# edge showing after paint



## Kiwiman

Anyone else have this problem? after your work is painted the edge of the mudded and sanded seam shows under strong light as if it hasn't been sanded back enough, even though you know for a fact the edge is sanded back tight, one of my regular clients (that is fussy to the extreme) and I have been putting our heads together to try and figure out whats causing it, we will both check a join before painting to prove it is sanded properly and it still shows, it only really seems to happen on their jobs, the painter sands the sealer and I know for a fact it's top quality paint, I've heard that it can be caused by waterbased paint wetting and swelling the mud a bit, could that be the cause?
It didn't happen on my own house and I'm not a painters backside, I used the same mud, same paint and same techniques, it was hot weather so maybe the paint drying fast is why it didn't happen?
Whadeeya reckon fella's?


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## smisner50s

Kiwiman said:


> Anyone else have this problem? after your work is painted the edge of the mudded and sanded seam shows under strong light as if it hasn't been sanded back enough, even though you know for a fact the edge is sanded back tight, one of my regular clients (that is fussy to the extreme) and I have been putting our heads together to try and figure out whats causing it, we will both check a join before painting to prove it is sanded properly and it still shows, it only really seems to happen on their jobs, the painter sands the sealer and I know for a fact it's top quality paint, I've heard that it can be caused by waterbased paint wetting and swelling the mud a bit, could that be the cause?
> It didn't happen on my own house and I'm not a painters backside, I used the same mud, same paint and same techniques, it was hot weather so maybe the paint drying fast is why it didn't happen?
> Whadeeya reckon fella's?


 i have had that happen before as well..reason....i think it swelling mud..but i dont know for sure..it does make you mad i will admite


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## SlimPickins

Are you talking about the very feathered edge, or about the edge of the recess? I see the same thing happen with screws all the time.


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## machinemud

*Painter's fault*

It happend when the painter spray the paint and mix it with too much water


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## wnybassman

machinemud said:


> It happend when the painter spray the paint and mix it with too much water


We've had that with metal bead and screw holes too, when the paint stayed too wet too long on the walls. H/O sprayed it themselves on one of the most humid days in the spring, and they thought three coats in one day was a good idea. :blink:


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## Kiwiman

SlimPickins said:


> Are you talking about the very feathered edge, or about the edge of the recess? I see the same thing happen with screws all the time.


Yeah thats it, the feathered edge, one response I have come up with is if level 4 was supposed to be perfect then why is there a level 5....that f#cks'em he he.
I guess I should pay more attention to the climate at the time to see whether it's worse when it's cold, the painters are adamant they aren't thinning their sealer.....maybe their boss is pre-thinning it before they pick it up. Maybe it's when they seal it and put the first coat of colour on the same day.


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## wnybassman

Is it just a texture difference?


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## Kiwiman

wnybassman said:


> Is it just a texture difference?


Not texture difference, the feathered edge ends up looking like it's raised and not blended in to the wall as good as it was before painting, it only shows under strong side lighting which is fine for some people but not for others.


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## Lloydnz

hi kiwi man we are having a similiar problem.the painters that have followed us for the last 15 years have all ways rolled the sealer on then sand it the next day before applying the first color coat never has the joint flash through. our new painter sprays the sealer to walls and ceilings and first color coat on the ceilings the first day and does not back roll .there is so much paint on the ceiling that it tracks the joints and projects the the tape through and high lights the edge of the joints. we use a full air dry system by usg to tape and finish the joints and have not had any problems with there material for the last 10 years. the ownly thing that has changed is the way the paint is applied.we are working on getting a new painter that rolls his work.Have a happy new yea all. cheers Lloyd.


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## Bazooka-Joe

Kiwiman said:


> Anyone else have this problem? after your work is painted the edge of the mudded and sanded seam shows under strong light as if it hasn't been sanded back enough, even though you know for a fact the edge is sanded back tight, one of my regular clients (that is fussy to the extreme) and I have been putting our heads together to try and figure out whats causing it, we will both check a join before painting to prove it is sanded properly and it still shows, it only really seems to happen on their jobs, the painter sands the sealer and I know for a fact it's top quality paint, I've heard that it can be caused by waterbased paint wetting and swelling the mud a bit, could that be the cause?
> It didn't happen on my own house and I'm not a painters backside, I used the same mud, same paint and same techniques, it was hot weather so maybe the paint drying fast is why it didn't happen?
> Whadeeya reckon fella's?


Kiwi Up here is 1 result can be frozen mud now I know you have that problem down there so take the freeking mud out of the deep freezer,

Joe from Trim Tex did an article on cheap paint being just that....

Ya never cleaned your Mixing Paddle of after tape Mud

You used all Purpose Mud and then softer mud on top, or just fuked up and mixed half glue mud with topping mud, now your looking for someone to put the finger on......

Solution: Tell em ya just don't give a flying fuk

let the air outta everyones tires in the parking lot so ya know outta all you got the guy who Fuk'd you...:whistling2:

Get 2bjr to come down and sand it out with his 120 grit

your 10 box blade is worn so it tracks and when you sand you still left a ridge, then you ran 12 and your mud was to heavy to absorb the track,

Painter had it in for you after you left him the last suite as said in previous post toooo much water added to primer


ok so if you have not found the solution at Bazooka Joe's Kwick answers then I just don't know and I don't give a flying 5 :jester:


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## boco

Kiwiman said:


> Anyone else have this problem? after your work is painted the edge of the mudded and sanded seam shows under strong light as if it hasn't been sanded back enough, even though you know for a fact the edge is sanded back tight, one of my regular clients (that is fussy to the extreme) and I have been putting our heads together to try and figure out whats causing it, we will both check a join before painting to prove it is sanded properly and it still shows, it only really seems to happen on their jobs, the painter sands the sealer and I know for a fact it's top quality paint, I've heard that it can be caused by waterbased paint wetting and swelling the mud a bit, could that be the cause?
> It didn't happen on my own house and I'm not a painters backside, I used the same mud, same paint and same techniques, it was hot weather so maybe the paint drying fast is why it didn't happen?
> Whadeeya reckon fella's?


 I had the same problem . i concluded that the rock was not acclimated. in other words sheetrock is swollen and joint compound is set. What i did for a remedy was double the seams up with a new sharp knife and pissed it down more then normal. Then i used a PVA primer/sealer. Primer is the key here. Get one with a high solids content. If this doesnt cure the problem then you will have to go with a level 5 finish. Also I would like to Know if you can put a moisture meter on it. I would guess the rock is around 30 -33 percent.


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## Capt-sheetrock

I've done a heap of drywall and a heap of paint. IMHO,,, IF you are gonna use ALOT of light on a wall,,,you better level 5 it. Thats why level 5 is around. I maybe be wrong(usually am) but I feel that a 500 watt halide will show you fly footprints on the paper AFTER its painted.

Seriously tho,,, after a lifetime of doing both,,,I really don't know ANY method that a 500 watt halide won't show a defect. Perhaps I really am a hack.:yes:


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## SlimPickins

Kiwiman said:


> Yeah thats it, the feathered edge, one response I have come up with is if level 4 was supposed to be perfect then why is there a level 5....that f#cks'em he he.
> I guess I should pay more attention to the climate at the time to see whether it's worse when it's cold, the painters are adamant they aren't thinning their sealer.....maybe their boss is pre-thinning it before they pick it up. Maybe it's when they seal it and put the first coat of colour on the same day.


Yeah, it sounds like a L5 situation if you can see something as minimal as that. It comes back down to that difference in texture between the rock and the mud. Same thing happens when you do a touch up over sanded finish and don't sand the touch-up. I don't think your mud is swelling, I think you've got nasty light. :confused1:


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## Bazooka-Joe

SlimPickins said:


> Yeah, it sounds like a L5 situation if you can see something as minimal as that. It comes back down to that difference in texture between the rock and the mud. Same thing happens when you do a touch up over sanded finish and don't sand the touch-up. I don't think your mud is swelling, I think you've got nasty light. :confused1:



like said in previous post primer should eat it


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## Kiwiman

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Kiwi Up here is 1 result can be frozen mud now I know you have that problem down there so take the freeking mud out of the deep freezer,
> 
> Joe from Trim Tex did an article on cheap paint being just that....
> 
> Ya never cleaned your Mixing Paddle of after tape Mud
> 
> You used all Purpose Mud and then softer mud on top, or just fuked up and mixed half glue mud with topping mud, now your looking for someone to put the finger on......
> 
> Solution: Tell em ya just don't give a flying fuk
> 
> let the air outta everyones tires in the parking lot so ya know outta all you got the guy who Fuk'd you...:whistling2:
> 
> Get 2bjr to come down and sand it out with his 120 grit
> 
> your 10 box blade is worn so it tracks and when you sand you still left a ridge, then you ran 12 and your mud was to heavy to absorb the track,
> 
> Painter had it in for you after you left him the last suite as said in previous post toooo much water added to primer
> 
> 
> ok so if you have not found the solution at Bazooka Joe's Kwick answers then I just don't know and I don't give a flying 5 :jester:


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## Kiwiman

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I've done a heap of drywall and a heap of paint. IMHO,,, IF you are gonna use ALOT of light on a wall,,,you better level 5 it. Thats why level 5 is around. I maybe be wrong(usually am) but I feel that a 500 watt halide will show you fly footprints on the paper AFTER its painted.
> 
> Seriously tho,,, after a lifetime of doing both,,,I really don't know ANY method that a 500 watt halide won't show a defect. Perhaps I really am a hack.:yes:


Yeah, thats what I've said before, if level 4 was perfect then why is there a level 5 
The biggest culprit is downlights close to the wall like in hallways etc, I usually say that light can make a speck of fly sh!t look like a mountain but I like the fly footprint way of putting it too :thumbsup:
The thing is no matter what type of lighting you throw at it it can show on some jobs and on other jobs it doesn't, it's sealed and sanded and is definitely not a texture diff thing, I know what that looks like, maybe the guy's that haven't come across it have descent painters and a warm climate and don't get the same thing happening?, we've got different board and possibly different paint here so maybe it's a Kiwi thing, I think Lloydnz is on to it and knows what I mean


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## mudslingercor

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I've done a heap of drywall and a heap of paint. IMHO,,, IF you are gonna use ALOT of light on a wall,,,you better level 5 it. Thats why level 5 is around. I maybe be wrong(usually am) but I feel that a 500 watt halide will show you fly footprints on the paper AFTER its painted.
> 
> Totally agree that goes with the really dark paint colors as well, Tall walls with natural sunlight also a level 5 suggestion should be recommended, when they refuse at least you covered your ass from the fallout


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## moore

After the sun sets . Shine A 500 watt hologen across the wall at the just the right angle..It will show you fly footprints ,and his DNA! Everyones work looks great till that just right light hits It ,,and your like WOW! I did that? 

A painter can make your work look really good.or he can turn It to chit.. then blame you for It. I have often thought of covering all windows with black plastic so the hologen can tell it's story during working hours ... Yeah I know... crazy!


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## Bazooka-Joe

moore said:


> After the sun sets . Shine A 500 watt hologen across the wall at the just the right angle..It will show you fly footprints ,and his DNA! Everyones work looks great till that just right light hits It ,,and your like WOW! I did that?
> 
> A painter can make your work look really good.or he can turn It to chit.. then blame you for It. I have often thought of covering all windows with black plastic so the hologen can tell it's story during working hours ... Yeah I know... crazy!


not crazy:thumbsup: unless we are both crazy.... thing is when you do the last sweep around the place I get it before sun up or after sundown, then check after primer as I find doing touchups before during and after is alot of touch ups, unless I am crazy

few years back a painter did not backroll, I was there till 3 in the morn, my head was hanging after I left I was sooo tierd, the greaser blew my work, boss seen my willingness to try to move the job forward as we were behind and gave me a $2fatty bonus and when job was done he left town and left the place to me to repair and I also got 6 boxes of mud a 5 can of tex primer some bags o hot mud, 

and the moral of the story is don't let painter break you day


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## 2buckcanuck

Kiwiman said:


> Anyone else have this problem? after your work is painted the edge of the mudded and sanded seam shows under strong light as if it hasn't been sanded back enough, even though you know for a fact the edge is sanded back tight, one of my regular clients (that is fussy to the extreme) and I have been putting our heads together to try and figure out whats causing it, we will both check a join before painting to prove it is sanded properly and it still shows, it only really seems to happen on their jobs, the painter sands the sealer and I know for a fact it's top quality paint, I've heard that it can be caused by waterbased paint wetting and swelling the mud a bit, could that be the cause?
> It didn't happen on my own house and I'm not a painters backside, I used the same mud, same paint and same techniques, it was hot weather so maybe the paint drying fast is why it didn't happen?
> Whadeeya reckon fella's?












Maybe it's because your work sucks









Look who's picking on who now









But on the serious side, it's what the others said, sounds like paint issue:yes:


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## fenez

I don't know about you guys but it clearly states on every can of usg mud and in the drywall handbook that critical lighting requires a skim coat (level 5). If a regular level 4 could stand up to that kind of lighting than no one would have to skim. Why bust your ass when a contractor simply doesn't want to pay for the right finish. There are also instances when a plaster veneer is required when a level 5 won't cut it.


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## Kiwiman

2buckcanuck said:


> Maybe it's because your work sucks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look who's picking on who now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But on the serious side, it's what the others said, sounds like paint issue:yes:


Oh good, he's back, it didn't feel right having to pick on Caz while you were gone .


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## 2buckcanuck

fenez said:


> I don't know about you guys but it clearly states on every can of usg mud and in the drywall handbook that critical lighting requires a skim coat (level 5). If a regular level 4 could stand up to that kind of lighting than no one would have to skim. Why bust your ass when a contractor simply doesn't want to pay for the right finish. There are also instances when a plaster veneer is required when a level 5 won't cut it.


Say what you want, but I still think it's because kiwimans work sucks:jester::whistling2:


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## Kiwiman

fenez said:


> I don't know about you guys but it clearly states on every can of usg mud and in the drywall handbook that critical lighting requires a skim coat (level 5). If a regular level 4 could stand up to that kind of lighting than no one would have to skim. Why bust your ass when a contractor simply doesn't want to pay for the right finish. There are also instances when a plaster veneer is required when a level 5 won't cut it.


Bingo, I charge like a wounded bull for skimcoating and some of my clients like to try and acheive level 5 quality at a Level 4 price.
Don't listen to 2Buck, I think he's on day 4 of a 5 day bender


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## fenez

Kiwiman said:


> Bingo, I charge like a wounded bull for skimcoating and some of my clients like to try and acheive level 5 quality at a Level 4 price.
> Don't listen to 2Buck, I think he's on day 4 of a 5 day bender


I always ask what they are using for paint, I check to see if there are any wall sconces or wall washing lights, if there are any then I recommend a skim coat, if they say they don't want it then they don't get a come back for an issue if it is caused by the lighting. I always tell them I only follow the manufacturers specifications and if an area requires a level 5 then that's what it should get.


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## 2buckcanuck

Kiwiman said:


> Bingo, I charge like a wounded bull for skimcoating and some of my clients like to try and acheive level 5 quality at a Level 4 price.
> Don't listen to 2Buck, I think he's on day 4 of a 5 day bender


Day 5 of a house from hell and training new guys:furious:,,,, well 2.5 days of training new guys. The left winger is gone now, the one who thinks he's entitled to things and thinks he is the boss. Some female 31 years ago told me he's what you call a "SON":furious:


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## Mudshark

2buckcanuck said:


> Day 5 of a house from hell and training new guys:furious:,,,, well 2.5 days of training new guys. The left winger is gone now, the one who thinks he's entitled to things and thinks he is the boss. Some female 31 years ago told me he's what you call a "SON":furious:


Does this mean you will be wiping the tapes on your butts better now? :smartass:


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## cazna

British paints 501 sealer is a bad choice here in nz, Its super cheap, And if they add water its really thin, A lot of painters use it as its $65 per 10L bucket if you buy 10 buckets in one go, Then thin it to get it to spread further, A paint salesman told me painters put 2 or 3 litres of water in it  BUT, If you spray it, and cross hatch spray it, And really build it up then it can cover like the spray level 5 products, Back rolling seems important if you only lightly spray, But if you triple layer it up then its very good.

I can spray ceilings like this, Lightly sand, Then spray two top coats with a 614 fine finish tip with no rolling at all and its all good, No bother, No flashing, All good, Its the sealer/ primer that does that, The first top coat should not be able to soak into the board, It should stay wet and dry slowly and look like a finish coat, Then your on the right track becouse the final coat will sit on this, stay wet, Not soak in, And dry even over a well built up surface, If the sealer is thin or broken through with sanding then the next top coat soaks in uneven and will need to act as a sealer in some spots, Thats not a very good base for the top coat at all, as it will dry and settle uneven.

Level 4 finshed drywall is actaully 3 different surfaces, The plaster, The board paper, and the sanded plaster/paper edges. 3 Different textures that will take up paint differently and all three can look different under lighting, Worse if the board is covered in sanding dust, Hence the need to backroll and sand, Which leads to thin dust filled sealer that needs sanded, which leads to broken sealer, Which leads to flashing.

So getting rid of sanding dust is fairly important, How do we do that, Hand sanding holds more dust on the board than machine sanding, But machine sanding still leaves dust, So wooster dust eaters, Garden blowers, Cheap extendable nylon dusters are good as well.

I wonder if lightweight, midweight, or heavy weight muds make any difference?? Do lightweight and midweights that are softer and less dence than heavy weight muds swell more with thin sealer??? Maybe??? I dont always paint my own work and havent noticed edges before but i am aware of the three surfaces and dust and try and take care not to over sand the edge paper, This is a trouble spot and can mess up, Thats why a good thick sealer to cover everything is important, Most of it is to thick and needs thinned to get even cover and soak in the board or thick un thinned sealer can sit on the top and not get a key (Stick) to the board and delaminate, Sit on drywall dust and not soak in, So its a fine line between thinned good and thinned bad. Isnt drywall and decorating easy :jester:


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## cdwoodcox

You're all right a proper dusting and a good primer are all important. And in some cases a level 5 finish is what is needed. To get to the original question about seeing edges after sanding my personal opinion is blame the drywall manufacturer. When you are sanding compound you are also sanding the paper off the drywall once dusted and painted this becomes evident and you see the edge. Next time you are sanding watch the paper fuzz up 
hard to get rid of an edge when the surface below the edge is disappearing also.


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## Bazooka-Joe

Kiwiman said:


> Bingo, I charge like a wounded bull for skimcoating and some of my clients like to try and acheive level 5 quality at a Level 4 price.
> Don't listen to 2Buck, I think he's on day 4 of a 5 day bender


well I know I am going to get alot of radiation over this next comment, but I am stocking up on the artillery,

Level 5 is sh$t sheer Bullsh5t if you do a nice blend with soft muds and primed it with a real primer, coated your beads with a nice sized trowel then that is all you have to do

Joe from Trim Tex states: "cheap paint is just that"

now I did a couple 5* hotels and we did not Level 5 it but the paints were top quality, anyone could walk through there with a light and could not find sh%t

I darby'd the Butts and let me tell ya that was enough, I ran my coats so tight one guy could not sand my work

level 5 is to have the same surface, I have painted many cars and after I patch I prime that spot sand it seal it and start painting, when the sun sits at High Noon and I see all my work looks better than some disco dancer telling me level 5 SH%T


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## Kiwiman

Bazooka-Joe said:


> well I know I am going to get alot of radiation over this next comment, but I am stocking up on the artillery,
> 
> Level 5 is sh$t sheer Bullsh5t if you do a nice blend with soft muds and primed it with a real primer, coated your beads with a nice sized trowel then that is all you have to do
> 
> Joe from Trim Tex states: "cheap paint is just that"
> 
> now I did a couple 5* hotels and we did not Level 5 it but the paints were top quality, anyone could walk through there with a light and could not find sh%t
> 
> I darby'd the Butts and let me tell ya that was enough, I ran my coats so tight one guy could not sand my work
> 
> level 5 is to have the same surface, I have painted many cars and after I patch I prime that spot sand it seal it and start painting, when the sun sits at High Noon and I see all my work looks better than some disco dancer telling me level 5 SH%T


I've always said there are very few situations where L5 is needed, with a good taper and a good painter etc you cannot tell the difference.
A classic example was quite a few years back I did a new house where the owner would only listen to her colour consultant, she recommended L5 to the living areas only, I explained to her I'm going to charge an extra $2000 to skimcoat and I told her the "what where & why" about skimcoating, so anyway, after it was painted I asked her if she can see any difference between the skimmed and the un-skimmed part of the house.....No, and thats why I charge like a wounded bull for L5, if they are silly enough not to listen to me then they are silly enough to pay me wads of cash for it :yes:.
Usually I'll skim skylights just in case the painters are not much good but I leave it up to the bill payer to decide if they want anything else done.
At the end of the day, if someone's not very good at detail sanding etc then L5 could end up worse than L4.....so you might as well just let the painter f#ck it up .


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## Virginia Beach

I have used USG "First Coat" for a long time and have almost eliminated any edge/flashing problems. It is almost as good as doing a level 5 finish and does not cost any more than any good primer. My 2nd choice is Valspar Multi Purpose primer. I used the Valspar in a "pinch" a while back and was very impressed with it. 

http://http://www.usg.com/sheetrock-first-coat-primer.html

http://http://www.valsparpaint.com/...rior/primer/interior-latex-multi-purpose.html

Both products need a good spray rig. They are pretty viscous.


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## cdwoodcox

Virginia Beach said:


> I have used USG "First Coat" for a long time and have almost eliminated any edge/flashing problems. It is almost as good as doing a level 5 finish and does not cost any more than any good primer. My 2nd choice is Valspar Multi Purpose primer. I used the Valspar in a "pinch" a while back and was very impressed with it.
> 
> http://http://www.usg.com/sheetrock-first-coat-primer.html
> 
> http://http://www.valsparpaint.com/...rior/primer/interior-latex-multi-purpose.html
> 
> Both products need a good spray rig. They are pretty viscous.


 I agree sheetrock firstcoat primer is in my opinion better than most high dollar primers. You can take it one step further and use sheetrock tuf hide. I do not like the valspar primers. The ones I have used seemed to take forever to dry plus they smell.


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## drywall guy158

i agree on the valspar....thats what i recommend to all my customers who are going to do there own painting and thats what i use when i'm doing it. i never have had a problem with it so far....nothing showing after the primer is applied. that stuff will turn green board snow white in 1 coat.


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## Bazooka-Joe

Kiwiman said:


> I've always said there are very few situations where L5 is needed, with a good taper and a good painter etc you cannot tell the difference.
> A classic example was quite a few years back I did a new house where the owner would only listen to her colour consultant, she recommended L5 to the living areas only, I explained to her I'm going to charge an extra $2000 to skimcoat and I told her the "what where & why" about skimcoating, so anyway, after it was painted I asked her if she can see any difference between the skimmed and the un-skimmed part of the house.....No, and thats why I charge like a wounded bull for L5, if they are silly enough not to listen to me then they are silly enough to pay me wads of cash for it :yes:.
> Usually I'll skim skylights just in case the painters are not much good but I leave it up to the bill payer to decide if they want anything else done.
> At the end of the day, if someone's not very good at detail sanding etc then L5 could end up worse than L4.....so you might as well just let the painter f#ck it up .


:thumbsup:


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## Mudshark

I agree with what you say Kiwiman on the L4/L5 debate. You really do charge like a wounded bull dont you? $2000 extra!! Thats great if you can get a customer to pay that.


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## Kiwiman

Mudshark said:


> I agree with what you say Kiwiman on the L4/L5 debate. You really do charge like a wounded bull dont you? $2000 extra!! Thats great if you can get a customer to pay that.


It was a big job but I thought I would teach her a lesson anyway :sneaky2:.


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## fenez

There is a difference between the mud and the Sheet rock paper, which is what the light picks up
Doesn't matter how you sand it, if the light hits it just right you will see it even if its just for a few minutes a day. Bottom line is there are two different surfaces and with a skim its one surface so there are no edges


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## Bazooka-Joe

fenez said:


> There is a difference between the mud and the Sheet rock paper, which is what the light picks up
> Doesn't matter how you sand it, if the light hits it just right you will see it even if its just for a few minutes a day. Bottom line is there are two different surfaces and with a skim its one surface so there are no edges


thats why the paint roller leaves it's roller texture


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## Capt-sheetrock

Bazooka-Joe said:


> thats why the paint roller leaves it's roller texture


 Ahh,,,come on now


are you pissing down my back,,,or is it really raining out there????


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## Bazooka-Joe

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Ahh,,,come on now
> 
> 
> are you pissing down my back,,,or is it really raining out there????


Not at all I did auto paint and worked for a painter turned taper, did a few 5 star hotels, also worked with a high quality DWC asked him what he thought he said that's ****, 

Not pissing in the rain at all just how it is, on a car there is 2 surfaces also, paint take it out everytime, on the 67 Chevelle where the roof meets the body at the back there is bondo put on by the factory........


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## fenez

Bazooka-Joe said:


> thats why the paint roller leaves it's roller texture


oh come on now get real... There isn't a guy here who hasn't gone back to job and saw something that they knew looked perfect when they finished and thought to themselves.....what the hell happened there? Don't matter how good you are in certain situations its gonna show. And if your roller is leaving that much texture I suggest you use a different roller


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## Bazooka-Joe

fenez said:


> oh come on now get real... There isn't a guy here who hasn't gone back to job and saw something that they knew looked perfect when they finished and thought to themselves.....what the hell happened there? Don't matter how good you are in certain situations its gonna show.


you pissing in the rain? touch ups are touch ups

take a look at the wall next to you it left texture, think your not really understanding what I am saying, it is like saying I did level 5 and there is a touch up, 

I understand with what your saying but with mint tape and mint paint, all ticky boo


----------



## fenez

shiny paint and light will show anything. You can sand all you want won't make a difference


----------



## Mudshark

Bazooka-Joe said:


> thats why the paint roller leaves it's roller texture


I keep hearing from painters that say "we can fix that". Yes I am sure you can fix a lot of our less than perfect work, just dont put the paint on so thin. :furious:


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

fenez said:


> shiny paint and light will show anything. You can sand all you want won't make a difference


Now your talking oil base but if you cover all previous mud so cover first coat completely with a nice skim and sand it right and prime it right no flash, I worked for a painter turned taper, how shiney do you think auto paint is? I knew this would bring radiation as some people can't do it and that is fine to


----------



## gazman

Shine a torch light across a piece of glass, see the ripples? Light does nasty things.


----------



## Mudshark

gazman said:


> Shine a torch light across a piece of glass, see the ripples? Light does nasty things.


Good analogy. And of course all our work is like glass, right?


----------



## fenez

hey I'm in ny I would be more than willing to prime ,paint and shine a halogen across a wall for joe to show him.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

fenez said:


> hey I'm in ny I would be more than willing to prime ,paint and shine a halogen across a wall for joe to show him.


Wish the guy who I am talking about painter turned taper was around to show you, Key words sanded right primed right painted right, I know what light does I have painted cars and that tierd day and that one tiny spot you thought was ok, , now all I am saying is there is different qualities of paint, and the disco dancer who knock down the primer


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

Mudshark said:


> Good analogy. And of course all our work is like glass, right?


Mudshark Canadian Taping is a higher quality than most of America what do you think


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Mudshark Canadian Taping is a higher quality than most of America what do you think


Now there's starting a war,lol


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

2buckcanuck said:


> Now there's starting a war,lol


It's true 2buck I have seen the difference what do you think


----------



## Mudshark

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Mudshark Canadian Taping is a higher quality than most of America what do you think


Well it would be hard to compare Canada's quality to most of the United States. I thought some of your states had a much higher quality (New York, Virginia, California) than many of the other states (Carolina, Montana, Minnesota, Florida, Ohio) and in Canada the quality is high in British Columbia and Ontario but not so great in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Quebec. :whistling2: Lets see where this goes haha


----------



## moore

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Mudshark Canadian Taping is a higher quality than most of America what do you think


 I know your full of chit!! That's what I think.
There are average finishers ..and there are above average finishers ,,and then theres the lowballers . This Is world wide.. :yes:


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

*.*



Mudshark said:


> Well it would be hard to compare Canada's quality to most of the United States. I thought some of your states had a much higher quality (New York, Virginia, California) than many of the other states (Carolina, Montana, Minnesota, Florida, Ohio) and in Canada the quality is high in British Columbia and Ontario but not so great in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Quebec. :whistling2: Lets see where this goes haha


did not say all of America but most of it, Canada has a higher standard than most of America, unless you do Trump Pentshacks, 90210 or Good Ole boys from Tex shacks, and there are Pro Tapers everywhere inbetween


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Bazooka-Joe said:


> It's true 2buck I have seen the difference what do you think


I will stay out of that one:whistling2:

But I know you have worked both sides of the boarder, and every area has their own little way of doing things.

The only thing I will say about Canada is, from west of Quebec, everything seems to be done universally the same. Think it's one part our 2 seasons of weather, Most sub-contract under a large company, and most are in the ....... dare I say it...... the Union.

So if I hopped on a plane to Vancouver or Calgary, the same standard will apply, from what I have heard from other tapers. So guess some call that hear say, it's not my own personal experience so ..... :whistling2:

Those that travel alot, say like Mc dusty, drywall king or you would know better.

Does my comment buy me a pass


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

moore said:


> I know your full of chit!! That's what I think.
> There are average finishers ..and there are above average finishers ,,and then theres the lowballers . This Is world wide.. :yes:


Go to Canada and come back and tell me what you think, did not say All Americans are lower grade Tapers, been to Canada? I went up there and seen the difference more quality per capita

Well everyone has an opinion and that is fine too.. so I will leave it there


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Mudshark said:


> Well it would be hard to compare Canada's quality to most of the United States. I thought some of your states had a much higher quality (New York, Virginia, California) than many of the other states (Carolina, Montana, Minnesota, Florida, Ohio) and in Canada the quality is high in British Columbia and Ontario but not so great in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Quebec. :whistling2: Lets see where this goes haha


Oh yeah, I forgot about Saskatchewan, they suck, They don't even have a NHL hockey team either :jester:


----------



## machinemud

*What the hell...*

And explain me why the quality in quebec is not high ???? I'm waiting for this one ... You better have fact ... And i would compare my job with you anytime ...


----------



## Mudshark

machinemud said:


> And explain me why the quality in quebec is not high ???? I'm waiting for this one ... You better have fact ... And i would compare my job with you anytime ...


Hey just funnnin with you Quebecois people to get a reaction. It worked. :whistling2:


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

machinemud said:


> And explain me why the quality in quebec is not high ???? I'm waiting for this one ... You better have fact ... And i would compare my job with you anytime ...


Looks like 2buck and Mudshark started a war










Thanks for the usefull post


----------



## moore

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Go to Canada and come back and tell me what you think, did not say All Americans are lower grade Tapers, been to Canada? I went up there and seen the difference more quality per capita
> 
> Well everyone has an opinion and that is fine too.. so I will leave it there


 I would love to go to Canada ,And work with quality ..or NY for that matter ,,but ya get my point right?? Makes no matter were you are ..some care ,,some don't!! ,,,and some just don't have a clue..I have a good story for ya ..just too tired to type it at the moment .. I meant no disrespect Joe..


----------



## mudslingr

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Mudshark Canadian Taping is a higher quality than most of America what do you think


Like I said in a different thread, we (Ontario tapers anyway) are a very finicky bunch. Probably because of all the competition, good and bad. Maybe we are just mentally forced into striving for perfection. I don't know. Just a thought.

I too have worked both sides of our border and quality varies on both sides. Here in Ontario, as 2buck said, all tapers generally use the same system just not necessarily in the same order. Just like I was taught in Southern Ontario a 3 coat butt after taping, up here in Northwestern Ontario they look at me like I'm from Mars.

Now if you get into the smaller secluded towns and regions you will find tapers that basically learned by hit and miss really. In my city there are a lot of hacks who say they can tape and only a select few who can be really proud of what they do. But it is good to see tapers here finally learning to use machines.

I love staring at the walls in the big Vegas hotels ! There's some awesome work !:yes:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

machinemud said:


> And explain me why the quality in quebec is not high ???? I'm waiting for this one ... You better have fact ... And i would compare my job with you anytime ...


Sorry machine mud, West of Quebec was meaning quebec was included, guess I should of said west of maratimes , was assuming most would not know what provinces are that so......

But one problem you guys have is, your Unions are way too powerful, like bust your legs and blow up your car with you still in it powerful

Plus you guys cheer for a silly Hockey team:whistling2:


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

*.*



moore said:


> I would love to go to Canada ,And work with quality ..or NY for that matter ,,but ya get my point right?? Makes no matter were you are ..some care ,,some don't!! ,,,and some just don't have a clue..I have a good story for ya ..just too tired to type it at the moment .. I meant no disrespect Joe..


none taken tapers come and go some good some bad everywhere but if you seen the high quality in Canada you would see what I mean


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

*.*



2buckcanuck said:


> Sorry machine mud, West of Quebec was meaning quebec was included, guess I should of said west of maratimes , was assuming most would not know what provinces are that so......
> 
> But one problem you guys have is, your Unions are way too powerful, like bust your legs and blow up your car with you still in it powerful
> 
> Plus you guys cheer for a silly Hockey team:whistling2:



look at the line on their football team they are mostly American


----------



## moore

Bazooka-Joe said:


> none taken tapers come and go some good some bad everywhere but if you seen the high quality in Canada you would see what I mean


If you were to see my work In person ..You would whip It out ,,and point It north!! LOL!!!! :thumbsup:

Just joking!!


----------



## 2buckcanuck

mudslingr said:


> Like I said in a different thread, we (Ontario tapers anyway) are a very finicky bunch. Probably because of all the competition, good and bad. Maybe we are just mentally forced into striving for perfection. I don't know. Just a thought.
> 
> I too have worked both sides of our border and quality varies on both sides. Here in Ontario, as 2buck said, all tapers generally use the same system just not necessarily in the same order. Just like I was taught in Southern Ontario a 3 coat butt after taping, up here in Northwestern Ontario they look at me like I'm from Mars.
> 
> Now if you get into the smaller secluded towns and regions you will find tapers that basically learned by hit and miss really. In my city there are a lot of hacks who say they can tape and only a select few who can be really proud of what they do. But it is good to see tapers here finally learning to use machines.
> 
> I love staring at the walls in the big Vegas hotels ! There's some awesome work !:yes:


Think the 1st part of your post says it all, competition

So in some ways, it's not what country you live in, it's the population density of your area, a game of Monkey see, Monkey do. What every your competition is doing to beat you, you will copy him:thumbsup:


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

mudslingr said:


> Like I said in a different thread, we (Ontario tapers anyway) are a very finicky bunch. Probably because of all the competition, good and bad. Maybe we are just mentally forced into striving for perfection. I don't know. Just a thought.
> 
> I too have worked both sides of our border and quality varies on both sides. Here in Ontario, as 2buck said, all tapers generally use the same system just not necessarily in the same order. Just like I was taught in Southern Ontario a 3 coat butt after taping, up here in Northwestern Ontario they look at me like I'm from Mars.
> 
> Now if you get into the smaller secluded towns and regions you will find tapers that basically learned by hit and miss really. In my city there are a lot of hacks who say they can tape and only a select few who can be really proud of what they do. But it is good to see tapers here finally learning to use machines.
> 
> I love staring at the walls in the big Vegas hotels ! There's some awesome work !:yes:


YeAH Navada HAS SOME MINT STUFF, I like my 3 coat butts never have to worry if I missed up


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

2buckcanuck said:


> Think the 1st part of your post says it all, competition
> 
> So in some ways, it's not what country you live in, it's the population density of your area, a game of Monkey see, Monkey do. What every your competition is doing to beat you, you will copy him:thumbsup:



















we know you monkey around at work 2buck


----------



## Mudshark

Bazooka-Joe said:


> look at the line on their football team they are mostly American


Look at the line on your hockey team. They are mostly French Canadian. :w00t:


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

Mudshark said:


> Look at the line on your hockey team. They are mostly French Canadian. :w00t:


hey even swap or what?


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

Mudshark said:


> Look at the line on your hockey team. They are mostly French Canadian. :w00t:



thanks for taking over the war Mudshack and 2buck, seen ya throw the white shirt in fast


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Bazooka-Joe said:


> thanks for taking over the war Mudshack and 2buck, seen ya throw the white shirt in fast


Them yanks all own "GUNS"


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## 2buckcanuck

Bazooka-Joe said:


> thanks for taking over the war Mudshack and 2buck, seen ya throw the white shirt in fast


Actually, it is what I said with the population density.

I was on the phone talking to a major tool manufacture a few months ago, and I won't say who, but they are on this site.

They said there are certain states and provinces you can go to, and you would think you were following the same taper around. Then there were other places, where you would go WTF.

Even where I live, theres a town north west of me that is it's own little entity, and has a population around 80,000, and they suck with their quality. The city I service and it's surrounding towns, has a population of over a million, yet their fussy. You would think it would be the other way around, but it's not.:blink:

So it could be a lot of factors, like competition, word of mouth, larger companies, better supply houses, market control, the list could go on.....:yes:


----------



## Zendik

Mop the edges with a big semi wet sponge.


----------



## cdwoodcox

you guys are nuts. Quality isn't a regional thing it is a personality thing. Some guys care and understand quality means more work and more money some guys don't. I have seen canadian drywall on mike holmes (holmes on homes) and wasn't impressed. I'm assuming some of the guys on this site from Canada are better than that.:whistling2:

If I remember right someone mentioned new york Well I'll just say that supposedly the best drywaller to come out of the state of new york is Myron Ferguson.:thumbup:


----------



## SlimPickins

cdwoodcox said:


> you guys are nuts. Quality isn't a regional thing it is a personality thing. Some guys care and understand quality means more work and more money some guys don't. I have seen canadian drywall on mike holmes (holmes on homes) and wasn't impressed. I'm assuming some of the guys on this site from Canada are better than that.:whistling2:
> 
> If I remember right someone mentioned new york Well I'll just say that supposedly the best drywaller to come out of the state of new york is Myron Ferguson.:thumbup:


I think what they're trying to say is that quality comes in "packets", that there are zones where it just happens to be the norm. It makes sense, just like life.....some places have an abundance of beautiful people, and others make you want to hurry up and go home.


----------



## wnybassman

cdwoodcox said:


> I have seen canadian drywall on mike holmes (holmes on homes) and wasn't impressed.


I know, when you can tell it looks terrible on TV, just imagine what it looks like in person.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

cdwoodcox said:


> you guys are nuts. Quality isn't a regional thing it is a personality thing. Some guys care and understand quality means more work and more money some guys don't. I have seen canadian drywall on mike holmes (holmes on homes) and wasn't impressed. I'm assuming some of the guys on this site from Canada are better than that.:whistling2:
> 
> If I remember right someone mentioned new york Well I'll just say that supposedly the best drywaller to come out of the state of new york is Myron Ferguson.:thumbup:


Yes, but, for you or mike holmes to get a job in "most" areas I have worked, There are standards you half to meet. To become what I call a regular (be kept on full time).

They want machine tapers

They supply material, you might get to choose your AP mud, but not the bead type (no metal bead), and hotmuds are a big no no, they might give you a bag of it, but thats it

Then it's not you that gets to say if your work is a pass, it's some other clown, going over your work with a light. If they don't like what they see, they send you back to fix it

But they supply scaffold, clean work sites, proper heat and water, and do your b1tching for you

So just with these few points, there are certain standards always met, there's some form of control over the industry:yes:

But then again, if Myron Ferguson is from New York, maybe they have the best tapers


----------



## Mudshark

2buckcanuck said:


> But then again, if Myron Ferguson is from New York, maybe they have the best tapers


I knew it - I knew it. You do love Myron. And hey he wrote the book on drywall.:blink:


----------



## M T Buckets Painting

That picture of Myron on the book cover could get alot of discussion in itself.

He is on his knees finishing a joint. 
He is wearing a tool belt.
All of his materials are right in his way.

I would like to see a copy of that book, I could use a good laugh:yes:


----------



## wnybassman

2buckcanuck said:


> Yes, but, for you or mike holmes to get a job in "most" areas I have worked, There are standards you half to meet. To become what I call a regular (be kept on full time).
> 
> They want machine tapers
> 
> They supply material, you might get to choose your AP mud, but not the bead type (no metal bead), and hotmuds are a big no no, they might give you a bag of it, but thats it
> 
> Then it's not you that gets to say if your work is a pass, it's some other clown, going over your work with a light. If they don't like what they see, they send you back to fix it
> 
> But they supply scaffold, clean work sites, proper heat and water, and do your b1tching for you
> 
> So just with these few points, there are certain standards always met, there's some form of control over the industry:yes:
> 
> But then again, if Myron Ferguson is from New York, maybe they have the best tapers


Wow, I had no idea your country is so close to Communism :whistling2:


----------



## smisner50s

M T Buckets Painting said:


> That picture of Myron on the book cover could get alot of discussion in itself.
> 
> He is on his knees finishing a joint.
> He is wearing a tool belt.
> All of his materials are right in his way.
> 
> I would like to see a copy of that book, I could use a good laugh:yes:


I hate to admite it ..but i did buy that book and there is some good stuff in it ..i like to read it when im taking a dump.its not ad bad as on .would think


----------



## Mudshark

smisner50s said:


> I hate to admite it ..but i did buy that book and there is some good stuff in it ..i like to read it when im taking a dump.its not ad bad as on .would think


Well if you run out of toilet paper it is handy for something.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

cdwoodcox said:


> you guys are nuts. Quality isn't a regional thing it is a personality thing. Some guys care and understand quality means more work and more money some guys don't. I have seen canadian drywall on mike holmes (holmes on homes) and wasn't impressed. I'm assuming some of the guys on this site from Canada are better than that.:whistling2:
> 
> If I remember right someone mentioned new york Well I'll just say that supposedly the best drywaller to come out of the state of new york is Myron Ferguson.:thumbup:


Hey CD your coming through in Stereo:whistling2: I hear ya but what Mike Holmes is trying to do is make himself look like the Magdaddy, so he seeks out Low urban life shacks and has a field day talking about the sh%t involved,

the dead end world in Ontario is Toronto where there is alot of Sh%t work, Toronto is so many Immigrants who can't even speak English nevermind even wipe a tape, other areas the dwc's won't allow sh%t


----------



## cdwoodcox

2buckcanuck said:


> Yes, but, for you or mike holmes to get a job in "most" areas I have worked, There are standards you half to meet. To become what I call a regular (be kept on full time).
> 
> They want machine tapers
> 
> They supply material, you might get to choose your AP mud, but not the bead type (no metal bead), and hotmuds are a big no no, they might give you a bag of it, but thats it
> 
> Then it's not you that gets to say if your work is a pass, it's some other clown, going over your work with a light. If they don't like what they see, they send you back to fix it
> 
> But they supply scaffold, clean work sites, proper heat and water, and do your b1tching for you
> 
> So just with these few points, there are certain standards always met, there's some form of control over the industry:yes:
> 
> But then again, if Myron Ferguson is from New York, maybe they have the best tapers


So just out of curiosity are their guys like me in Canada. Or areas where you have worked. I subcontract off either the general contractor or the homeowner directly. Or does the big drywall contractors squash the little man. 
Honestly half of my time I kind of wish I had it like you. Show up do my work leave. no bidding jobs, no paper work, no payroll, Still pretty much run my own show. Obama isn't your elected leader.
After rereading that think I'll pack the wife and kids and move to Canada. Got any extra rooms.


----------



## boco

machinemud said:


> And explain me why the quality in quebec is not high ???? I'm waiting for this one ... You better have fact ... And i would compare my job with you anytime ...


 Montreal hs some of the finist workmanship in the world. Been to many cities but Montreal still impresses me the most. Not sure of the name but the church near Gibbies but its impressive. They just dont build with the detail places like they do in montreal . Masonary work is also very impressive. I say we have a DTF conference there to check out the work. Starting on St catherine ST. LOL


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

cdwoodcox said:


> So just out of curiosity are their guys like me in Canada. Or areas where you have worked. I subcontract off either the general contractor or the homeowner directly. Or does the big drywall contractors squash the little man.
> Honestly half of my time I kind of wish I had it like you. Show up do my work leave. no bidding jobs, no paper work, no payroll, Still pretty much run my own show. Obama isn't your elected leader.
> After rereading that think I'll pack the wife and kids and move to Canada. Got any extra rooms.


Sh%t Cd think you answered yourself on quality, you are accountable for Your jobs (Key words your Jobs) so you have to give the best you can...

dunno if you want to go up there and rent a room offa 2buck cause one thing I know is the loot in sub is no where near the loot you get, I shot dice on both sides of the Trade, last year I flat out told a DWC he payed me not even half of what I can make no stress in a 9 hour day, I still pull work in and shoot it to a buddy, I just keep what I can handle cause stress aint worth getting old over


----------



## 2buckcanuck

cdwoodcox said:


> So just out of curiosity are their guys like me in Canada. Or areas where you have worked. I subcontract off either the general contractor or the homeowner directly. Or does the big drywall contractors squash the little man.
> Honestly half of my time I kind of wish I had it like you. Show up do my work leave. no bidding jobs, no paper work, no payroll, Still pretty much run my own show. Obama isn't your elected leader.
> After rereading that think I'll pack the wife and kids and move to Canada. Got any extra rooms.


Sure there's guys like you in Canada, Sir Mudslingr is one of them, I know (we know) that he worked in the major markets. Then moved to a small northern town like Thunderbay. Bet he's the number one man in town due to his experience of working in high density areas. But you half to like snow where he lives:whistling2:, still no snow where I live so......

Then it's true what Bazooka joe said, If you can handle a huge city like Toronto, They do really suck there. There's a major condo boom going on there right now, but suppose to crash soon. Just knowing how to speak english puts you one step a head of the other tapers.

Then there's a small town I can PM you about, right on the boarder of the states. You could drive across the bridge every day. It's a tough nut to crack, but it's a peaceful town, no crime, and you get free health care too:yes:,,,, While heath care that's paid for through your taxes, it's good if you break a leg or something, just don't be dieing of a decease or something, you will wait in line


----------



## MUDBONE

fenez said:


> there is a difference between the mud and the sheet rock paper, which is what the light picks up
> doesn't matter how you sand it, if the light hits it just right you will see it even if its just for a few minutes a day. Bottom line is there are two different surfaces and with a skim its one surface so there are no edges


 mud has no eyes!


----------



## MUDBONE

"MUDBONE"-Made In AMERICA!


----------



## cdwoodcox

That little town across the border isn't very far actually. I map quested it I could be there in 5.25 hours. Or 303 miles that is less than 1 tank of diesel. I think I'm stuck where I am at though. And if I ever talk the wife into relocating I would rather head south. If I never saw snow again I would be fine with that. I could see myself border jumping to Canada for some fishing and hunting that would be cool.:yes:

Now I'm thinking about big drywall company's though. If I or someone else were to successfully launch one around here they could possibly reap huge benefits. You guys are paid as subcontractors right. They don't carry any ins. or comp on anyone. I have always been reluctant about getting to big it is hard to keep everything up to my standards if I'm not personally involved but everyone else is more worried about their price rather than my high standards anyway so why beat myself up over that.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

wnybassman said:


> Wow, I had no idea your country is so close to Communism :whistling2:


Yes, sorry about being so communist up here

Up here, when a rich man fails in his business, he ends up on the street. While in America, a rich man can go to your government, and collectively get the hard working, poor tax payer, to bail them out.

I guess us communist are not as nice to rich people like you guys, we don't like to share in their misery . I'm going to feel really bad going to work tomorrow. knowing my money will not be helping out a poor rich man, like your money will be:whistling2:

Oh, I'm also sorry for our bass fish being much bigger up here too:whistling2:


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

2buckcanuck said:


> Yes, sorry about being so communist up here
> 
> Up here, when a rich man fails in his business, he ends up on the street. While in America, a rich man can go to your government, and collectively get the hard working, poor tax payer, to bail them out.
> 
> I guess us communist are not as nice to rich people like you guys, we don't like to share in their misery . I'm going to feel really bad going to work tomorrow. knowing my money will not be helping out a poor rich man, like your money will be:whistling2:
> 
> Oh, I'm also sorry for our bass fish being much bigger up here too:whistling2:


Sounds like a fish story


----------



## joepro0000

To answer the original question, that happens when you spray and use cheap primer. Best primer I use is hands down - Valspar PVA primer, and for 39 a 5 its a steal. Sure it stinks, and its really strong, but I've done barricades, temp walls, ceilings with 1 coat and they told me it was good enough, did not need paint. Its like a Flat Paint/Primer, thick but great to spray. There are different textures, the mudded drywall and the un-mudded drywall, and this will show if you don't roll you coats of paint on. IF you only spray, suit yourself kiddys.


----------



## alltex

my answer to the original question is {and i got alot of crap on this forum before for saying this} Prime brfore texture.Your all masked anyway.just spray it and then texture ,same day.it drys in an hour or so and then you spray texture same thing level 5 does but a hell of alot easyer.around here its standard to prime before orange peel.I use cheap primer $23 a 5 last time i got a bunch at once and i never hear a word about mud lines ever.


----------



## Mudshark

alltex said:


> my answer to the original question is {and i got alot of crap on this forum before for saying this} Prime brfore texture.Your all masked anyway.just spray it and then texture ,same day.it drys in an hour or so and then you spray texture same thing level 5 does but a hell of alot easyer.around here its standard to prime before orange peel.I use cheap primer $23 a 5 last time i got a bunch at once and i never hear a word about mud lines ever.


Sorry alltex but the original question was edge showing after paint, not after texture. :yes:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

alltex said:


> my answer to the original question is {and i got alot of crap on this forum before for saying this} Prime brfore texture.Your all masked anyway.just spray it and then texture ,same day.it drys in an hour or so and then you spray texture same thing level 5 does but a hell of alot easyer.around here its standard to prime before orange peel.I use cheap primer $23 a 5 last time i got a bunch at once and i never hear a word about mud lines ever.


Crap from who? the only person who does not do it that way is silver stilts:whistling2:


----------



## carpentaper

*just a thought*

back to the original question. what are the possibilities that the finest part of the feathered edge is dissolved by the primer and sort of levels out while the part that is not dissolved by the time the sealer dries ends up showing an edge. so it might not be a case of the mud swelling so much as a problem of it dissolving.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

carpentaper said:


> back to the original question. what are the possibilities that the finest part of the feathered edge is dissolved by the primer and sort of levels out while the part that is not dissolved by the time the sealer dries ends up showing an edge. so it might not be a case of the mud swelling so much as a problem of it dissolving.


WTF

The paper will swell but not the mud. And what type of magical paint is only going to dissolve the edge of the mud only ??????

News years night, you must be drunk:whistling2:


----------



## Kiwiman

carpentaper said:


> back to the original question. what are the possibilities that the finest part of the feathered edge is dissolved by the primer and sort of levels out while the part that is not dissolved by the time the sealer dries ends up showing an edge. so it might not be a case of the mud swelling so much as a problem of it dissolving.


Come to think of it, when I install the cornice after the walls are sanded, sometimes I drip some water down the join and if anything it does look dissolved or washed out from getting wet again.


----------



## carpentaper

2buckcanuck said:


> WTF
> 
> The paper will swell but not the mud. And what type of magical paint is only going to dissolve the edge of the mud only ??????
> 
> News years night, you must be drunk:whistling2:


very sober. my thought though is that the primer will dry and bond with the majority of the mud before it can destabilize it. but that very fine edge could go from solid to liquid if there is too much contact with a water based primer before the drying occurs. can you not dissolve mud with water? it makes sense to me.


----------



## wnybassman

carpentaper said:


> very sober. my thought though is that the primer will dry and bond with the majority of the mud before it can destabilize it. but that very fine edge could go from solid to liquid if there is too much contact with a water based primer before the drying occurs. can you not dissolve mud with water? it makes sense to me.


And if it doesn't dissolve it, it might at very least re-moisten a layer and another round of shrinking occurs as it re-dries. That was our bad experience years ago anyway.


----------



## SlimPickins

wnybassman said:


> And if it doesn't dissolve it, it might at very least re-moisten a layer and another round of shrinking occurs as it re-dries. That was our bad experience years ago anyway.


I like this new round of thinking. I've been seeing this for a while now, mud getting wet and shrinking again. It could even be that the skim coat is wetted and shrinks, exposing the edge of the top coat beneath?


----------



## Kiwiman

SlimPickins said:


> I like this new round of thinking. I've been seeing this for a while now, mud getting wet and shrinking again. It could even be that the skim coat is wetted and shrinks, exposing the edge of the top coat beneath?


 I was just thinking maybe it's where the painter over rolls or works the paint in to the wall and it kind of softens and wipes off the feathered edge of the topcoat and it's the edge of the 2nd coat we can see.
A lot of the previous posts went waaaay off tack, like I said before it's definitely not a texture difference problem or is it necessarily the painters fault, nor is it necessarily something everyone has come across before.


----------



## Bazooka-Joe

Kiwiman said:


> I was just thinking maybe it's where the painter over rolls or works the paint in to the wall and it kind of softens and wipes off the feathered edge of the topcoat and it's the edge of the 2nd coat we can see.
> A lot of the previous posts went waaaay off tack, like I said before it's definitely not a texture difference problem or is it necessarily the painters fault, nor is it necessarily something everyone has come across before.


lets just face it Kiwi you loft an edge.....:blink:


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

Kiwiman said:


> I was just thinking maybe it's where the painter over rolls or works the paint in to the wall and it kind of softens and wipes off the feathered edge of the topcoat and it's the edge of the 2nd coat we can see.


I made a post on PaintTalk about how eggshell paint will show nail spots more than flat will. Of course they blasted me cause I have sheetrock in my screen name. 

Check this out,,, three coats with AP will shrink if painted with eggshell but not flat,,, cause they stay wet longer. If the painter is gonna use eggshell, the nails either need one coat with hot-mud, or 4 coats of AP.

The painters laughed at me,,, now its your turn,,,,,,,,,,

I could be wrong,,,,,,but I'm not,,:whistling2:


----------



## cazna

carpentaper said:


> back to the original question. what are the possibilities that the finest part of the feathered edge is dissolved by the primer and sort of levels out while the part that is not dissolved by the time the sealer dries ends up showing an edge. so it might not be a case of the mud swelling so much as a problem of it dissolving.


Well isnt that interesting, When rolling it can be surprising how much (Pull) the roller sleeve can have to the wall, Like the roller sticks and sucks to the wall, So when you roll it can pull on the wall, Like back rolling to spread out the dust etc, So, If the edge get a bit soft or dissolved and the rollers pulling on this area then could it remove the fine plaster edge, Hence, Showing and edge in the finished wall???? If your slow on the roller or its a warm day and the paint starts to set up then it gets stickier and would pull on the wall more.

I could be wrong......and maybe i am :thumbup:


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

cazna said:


> Well isnt that interesting, When rolling it can be surprising how much (Pull) the roller sleeve can have to the wall, Like the roller sticks and sucks to the wall, So when you roll it can pull on the wall, Like back rolling to spread out the dust etc, So, If the edge get a bit soft or dissolved and the rollers pulling on this area then could it remove the fine plaster edge, Hence, Showing and edge in the finished wall???? If your slow on the roller or its a warm day and the paint starts to set up then it gets stickier and would pull on the wall more.
> 
> I could be wrong......and maybe i am :thumbup:


I agree with ya here caz, mud and paper have differant qualities,,,, IF the paint that is applied is gonna stay wet for a long time,,, I believe it will have an effect on the joint, specially if its a shiney paint,,,, and ain't everything being painted with egg-shell or semi now-a-days???

Haveing said that,,, a level5 will fix the problem,,,, If there is no differance in the mud and the paper,,, the problem will dissapear,,,,, thats why level5 has become an issue,,,,, painters PUSH egg-shell,,,, it just don't cover the same way as flat does.


----------



## M T Buckets Painting

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I made a post on PaintTalk about how eggshell paint will show nail spots more than flat will. Of course they blasted me cause I have sheetrock in my screen name.
> 
> Check this out,,, three coats with AP will shrink if painted with eggshell but not flat,,, cause they stay wet longer. If the painter is gonna use eggshell, the nails either need one coat with hot-mud, or 4 coats of AP.
> 
> The painters laughed at me,,, now its your turn,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> I could be wrong,,,,,,but I'm not,,:whistling2:


I tend to disagree with you. If a proper primer application has been done, there should be no issues. The primer will put a sealed surface over the drywall preventing such things from occuring. A paint with a sheen will always amplify any drywall deficiencies. I don't see how it is going to make your compound shrink.


----------



## Kiwiman

Capt-sheetrock said:


> The painters laughed at me,,, now its your turn,,,,,,,,,,




I'm not up with painting terms but......whats eggshell paint? I presume it's something thats used here but with a different name.


----------



## Kiwiman

I could be wrong on this but it's my understanding that waterbased sealer and waterbased paints in general still breathes and lets moisture through not like oil based which stops any moisture getting through......Thats what I've always thought anyway.


----------



## M T Buckets Painting

The sheen that falls between semi-gloss and satin. It has the sheen factor of an eggshell, hence the name eggshell.


----------



## Kiwiman

Thanks M T, it's one of those questions I never asked before because I didn't want to look stupid for not knowing the answer.....and I just proved me right .
The more I think about it I think Carpy is pointing in the right direction, maybe it's where the flatbox has gone off track a bit and the feathered edge of the topcoat is very close to the edge of the 2nd coat and the moisture from the sealer has dissolved the feathered edge slightly exposing the 2nd coats edge which wasn't sanded.


----------



## M T Buckets Painting

Kiwiman said:


> I could be wrong on this but it's my understanding that waterbased sealer and waterbased paints in general still breathes and lets moisture through not like oil based which stops any moisture getting through......Thats what I've always thought anyway.


It depends on the material, 100% acrylic products are rock solid. Some of your bargain bin materials are no more than water and clay with very little bonding agents in them. Sometimes painters are forced to use inferior materials. Some GC's like to supply a cheap flat paint for primer. Cheap flat paint is just that, it is not a primer. I like to use primers such as SW High Build or Wasatch and Benjamin Moore Fresh Start or Aqua Lock. I have never had any issues with these materials. Using cheap paint for primer is like using good primer for finish paint, it isn't a good idea.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

M T Buckets Painting said:


> I tend to disagree with you. If a proper primer application has been done, there should be no issues. The primer will put a sealed surface over the drywall preventing such things from occuring. A paint with a sheen will always amplify any drywall deficiencies. I don't see how it is going to make your compound shrink.


 You are correct sir,,,, IF the drywall has been primed.

Most of the time,, around here,,, walls are painted with the finish paint, without primer,,, cause they want the CHEAPIEST price.

Right is right,,, and normal operating proceedures,,,are TWO DIFFERANT THINGS

Peace


----------



## Kiwiman

M T Buckets Painting said:


> It depends on the material, 100% acrylic products are rock solid. Some of your bargain bin materials are no more than water and clay with very little bonding agents in them. Sometimes painters are forced to use inferior materials. Some GC's like to supply a cheap flat paint for primer. Cheap flat paint is just that, it is not a primer. I like to use primers such as SW High Build or Wasatch and Benjamin Moore Fresh Start or Aqua Lock. I have never had any issues with these materials. Using cheap paint for primer is like using good primer for finish paint, it isn't a good idea.


The good stuff here is "Resene" or "Dulux", my money is on Resene, I've used Resene on my own house and you would think everything had been skimcoated after sanding the sealer with the portercable.....and I'm only a handyman once every 5 years type painter.


----------



## cazna

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I agree with ya here caz, mud and paper have differant qualities,,,, IF the paint that is applied is gonna stay wet for a long time,,, I believe it will have an effect on the joint, specially if its a shiney paint,,,, and ain't everything being painted with egg-shell or semi now-a-days???
> 
> Haveing said that,,, a level5 will fix the problem,,,, If there is no differance in the mud and the paper,,, the problem will dissapear,,,,, thats why level5 has become an issue,,,,, painters PUSH egg-shell,,,, it just don't cover the same way as flat does.


 
Maybe thats why my best work seems to be when i get to spray the primer, cross hatch, X3 coats, Its a level 5, No roller touches the wall and i can sand it back without breaking though so the second coat isnt absorbing.



Kiwiman said:


> Thanks M T, it's one of those questions I never asked before because I didn't want to look stupid for not knowing the answer.....and I just proved me right .
> The more I think about it I think Carpy is pointing in the right direction, maybe it's where the flatbox has gone off track a bit and the feathered edge of the topcoat is very close to the edge of the 2nd coat and the moisture from the sealer has dissolved the feathered edge slightly exposing the 2nd coats edge which wasn't sanded.


Thats were 2bucks rough sanding between coats helps.



Kiwiman said:


> The good stuff here is "Resene" or "Dulux", my money is on Resene, I've used Resene on my own house and you would think everything had been skimcoated after sanding the sealer with the portercable.....and I'm only a handyman once every 5 years type painter.


Resene is starting to beat dulux, I was a dulux fan becouse there wash and ware had a lower sheen level than resenes zylone, And the resene would roller line and roller/brush mark worse than the wash and ware. So a dulux wall always looked better than a resene, But, Its changing, Dulux is getting more eggshell so there is not as much difference, The resene waterbased enamal low sheen spacecoat is now the top brew, Everyone is getting mad on being able to wipe there walls, Spacecoat is the best for that and being a waterbased enamal it has a different look, It drys quite even, Less roller/brush marks and the sheen is like eggshell, BUT its different, It is shiny ish but dosnt seem to catch wall defects like standard water based acylic, Its quite an exciting prospect for the future, Its very very good, But the [email protected] only sell it in 4Litre, Or one gallon tins, So it costs nearly twice that of 10Litre standard waterbased acrylic, But, get this, The [email protected] sell it in 10Litre buckets in austrailia, NZ made product.

Waterbased enamals are the future, Here is another brand giving it a go, I have heard its very good and at good prices.

http://www.paintplus.co.nz/

Whats going on in americia and canada, Are waterbased enamels moving ahead??? It really is a great up from acrylic :yes::yes:, Well what we have anyway.


----------



## M T Buckets Painting

Caz, you say that waterbased enamels are the future. I agree. I am becoming quite partial to the acrylic alkyd enamels. The encapsulated alkyds. Basically they are a combination of oil and water. When the waterborne element evaporates or dries it leaves behind the alkyd. They brush like an oil enamel. Where I am at, we can no longer buy oil enamel by the gallon. Some kind of green laws. We can buy as much oil primer as we want. Makes no sense to me. If I want oil enamel I have to drive 60 miles to the state of Missouri to get it. That is in part why I have come to use the modified acrylics.


----------



## cazna

Hi MT
Our Oil based alkyds seem to have takin a backward step, They have taken out some of the things that made them good back in the day, Like lead etc. Its not what it was at all, Waterbased enamels are not all the same here, Dulux is not very good, Hard to brush and spray, But the resene is quite a different product, Its early days for those products yet i guess but i think its very exciting, It has the potental to help some of the product finishing problems we have at present. I personally use it if i can and highly recommend it, harder wearing, Better leveling, Less brush/roller,spray marks.

Im building myself a house this year and im so F ing over painted lifeless walls i think im going wallpaper it, There are some fantastic wallpapers out now, Shame they dont make a comeback, It would solve a lot of the crap we have to deal with now, I mean, For F sake, We have to make surfaces perfectly smooth and defect free, NO other surface in the world, Be it man made or natural is like that or gets picked on as much as our work does yet thats what we are expected to create with wood, steel, paper, and plaster with tools. Has anyone realised thats actually impossable?? All we can really do at the end of the day is use every trick in the book we can learn to disguise things. Grumpy rant over now :whistling2:


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

Funny thing about paint,,,, the old school guys just love them some oil,,,,,

Ask yourself this,,,,What eats oil,,,, MOLD,,,,ya do know its linseed don't ya???,, an organic oil????

Two house next to each-other,,,, ones exterior painted with oil,, the other with latex,,,,, who's gonna mold????????

I know I'm an old stupid drunk *******,,,, but the truth will stand when the worlds on fire


----------



## Mudshark

Sounds like....


----------



## M T Buckets Painting

At Paint Talk, they talk about drywall. Why can't we talk about paint at Drywall Talk? Just kidding, we got a little off track. 
I only lurk at Paint Talk. Some of the discussions are quite interesting but, alot of them seem particularly boring to me most of the time. I like how they like to rip into the Capt and 2buck. Those are the threads that are on the interesting side.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

Mudshark said:


> Sounds like....


 Yeah it does,,,, but lets not get like PT,,, and dismiss anything thats paint realted !!!!

Ya know,,, If a drywaller says ANYTHING on PT,,, its discounted

Paint follows drywall,,,,,, IF you understand them both,,, you have an advantage,,,don't ya??????


----------



## moore

I like this thread.. I am no painter by no means!! ,,,,But it seems you guys know more about what to,,and what not to use than most painters I've seen.. I have always pushed for a good primer before paint . I Tell g/c the start of a good paint job Is the prime coat.. ,,,,BUT,,,After I get through bustin my ass to give them a decent finish job the last thing I could care about is who the painter Is ...Give me my money !!! I did my part..


----------



## Mudshark

:thumbup1: Yeah you guys that know something about paint just keep going on, I dont know that much about it so can only observe and learn something. I do know that painters should not skimp on primer though.


----------



## gazman

I am like you Mudshark I dont have much knowledge about paint. But I do know that most of our large volume builders will only pay for two coats of paint. So that means NO PRIMER, and then they get real picky about things. And then the paint that they use is watered down that much it is more like Chinese spit than paint:furious:


----------



## Mudshark

gazman said:


> I am like you Mudshark I dont have much knowledge about paint. But I do know that most of our large volume builders will only pay for two coats of paint. So that means NO PRIMER, and then they get real picky about things. And then the paint that they use is watered down that much it is more like Chinese spit than paint:furious:


I know what you mean about the watered down primer - seems the bigger the project the thinner the primer.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Funny thing about paint,,,, the old school guys just love them some oil,,,,,
> 
> Ask yourself this,,,,What eats oil,,,, MOLD,,,,ya do know its linseed don't ya???,, an organic oil????
> 
> Two house next to each-other,,,, ones exterior painted with oil,, the other with latex,,,,, who's gonna mold????????
> 
> I know I'm an old stupid drunk *******,,,, but the truth will stand when the worlds on fire


It's true, They won't allow oil based paint in houses no more. The only ones who argue for it, are home owners.

Yes were talking paint, but tapers should know some basics on it, to know how to fight with dem dare painters. I agree with what MT is saying, most problems come from the walls not being properly primed. The big argument were getting lately, is some painters use flat paint to prime, well others use primer. To me, the flat is B.S.

Sounds to me what kiwiman had, is the classic case of H.O. painting their own place. That's why if I do a job for a H.O. (which is rare) I offer to prime, and if I can't prime it, I explain why they need a good primer. I get it through their heads that a good tape job works in conjunction with a good 1st coat of paint....... period:yes::furious:


----------



## SlimPickins

cazna said:


> Hi MT
> Our Oil based alkyds seem to have takin a backward step, They have taken out some of the things that made them good back in the day, Like lead etc. Its not what it was at all, Waterbased enamels are not all the same here, Dulux is not very good, Hard to brush and spray, But the resene is quite a different product, Its early days for those products yet i guess but i think its very exciting, It has the potental to help some of the product finishing problems we have at present. I personally use it if i can and highly recommend it, harder wearing, Better leveling, Less brush/roller,spray marks.
> 
> Im building myself a house this year and im so F ing over painted lifeless walls i think im going wallpaper it, There are some fantastic wallpapers out now, Shame they dont make a comeback, It would solve a lot of the crap we have to deal with now, I mean, For F sake, We have to make surfaces perfectly smooth and defect free, NO other surface in the world, Be it man made or natural is like that or gets picked on as much as our work does yet thats what we are expected to create with wood, steel, paper, and plaster with tools. Has anyone realised thats actually impossable?? All we can really do at the end of the day is use every trick in the book we can learn to disguise things. Grumpy rant over now :whistling2:


Caz, you should look into clay plasters, no paint required, Level 2 before application of the clay, 50 year lifespan, 100% green, and drop-dead gorgeous to look at. The Japanese have some good ones, using dark tones and bits of straw, and there's American Clay also. Do you guys have anything like that over there? It's also good for humidity regulation.


----------



## alltex

Mudshark said:


> Sorry alltex but the original question was edge showing after paint, not after texture. :yes:


Sorry i didn,t realise it was smoothwall.i would just total skimm next time,or level 5 if thats what its colled now.


----------



## McDusty

pro painter should:

- use Synko T.I.P.S (not sure the USA equal) primer, bee's knees. it's almost like 20% mud, 80% primer. when you sand it, there is more dust than you would expect from a primer alone. 
- back-roll everything, always
- sand between all coats
- not go excessive when humidity levels are high. fans and air movement is key in that situation. 

i just spent last week helping out a painter, that's the system we followed and it looks awesome in there.


----------



## smisner50s

McDusty said:


> pro painter should:
> 
> - use Synko T.I.P.S (not sure the USA equal) primer, bee's knees. it's almost like 20% mud, 80% primer. when you sand it, there is more dust than you would expect from a primer alone.
> - back-roll everything, always
> - sand between all coats
> - not go excessive when humidity levels are high. fans and air movement is key in that situation.
> 
> i just spent last week helping out a painter, that's the system we followed and it looks awesome in there.


 i agree....except with backrolling everything...backrollling is important ..but not every situation requires a backroll....if you sprayed more (not ment to be rude)you would understand


----------



## Capt-sheetrock

smisner50s said:


> i agree....except with backrolling everything...backrollling is important ..but not every situation requires a backroll....if you sprayed more (not ment to be rude)you would understand


 I cross hatch my ceilings,,,, but I back roll ALL walls


----------



## smisner50s

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I cross hatch my ceilings,,,, but I back roll ALL walls


 I do the same on lids...if im spraying a level5 surficer i dont back roll because they are ment to self level if you back roll it puts to much texture.reguilar primer no back roll because the dirt will sand out easier.sand down. spray finish paint then backroll so down the road the touch up of homeowner or whoever will melt in nicer.powerroll 2nd coat of finish...but if the surface gets left primer than it gets backrolled.with no sanding ..see thats what im saying not every situation requires backrolling...and in some situations it will do more harm than good.


----------



## Mudstar

All this post and no one here knows why this happens Your all blaming others, blaming product but no one said anything about choosing the proper nap for the paint used. Once the roller loses its nap toss it!

You guys shock me..... get back to work you slacker!


----------



## MUDBONE

cazna said:


> Well isnt that interesting, When rolling it can be surprising how much (Pull) the roller sleeve can have to the wall, Like the roller sticks and sucks to the wall, So when you roll it can pull on the wall, Like back rolling to spread out the dust etc, So, If the edge get a bit soft or dissolved and the rollers pulling on this area then could it remove the fine plaster edge, Hence, Showing and edge in the finished wall???? If your slow on the roller or its a warm day and the paint starts to set up then it gets stickier and would pull on the wall more.
> 
> I could be wrong......and maybe i am :thumbup:


i believe you hit the drywall nail on the head here.i notice this happening cause i do alot of skimcoating and painting and the mud does get soft and has a tendency to pull and i can see it doing this where the paper and mud edge meet.especially if overworked or not allowing proper curing time between coats. good thoughts and points.


----------



## MUDBONE

moore said:


> I like this thread.. I am no painter by no means!! ,,,,But it seems you guys know more about what to,,and what not to use than most painters I've seen.. I have always pushed for a good primer before paint . I Tell g/c the start of a good paint job Is the prime coat.. ,,,,BUT,,,After I get through bustin my ass to give them a decent finish job the last thing I could care about is who the painter Is ...Give me my money !!! I did my part..


Your first name isnt Benjamin is it?


----------



## cazna

MUDBONE said:


> Your first name isnt Benjamin is it?


We had benjamin moore paint here for while, it was junk, really junk, its gone now, there were a few stores, and tv ads, all gone, good riddince too. Maybe it was made here under licence or something???? It honestly was the worst, thinnest hopeless covering stuff, And it didnt last long on exteriors with our climates.


----------



## cazna

SlimPickins said:


> Caz, you should look into clay plasters, no paint required, Level 2 before application of the clay, 50 year lifespan, 100% green, and drop-dead gorgeous to look at. The Japanese have some good ones, using dark tones and bits of straw, and there's American Clay also. Do you guys have anything like that over there? It's also good for humidity regulation.


 
Never heard of that one Slim, Sound interesting though, We are a bit limited with our knowledge here, Thats why im such a dumb arse :yes:


----------



## SlimPickins

cazna said:


> Never heard of that one Slim, Sound interesting though, We are a bit limited with our knowledge here, Thats why im such a dumb arse :yes:


:no: Do some web research, the stuff is really great. A little expensive, but then again, a motivated person could make their own for _pennies on the dollar._ Here, American Clay is expensive for both product and application yes, and it's considered to be a luxury finish. At least, until you decide to factor in the fact that it doesn't need to be painted. Ever. And then it's cheaper. Plus, it contributes to a much healthier living environment.


----------



## fenez

cazna said:


> We had benjamin moore paint here for while, it was junk, really junk, its gone now, there were a few stores, and tv ads, all gone, good riddince too. Maybe it was made here under licence or something???? It honestly was the worst, thinnest hopeless covering stuff, And it didnt last long on exteriors with our climates.


what difference from place to place, here in NY if you don't use benjamin moore or sherwin williams you don't get the job, its considered the best paint here. Contractors and home owners ask if you use benjamin moore just to make sure they are getting it. I have to say I have never had any issues with it.


----------



## smisner50s

fenez said:


> what difference from place to place, here in NY if you don't use benjamin moore or sherwin williams you don't get the job, its considered the best paint here. Contractors and home owners ask if you use benjamin moore just to make sure they are getting it. I have to say I have never had any issues with it.


S.w.p. all the way


----------



## wnybassman

Sherwin Williams here if we can too.


----------



## Mudshark

fenez said:


> what difference from place to place, here in NY if you don't use benjamin moore or sherwin williams you don't get the job, its considered the best paint here. Contractors and home owners ask if you use benjamin moore just to make sure they are getting it. I have to say I have never had any issues with it.


I think it must be a different product that Benjamin Moore sells in New Zealand. Around here the BM is a bit more pricey but considered one of the better paints.


----------



## cazna

Mudshark said:


> I think it must be a different product that Benjamin Moore sells in New Zealand. Around here the BM is a bit more pricey but considered one of the better paints.


I wasnt Joking when i said it was junk, NO ONE liked it, Wouldnt cover, Thin as piss, We have a TV show here called Fair go, You can contact them if you get ripped off, Or rubbish products etc, They will have a go at the people or product concerned and try and sort things out or expose conmen. Ben moore made that show on and exterior painted house, It failed, Many did.

Products may be called the same but if they a made under license if different places with different materials then they can be different, Go buy a Rolex or Nikes in asia and see what you get.

Made in NZ paint suits us for our climates, I think we have one of the highest skin cancer and UV light in the world, Not sure why that is, Our Ozone could be thinner or our skys are clearer so when the sun comes out you burn fast, and its hard on paint, I know this is exterior and we are talking interior but there inside paints were awful as well, So thinned out it was a joke, They were here but the public didnt like it so now its only a few stores in the main centres and no more tv ads.

Never seen any SW paint here, Our dulux and resene and wattyl (What ill) are the main brands and make BM look silly.

Sorry to go off topic painter haters. :whistling2:


----------



## chris

cazna said:


> I wasnt Joking when i said it was junk, NO ONE liked it, Wouldnt cover, Thin as piss, We have a TV show here called Fair go, You can contact them if you get ripped off, Or rubbish products etc, They will have a go at the people or product concerned and try and sort things out or expose conmen. Ben moore made that show on and exterior painted house, It failed, Many did.
> 
> Products may be called the same but if they a made under license if different places with different materials then they can be different, Go buy a Rolex or Nikes in asia and see what you get.
> 
> Made in NZ paint suits us for our climates, I think we have one of the highest skin cancer and UV light in the world, Not sure why that is, Our Ozone could be thinner or our skys are clearer so when the sun comes out you burn fast, and its hard on paint, I know this is exterior and we are talking interior but there inside paints were awful as well, So thinned out it was a joke, They were here but the public didnt like it so now its only a few stores in the main centres and no more tv ads.
> 
> Never seen any SW paint here, Our dulux and resene and wattyl (What ill) are the main brands and make BM look silly.
> 
> Sorry to go off topic painter haters. :whistling2:


Kelly Moore is good paint


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## VANMAN

2buckcanuck said:


> It's true, They won't allow oil based paint in houses no more. The only ones who argue for it, are home owners.
> 
> Yes were talking paint, but tapers should know some basics on it, to know how to fight with dem dare painters. I agree with what MT is saying, most problems come from the walls not being properly primed. The big argument were getting lately, is some painters use flat paint to prime, well others use primer. To me, the flat is B.S.
> 
> Sounds to me what kiwiman had, is the classic case of H.O. painting their own place. That's why if I do a job for a H.O. (which is rare) I offer to prime, and if I can't prime it, I explain why they need a good primer. I get it through their heads that a good tape job works in conjunction with a good 1st coat of paint....... period:yes::furious:


 Over here its 2 coats of paint and thats it!! No primer no1 would pay for it!! Never had much of a problem with joints showing:thumbup:


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## fenez

VANMAN said:


> Over here its 2 coats of paint and thats it!! No primer no1 would pay for it!! Never had much of a problem with joints showing:thumbup:


have you tried some of the self priming paints? I have used a few and was impressed.


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## 2buckcanuck

VANMAN said:


> Over here its 2 coats of paint and thats it!! No primer no1 would pay for it!! Never had much of a problem with joints showing:thumbup:


I guess gods evil little flash light in the sky, must not shine on Scotland:blink:


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## Capt-sheetrock

I prefer Glidden over SW,,,and I agree that BM is over rated and over priced.


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## Bazooka-Joe

cazna said:


> We had benjamin moore paint here for while, it was junk, really junk, its gone now, there were a few stores, and tv ads, all gone, good riddince too. Maybe it was made here under licence or something???? It honestly was the worst, thinnest hopeless covering stuff, And it didnt last long on exteriors with our climates.



STRANGE Caz, BM paint we use is good, nice creamey coverage, your franchise owner musta knocked it down


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## VANMAN

2buckcanuck said:


> I guess gods evil little flash light in the sky, must not shine on Scotland:blink:


 Not very often!!!!


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## Bazooka-Joe

carpentaper said:


> back to the original question. what are the possibilities that the finest part of the feathered edge is dissolved by the primer and sort of levels out while the part that is not dissolved by the time the sealer dries ends up showing an edge. so it might not be a case of the mud swelling so much as a problem of it dissolving.


If there's a problem I see you'll solve it and the primer dissolves it....:thumbsup:


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## Bazooka-Joe

wnybassman said:


> Sherwin Williams here if we can too.


Shirley willy makes some junk automoto paint let me tell ya


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## VANMAN

fenez said:


> have you tried some of the self priming paints? I have used a few and was impressed.


 No Lad i gave up the roller and brush years ago! Can still roll like a madman but cuttin in is slow and painfull Dont miss it at all!


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## boco

I do remember Gliddin having a promotion on there self priming paint but I didnt try it. I was thinking about possibly using it in a spec house but was kinda pricey. $22 bucks a gallon compared to Hide hide primer $8 per Gal and diamond 350 15.99 per Gal. That and i was wondering if it sands easy after 1st coat?


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## cdwoodcox

I am experiencing this now. I know it was sanded properly I even showed the g/c a room with spotlight he said yeah looks good. Nothing more you can do, but after p/p looks like sh**. seams only weird. 
I even posted this topic over at paint talk to get a painters perspective on it. We'll see how that goes.
Anyone else have any additional thoughts on this.


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## 2buckcanuck

cdwoodcox said:


> I am experiencing this now. I know it was sanded properly I even showed the g/c a room with spotlight he said yeah looks good. Nothing more you can do, but after p/p looks like sh**. seams only weird.
> I even posted this topic over at paint talk to get a painters perspective on it. We'll see how that goes.
> Anyone else have any additional thoughts on this.


You want us to read through 8 pages of post again

maybe you can refresh our memories with the top answers.

But if I were to guess some.........

Bad primer

Watered down primer. (made sheets swell)

Rock it self was damp

Long shot but, not all rock is created equal (paper quality) painters here swear by the CGC/usg board.

Bad blades on your boxes.

Can you add the rest of the answers CD, from this thread :yes:


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## Kiwiman

cdwoodcox said:


> I am experiencing this now. I know it was sanded properly I even showed the g/c a room with spotlight he said yeah looks good. Nothing more you can do, but after p/p looks like sh**. seams only weird.
> I even posted this topic over at paint talk to get a painters perspective on it. We'll see how that goes.
> Anyone else have any additional thoughts on this.


After talking about it on DWT and to other guy's, I'm reasonably sure it's the edge of the topcoat dissolving (only fractionally) from wet paint sealer/primer, it's where the edge of the boxed topcoat gets too close to the edge of the 2nd coat, and it's the edge of the 2nd coat that is showing after paint, next job you do try getting a wet sponge and touching the edge of the sanded topcoat and see what happens then you'll know what I mean, or even try a spray bottle and mist some water on.


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## chris

show a pic or short vid. My guess is watery paint just barely runnin down wall and collecting on seam. Is it on lids also?


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## harvey randall

*edges*

you guys are everyone right, depending on circumstance. very few times in the season, that every thing come together for that one perfect job. and every one on this sight has that vision-memory in mind. sigurd utah-(usg plant) was running trucks down here in a few hours, still-hot to the touch in the dead of winter. finish mud put in tape boxes or more likely tape mud posted as finish, gypsum with air mixed in to form cavities to use and haul lighter loads and no plant q c, cause the buisness model changed. rock not in quality control for temp and moisture, mud freeze and still comes in on open flat beds so it can go through the warm up in retailers shops. recirculated newspaper that is now the face paper on rock- when the sub sub perveyer bought that last batch of face paper pulp was it undiluted, cant sand the edge off, if it lays lower then the face in air bubble, if you do now thats when the fray begins in so many way,-this list like your own goes on and on.-because it is a multifaceted universe this wonderful world of (two jobs) hang and tape. we hangers and tapers are in a symbiotic relationship- to bad they try to pay us as if we are one. but that not being the subject at hand- this is now my favorite bar. we used to sit on a mud box or bucket, and talk about all the beer and the women. then at the bar we talked about all the rock we could hang and the tape we could get over. now i tune in here and sip my cups and im happy as a lark. thanks fellas. harve


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## moore

And..that's Certainteeds problem ..there not lettin the rock cure before they send it out of the factory. When that hot rock hits cold air it shrinks? causing ripples on the field and high shoulders? That's been my quess from the start. ,,,but I could [again] be wrong.:yes:


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## harvey randall

*high shoulders*

you are aware, and damb smart. in agreement the ripples makes sence. but the high shoulders also make sence. the half inch or 5/8 still cureing, runs to the outside of the board-the recess, being thinner, is already cooler and set. the pudge got nowhere to go but to the top of the ridge and then the build up and the cooling and the buildup and the coolin. that-vicious circle routine, aint it great. the sad part of the story is, they know. and let us pick up the slack and wonder, like children. take care pal. harve.:thumbsup:


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## Stopper

I think I know what you mean Kiwiman, others are probably right with the L5 thing BUT, If painters put a decent coat of sealer on and not a super thin coat then it would solve a lot of problems like this. The Sealer is the most important coat of paint that goes on the wall I reckon. 
If its too thin or not sanded properly then it doesn't matter how perfect your finish it will have problems under critical light


I thought Ultraline drywall was supposed to be the answer to Skimcoating? I hardly ever see the stuff...


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## Kiwiman

Stopper said:


> I think I know what you mean Kiwiman, others are probably right with the L5 thing BUT, If painters put a decent coat of sealer on and not a super thin coat then it would solve a lot of problems like this. The Sealer is the most important coat of paint that goes on the wall I reckon.
> If its too thin or not sanded properly then it doesn't matter how perfect your finish it will have problems under critical light
> 
> 
> I thought Ultraline drywall was supposed to be the answer to Skimcoating? I hardly ever see the stuff...


I totally agree about the sealer, and maybe the watered down sealer helps disolve the mud more.
Come to think of it I don't see the ultraline used much now either.


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## cazna

Kiwiman said:


> I totally agree about the sealer, and maybe the watered down sealer helps disolve the mud more.
> Come to think of it I don't see the ultraline used much now either.


 
Ultraline makes f all difference, If i paint, It get bombed with sealer, That covers everything and makes it the same, Ultraline costs more, So if its hit like that then its a waste of money. I see it here a bit.


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## Stopper

cazna said:


> Ultraline makes f all difference, If i paint, It get bombed with sealer, That covers everything and makes it the same, Ultraline costs more, So if its hit like that then its a waste of money. I see it here a bit.


 Thats right, if the boards sealed properly then the smooth face paper is redundant. Its a bit like that other board no one uses called noiseline.


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