# So now I have to level the walls? Huh?



## Sue34 (Apr 5, 2013)

I been a finisher for nearly 30 years. Mostly commercial. I was a union foreman for the largest construction co. in Pittsburgh, Pa. Hospitals, office buildings, schools, malls, etc etc etc.

I dont feel like discussing why, but I recently moved to a new city and had to look for work. I finally found a company willing to hire me as just a finisher. Mostly companies here want you to frame, insulate, hang, finish, paint, clean, stock. I am making a fraction of what I was.


Today is my 2nd day. They are crazy here. Finishing a 3 story building off ladders. No freakin bakers at all. Even hanging totally off ladders. Try to finish a 40 ft long butt joint (that shouldn't of been there in the first place), 12 ft in the air off a damm ladder. A 12 ft ladder at that. That is one example of what I am going through. 

Now. I was in my own room since I started, doing my thing. But I noticed the other finishers were busting their joints WAY out. I finally asked the so called foreman what gives. He told me this is what they do. They take a 4-5ft straight edge and place it against the wall. Anyplace there is a gap, and there are PLENTY, must be filled. 

I went nuts. I said I am not a damm wall leveler, Im a drywall finisher. My job is not to fill in every damm place there are twisted studs or uneven walls. 2 guys spend 3 freakin weeks doing a bathroom. Believe that? 

My foreman told me there is noone on your ass, just do it. Asked me if I ever done commercial before. I said "a hell of allot more than you". He called this a level 5 finish. I called him bull****. Level 5 is a thin coat over the entire wall to give it all the same consistency. Thus eliminating the natural texture a sheet of board has. This guy had no idea what I was talking about.


Can someone please tell me if you ever had someone take a damm 4 ft straight edge on the walls, and expect you to fill in the gaps? Not talking 1-2 walls here guys, 3 freakin story building!


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

not sure your what your complaint is, that is the right way.....

A good taper adjusts to any taping system given by a company


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

Are you being paid hourly? If yes, go with the flow....you did say you needed a job.


Don't like the idea of working off of a ladder throughout though.


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## Sue34 (Apr 5, 2013)

I have decided to shut my mouth and do it their way. At least until I find something better.
But I dont have to like it. Frame the damm walls correctly in the first place. I just wanted to vent a little and see if you guys think as I do, that this is a colossal waste of time and money. 

That is why I was asking about the bead in my other post. I might suggest paper faced bead to them. It would be allot less to fill in.


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## fenez (Nov 30, 2009)

Sounds like they like wasting money, when in Rome.


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

level 5 is not just skimming the walls. Its means everything has to be flat with no imperfections. try and look at the USG drywall handbook for different levels of finish. The better the framing and sheetrocking makes it easier. :thumbsup:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Thats Bullsh!t, You put a level over our walls here and 

Even if the framings perfect its still 

Becouse the board is shouldered to hell 

Fill and level all that, No way, No way would people pay for that, No way would i do that, Even if you do, Mud keeps curing for months after so go ahead, Make a perfect wall and fill all that go back after a few months and check again.

Thats one of the stupiest things i have ever heard, Waste of time, labour and money.

And level five is a skim over the surface to make it all the same so the seams dont flash, Thats it.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

cazna said:


> Thats one of the stupiest things i have ever heard, Waste of time, labour and money.


Welcome to a "Union" job site:yes:


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

I did something similar once on three 12' sheets stood up side by side about 20' off the ground. But it is being used as a film screen.


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

To obtain a level 5 finish a skim coat is required. If your seams are crowned and butts are not flat then this is not a level 5 finish according to industry standards. hell i have seen people usr 8 foot metal studs to fill inn recesses and or high spots. Doesnt matter how bad the framing is but untill its flat and perfect its not a level 5 finish. Period. :yes:
*Level 5​*​​​​The highest quality finish is the most effective method to provide
a uniform surface and minimize the possibility of joint photographing
and of fasteners showing through the final decoration. This level of
finish is required where gloss, semi-gloss or enamel is specified, when
flat joints are specified over an untextured surface or where critical
lighting conditions occur. The prepared surface shall be coated with a
drywall primer prior to the application of final decoration.
All joints and interior angles shall have tape embedded in joint compound
and be immediately wiped with a joint knife or trowel, leaving a
thin coating of joint compound over all joints and interior angles. Two
separate coats of joint compound shall be applied over all flat joints
and one separate coat of joint compound applied over interior angles.
Fastener heads and accessories shall be covered with three separate
coats of joint compound.
A thin skim coat of joint compound shall be trowel applied to the entire
surface. Excess compound is immediately troweled off, leaving a film
or skim coating of compound completely covering the paper. As an
alternative to a skim coat, a material manufactured especially for this
purpose may be applied such as Sheetrock Tuff-Hide primer surfacer.
The surface must be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges. The
prepared surface shall be covered with a drywall primer prior to the
application of the final decoration.​
chapter5.indd 164


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

boco said:


> To obtain a level 5 finish a skim coat is required. If your seams are crowned and butts are not flat then this is not a level 5 finish according to industry standards. hell i have seen people usr 8 foot metal studs to fill inn recesses and or high spots. Doesnt matter how bad the framing is but untill its flat and perfect its not a level 5 finish. Period. :yes:
> 
> *Level 5 *
> ​​The highest quality finish is the most effective method to provide​
> ...


Someone highlight were it says the walls must be made flat and level, Did i read it wrong?? Doesnt it say coat the seams then coat the entire surface........Even use a sprayed on high build paint/plaster to do achive a high grade level 5..........That wont fill, it just evens the surface to help stop flashing.​ 
Exactly as above........Thats level 5.............Not filling walls with levels just making the surface the same product.​


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

Anyways before bidding any commercial jobs its best to read the usg hand book for drywall finishes. Its late and i am out for the nite but please read the requirements for all levels of drywall finishes. crowned seams and butts that show are discussed in the lower levels of finishes.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

cazna said:


> Someone highlight were it says the walls must be made flat and level, Did i read it wrong?? Doesnt it say coat the seams then coat the entire surface........Even use a sprayed on high build paint/plaster to do achive a high grade level 5..........That wont fill, it just evens the surface to help stop flashing.​
> Exactly as above........Thats level 5.............Not filling walls with levels just making the surface the same product.​


I'm not going to high lite it for you:whistling2:

If I did that, I would be agreeing with a Kiwi:blink:


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

I feel your pain Sue - been there.

Sometime back doing big condo project where the first framing contractor was thrown off site and second framing contractor had to fix the mistakes. Sometimes they can fix the walls before it is boarded sometimes they found it easier for us to level it with the mud. On those long hallways we were using hat track as a levelling screed. Just billed accordingly.

Dont think I like the working off ladders situation though. Maybe they don't know about scaffolding and bakers?


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

2buckcanuck said:


> I'm not going to high lite it for you:whistling2:
> 
> If I did that, I would be agreeing with a Kiwi:blink:


Come on chewbucker......no ones going to laugh at you if you agree with a Kiwi, we agree with you a lot and no one laughs


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## Philma Crevices (Jan 28, 2012)

I sit back and laugh at it all, muahahaha







http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...hAgfgV84CwO1CfzGUXXtU8FA&ust=1365340105417571


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

boco said:


> level 5 is not just skimming the walls. Its means everything has to be flat with no imperfections. try and look at the USG drywall handbook for different levels of finish. The better the framing and sheetrocking makes it easier. :thumbsup:


I read/heard somewhere that for a L5, it's a requirement that the walls have no variation greater than 3/16th....that's law. Sure, you can finish anything you like, but according to the law you can call bullsh*t on anything waving more than 3/16". 

As for the OP........if they're paying you hourly, just do what they want. Take...................your...................time, and do a real.....................nice........................job. 

I'll float walls with a 12ft. ladder as a straight edge if they want to pay me a decent wage. Hell, I'll float them with a toothpick :laughing:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

boco said:


> level 5 is not just skimming the walls. Its means everything has to be flat with no imperfections. try and look at the USG drywall handbook for different levels of finish. The better the framing and sheetrocking makes it easier. :thumbsup:


 Wheres this hand book set of rules when these guys are making wallboard??? :blink:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

moore said:


> Wheres this hand book set of rules when these guys are making wallboard??? :blink:


Dam right there Brother, It all wavey high shouldered rubbish........The world over :blink:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

cazna said:


> Dam right there Brother, It all wavey high shouldered rubbish........The world over :blink:


 HEY....I'm half set at the age of 45 to give up the finishing.
Been thinking of running a hanging crew and let some other fool deal with the bullchit..


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## fenez (Nov 30, 2009)

Level 5 is just a this skim, not a heavy build up of mud to even out walls.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

moore said:


> HEY....I'm half set at the age of 45 to give up the finishing.
> Been thinking of running a hanging crew and let some other fool deal with the bullchit..


Im half set at age 36 to give up self employment, This last month has sucked, Jobs clashing, Quoting, Trying to predict the future to customers, Thinking about it all 24/7, Evenings,weekends etc, Slow money. I just want to come home and forget it all till 8am the next day.

Someone save me and give a job, Clock in, clock out, Sounds good to me but im kidding myself, Been 16years at it now, I dont know any different and the pay would prob suck, But imagine getting paid sickdays and leave, OMG that would be good.

You need to back off on the hand work moore and cheat a little, Theres ways and means to make it easier on yourself.


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

There is a standard in the usg book but its not availible online. anyone who has ever worked union should know this. hell even with the Walmarts that only require a level 3 finish crowned seams are not acceptable. All I am saying is that a true level 5 looks good and appears flat in any lighting situation. Go ahead and bid jobs at IBM, phizer, Wyeth-ayrest and federal buildings. make sure to leave crowned seams and visible butts. just be prepared to get back charged from another company to come in and level them out. They dont call me boco backcharge for nothing.


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

cazna said:


> Im half set at age 36 to give up self employment, This last month has sucked, Jobs clashing, Quoting, Trying to predict the future to customers, Thinking about it all 24/7, Evenings,weekends etc, Slow money. I just want to come home and forget it all till 8am the next day.
> 
> Someone save me and give a job, Clock in, clock out, Sounds good to me but im kidding myself, Been 16years at it now, I dont know any different and the pay would prob suck, But imagine getting paid sickdays and leave, OMG that would be good.
> 
> You need to back off on the hand work moore and cheat a little, Theres ways and means to make it easier on yourself.


 I hear Mcdonalds is hiring. And yes i would like fries with that


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

boco said:


> I hear Mcdonalds is hiring. And yes i would like fries with that


 Hey!!! If those kids at Mcdonalds were getting paid $30 an hour ..that big mac combo would cost you around $25..:yes:


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Level 5 is the finish you get in the end,,,, NOT skimming. Skimming walls is just that SKIMMING walls. If you are skimming over walls that arent FLAT and free of imperfections then you are NOT giving a Level 5 finish PERIOD. Please quit calling level 5ing the walls, its skimming


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## taper71 (Dec 9, 2007)

chris said:


> Level 5 is the finish you get in the end,,,, NOT skimming. Skimming walls is just that SKIMMING walls. If you are skimming over walls that arent FLAT and free of imperfections then you are NOT giving a Level 5 finish PERIOD. Please quit calling level 5ing the walls, its skimming


Totally agree with this. level 5 is for painters to achieve.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

fenez said:


> Sounds like they like wasting money, when in Rome.


well if you think the walls in Rome are nice think again


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Would someone really try and fill and skim this??


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

cazna said:


> Would someone really try and fill and skim this??


 holy shiit Fuuck. i think I would hire a new framing crew. Is that metal or wood ? To fix that u would neeed a magician not a taper.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

boco said:


> holy shiit Fuuck. i think I would hire a new framing crew. Is that metal or wood ? To fix that u would neeed a magician not a taper.


Thats what most of our walls are like here, Its wood framing on the bottom pics and steel framing on the top two pics, and we glue the sheets, not screw so sometimes the glue holds it out if they dont push the board.

The first two pics are just the shouders on steel framing so you see why im saying, why would you?? How could you?? I dont know what you have in the rest of the world but thats what i got, Hopeless isnt it so just give up, Do the seams and coat for a level five.


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

cazna said:


> Would someone really try and fill and skim this??


Yes.


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

cazna said:


> Would someone really try and fill and skim this??


Nope!...unless they want to pay me for the attempt.

I guess it is open to interpretation.

http://nationalgypsum.com/resources/tech-talk-revisiting.htm


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

Man i am starting to lose a lot of respect for some members here. If you dont know what you are talking about its probly best just to shut the F up. Residential tapers stick to houses and condos. Commercial and industrial jobs are a different breed of animal where there are standards that must be met. When is the last time you have been on a residential job and theres been a clerk of the works and an independent QC (quality control) and an architect. Probly never. myself i dont do them anymore but i did when i was in DC9 and when me and my brother in law started as district reps for DC 35 in VT and NH. Basically I got my 10 years for retirement got married then decided not to travel anymore. even after 11 year on the scab side i still get offers from from national union companys to work for them as a non working foreman (superindendant) Turner-Whiting Stamford Conn, FW Thomas Medford Ore. Davis-Fetch NY. Murnane Plattsburgh NY. C Ramondo fort lee NJ. These companies are all well over 100 million gross income companies that at times have up to 2000 employees. Thats my resume and feel free to look them up. just because you have been taping for x amount of years doesnt mean you know jack **** when it comes to the bigboy jobs. If you dont know then you dont know. Go ahead and read the full usg book (not availible online for free) then feel free to put your 2 cents in. Untill then stick to residential.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

boco said:


> Man i am starting to lose a lot of respect for some members here. If you dont know what you are talking about its probly best just to shut the F up. Residential tapers stick to houses and condos. Commercial and industrial jobs are a different breed of animal where there are standards that must be met. When is the last time you have been on a residential job and theres been a clerk of the works and an independent QC (quality control) and an architect. Probly never. myself i dont do them anymore but i did when i was in DC9 and when me and my brother in law started as district reps for DC 35 in VT and NH. Basically I got my 10 years for retirement got married then decided not to travel anymore. even after 11 year on the scab side i still get offers from from national union companys to work for them as a non working foreman (superindendant) Turner-Whiting Stamford Conn, FW Thomas Medford Ore. Davis-Fetch NY. Murnane Plattsburgh NY. C Ramondo fort lee NJ. These companies are all well over 100 million gross income companies that at times have up to 2000 employees. Thats my resume and feel free to look them up. just because you have been taping for x amount of years doesnt mean you know jack **** when it comes to the bigboy jobs. If you dont know then you dont know. Go ahead and read the full usg book (not availible online for free) then feel free to put your 2 cents in. Untill then stick to residential.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

I give up


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

moore maybe if you werent so short sighted you would stop complaining about the sheetrock and do something about it. Like not using that brand. Duh. i guess thats why you still stuck in the 80s and dont even have the smarts to have a crew and buy a spray rig. maybe if you would take some others advice and knowledge you might have time to clean your piece of crap truck. or better yet do like i do and pay someone to do it for you. Durabond doesnt stick to screws or metal bead. BS. If you want to compare W2s you would be the one crying. like I said if you dont know shut your lips and stop giving disinformation. Typical taper know it all living pay check to pay check. No health care, retirement or means to make cash other then physical labor. How is that portfolio looking? LOL. Just another rebel without a clue. Truth hurts dont it. Work smarter not harder fool.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

boco said:


> moore maybe if you werent so short sighted you would stop complaining about the sheetrock and do something about it. Like not using that brand. Duh. i guess thats why you still stuck in the 80s and dont even have the smarts to have a crew and buy a spray rig. maybe if you would take some others advice and knowledge you might have time to clean your piece of crap truck. or better yet do like i do and pay someone to do it for you. Durabond doesnt stick to screws or metal bead. BS. If you want to compare W2s you would be the one crying. like I said if you dont know shut your lips and stop giving disinformation. Typical taper know it all living pay check to pay check. No health care, retirement or means to make cash other then physical labor. How is that portfolio looking? LOL. Just another rebel without a clue. Truth hurts dont it. Work smarter not harder fool.


I and my family have health care . I bust my ass for it.
Your not here...The supplies carry what they want .I don't get much choice in what board they carry
HOT MUD WILL NOT STICK TO METAL OR PLASTIC !!! Grasshopper!:thumbsup:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

boco said:


> moore maybe if you werent so short sighted you would stop complaining about the sheetrock and do something about it. Like not using that brand. Duh. i guess thats why you still stuck in the 80s and dont even have the smarts to have a crew and buy a spray rig. maybe if you would take some others advice and knowledge you might have time to clean your piece of crap truck. or better yet do like i do and pay someone to do it for you. Durabond doesnt stick to screws or metal bead. BS. If you want to compare W2s you would be the one crying. like I said if you dont know shut your lips and stop giving disinformation. Typical taper know it all living pay check to pay check. No health care, retirement or means to make cash other then physical labor. How is that portfolio looking? LOL. Just another rebel without a clue. Truth hurts dont it. Work smarter not harder fool.


Dude, take a chill pill bro.
Moore's a friggen pro!
Everyone's here just giving their opinions on the matter.
No one's here to judge others! Relax.
Remember CatD7? Ya....think anybody misses him? :no:

I mean, don't get me wrong! Moore's as ******* as they come! 
And you think his truck's bad!?!? Pfft!! You haven't seen mine.
So seriously, just relax!
We're all here to learn and have a little fun.
Not here to call out other members like that.
We appreciate your opinion on the matter. 
But keep in mind, it's also "Your opinion".
Doesn't have to be everyone elses.


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## gotmud (Mar 21, 2011)

boco said:


> moore maybe if you werent so short sighted you would stop complaining about the sheetrock and do something about it. Like not using that brand. Duh. i guess thats why you still stuck in the 80s and dont even have the smarts to have a crew and buy a spray rig. maybe if you would take some others advice and knowledge you might have time to clean your piece of crap truck. or better yet do like i do and pay someone to do it for you. Durabond doesnt stick to screws or metal bead. BS. If you want to compare W2s you would be the one crying. like I said if you dont know shut your lips and stop giving disinformation. Typical taper know it all living pay check to pay check. No health care, retirement or means to make cash other then physical labor. How is that portfolio looking? LOL. Just another rebel without a clue. Truth hurts dont it. Work smarter not harder fool.


Seriously? With all due respect that was uncalled for, PT is right we are all here to learn. We have newbies all the way up to seasoned pros like yourself and Moore. 
I understand we all have bad days but personal attacks are not necessary.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

.....


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

boco said:


> Man i am starting to lose a lot of respect for some members here. If you dont know what you are talking about its probly best just to shut the F up. Residential tapers stick to houses and condos. Commercial and industrial jobs are a different breed of animal where there are standards that must be met. When is the last time you have been on a residential job and theres been a clerk of the works and an independent QC (quality control) and an architect. Probly never. myself i dont do them anymore but i did when i was in DC9 and when me and my brother in law started as district reps for DC 35 in VT and NH. Basically I got my 10 years for retirement got married then decided not to travel anymore. even after 11 year on the scab side i still get offers from from national union companys to work for them as a non working foreman (superindendant) Turner-Whiting Stamford Conn, FW Thomas Medford Ore. Davis-Fetch NY. Murnane Plattsburgh NY. C Ramondo fort lee NJ. These companies are all well over 100 million gross income companies that at times have up to 2000 employees. Thats my resume and feel free to look them up. just because you have been taping for x amount of years doesnt mean you know jack **** when it comes to the bigboy jobs. If you dont know then you dont know. Go ahead and read the full usg book (not availible online for free) then feel free to put your 2 cents in. Untill then stick to residential.


I was union in the 80's in MA, LOCAL 577 painters and allied trades. Worked commercial for quite some time... jobs including multiple government jobs....Va hospitals, postal and Raytheon ( patriot missile launcher ) of whom had government contracts. many office spaces in Boston's financial district...New England building, John Hancock, federal St banks. high end housing , rowes warf, university green to name a few. While strict requirements, never were we required to act on ludicrous expectations.

West palm beach Fl.... Va job 12 story. jack ass Va overlord says we have to make all zinc control joints so you can't see the rise with ceiling Grid or base. For some reason sheets were lay down. Floating them will not rid you of the variation, unless you went the rise thickness ( perfectly flat right? ) from point to point, end to end of wall. If stood up sheets, they could have been placed in the recess but with the inevitable mismatch due to layout( irrelevant ) . Cut the paper back, rasp the core and sink the control joint? No,...it will compromise the integrity of the board. Can't stop at the bottom of the grid because the angle margin changes. WTF.......needless to say, the accepted the control joints floated ( SE ) out 4' on each side. 

All big commercial is under time constraints or suffer financial penalties, I highly doubt that any company will eat the time and cost of doing this,.... or that this level of L5 ( regardless of what the book says ) is even truly expected. Within the contract? Not on the jobs I've been on. 

As others have said, you can't fix everything and to expect it, is just plain Idiocy.


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## fenez (Nov 30, 2009)

I was in the tapers local , Lu 1974, that's N.Y.C... Worked in Citicorp building, wtc, Empire State Building, pan am building, dozens of federal and government jobs, my old man went to court for our union numerous times when we sued local 530 for doing our work. Level 5 is a skim coat period I don't care how much you want it to be a full leveling of the walls, usg makes a product for that its called veneer plaster, compound is never supposed to be applied thicker than 1/8" according to USG. Floating is supposed to be done with plaster that why they make that product to reduce photographin. The problem here is that guys want to remake the trade. In NYC. 
They spec level 5 right on the legend of the blue prints and it states what it is ( one thin skim coat). If it has to be thicker than that according to judge knickerson who presided the case against the plasterers union local 530 it's the plasterers job.


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## DrywallerDustin (Mar 1, 2013)

There should be no reason to fill and float like people are talking about here, your walls should be reasonably flat by the time you achieve a level 4, especially on these big commercial jobs that big, bad Boco is bragging about,If finishers are leveling and straightening walls then the drywall foreman dropped the ball on the framing.


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## harvv (Jul 21, 2012)

Not trying to get into any argument here but i have a question out of curiosity. What book or source are you guys talking about finishers having to completely level out walls getting that from?

I had never heard that before so did some quick googling and found two different sources that say its just a thin skim/film to eliminate flashing

http://www.usg.com/documents/construction-handbook/chapter5.pdf
usg level of finish guidelines

http://nationalgypsum.com/resources/tech-talk-revisiting.htm
NG guidelines


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## DrywallerDustin (Mar 1, 2013)

harvv said:


> Not trying to get into any argument here but i have a question out of curiosity. What book or source are you guys talking about finishers having to completely level out walls getting that from?
> 
> I had never heard that before so did some quick googling and found two different sources that say its just a thin skim/film to eliminate flashing
> 
> ...



That's classified, USG apparently only shares this top secret info with the drywall elite...


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

boco said:


> moore maybe if you werent so short sighted you would stop complaining about the sheetrock and do something about it. Like not using that brand. Duh. i guess thats why you still stuck in the 80s and dont even have the smarts to have a crew and buy a spray rig. maybe if you would take some others advice and knowledge you might have time to clean your piece of crap truck. or better yet do like i do and pay someone to do it for you. Durabond doesnt stick to screws or metal bead. BS. If you want to compare W2s you would be the one crying. like I said if you dont know shut your lips and stop giving disinformation. Typical taper know it all living pay check to pay check. No health care, retirement or means to make cash other then physical labor. How is that portfolio looking? LOL. Just another rebel without a clue. Truth hurts dont it. Work smarter not harder fool.


Wow.... just read this.......ouch!

Boco,

I have the USG Gypsum construction handbook ( 6th addition ) sitting in front of me right now. According to this USG book, pages 163 thru 165, L5 is a THIN SKIM of compound or equivalent surfacer over the entire surface. 

Now is one USG book contradicting the other?


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

harvv said:


> Not trying to get into any argument here but i have a question out of curiosity. What book or source are you guys talking about finishers having to completely level out walls getting that from?
> 
> I had never heard that before so did some quick googling and found two different sources that say its just a thin skim/film to eliminate flashing
> 
> ...


Harvv,

What you linked here, is exactly what is in my USG book.


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

DrywallerDustin said:


> That's classified, USG apparently only shares this top secret info with the drywall elite...


Über Secret Guild


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## gordie (Nov 6, 2012)

boco said:


> moore maybe if you werent so short sighted you would stop complaining about the sheetrock and do something about it. Like not using that brand. Duh. i guess thats why you still stuck in the 80s and dont even have the smarts to have a crew and buy a spray rig. maybe if you would take some others advice and knowledge you might have time to clean your piece of crap truck. or better yet do like i do and pay someone to do it for you. Durabond doesnt stick to screws or metal bead. BS. If you want to compare W2s you would be the one crying. like I said if you dont know shut your lips and stop giving disinformation. Typical taper know it all living pay check to pay check. No health care, retirement or means to make cash other then physical labor. How is that portfolio looking? LOL. Just another rebel without a clue. Truth hurts dont it. Work smarter not harder fool.



Yea man relax if you were my D.C. I would kick your ass talkin sh#t.
Or i would get back to work and talk sh#t behind you back and laugh at how you suck
Just kiddin mang I get mad too Don't take work too serous you should have some fun too.:thumbup:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

http://www.usg.com/documents/constru...k/chapter5.pdf
usg level of finish guidelines



look at the pic...need i say more?


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

_(Note that various organizations provide information about recom​​​​mended
standards or tolerances for finishing of drywall joints. See the​
Appendix for information about standards and tolerances. i am done. do your own research. this is from usg handbook. I cant get this info at this time but like i said earlier its in there. I also stated earlier that the framing and drywall application quality makes this easier to achieve. i dont BS and I dont expect drywallers in anyway to have to fix other trades wok for free. moore i do apoligize for calling you out but your whining all the time and lack of knowledge in his area gets me hot. I just hate to see us fellow drywaller tapers always get the shaft. If its not up to standards BACKCHARGE.
_


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

boco said:


> Man i am starting to lose a lot of respect for some members here. If you dont know what you are talking about its probly best just to shut the F up. Residential tapers stick to houses and condos. Commercial and industrial jobs are a different breed of animal where there are standards that must be met. When is the last time you have been on a residential job and theres been a clerk of the works and an independent QC (quality control) and an architect. Probly never. myself i dont do them anymore but i did when i was in DC9 and when me and my brother in law started as district reps for DC 35 in VT and NH. Basically I got my 10 years for retirement got married then decided not to travel anymore. even after 11 year on the scab side i still get offers from from national union companys to work for them as a non working foreman (superindendant) Turner-Whiting Stamford Conn, FW Thomas Medford Ore. Davis-Fetch NY. Murnane Plattsburgh NY. C Ramondo fort lee NJ. These companies are all well over 100 million gross income companies that at times have up to 2000 employees. Thats my resume and feel free to look them up. just because you have been taping for x amount of years doesnt mean you know jack **** when it comes to the bigboy jobs. If you dont know then you dont know. Go ahead and read the full usg book (not availible online for free) then feel free to put your 2 cents in. Untill then stick to residential.


Phhhftt those big jobs are nothing to brag about, been there done that. It's one big cluster f__k, bunch of clowns running around, taking orders from a foreman that screams orders out all day. A bunch of workers that need supervision, opposed to private company worker (PW sub trade/private DWC) which is a worker which needs no supervision. One such company said to me once, "we would be lost without you 2buck" and I replied back, "well if you hired guys who knew how to tape, you would not need me !!!" since all I did was fix !!!!!!!

As to the level 5,,, I keep joking on this site, quit talking about level 5 work, people talk like a level 5 job will fix a bad level 4 job, but it won't. Then theres talk of level 5 work stopping flashing/photographing with level 4 work, it's solution could be solved by the painter or the taper,,,,,, so shut up about level 5 work:furious:, I don't want to skim coat out walls, let the painter buy high grade primer or let him spray mud on the wall,,,, not me.

I think if I said to my current DWC the terms level 4 or 5 work, he would be going "WTF you talking about:blink:". In the commercial world I heard it mentioned all the time, but it's meaning meant a perfect job done without imperfections. Not only were the joints not to be seen, but every nick, ding and scratch was to be looked after. So the best way to achieve this was to skim out the walls. 

Was I ever told to make walls level before on commercial jobs before,,,, yep:yes:, and it was for walls being done in fancy imported Italian tile. They didn't say make it level 5, they started with a 6 foot level on the wall, then a 4 foot level, then a 2 foot level, then a one foot level till they found no hollows, never heard anyone say it was level 5 when I was done. Maybe they should call level walls level 6.

So everyone shut up about level 5 walls, home owners read these sites. They will get you to price a level 4 job, then they will see your price then say"Toss in a level 5 finish for free, and the job is yours":furious:


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

You cant have a level five finish before achieving a level 1 2 3 and 4 finish. True that. What is acceptable on 1 job may not be acceptable on another. a true level 5 is in is accomplished when in any lighting or high gloss paint everything uniform and all joints and fasteners are not exposed. Yes level 5 is just a thin skim to cover any joint banding and or flash from compound to drywall. Maybe my next job i will just give everything a thin skim and charge for a level 5. ya using tape and and filling in seams and feathering butts isnt really neccessary. LOl


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Phhhftt those big jobs are nothing to brag about, been there done that. It's one big cluster f__k, bunch of clowns running around, taking orders from a foreman that screams orders out all day. A bunch of workers that need supervision, opposed to private company worker (PW sub trade/private DWC) which is a worker which needs no supervision. One such company said to me once, "we would be lost without you 2buck" and I replied back, "well if you hired guys who knew how to tape, you would not need me !!!" since all I did was fix !!!!!!!
> 
> As to the level 5,,, I keep joking on this site, quit talking about level 5 work, people talk like a level 5 job will fix a bad level 4 job, but it won't. Then theres talk of level 5 work stopping flashing/photographing with level 4 work, it's solution could be solved by the painter or the taper,,,,,, so shut up about level 5 work:furious:, I don't want to skim coat out walls, let the painter buy high grade primer or let him spray mud on the wall,,,, not me.
> 
> ...


I'd thank you for that post 2buck but my "Thanks" button is missing.
Just disapeared. So thank you!


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

boco said:


> _(Note that various organizations provide information about recom​mended​_
> _standards or tolerances for finishing of drywall joints. See the_​_Appendix for information about standards and tolerances. i am done. do your own research. this is from usg handbook. I cant get this info at this time but like i said earlier its in there. I also stated earlier that the framing and drywall application quality makes this easier to achieve. i dont BS and I dont expect drywallers in anyway to have to fix other trades wok for free. moore i do apoligize for calling you out but your whining all the time and lack of knowledge in his area gets me hot. I just hate to see us fellow drywaller tapers always get the shaft. If its not up to standards BACKCHARGE._


 lack of knowledge of what? How to frame a house ? or how to make a wallboard? BACKCHARGE??? This aint NY...And I am not a union worker! 


I Like to whine! In the last year I meet up with reps from 2 wallboard plants..Next week I'll meet up with another.. so in the long run you may thank me for my whining. The last rep offered me money! I said to him I don't want your money..Fix the problem not just for me ,,but for all the other guys out trying to deal with this bullchit. I won't stop bitchin!


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

boco said:


> (Note that various organizations provide information about recommended
> standards or tolerances for finishing of drywall joints. See the
> Appendix for information about standards and tolerances. i am done. do your own research. this is from usg handbook. I cant get this info at this time but like i said earlier its in there. I also stated earlier that the framing and drywall application quality makes this easier to achieve. i dont BS and I dont expect drywallers in anyway to have to fix other trades wok for free. moore i do apoligize for calling you out but your whining all the time and lack of knowledge in his area gets me hot. I just hate to see us fellow drywaller tapers always get the shaft. If its not up to standards BACKCHARGE.


Appendix
" standards of acceptability for installation of framing, drywall panels and joint treatment vary in different parts of the United States. Never-the less, several organizations, including the metal lath/steel framing association, Gypsum Association and American Society for testing and materials ( ASTM), have published recommendations, standards and/or tolerances that may be required for a specific project.

Similarly, references for tolerances and quality in plaster work and acoustical ceilings are available. References for tolerances and quality in plaster work have been published by AIA MasterSpec and Diehl's " manual of lathing and plastering

Contractors and their customers should reach an agreement before starting the project regarding which tolerance standards will be used to judge acceptability of the work"

........................................
When I do a level 5, I leave the mud on long enough to absorb into the Sheetrock so that a heavier film is left. This in turn creates a solid white surface so that no bleed through is seen. I don't like the immediate "put it on take it off approach"

But still, the accepted definition of L5 is a thin skim.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Phhhftt those big jobs are nothing to brag about, been there done that. It's one big cluster f__k, bunch of clowns running around, taking orders from a foreman that screams orders out all day. A bunch of workers that need supervision, opposed to private company worker (PW sub trade/private DWC) which is a worker which needs no supervision. One such company said to me once, "we would be lost without you 2buck" and I replied back, "well if you hired guys who knew how to tape, you would not need me !!!" since all I did was fix !!!!!!!
> 
> As to the level 5,,, I keep joking on this site, quit talking about level 5 work, people talk like a level 5 job will fix a bad level 4 job, but it won't. Then theres talk of level 5 work stopping flashing/photographing with level 4 work, it's solution could be solved by the painter or the taper,,,,,, so shut up about level 5 work:furious:, I don't want to skim coat out walls, let the painter buy high grade primer or let him spray mud on the wall,,,, not me.
> 
> ...


 This reponse will not look very good on your portfolio 2buck


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

boco said:


> You cant have a level five finish before achieving a level 1 2 3 and 4 finish. True that. What is acceptable on 1 job may not be acceptable on another. a true level 5 is in is accomplished when in any lighting or high gloss paint everything uniform and all joints and fasteners are not exposed. Yes level 5 is just a thin skim to cover any joint banding and or flash from compound to drywall. Maybe my next job i will just give everything a thin skim and charge for a level 5. ya using tape and and filling in seams and feathering butts isnt really neccessary. LOl


I'm confused. Is YOUR level 4 finish not up to snuff ? Why would you need a level 5 to hide your joints? They should be invisible by this time. I thought the point of a level 5 was to blend the wall into the joint and not the other way around.
I don't have a problem with what you are doing but I would probably call that a level 8 or 9 personally.


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## harvv (Jul 21, 2012)

DrywallerDustin said:


> That's classified, USG apparently only shares this top secret info with the drywall elite...



www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pNhDEop5I8k#t=5s


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## mudslingercor (Jul 2, 2009)

I've taped custom luxury homes for 17 years and I do level walls with a 5ft darby i call it aesthetic corrections. But its only for major ceiling dips esp natural light ect anything that u go "whoa that out". Its always an extra and discussed with builder before applied. Last major one i did was 70'Lx 25'Hxcorridor dark brown paint glass window floor to ceiling both ends, u could surf on the waves on that wall. 1 million in art painting going on it so they wanted perfect.That was a expensive fix. Just an example of the application for this method.


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## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

mudslingercor said:


> I've taped custom luxury homes for 17 years and I do level walls with a 5ft darby i call it aesthetic corrections. But its only for major ceiling dips esp natural light ect anything that u go "whoa that out". Its always an extra and discussed with builder before applied. Last major one i did was 70'Lx 25'Hxcorridor dark brown paint glass window floor to ceiling both ends, u could surf on the waves on that wall. 1 million in art painting going on it so they wanted perfect.That was a expensive fix. Just an example of the application for this method.


Sure, there are times when it is necessary but should not be expected on every friggen hump and dip.


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## Sue34 (Apr 5, 2013)

Listen to me.

We are all professional finishers who are experienced and care about quality. We may do things differently depending on several factors. How we was taught, location, etc etc etc etc.

I came here and started this post to vent my frustration at the idiocy of what they are making me to. No matter where you are from and how you learned to do drywall, or what your background is, you must agree what they are expecting is just stupid.

Picture a 3 story building. Many rooms and hallways. All metal studs and boards are stood straight up. Im telling you, putting a 3-4 ft. straight edge on the bulging joints, and expecting a finisher to fill in between the studs, and anyplace else the straight edge rocks, is nuts. They told me it took 2 guys 3 weeks to do 1 bathroom. Really? Im sorry but to me that is insane.

I will say it again. I am a drywall finisher. Not a freakin wall leveler. You want that kind of finish, get plaster or hard coat. It can not be good in the long run putting so thick of mud on the walls, in so many places. And only give us ladders to use? LOL 

Call me spoiled I guess. I never thought Id miss my union, job, state as much as I do now. 

I will take some pictures on my lunch and post them soon..


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