# Diamond veneer



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

I got a chance the other day to winger it a bit on doing a project using Diamond. It was a bit of a test, to see about whether to use it in other places on a job.

It was a fairly large room, with smaller rooms built in it after large exterior walls were done 1st, and smaller walls were done after. 

The area done was dry and warm. They couldn't control those things any better for us, due to a few reasons. Eg. We were right above a large boiler room, and they couldn't close off window and door openings going into rest of building.

It cracked and rippled in a few places. Besides me and the guy I was backing up being novices when it came to plaster, any thoughts as to what could be the main cause(s)? Not enough water used? Too much water used? Temperature?


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

JustMe said:


> I got a chance the other day to winger it a bit on doing a project using Diamond. It was a bit of a test, to see about whether to use it in other places on a job.
> 
> It was a fairly large room, with smaller rooms built in it after large exterior walls were done 1st, and smaller walls were done after.
> 
> ...


Not a expert, but have done it before...............

temperature is everything, but, if I remember right, sometimes there could be bad spots on the rock it self. The plaster would just flake off.

Plus check the dates on the bags, the older the bag, more chance for error from it. Not good to mix a old bag with newer stuff.

If you want to slow the mix down, mix cream of tarter with it (the cooking stuff)

As for the ripples, that's you, that ones called human error:whistling2:

Were you using a paint brush or blister brush to wet it????


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

The temperature wasn't optimum, that seems for sure. Wonder if that was the biggest contributor to the checking in spots.
But if so, then why did it do it in some areas and not in others. Depended on the thickness of material put down as well?

There were a couple spots where it flaked off for no seeming apparent reason. Blaming it on the board didn't come to mind.

No error from me on the ripples. It happened in the larger field areas, where the other guy was troweling it on. I was doing more the detail work, around windows, doors, coating tear away fastmask.

I came in to help with the smaller walls - he already had the larger exterior walls done.
There was some ripples in the larger walls as well. But not the kind of ripples you're maybe thinking of? Ie. The kind left by a poorly controlled knife or trowel? The 'bouncies', as one guy I know likes to call them. These ripples were more like wavy, sagging type ripples. Like the surface sagged a bit, in wavy patterns.
Too much water used on the surface maybe, at the wrong time? 

For brushes, he had a couple new ones of these to work with: http://www.walltools.com/products/plaster/brushes/marshalltown-felt-brush.html


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

JustMe said:


> The temperature wasn't optimum, that seems for sure. Wonder if that was the biggest contributor to the checking in spots.
> But if so, then why did it do it in some areas and not in others. Depended on the thickness of material put down as well?
> 
> There were a couple spots where it flaked off for no seeming apparent reason. Blaming it on the board didn't come to mind.
> ...


Might be a dumb question but, did you do a double up???

Coat out a wall, say 8x10, then come back and coat over it again with same mix.

Yes, your link is the proper brush to use (blister). We also used a big paint brush too, that could hold lots of water, more for early stages


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

How thick was your mix? Or rather....how thin was your mix?

I'm not all that experienced with the product, but I've seen it do some weird stuff due to all the different substrates we had going on. One wall had spider-web cracks like a mo-fro.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> Might be a dumb question but, did you do a double up???
> 
> Coat out a wall, say 8x10, then come back and coat over it again with same mix.


Maybe not such a dumb question(?) I wondered about the double up thing as well, after I'd read I believe DSJohn mentioning it on another thread. I was busy doing followup detail work, so wasn't paying a lot of attention to what the other guy was doing, but I don't recall him coating twice.

His one coat seemed decent enough, but I got to wondering if his not having gone over it again with another coat left too many imperfections that he later used maybe too much water, and/or too much working them out after, which could've caused the water ripple like look in places(?)



SlimPickins said:


> How thick was your mix? Or rather....how thin was your mix?
> 
> I'm not all that experienced with the product, but I've seen it do some weird stuff due to all the different substrates we had going on. One wall had spider-web cracks like a mo-fro.


Mix was running closer to the thin edge than the thick edge - thick enough to stay on the knives, trowels well enough, but a little thinner and it would've started getting hard to handle.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> Maybe not such a dumb question(?) I wondered about the double up thing as well, after I'd read I believe DSJohn mentioning it on another thread. I was busy doing followup detail work, so wasn't paying a lot of attention to what the other guy was doing, but I don't recall him coating twice.
> 
> His one coat seemed decent enough, but I got to wondering if his not having gone over it again with another coat left too many imperfections that he later used maybe too much water, and/or too much working them out after, which could've caused the water ripple like look in places(?)
> 
> ...


That sounds just about right to me...diamond is tricky to mix, especially if it's tinted. I like the mix a tad thick, but that makes working it a little brutal.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

JustMe said:


> Maybe not such a dumb question(?) I wondered about the double up thing as well, after I'd read I believe DSJohn mentioning it on another thread. I was busy doing followup detail work, so wasn't paying a lot of attention to what the other guy was doing, but I don't recall him coating twice.
> 
> His one coat seemed decent enough, but I got to wondering if his not having gone over it again with another coat left too many imperfections that he later used maybe too much water, and/or too much working them out after, which could've caused the water ripple like look in places(?)
> 
> ...


Wheres Dsjohn when you need him

The double up is all important, say you had a 8 x 10 wall, you coat it out, then coat over top of it again with the same mix (important to be same mix, and 2nd coat not as thick as 1st). The theory is the 1st coat in contact with the veneer drywall begins to set up, well the second coat takes longer to set. So your working the second coat into the 1st coat as it sets.

Mix hard to explain, but it's more on the runny side. Operation of the H&T is different to that of mudding. You dip or dab your trowel into the mix, you don't flip your hawk over. That was a hard habit to break , every once and a while you would flip your hawk, and your mix would be all over the floor:blink:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> Wheres Dsjohn when you need him
> 
> The double up is all important, say you had a 8 x 10 wall, you coat it out, then coat over top of it again with the same mix (important to be same mix, and 2nd coat not as thick as 1st). The theory is the 1st coat in contact with the veneer drywall begins to set up, well the second coat takes longer to set. So your working the second coat into the 1st coat as it sets.
> 
> Mix hard to explain, but it's more on the runny side. Operation of the H&T is different to that of mudding. You dip or dab your trowel into the mix, you don't flip your hawk over. That was a hard habit to break , every once and a while you would flip your hawk, and your mix would be all over the floor:blink:


Looking back more into past threads, I think DSJohn already gave some good answers about things like doubling up in plaster threads you'd started in 2010. Maybe that is much of the answer to any issues we had (aside from the heat, dryness and air movement in places that we had to work with).

In the thread you started on plaster videos back then, it was commented on that some of those videos didn't really get across the doubling up approach. The guy I worked with said that he was shown a couple videos - ones with the guys with headbands and big arms it sounded like - to get an idea of how it was done. Maybe he was shown those videos that were lacking in instruction about doubling up, so didn't put enough emphasis, importance on it. I'm going to check further on that with him.

The mix we were using wasn't quite as thin as it sounds like what you might have been using for whatever plastering you were doing. But I'd say it was getting fairly close, and I think it was about right for Diamond. Something else I'm going to check on, though, just to make sure.


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

Sorry guys not checking in regularly -- DOUBLE BACK[with same mix] air movement is your enemy also--too hot not good either-- in door ways you need to hang plastic or paper to stop air passing thru--windows should be covered that let extreme sunlite thru onto your walls[dries them right out]-- you have to study the room before your mix and take these precautions[also cover your floors with paper/messy aint it] . Timing of the double back, blister brush work and finish trowel work are keys to a good job--as 2buck said[cream of tartar will give you an extra 15 to 20 min with your mix[couple table spoons per mix][added to water before plaster]If you trowel your mix too much it blisters , only trowel and run blister brush when it starts to firm up[ finger test/and color change] We go with 1 1/2 hrs per mix --applied,doubled,brushed, finished troweled, corners brushed in with 1" paint brush, and on to next mix. If I think of any thing I missed I write some more later----Last one I did ,job was fc$d up so I didnt video---some day I will--promise[and the owners check bounced!!!!] Good now tho


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

DSJOHN said:


> Sorry guys not checking in regularly -- DOUBLE BACK[with same mix] air movement is your enemy also--too hot not good either-- in door ways you need to hang plastic or paper to stop air passing thru--windows should be covered that let extreme sunlite thru onto your walls[dries them right out]-- you have to study the room before your mix and take these precautions[also cover your floors with paper/messy aint it] . Timing of the double back, blister brush work and finish trowel work are keys to a good job--as 2buck said[cream of tartar will give you an extra 15 to 20 min with your mix[couple table spoons per mix][added to water before plaster]If you trowel your mix too much it blisters , only trowel and run blister brush when it starts to firm up[ finger test/and color change] We go with 1 1/2 hrs per mix --applied,doubled,brushed, finished troweled, corners brushed in with 1" paint brush, and on to next mix. If I think of any thing I missed I write some more later----Last one I did ,job was fc$d up so I didnt video---some day I will--promise[and the owners check bounced!!!!] Good now tho


YOur last job (with Diamond Veneer?) f'd up? Is this stuff that touchy, then? 

I've wondered just how hard it is to work with Diamond as compared to other types.


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

JustMe said:


> YOur last job (with Diamond Veneer?) f'd up? Is this stuff that touchy, then?
> 
> I've wondered just how hard it is to work with Diamond as compared to other types.


Should clarify-- the jobsite was fkd up-- the plaster came out great-- 2 slowest carpenters in the world trying to get the 3 rooms ready and all their crap in my way[I,m on a time limit now/doing it parttime] Now my 3 hr nite work and 9-10 hr sat work time every minute is like gold!!!


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

I got word yesterday from our field supervisor that the painter told him the Diamond I did with the other guy finished out looking great.

Check out mud. Taper's best friend.


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Often Check cracks happen if the plaster dries before it sets. Too much moving air, open doors or windows, too much sun or heat, etc. can dry the diamond finish way too soon. Also thin spots less than about 3/32" to 1/8" thick (at least half again thicker than a cardboard shim) will cause mud to check crack. I've had trouble with painters getting sand and sealer or laquer on the walls. I even had a job where coca cola got splattered on the walls and caused problems.


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

endo_alley said:


> Often Check cracks happen if the plaster dries before it sets. Too much moving air, open doors or windows, too much sun or heat, etc. can dry the diamond finish way too soon. Also thin spots less than about 3/32" to 1/8" thick (at least half again thicker than a cardboard shim) will cause mud to check crack. I've had trouble with painters getting sand and sealer or laquer on the walls. I even had a job where coca cola got splattered on the walls and caused problems.


I have been thinking of replacing diamond with thin-set. Have never tried it before, But I don't see why it wouldn't work. As long as it was blue board or the drywall had plaster weld on it. A 50 pound bag of diamond cost $25. A 25 pound bag of thin set cost five dollars.


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## R.E. Plaster (Jun 27, 2009)

Depending on the temp in the room that defiantly will affect the product, but also if you try to start troweling the material to soon you can break the set and then it creates a cracking or cottage cheese looking affect because the mud is not quit set then all you have is a fight on your hands.
Try using the material in smaller rooms until you get familiar with it. If its just a couple of guys have them work together to get area done as a unit, sometimes diamond doesnt like to blend well into and already finished joint or area


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

R.E. Plaster said:


> Depending on the temp in the room that defiantly will affect the product, but also if you try to start troweling the material to soon you can break the set and then it creates a cracking or cottage cheese looking affect because the mud is not quit set then all you have is a fight on your hands. Try using the material in smaller rooms until you get familiar with it. If its just a couple of guys have them work together to get area done as a unit, sometimes diamond doesnt like to blend well into and already finished joint or area


 what do you think about replacing diamond Imperial with thin set? I can buy 25 pound bags of thin set from any Home Depot five bucks.


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