# Finishing Butt Joints



## 1/2 irish

Have had different ways shown to me but what is the best way to finish Butt Joints in the most effiecient way? Do you just go over twice w/ a 12" bowed trowel or make a mud path on both sides of the tape one your first coat and then a mud path over the tape itslef on your second coat then what?


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## git-r-dun

You could get 6 people to answer this and get 6 different answers on ways to do it. Some people run a box on each side of the tape for the first coat and then down the middle on the second and there done. As far as a bowed Trowel goes, I would say there are no good, you need a straight one. You could coat each side of the tape with your trowel for the first coat and on the second go over it all coating it a little wider with less mud. Its basically a preference thing I'd say.


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## SlimPickins

When coating by hand i use a 12" flat to load the butt(both sides), then wipe it down with my 20"...no lap marks. Second coat use my 14", and wipe with the 20"....done. _Maybe _a light sand to lose any float ridges and blend the edges. If the butt is severe, I'll use my homemade 36" bull float trowel with welded handles and still have only a two coat butt.

I've actually heard good things about the curved trowels (bowed), I've just never bought one.


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## 2buckcanuck

git-r-dun is right,except for the curve trowel part.I call the curve trowel the poor mans box without the numbers.just think about how boxes run,there's a arch in the blade.(adjustable arch)if your good with the trowel,you can fool SOME people that you were using boxes.
but I would drop down to a 10" curve trowel,till you can afford 10" boxes,12" too big(I'm assuming your running flats with it too)there's lots of reading on this site about butts ,just grab a beer or 2 and start reading,


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> there's lots of reading on this site about butts ,just grab a beer or 2 and start reading,


 2Buck...I thought you left this site to do research on butts


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> When coating by hand i use a 12" flat to load the butt(both sides), then wipe it down with my 20"...no lap marks. Second coat use my 14", and wipe with the 20"....done. _Maybe _a light sand to lose any float ridges and blend the edges. If the butt is severe, I'll use my homemade 36" bull float trowel with welded handles and still have only a two coat butt.
> 
> I've actually heard good things about the curved trowels (bowed), I've just never bought one.


just curious,why such big trowels,are you a very big man or something,with big arms.If so I will call you sir slimpickins.don't you get a lot of ripples,skip marks,waves,or what ever you call them,the bigger the trowel the harder it is to push,the smaller the trowel the more SPEED you can get (which is what you want) .there's some misconception that plaster guys used big honking trowels to get their work level which is not the case at all.then guys carry this theory over to taping.
think of the machines (boxes) their 7,8,10,12,inches,a trowel that is any bigger than that is going to wreck your shoulders,wrist,or elbow down the road,and your coating will be smoother ,speed stroke your coats,not big coat.
just trying to save your arms:yes:


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> 2Buck...I thought you left this site to do research on butts


i will be,but not the butts were talking about:whistling2:


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## Goodmanatee

10 inch curve towel. A must in any tapers bucket!


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## betterdrywall

SlimPickins said:


> When coating by hand i use a 12" flat to load the butt(both sides), then wipe it down with my 20"...no lap marks. Second coat use my 14", and wipe with the 20"....done. _Maybe _a light sand to lose any float ridges and blend the edges. If the butt is severe, I'll use my homemade 36" bull float trowel with welded handles and still have only a two coat butt.
> 
> I've actually heard good things about the curved trowels (bowed), I've just never bought one.


Slim' I do the same exact method; only I use a 10 inch to spread the material both times. My 20 inch blade is very old.. and I will be very sad when it is no good anymore .. very protective of that knife.. Anyway Happy Thanksgiving... I'm up early with nothing to do' and the kids are still sleeping' And yes Captain they will always be kids to me,,Sometimes it is a bit scary for me to call my son a kid.. Ha!


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> just curious,why such big trowels,are you a very big man or something,with big arms.If so I will call you sir slimpickins.don't you get a lot of ripples,skip marks,waves,or what ever you call them,the bigger the trowel the harder it is to push,the smaller the trowel the more SPEED you can get (which is what you want) .there's some misconception that plaster guys used big honking trowels to get their work level which is not the case at all.then guys carry this theory over to taping.
> think of the machines (boxes) their 7,8,10,12,inches,a trowel that is any bigger than that is going to wreck your shoulders,wrist,or elbow down the road,and your coating will be smoother ,speed stroke your coats,not big coat.
> just trying to save your arms:yes:


I'm not that big, 6' 3", about 210 lbs. I started running a 20" mainly to bridge big spreads between beads so I didn't have a big honking ridge down the center. Then I used it one time to smooth a butt, and I was sold. I find that wide knives leave ripples etc, but my trowels leave things quite smooth. There's a guy who I work with frequently who used to get irate at my large trowels ("don't pull that thing out on MY job!"), and he's been finishing for about 30 years.....and then the other day he says "I think I might have to go and get one of those 20" trowels". There comes a point where you're faster if you slow down


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## SlimPickins

betterdrywall said:


> Slim' I do the same exact method; only I use a 10 inch to spread the material both times. My 20 inch blade is very old.. and I will be very sad when it is no good anymore .. very protective of that knife.. Anyway Happy Thanksgiving... I'm up early with nothing to do' and the kids are still sleeping' And yes Captain they will always be kids to me,,Sometimes it is a bit scary for me to call my son a kid.. Ha!


Happy Thanksgiving!

I'm so protective of my trowels it borders on ridiculous!


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## Capt-sheetrock

Happy thanksgiving guys,,,,

My take on butts is this,,,,,

Run em till they are flat !!!!!!! period.

Some (most) can be done in two coats,,,, some (a small few)take 6 or 7 coats.


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## SlimPickins

Capt-sheetrock said:


> some (a small few)take 6 or 7 coats.


:laughing::thumbup:


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## tapingfool

*butt joints*

I have the rockers power plane the beams any butt joints there r as they use 16 footers mostly and some twelves so minimal butts. But u simply run a 7 then 12 down the middle same as flats!! 2 days time good luck!!:thumbup:


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## S&SDRYWALL

Not every butt is this same 

10"box on each side , 12" on each side, 12" down middle, cross off and check with 14"knife


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## JustMe

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Some (most) can be done in two coats,,,, some (a small few)take 6 or 7 coats.


The taper I'm working with is doing a side job. The home owner did a bathroom of his own awhile ago, and it took him 5 boxes of mud to do it.

The home owner got started on another area of his house, and then decided he didn't want to go through that again. So he hired my fellow taper.

Butt joints and knife coating: Once up the middle with a 10" knife, to load it/make sure there's enough on top of the tape, and give a flat center. Then 2 up the sides, with about a 3" spacing, to load the sides - but I don't feather those too much, at least at the beginning. I let the end of the knife furthest from the tape float some, to make sure there's enough mud to work with after, and so I don't peak the center. Then I work out the excess mud, starting by running the knife down each side, but overlapping them a few inches in the middle, to clean things up. I leave those runs fairly level, not tapering too much yet. As I move out to the edges to clean things up, I start tapering. But I don't worry too much about feathering the edges right out, if they're a touch high. The next coat will be a little wider, pretty much by doing the same thing as the 1st coat, but using a 12" knife. I'll feather out the edges on the 2nd coat.

Butt joints and boxing: With paper tape, 10 or 12" down the sides 1st, depending on situation. Then 10" or 12" down the middle, depending on which is handiest at the time, after the sides have dried. After that's dried, skim out with knife.

If using FibaFuse, I've started running 10" down the middle 1st, because the blade tears fibers from the Fiba, if I go down the sides 1st. Then after drying, 10 or 12" down the sides, depending on situation. Then after that dries, skim coat with knife.


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## silverstilts

Whats up with the naming of coats after you guys tape you all talk about first coating the butt seam. Don't you tapers out there realize the first coat is the tape coat then after that it is the second coat???? What do you consider the tape coat 0 coat? Good Grief I know most just call it a tape coat but I always learned to also call it the first coat.


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## silverstilts

JustMe said:


> The taper I'm working with is doing a side job. The home owner did a bathroom of his own awhile ago, and it took him 5 boxes of mud to do it.
> 
> The home owner got started on another area of his house, and then decided he didn't want to go through that again. So he hired my fellow taper.
> 
> Butt joints and knife coating: Once up the middle with a 10" knife, to load it/make sure there's enough on top of the tape, and give a flat center. Then 2 up the sides, with about a 3" spacing, to load the sides - but I don't feather those too much, at least at the beginning. I let the end of the knife furthest from the tape float some, to make sure there's enough mud to work with after, and so I don't peak the center. Then I work out the excess mud, starting by running the knife down each side, but overlapping them a few inches in the middle, to clean things up. I leave those runs fairly level, not tapering too much yet. As I move out to the edges to clean things up, I start tapering. But I don't worry too much about feathering the edges right out, if they're a touch high. The next coat will be a little wider, pretty much by doing the same thing as the 1st coat, but using a 12" knife. I'll feather out the edges on the 2nd coat.
> 
> Butt joints and boxing: With paper tape, 10 or 12" down the sides 1st, depending on situation. Then 10" or 12" down the middle, depending on which is handiest at the time, after the sides have dried. After that's dried, skim out with knife.
> 
> If using FibaFuse, I've started running 10" down the middle 1st, because the blade tears fibers from the Fiba, if I go down the sides 1st. Then after drying, 10 or 12" down the sides, depending on situation. Then after that dries, skim coat with knife.


 Another reason to not use fibafuse or should we call it fibatear:blink:


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## JustMe

silverstilts said:


> Whats up with the naming of coats after you guys tape you all talk about first coating the butt seam. Don't you tapers out there realize the first coat is the tape coat then after that it is the second coat???? What do you consider the tape coat 0 coat? Good Grief I know most just call it a tape coat but I always learned to also call it the first coat.


Taping the butt seam is the 1st coat? If so, I won't argue. It doesn't matter to me what it's called. 



silverstilts said:


> Another reason to not use fibafuse or should we call it fibatear:blink:


Tear, sometimes, when used in ways it doesn't seem well enough designed for - at least not well enough designed for to me. In the right places, right instances, I'm finding I'm liking it better than paper. Like today.


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## DSJOHN

Silver, its just in a name I guess. Ive never called taping 1st coat, but it is what it is.


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## JustMe

Isn't the 1st tape coat really the fire taping coat? 

How about the level 1 coat? Is it okay to call it that?

_DWT: Taking drywall finishing to a whole new level of complicated(tm)_


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## SlimPickins

silverstilts said:


> Good Grief I know most just call it a tape coat but I always learned to also call it the first coat.


So when you're talking about it you say something like "so this girl walked in while I was putting on the tape coat, also called the first coat, and right then I slipped on a blob and fell on my a$$, also called my rear end"?:jester:


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## Capt-sheetrock

Geeshee guys, lighten up abit,,,,,,, or are all you getting as old and cranky as me????

The first coat is just that, the first coat (thats when the tape is applied)

I have gotten alot of advice on butts since I posted my reply,,, Have you never gotten to a job where the hangers put a butt on a real bad ceiling joist, on a cathedral ceiling, where the light was pouring in???? Hence my referring to "you have to run it till it's flat" even it takes 6 or 7 coats,,, BTW, we refer to them as the 6th or 7th coat !!!!:thumbup:

Then I got to thinking,,, was I talking about the number of coats "after" the tape coat???? maybe it was the 7th and 8th coat????

If you have to just hit one side of a butt joint,,, is it the 6 1/2th coat,,, or does that qualify as the 7th coat???

Now I'm really confused,,,,,,,,

Capt>>>>>>>>>> heading back to the fridge for another homebrew


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## 2buckcanuck

It's those mesh tapers who screwed up the terms.
Can you call mesh tape your 1st coat ????????????
it's all their fault:furious::whistling2:


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## Capt-sheetrock

2buckcanuck said:


> It's those mesh tapers who screwed up the terms.
> Can you call mesh tape your 1st coat ????????????
> it's all their fault:furious::whistling2:


 Your right!!!!!!!!!!! its all clear now,,,,,,,,

Capt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to the fridge !!!!!


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## JustMe

Capt-sheetrock said:


> If you have to just hit one side of a butt joint,,, is it the 6 1/2th coat,,, or does that qualify as the 7th coat???


I learn so much from here.


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## Capt-sheetrock

JustMe said:


> I learn so much from here.


 Me too, I have learned how to find the fridge,,, no matter how long I stay on here !!!!!!!:thumbup:


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## JustMe

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Me too, I have learned how to find the fridge,,, no matter how long I stay on here !!!!!!!:thumbup:


I've been kind of wondering about something. Is there trips to the can in there somewhere? Or do you just kind of take care of things while at the computer?


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## JustMe

On 2nd thought, maybe it would be better not knowing(?)


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## Capt-sheetrock

JustMe said:


> I've been kind of wondering about something. Is there trips to the can in there somewhere? Or do you just kind of take care of things while at the computer?


 Now thats cold,,,, I like that about you !!!!:thumbup:


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## JustMe

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Now thats cold,,,, I like that about you !!!!:thumbup:


It's my personality type. It's the one of the 16 types that's most closely compared to BORG.


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## Final touch drywall

Learn to use a 24inch knife it will be yer best friend. 3 coats & no need to sand.


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## JustMe

Final touch drywall said:


> Learn to use a 24inch knife it will be yer best friend. 3 coats & no need to sand.


Does those 3 coats include the tape coat?  (a 'joke' from another thread).

I can't imagine right now using a 24". Not saying it might not make sense enough, but I've never seen it done. Do you put on a bunch of mud with another knife and then smooth it out with the 24"?


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## JustMe

JustMe said:


> Does those 3 coats include the tape coat?  (a 'joke' from another thread).
> 
> I can't imagine right now using a 24". Not saying it might not make sense enough, but I've never seen it done. Do you put on a bunch of mud with another knife and then smooth it out with the 24"?


Well I couldn't really see handling a 24" knife, along with a 24" pan, so I checked online for pans that size. Sure enough. They have them. 14" is the largest I've tried so far, and I haven't seen anyone else using more than a 12". It would be interesting (to me) to see a good 24" in action.


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## SlimPickins

JustMe said:


> Well I couldn't really see handling a 24" knife, along with a 24" pan, so I checked online for pans that size. Sure enough. They have them. 14" is the largest I've tried so far, and I haven't seen anyone else using more than a 12". It would be interesting (to me) to see a good 24" in action.


There's no such thing as a good 24" knife. Just my opinion. I've seen guys use them....can't hold a candle to a 20" trowel. I think you'd need to weld a rib on the backside to keep the thing from flexing, and showing major waves.


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## D's

I've got a 20" offset knife that's the shiz for wiping down polish coat, especially the butts. Can't use it with a pan or hawk though to apply mud - that's where the trowels come in


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## Final touch drywall

JustMe said:


> Well I couldn't really see handling a 24" knife, along with a 24" pan, so I checked online for pans that size. Sure enough. They have them. 14" is the largest I've tried so far, and I haven't seen anyone else using more than a 12". It would be interesting (to me) to see a good 24" in action.


I've always used a 14inch pan.In order to use the 24 properly u need your 12 & 6.12 to apply & feather your edge.The 24 is used for the final swipes.6 is used to clean the blade off into your pan.I put the 24 aside after the second coat & polish with 12.



SlimPickins said:


> There's no such thing as a good 24" knife. Just my opinion. I've seen guys use them....can't hold a candle to a 20" trowel. I think you'd need to weld a rib on the backside to keep the thing from flexing, and showing major waves.


I know what your talking about,they do flex,that's where you need to let the knife do the work,once you apply to much pressure you pull it all out.It definitely takes practice.Once you master it it will be your best friend


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## Rucco

*Omg!*

Ok first off
tape coat
first coat
second or finished coat depending on how it looks
anything after this is just soomething that wracks your head and makes you look at it waaaaaaaaaaaay to long.
And if they are being picky or want it to perfection Skim coat :thumbsup:

In my younger years I used a 14" pan but only a 12" knife on finish. I can only imagin how my thumb & index fingers would feel with anything more then that. I remember how they would feel after a dryspell when I was using those. Now its just a 12" pan and nothing larger then a 10" knife. Boxes however are 10" 12"

As for the but joint. By hand I ussualy rock my 10" on it first to see where its sitting at. Then a coat down each side for the rocky ones or just a fast one down the center. If its on both sides I do not feather the bad side unless I know I am going to get away with just 1 more coat. The bigest part on the hand end is your eyes. You know when its flat and thats that :thumbup:
As for the tools I got to the point where its just 2 on each side and 1 down the center then on my walk about I ussualy will check them out and skim or wip out the dirtybond and make it rite rite then and there. Of course there is more to it then that but its all in your eyes and if you can tell flat when its flat.


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## silverstilts

Rucco said:


> Ok first off
> tape coat
> 
> In my younger years I used a 14" pan but only a 12" knife on finish. I can only imagin how my thumb & index fingers would feel with anything more then that. I remember how they would feel after a dryspell when I was using those. Now its just a 12" pan and nothing larger then a 10" knife. Boxes however are 10" 12"
> 
> I'm with you on the 10" knife that is all I ever use... I think anyone useing something in the 24" better go back to school... I know most will say you can't get anything flat with a ten inch knife. I guess you just have to learn how to use it.. as far as boxing 10-12 and still hand finish butts after boxing. I like to run the middle first then the sides going down the middle first lets you know exactly how bad a but can be... if it covers the tape running down the middle you know you already started with a nearly flat butt, otherwise it will show which side is high. Sometimes I just run down the middle with a box then hand finish, piece of cake.. I had a guy that worked for me and the guy that taught him started him off with a 14" knife if it didn't look right he would get his knuckles hit and handed a smaller knife, if that didn't work he would get hit again and the next smaller knife . This continued but did teach the apprentice one thing how to finish a flat butt with a small knife.. And of course not to work for that s.o.b again.


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## Final touch drywall

Gotta go back to school.LMAO thats a funny 1.:lol::lol:
All your doing with a 10 inch knife is making a smooth bump.I get paid to make it flat & smooth,not just smooth bumps.Bring that 10inch knife into a million dollar home & they will call you back untill its flat & they check it with 4ft levels.

I've seen guys think a but is crowned with a 10inch knife, for it to only be hollow stud to stud.Next time run a level stud to stud & tell me what you think.


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## silverstilts

Final touch drywall said:


> Gotta go back to school.LMAO thats a funny 1.:lol::lol:
> All your doing with a 10 inch knife is making a smooth bump.I get paid to make it flat & smooth,not just smooth bumps.Bring that 10inch knife into a million dollar home & they will call you back untill its flat & they check it with 4ft levels.
> 
> I've seen guys think a but is crowned with a 10inch knife, for it to only be hollow stud to stud.Next time run a level stud to stud & tell me what you think.


I'd tell u the same thing go back to school.... Where is your skill and talent? If you were running a plaster coat would u still be using such a wide knife,(trowel) I think most plasters would laugh too death....My seams flats or butts are flat, and yes I have done many multi million dollar homes not to mention high end commercial work, but you will not understand because people like u can be somewhat closed minded I guess... I guess since I am doing it wrong that must be why do not have any call backs or any punch list crap to do huh? Heck if you are running a level across a couple of studs you may as well run one completely across the whole wall and see how flat it is...


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## 2buckcanuck

Final touch drywall said:


> Gotta go back to school.LMAO thats a funny 1.:lol::lol:
> All your doing with a 10 inch knife is making a smooth bump.I get paid to make it flat & smooth,not just smooth bumps.Bring that 10inch knife into a million dollar home & they will call you back untill its flat & they check it with 4ft levels.
> 
> I've seen guys think a but is crowned with a 10inch knife, for it to only be hollow stud to stud.Next time run a level stud to stud & tell me what you think.


to add to this argument.....I mean debate :whistling2:
I asked a dumb question on here one time,I asked how did they invent the box sizes.then it dawned on me at work,it was because of the knife/trowel sizes the plasterers/tapers were using.and when I got home and came on DT that night,thats the answer Columbia tools gave.their maximum box size is 12".
And if you really had to build something out,use a slicker.I'll let dsjohn explain what that is,and why they use to use one.bet he would tell you they don't use a 24" trowel doing plaster either.
dsjohn where are you


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## Rucco

*riiiiiiite*

:jester:Ive been in this trade for over 20 years now. A 10" knife is just fine for everything you've mentiond. Now thats not saying that at times a bigger knife isnt needed but untill then the 10 stays in hand :blink:. Ive worked in some high class places as well as commercial. A knife is like a guitar. Its not what kind you play but how you play it.


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## SlimPickins

If you don't do what I do then you're a sh!t-for-brains.

At least, that's the attitude I'm sensing here right now. If the guy wants to use a 24" knife, who cares? I've used a piece of cardboard to wipe mud in between an angle and a steel door frame. I'm going to have to agree with the Captain here...do what it takes to get it done right.

I broke out my 4 ft. trowel (homemade) a couple days ago on a remodel to a previous remodel where the wall framing was way out of whack...and my long time taper friend who comes from a family of plasterers says "I was skeptical, but now I see how handy that thing could be." He, unlike some people, is an old dog willing to learn new tricks. In the time it would take to float out 4 feet with a 10", and wipe it right, you can wipe it in one big pass....and not have to sand the he!! out of it. After all, while a plasterer may not always be using slicks, feather-edges, darbies, etc....they have them sitting around somewhere, for when they're needed.

Personally, if I start with the 20" _trowel,_ I can almost always skip a third coat on the butts. That doesn't mean I'm trying to tell any of you how to do YOUR job, it's just how I do mine. For me, a pan and knife are for holding mud that's too sloppy to sit on a trowel.


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## Capt-sheetrock

SlimPickins said:


> If you don't do what I do then you're a sh!t-for-brains.
> 
> At least, that's the attitude I'm sensing here right now. If the guy wants to use a 24" knife, who cares? I've used a piece of cardboard to wipe mud in between an angle and a steel door frame. I'm going to have to agree with the Captain here...do what it takes to get it done right.
> 
> I broke out my 4 ft. trowel (homemade) a couple days ago on a remodel to a previous remodel where the wall framing was way out of whack...and my long time taper friend who comes from a family of plasterers says "I was skeptical, but now I see how handy that thing could be." He, unlike some people, is an old dog willing to learn new tricks. In the time it would take to float out 4 feet with a 10", and wipe it right, you can wipe it in one big pass....and not have to sand the he!! out of it. After all, while a plasterer may not always be using slicks, feather-edges, darbies, etc....they have them sitting around somewhere, for when they're needed.
> 
> Personally, if I start with the 20" _trowel,_ I can almost always skip a third coat on the butts. That doesn't mean I'm trying to tell any of you how to do YOUR job, it's just how I do mine. For me, a pan and knife are for holding mud that's too sloppy to sit on a trowel.


 Well said Slim. I have a 24" trowel left over from my days as an EIF stucco dummy. I kept it just for re-models where they take a wall out and it leaves that 4" gap in the ceiling. After hanging a piece of scrap in it, that 24" trowel (which is loaded by hand) will float that nasty gap out better than anything. Only need it like once every 5 years, but ,when ya need it, ya need it.


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> If you don't do what I do then you're a sh!t-for-brains.
> 
> At least, that's the attitude I'm sensing here right now. If the guy wants to use a 24" knife, who cares? I've used a piece of cardboard to wipe mud in between an angle and a steel door frame. I'm going to have to agree with the Captain here...do what it takes to get it done right.
> 
> I broke out my 4 ft. trowel (homemade) a couple days ago on a remodel to a previous remodel where the wall framing was way out of whack...and my long time taper friend who comes from a family of plasterers says "I was skeptical, but now I see how handy that thing could be." He, unlike some people, is an old dog willing to learn new tricks. In the time it would take to float out 4 feet with a 10", and wipe it right, you can wipe it in one big pass....and not have to sand the he!! out of it. After all, while a plasterer may not always be using slicks, feather-edges, darbies, etc....they have them sitting around somewhere, for when they're needed.
> 
> Personally, if I start with the 20" _trowel,_ I can almost always skip a third coat on the butts. That doesn't mean I'm trying to tell any of you how to do YOUR job, it's just how I do mine. For me, a pan and knife are for holding mud that's too sloppy to sit on a trowel.


yeah,do it any way you want,but someone else is insulting those that use a 10" trowel or knife
quote "All your doing with a 10 inch knife is making a smooth bump.I get paid to make it flat & smooth,not just smooth bumps"
go back and read post,I won't say names:whistling2:


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## Capt-sheetrock

2buckcanuck said:


> yeah,do it any way you want,but someone else is insulting those that use a 10" trowel or knife
> quote "All your doing with a 10 inch knife is making a smooth bump.I get paid to make it flat & smooth,not just smooth bumps"
> go back and read post,I won't say names:whistling2:


That was posted by someone that only knows one way to do things. Statments like that show the posters limited experience!!


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> yeah,do it any way you want,but someone else is insulting those that use a 10" trowel or knife
> quote "All your doing with a 10 inch knife is making a smooth bump.I get paid to make it flat & smooth,not just smooth bumps"
> go back and read post,I won't say names:whistling2:


Where I come from, we custom order aluminum screeds cut to the length of each wall in the house, and run them from floor to ceiling (they have internal support bars to keep them laser straight). If you put a rotary laser on them edgewise, the entire wall glows pink, no hollows, shadows, etc... We charge $100/ft to finish, and it is always absolute perfection. Unfortunately, we haven't worked in a while.

(I'm looking for the "waking up from a dream" emoticon but I can't find it)

It's *ALL *smooth bumps! A person can't possibly hope to introduce a hump in a wall (ie. tape and mud), and expect the entire wall to be flat, unless they're going to float the entire wall to the thickness of the butt-tape. What's important is _can you see it? _


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## 2buckcanuck

$100 a sq foot
so if you did a 8x12 wall for me it would cost $9,600
guess our system is the Russian lada (drywall/tape)
It's like one of the guys who taught me said "tapings like the world,it looks flat when you look at it,but when you investigate into it,it's round" .....so.....dips,valleys etc when you put a straight edge to it.
so ,what can I say,for 5000 years people thought the world was flat,and some still do,I'll just do work for them:whistling2:


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> $100 a sq foot
> so if you did a 8x12 wall for me it would cost $9,600


For you, I hab berry good deal....$9585, vinyl offer....you like?



2buckcanuck said:


> It's like one of the guys who taught me said "tapings like the world,it looks flat when you look at it,but when you investigate into it,it's round" .....so.....dips,valleys etc when you put a straight edge to it.
> so ,what can I say,for 5000 years people thought the world was flat,and some still do,I'll just do work for them:whistling2:


:thumbup:


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> For you, I hab berry good deal....$9585, vinyl offer....you like?
> 
> :thumbup:


Canadian dollars, right:whistling2:


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> Canadian dollars, right:whistling2:


I had to google the Russian Lada. Dude, that is one sweet ride. Isn't the Canadian dollar stronger than the US these days? If I could charge $100/ft, I would work my a$$ off for the next two years and retire at the ripe old age of 40.


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> I had to google the Russian Lada. Dude, that is one sweet ride. Isn't the Canadian dollar stronger than the US these days? If I could charge $100/ft, I would work my a$$ off for the next two years and retire at the ripe old age of 40.


think our dollars around par now,thanks for buying our oil
and one of my ex wife(s) bought one of these,worst car in the world,notice I said EX:furious:


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## silverstilts

I guess we all make valid points... Bottom line there is no such thing as a perfect wall as far a being truly flat vertical & horizontal... the whole point is how well can we deceive the naked eye.. I can see how a wide knife or trowel may make it somewhat easier (theoretically) but then again you still have to load it up or load up the joint before using it... sounds kinda messy... and as far as one coat and done,? I have my doubts unless you like to sand or do touch ups.... Perhaps where you have a heavy texture you may get by but not on anything pertaining to a smooth finish.. If you are using a wide knife or trowel what are you shoulders and wrists going to be like in a few years if not shot already? Next thing is I suppose we will be using a 14" knife to skim out screws because the six leaves to much of a hump eh? Or filling in an outside corner are you going to float that six feet out also? The finish of a butt seam is only one aspect of making a wall flat.. Personally I have heard more complaints from contractors how some tapers leave the lower inside angle not allowing their base to lay flat..


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## JustMe

SlimPickins said:


> It's *ALL *smooth bumps! A person can't possibly hope to introduce a hump in a wall (ie. tape and mud), and expect the entire wall to be flat, unless they're going to float the entire wall to the thickness of the butt-tape. What's important is _can you see it? _


Without doing as you said about floating, it is all smooth bumps. Right now.

My interest in many things lies not in _'what is'_, but in '_what can be'_, or even '_what could be'_ (for '_what could be_', think Star Trek). And my interest in taking things further is especially when _'what is'_ isn't all that I need, or would like.

So if flat walls are what I would like, how could I pull it off, without doing things like floating whole walls?

Rebel introduced us to Vario, with which one can V out a butt joint and use Vario in place of a tape. That would give a flatter wall.

I'm still a bit squeamish about the thought of doing it without any tapes, however. But if I was to do it, one thought I had about how to MAybe reduce the risk of any cracking coming through at the butt seam is to put some Vario into the V'd seam, and then press some FibaFuse into the seam, let that dry, and then cut off what's sticking above the board. Or maybe just cut FibaFuse into strips and try putting that in.

Could that possibly work well enough? Might it create/increase the possibility of things cracking along where the Vario and board would meet? Any other thoughts for getting a flat/'flat' wall?


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## JustMe

2buckcanuck said:


> and one of my ex wife(s) bought one of these,worst car in the world


A guy I once talked to about Ladas had considered buying a new one once. Till he reminded himself that the profits from it might go to funding the nukes pointed our way.


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## Saul_Surfaces

JustMe said:


> Without doing as you said about floating, it is all smooth bumps. Right now.
> 
> My interest in many things lies not in _'what is'_, but in '_what can be'_, or even '_what could be'_ (for '_what could be_', think Star Trek). And my interest in taking things further is especially when _'what is'_ isn't all that I need, or would like.
> 
> So if flat walls are what I would like, how could I pull it off, without doing things like floating whole walls?
> 
> Rebel introduced us to Vario, with which one can V out a butt joint and use Vario in place of a tape. That would give a flatter wall.
> 
> I'm still a bit squeamish about the thought of doing it without any tapes, however. But if I was to do it, one thought I had about how to MAybe reduce the risk of any cracking coming through at the butt seam is to put some Vario into the V'd seam, and then press some FibaFuse into the seam, let that dry, and then cut off what's sticking above the board. Or maybe just cut FibaFuse into strips and try putting that in.
> 
> Could that possibly work well enough? Might it create/increase the possibility of things cracking along where the Vario and board would meet? Any other thoughts for getting a flat/'flat' wall?


My own experiments with vario ended in hairline cracks, so be careful guys. It's still a dandy setting compound that that takes coat after coat without difficulty, and sands nice an hour after the last coat.


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## SlimPickins

silverstilts said:


> and as far as one coat and done,? I have my doubts unless you like to sand or do touch ups....


 I hope I didn't give the impression that *I* do one coat, and perhaps it's the numbering issue come back to haunt us. When I talk about coats, tape doesn't count. I coat tape, as opposed to wall joints. 



For a butt joint, tape it. Let dry.
Load it with mud pretty thin.
Pinch edges.
Grab big trowel, pull down the middle tight enough that tape is visible.
Pull both sides.
Skim coat is about the same but a couple of inches wider. On all but the most demanding butts, this is the finished product.
 My shoulders are fine, and I didn't just start doing this. I work with mud as thin as I can handle free of messiness (ie. will sit on the hawk) to avoid having to work to hard and make a mess.









JustMe said:


> Without doing as you said about floating, it is all smooth bumps. Right now.
> 
> My interest in many things lies not in _'what is'_, but in '_what can be'_, or even '_what could be'_ (for '_what could be_', think Star Trek). And my interest in taking things further is especially when _'what is'_ isn't all that I need, or would like.
> 
> So if flat walls are what I would like, how could I pull it off, without doing things like floating whole walls?
> 
> Rebel introduced us to Vario, with which one can V out a butt joint and use Vario in place of a tape. That would give a flatter wall.
> 
> I'm still a bit squeamish about the thought of doing it without any tapes, however. But if I was to do it, one thought I had about how to MAybe reduce the risk of any cracking coming through at the butt seam is to put some Vario into the V'd seam, and then press some FibaFuse into the seam, let that dry, and then cut off what's sticking above the board. Or maybe just cut FibaFuse into strips and try putting that in.
> 
> Could that possibly work well enough? Might it create/increase the possibility of things cracking along where the Vario and board would meet? Any other thoughts for getting a flat/'flat' wall?


I'm totally with you on "what could be". One way to avoid the bumps is to break the rock in between studs and use hollow-center butt shims. I believe the hollow introduced is about an 1/8", allowing the wall to be flat if the framing is done within smoothwall specs. I've never installed them, but I've sure thought about it. (http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/tips/invisible-drywall-butt-joints.aspx) I've also been thinking a lot about alternatives to drywall. It seems like perhaps it's an outdated process, but I could be wrong. There's all sorts of cool things we could do with the product though...I'm looking into airtight drywall assemblies right now...just another way to keep on the cutting edge :yes:


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## DSJOHN

Butt joints? Finish them out so they dont show--if it takes 4 coats so be it--we are hired to finish the walls,not just a number of certain coats-period!When using trowels,I coat fown the middle with a 16" curved,double the sides with a 1o" curved and double over that with a 14" [when using PC sander] or skimout when hand sanding,some bad ones require more coats. Lately on my larger ceilings Ive used Rocksplicers when hanging[about $3.85 each] and requires finishing out like a flat. And on the plaster tool side of things I only use my 11" plaster trowel when skimcoating-no other plaster tools for drywall---but I own alot of them[2buck].


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## DSJOHN

Slim,check these things out-been using for just over a year-------I think you need to go to Wilcotools.com and its the rocksplicers Ive been using!!


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## SlimPickins

DSJOHN said:


> Butt joints? Finish them out so they dont show--if it takes 4 coats so be it--we are hired to finish the walls,not just a number of certain coats-period!When using trowels,I coat fown the middle with a 16" curved,double the sides with a 1o" curved and double over that with a 14" [when using PC sander] or skimout when hand sanding,some bad ones require more coats. Lately on my larger ceilings Ive used Rocksplicers when hanging[about $3.85 each] and requires finishing out like a flat. And on the plaster tool side of things I only use my 11" plaster trowel when skimcoating-no other plaster tools for drywall---but I own alot of them[2buck].


:thumbsup: And that's what those things are called, Rocksplicers.


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## JustMe

Saul_Surfaces said:


> My own experiments with vario ended in hairline cracks, so be careful guys.


Did any of that happen with any V'd butt joints, Saul?

As I'd posted elsewhere, I did try it with 3 2' butt joints that had already cracked in a new building. I didn't have much hope that it would work - the whole building had cracks happening at joints - but I thought I'd try, to see what might happen.

There did end up being cracking along where the Vario and drywall met - but it could've been in part because I didn't clean out well enough any drywall dust after v'ing the already in place board with my knife.

On one joint, it cracked all along one side. On another, part way down one side, and part way down another. On another, it was the same, except in the middle of the joint. It cracked down the middle there for about 6".


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## SlimPickins

DSJOHN said:


> Slim,check these things out-been using for just over a year-------I think you need to go to Wilcotools.com and its the rocksplicers Ive been using!!


You beat me to the post! I just looked at them, and I'm going to start incorporating them into smooth wall (if I can remember!)


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## Saul_Surfaces

JustMe said:


> Did any of that happen with any V'd butt joints, Saul?
> 
> As I'd posted elsewhere, I did try it with 3 2' butt joints that had already cracked in a new building. I didn't have much hope that it would work - the whole building had cracks happening at joints - but I thought I'd try, to see what might happen.
> 
> There did end up being cracking along where the Vario and drywall met - but it could've been in part because I didn't clean out well enough any drywall dust after v'ing the already in place board with my knife.
> 
> On one joint, it cracked all along one side. On another, part way down one side, and part way down another. On another, it was the same, except in the middle of the joint. It cracked down the middle there for about 6".


Yeah, different experiment yesterday. Several seams that were V'd out just like they say. It's still a handy setting compound, but beware the tapeless claim.


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## JustMe

SlimPickins said:


> I'm totally with you on "what could be". One way to avoid the bumps is to break the rock in between studs and use hollow-center butt shims. I believe the hollow introduced is about an 1/8", allowing the wall to be flat if the framing is done within smoothwall specs. I've never installed them, but I've sure thought about it. (http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/tips/invisible-drywall-butt-joints.aspx)


Thanks, Slim. I'm going to check into it.

I do remember some guy having an online video of an inventive way he'd come up with for flat butts. It seemed like some work to do it, at the time I saw it, but maybe it could have some merit at times. Or maybe a variation of it might have some merit. If I can find the video again, I'll post it.



SlimPickins said:


> I've also been thinking a lot about alternatives to drywall. It seems like perhaps it's an outdated process, but I could be wrong. There's all sorts of cool things we could do with the product though...I'm looking into airtight drywall assemblies right now...just another way to keep on the cutting edge :yes:


Airtight drywall assemblies? Don't think I've heard of it.

I'm wondering what might be possible as far as drywall maybe having tapered ends. Or could there be a mix and match - say some board with standard ends and a taper on the other end, for areas like wall corners, and some board with tapers on both ends, for board in the field.


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## JustMe

Saul_Surfaces said:


> Yeah, different experiment yesterday. Several seams that were V'd out just like they say. It's still a handy setting compound, but beware the tapeless claim.


Where did it crack? Down the middle, above the seam? Along where the Vario and board joined?


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## JustMe

Saul,

I did a bit more thinking on your V'd out butt joints hairline cracking. If I remember right, someone, maybe it was you, said on another thread that they were getting what seemed like excessive shrinkage with Vario, and Rebel suggested that maybe too much water was being added. The person agreed.

Do you think that could've contributed to the cracking problem? If a person was to maybe make it more paste-like, could that help?


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## Saul_Surfaces

JustMe said:


> Saul,
> 
> I did a bit more thinking on your V'd out butt joints hairline cracking. If I remember right, someone, maybe it was you, said on another thread that they were getting what seemed like excessive shrinkage with Vario, and Rebel suggested that maybe too much water was being added. The person agreed.
> 
> Do you think that could've contributed to the cracking problem? If a person was to maybe make it more paste-like, could that help?


I'd mixed this stuff thick so it wouldn't shrink. It cracked to one side of the V, right next to the paper. It was second coated with vario too. Any thicker and it would have involved as much feathering as taping. Sanding the dry vario off to tape it proper was less than fun. Vario does sand better wet than any other setting compund I have available to me though. I'm not sure what to do about taping with it yet. I like my mud thin to tape with. I'll have to experiment to see if thick vario can go on top of thin vario (thin enough to cause shrinking) after just 50min. That'll have to wait for another out of sight opportunity (like the drywall in a utility room that will be behind the furnace)


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## JustMe

With regards to flat butt joints, I'm wondering what might happen if one was to, say, use something like some kind of a glue first in V'd out butt joints, then finish coat that.


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## JustMe

Saul_Surfaces said:


> I'd mixed this stuff thick so it wouldn't shrink. It cracked to one side of the V, right next to the paper.


You gave the V cuts a good cleaning before Vario-ing? Just asking.


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## Saul_Surfaces

JustMe said:


> You gave the V cuts a good cleaning before Vario-ing? Just asking.


Yes, the V's were as clean as they'd get without vacuuming them. As I see it, the gypsum inside drywall is crumbly, so it's likely the first 1/1000th of an inch of board that fails beside the V. That effect is supposed to be limited by the vario feathering out the joint above, but there's a limit to how thick i'll apply that (thus limiting the strength). Certainly no thicker than my butt joints would be if they're taped normally.


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## JustMe

Saul_Surfaces said:


> Yes, the V's were as clean as they'd get without vacuuming them. As I see it, the gypsum inside drywall is crumbly, so it's likely the first 1/1000th of an inch of board that fails beside the V. That effect is supposed to be limited by the vario feathering out the joint above, but there's a limit to how thick i'll apply that (thus limiting the strength). Certainly no thicker than my butt joints would be if they're taped normally.


Thanks, Saul. Maybe there's other ways, then. I did a little checking into the Rock Splicer Slim and DS had mentioned. Looks like there's a couple other things available as well - the Butt Hanger, and EZ-Backer. You'll see links to them in the left column on this page: http://www.ezbacker.com/rock_splicer.html

A JLC butt joint solution discussion ( http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42655 ) also mentioned an item called the Butt Taper, and some were saying it's their preferred method: http://www.butttaper.com/home.htm


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## JustMe

The Butt Taper site lists these as its advantages. Any thoughts?:

Utilizing the ButtTaper system with the backer board in between the studs has the following advantages over the current conventional method of 2-1/16" tape over a butt joint on a wooden or steel stud:


  The backer board contains only 4 to 5% moisture while a wooden stud/joist contains 18 to 19%. Practically, no wood shrinkage to damage the butt joint.
  Since the butt joint is off the stud/joist, it is not subjected to any direct forces.
  The drywall is bonded to a minimum 4" backer board; a greater area of the drywall is bonded than on the 1-1/2" wooden stud/joist rendering a stronger installation as tested by the National Association of Home Builders at their Research Center. The ButtTaper system can withstand about 3,000 pounds more force in compression and 400 pounds more in tension than the traditional method on a stud. Please read the complete NAHB Test Report on this website.
  The butt joint boards have a clean undamaged edge. The edge has not been weakened by screws or nails allowing for a stronger more secure installation. The end paper is tapered down and is not loose; no need to cut a ‘V’ edge notch in the butt joint to prevent ridging.
  The butt boards are secured on a flat plane.
  Setting compounds can be economically used on all three finishing coats rendering a faster finishing process. Setting compounds such as Easy-Sand and DuraBond are not affected by humidity and moisture, one of the principal causes of drywall failure, and offer a stronger bond than joint compounds.
  Tremendous savings in labor and material. The creation of the tapered edge and the finishing process requires less than 2 minutes with very little compound. Faster for the sheetrockers; 2" on each side to properly screw the butt boards.
  No callbacks, and gains a competitive edge with a superior monolithic drywall finish resulting in a far superior appearance of the project; no crown or chair molding curvature. Window, door and base board casing is straight.
   Eliminates any butt joint debates with your customers, general contractors and painters. A more aesthetic drywall finish sure to please yourself and everyone else.
  Allows for the usage of glossy paints without the fear of shadowing and eliminates the necessity for texturing.


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## SlimPickins

Saul_Surfaces said:


> Yes, the V's were as clean as they'd get without vacuuming them. As I see it, the gypsum inside drywall is crumbly, so it's likely the first 1/1000th of an inch of board that fails beside the V. That effect is supposed to be limited by the vario feathering out the joint above, but there's a limit to how thick i'll apply that (thus limiting the strength). Certainly no thicker than my butt joints would be if they're taped normally.


I seem to remember rebel20 saying that the best practice is to actually sponge out the 'v', so that there is no dust at all in the joint. This makes good sense, so that the vario can bond directly to the gypsum, instead of the microscopic dust layer that remains after cutting. I'm still going to continue to let others do my experimenting with this product though, for now. I used it once so far in a discreet location, and found it didn't perform all that differently from Hamilton Smooth Set. For big fill jobs, I'm going to stick with Ultra-Fill....I love that stuff.

Oh, and JustMe- airtight drywall assemblies are a fancy way of saying "lots of caulk while hanging". Unfortunately, part of the job needs to be done by carpenters, and may not work properly in cold weather....since caulk freezes pretty fast in these colder climates. I'm still looking into it. That and soundproofing (thanks to Ted).


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## carpentaper

Personally I have heard more complaints from contractors how some tapers leave the lower inside angle not allowing their base to lay flat..[/QUOTE]


this is a big nuisance. it takes a lot less time to wipe the corner tight at the bottom than it does to scrape it all out when installing base. it's not the horizontal flareout from tape and mud, its the taper being lazy and not giving the bottom the extra pressure it needs to stop it from being a bell bottom corner. the corner is almost a 1/4" out of plumb over 4" sometimes. total PITA in my opinion.


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## 2buckcanuck

I don't get the rock splicer thing,whats the difference from using plywood strips,u bar,steal stud,a side ways 2x4 etc......we just call it a floater or a backer,and they don't work so well on insulated walls neither,they tend to push out from the pressure of the insulation.
so whats the difference from a piece of wood,and one that cost 6 dollars at that.looks like a piece of wood to me ??????
someone plz explain difference


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> I don't get the rock splicer thing,whats the difference from using plywood strips,u bar,steal stud,a side ways 2x4 etc......we just call it a floater or a backer,and they don't work so well on insulated walls neither,they tend to push out from the pressure of the insulation.
> so whats the difference from a piece of wood,and one that cost 6 dollars at that.looks like a piece of wood to me ??????
> someone plz explain difference


Here are the differences I see...
The Rocksplicer has raised ends, forcing the sheetrock to actually cup at the joint, creating a hollow. This could certainly be achieved with plywood, but you'd have to staple 1/8-14" shim material at the edges (which equals more labor). A steel stud with ribs at the edges could work, but the ridge would have to be pretty proud to work. Any true wood material would have the same old shrinkage issues, with potential screw pops. I see your point about insulated walls though.... i think the rocksplicer was about $4...spendy, but if it can save on floating labor and materials (I know...negligible, but at $8-$9 a box it might be cost effective if you include the labor). 
I would find a way to justify the cost on a job that required that walls be flat, and not just a bunch of smooth lumps:jester::yes:


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> Here are the differences I see...
> The Rocksplicer has raised ends, forcing the sheetrock to actually cup at the joint, creating a hollow. This could certainly be achieved with plywood, but you'd have to staple 1/8-14" shim material at the edges (which equals more labor). A steel stud with ribs at the edges could work, but the ridge would have to be pretty proud to work. Any true wood material would have the same old shrinkage issues, with potential screw pops. I see your point about insulated walls though.... i think the rocksplicer was about $4...spendy, but if it can save on floating labor and materials (I know...negligible, but at $8-$9 a box it might be cost effective if you include the labor).
> I would find a way to justify the cost on a job that required that walls be flat, and not just a bunch of smooth lumps:jester::yes:


I don't know slim,I must be getting old,too much rocket science being applied to a straight forward trade to me.whats so hard about hiding a butt joint.it would be cheaper just to use mud,and get nice big smooth humps ,,,,slim:jester:
and for putting a "V" in a butt (not saying u slim)from what I have been told and seen,it's more to get the loose paper off at the end of the factory butt,it can flare/bubble or cause dry spots when you tape,paper don't stick to paper.just check out the end of sheet next time.
and yes there's those who just want it prefilled so they get the rocker to V it


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> I don't know slim,I must be getting old,too much rocket science being applied to a straight forward trade to me.whats so hard about hiding a butt joint.it would be cheaper just to use mud,and get nice big smooth humps ,,,,slim:jester:
> and for putting a "V" in a butt (not saying u slim)from what I have been told and seen,it's more to get the loose paper off at the end of the factory butt,it can flare/bubble or cause dry spots when you tape,paper don't stick to paper.just check out the end of sheet next time.
> and yes there's those who just want it prefilled so they get the rocker to V it


I hear you on the "what's so hard about hiding a butt joint", but I'm still interested in ways to reduce the amount of floating. Granted, I have yet to buy any of the butt-backers (and being the lazy person that I am, who knows when that will be).

As for the "V", I would have to agree wholeheartedly that it's just to remove the paper. I keep my blades extra sharp when v-ing, and peel off only as much paper as is needed. But, with vario, they require that the butt be v-ed to a much greater extent, probably because the stability of the material depends on there being a minimal amount that absolutely has to be there. Their literature states that when filling angles for instance, the adjoining sheet has to have about a 1/4" gap, so the mud can properly bond. and all butts must be v-cut at a 45 degree angle. Since I'm a one man band when hanging, the angles bit seemed like it would be a real pain in the a$$.

and paper sticks to paper just fine...it's the air behind it that it doesn't stick to :jester:


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## JustMe

....
http://troutandpartners.com/work/concepts.asp?language=


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## DSJOHN

Just Me,,, the Butt Taper is a huge POS. a lot of drywallers on another forum beat this thing to death for about 3 months[the owner /inventor ] of the tool was on that site. The guy has absolutely no clue about sheetrock[serious] . One of his comments "if you dont use the BT you,re a hacker,,,,according to him there are an awful lot of hackers? I use the Rocksplicers occasionally ,not on every job-- and alls I can say is try them,you wont be disappointed . I know in todays market things are tight so adding expense doesnt seem right, but you will see an advantage. 2Buck, I dont need them because I cant finish a butt joint, it makes the job quicker thus no money lost and a great job. They will not work in certain applications, thus I finish the normal or conventional way.


----------



## JustMe

DSJOHN said:


> Just Me,,, the Butt Taper is a huge POS. a lot of drywallers on another forum beat this thing to death for about 3 months[the owner /inventor ] of the tool was on that site. The guy has absolutely no clue about sheetrock[serious] . One of his comments "if you dont use the BT you,re a hacker,,,,according to him there are an awful lot of hackers? I use the Rocksplicers occasionally ,not on every job-- and alls I can say is try them,you wont be disappointed . I know in todays market things are tight so adding expense doesnt seem right, but you will see an advantage.


Thanks, DS. I did some more thinking on the Butt Taper, as compared to your recommended Rock Splicers. Right now, I'd have to agree with you. The Rock Splicers seem to make the most sense of what I've come across so far.


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## Axecutioner-B

Not for nothing, but doesn't it seem like the manufacturers could offer boards that are tapered on all sides for a very small mark up? Similar to making 54" board, there would be plenty of circumstances where it would well be worth it to spend an extra buck a board if it is that important right? This would remove the need for "butt tapers" & things like that all together wouldn't it?
________
Park Royal 2 Condo Pattaya


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## DSJOHN

:thumbsup:


Axecutioner-B said:


> Not for nothing, but doesn't it seem like the manufacturers could offer boards that are tapered on all sides for a very small mark up? Similar to making 54" board, there would be plenty of circumstances where it would well be worth it to spend an extra buck a board if it is that important right? This would remove the need for "butt tapers" & things like that all together wouldn't it?


Agreed


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## JustMe

Axecutioner-B said:


> Not for nothing, but doesn't it seem like the manufacturers could offer boards that are tapered on all sides for a very small mark up? Similar to making 54" board, there would be plenty of circumstances where it would well be worth it to spend an extra buck a board if it is that important right? This would remove the need for "butt tapers" & things like that all together wouldn't it?


Agreed as well. I posted something similar yesterday, but not as directly stated as you did:



JustMe said:


> I'm wondering what might be possible as far as drywall maybe having tapered ends. Or could there be a mix and match - say some board with standard ends and a taper on the other end, for areas like wall corners, and some board with tapers on both ends, for board in the field.


Maybe it's a 'falling down' of the marketing research done by board manufacturers? Maybe it's the equipment requirements/changes needed by them to make it happen? Maybe it's a "We're making money. Don't rock the boat" mindset? Maybe it's so obvious, that they're missing the possible opportunity? Lots of 'maybes'.


----------



## SlimPickins

JustMe said:


> Maybe it's a 'falling down' of the marketing research done by board manufacturers? Maybe it's the equipment requirements/changes needed by them to make it happen? Maybe it's a "We're making money. Don't rock the boat" mindset? Maybe it's so obvious, that they're missing the possible opportunity? Lots of 'maybes'.


I was looking for a quick answer to this question and I found this...it doesn't answer the question, but it was interesting anyway. http://www.enotes.com/how-products-encyclopedia/drywall

I believe the manufacturing process would quite a bit more complicated with tapered edges all the way around. Instead of a rolling process which produces many sheets at once, it would seem that you would be stuck making a single sheet at a time.


----------



## JustMe

Thanks for that, Slim. From what I read, tapered 4 sides should be possible, without having to resort to doing 1 sheet at a time. And especially with today's computer operated systems. 

But if they did have to slow down or limit production to make it, it could still be a good direction for someone willing to take the initiative, and maybe gear a production line for it. Maybe even build a mini production plant for it, if they couldn't justify a large one.

It reminds me of the steel mills, when most all used to think that _large_ was what was needed to make any real money. But the recovery of just the costs of those mills, before profitability, took a long time, so not many were too interested in firing a new one up.
Then along came the mini steel mills, that focused on running just particular items. They were able to be profitable in a much shorter time.

------

But maybe manufactured tapered butt ends wouldn't be so good for drywall finishers. They wouldn't be needed so much.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

they will never ever put a bevell in a butt,it makes no sense to,think about it.
1. on long walls/ceilings how often do they stay on center.
2. in a house,how many butt joints are there in a 10,000 sq house,10,20,then you make dw cost more!!! cheaper to do with mud in this case ,(2 boxes of mud)
3. more thinking for the dry waller (a no no)example "do I give him a bevell in the angle or the butt.(more teaching)
4.so now,at the end of a angle on a wall,the top sheet may have a bevell in it,but the sheet below will not.(pain in the butt) no pun intended
5.most manufacturers of DW keep the making of the bevell a trade secret.(wont show that on film)
here's something for you to ponder on justme,a tool that cuts/scores back side of sheet 3/4" in,then it also rips a 3/16 depth from it,now the end of the sheet is around 3/8 " thick,and it will sit recessed in on a stud.I use to do this with a utility knife,SOMETIMES if a stud was warped ,but it's time consuming,who knows,maybe there's some type of router bit that already does this,but if not,get inventing justme,this way,it's up to the tradesman when he wants to recess the butt......
I want 50% of the profits too:whistling2:


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## Capt-sheetrock

From the Ole Goats corner.

If you want a truley recessed butt joint for a resonable price and in resonably timely manner. 

Just carry a planer in your tool box. Take that planer, and plane the joist or stud where the butt is going. Presto, you have a recessed butt joint, no exspense and about 3 mins time.

Dern guys, this ain't rocket surgery ,,, ya know????


----------



## JustMe

2buckcanuck said:


> here's something for you to ponder on justme,a tool that cuts/scores back side of sheet 3/4" in,then it also rips a 3/16 depth from it,now the end of the sheet is around 3/8 " thick,and it will sit recessed in on a stud.I use to do this with a utility knife,SOMETIMES if a stud was warped ,but it's time consuming,who knows,maybe there's some type of router bit that already does this,but if not,get inventing justme,this way,it's up to the tradesman when he wants to recess the butt......
> I want 50% of the profits too:whistling2:


So backsides with no paper on such large areas, and at the end of sheets, is healthy for a finish job? I do have a lot to learn yet.

5% on router bits. After expenses.


----------



## JustMe

Capt-sheetrock said:


> From the Ole Goats corner.
> 
> If you want a truley recessed butt joint for a resonable price and in resonably timely manner.
> 
> Just carry a planer in your tool box. Take that planer, and plane the joist or stud where the butt is going. Presto, you have a recessed butt joint, no exspense and about 3 mins time.
> 
> Dern guys, this ain't rocket surgery ,,, ya know????


Got a planer for steel studs?

And remember, this is DWT. Anything here is rocket surgery.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Capt-sheetrock said:


> From the Ole Goats corner.
> 
> If you want a truley recessed butt joint for a resonable price and in resonably timely manner.
> 
> Just carry a planer in your tool box. Take that planer, and plane the joist or stud where the butt is going. Presto, you have a recessed butt joint, no exspense and about 3 mins time.
> 
> Dern guys, this ain't rocket surgery ,,, ya know????


to add to the rocket surgery,how thick is a butt with tape on it (1st coat)1/16",,,1/32",,,,1/8" how much mud do you really need to hide it .
a lot of butts is not a big deal when you have boxes,but when you have a whack of bead (in the hundreds) thats a big deal


----------



## 2buckcanuck

JustMe said:


> Got a planer for steel studs?
> 
> And remember, this is DWT. Anything here is rocket surgery.


And remember, this is DWT. Anything here is rocket surgery. oh gee ,your so right on that one,so very true
good comment justme:smartass::drink:


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

JustMe said:


> Got a planer for steel studs?
> 
> And remember, this is DWT. Anything here is rocket surgery.


Oh Gee,,,, steel studs he says !!!!!

Well, If you got steel studs, then you ain't got any bowed ones,,(my assumption),,, therefore, all you have to do is break the board between any two of them steel studs, and back em with plywood or any other wood laying around. 

Presto,,, a flat butt.

And as 2buck said, If you can't "hide" a piece of "tape", you need to give up on butt joints alltogether.:thumbsup:


----------



## SlimPickins

Capt-sheetrock said:


> From the Ole Goats corner.
> 
> If you want a truley recessed butt joint for a resonable price and in resonably timely manner.
> 
> Just carry a planer in your tool box. Take that planer, and plane the joist or stud where the butt is going. Presto, you have a recessed butt joint, no exspense and about 3 mins time.
> 
> Dern guys, this ain't rocket surgery ,,, ya know????


My good sir, I must now interject with some brain science :jester:

You've now created a big 1/8" depression in the wall (over a 4' span), and it is no longer flat. This does not conform with our meticulous mental masturbation on the nature of a truly flat wall (which I think is becoming more and more an issue of philosophy, as opposed to a practical practice.)


----------



## SlimPickins

JustMe said:


> And remember, this is DWT. Anything here is rocket surgery.


:thumbup:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

JustMe said:


> So backsides with no paper on such large areas, and at the end of sheets, is healthy for a finish job? I do have a lot to learn yet.
> 
> 5% on router bits. After expenses.


there's 2 problems if you can do it(carve back of sheet)give you some thing to think about now.
hint !!!!!one,think wood framing
hint 2,not hinting
can you win the cookie
15% of the cut:yes:


----------



## JustMe

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Well, If you got steel studs, then you ain't got any bowed ones,,(my assumption),,, therefore, all you have to do is break the board between any two of them steel studs, and back em with plywood or any other wood laying around.
> 
> Presto,,, a flat butt.


And presto - I quite likely get looked on with less than favour by the powers-that-be. 




Capt-sheetrock said:


> And as 2buck said, If you can't "hide" a piece of "tape", you need to give up on butt joints alltogether.:thumbsup:


I haven't had a problem for some while with hiding butt joint tapes. But if I can disappear them at times by a method that seems to make more sense than the usual, I'm interested.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

JustMe said:


> And presto - I quite likely get looked on with less than favour by the powers-that-be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't had a problem for some while with hiding butt joint tapes. But if I can disappear them at times by a method that seems to make more sense than the usual, I'm interested.


You could just "Whup out" the USG manual and show them that the manufactors recommend that you break ALL butt joints between the studs with the use of a a backer board.


----------



## JustMe

Capt-sheetrock said:


> You could just "Whup out" the USG manual and show them that the manufactors recommend that you break ALL butt joints between the studs with the use of a a backer board.


1st I have to convince them to start placing butt joints between the studs. Maybe they would allow it for at least some jobs at times. But if not, I'm interested in things like Rock Splicers for jobs outside of theirs.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

JustMe said:


> 1st I have to convince them to start placing butt joints between the studs. Maybe they would allow it for at least some jobs at times. But if not, I'm interested in things like Rock Splicers for jobs outside of theirs.


 If you want to use butt spincters , then use em. Seems we went from flat butt joints to getting the "powers that be" to let you hang rock the way you want to hang it. 

Butt with your own head !!!

I can't suggest anything to a man that already knows everything.:thumbup:


----------



## rebel20

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Happy thanksgiving guys,,,,
> 
> My take on butts is this,,,,,
> 
> Run em till they are flat !!!!!!! period.
> 
> Some (most) can be done in two coats,,,, some (a small few)take 6 or 7 coats.


Capt curious would this be a level2+

rebel


----------



## rebel20

Saul_Surfaces said:


> Yeah, different experiment yesterday. Several seams that were V'd out just like they say. It's still a handy setting compound, but beware the tapeless claim.


Saul,
I will have william call you today to see where the problem might be. This is a bit unusual. 

Rebel


----------



## rebel20

This is the only way to tape a butt joint


----------



## JustMe

Capt-sheetrock said:


> If you want to use butt spincters , then use em. Seems we went from flat butt joints to getting the "powers that be" to let you hang rock the way you want to hang it.
> 
> Butt with your own head !!!
> 
> I can't suggest anything to a man that already knows everything.:thumbup:


Drinking the good stuff again, are we? 

I have no real idea what you seem to be going on about. So I guess I don't know everything, if you're referring to me personally.


----------



## moore

OVER GLUE STUDS BEFORE AND AFTER BUTT , IT HELPS. I USE 12" AS MANY COATS AS IT TAKES . {[email protected] hand finisher}


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

JustMe said:


> Drinking the good stuff again, are we?
> 
> I have no real idea what you seem to be going on about. So I guess I don't know everything, if you're referring to me personally.


 I was not referring to you Justme. I was trying to point out that there are two things going on here. 
1) RECESSED joints (that just need to be singled out)
2) Flat joints (the standard for flat joints)

In these threads it always seems to come down to a "kicking" match, on "my way is the only way".

Lets look at the two

1) recessed joints are obviously butt joints that are "in" and can be covered by a single pass of a 12 (finish coat). A 12' level will show a flat wall (considering that ALL the studs are perfect).
2) Flat joints are joints that when you stick a 12 inch knife on em, it sits flat. That is the industry standard for flat joints. That can be acheived with a butt that is "proud" after its hung. 

So what generally happens is that one who uses devices such as butt splicers will post, and then bash everyone that is just interested in a "flat joint". Its a set-up,,, if the poster wanted to talk about recessed joints, they would not post a thread on "flat-joints",,, unless they have only just got started and are trying to "feel" their technique out on the rest of the population.

See, words mean things,,,,, this is a drywall site, and certain "words" mean certain things. 

Peace,,, and your right, I am an old orney goat !!!!!:thumbsup:


----------



## JustMe

I see where you're coming from. Thanks for that, Capt.


----------



## SlimPickins

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I can't suggest anything to a man that already knows everything.:thumbup:


It's about time you realized how super-duper incredibly awesome I am.


----------



## rebel20

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I was not referring to you Justme. I was trying to point out that there are two things going on here.
> 1) RECESSED joints (that just need to be singled out)
> 2) Flat joints (the standard for flat joints)
> 
> In these threads it always seems to come down to a "kicking" match, on "my way is the only way".
> 
> Lets look at the two
> 
> 1) recessed joints are obviously butt joints that are "in" and can be covered by a single pass of a 12 (finish coat). A 12' level will show a flat wall (considering that ALL the studs are perfect).
> 2) Flat joints are joints that when you stick a 12 inch knife on em, it sits flat. That is the industry standard for flat joints. That can be acheived with a butt that is "proud" after its hung.
> 
> So what generally happens is that one who uses devices such as butt splicers will post, and then bash everyone that is just interested in a "flat joint". Its a set-up,,, if the poster wanted to talk about recessed joints, they would not post a thread on "flat-joints",,, unless they have only just got started and are trying to "feel" their technique out on the rest of the population.
> 
> See, words mean things,,,,, this is a drywall site, and certain "words" mean certain things.
> 
> Peace,,, and your right, I am an old orney goat !!!!!:thumbsup:


 

:thumbup::thumbsup:
Way to put it Capt
Rebel


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

SlimPickins said:


> It's about time you realized how super-duper incredibly awesome I am.


 :thumbup:


----------



## rebel20

Saul_Surfaces said:


> Yes, the V's were as clean as they'd get without vacuuming them. As I see it, the gypsum inside drywall is crumbly, so it's likely the first 1/1000th of an inch of board that fails beside the V. That effect is supposed to be limited by the vario feathering out the joint above, but there's a limit to how thick i'll apply that (thus limiting the strength). Certainly no thicker than my butt joints would be if they're taped normally.


 
Cleaning the joints is done with a damp brush which also helps bond the material. I will do a video up and add it to the web site and post the link here.


rebel


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## CLUTCHSTEVENS

Wowsers!!! Why don't we go ahead and use a depth temper so that way its not finishing anymore but cluster****ing. I always use as small as a knife/trowel/tool as needed. I always thought it was tape, bedding and skimming and sometimes things need a extra coat or 4. This thread looks similar to the cub that plays with his bead too much.


----------



## cdwoodcox

I prefer to cut back paper on all butt joints when hanging. That way your not destroying blades on screws. Prefill with quickset when dry papertape. if butt is hollow run 12'' knife down middle next coat run 12'' knife down both sides last coat skim entire butt joint with 12'' knife. If butt is rocking run 12'' knife down both sides 1/2 way on paper tape. This recesses your papertape next coat 12'' knife over tape and 12''knife 1/2'' away from middle swipe. Last coat skim entire butt with 12'' knife. You end up with a 3' butt (if hollow when starting) or a 4' butt (if rocking when starting) I expect people to say that is too much work or overkill (heard it all before). The point is you find a way you like to run em and thats how you do it. I personally would never run a box on a butt or prefill a butt with any material and not tape it. But that may work great for someone else. One thing I've learned over the years is everyone has their own way of drywalling and everybodys way is the right way. I personally appreciate most of those guys in my area. I make alot of money every year fixing their way of drywalling.


----------



## SlimPickins

CLUTCHSTEVENS said:


> Wowsers!!! Why don't we go ahead and use a depth temper so that way its not finishing anymore but cluster****ing. I always use as small as a knife/trowel/tool *as needed*. I always thought it was tape, bedding and skimming and sometimes things need a *extra coat or 4*. This thread looks similar to the cub that plays with his bead too much.


"As needed" being the key words. I prefer to not do _any _extra coats, and if that means using a wide blade (and the presence of mind to look for nasty stuff _before_ I've gone full bore on finishing) then I'm okay with that.


----------



## moore

butt joints are a bitch! i agree with woodcox. my way is very similar. a GOOD hanger helps alot , check studs/joists. but most hangers are not finishers. finishers are better hangers, but we can't do both when work is rolling. at least not for me. when h/o who hung there own rock call . [I'm too busy] they always glue the butts. makes matters much worse.crosstripe all butts/bead. downstripe all flats. no ripples .


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

moore said:


> butt joints are a bitch! i agree with woodcox. my way is very similar. a GOOD hanger helps alot , check studs/joists. but most hangers are not finishers. finishers are better hangers, but we can't do both when work is rolling. at least not for me. when h/o who hung there own rock call . [I'm too busy] they always glue the butts. makes matters much worse.crosstripe all butts/bead. downstripe all flats. no ripples .


 Got to dissagree that finishers are better hangers.

Do you pay your hangers more if they check joints, figure rock and use the busted areas over window and door cuts?? Or do you expect them to spend twice the time and aggrivation for the same money??


----------



## moore

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Got to dissagree that finishers are better hangers.
> 
> Do you pay your hangers more if they check joints, figure rock and use the busted areas over window and door cuts?? Or do you expect them to spend twice the time and aggrivation for the same money??


I pay the hangers good money, but you are right. It's not there job to spend more time than they should to make me happy. hanging is HARD work. thats why i sub it out. plus i can't do both. when i hang myself i make less, cause I'm thinking about the finishing. good hangers here are VERY hard to find. no tools have to supply generator/ screwguns/ cords/gas/hay can we get a draw BS. no comp. i found a crew with none of these issues ,they treat me good ,so i don't pick. FRAMERS I PICK!!!


----------



## 2buckcanuck

moore said:


> I pay the hangers good money, but you are right. It's not there job to spend more time than they should to make me happy. hanging is HARD work. thats why i sub it out. plus i can't do both. when i hang myself i make less, cause I'm thinking about the finishing. good hangers here are VERY hard to find. no tools have to supply generator/ screwguns/ cords/gas/hay can we get a draw BS. no comp. i found a crew with none of these issues ,they treat me good ,so i don't pick. FRAMERS I PICK!!!


thank you for posting that,you saved me from agreeing with the captain twice in one night:whistling2:


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## Capt-sheetrock

As a hanger turned finisher I find, after the house is hung, that I can take a pan of 20 minute mud and fix in less than an hour, what would take a hanger another day to prevent. 

So when I'm hanging my own work, one of my favorite sayings is "F the finishers, if they can't take a joke".

Are we really "cry-baby's" that can't fix anything??? Are we pro's if we can only finish "perfect" work...... Heck anybody can do that.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Capt-sheetrock said:


> As a hanger turned finisher I find, after the house is hung, that I can take a pan of 20 minute mud and fix in less than an hour, what would take a hanger another day to prevent.
> 
> So when I'm hanging my own work, one of my favorite sayings is "F the finishers, if they can't take a joke".
> 
> Are we really "cry-baby's" that can't fix anything??? Are we pro's if we can only finish "perfect" work...... Heck anybody can do that.


dear LORD ,agreeing three times in one day,a new record


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

2buckcanuck said:


> dear LORD ,agreeing three times in one day,a new record


 I know, kinda makes ya feel yukky,,, 

We got to quit this!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## moore

Capt-sheetrock said:


> As a hanger turned finisher I find, after the house is hung, that I can take a pan of 20 minute mud and fix in less than an hour, what would take a hanger another day to prevent.
> 
> So when I'm hanging my own work, one of my favorite sayings is "F the finishers, if they can't take a joke".
> 
> Are we really "cry-baby's" that can't fix anything??? Are we pro's if we can only finish "perfect" work...... Heck anybody can do that.


fair enuff capt.:hang:


----------



## SlimPickins

Capt-sheetrock said:


> As a hanger turned finisher I find, after the house is hung, that I can take a pan of 20 minute mud and fix in less than an hour, what would take a hanger another day to prevent.
> 
> So when I'm hanging my own work, one of my favorite sayings is "F the finishers, if they can't take a joke".
> 
> Are we really "cry-baby's" that can't fix anything??? Are we pro's if we can only finish "perfect" work...... Heck anybody can do that.


I dunno about anyone else, but I always like to hand over a perfect house when I was a hanger, even if it meant I didn't make quite as much money.

And when you say "I can take a pan of 20 minute mud and fix in less than an hour......" you actually mean "fix in less than 20 minutes", right?:jester::whistling2:


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

SlimPickins said:


> I dunno about anyone else, but I always like to hand over a perfect house when I was a hanger, even if it meant I didn't make quite as much money.
> 
> And when you say "I can take a pan of 20 minute mud and fix in less than an hour......" you actually mean "fix in less than 20 minutes", right?:jester::whistling2:


 Yeah,, really most of all the "fixes" are where the rock was busted by the forks when they delivered it. Or if the framers didn't shim the tub walls, I'll cut the rock to the top of the flange, therefore haveing to fill that with 20 min,,, that kinda stuff. 

Now thats not to say that I don't screw up an angle or a butt sometimes and just leave it (If I'm finishing the job) Wouldn't leave that for another finisher,,,,,,,,,, cause most finishers act like they could NEVER fix that,,, know what I mean???


----------



## SlimPickins

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Now thats not to say that I don't screw up an angle or a butt sometimes and just leave it (If I'm finishing the job) Wouldn't leave that for another finisher,,,,,,,,,, cause most finishers act like they could NEVER fix that,,, know what I mean???


I hear you..."what the heII is this sh!t?"

I have a taper friend who left the production house we were working for, and he went out on his own....consequently, he had to start hanging his own board sometimes. One day a few months later he comes up to me and says "dude...I'm sorry if I ever gave you a hard time. Hanging clean is HARD!":yes:


----------



## Drywall_King

I like to run all flats then when done running all flats go back and the flats are allready set up run the butts on zero on each side then when your done all your buttjoints go back and fill everything with a trowel the same time you close all your flatt ends and it kinda leaves your butt joints fuller. but dont go wild and fill over your buttlines make your work look like a work of art with no heavy edges and no over flow...


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## 2buckcanuck

Nice work drywallking,we could work together,our work looks the same.those pics from Canuck land,I see the pro rock blue and yellow mud boxes.how do you find their other brands of mud,,, red,green etc....we have been using pro rock last 8 months or so,so kind of new to it.better than the cgc so far


----------



## smisner50s

Your work looks good drywall king.nice and neat and uniform.good job


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## Drywall_King

I got the Pro Roc Yellow and green from the Usa I lived on the border in British Columbia and after christmas i scored a house by walking in and talking to the home owner and we made a deal on the house 14000 sqft drywall house and he said he had $13000 dollars and thats it.. I said ok cause i had nothing and the house was just down the street from my house.. I called WinRoc and they gave me a price of $5700 for board alone.. I called the local USA builders center and they gave me a price of $4500 US for all the board and 45 boxs of mudd and 4 bags of proroc 90 hott mudd for prefilling.. i ended up paying $5100 with exchange for everything. The only thing was my friend and i had to haul all the sheets in the freezing cold and snow in to the house.. my friend and i spent a day and a half hauling all the sheets in taking care of them like gold flipping the sheets white side out and on a wall so cutting would be very easy and clean... we high balled the house in 24 days including week end offs and made only $3500 each. but being in a crule and unforgiving trade we got it done and payed some bills... the american mudd sucks though too meny pin holes after boxing and the mud was brown when comming out of the flat box... but we made it happen ..


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## Capt-sheetrock

*Okay guys, get ready to pile on the old goat*

2buck, before I'd go to the trouble to order more exspensive mud,,,, I'd just buy some chalk (like goes in a chalk box,,differant colors) and tint my own mud. That way you can get any color you want, for pennies.

Sometimes on a HO's house, I will buy kool-aid (5/dollar) and tint my point up mud,,, they love the fruity smell,,, works great in a house that you find offensive to your nose also.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Capt-sheetrock said:


> 2buck, before I'd go to the trouble to order more exspensive mud,,,, I'd just buy some chalk (like goes in a chalk box,,differant colors) and tint my own mud. That way you can get any color you want, for pennies.
> 
> Sometimes on a HO's house, I will buy kool-aid (5/dollar) and tint my point up mud,,, they love the fruity smell,,, works great in a house that you find offensive to your nose also.


LOL,,no no ,our mud boxes them selves, are like our money,their different colours.:yes:
but I do like your Kool-aid Idea,my labourer never brings a lunch,beer and tattoo's are more important to him,so if I tell him it's pudding ......:thumbsup:


----------



## muddermankc

never heard of anyone using a 20'knife,i like it, im gonna try it on butt


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

muddermankc said:


> never heard of anyone using a 20'knife,i like it, im gonna try it on butt


 Mudder, I went crazy for a cpl years and got into EIFS stucco (I have since recovered), but I kept the 24" trowel. For instance, when somone takes out a wall and your left with that 3 1/2" gap in the ceiling, a 20 or 24 trowel will make it look like childs play.


----------



## SlimPickins

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Mudder, I went crazy for a cpl years and got into EIFS stucco (I have since recovered), but I kept the 24" trowel. For instance, when somone takes out a wall and your left with that 3 1/2" gap in the ceiling, a 20 or 24 trowel will make it look like childs play.


:thumbsup:

Just like today, Had a job that had to be tape/top/skim, ready for sand and touch-up tomorrow...and it's got a window at the end of the wall that runs floor to ceiling. Ran into a baaaad butt, broke out the 20" trowel and Janis started singing "Bye bye bye baby bye-bye...":whistling2:


----------



## vvdrywall

Usually on the top coat i'll run once down the middle more on the deep side, then on the skim split the butt, then pull by hand with a 14! Seems to do the trick! Always have those butts that need a little more attention though!


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## Mario

On a typical butt
Top: Split it with the 8" box, go back and cover by hand. 
Skim: Split it with the 10" box, go back and cover by hand.
Prep: Split it with the 12" box, go back and cover it by hand. 

We generally do a light "brush down" sanding between coats as well. 

And we wonder why we're always running out of hours! lol 

btw: This is our typical lever 4 setup, with a tight skim coat over the whole thing (or roll on with a "final coat primer") to finish for a level 5


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## 2buckcanuck

Mario said:


> On a typical butt
> Top: Split it with the 8" box, go back and cover by hand.
> Skim: Split it with the 10" box, go back and cover by hand.
> Prep: Split it with the 12" box, go back and cover it by hand.
> 
> We generally do a light "brush down" sanding between coats as well.
> 
> And we wonder why we're always running out of hours! lol
> 
> btw: This is our typical lever 4 setup, with a tight skim coat over the whole thing (or roll on with a "final coat primer") to finish for a level 5


  holy ,someone put this thread back on topic !!!!!!
Were the same as you except drop the 8 " box .
there is another box thread where everyone got into more detail on how they did their butts. (for those looking :yes .


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## betterdrywall

I had a quickie wall I had to finish this last week,, Just using regular mud,, The heat and temp was perfect inside the home, so dry time along with other repairs was not a probelm,, was able to finish it out,, tape and coat ready for texture all in one day... Ran thin coat with 6 inch knive along the flats, wipe down with 8 inch knife,, turned around and coated both sides of the butt joints with the 6 , low side with 8inch, waited till the end of the day , coated everything with a ten,, either off set to low side, or down the center,,on the butts,,, next day sand touchup texture, All butt joints layed in flat, except for one that needed alittle more work, since this was a long wall over 25 ft, with window to the side of it, , I hit the bad butt diagonally, from high to low with a ten, only where the mud was needed. turned out great, less work , less sanding, and no joints showing ,,


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## moore

slim said it best. no wall is perfect. in my view, before sunrise or after sunset. shine a 500 halogen across wall or ceiling, if the butts look half way decent .you did good. butts are a 3itch. some break on the worst stud/joist . all you can do is soffin it up i say. after 5 passes i give up. sand that m/f. some houses come out great, others[[email protected] ceiling joist] you just gotta say, whens enough ,enough?? 14footers/16footers help lots. just don't go overboard with them. there are tricks in hanging to help the taper, but most hangers are not tapers.:wallbash:


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## smisner50s

JUST THINK IF EVERY HANGER HARD TO FINISH THERE WORK ONE TIME ....IT MIGHT CHANGE THE WAY THEY HANG....BUT ONLY FINISHING PERFECT HANGING WILL NOT MAKE YOU A GREAT FINISHER...YOU NEED OBSTICKELS TO OVERCOME TO TEACH YOU TO BE A GREAT FINISHER WEATHER YOU DO IT BY HAND OR MECHANICAL MEANS.I DONT THINK WE EVER STOP LEARING ..THATS MY OPPION:thumbsup:


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## 2buckcanuck

smisner50s said:


> JUST THINK IF EVERY HANGER HARD TO FINISH THERE WORK ONE TIME ....IT MIGHT CHANGE THE WAY THEY HANG....BUT ONLY FINISHING PERFECT HANGING WILL NOT MAKE YOU A GREAT FINISHER...YOU NEED OBSTICKELS TO OVERCOME TO TEACH YOU TO BE A GREAT FINISHER WEATHER YOU DO IT BY HAND OR MECHANICAL MEANS.I DONT THINK WE EVER STOP LEARING ..THATS MY OPPION:thumbsup:


you mad tonight smisner50s,or is your caps key stuck :whistling2:
I get to tape behind excellent rockers ,life is so tough:jester:


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## SlimPickins

:w00t:


2buckcanuck said:


> you mad tonight smisner50s,or is your caps key stuck :whistling2:
> I get to tape behind excellent rockers ,life is so tough:jester:


:laughing::w00t: It looks like he's been drinking?


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## smisner50s

no im in a good mood .yeah that key was on hahaahaha.not complaning just saying if one trade did the outher trades work once. everyone would have a better understanding of the of why there asked to do stuff different ways...agreed


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## smisner50s

you guys are funny..i guess that did look like a anger post..it wasent ...hahahahahaah


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## moore

2buckcanuck said:


> you mad tonight smisner50s,or is your caps key stuck :whistling2:
> I get to tape behind excellent rockers ,life is so tough:jester:


your Canadian . good products, good labor. this is the states. were always pissed. like a nation of painters .


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> your Canadian . good products, good labor. this is the states. were always pissed. like a nation of painters .


Speaking of painters, where did those guys go? Workaholic, Uwing, and the Michigan guy?:confused1:


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> Speaking of painters, where did those guys go? Workaholic, Uwing, and the Michigan guy?:confused1:


ssshhhh!!!!! slim,it's been peaceful lately
besides ,I agree with smisner50s ,each trade should be forced to do the trade before him,lets start with the painters :yes:


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> ssshhhh!!!!! slim,it's been peaceful lately
> besides ,I agree with smisner50s ,each trade should be forced to do the trade before him,lets start with the painters :yes:


Well I didn't say I MISSED them, did I?:jester:

How far back in the trades do I have to go? I've done drafting, concrete, framing, drywall, and painting. Sh!t, can I retire now?:w00t: (I like this new smiley!)


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## moore

2buckcanuck said:


> ssshhhh!!!!! slim,it's been peaceful lately
> besides ,I agree with smisner50s ,each trade should be forced to do the trade before him,lets start with the painters :yes:


Whens the last time you heard of a painter wearing a back brace,, or a hernia support ??


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## 2buckcanuck

moore said:


> Whens the last time you heard of a painter wearing a back brace,, or a hernia support ??


When a taper punches them out:whistling2:


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## smisner50s

Here is this new approach i am trying for boxing butts...so far so good


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## raven

Smisner, do you gage you butts. By that I meant do you check them before you start coating them. I run Norstar boxes first coat with a 12". I check all butts with a knife first if really crowned x x on 0 , if not so bad butt still crowned xx on 2 , if hairline flat, xx 3 . when I run across a real bad one I x *** triple split on low side. then gage again for second coat. there is three different methods that I know of that work with boxes.


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## moore

You can not level a butt.. Only soften it!!! 
tell them it's a bowed stud!  checking butts with an 8' level is B/S,, 
no one can can do that ,, the best you can do is , spend a little more time on the butts,, that's what they take. time 
1000 watt halogen will tell tell you what to do!


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## smisner50s

moore said:


> You can not level a butt.. Only soften it!!!
> tell them it's a bowed stud!  checking butts with an 8' level is B/S,,
> no one can can do that ,, the best you can do is , spend a little more time on the butts,, that's what they take. time!


 thats right all you can do is gradually make it dissapear..you cant make it flat all the material is on the surface of the rock...


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## raven

gauge has nothing to do with an eight foot level. just asking a question. has anybody used cardboard drywall shims .


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## smisner50s

raven said:


> gauge has nothing to do with an eight foot level. just asking a question. has anybody used cardboard drywall shims .


 no...what are cardboard drywall shims


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## moore

raven said:


> gauge has nothing to do with an eight foot level. just asking a question. has anybody used cardboard drywall shims .


YES . it works .. when i hang my own. sub hangers won't go for it. Some hard hats will check your butts and bead with a 8' level. :thumbup:


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## moore

smisner50s said:


> no...what are cardboard drywall shims


Create a hump on stud before and after butt..


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> YES . it works .. when i hang my own. sub hangers won't go for it. Some hard hats will check your butts and bead with a 8' level. :thumbup:


An 8' level on a butt is ridiculous. I can see using a 4' if it's a crucial application, but 8'?....only if they checked their walls BEFORE hang job:thumbsup:


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## sdrdrywall

If you want nice butt joints get buttboards just break between studs and use boards to make them recessed


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## smisner50s

sdrdrywall said:


> If you want nice butt joints get buttboards just break between studs and use boards to make them recessed


 I:thumbsup: got some coming for a insurance office were putting in


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## 2buckcanuck

I make all my butts the same size......why?????
We use to go around and check the butts with a straight edge. So some butts could be 36", 48",20",16"....or what ever. Then it would never fail, The H.O., GC, or some idiot off the street would ask "why are those joints all different sizes" So you would explain why......Then sure enough the next day you would see pencil marks through your butts, and your straight edge not where you left it:furious:

Now I make them all the same size. I might build out one or two,,,, maybe, but even then, it seems that one you build out, draws attention :yes:

bull sh1t baffles brains, 9 out of 10 times


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## jmr

i box on low setting (or no tension on the crown) over the tape partially and another run right next to that creating a valley.. while filling bead i'll trowel the centers filling the valley.. on final coat i box both sides of butt leaving about a 6in lenth in the center that needs a quick slip of the knife..

this makes your butts turn out absolutely mint and uniform and its fast.. if i get real picky i'll fan out by hand..


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## raven

Cardboard drywall shims are about a sixteenth of an inch. They cost around ten dollars for a bundle of fifty. Put a level, straight edge where sheet is breaking then build up on each side of butt joint with drywall shims. Well worth the time.


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## chris

*8" box 10" box*

we still split butts twice and touch up with 12" knife.We run it wide open 1rst coat [on butts] then usually tighten it up on 2nd split unless it still requires more mud . Then we pull the butt tight with a 12" knife.:thumbup: usually working with steel studs so framing is goood.If you cant get it to look right doin it this way then it is probaoly not your fault.. framing or bad hanging:furious: Tell them get out there checkbook


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## chris

*hmmm*



raven said:


> Cardboard drywall shims are about a sixteenth of an inch. They cost around ten dollars for a bundle of fifty. Put a level, straight edge where sheet is breaking then build up on each side of butt joint with drywall shims. Well worth the time.


 doesnt that give you 3 butts instead of 1 ?


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## moore

chris said:


> doesnt that give you 3 butts instead of 1 ?


No . just 2. The shims create the recess for the butt . Then you have to flatten out the hump the the shims create. Not to mention f/d up seam.
You can't win with the butts.Soften them up is the best I can do. Like 
Steve says ,It's mud on top of the board. IMO!


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## McDusty

i saw this 'recessed' butt thing in New Zealand when i was there. Seems to me to be a waste of time. it's for tapers that don't know what they are doing.


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## chris

McDusty said:


> i saw this 'recessed' butt thing in New Zealand when i was there. Seems to me to be a waste of time. it's for tapers that don't know what they are doing.


yup my thoughts exactly


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## Goodmanatee

*U.K. butts*

Standard Ceiling Butt.
This is the way i do my cross joints (english for butts). 
I use Fiba tape and fast set for 1st coat. Crowning the joint to hide the fiba tape. Picture 1

Then 10" box straight over the top. O.k. there is a little day light on the left side of a knife edge 2mm. Picture 2

Then 12" box. There is a little crown. But there is always going to be one or the tape will show. Picture 3

Picture 4 looks flat. Feels flat.

So I don't double up my butts. If i get bad ones, yes will make wider.


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## moore

Goodmanatee said:


> Standard Ceiling Butt.
> This is the way i do my cross joints (english for butts).
> I use Fiba tape and fast set for 1st coat. Crowning the joint to hide the fiba tape. Picture 1
> 
> Then 10" box straight over the top. O.k. there is a little day light on the left side of a knife edge 2mm. Picture 2
> 
> Then 12" box. There is a little crown. But there is always going to be one or the tape will show. Picture 3
> 
> Picture 4 looks flat. Feels flat.
> 
> So I don't double up my butts. If i get bad ones, yes will make wider.


Left side of butt needs more mud. Does the rust on that knife help the mud from slipping off?


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## Final touch drywall

Moore you forget,those machine guys wouldn't no where to start with a 12 inch knife.



BTW,how much of that tape actually covered the seam in pic 1.


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## sdrdrywall

We know what to do with it leave it in the toolbox because our butts are already done:whistling2:


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## moore

Final touch drywall said:


> Moore you forget,those machine guys wouldn't no where to start with a 12 inch knife.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW,how much of that tape actually covered the seam in pic 1.


trying your method on butts final touch. start skim tomorrow ,. good hangers are a plus.. using 10'' for block and skim.. 8'' block seams 10'' on skim seams. 

I have always used 12'' on butts ,, all 20 coats ,, but the older I get the more I think :blink:the 12'' bows up and causes more of a problem .


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## moore

sdrdrywall said:


> We know what to do with it leave it in the toolbox because our butts are already done:whistling2:


To be a good machine finisher!!!
You first have to know the ART of hand finishing!!!:yes:


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## smisner50s

I bet i would .....




final touch drywall said:


> moore you forget,those machine guys wouldn't no where to start with a 12 inch knife.
> 
> 
> 
> Btw,how much of that tape actually covered the seam in pic 1.


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## SlimPickins

Final touch drywall said:


> BTW,how much of that tape actually covered the seam in pic 1.


I think that's just a difference in depths of the recess, and one has dried before the other. It looks a little wide to be tape, unless someone out there is manufacturing 2 1/2" tape? And if so, he really missed it!


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## moore

slimpickins said:


> i think that's just a difference in depths of the recess, and one has dried before the other. It looks a little wide to be tape, unless someone out there is manufacturing 2 1/2" tape? And if so, he really missed it!


yep.


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## moore

Butt still needs another float on the left . move that rusty knife to the right,,
and it may need another float there also. you can gauge a butt ,,,,
ALL DAY LONG!!


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> Butt still needs another float on the left . move that rusty knife to the right,,
> and it may need another float there also. you can gauge a butt ,,,,
> ALL DAY LONG!!


Not when I'm done with it you can't.....:laughing:

Aaaah....I crack myself up.


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## Goodmanatee

moore said:


> Left side of butt needs more mud. Does the rust on that knife help the mud from slipping off?


I'm trowel man so the knife just sits the tool bucket.


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## 2buckcanuck

Goodmanatee said:


> Standard Ceiling Butt.
> This is the way i do my cross joints (english for butts).
> I use Fiba tape and fast set for 1st coat. Crowning the joint to hide the fiba tape. Picture 1
> 
> Then 10" box straight over the top. O.k. there is a little day light on the left side of a knife edge 2mm. Picture 2
> 
> Then 12" box. There is a little crown. But there is always going to be one or the tape will show. Picture 3
> 
> Picture 4 looks flat. Feels flat.
> 
> So I don't double up my butts. If i get bad ones, yes will make wider.


Are your butts floated over there, (put a backer in) Or are they landing on the studs. I know guys who would do that on commercial jobs if the ceilings were going to be sprayed. When you float the butts on steel stud using U bar/hat track they would tend to lift up, so you could get away with your method.
On average though, I would say most guys on this side of the pond double out (from what I read) weather by hand or machine they all have different methods and systems to get them to where their going.I know tapers have big egos to fill, but without realizing it, their doing one thing the same, most of them are making their butt joints at a 24" minimum or larger.

Your boxes are leaving a nice clean edge, what type are you using


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## Goodmanatee

2buckcanuck said:


> Are your butts floated over there, (put a backer in) Or are they landing on the studs. I know guys who would do that on commercial jobs if the ceilings were going to be sprayed. When you float the butts on steel stud using U bar/hat track they would tend to lift up, so you could get away with your method.
> On average though, I would say most guys on this side of the pond double out (from what I read) weather by hand or machine they all have different methods and systems to get them to where their going.I know tapers have big egos to fill, but without realizing it, their doing one thing the same, most of them are making their butt joints at a 24" minimum or larger.
> 
> Your boxes are leaving a nice clean edge, what type are you using


Yes the board is floated on what we call resi bar. Not straight on to the studs. 
Northstar high tops. Love em!


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## Final touch drywall

SlimPickins said:


> I think that's just a difference in depths of the recess, and one has dried before the other. It looks a little wide to be tape, unless someone out there is manufacturing 2 1/2" tape? And if so, he really missed it!


Thats fibafuse,look @ pic 1 again.Its sitting to the left of the recess,just barely covering the seam.I"m not blind:whistling2:


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## SlimPickins

Final touch drywall said:


> Thats fibafuse,look @ pic 1 again.Its sitting to the left of the recess,just barely covering the seam.I"m not blind:whistling2:


I looked again, and I apologize if I inadvertently insinuated that you are visually handicapped.:thumbsup:


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## chris

*not a bad box*



Goodmanatee said:


> Yes the board is floated on what we call resi bar. Not straight on to the studs.
> Northstar high tops. Love em!


 I have set of northstars also. good box just dont like wheel setup.I tend to use blueline boxes more have premier boxes too just a lil old. If we have a bunch of traffin in runs[cans ,lightboxes.vents etc] i will use the bluelines . if clear runs i use northstar


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## Goodmanatee

Final touch drywall said:


> Moore you forget,those machine guys wouldn't no where to start with a 12 inch knife.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW,how much of that tape actually covered the seam in pic 1.



The first coat was put on by hand and the tape is run down the middle of the seam.


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## Goodmanatee

chris said:


> I have set of northstars also. good box just dont like wheel setup.I tend to use blueline boxes more have premier boxes too just a lil old. If we have a bunch of traffin in runs[cans ,lightboxes.vents etc] i will use the bluelines . if clear runs i use northstar


Don't have a problem with the wheel set up. Still the original wheels. About 6 years old now.


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## chris

Goodmanatee said:


> Don't have a problem with the wheel set up. Still the original wheels. About 6 years old now.


O started on premier boxes with no moving wheel(axel type movement) they are good boxes compared to most what do you think in boxes?? favorite type??


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## smisner50s

check out my butt...haha


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## SlimPickins

smisner50s said:


> check out my butt...haha


Okay, now show us the view looking _toward _the light

I'm not going to say "nice butt".....cuz......you're a dude. :laughing:


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## smisner50s

SlimPickins said:


> Okay, now show us the view looking _toward _the light
> 
> I'm not going to say "nice butt".....cuz......you're a dude. :laughing:


 no matter how you look at it ...its flat....i had to steel that knife back off my mom she has been using it for gardening......dont ask:thumbsup: me why


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## moore

All i see is white and a rusty old knife sanded clean. yo mamas knife!

Just kidding ! I'm sure your butt is good and flat misner!!:lol:


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## silverstilts

Final touch drywall said:


> Moore you forget,those machine guys wouldn't no where to start with a 12 inch knife.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW,how much of that tape actually covered the seam in pic 1.


 I am sure all us machine guys are very capable of working with a 12" and even some of us are even better with a 10" but the thing is how many hand tool guys can say they are good at running all the automatic tools? It kinda makes us a little more versatile don't you think. Typical hand taper so hung up on old school.


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## SlimPickins

smisner50s said:


> no matter how you look at it ...its flat....i had to steel that knife back off my mom she has been using it for gardening......dont ask:thumbsup: me why


I believe you, I was just being a d!ck (what else is new, right?). What in the world would she use that knife for in the gargen? Although, wouldn't it be "cute" to see a little decorative landscaping fence made out of old drywall knives? no


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## moore

silverstilts said:


> I am sure all us machine guys are very capable of working with a 12" and even some of us are even better with a 10" but the thing is how many hand tool guys can say they are good at running all the automatic tools? It kinda makes us a little more versatile don't you think. Typical hand taper so hung up on old school.


One day I will submit a reply to this post silver.


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