# Which side of the trowel do you use?



## Nick Harmon

It's a trick question. I was having a discussion with a fellow mud slinger about this very question. He said he was watching my video and noticed that I flip my trowel only using one side. He mentioned he did it the same way but had received some flack from some of the other slingers. Here was my answer to him...
I use one side of my trowel because when I'm cutting in my angels I only have to keep one side of my trowel clean. That said, I worked with a plasterer out of Taos who used both sides and was very fast. Most people I train will start picking it up the way I do it but don't be fooled, there is no wrong way to finish work with a trowel. I've felt that over the years it's easiest for me to migrate toward whatever feels best. The main thing with any tool is to allow for flow. The more you resist the more difficult it is. Which side of the trowel do you use?


----------



## 2buckcanuck

You just admitted in your post you knew a guy who used both sides, and he was faster than you.

If this post is a cry for help, then you came to the right place. We can help you break your bad habit:yes::thumbsup:


----------



## Nick Harmon

2buckcanuck said:


> You just admitted in your post you knew a guy who used both sides, and he was faster than you.
> 
> If this post is a cry for help, then you came to the right place. We can help you break your bad habit:yes::thumbsup:


I said he was, "very fast." No one is faster than me...


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Nick Harmon said:


> I said he was, "very fast." No one is faster than me...


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Nick Harmon said:


> I said he was, "very fast." No one is faster than me...


You try getting a job with these guys Mr one side of the trowel user, you will be down the road kicking stones:yes:

At about the 1:20 mark, pay attention to the guy doing the ceilings, tell me if a guy using one side of the trowel could keep up.

I started out using a straight knife and pan, but also had a hawk and trowel. I was teaching myself the H&T, and I was limited in it's use, since I too only used one side of it. Then I began working around guys who did plaster:thumbup:

First Master taper I worked with, was a great guy (ex Plasterer) He was like "Sure you can use a straight knife







, what ever gets the job done",,,,,, After I coated a room out (and was so proud of my work and speed) I went out to see what he had done. I was in shock:blink:, he had 10 times more work done than me, and his work looked so sweet. I tossed my straight knife in the garbage, and went to the truck to get my hawk and trowel.

First thing he taught me was the back and forth motion, on the walls, then the ceiling. Just kept pushing the mud back and forth, and keeping it level......





Now I have passed down what I know to 2bjr, I bet he could get work with those guys in the first video:whistling2:


----------



## cazna

Hey Nick, Dont argue, Just listen, Bucks got a lot to offer when he goes off the sheep trail.

Great post 2buck, Cheers, Im prob crap on a trowel compared to those guys, Wow.


----------



## cazna

Ok, Dont laugh but heres me doing a bead, I did this about 7 months ago, There was a thread running hot on trowels and beads and clips were getting posted so i wondered how silly i looked doing it so did a clip to see for myself, I was going to post it but didnt get around to it, im self taught, The only tips or anyone else using a trowel ive ever seen is here on DWT, Turns out i tend to pre load sideways then swipe up and down........Stop laughing please, My middle name isnt speedy, Its fussy [email protected] :whistling2:

And i added a few pics of the same bead finished today, Look at the wall lights, Cant see the bead so it worked out ok, Thats all wallpapered by the way, And yes, I plastered, painted and wallpapered it all.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar

You are absolutely right Mr. 2buck . Troweling is a lot faster. You have more control Floating bad areas in the walls. Great video did you notice all the butterfly floats?


----------



## 2buckcanuck

cazna said:


> Ok, Dont laugh but heres me doing a bead, I did this about 7 months ago, There was a thread running hot on trowels and beads and clips were getting posted so i wondered how silly i looked doing it so did a clip to see for myself, I was going to post it but didnt get around to it, im self taught, The only tips or anyone else using a trowel ive ever seen is here on DWT, Turns out i tend to pre load sideways then swipe up and down........Stop laughing please, My middle name isnt speedy, Its fussy [email protected] :whistling2:
> 
> And i added a few pics of the same bead finished today, Look at the wall lights, Cant see the bead so it worked out ok, Thats all wallpapered by the way, And yes, I plastered, painted and wallpapered it all.
> 
> Troweling a corner bead. - YouTube


Not too bad Grass hopper Cazna

You said it yourself, you like to side stroke your mud on

I was taught and told to side swipe the mud on too for first coat. But that was the days of metal bead. The theory was, if there was any space or air gaps by the holes of the metal bead, or that steel mesh bead. You would stroke side ways first, concentrating at forcing mud under the holes of the bead, then stroke out the opposite direction. Main point being, trying to force mud under the holes of the bead for more strength. 

With paper bead there is no need for that. But I will also say the side stroke can still be used too, since the wall makes for a better hawk, than the one that is in your hand. You do have your strokes down, good, strong , long and clean:thumbup:....

Plus it's better to start from the bottom of the bead, then work up. have gravity working against you when loading, but working for you on the down stroke (finish stroke)

maybe I should be making more videos:whistling2:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Mr.Brightstar said:


> You are absolutely right Mr. 2buck . Troweling is a lot faster. You have more control Floating bad areas in the walls. Great video did you notice all the butterfly floats?


Yes I did Mr brightstar, but were talking 2 different systems, plaster and taping:yes:

One of the first guys to teach me how to be a PRODUCTIVE taper, was a plasterers labourer who became a machine taper. When he retired,he didn't want to see me out of work, so he sent me to a buddy of his, that was a plasterer trying to tape. He taught me about H&T, veneer plaster, medallions, hand designs, cove, and some stucco. But it was me, his younger under study, that had to teach him how to machine tape..... They are 2 different systems.

But b/c of your plaster experience Mr brightstar, you could be a really good taper. You just half to think different tools, material and systems. Their sorta both the same, but their not:yes:


----------



## Square Foot

Personally, while I can use the trowel either way, I'll more often than not flip the trowel coming out of the corner. I don't see anything wrong with it and am quite comfortable with this method... Whatever works for ya!

Impressive vids 2Buck


----------



## Square Foot

cazna said:


> Ok, Dont laugh but heres me doing a bead, I did this about 7 months ago, There was a thread running hot on trowels and beads and clips were getting posted so i wondered how silly i looked doing it so did a clip to see for myself, I was going to post it but didnt get around to it, im self taught, The only tips or anyone else using a trowel ive ever seen is here on DWT, Turns out i tend to pre load sideways then swipe up and down........Stop laughing please, My middle name isnt speedy, Its fussy [email protected] :whistling2:
> 
> And i added a few pics of the same bead finished today, Look at the wall lights, Cant see the bead so it worked out ok, Thats all wallpapered by the way, And yes, I plastered, painted and wallpapered it all.
> 
> Troweling a corner bead. - YouTube


Gordon Lightfoot...:thumbup:


----------



## cazna

2buckcanuck said:


> Not too bad Grass hopper Cazna
> 
> You said it yourself, you like to side stroke your mud on
> 
> I was taught and told to side swipe the mud on too for first coat. But that was the days of metal bead. The theory was, if there was any space or air gaps by the holes of the metal bead, or that steel mesh bead. You would stroke side ways first, concentrating at forcing mud under the holes of the bead, then stroke out the opposite direction. Main point being, trying to force mud under the holes of the bead for more strength.
> 
> With paper bead there is no need for that. But I will also say the side stroke can still be used too, since the wall makes for a better hawk, than the one that is in your hand. You do have your strokes down, good, strong , long and clean:thumbup:....
> 
> Plus it's better to start from the bottom of the bead, then work up. have gravity working against you when loading, but working for you on the down stroke (finish stroke)
> 
> maybe I should be making more videos:whistling2:


Thanks and great tips, You are right, And i did start off on the metal beads so maybe as you put it, Thats were i get it from, And good point about starting from the bottom, Sometimes i do, So why did i start from the top?? Maybe being lazy, Starting from the bottom is a big lean over, swing, and push up, Going from the top isnt such a twist, Then do the thigh area and up, Then just a little at the bottom?? Dont know really?? i just did??



Square Foot said:


> Gordon Lightfoot...:thumbup:


Next clue please??? Google might tell me??


----------



## Nick Harmon

2buckcanuck said:


> You try getting a job with these guys Mr one side of the trowel user, you will be down the road kicking stones:yes:
> 
> At about the 1:20 mark, pay attention to the guy doing the ceilings, tell me if a guy using one side of the trowel could keep up.
> 
> I started out using a straight knife and pan, but also had a hawk and trowel. I was teaching myself the H&T, and I was limited in it's use, since I too only used one side of it. Then I began working around guys who did plaster:thumbup:
> 
> First Master taper I worked with, was a great guy (ex Plasterer) He was like "Sure you can use a straight knife
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , what ever gets the job done",,,,,, After I coated a room out (and was so proud of my work and speed) I went out to see what he had done. I was in shock:blink:, he had 10 times more work done than me, and his work looked so sweet. I tossed my straight knife in the garbage, and went to the truck to get my hawk and trowel.
> 
> First thing he taught me was the back and forth motion, on the walls, then the ceiling. Just kept pushing the mud back and forth, and keeping it level......
> Diamond Veneer Plaster Systems -- One Coat Veneer Application (Part 3 of 3) - YouTube
> 
> Now I have passed down what I know to 2bjr, I bet he could get work with those guys in the first video:whistling2:
> 
> Hawk and trowel speed - YouTube


Well that's 8 min of my life I won't get back. It makes me tired just watching those guys labor away at plaster. What did they charge? If I was steel troweling a wall for ten hours I'd probably use both sides too. With Fresco Harmony you hit it and quit it. Totally different technique. You work the material on the wall once and you're done. Love the guy in the second vid. Very fast on that metal. When I finish rock (rarely) I revert back to the pan and knife. I'll say this and shut up. I could Fresco Harmony a whole house in half the time as plaster and it doesn't matter which trowel method I'm using. What matters is the medium I'm selling and the efficiency of application. The drywallers I've trained love using mud. Some have tried to use a pan and knife and I don't let them waste my time. I feel most drywall professionals would agree that they like the functionality of mud over plaster.


----------



## cazna

Square Foot said:


> Gordon Lightfoot...:thumbup:


Oh its the song on the radio in my clip, Thanks, Great song that, I didnt have a clue who it was, Thanks man, I want it on the ipod now.


----------



## moore

that song is a true story.:yes:


----------



## SlimPickins

I use one side also. I've been trying to work the other way/side into my work, but I just don't do it all that much. After all these years, one side of my trowel is so perfectly broken in, and the other is crap. 

I agree about the clean edge, but that's probably only because I just use one side :laughing:

When I'm using my burnishing trowel, I actually keep a towel on my waist to wipe the edge off so it stays clean while I do the loading with a larger trowel. But this way, when working materials that can't sit on the wall very long, I load a couple of hawks on really fast with the big trowel, and then fall back and make it look just right with the Pavan. I like the Pavan because it's thin, flexible, has a very short spine, rounded corners and bevels on the edges. That, and the bottom is like a mirror........you can do really interesting things simply by changing your trowel angle, and the glossier your trowel is, the better the effects.

My "signature" texture looks simple and clean from a moderate distance, but when you get up close to it there's a lot to look at if you're so inclined.


----------



## thefinisher

Still see no real advantage to a trowel vs. a knife in the drywall scene. Heck, I even went out and bought a trowel, but it just can't take the place of my knives. I respect those that work with a trowel, but I still believe a p/k is still better suited to the trade. Probly will get flamed for saying this lol....... where you at 2Buck?


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> Still see no real advantage to a trowel vs. a knife in the drywall scene. Heck, I even went out and bought a trowel, but it just can't take the place of my knives. I respect those that work with a trowel, but I still believe a p/k is still better suited to the trade. Probly will get flamed for saying this lol....... where you at 2Buck?


 drywall scene? LOL....What drywall scene? how's your knees /back/shoulders/ankles holding out ''THE FINISHER''?
The only drywall scene you know is a printer and email!


----------



## SlimPickins

moore said:


> drywall scene? LOL....What drywall scene? how's your knees /back/shoulders/ankles holding out ''THE FINISHER''?
> The only drywall scene you know is a printer and email!


Geez moore, you must be out of touch. All us real drywallers are down at the discotheque, snorting cocaine, wearing roller skates and skinny jeans, sporting big fluffy mustaches and asking our iphones intellectual questions. :mellow:


----------



## Mudshark

cazna said:


> Oh its the song on the radio in my clip, Thanks, Great song that, I didnt have a clue who it was, Thanks man, I want it on the ipod now.
> 
> 
> Gordon Lightfoot - The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald - YouTube


Yeah he was a great folksinger in his day - alcohol did him in for a number of years afterwards. Think he pulled out of it at the end. 

Oh and he was a CANADIAN (Eh)


----------



## cazna

Well i will be buggered (Hope not) 

I just listened to the words a bit closer, Didnt realise it was a shipwreck story?? And the bell tolled 29 times for the men of the edmund fitzgerald?? Well there is 29 men still down a mine here that blew up 2 years ago, And heres a pic of a boat for you mudshark, It was my fathers, 20 years ago 3 young men pushed there luck, A big storm was on the way and they sheltered in a bad spot, Got taken out by the sea. Dont mean to be downer, Sh!t just happens sometimes and if your lucky its not you.


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> drywall scene? LOL....What drywall scene? how's your knees /back/shoulders/ankles holding out ''THE FINISHER''?
> The only drywall scene you know is a printer and email!


Little do you know I get mud on me every single day :yes:. Whether it be a point-up, patch work, or a smaller job to finish I use my tools every day. And quite honestly I have had shoulder surgery which didn't help a lick and my back hurts every day. Hard for me to sit or stand in one spot too long or I will get sharp pains in my lower back. Either way, here is how life is going to work out for both of us.... You will be 50+ still finishing houses making the same $$$ and I will be 30 and own a business where I don't have to finish houses everyday ........... and make 3x the $$$ . Think about that next time you got something smart to say. And the fact of the matter is I'm half your age and can finish just as well as you do. Also our finishing crew of mexicans that we use can finish just as well as you too :yes: for half the price and get it done twice as fast.


----------



## chris

OUCH. Didnt your daddy teach you to respect your elders. Karma bro,get to know her


----------



## Square Foot

thefinisher said:


> Little do you know I get mud on me every single day :yes:. Whether it be a point-up, patch work, or a smaller job to finish I use my tools every day. And quite honestly I have had shoulder surgery which didn't help a lick and my back hurts every day. Hard for me to sit or stand in one spot too long or I will get sharp pains in my lower back. Either way, here is how life is going to work out for both of us.... You will be 50+ still finishing houses making the same $$$ and I will be 30 and own a business where I don't have to finish houses everyday ........... and make 3x the $$$ . Think about that next time you got something smart to say. And the fact of the matter is I'm half your age and can finish just as well as you do. Also our finishing crew of mexicans that we use can finish just as well as you too :yes: for half the price and get it done twice as fast.


While there might be some accuracy to what you say, you have to realize that some of us older guys have a hard time letting others do our work for us. It doesn't always come down to just turning a product for quick (typical business mindset ) profit. 

I've been pushing mud for 30 yrs and been in business for myself since 2003 and I can tell you, most of the people that I work for ( generals and home owners ) feel secure in knowing that the finish is being done by the person that they are writing the check to. 

When you step foot on job done by Moore, then..maybe you can form an opinion about his quality compared to yours.


----------



## thefinisher

chris said:


> OUCH. Didnt your daddy teach you to respect your elders. Karma bro,get to know her


Age is of no concern to me if your being a D!CK. Seems like every post I make he has to make some slanderous remark regarding our use of mexicans or my finishing abilities. I'm 23 and he is 40 something I believe. You don't see me making smart @ss comments about the way he conducts business...... So who is more of the adult here.


----------



## thefinisher

Square Foot said:


> While there might be some accuracy to what you say, you have to realize that some of us older guys have a hard time letting others do our work for us. It doesn't always come down to just turning a product for quick (typical business mindset ) profit.
> 
> I've been pushing mud for 30 yrs and been in business for myself since 2003 and I can tell you, most of the people that I work for ( generals and home owners ) feel secure in knowing that the finish is being done by the person that they are writing the check to.
> 
> When you step foot on job done by Moore, then..maybe you can form an opinion about his quality compared to yours.


Just because he has a hard time letting others do his work doesn't mean he can make the comments he does because I will tell him like it is regardless if he is older or a good finisher. And for the record it doesn't even matter if you do the work or somebody else does it if you take on the whole job including point-up (like us). Because in the end no matter if it was a great finish or a bad finish I will still meticulously put a light on everything and fix every little flaw. End result for us is always the same. I personally point up all of our jobs and each house comes out equal no matter who finishes it. However we do have a particular finish crew that is very good and it is nice to go behind their work because I really have to look hard to find any finishing flaws. I also don't need to step on his job to know what quality looks like.... Anybody that knows how to finish can judge good work. Also you can't really judge the work until after prime using a 500w halogen. You can't see chit on sand day as the dust hides most of the imperfections.


----------



## Mudshark

:boxing::boxing:

This could get interesting!

2 American guys from 2 very different states.

One state known for mansions and slave owners, the other state known for simple folk and hillbillies. (Not calling YOU simple Moore)
:whistling2:


----------



## mudslingr

thefinisher said:


> Little do you know I get mud on me every single day :yes:. Whether it be a point-up, patch work, or a smaller job to finish I use my tools every day. And quite honestly I have had shoulder surgery which didn't help a lick and my back hurts every day. Hard for me to sit or stand in one spot too long or I will get sharp pains in my lower back. Either way, here is how life is going to work out for both of us.... You will be 50+ still finishing houses making the same $$$ and I will be 30 and own a business where I don't have to finish houses everyday ........... and make 3x the $$$ . Think about that next time you got something smart to say. And the fact of the matter is I'm half your age and can finish just as well as you do. Also our finishing crew of mexicans that we use can finish just as well as you too :yes: for half the price and get it done twice as fast.


Making 3x of half of what moore makes now doesn't sound that great to me.:blink:


You just proved moore's point. You're using guys you pay with tacos(cheap tacos) while apparently you're eating sushi and caviar at their expense. Not only screwing them but also the rest of the tradesmen in your country. I don't have any problem with owning a business but I do have a problem with people who purposely pay ridiculous wages in order to line their own pockets while hurting the rest.

At least moore is charging what he is worth. YOU are cheating and stealing from every angle the way I see it.

Plenty of men out there with f*cked up backs and shoulders(knees,wrists,elbows,ankles,necks...). They grew a pair !


----------



## thefinisher

mudslingr said:


> Making 3x of half of what moore makes now doesn't sound that great to me.:blink:
> 
> 
> You just proved moore's point. You're using guys you pay with tacos(cheap tacos) while apparently you're eating sushi and caviar at their expense. Not only screwing them but also the rest of the tradesmen in your country. I don't have any problem with owning a business but I do have a problem with people who purposely pay ridiculous wages in order to line their own pockets while hurting the rest.
> 
> At least moore is charging what he is worth. YOU are cheating and stealing from every angle the way I see it.
> 
> Plenty of men out there with f*cked up backs and shoulders(knees,wrists,elbows,ankles,necks...). They grew a pair !


 
Moore is the one who directed the back/shoulder thing at me like I have never worked in my life. Maybe you should call every other contractor in the area and tell them they are cheating and stealing because we pay what our area dictates. You don't understand because your probalby part of a union. Sushi and caviar? hahah  I made deer cube steak last night from a deer I shot along with mashed potatoes and green beans..... was f'in delicious! We charge what we can or else we wouldn't have any jobs to do. We already charge more than most..... so no we aren't the low ballers. And we are paying our guys more now than a month ago because it looks like business is picking up. We always pay more the more busy we get. Just pointing out again that I didn't start this, but I will damn sure voice my opinion about his careless remarks once again. If you want to be one of his nutswingers than go ahead.


----------



## thefinisher

Mudshark said:


> :boxing::boxing:
> 
> This could get interesting!
> 
> 2 American guys from 2 very different states.
> 
> One state known for mansions and slave owners, the other state known for simple folk and hillbillies. (Not calling YOU simple Moore)
> :whistling2:


 
Well technically virginia was known just as much for slavery as south carolina. Oh and mexicans come here to work on their own accord and can leave whenever they want, we don't own them.


----------



## Nick Harmon

*I thought this thread was about trowel technique?*

Let's all get honest right now. No one in the drywall industry makes money. The cost of material continues to go up while sq ft prices continue to get squeezed. The margin for profit is on the decline. These companies continue to create fancy new tapes and tools but they aren't making the drywall companies any more money. I have begun implementing an idea here in Albuquerque using Fresco Harmony to leverage the finishing industry and get the drywall company twice as much money as they are currently making. It doesn't matter what state you're from. Members of the drywall industry have to work together to promote a new way of doing things. I tried targeting drywall companies with the idea and they were hesitant, but when I started telling builders that they could get their whole house finished with Fresco Harmony for the cost of texture (or smooth finish) and paint, their ears perked up. There are two separate companies here in Albuquerque whom we are partnering with to make this happen. Both builders I've approached have agreed to my 2.50 per sq ft price point bid to hang finish and Fresco Harmony the entire house. I'll train the company on the first job, then turn them loose. There are more details but that's the gist. This concept will work in any state. The only requirement is open-mindedness. You all have the talent! Change needs to happen now.


----------



## Tim0282

Going to look up Fresco Harmony. Do you have a website with more information? Found it.
http://www.frescoharmony.com/




Nick Harmon said:


> Let's all get honest right now. No one in the drywall industry makes money. The cost of material continues to go up while sq ft prices continue to get squeezed. The margin for profit is on the decline. These companies continue to create fancy new tapes and tools but they aren't making the drywall companies any more money. I have begun implementing an idea here in Albuquerque using Fresco Harmony to leverage the finishing industry and get the drywall company twice as much money as they are currently making. It doesn't matter what state you're from. Members of the drywall industry have to work together to promote a new way of doing things. I tried targeting drywall companies with the idea and they were hesitant, but when I started telling builders that they could get their whole house finished with Fresco Harmony for the cost of texture (or smooth finish) and paint, their ears perked up. There are two separate companies here in Albuquerque whom we are partnering with to make this happen. Both builders I've approached have agreed to my 2.50 per sq ft price point bid to hang finish and Fresco Harmony the entire house. I'll train the company on the first job, then turn them loose. There are more details but that's the gist. This concept will work in any state. The only requirement is open-mindedness. You all have the talent! Change needs to happen now.


----------



## Tim0282

Looks very interesting.
Back to the original question... 
I use both sides and both ends of a trowel. (when needed)


----------



## Mountain Man

thefinisher said:


> Little do you know I get mud on me every single day :yes:. Whether it be a point-up, patch work, or a smaller job to finish I use my tools every day. And quite honestly I have had shoulder surgery which didn't help a lick and my back hurts every day. Hard for me to sit or stand in one spot too long or I will get sharp pains in my lower back. Either way, here is how life is going to work out for both of us.... You will be 50+ still finishing houses making the same $$$ and I will be 30 and own a business where I don't have to finish houses everyday ........... and make 3x the $$$ . Think about that next time you got something smart to say. And the fact of the matter is I'm half your age and can finish just as well as you do. Also our finishing crew of mexicans that we use can finish just as well as you too :yes: for half the price and get it done twice as fast.


You can take your Mexicans and shove them right where the sun don't shine!!! That attitude is bull$h1t and it'll work for awhile but builders and homeowners get sick of mexican crews that come in and blow out work before anybody had a chance to put their two cents in. People want somebody they can talk over the job with, BS with and even relate to!! Only the low ballers and contractors that only care about getting it done for the cheapest price want Mexicans!! I'm glad they work for you but that just shows who you are!! Quit sending money to Mexico we got plenty of people over here that are suffering because of it!!! I hate what the Mexicans and the contractors who use them have done to the trade!!!


----------



## Perkcon

I use both sides of the trowel. Problem is I am just not good with a trowel yet. Might have to come and hang out with some of you plaster guys. Or come and see Mr. 2buck on our annual fishing trip in Canada. 

Nick - Your product looks very interesting, I will contact you on a up coming project soon. Keep up the good work.


----------



## SlimPickins

Since I've already weighed in on the trowel post, I'll address the moore/finisher feud. 

Cut it out, both of you. Fer Chrissake, enough already!

Moore, you don't like him for a host of reasons.........it's okay to hate him secretly.

Thefinisher....you'd do well to lay off bragging on a regular basis. 

We're all drywall guys here, and we all work for a living. Isn't it enough to come on here and talk shop and crack jokes and make fun of each other in a _playful _way?

All this bullsh!t arguing about bullsh!t topics. Sh!t, if you're going to argue, at least argue about something important..... like paper vs. mesh:mellow:


----------



## Newagestucco

you have to use both sides 

only using one side would limit you


----------



## thefinisher

Mountain Man said:


> You can take your Mexicans and shove them right where the sun don't shine!!! That attitude is bull$h1t and it'll work for awhile but builders and homeowners get sick of mexican crews that come in and blow out work before anybody had a chance to put their two cents in. People want somebody they can talk over the job with, BS with and even relate to!! Only the low ballers and contractors that only care about getting it done for the cheapest price want Mexicans!! I'm glad they work for you but that just shows who you are!! Quit sending money to Mexico we got plenty of people over here that are suffering because of it!!! I hate what the Mexicans and the contractors who use them have done to the trade!!!


If we could find white/blacks that were worth a dang then we would use them..... truth is they don't exist anymore around here it seems. My dad was one of the last remaining white finishers along with our crew that was good. And to be quite honest we have a finish crew that would be very hard to beat quality wise. They don't come in and run in and run out... they take their time but are very efficient and produce high quality work. It is racist to think just because your white/black that you are above the mexicans and that means you are automatically better at the trade. The truth is the finish crew we use genuinely cares about the quality of their work and they always do the small things right which makes the difference.


----------



## thefinisher

SlimPickins said:


> Since I've already weighed in on the trowel post, I'll address the moore/finisher feud.
> 
> Cut it out, both of you. Fer Chrissake, enough already!
> 
> Moore, you don't like him for a host of reasons.........it's okay to hate him secretly.
> 
> Thefinisher....you'd do well to lay off bragging on a regular basis.
> 
> We're all drywall guys here, and we all work for a living. Isn't it enough to come on here and talk shop and crack jokes and make fun of each other in a _playful _way?
> 
> All this bullsh!t arguing about bullsh!t topics. Sh!t, if you're going to argue, at least argue about something important..... like paper vs. mesh:mellow:


To be honest I don't even post here on a regular basis anymore, and it isn't bragging. I'm just putting him in his place. If he continues to make slanderous remarks I will keep reminding him he is no better than me or anybody else. I have yet to start any of this non sense. Maybe he had too many silver bullets before posting. The fact is I have never purposely remarked on any of his posts in a negative manner without being provoked first. I will continue to defend myself and our way of business no matter what. If he doesn't like us using mexicans then he needs to keep it to his self. I don't make any remarks regarding his way of business even though I could. There is no feud... there is only him stepping out of line and me telling him like it is. Seems like there are a few leg humpers on the forum that automatically side with him because he has been on here longer and he is "older" I guess. My age is already a problem with some of you for some reason as it is obvious with Moore's posts at times. It almost seems like jealousy for some reason. If it isn't jealousy then it is just pure disrespectful nature.


----------



## SlimPickins

thefinisher said:


> To be honest I don't even post here on a regular basis anymore, and it isn't bragging. I'm just putting him in his place. If he continues to make slanderous remarks I will keep reminding him he is no better than me or anybody else. I have yet to start any of this non sense. Maybe he had too many silver bullets before posting. The fact is I have never purposely remarked on any of his posts in a negative manner without being provoked first. I will continue to defend myself and our way of business no matter what. If he doesn't like us using mexicans then he needs to keep it to his self. I don't make any remarks regarding his way of business even though I could. There is no feud... there is only him stepping out of line and me telling him like it is. Seems like there are a few leg humpers on the forum that automatically side with him because he has been on here longer and he is "older" I guess. My age is already a problem with some of you for some reason as it is obvious with Moore's posts at times. It almost seems like jealousy for some reason. If it isn't jealousy then it is just pure disrespectful nature.


This is just more or the same, know what I mean?

Honestly, I can see where you're coming from. I see the way he "talks" to you and it's not really my cup of tea. I'm just tired of looking at it.....and even if I wanted to not read it, that's pretty difficult seeing as it's scattered all across the forum. He doesn't respect you. Big deal. I'm sure there are a lot of people on here who think that I'm full of sh!t........but I see no need to defend myself or rationalize my positions.

We work in the trade, we come here to talk about it and blow off steam. There are plenty of other things to talk about.


----------



## moore

Good Lord !!! I should have stayed home today like the rest of you slackers! I missed out on this one.

Finisher...I respect your knowledge of the drywall trade. I have read every post of yours ,,and you do know your chit !! You seem to know more about this trade than some guys twice your age not that age really matters,,but..I can tell you grew up with a hawk up your a$$ [like me]


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> To be honest I don't even post here on a regular basis anymore, and it isn't bragging. I'm just putting him in his place. If he continues to make slanderous remarks I will keep reminding him he is no better than me or anybody else. I have yet to start any of this non sense. Maybe he had too many silver bullets before posting. The fact is I have never purposely remarked on any of his posts in a negative manner without being provoked first. I will continue to defend myself and our way of business no matter what. If he doesn't like us using mexicans then he needs to keep it to his self. I don't make any remarks regarding his way of business even though I could. There is no feud... there is only him stepping out of line and me telling him like it is. Seems like there are a few leg humpers on the forum that automatically side with him because he has been on here longer and he is "older" I guess. My age is already a problem with some of you for some reason as it is obvious with Moore's posts at times. It almost seems like jealousy for some reason. If it isn't jealousy then it is just pure disrespectful nature.


JEALOUSY!!!!! I make $10 a board more than you! 
Your the one being disrepectful by driving the labor price down to nothing. what er!!!!!:furious::furious::furious::furious:


----------



## moore

SlimPickins said:


> This is just more or the same, know what I mean?
> 
> Honestly, I can see where you're coming from. I see the way he "talks" to you and it's not really my cup of tea. I'm just tired of looking at it.....and even if I wanted to not read it, that's pretty difficult seeing as it's scattered all across the forum. He doesn't respect you. Big deal. I'm sure there are a lot of people on here who think that I'm full of sh!t........but I see no need to defend myself or rationalize my positions.
> 
> We work in the trade, we come here to talk about it and blow off steam. There are plenty of other things to talk about.


 are you bidding against these guys?


----------



## moore

Square Foot said:


> While there might be some accuracy to what you say, you have to realize that some of us older guys have a hard time letting others do our work for us. It doesn't always come down to just turning a product for quick (typical business mindset ) profit.
> 
> I've been pushing mud for 30 yrs and been in business for myself since 2003 and I can tell you, most of the people that I work for ( generals and home owners ) feel secure in knowing that the finish is being done by the person that they are writing the check to.
> 
> When you step foot on job done by Moore, then..maybe you can form an opinion about his quality compared to yours.


 Sir.. Don't insult me! Theres no comparison!!!:blink:


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> JEALOUSY!!!!! I make $10 a board more than you!
> Your the one being disrepectful by driving the labor price down to nothing. what er!!!!!:furious::furious::furious::furious:


We have actually raised our labor pricing :thumbsup:. And I *highly* doubt you "make" $10 more a board than us. Even if you did make that much more per board, we do over 10x the amount of jobs..... much, much, larger jobs. Unfortunately our market is very different than yours and is dictated by prices that have been set a long time ago. There is a huge drywall outfit in our area that we used to finish for when I was growing up and they paid $3.50 a board well over a decade ago. That same company now pays $4.50 a board and we pay $5........ This company basically dictates the going rate no matter what. All the builders know their prices and will drop contractors if prices get too high.


----------



## thefinisher

Either way Moore, lets try not to resort to personal attacks. You are in an entirely different state and we have never bid a job outside of our state so you are perfectly safe.


----------



## SlimPickins

moore said:


> are you bidding against these guys?


No, I'm not, and I haven't chosen sides in this "argument" either. You both have reasons, and while it's not desirable it is understandable, I suppose. 

The way I see it, I can learn from both of you...........except when you act childish. Actually, I guess I can even learn from you then as well.....how _not _to behave:jester:


----------



## thefinisher

SlimPickins said:


> No, I'm not, and I haven't chosen sides in this "argument" either. You both have reasons, and while it's not desirable it is understandable, I suppose.
> 
> The way I see it, I can learn from both of you...........except when you act childish. Actually, I guess I can even learn from you then as well.....how _not _to behave:jester:


Lol Slim your alright :thumbsup:. Oh and when I use my trowel I use both sides....... So lets hear more about this fresco harmony :yes:


----------



## gordie

But which one of you can level 5 the best sandwich sounds like a good contest of skills hahah

with a trowel that would be kool:thumbup:


----------



## thefinisher

gordie said:


> But which one of you can level 5 the best sandwich sounds like a good contest of skills hahah
> 
> with a trowel that would be kool:thumbup:


I would rather eat the sandwich :jester:


----------



## moore

SlimPickins said:


> No, I'm not, and I haven't chosen sides in this "argument" either. You both have reasons, and while it's not desirable it is understandable, I suppose.
> 
> The way I see it, I can learn from both of you...........except when you act childish. Actually, I guess I can even learn from you then as well.....how _not _to behave:jester:


 Your right Slim.:yes:


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> We have actually raised our labor pricing :thumbsup:. And I *highly* doubt you "make" $10 more a board than us. Even if you did make that much more per board, we do over 10x the amount of jobs..... much, much, larger jobs. Unfortunately our market is very different than yours and is dictated by prices that have been set a long time ago. There is a huge drywall outfit in our area that we used to finish for when I was growing up and they paid $3.50 a board well over a decade ago. That same company now pays $4.50 a board and we pay $5........ This company basically dictates the going rate no matter what. All the builders know their prices and will drop contractors if prices get too high.


 $10 more [email protected].
Why did you give your men a raise? If they were happy with what they had you should have put that $1 in your pocket. 

And what are you doing at home at 10:00? Don't you ever work?:jester:


----------



## moore

thefinisher said:


> Either way Moore, lets try not to resort to personal attacks. You are in an entirely different state and we have never bid a job outside of our state so you are perfectly safe.


 LOL!! Finisher...You and your crew live right down the road from me. :yes:


----------



## DrywallerDustin

So... I usually use the flat side....


----------



## Arey85

Now would probably be the best time for me to chime in about how much I severely dislike the Mexican labor quality .......right?


----------



## JustMe

Nick Harmon said:


> Let's all get honest right now. No one in the drywall industry makes money. The cost of material continues to go up while sq ft prices continue to get squeezed. The margin for profit is on the decline. These companies continue to create fancy new tapes and tools but they aren't making the drywall companies any more money. I have begun implementing an idea here in Albuquerque using Fresco Harmony to leverage the finishing industry and get the drywall company twice as much money as they are currently making.


Good for you Nick, in trying to expand the industry as you are now doing.

You're well stating my own thoughts I've had - new efficiency products like better tools and drywall materials can drive sq. ft. labour prices down, when the work type and amount remains the same, and the # of people ready to do the work remains the same. End result - little to no real extra money can be made. Maybe even less, especially when economies downturn.

Earlier accepters, implementers of such new tools and materials can do better - for a time. Then those tools, materials become part of 'baseline competitiveness', like what happened in some areas when it came to automatic taping tools - especially when their patents came off, so others could manufacture and sell copies of them at affordable enough prices.

Btw: I'm not saying one shouldn't adopt effective new tools, materials, if only from the standpoint of economic survival.


----------



## SlimPickins

thefinisher said:


> Lol Slim your alright :thumbsup:. Oh and when I use my trowel I use both sides....... So lets hear more about this fresco harmony :yes:


Speaking of Fresco Harmony.......I don't even have my sample pack yet and I'm working on a builder who's anxious to hear more about it and wants to see the samples when I get them ready. He's breaking ground in April.......and he's got the perfect client for this sort of thing. Hell, who am I kidding........all of my builders have the perfect client for this sort of thing:yes::thumbsup:


----------



## Nick Harmon

thefinisher said:


> Lol Slim your alright :thumbsup:. Oh and when I use my trowel I use both sides....... So lets hear more about this fresco harmony :yes:


That's Moore like it. You'll all make $32.00 More a board when you start using Fresco Harmony. Unless you use one side of your trowel. Then you'll only make $28.00 More a board.


----------



## Nick Harmon

JustMe said:


> Good for you Nick, in trying to expand the industry as you are now doing.
> 
> You're well stating my own thoughts I've had - new efficiency products like better tools and drywall materials can drive sq. ft. labour prices down, when the work type and amount remains the same, and the # of people ready to do the work remains the same. End result - little to no real extra money can be made. Maybe even less, especially when economies downturn.
> 
> Earlier accepters, implementers of such new tools and materials can do better - for a time. Then those tools, materials become part of 'baseline competitiveness', like what happened in some areas when it came to automatic taping tools - especially when their patents came off, so others could manufacture and sell copies of them at affordable enough prices.
> 
> Btw: I'm not saying one shouldn't adopt effective new tools, materials, if only from the standpoint of economic survival.


Thank you for listening.


----------



## Nick Harmon

SlimPickins said:


> Speaking of Fresco Harmony.......I don't even have my sample pack yet and I'm working on a builder who's anxious to hear more about it and wants to see the samples when I get them ready. He's breaking ground in April.......and he's got the perfect client for this sort of thing. Hell, who am I kidding........all of my builders have the perfect client for this sort of thing:yes::thumbsup:


I sent it off. Should get there soon. Also, I'm happy to talk with builders too if they should have any questions. When you get the product you should watch the training video and do up a 24" x 24" sample board. Nothing sells FH like a nice big sample. :-$


----------



## thefinisher

moore said:


> $10 more [email protected]
> Why did you give your men a raise? If they were happy with what they had you should have put that $1 in your pocket.
> 
> And what are you doing at home at 10:00? Don't you ever work?:jester:


We are paying them more because we are doing more. We try to pay more than anybody else so they always get on our jobs without hesitation because they know they get more and will get paid that week guaranteed. Never have we not paid our help. Have had our guys for a decade now and we want to keep them for as long as possible. Oh and my dad and I ride together generally and I got mobile wifi from verizon so I can use my laptop on the move.... actually using it right now . I'm about to go point up a house and then we got a big patch to do .


----------



## SlimPickins

thefinisher said:


> We are paying them more because we are doing more. We try to pay more than anybody else so they always get on our jobs without hesitation because they know they get more and will get paid that week guaranteed. Never have we not paid our help. Have had our guys for a decade now and we want to keep them for as long as possible. Oh and my dad and I ride together generally and I got mobile wifi from verizon so I can use my laptop on the move.... actually using it right now . I'm about to go point up a house and then we got a big patch to do .


Yaaaaaay patchwork!

"Builder" says: Hey, can you swing by and do these little patches, shouldn't take more than an hour of your time.

Three hours later the first trip is done:laughing:


----------



## gazman

SlimPickins said:


> Yaaaaaay patchwork!
> 
> "Builder" says: Hey, can you swing by and do these little patches, shouldn't take more than an hour of your time.
> 
> Three hours later the first trip is done:laughing:


Do and sue Slim :yes:.


----------



## SlimPickins

gazman said:


> Do and sue Slim :yes:.


:thumbsup:

He's not a builder I'm all that interested in hanging on to anyway. I think he's using me because I'm "in the network"....either that or he doesn't know anyone else.:laughing: Nice enough guy I guess, but he just went out on his own after working for another contractor I've known for a while. He's got a little way to go before he's a truly experienced contractor. I'm "in" with these younger builder hipsters who are trying to be on the cutting edge of energy efficiency and challenging traditional building techniques. Why am I telling you this? No idea, I think I might be tired or something. I might as well just type out "blah blah blah":lol:


----------

