# Edges after crossing butts



## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

Hi guys, just found the site today and did some reading. Cool place. I'm like many of you here, self employed always on the lookout to improve my techniques and overall finished product. I've got a pretty good reputation in the town where I work (in Ontario) but decided to look into some of the issues I see on occasion.

I'm mostly self taught, use North Star tools (including bazooka). 

I just read a thread about seeing edges once a surface is painted...sometimes and sometimes not. Well, I have the same problem when I cross my butts with the box on the last coat. I can almost never sand that ridge out. Just got a call back to try and fix cause the ridge is by a light and very noticeable. Thing is, I knew it was gonna show. Yet sometimes, the ridge sands out...I have come to the conclusion it's how I'm mixing my mud...anyone here seen this problem? Am I missing the boat on this? I use all purpose Machine Mud for all coats including tape.

I have found that if I hand bomb the seam instead the ridge is less noticeable. 

Thanks,


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Drop the machine mud, that type of mud causes too many issues. One it takes too long to dry, it's a very soft mud, and there are too many issue with it after painting it, like mud flaking off etc..... I find hand tapers prefer the MM, more than machine tapers.

But you are on the right coarse by using AP mud for all applications. Maybe check out the pro rock line of muds, there's the yellow box for laying tapes (more glue in mud and less water required for mixing) Then there's the orange box (2kote) and the blue box which is The best mud in the joint. If you prefer the cgc line (usg) of muds, try the red and white box AP mud. Some applications with this mud cause too much porosity, but that's where the Machine mud can come back into play. Throw one or 2 scoops of MM into the cgc red, and it cuts out the porosity.

Also, where the butts meet the flats, it becomes a area where you constantly touch into, which is no biggy. But still I say it's your choice of muds. Machine mud is just too dam soft. just brushing your hand across that mud will screw it up, so now imagine when you run machines at it's intersecting points. Thats why your getting better results when coating by hand, Your hand work will float over intersecting points, not cut into it.

So which part of the province do you live in. The province with the greatest tapers and has Canada's hockey team. The Toronto Maple Leafs. Not those lowly Vancouver Canucks, that Mudshark cheers for:whistling2:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Yep, it's the mud. You'd need to use softer mud on consecutive coats, then you could sand off the softest layer on top. We have the same issue with our lightweight muds.


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks for the input...problem I have is the two hardware stores near where I live (now just outside North Bay, ON) only carry MM and CGC (light green box). The CGC stuff is almost twice as heavy and I find it doesn't apply as well. 

I used to live in Thunder Bay where I used the pro roc and synco line...yellow and blue...and come to think of it, I don't recall having these issues.

Might be time to go back to the drawing board! 

Anyhow, thanks for the input again...and go Juniors!


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

You talk about "softer" mud...can you elaborate on this?


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

getplastered said:


> Thanks for the input...problem I have is the two hardware stores near where I live (now just outside North Bay, ON) only carry MM and CGC (light green box). The CGC stuff is almost twice as heavy and I find it doesn't apply as well.
> 
> I used to live in Thunder Bay where I used the pro roc and synco line...yellow and blue...and come to think of it, I don't recall having these issues.
> 
> ...


Try mixing the 2
Yes the green is a heavy mud, Too dam heavy, But it is good for laying tape and installing paper bead, not to good for coating though

Try mixing the 2 muds together, make them a half and half mix, for coating stuff. It will "kind of" give you the cgc red formula.

Or ask your supply house to carry some red, since their getting the green and MM from cgc already:thumbsup:


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

Good call on asking my supplier to stock more variety of cgc product...I'll certainly inquire.

So what mud is a good "soft" mud for third coating or crossing seems? Cause I have the same problem if I touch up over a coated seam...when I sand it, you see where I applied the touch up! I started only touching up after it's been primed...then no issues.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

getplastered said:


> Good call on asking my supplier to stock more variety of cgc product...I'll certainly inquire.
> 
> So what mud is a good "soft" mud for third coating or crossing seems? Cause I have the same problem if I touch up over a coated seam...when I sand it, you see where I applied the touch up! I started only touching up after it's been primed...then no issues.


Just use the same mud for all, don't use any topping muds, they cause you more trouble than their worth.

Example, say I use cgc red mud, and I put 2 timmy cups (x large) into my mud mix to run flats and butts, then for touch ups I will use the same type mud mixture, not taping mud, or angle mud. Just adding certain amounts of water to your mud will change their sanding properties..... a bit

So using cgc red, then going over top with their lite weight blue muds, creates a difference in how they sand out. Another example is going with a hotmud on 1st coat bead, then coating with any AP mud. If any hotmud is exposed through the 2nd coat of AP mud, then good luck at sanding it out. Same principle applies to switching up with AP and lite weight muds

Also, don't forget sanding grits make a difference too. 180 is almost too rough for machine mud, but not gritty enough for cgc red. 150 grit will scratch the hell out of machine mud, well sanding out cgc red fine

I personally like the 2 kote, but you half to hit edges with 120, then buff with 180, leaves no lines at all:yes:


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

I figured it boiled down to water...I never really pay attention to how much I put in...I add until it's to my desired consistency cause not all boxes of mud come out the same I find.

So adding less water for last coat is better?


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

well I finally got one on the ole 2buck, first of all soft mud is the way to go and as we all know and now you know 2 buck and his son 2bjr use 120 grit to sand their show, now I go soft mud as soft as I can get, when you run Butts where is the edge in the middle? or sides, anyway you get better blend into flats if your flat mud is a itty bit wet just a hair, so you can run into it and blends nice, Always pay attention to if your blade is set right, your always better to run butts by hand last coat you will see the difference



FINAL but not least and pay attention 120-2-buck all my paper is for fine sand, 180 wipes nails for a few walls and then sand everything, my sanding blocks are so fine, make me look fine...

Yes Yes I know 120-2-buck that's how it's done


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

Maybe I'm not explaining this the best way...what I do; last coat my butts, once dry I cross with the box. The entire point where the box crosses the butt leave a nasty edge or ridge when I get to sanding. However, sometimes it's worse than others. 
I realize that if I blend the butt into the flat, problem solved but when you're one guy that can be time consuming.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

getplastered said:


> Maybe I'm not explaining this the best way...what I do; last coat my butts, once dry I cross with the box. The entire point where the box crosses the butt leave a nasty edge or ridge when I get to sanding. However, sometimes it's worse than others.
> I realize that if I blend the butt into the flat, problem solved but when you're one guy that can be time consuming.


there is your answer, what is less time consuming flashing em by hand or running blend with your last coat on nails?

I don't know any mud that you won't have to givver a shot after the blade runs into it mind you depends if you can sand it out to, there is over blade'n to, blade is set just right then your ok, those guys can have there hard mud and die at the end of the day for the weight they carry.....


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

getplastered said:


> Maybe I'm not explaining this the best way...what I do; last coat my butts, once dry I cross with the box. The entire point where the box crosses the butt leave a nasty edge or ridge when I get to sanding. However, sometimes it's worse than others.
> I realize that if I blend the butt into the flat, problem solved but when you're one guy that can be time consuming.


Flats 1st, then final coat (skim) butts last, up to the middle of the flat, not the top of the flat, nor the bottom, but to the middle.

I know it's time consuming being one guy, put being sent back is more time consuming, I go ballistic if I get sent back. Never pass over a house till it is done to your satisfaction. Look after yourself 1st

GC are more prone to rehire someone who took longer and did a good job, than someone who gets sent back to fix:yes:


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

It's not so much a ridge from the blade, because I see the same problem when I touch up too. It's the top mud sets harder than that beneath it, becoming near unsandable. The more I sand the more of a mess I make. And like I said earlier, most times I get it but sometimes not. I should take a picture tomorrow when I go back and touch it up...
When you say "blend" you mean blend the intersecting seems while both wet right? Just want to make sure I'm on the same page>>


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Flats 1st, then final coat (skim) butts last, up to the middle of the flat, not the top of the flat, nor the bottom, but to the middle.
> 
> I know it's time consuming being one guy, put being sent back is more time consuming, I go ballistic if I get sent back. Never pass over a house till it is done to your satisfaction. Look after yourself 1st
> 
> GC are more prone to rehire someone who took longer and did a good job, than someone who gets sent back to fix:yes:


I know it's time consuming either way...but it's like I said, sometimes it's not noticeable. It's too bad, cause aside from this small issue, the work is nice. It's driving me crazy.

So you coat your butts last? It would be sooo much easier if I could just go work with some of you guys...this typing is for the birds. I gotta go skate. Back later.

Thanks for the input!


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Flats 1st, then final coat (skim) butts last, up to the middle of the flat, not the top of the flat, nor the bottom, but to the middle.
> 
> I know it's time consuming being one guy, put being sent back is more time consuming, I go ballistic if I get sent back. Never pass over a house till it is done to your satisfaction. Look after yourself 1st
> 
> GC are more prone to rehire someone who took longer and did a good job, than someone who gets sent back to fix:yes:



worked for a company for years would not let it go half assed, even told the owner a few time no I aint doing it half assed everytime he just closed his mouth and smiled, I was in the top 3 Tapers, when work was slow, I worked right through, there was always work for me, they told me they had a Company coat made for me


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> there is your answer, what is less time consuming flashing em by hand or running blend with your last coat on nails?
> 
> I don't know any mud that you won't have to givver a shot after the blade runs into it mind you depends if you can sand it out to, there is over blade'n to, blade is set just right then your ok, those guys can have there hard mud and die at the end of the day for the weight they carry.....












it's called the Goldilocks theory, muds not too hard, or too soft, it's just perfect.

but in all reality, working for a DWC, you never know what mud you will get, one day your going to one house, then the next day they change their mind, sending you to a house where some other taper has ordered the mud they like. So I know how to work with multiply brands, well you only know how to work with one


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

I have had same issues in the past with Usage plus 3. I even had usg Rep come look at problem.
same mud used both coats they didn't have an answer but said they have had other complaints of same thing. As far as touchups try adding a little chalk to your touchup mud it will change it enough it should sand out. Do you have same thing on bead and angles also or just butts.


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

I also carry a new sponge when sanding just for that.you should be able to tell when it's happening run a new sponge over it you may get a few lines be sure to run sponge with butt and those lines should fill in when prime and paint are rolled on.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> it's called the Goldilocks theory, muds not too hard, or too soft, it's just perfect.
> 
> but in all reality, working for a DWC, you never know what mud you will get, one day your going to one house, then the next day they change their mind, sending you to a house where some other taper has ordered the mud they like. So I know how to work with multiply brands, well you only know how to work with one













sounds like 2buck is on day 6 of a five day bender


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> sounds like 2buck is on day 6 of a five day bender


 I with 2buck on this one. When your sponge sanding lightwieght mud, your fingernail will scatch it to the point that it has to be touched up.

Lightwieght mud sucks little green cricket deeks


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Have never used the mud u speak of so cant really give good input other than when going thru butts with box has given me troubles in the past. We go thru ALL butts by hand then Sand. Could also be dirty end of the job water being used. Fresh water,touchup butts by hand and sand. All I use is lite weight and dont have that problem unless it didnt get sanded


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I with 2buck on this one. When your sponge sanding lightwieght mud, your fingernail will scatch it to the point that it has to be touched up.
> 
> Lightwieght mud sucks little green cricket deeks


thats kool really if ya do what ya do and happy, really I love light mud like I said fast angle sand and nothing for the rest, fine tuned paper to sponges,

everyone has there own techniUE,

2BUCK i AM OF AGE TO HAVE WORKED WITH THAT HARD MUD FROM WAY BACK SO YEAH i CAN RUN ALL OF IT EXCEPT ALL PURPOSE


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

don't take that the wrong way 2-Buck I am just f'n around


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

see in Kiwi'a thread and this one the reason I use light mud is because paint usually eats any ridge, I don't leave any when sanding but it is like how fenez said in one thread ya thought it looked perfect and.... thats where soft mud comes in...


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Light weight mixed with a/p-poor bond
Light weight by itself -poor bond
sanding light weight mud Is like sanding a marshmallow..:blink:


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

moore said:


> Light weight mixed with a/p-poor bond
> Light weight by itself -poor bond
> sanding light weight mud Is like sanding a marshmallow..:blink:


don't mention marshmallows Slim might have a flash-Back


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

chris said:


> Have never used the mud u speak of so cant really give good input other than when going thru butts with box has given me troubles in the past. We go thru ALL butts by hand then Sand. Could also be dirty end of the job water being used. Fresh water,touchup butts by hand and sand. All I use is lite weight and dont have that problem unless it didnt get sanded


yeah I don't waste any time guess'n if it is going through I do em 3 and that's it hand wipe on 3

all comes to preference on what you use:blink:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Speaking of muds...I have 2 half buckets of black top in my shed frozen solid ..1 full bucket of USG frozen solid .. but I have 1 bucket of lowes easy sand with not even a cryst showing ..ya know me I'll go take a pic if ya want...no chit.. three nights straight in the low teens .. I can go out there and pull off the top ,,and start spotting screws..:yes:


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

chris said:


> Have never used the mud u speak of so cant really give good input other than when going thru butts with box has given me troubles in the past. We go thru ALL butts by hand then Sand. Could also be dirty end of the job water being used. Fresh water,touchup butts by hand and sand. All I use is lite weight and dont have that problem unless it didnt get sanded


You know...fresh water may be part of the problem...there hasn't been any water at the last couple jobs so I've been bringing it in...may have dipped a tool or two in my bucket...might explain why it doesn't happen all the time...:blink: I will certainly pay more attention...

Thanks for all the great input!


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

Why do some people say that I need to have light mud as last coat so it sands out, yet the majority of people here say light mud sucks? So if no one is using light mud, why is no one having the same issue as me!? I know I'm beating a dead horse here...


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

getplastered said:


> Why do some people say that I need to have light mud as last coat so it sands out, yet the majority of people here say light mud sucks? So if no one is using light mud, why is no one having the same issue as me!? I know I'm beating a dead horse here...


you anwered yourslef in one post, " I thought it did not look right and it wasn't

In this trade if it is iffy it is not going to fly that simple, do not mix mud with hards and lite, easy to layer, try the different techniques we talked about


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> you anwered yourslef in one post, " I thought it did not look right and it wasn't
> 
> In this trade if it is iffy it is not going to fly that simple, do not mix mud with hards and lite, easy to layer, try the different techniques we talked about


I will for sure try these techniques...was just curious...Hopefully ill be able to post back with some success!


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> don't take that the wrong way 2-Buck I am just f'n around


I know you are

It would be the game of........ if anyone of us on this site , had to work with somebody else from here. There would be some things you would do one guys way, and hope they accept some of your methods too. I would accept using the mud you like, if we had to work together.:thumbsup:

The biggest thing I see tapers fight about if you stick them together, is the angle head combinations that they use. But on the other hand, putting 2 tapers together can be hard, well dry walling is not so bad. One man steps forward and says he is the cutter for that day. Well taping is not as clean cut as that, would half to steal the captains term of "there's more than one way to skin a cat" so they do tend to battle it out more, there has to be one leader.

Just the way it is with taping, we have big egos to fill, since anyone thinks they can do our job, and we face more criticism than most other trades:yes:


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

So true....most underrated trade ever...u could be the best carpenter in the region, but if ur taper sucks, it really doesn't matter...we make miracles happen every week...I know I have...but one stupid line on an entire ceiling...f**k me!


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

getplastered said:


> Why do some people say that I need to have light mud as last coat so it sands out, yet the majority of people here say light mud sucks? So if no one is using light mud, why is no one having the same issue as me!? I know I'm beating a dead horse here...


Seeing as how I'm one of the guys that talked about light mud as a last coat so it sands out, I'll answer your question. But first, let me say that this is NOT a new issue.

A big company I used to work for would tape with taping, top with AP, and finish with topping. Taping has more glue, AP is basically a combination of taping and topping (at least with Beadex light muds) and topping is like ...........marshmallow fluff. Creamy and coats like a dream with little shrinkage. Sanding is heaven..........IF you know how to do it without scratching the hell out of it. If you're crossing off with your box, you're doing two things......putting the same light weight mud over itself, and creating a small compression and edge at the end of your box blade. Your sand paper is going to float over the micro-gap, and not want to sand that compressed edge. Sometimes this can be avoided by using a hand sponge and sanding in a circular motion (so the grit can approach the edge from different angles). You see the same thing with touch-ups where light mud goes over light mud. We call it 'onion skin', where you end up sanding more of the layer beneath than the stuff on top. 'Layering' is another term for it, and on smoothwall jobs it sucks.


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

You're bang on...onion skin! I love it! So true with the mud I use too...like cool whip...aside from those ridges they leave behind it is great to use. But I think these guys are on to something with the water cause it doesn't happen all the time.

I've tried sanding circular and with new pads and sometimes it helps. I always finish with my sponge almost entirely with my light.

I'm thinking clean water and crossing by hand might be the best bet...funny how they say you should never go over the same line twice, but thats a pretty tough thing to do!


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

So how do you avoid this onion skin thing for your touch ups?


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

getplastered said:


> You're bang on...onion skin! I love it! So true with the mud I use too...like cool whip...aside from those ridges they leave behind it is great to use. But I think these guys are on to something with the water cause it doesn't happen all the time.
> 
> I've tried sanding circular and with new pads and sometimes it helps. I always finish with my sponge almost entirely with my light.
> 
> I'm thinking clean water and crossing by hand might be the best bet...funny how they you should never go over the same line twice, but thats a pretty tough thing to do!


It's your mud, trust me, wait till other canucks read that you use machine mud. Sure there's some guys who may use the stuff, but there are certain orders you half to do your work in, when dealing with softer muds. I work for a large DWC, and they will supply any mud you want, till you say Machine mud. They will go 

just too many problems occur down the road with the stuff, Even CD brought up a point, are you sure your angle heads are not cutting into your flats too. but.... if you do angle 1st then flats, you may not have that problem, other way around you might, so again it's about the order of operations with the whip cream muds using machines.

It's not the water.... but then again we are talking Northbay so:jester:


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

getplastered said:


> It's not so much a ridge from the blade, because I see the same problem when I touch up too. It's the top mud sets harder than that beneath it, becoming near unsandable. The more I sand the more of a mess I make. And like I said earlier, most times I get it but sometimes not. I should take a picture tomorrow when I go back and touch it up...
> When you say "blend" you mean blend the intersecting seems while both wet right? Just want to make sure I'm on the same page>>


When you do your touch-ups are you wiping them tight or using a light hand. I noticed a while back that when you wipe a touch-up tight i compresses the mud and makes it harder to sand then the mud under it. Has anyone else noticed this? In the last year I have started putting my touchups on with a lighter hand even if it means i have a bump to sand off. have you ever noticed the way a heavy coat dries on a bead. the mud will be grainy because it has not been compressed but when you wipe tight the mud looks denser and is therefore harder to sand than the mud from the loading coat. Just a theory I have.


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> It's your mud, trust me, wait till other canucks read that you use machine mud. Sure there's some guys who may use the stuff, but there are certain orders you half to do your work in, when dealing with softer muds. I work for a large DWC, and they will supply any mud you want, till you say Machine mud. They will go
> 
> just too many problems occur down the road with the stuff, Even CD brought up a point, are you sure your angle heads are not cutting into your flats too. but.... if you do angle 1st then flats, you may not have that problem, other way around you might, so again it's about the order of operations with the whip cream muds using machines.
> 
> It's not the water.... but then again we are talking Northbay so:jester:


I started doing my angles first because of this problem...! Ok...ok it's not the water! I'm dilliusional....just love my creamy mud! Lol...


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

carpentaper said:


> When you do your touch-ups are you wiping them tight or using a light hand. I noticed a while back that when you wipe a touch-up tight i compresses the mud and makes it harder to sand then the mud under it. Has anyone else noticed this? In the last year I have started putting my touchups on with a lighter hand even if it means i have a bump to sand off. have you ever noticed the way a heavy coat dries on a bead. the mud will be grainy because it has not been compressed but when you wipe tight the mud looks denser and is therefore harder to sand than the mud from the loading coat. Just a theory I have.


 usually tight trying to "squeeze" out that line...


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

getplastered said:


> I started doing my angles first because of this problem...! Ok...ok it's not the water! I'm dilliusional....just love my creamy mud! Lol...


See, you just answered your own question, you switched your system, you went angles 1st then flats. You say in your one post you like to have your butts done 1st, then flats, change the order:yes:

Also, when you run your box, touch into the butt where they meet, then skim out you butts, your coating over your touch in now.

Also, I use to love that machine mud, but there were too many issues when they painted. I know one was the mud would just flake off. most times where the flat met the angle, or where things intersected when using machines. Not knocking soft muds, just that MM


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

SlimPickins said:


> Seeing as how I'm one of the guys that talked about light mud as a last coat so it sands out, I'll answer your question. But first, let me say that this is NOT a new issue.
> 
> A big company I used to work for would tape with taping, top with AP, and finish with topping. Taping has more glue, AP is basically a combination of taping and topping (at least with Beadex light muds) and topping is like ...........marshmallow fluff. Creamy and coats like a dream with little shrinkage. Sanding is heaven..........IF you know how to do it without scratching the hell out of it. If you're crossing off with your box, you're doing two things......putting the same light weight mud over itself, and creating a small compression and edge at the end of your box blade. Your sand paper is going to float over the micro-gap, and not want to sand that compressed edge. Sometimes this can be avoided by using a hand sponge and sanding in a circular motion (so the grit can approach the edge from different angles). You see the same thing with touch-ups where light mud goes over light mud. We call it 'onion skin', where you end up sanding more of the layer beneath than the stuff on top. 'Layering' is another term for it, and on smoothwall jobs it sucks.


i just noticed your post on this compression thing. now i feel silly.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

*Another Ontarable taper*



2buckcanuck said:


> Flats 1st, then final coat (skim) butts last, up to the middle of the flat, not the top of the flat, nor the bottom, but to the middle.:yes:


Catching this thread late. Welcome to DWT getplastered. Even if you are from the land of those loosers, the Toronto Maple Leafs.

I agree with 2buck on the quote above but not him telling you that you are on the right track in using all purpose. Sounds like we have to use what is available in the regions we are in though. Out on this coast, I don't see many pros using all purpose. We use taping mud for taping and applying beads (paper/metal) and finishing mud for everything else and it is often light. Don't see the machinemud out here but it sounds like I would want to avoid it. The tools are nice but you still have to do part of the butts by hand in my opinion.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mudshark said:


> Catching this thread late. Welcome to DWT getplastered. Even if you are from the land of those loosers, the Toronto Maple Leafs.
> 
> I agree with 2buck on the quote above but not him telling you that you are on the right track in using all purpose. Sounds like we have to use what is available in the regions we are in though. Out on this coast, I don't see many pros using all purpose. We use taping mud for taping and applying beads (paper/metal) and finishing mud for everything else and it is often light. Don't see the machinemud out here but it sounds like I would want to avoid it. The tools are nice but you still have to do part of the butts by hand in my opinion.


I know what your saying about the AP mud but...... I think manufactures sometimes throw term"lite" around loosely .

I was arguing with 2bjr a few months ago about the cgc red, I was looking at a box, then noticed they put the LITE term after the all purpose. I remember never seeing that there years ago, but he said it was, I may be wrong butt ???????

So if you get technical, guess most guys are using a LITE all purpose mud. But yes that machine mud is more like a super lite mud, or ultra is another term, it's too fluffy:yes:


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

OMG you went easy on me 2 buck. Yes the term lite seems to be fashionable. They are putting the lite label on beer now as well. Never have seen the mud labelled heavy. Seem we are stuck using what is supplied in our areas. And those Maple Leafs Stanley Cup victories were mostly from before I was born, but at least you got to see the cup.


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## bmitch (Dec 10, 2011)

great forum.first timer. i was running test batches mm while in development stages. been spreading it ever since.just had to learn to adapt to conditions that are always changing in our business.


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## Jason (Feb 27, 2011)

getplastered said:


> Hi guys, just found the site today and did some reading. Cool place. I'm like many of you here, self employed always on the lookout to improve my techniques and overall finished product. I've got a pretty good reputation in the town where I work (in Ontario) but decided to look into some of the issues I see on occasion.
> 
> I'm mostly self taught, use North Star tools (including bazooka).
> 
> ...


Yes, I know what you're saying. It's not the mix or water. It's the mud. As a rule I've noticed worse skinning with heavier weight mud, although +3 was also bad. A heavier grit can help cut through it, as on a brand new sponge, but don't wipe your snags quite so hard and you won't get a stubborn patch. As for the butts, I'd hand finish with a 24" last to the outside of the flat. I prefer hand tools after machines, almost never the other way 'round.

I don't know your MM but if it skins hard I'd look into other muds. AP is a better system than building a joint like a layer cake with different types of mud on the fill imo. I currently use USG Total Lite, although mine is made in Malasia.












carpentaper said:


> When you do your touch-ups are you wiping them tight or using a light hand. I noticed a while back that when you wipe a touch-up tight i compresses the mud and makes it harder to sand then the mud under it. Has anyone else noticed this? In the last year I have started putting my touchups on with a lighter hand even if it means i have a bump to sand off. have you ever noticed the way a heavy coat dries on a bead. the mud will be grainy because it has not been compressed but when you wipe tight the mud looks denser and is therefore harder to sand than the mud from the loading coat. Just a theory I have.


Sho' 'nuff. If you want to win first prize you'd get a good fill on the bead so there's no cupping, presand, and skim with a tight trowel. Final sanding should be almost unnecessary. If you're quality meatballing, as you must on most jobs, just a full but grainy fill sanded with a PC is fine. Not so grainy you're getting pinholes, of course. Blast it with some compressed air after sanding and 500w it if you want to be sure.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

getplastered said:


> So how do you avoid this onion skin thing for your touch ups?


I try to make sure I don't have any! :laughing:


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

From what everybody is suggesting it's obviously the mud...if that's the case I shouldn't need to change my process. Cause technically I would still have the same problem....instead of one line across the butt I'd have two across the flat!
I've got a job to start tomorrow.....going mud shopping! Will let y'all know how this works out!


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

Mudshark said:


> Catching this thread late. Welcome to DWT getplastered. Even if you are from the land of those loosers, the Toronto Maple Leafs.
> 
> I agree with 2buck on the quote above but not him telling you that you are on the right track in using all purpose. Sounds like we have to use what is available in the regions we are in though. Out on this coast, I don't see many pros using all purpose. We use taping mud for taping and applying beads (paper/metal) and finishing mud for everything else and it is often light. Don't see the machinemud out here but it sounds like I would want to avoid it. The tools are nice but you still have to do part of the butts by hand in my opinion.
> 
> ...




Thanks Mudshark....glad to be here! And while I may be from the land of the leafs I'm a Habs fan to the bone...not sure if that will get me banned from here or not!


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

getplastered said:


> Thanks Mudshark....glad to be here! And while I may be from the land of the leafs I'm a Habs fan to the bone...not sure if that will get me banned from here or not!


The Habs are a good choice - I was a fan of theirs back in the days of 6 NHL teams. Guy LaFleur was my hero. Quebec still produces some good players.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

getplastered said:


> You're bang on...onion skin! I love it! So true with the mud I use too...like cool whip...aside from those ridges they leave behind it is great to use. But I think these guys are on to something with the water cause it doesn't happen all the time.
> 
> I've tried sanding circular and with new pads and sometimes it helps. I always finish with my sponge almost entirely with my light.
> 
> I'm thinking clean water and crossing by hand might be the best bet...funny how they say you should never go over the same line twice, but thats a pretty tough thing to do!


Ok fella's I think we got to the bottom of the can here... I make darn sure I use clean water for finish and clean mixer









dunno where you guys come up with this smellow shyte and Onion skin, I don't run tight on last coat just a fine skim over top, when you water down the mud it sands easier sooooo I get it down to a nice handleable box mud bit just a hair more water, I don't have the problems of fighting with marshmellows rolling down the road and banging up against my house like slim does, or any weird onions coming out of my mud

sheesh what is this Dwt bistro facts 

some guys running around Ontario with 120 grit to say

and scary pictures of frozen mud sheesh


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

getplastered said:


> Thanks Mudshark....glad to be here! And while I may be from the land of the leafs I'm a Habs fan to the bone...not sure if that will get me banned from here or not!










getplastered


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

*Go habs go*

Yeah but they won the cup 24 times and had the GREATS like Henri Richard. 
:thumbup1: 

This was 1966 after he scored a sudden death goal in OT to beat out Detroit.

Still think the HABS were the greatest team on ice.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Bazooka-Joe said:


> Ok fella's I think we got to the bottom of the can here... I make darn sure I use clean water for finish and clean mixer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sheesh, I'm married to that whole marshmallow post now, aren't I......


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> getplastered


Ooo...tough crowd...if ur a Habs fan or leaf fan u gotta expect it! Pretty tough to argue with their record this year...fftopic:

Lol


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

So was at my local supplier today...checking out what other mud he has in stock...cgc light green box and red box...I remember some guys saying red was pretty good...am I right? They all claim to be "light" all purpose muds...no tape coat/finish coat system.

Gonna try the red on my latest project see if I "see" a difference...?

I must be drinking...God I'm talkative today....kids are still off on xmas break so I'm working evenings this week...


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Be careful puttin up tape with the all purpouse lite,if its anything like the lite here. We only tape with TAPING lite,ap lite is not so good for taping(our muds)


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

getplastered said:


> So was at my local supplier today...checking out what other mud he has in stock...cgc light green box and red box...I remember some guys saying red was pretty good...am I right? They all claim to be "light" all purpose muds...no tape coat/finish coat system.
> 
> Gonna try the red on my latest project see if I "see" a difference...?
> 
> I must be drinking...God I'm talkative today....kids are still off on xmas break so I'm working evenings this week...


The red is probably the main mud cgc sells. (guessing here) but, it was sold before MM. Most guys I talk to don't mind it, they would say they don't love it, nor do they hate it, it's a good middle of the road mud IMO.

Sands well with 150 grit, buffs well with 180, Sometimes it can give you some porosity (wall eyes etc), but if you want, for CERTAIN applications, that's where you can throw a scoop or 2 of your Machine mud in with your mix, kicks the porosity out of the cgc red:yes:


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

chris said:


> Be careful puttin up tape with the all purpouse lite,if its anything like the lite here. We only tape with TAPING lite,ap lite is not so good (our muds)


Unless the tapers here are heading into the city (20 miles) to get "taping" mud, everyone here has to be using AP to lay tape. I've been here a year and that's all I've been using.

I know with my zook, I get about 10 or so blisters per 100 sheets...is that a lot or standard? 

I think HD sells taping mud...but again, that's a half hour drive and 40 bucks in my gas guzzling dodge...


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> The red is probably the main mud cgc sells. (guessing here) but, it was sold before MM. Most guys I talk to don't mind it, they would say they don't love it, nor do they hate it, it's a good middle of the road mud IMO.
> 
> Sands well with 150 grit, buffs well with 180, Sometimes it can give you some porosity (wall eyes etc), but if you want, for CERTAIN applications, that's where you can throw a scoop or 2 of your Machine mud in with your mix, kicks the porosity out of the cgc red:yes:


I can work with the porosity, I can't keep getting callbacks for those stupid compression ridges...if this red stuff doesn't do the trick I'm buying bulk from HD...:thumbup:


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## bmitch (Dec 10, 2011)

i started taping when these muds were in powder form.taping and topping.35ys. of sanding have taught me how to sand these softer muds.(mm)i sand with piece carpet underlay on sanding pad.won,t sand without it.cross sand through joint finish before coating butt.repeat procedure on finish sand.i can assure you,if mm was,nt giving me top quality finish in the style of homes i work on,id be the first one to tell you.have good day fellas.


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## Sormax (Jan 6, 2012)

*More glue*



getplastered said:


> Hi guys, just found the site today and did some reading. Cool place. I'm like many of you here, self employed always on the lookout to improve my techniques and overall finished product. I've got a pretty good reputation in the town where I work (in Ontario) but decided to look into some of the issues I see on occasion.
> 
> I'm mostly self taught, use North Star tools (including bazooka).
> 
> ...


 More glue always is a good idea


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> The red is probably the main mud cgc sells. (guessing here) but, it was sold before MM. Most guys I talk to don't mind it, they would say they don't love it, nor do they hate it, it's a good middle of the road mud IMO.
> 
> Sands well with 150 grit, buffs well with 180, Sometimes it can give you some porosity (wall eyes etc), but if you want, for CERTAIN applications, that's where you can throw a scoop or 2 of your Machine mud in with your mix, kicks the porosity out of the cgc red:yes:



thought I heard 2buck







say he hate machine mud, ok thats where the 120 grit comes in right


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## getplastered (Jan 3, 2012)

Just wanted to post an update...started using cgc red on second and last coat on last job and I did indeed notice a significant improvement on ridges where I crossed over mud on mud...I did however run my boxes while I know many suggested crossing my butts by hand on last coat.

I start a new shack next Monday and will give that technique a try to see if i can improve further.

Just wanted to say thanks for all your input...:yes:


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