# guess the cause.



## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Lets see how long it takes for someone to correctly guess the cause of these cracked butt joint. This is only one of about 12. Not all are this defined. And about 6 aren't even cracked yet just raised up getting ready to pop.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

:blink: Someone forgot to put tapes on?


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Guess I should have given a few details. Yes they are taped with paper tape.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

Well OK it rules out the obvious one. 

Was the drywall securely fastened? :whistling2:


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Yes screws are about 1'' apart down both sides.
Some butts are on ICF walls others are on steel stud walls.
This is the job i posted the video on 2bucks video tours thread.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Damp framing, Somethings moved. Building work on the wall behind it, Vibration. You didnt V out the join and prefill it enough before taping.


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

You didnt use a rebate mate.:whistling2:


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Was the rock damp when installed? It looks like the joint is compressing.


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## DETROIT ROCK (May 27, 2011)

Condensation cold walls on warmer humid day.


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## wnybassman (May 9, 2008)

Uninsulated garage with no "real" heat. Real cold out with high moisture temporary heat.


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

It is a moisture/propane heat issue.


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

Yep, definitely moisture problem, excess humidity swells, excessively dry shrinks and cracks, hope you didn't supply the heater.


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Kiwiman said:


> Yep, definitely moisture problem, excess humidity swells, excessively dry shrinks and cracks, hope you didn't supply the heater.


No the contractor supplied the heaters. It worked out where we would have had forced air heat the day after this part of job was done. They didn't want to fire up the other units until we were done in those sections also. I warned of the risk of cracking and the contractor had already informed hvac guys yesterday that they were to fire up all units. But as we can see too late. I'm curious how many more are going to crack before I go back in there monday. Heat is on now in this section and 3 dehumidifiers are running.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

cdwoodcox said:


> It is a moisture/propane heat issue.


crazy I have not had that much of a propain issue

thanks though I am going to run around with the salamander







and heat the walls with out burning em


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

cdwoodcox said:


> It is a moisture/propane heat issue.


think you woulda been good to go with Hotmud 60 Hot and 40 gluemud?


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

cdwoodcox said:


> It is a moisture/propane heat issue.


So am I to understand then CD that the units were heated by propane between coats? We know they cause moisture issues, but did you put the next coat on too early maybe, like the next day? Its nice when we get rooms to dry overnite but sometimes we don't and "rushing" the job can cause problems. Just sayin.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Mudshark said:


> So am I to understand then CD that the units were heated by propane between coats? We know they cause moisture issues, but did you put the next coat on too early maybe, like the next day? Its nice when we get rooms to dry overnite but sometimes we don't and "rushing" the job can cause problems. Just sayin.


good call, 

yeah after taping I don't shoot a coat on the same day or even the next morning... do screws and ceiling, closets, later I run box and beads, also hand tapers make those mistakes as the mud is not even and there is not much for prefill, pulla







down the walls and that hardly ever happens except for moisture

was my thoughts from the beginning also not dry under, I try to tell dwc the longer we wait for first coat the better, throw in cement floors I don't run first coat till the end of the next day

we live in the northern parts and weather makes an attentive taper


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Mudshark said:


> So am I to understand then CD that the units were heated by propane between coats? We know they cause moisture issues, but did you put the next coat on too early maybe, like the next day? Its nice when we get rooms to dry overnite but sometimes we don't and "rushing" the job can cause problems. Just sayin.


Oh yeah I coated the next day. Mud was dry. Can't say it was fully cured.
When they tell you go ahead and do it that's what I do. I cannot pay my guys to piss around waiting. 
I think moisture plus the heaters cooking the place too hot too fast did it. Anyway I'm just glad we have controlled atmosphere and that it happened prior to paint.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

cdwoodcox said:


> Oh yeah I coated the next day. Mud was dry. Can't say it was fully cured.
> When they tell you go ahead and do it that's what I do. I cannot pay my guys to piss around waiting.
> I think moisture plus the heaters cooking the place too hot too fast did it. Anyway I'm just glad we have controlled atmosphere and that it happened prior to paint.


Couple jobs ago the dwc pushed me through wet too cold suites, told him day after day to fast, just talked to him today and he is not pleased with me and the moral of the story is that's a fuk'n goof


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

I am Lucky I guess these guys knew as did I that we was taking a Chance. Didn't work out and they're willing to pay me hourly to fix what is wrong. Surprising mesh and quickset on all flats haven't crack just paper on butts.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

cdwoodcox said:


> I am Lucky I guess these guys knew as did I that we was taking a Chance. Didn't work out and they're willing to pay me hourly to fix what is wrong. Surprising mesh and quickset on all flats haven't crack just paper on butts.


Well thats good to hear that they take some responsibility. :thumbsup:

What were you using for mud to embed the paper tapes? :confused1:


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

cdwoodcox said:


> I am Lucky I guess these guys knew as did I that we was taking a Chance. Didn't work out and they're willing to pay me hourly to fix what is wrong. Surprising mesh and quickset on all flats haven't crack just paper on butts.


that's not a Fuk,n goof


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

All butts were V'D out and prefilled twice. Taped with usg all purpose mud.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

cdwoodcox said:


> Surprising mesh and quickset on all flats haven't crack just paper on butts.


 


Easy now CD, some may see that as mesh being better than paper.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

cdwoodcox said:


> All butts were V'D out and prefilled twice. Taped with usg all purpose mud.



I don't run without glue, AP, that explains so much 

can get away with slight moisture under tapes with glue mud but some shrankkkkage is expected

2Buck Quoted

I don't get why certain DWT members are questioning what methods you incorporated to tape your job out. The conditions you are working in, would be like working in a swimming pool. The only reason the mesh tape is holding out a bit better, is b/c it's water proof, while paper tape is not. There's no taping error at all....... Unless you talk about Cazna mixing hotmud and ap mud together, as BJ said



Please read carefully (I don't)


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

cdwoodcox said:


> All butts were V'D out and prefilled twice. Taped with usg all purpose mud.


Although I prefer taping mud to all purpose to put tapes on, I dont see your system as being the problem here. :thumbsup:

If the tapes weren't sticking that would be another issue.


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Mudshark said:


> Easy now CD, some may see that as mesh being better than paper.


The minute I posted that I wished I hadn't. Now that we have forced air heat and dehumidifiers running my biggest concern is that it's all going to crack over the next night or two.


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> I don't run without glue, AP, that explains so much
> 
> can get away with slight moisture under tapes with glue mud but some shrankkkkage is expected


We don't have a true taping mud locally. Our all purpose is what tape is put on with. Maybe I will post a video of me trying to remove tape it sticks plenty good does shrink quite a bite


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

cdwoodcox said:


> The minute I posted that I wished I hadn't. Now that we have forced air heat and dehumidifiers running my biggest concern is that it's all going to crack over the next night or two.


Ya know CD Butts are the first to show, cold they rise, wet coats they float, new apprentice taper they show, sh#tty painter and is knowlege of 1% , add water to primer they show, Fuk'd up partner went to the disco and got blasted by the dance floor lights and when we sanded with normal lights he could not see em, you geussed it the Butts showed again


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

What kind of rock was used CD? The reason I ask Is I now have to pre-fill all my butts before tape due to loose paper on factory butts . If I don't they will tend to peak after the skim. no matter what kind of heat used.

Your right on about the propane,,,I tell g/cs propane Is no more than a water hose..I run diesel In my space blowers which is also a wet heat but not as bad as propane..I run dehumidifer day,and,night .

US!! Not having the proper heat on the job IS WRONG.
G/C called me yesterday about a speck I finished out 2 weeks ago [nicks from the [email protected] guys] I finished this speck out with no power there for no heat..space blowers was MY only source of heat.. 20 degrees at night for the week I was there.
I walk in today:furious::furious::furious::furious: Heat pump was cranked up to 72...The painters were wearing t-shirts ..UNREAL..


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

cdwoodcox said:


> We don't have a true taping mud locally. Our all purpose is what tape is put on with. Maybe I will post a video of me trying to remove tape it sticks plenty good does shrink quite a bite



poor guy, put you on the help Taper list for someone to mail you a gift on some glue mud and maybe you could endorse their product


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

You could talk with the dwc and ask him to buy the biggest can of white glue and add it to AP, would help you through the days of a fast pace, but definite Hotmud mix would be great

DO NOT ask cazna how to mix Hotmud to AP (please view Laughing smiley Post)


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

My mud isn't the problem.


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> You could talk with the dwc and ask him to buy the biggest can of white glue and add it to AP, would help you through the days of a fast pace, but definite Hotmud mix would be great
> 
> DO NOT ask cazna how to mix Hotmud to AP (please view Laughing smiley Post)


I am the drywall company. And I won't be buying any glue.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

cdwoodcox said:


> Lets see how long it takes for someone to correctly guess the cause of these cracked butt joint. This is only one of about 12. Not all are this defined. And about 6 aren't even cracked yet just raised up getting ready to pop.


You posted at 1:18. I didn't get to play









I don't get why certain DWT members are questioning what methods you incorporated to tape your job out. The conditions you are working in, would be like working in a swimming pool







. The only reason the mesh tape is holding out a bit better, is b/c it's water proof, while paper tape is not. There's no taping error at all....... Unless you talk about Cazna mixing hotmud and ap mud together, as BJ said:whistling2:


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> You posted at 1:18. I didn't get to play
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yeah I left early too depressed to stick around their anymore today. Not doing much else their until the place dries out over the weekend.
I made the comment about surprised mesh hasn't cracked because with these type of heaters where it has to really cook certain areas to get moderate heat to other areas has a high probability of cracking mesh tape joints by getting them too hot. Wasn't really trying to say they are stronger.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

I've had jobs go to chit beyond my control CD . I'm feelin ya .. :yes:


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## Jason (Feb 27, 2011)

The butts are on a stud. That's why they cracked so easily with temp/humidity change. They'll almost certainly go again. Butt between framing and use hotmud backblocks. This will accomodate tons of framing movement.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

gazman said:


> You didnt use a rebate mate.:whistling2:


Thats what gazman said.


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## team pacific (Jan 14, 2012)

condensation and moisture problem.Its called beading.basic science.hot air is meeting the cold air at that point.The air in that stud space behind the butt joint is not warming up to room temperature.


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

moore said:


> What kind of rock was used CD? The reason I ask Is I now have to pre-fill all my butts before tape due to loose paper on factory butts . If I don't they will tend to peak after the skim. no matter what kind of heat used.
> 
> Your right on about the propane,,,I tell g/cs propane Is no more than a water hose..I run diesel In my space blowers which is also a wet heat but not as bad as propane..I run dehumidifer day,and,night .
> 
> ...


Just usg type 5/8 drywall.


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Jason said:


> The butts are on a stud. That's why they cracked so easily with temp/humidity change. They'll almost certainly go again. Butt between framing and use hotmud backblocks. This will accomodate tons of framing movement.


They won't almost certainly go again. Now that heat is forced air and I have dehumids I can fix with confidence. And steel studs aren't supposed to move like wood. 
Framing drying out isn't the problem.


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

team pacific said:


> condensation and moisture problem.Its called beading.basic science.hot air is meeting the cold air at that point.The air in that stud space behind the butt joint is not warming up to room temperature.


I get the basic science thing but some are on interior walls. And all exterior walls are insulated concrete form walls.


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> Guess I should have given a few details. Yes they are taped with paper tape.


 too watered down paint will also cause. Didnt see location of seam in pic but you mentioned steel studs and ICF walls,sometimes acontrol joint is needed. We had a few reoccuring cracks in a long hall once that we kept blaming temperature....after about the 4th or 5th time retaping we added a control joint and that fixed it. Also what Moore said, the factory butts on sheetrock (especially USG) have been known to pull loose after getting wet. If you properly veed out the butt that shouldnt be the cause but I will say thats what it looks like


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

chris said:


> too watered down paint will also cause. Didnt see location of seam in pic but you mentioned steel studs and ICF walls,sometimes acontrol joint is needed. We had a few reoccuring cracks in a long hall once that we kept blaming temperature....after about the 4th or 5th time retaping we added a control joint and that fixed it. Also what Moore said, the factory butts on sheetrock (especially USG) have been known to pull loose after getting wet. If you properly veed out the butt that shouldnt be the cause but I will say thats what it looks like


I will post a few more pics after work tonite just 1 nite with actual heat and dehumidifiers running all the cracks were still their just sunken back instead of protruding outward. 

So not a control joint issue or not my method.


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## DETROIT ROCK (May 27, 2011)

I insulated and drywalled my garage 15 years ago. I had to do many repairs to the
ceiling when i remolded it . I was thinking why? One day i went out to the garage 
it was 60 out warm. The garage was ice cold It looked like a cold beer can on
a hot day. Droplets on the ceiling. Now i heat it when it starts to warm up
in the spring.

Another water nightmare.
Big remod ranch large. I had it ready to sand. I come in early 6am the homeowner
has propane heat in the garage to thaw pallets of brick attic hole open.
The house had large ice dams and the heat was melting them.
All the outside walls were wet at top.

Homeowner comes in a proceeds to give me ****. Why did you turn the heat off !
As i was sanding my ass off. I showed him and told him he was ****ed.
And i need to get paid. I charged him 800 to redoo fix of the wall .

Then the brick guy comes latter Why you turn off a da HEAT!
As i was sanding my ass off. I say why i turn off da fucada HEAT dats why i Turn off da fucada HEAT!


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

We can guess which nationality those bricklayers were!


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## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

you shoulda used mesh & hot mud on the butts also>>>you wouldn't have this problem.:yes:


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Sorry but it would not have mattered. Seams are cracking also now just in the vicinity where the propane heater was blowing and probably. Cooked the hell out of it. All seams and butts are cracking on the ceiling in this area. Doesn't help they only blew 9'' of insulation in the attic so it is cold on the back side of drywall and warm on the face atleast it is 2 layers hopefully that will help.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

DETROIT ROCK said:


> I insulated and drywalled my garage 15 years ago. I had to do many repairs to the
> ceiling when i remolded it . I was thinking why? One day i went out to the garage
> it was 60 out warm. The garage was ice cold It looked like a cold beer can on
> a hot day. Droplets on the ceiling. Now i heat it when it starts to warm up
> ...


hey ahhhh motorcity-Madman do you drink American beer or do you do the Windsor scene


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

mmmm


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> Sorry but it would not have mattered. Seams are cracking also now just in the vicinity where the propane heater was blowing and probably. Cooked the hell out of it. All seams and butts are cracking on the ceiling in this area. Doesn't help they only blew 9'' of insulation in the attic so it is cold on the back side of drywall and warm on the face atleast it is 2 layers hopefully that will help.


 That sounds EXACTLY like the situation I was in. No insulation at first so once that was done I thought OK that will solve... NOPE next day and so on lil blistercracks . It sounds like you might have got it pegged tho, please dont take wrong way just trying to help


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

chris said:


> That sounds EXACTLY like the situation I was in. No insulation at first so once that was done I thought OK that will solve... NOPE next day and so on lil blistercracks . It sounds like you might have got it pegged tho, please dont take wrong way just trying to help


Appreciate the help Chris. I'm retaping tomorrow if you wish to help some more.:yes:


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## Jason (Feb 27, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> They won't almost certainly go again. Now that heat is forced air and I have dehumids I can fix with confidence. And steel studs aren't supposed to move like wood.
> Framing drying out isn't the problem.


No worries bro. Sounds like you've got it figured out.


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## DETROIT ROCK (May 27, 2011)

"hey ahhhh motorcity-Madman do you drink American beer or do you do the Windsor scene" 

I am not a drinker maybe a hand full a year. I prefer something like a GUINNESS
or YOUNG'S DOUBLE CHOCOLATE STOUT. I have three bottles of CANADIAN CLUB whiskey with seal date 1954. I had a JB scotch from the same time period.
But i drank it. I had really bad shoulder pain. I got drunk once last summer.


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## Checkers (Jun 25, 2010)

Hey woodcox, do you "V" your butts?


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

He does Checkers and covered that in post 23.


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## E.K Taper (Jun 15, 2011)

Way to go CDWOODCOX, mesh and hotmud rules the world:thumbsup:
Hope all you paperguys are readin and learning................:whistling2:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

E.K Taper said:


> Way to go CDWOODCOX, mesh and hotmud rules the world:thumbsup:
> Hope all you paperguys are readin and learning................:whistling2:


:blink::blink::blink:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Wood will expand and contract the same as steel . ???


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## Stopper (Nov 5, 2011)

The joins look worse lower down where its cooler could be just board that got too damp then heated too fast, I've seen Board do crazy things when its damp and then gets heated too quickly.

I don't see any screw pops down the join? if the board itself was drying out or taking on moisture you'd see something happening around the screws..I was going to suggest that they glued behind the butt joint itself and that the delayed drying of glue could be giving you problems but that would cause any screws to pop and you'd see them.

Buy a moisture meter and jab that in....see how dry the board is etc

Good luck with it, atleast you're able to fix it now before the paints goes on.


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## rebel20 (Jun 4, 2009)

cdwoodcox said:


> I g°et the basic science thing but some are on interior walls. And all exterior walls are insulated concrete form walls.


 
What I have read is steel studs, this means that they are twisting when heated with the propane. Propane heaters give off between 150 to 170° F. What was temp of rooms before heating perhaps 50° then this would be a temp diff of 90 or more. From what I see in the pic's the cracks are not straight which would conclude to twisting metal. Want to test it take a steel stud put it outside for a day then put it in front of the heaters and see what happens or use a torch. 
My suggestion get different heaters. and slowly heat rooms.
Rebel


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