto the wall and it will stay stuck on the wall, almost like a suction cup. Then when your done just pull the hawk off the wall and just wipe the mud off the wall and put back on your hawk.


l.o.l


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> you sound like a typical machine taper to me :thumbsup:
> some hand tapers (a few) and other trades hear the term "machine taper" and they think every aspect is done by machine.there's still a lot of hand work being done too:yes:


Aw, I thought they were using robots

Everyone knows robots are cool.http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-046.gif


----------



## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

1/2 irish said:


> Definitely Hawk & trowel, all the way. Learned using a pan & knife but that didn't last after I was showed a hawk. I learned/picked it up so quickly and nevered look back.... A Tip, if you need to put the hawk somewhere to "free up" your hand just slap the hawk w/ the mud side onto the wall and it will stay stuck on the wall, almost like a suction cup. Then when your done just pull the hawk off the wall and just wipe the mud off the wall and put back on your hawk.


i can't tell if you're joking or not but thats not the worst idea i have ever heard. i feel like it would fall down and you are just hoping someone will try it.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

carpentaper said:


> i can't tell if you're joking or not but thats not the worst idea i have ever heard. i feel like it would fall down and you are just hoping someone will try it.


actually it does work,it's one of those things you dont do all the time,laughed real hard 1st time I seen it done,Works better when done on the ceiling .you will be surprised how long it will stay up there,,,mud is glue so .....:yes:


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> actually it does work,it's one of those things you dont do all the time,laughed real hard 1st time I seen it done,Works better when done on the ceiling .you will be surprised how long it will stay up there,,,mud is glue so .....:yes:


Mud is glue huh, Well i had a cam am tube 1/2 full of cove mud and it had a little hard bit stuck in the end, so i passed it to my helper to clear it while i washed up some tools, He put the handle on the ground with the nozzle pointing up at the ceiling and grabbed the tube and huffed and puffed and pushed down on it hard, all of a sudden it unblocked and shot a heap straight up and missed his head and hit the ceiling, I heard him laughing so came back inside for a look, It was huge, unbelievable, The size of that staligmite hanging from the ceiling was incredable, And it just stayed there????


----------



## 1/2 irish (Nov 21, 2010)

*It really works..*

Carpentaper, this rerally works. I used to just put the hawk between my knees to free up my hawk hand to apply the tape but it would fall to the ground w/ the slightist flinch. Trust me, it works like a suction cup. And yes it does not slide off the wall, not to mention it is a good trademark on the walls you know who tapped them. Thats how I got the nickname "Moonie" as it looks like a full moon on the walls speratically around the rooms.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

1/2 irish said:


> Carpentaper, this rerally works. I used to just put the hawk between my knees to free up my hawk hand to apply the tape but it would fall to the ground w/ the slightist flinch. Trust me, it works like a suction cup. And yes it does not slide off the wall, not to mention it is a good trademark on the walls you know who tapped them. Thats how I got the nickname "Moonie" as it looks like a full moon on the walls speratically around the rooms.


but your name is 1/2 Irish here
maybe we will start calling you 1/2 moonie then ,that way people will think you walk around with your pants half hanging down ,shining a 1/2 moonie at everyone:yes:


----------



## 1/2 irish (Nov 21, 2010)

2buck... yes I am 1/2 irish...................... my lower half.


----------



## screwyardwork (Jan 26, 2011)

I started out with p&k ,went to tools later on. The man that taught me tools was real clean,so i became real clean. Finally went back to hand tools . There are a lot of guys out working tools that make a mess.As far h&t my old boss from the 70s could smoke anybody and not get a drop of mud on him .I however never learned that.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

its all on me, not the floor. i catch it somehow.


----------



## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

that's awfully nice of you. i try and dodge my blobs, or use my hawk like a sweet shield.


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

I tend to catch mud blobs right where my shirt sleeve ends, or at the neckline of my shirt. The worst is in the eye though. Especially hot mud.

However, I have been complimented for reflexes in catching blobs with both pan and hawk when coating overhead.


----------



## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

ya, eventually you just know when and where it's gonna fall. it's by feel not sight.but yes those sleeve ones are awesome.


----------



## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

carpentaper said:


> ya, eventually you just know when and where it's gonna fall. it's by feel not sight.but yes those sleeve ones are awesome.


Be the mud....:laughing: It always seems to be right at the end of the loading stroke. Just try not to fall off your platform trying too hard to catch it:whistling2:


----------



## Kanto drywall (Feb 24, 2011)

Machine tools just look more pro. Also Hawk and Trowel I found I can do a better job with and most guys are faster with Hawk and Trowel. Each to their own anyways.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

every pix I've seen on this site seems to have a hawk in the background. :whistling2:


----------

