# The best flats and butt joint transitions..



## BShoot (May 27, 2015)

I'm interested in maybe learning a new way to first coat my butt joints and flats together.. I normally coat my flat and then coat both sides of the butt joint wide open.. add some mud and come from the top of the flat and feather it over where the butt/flat meet.. Just looking for a possible easier way to do this..


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

BShoot said:


> I'm interested in maybe learning a new way to first coat my butt joints and flats together.. I normally coat my flat and then coat both sides of the butt joint wide open.. add some mud and come from the top of the flat and feather it over where the butt/flat meet.. Just looking for a possible easier way to do this..


 That sounds OK. Always check the butt joints for what they need. A recessed butt joint does not need to be split out wide open. We almost always run the bands on a wall or ceiling, run a wide blade over the work to clean it up, and then run the butt joints, also following with a wide blade. For smooth wall, we come back after drying and just run the butt joints as needed, band center to band center. When the butts are dry, we come back and finish coat the bands. (band = recessed joint where I am from.)


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

BShoot said:


> I'm interested in maybe learning a new way to first coat my butt joints and flats together.. I normally coat my flat and then coat both sides of the butt joint wide open.. add some mud and come from the top of the flat and feather it over where the butt/flat meet.. Just looking for a possible easier way to do this..


If you use the search on DWT I'm sure you should find many explaining the method they use. 

I'm not the dog that chases he own tail. I just chase beaver tail up here in Canada


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## gopherstateguy (Apr 8, 2012)

I agree with everything Endo said, but like Mudstar I don't chase with a blade. I just touch up intersections later.


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

gopherstateguy said:


> I agree with everything Endo said, but like Mudstar I don't chase with a blade. I just touch up intersections later.


That is fine. I personally dislike touchup. So I always use which ever method leaves the least amount of work to touchup or sand in down the road, done the fastest. Shining a wall with a light after it dries will clue you in to the mess you are leaving to be fixed later. I try not to walk away from a wall at any stage that is ugly, if I can help it.


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Learning to use your brake helps when pulling butt into flat, my nickname used to be "wheels" until I mastered the brake. I dont see how knifing a flat or butt after boxed can help it ??


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## gopherstateguy (Apr 8, 2012)

gopherstateguy said:


> I agree with everything Endo said, but like Mudstar I don't chase with a blade. I just touch up intersections later.


By later, I mean the same day when running screws, hitting 3 ways, etc after boxing has set up a bit.


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## gn87berner (Jan 3, 2016)

I prefer to run flats, bust your butts on open or 1 depending on what it is telling you. Using your brake pull in pretty close. Cross off while wet but set up so you dont get in to the heavier mud. Cross off while wet when running hand work,and if it starts drying too fast wait for corner bead and take care of your box work, it will make you faster and higher quality to master tying in your work while wet (it makes it dry and shrink in, with out and added edge or time. Plus no sanding between coats. While you are there slide the center of your butts like a row of nails and if it was pounded by the hangers slide the dimples from the box work sideways, again while set up, but wet. It will help it all dry and shrink back similarly. Then I box my butts 3 wide. Cap the center depending on whats needed, same as finish, 3? You can see if 3 isn't gonna cut it I usually go 2 cap and split on both sides, 2. If you get a real bad one you have to bust later by hand you have a good foundation. It may sound like over kill but when people see your work they will know they have someone that knows what they are doing. Single cap on butts, I haven't seen in years or I should say I don't want to see in years.


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## gn87berner (Jan 3, 2016)

I forgot to mention crossing off where your box starts in the angle while you are at it...no sanding between coats


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## BShoot (May 27, 2015)

I don't run a blade behind my box... Just the intersection ties.. The wheels r there for a reason, use em.. The brake, use right there at that ntersection to feather into the flat of course. And I will run my angles after my 2nd coat flats and butts, then only have 1 line to clean up through your flat/Butt


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

BShoot said:


> I don't run a blade behind my box... Just the intersection ties.. The wheels r there for a reason, use em.. The brake, use right there at that ntersection to feather into the flat of course. And I will run my angles after my 2nd coat flats and butts, then only have 1 line to clean up through your flat/Butt


I have over the years realized that running a blade over the wet bands is the fastest, best way to clean up the work. It is not the only way. It is just that given all the possible ways to skin this cat, I personally choose fastest and best, over all of the other methods.


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## gn87berner (Jan 3, 2016)

if you are a young taper, learn to run your box clean and refrain from knifing joints. it is neither the fastest or best. just the way endo prefers. my 1st employer in 1984 made his tapers knife the boxed joint. why? starter marks or pock marks. mud on the back of your box blade is the only way to get "christmas trees" or starter marks.clean the back of your blade and rebox to rid pocks and trees. A box blade will stay in a more consistent position rather than a broad knife. period. the only other person I worked for that knifed their joints was a plasterer that won a bid on a historic remodel that had plaster. didn't know jack about finishing drywall. even had a "chaser" following a nail spotter wtf


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## mld (Jul 2, 2012)

I just prefer to handle the mud wet instead of grind it off after it dries. If you want the highest quality surface you are not going to get it with just boxes. They are definitely a key component to efficient work, but there is no substitute for skill with a knife or trowel. 

If you can't get your work flat and smooth by hand, there is no way you'll get it there with tools. Maybe you you can get enough mud on the wall and sand it to the level you want, but nothing beats having the skills to do it by hand!


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

mld said:


> I just prefer to handle the mud wet instead of grind it off after it dries. If you want the highest quality surface you are not going to get it with just boxes. They are definitely a key component to efficient work, but there is no substitute for skill with a knife or trowel.
> 
> If you can't get your work flat and smooth by hand, there is no way you'll get it there with tools. Maybe you you can get enough mud on the wall and sand it to the level you want, but nothing beats having the skills to do it by hand!


Funny thing is tools put exactly the right of mud on the wall and a true to flat as your ever going to get if you know how to use the tools and you don't have trace behind them ether never have and its perfect every time...


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Lol, never seen anyone that could run a box good enough to where it didn't need anything afterward. Probably production guys who never have to come back. We on the other hand run a 500w halogen over every surface after paint. Pock marks, Christmas trees, drag mark, trash in the mud... Some things you cant see in normal lighting. I mean at least go back over your skim coat..


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## mld (Jul 2, 2012)

Mudstar said:


> Funny thing is tools put exactly the right of mud on the wall and a true to flat as your ever going to get if you know how to use the tools and you don't have trace behind them ether never have and its perfect every time...


Yes, but I've never seen a flat wall, and I have to manage to make my seams match the walls I'm given. I know how to run boxes without wiping behind them, and have done it many times. However, when it comes to making my work look good I have a system that gives me the best result with the least amount of effort. 

I JUST DON'T LIKE SANDING.


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

thefinisher said:


> Lol, never seen anyone that could run a box good enough to where it didn't need anything afterward. Probably production guys who never have to come back. We on the other hand run a 500w halogen over every surface after paint. Pock marks, Christmas trees, drag mark, trash in the mud... Some things you cant see in normal lighting. I mean at least go back over your skim coat..


Never said flat wall, I said flat as you can get and I guess you don't know how to run a box with out touching your work with a knife or trowel. I seem to be able to with a very light sanding at the end. A 500 watt light is too bright too it closes your your pupil and doesn't allow you to see the contours of the wall..JS


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## gn87berner (Jan 3, 2016)

most people texturing their finish? then anyone that does smooth wall then textures it, is an idiot. I mean you CAN coat your bead 3 times, bust all your joints the 3rd time by hand, slide your angles, and then sand your ass off with a light....good for you, you are not a very good finisher then. probably heard that you can't run a nail spotter either or just can't. a good finisher knows how to finish the different levels.
we were doing level 5 before it had a designation, but why on earth would you do that and then texture. and when we did level 5 still no troweling box work. a clean sharp box blade and knowing how to run it finishes drywall. key is to keep the back of the blade clean. there are no trees, pocks ect unless the finisher puts them in there.
you can paint the highway stripes by hand and claim they are the best stripes... but they make tools for that
do you trowel after you run an angle head? if not, why? same thing. a drywall tool finishing drywall


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

We do alot of texture in my area but we also take it to a good level 4 before texture ( light hand tex) . Reason for this is we like to do a good job and texture goes much faster when you arnt trying to cover or hide imperfections. If orangepeel we will take it even farther by pre priming:thumbsup:


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## gn87berner (Jan 3, 2016)

more power to you. what is to cover and hide with a solid L3 with texture? and hand texture at that, that is why, that is what is called for..it works. When doing peel.. if you have a high wall with windows and the setting sun..you know it needs more...a hall with the sun shining down it..it needs more.. Just IMOP people that over finish are not confident in their abilities and are worrying...will this cover???
and far as prime before?? I ask the HO or builder are you a gambler?? no warranty with out prime before..and no I don't prime the closets


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## gn87berner (Jan 3, 2016)

i should have said closets with out lights..otherwise full finish,prime ect


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## johnnyblazedesings (Feb 2, 2016)

U hit it with tha 10 inbox on both sides of ur butt joint then do it again with ur 12 in box touch up or skim how ever u perfer if it needs mud u leave some on trust me


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

gn87berner said:


> if you are a young taper, learn to run your box clean and refrain from knifing joints. it is neither the fastest or best. just the way endo prefers. my 1st employer in 1984 made his tapers knife the boxed joint. why? starter marks or pock marks. mud on the back of your box blade is the only way to get "christmas trees" or starter marks.clean the back of your blade and rebox to rid pocks and trees. A box blade will stay in a more consistent position rather than a broad knife. period. the only other person I worked for that knifed their joints was a plasterer that won a bid on a historic remodel that had plaster. didn't know jack about finishing drywall. even had a "chaser" following a nail spotter wtf


Or maybe you have a higher tolerance for bad workmanship than me. I have no tolerance for bad finishing. It has created many an argument between myself and the other newer finishers. But in the end my way of quality finishing always wins out. Hands down.


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

learn to run the box,or the box will run you


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

gn87berner said:


> "christmas trees" or starter marks. wtf


I never heard that term,,, we call it flagging. Either way the guy pushing the box can prevent it from happening,,, if he knows how.:yes:


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

It is the age old argument between hack workmanship and quality workmanship that will probably never be settled.


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## gn87berner (Jan 3, 2016)

I cringe at the thought if I finished the way my 1st employer did it. Maybe that is the only way you know how. As far as hack, I say, we were doing level 5 before it had designation. So I take offense in your response as tolerant for bad workmanship. I am looking out for younger finishers listening to someone that says falsehoods for what is faster or best. You may do it..good for you but you should think of the younger guys that you could influence to waste their time troweling joints. Funny that resort to saying what you don't know about me...have you ever been out of your area to see more efficient and better ways to finish not just the way you learned? or did just learn on the western slope and think you are superior? If so I feel sorry for you.


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## gn87berner (Jan 3, 2016)

grand junction .....hot bed for drywall innovation.....not


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Good burn,dude inch:. Keep 'em coming. :thumbup:


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## BShoot (May 27, 2015)

gn87berner said:


> I cringe at the thought if I finished the way my 1st employer did it. Maybe that is the only way you know how. As far as hack, I say, we were doing level 5 before it had designation. So I take offense in your response as tolerant for bad workmanship. I am looking out for younger finishers listening to someone that says falsehoods for what is faster or best. You may do it..good for you but you should think of the younger guys that you could influence to waste their time troweling joints. Funny that resort to saying what you don't know about me...have you ever been out of your area to see more efficient and better ways to finish not just the way you learned? or did just learn on the western slope and think you are superior? If so I feel sorry for you.


My father is old school... Banjo and hawk kinda guy. I am so so sO thankful to have mudded in Denver, The south, and have learned SO many things from SO many people to b able to trial and error everything that they have(well, not everything of course), but find what worked best compared to the other finishers I've worked with.. Thing is, never stop growing and if something works better, always be able to open up to the fact that it might give you a high quality result, quicker and at ease.. That's what business is, right? Treat your high expectations to the higher self you can be by learning.. What's great about the trade, always learn something new every house/building..


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## gn87berner (Jan 3, 2016)

bought his tools at a pawn shop and still hasn't figured out how to run them....no crying keep trying


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

BShoot said:


> My father is old school... Banjo and hawk kinda guy. I am so so sO thankful to have mudded in Denver, The south, and have learned SO many things from SO many people to b able to trial and error everything that they have(well, not everything of course), but find what worked best compared to the other finishers I've worked with.. Thing is, never stop growing and if something works better, always be able to open up to the fact that it might give you a high quality result, quicker and at ease.. That's what business is, right? Treat your high expectations to the higher self you can be by learning.. What's great about the trade, always learn something new every house/building..


You'll get it one day, one day


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## johnnyblazedesings (Feb 2, 2016)

I do smooth finish almost everyday and im young can show most of yall how to do this **** right and burning one while im doing it lol


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## BShoot (May 27, 2015)

Mudstar said:


> You'll get it one day, one day


You have a life!? Lmfao


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

gn87berner said:


> grand junction .....hot bed for drywall innovation.....not


Gran junkshun? Whar's a that?


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Actually in Western Colorado we have the opportunity to do work that you don't see in other parts of the country. In many cases, average home we do is in the ten to twenty million dollar range. Many (or at least some) of the owners are household names. That is not saying that there isn't a fair amount of hack workmanship here, as there is everywhere. In fact that was my point. We just don't do it.


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Sure is alotta talking going on , any pics?


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> Actually in Western Colorado we have the opportunity to do work that you don't see in other parts of the country. In many cases, average home we do is in the ten to twenty million dollar range. Many (or at least some) of the owners are household names. That is not saying that there isn't a fair amount of hack workmanship here, as there is everywhere. In fact that was my point. We just don't do it.


We have those houses here in California only on smaller lots. Lake Tahoe, San Francisco, all up and down the coast and Los Angeles is just nuts beach front or even close. I just saw a post here where a video was walking through a Florida mansion that was huge. There's a lot of pretty country here and all over the world. The ultra wealthy go to Colorado because property is cheaper.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

johnnyblazedesings said:


> I do smooth finish almost everyday and im young can show most of yall how to do this **** right and burning one while im doing it lol



Your me!! When I was 19!! :yes:

Trust me! You'll get over It!!


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

chris said:


> Sure is alotta talking going on , any pics?


These are random pics lol....also top pick if wondering why joins arent 100% straight job was specified hand troweled by owner who is a artist and didnt want to see a box in his house. I dont argue when its hourly and a 2000sqm of drywall


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

....


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Who else can walk the walk


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Zoom in as close you like


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

some older pics. The last pic is how we cut rips,, not really


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

endo_alley said:


> ten to twenty million dollar range.


I just worked on a BARN that has a price upwards of 10 million dollars,,,, really:yes:. Maybe fr8 got some pics, I didn't,,, I have a dumb phone.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

The footprint was around 30x60.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

embella plaster said:


> Zoom in as close you like


 I did...You gonna have to sand the chit out of that seam!!:yes:


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## gopherstateguy (Apr 8, 2012)

I never realized closing price/clients qualified our skills as finishers. I have finished 500 sheet jobs with no off angles and 80 sheet jobs with 2 groin ceilings and 14 arches. I treat 20 sheet remodels and 700 sheet custom homes with the same attention to detail. Am I a "hack"?:jester:?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

embella plaster said:


> These are random pics lol....also top pick if wondering why joins arent 100% straight job was specified hand troweled by owner who is a artist and didnt want to see a box in his house. I dont argue when its hourly and a 2000sqm of drywall


Nice hand work embella! clean floors too !!! Your a neat finisher I hope your no where near Gaz and keke ....You might run those boys out of town! :whistling2:...........:laughing::laughing:


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## johnnyblazedesings (Feb 2, 2016)

moore said:


> Your me!! When I was 19!! :yes:
> 
> Trust me! You'll get over It!!


I sure hope they knw how to tape on ur side of contry cuz ive sent alot of nasty stuff out there


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

johnnyblazedesings said:


> I sure hope they knw how to tape on ur side of contry cuz ive sent alot of nasty stuff out there


Well don't judge the rest of them because of me!!:blink:


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

embella plaster said:


> Who else can walk the walk



I try, and sometimes I surprise myself.


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Here are a few more. On one reno we did the owner wanted us to match an old cornice (when I first looked at the job this was not the case) we had no chance of getting hold of a reproduction cornice at such short notice, so this is what I came up with. She loved it.:thumbsup:

BTW the pics are from two different jobs.


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

I see what you did there with the cornice 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## johnnyblazedesings (Feb 2, 2016)

Very nice u knw whats sup not like that other moron


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> I just worked on a BARN that has a price upwards of 10 million dollars,,,, really:yes:. Maybe fr8 got some pics, I didn't,,, I have a dumb phone.


Funny - We did a barn last year that was up there in price too. About 15,000 square feet. Looked like a Walmart inside. Not much drywall. We did smooth walls in the horse stalls (maybe a dozen or so). The rest , walls and ceilings were all reclaimed pine wood siding inside. It was over 100 feet inside and set up as a personal steeple jumping arena for the owners wife. They owned the whole side of a mountain. They were still worried about the drywall budget.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Here at the Ironstone Ranch http://ironstoneranch.com/
I've worked on the main barn, the main house and the pool house. Most of the property isn't on the website because it's the family residence.
The pool house isn't exactly a pool house as I'd imagine,,, it's a three story dwelling in excess of 4000 sqft with an elevator. 
The new barn hasn't made the website either. It's built with a lot of reclaimed wood and most of the exterior is real stone, is three stories and has an elevator. 
The owner bought the Star barn complex http://thestarbarn.com/
and has plans to re-erect the over a century old barn and out buildings on the ranch property.
It's quite and estate.


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

gn87berner said:


> I cringe at the thought if I finished the way my 1st employer did it. Maybe that is the only way you know how. As far as hack, I say, we were doing level 5 before it had designation. So I take offense in your response as tolerant for bad workmanship. I am looking out for younger finishers listening to someone that says falsehoods for what is faster or best. You may do it..good for you but you should think of the younger guys that you could influence to waste their time troweling joints. Funny that resort to saying what you don't know about me...have you ever been out of your area to see more efficient and better ways to finish not just the way you learned? or did just learn on the western slope and think you are superior? If so I feel sorry for you.


Feel Sorry for this guy that's western!:thumbup:
U Mr Master Baiter:thumbsup:
I'm so good look at me!! Well show me the goods if ur so good!.


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

gazman said:


> Here are a few more. On one reno we did the owner wanted us to match an old cornice (when I first looked at the job this was not the case) we had no chance of getting hold of a reproduction cornice at such short notice, so this is what I came up with. She loved it.:thumbsup:
> 
> BTW the pics are from two different jobs.


Gaz as always looking good!:thumbsup:


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## BShoot (May 27, 2015)

Here's you a Boulder, CO artist home..


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## BShoot (May 27, 2015)

Nice place..:


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