# Sick of auto tools vs hand taping debate



## machinemud (Jul 21, 2010)

Why hand taper think they are faster ? There is no way in hell they can beat auto tools .... I'm not an expert with bazooka but i'm really good with a supertaper and by the time they finish taping the same house by hand , ill have a beer in front of my pool . 7000sq ft house took me 45 min to coat angle with angle box... Impossible by hand , flat box took me 25 minutes , screws with the spotter 15 minutes ... I can't find why they claim they are faster ,,, jealous ? Maybe ...


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## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

Some people are anti change.And our ignorant to believing somthing could be better than their way they are doing it..The only one who is loosing that battle is themselfs..Being narrow minded is a terrible handicap..


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

smisner50s said:


> Some people are anti change.And our ignorant to believing somthing could be better than their way they are doing it..The only one who is loosing that battle is themselfs..Being narrow minded is a terrible handicap..


cheering for the wrong hockey team can be a majour handicap too:whistling2:

the hand vs machine will never go away, and it's usually the young bucks that in gauge in that battle. The older ones I know of understand the machines, they just argue the hour work world vs the piece work world. Sometimes I think they have a point. They work 40 hours a week, Pay less in taxes, and get to collect poggy when their not working. Don't think I half to explain the p/w world to most on this site.

What does bug me is, a so called machine taper, that knocks a certain machine:whistling2:, b/c they don't know how to use it right.

More tapers should be like you Smis50, Your actually a full time general contractor who does it all. You don't tape full time, yet your smart enough to invest in all the tools:thumbup:

But then again, being a full time general contractor, you probably make 10 times more money than we do:thumbup:


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## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> cheering for the wrong hockey team can be a majour handicap too:whistling2:
> 
> the hand vs machine will never go away, and it's usually the young bucks that in gauge in that battle. The older ones I know of understand the machines, they just argue the hour work world vs the piece work world. Sometimes I think they have a point. They work 40 hours a week, Pay less in taxes, and get to collect poggy when their not working. Don't think I half to explain the p/w world to most on this site.
> 
> ...


If i made 10 times more i wouldent be up on these stilts hanging grid....or would i.,.And thank you new android phone app


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## Quicksetter (Jun 25, 2012)

No way a hand finisher could be as productive with a good amount of board. Once your body gets used to them, running tools can be 3-4 times faster. 

There are only certain conditions where tools don't make sense IMO. Tight spaces, >30 boards, fire taping, etc.. Otherwise, pump it and hump it!:thumbsup:


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## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)




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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

machinemud said:


> *Sick of auto tools vs hand taping debate*


You Could quit reading the threads and posts on it.

Just a thought.

:whistling2:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> You Could quit reading the threads and posts on it.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> :whistling2:


I was just going to post something to that effect, but more along the lines of:

"Then you could not contribute to it":whistling2:


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

I grew up hand taping and I know better than to think I could go faster than someone using a banjo or bazooka! But when it comes to finishing I believe that flat boxes are about the only thing useful for our jobs. We don't allow any of our finisher to use a corner box. Everything must be hand finished except for the flats. It just comes out nicer. It is all about quality when you are doing a multi million dollar home :thumbsup:


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> cheering for the wrong hockey team can be a majour handicap too:whistling2:
> 
> the hand vs machine will never go away, and it's usually the young bucks that in gauge in that battle. The older ones I know of understand the machines, they just argue the hour work world vs the piece work world. Sometimes I think they have a point. They work 40 hours a week, Pay less in taxes, and get to collect poggy when their not working. Don't think I half to explain the p/w world to most on this site.
> 
> ...


so that's why your so grumpy


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

thefinisher said:


> I grew up hand taping and I know better than to think I could go faster than someone using a banjo or bazooka! But when it comes to finishing I believe that flat boxes are about the only thing useful for our jobs. We don't allow any of our finisher to use a corner box. Everything must be hand finished except for the flats. It just comes out nicer. It is all about quality when you are doing a multi million dollar home :thumbsup:


Yea, sure can't do quality with an angle box....:blink:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

The angle box is not quite as easy to master as the flat boxes.
That may have something to do with why one would give up on em.:whistling2:


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## fenez (Nov 30, 2009)

I mostly do everything by hand and any one that thinks hand taping is even close to machine taping is a fn moron, it's just common sense, once you see some one use the auto tools you know that there is never going to be a day you could come close by hand. The quality is there also, finishing corners by hand is no better than using an angle box. And that's not my humble opinion that's a fact.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

fenez said:


> I mostly do everything by hand and any one that thinks hand taping is even close to machine taping is a fn moron, it's just common sense, once you see some one use the auto tools you know that there is never going to be a day you could come close by hand. The quality is there also, finishing corners by hand is no better than using an angle box. And that's not my humble opinion that's a fact.



well it is preference for sure


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## TAPERT2 (Feb 18, 2015)

thefinisher said:


> I grew up hand taping and I know better than to think I could go faster than someone using a banjo or bazooka! But when it comes to finishing I believe that flat boxes are about the only thing useful for our jobs. We don't allow any of our finisher to use a corner box. Everything must be hand finished except for the flats. It just comes out nicer. It is all about quality when you are doing a multi million dollar home :thumbsup:


Wouldnt leave Home without my angle box hand finishing angles is a lot of waisted time ,footage wise and i learned a great way to get my angles to come out like i 2 coated them . #1 on tape coat i run same flat mud in angles and very important trick is to keep fresh roller an not let wheels get all wore out , fresh roller squeezes the most mud out from under angle tape and by mud being thicker it glazes and covers tape and fills resess like ten box does on flats . Then lastly you I run my angle box but i use a 3.5" head and yes you use more mud it takes longer but man those angles come out looking better then any hand finisher could posibly do. Lol
I been sold on running and gunnin for 26 yrs , im so lazy ill pull out the gun for 30 sheets , i hate hand taping , why waste time . Thou some jobs Do Only Hand tape and hot blood i mean "mud"


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## Sweendog87 (Apr 5, 2015)

smisner50s said:


> If i made 10 times more i wouldent be up on these stilts hanging grid....or would i.,.And thank you new android phone app
> 
> View attachment 4550


How good is this app anyone know how to follow people or how to save a thread cause I have so many different threads I forget what is in what


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

fenez said:


> I mostly do everything by hand and any one that thinks hand taping is even close to machine taping is a fn moron, it's just common sense, once you see some one use the auto tools you know that there is never going to be a day you could come close by hand. The quality is there also, finishing corners by hand is no better than using an angle box. And that's not my humble opinion that's a fact.


If its 10 sheets or 1000 sheets I will use the gun!
What it the point of not when it takes 2 mins 2clean the thing and throw it back in some water?:thumbup:
Don't think that was for u!!
But ur right tools r for using and chit with doing angles by hand!
An hour by machine or 6-8 by hand?


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

If you can't get great angles from the angle box, That's your problem, lol. I find tooled angles are faster, more efficient, and more consistent. If there is a bad angle, I have more than enough time (because I run tools), to give the problem areas extra attention. It's rare that I'm surprised on sanding day, and if I am, so what! FIx it and move on. 

Also, I get into my share of the "multi-million dollar homes"


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

I pay most of my workers $40 per hour i expect quality and the box my jobs must be perfect and thats what i get from auto tools the day i hand tape is the day i drop my banjo and it breaks......NOT...i have a spare in the truck just in case


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Time to embrace the bazooka and go fully auto Aaron. :yes:


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Embrace the dark side!


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## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

You should understand the real world application of that advice. Let's say an old school finisher, 10 years experience, uses all auto tools BUT bazooka. Hand taping is some kinda circle Jerk so let's say using a banjo. This guy is a beast he tapes faster with a banjo than most mildly experience guys with a bazooka. He's fast and he has a lifetime* worth of muscle memory. Let's get real, he has a family and by now he's the team leader, takes contracts, he needs to work fast enough to pay his workers, pay bills, insurance, and he has a family. It's going to take him at least 6 months to get to the point where he's as fast with a bazooka as he is now with a banjo. That's the problem. Learning how to sand level 5 with a machine will take a long time as well, especially if you have no one to teach you in the real world.


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

As i am a banjo hor a few days on the trowel with gaz will sort me out lol good point shelwyn will take time to learn banjo and will make me look like an amatuer were eith my banjo i am a taping freak of nature ool


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## Shelwyn (Apr 10, 2015)

embella plaster said:


> As i am a banjo hor a few days on the trowel with gaz will sort me out lol good point shelwyn will take time to learn banjo and will make me look like an amatuer were eith my banjo i am a taping freak of nature ool


Google translate auto detect send help. Hah just kidding, yes it takes time and it's not easy to learn without help. Especially if your the one the rest of the team depends on and looks up to. Struggling that first day with no help other than some YouTube videos is hard hah. Not just that but no one is showing you those small tricks that make life easier learned through years of hard work. Twist and pull here, go in this direction, so many small nuisances to tools, I can see why some people don't switch even if they're better off. Sometimes they'll have small anecdotal evidence proving the equipment 'isn't worth it' say that same person saw a team use corner rollers and flushers a few years ago and saw how crappie they were/ slow or useless it was. Years later they look up a YouTube video and see how great using roles are in the hands of an experienced professional compared to say hand.


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Shelwyn said:


> Google translate auto detect send help. Hah just kidding, yes it takes time and it's not easy to learn without help. Especially if your the one the rest of the team depends on and looks up to. Struggling that first day with no help other than some YouTube videos is hard hah. Not just that but no one is showing you those small tricks that make life easier learned through years of hard work. Twist and pull here, go in this direction, so many small nuisances to tools, I can see why some people don't switch even if they're better off. Sometimes they'll have small anecdotal evidence proving the equipment 'isn't worth it' say that same person saw a team use corner rollers and flushers a few years ago and saw how crappie they were/ slow or useless it was. Years later they look up a YouTube video and see how great using roles are in the hands of an experienced professional compared to say hand.


To true its quite funny a couple years back baught a columbia toller and a can am flusher set used it once cracked the ****s put it in my shed couple years later watched a few you tube vids on flushing and am now in love all i needed was some tips


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

embella plaster said:


> As i am a banjo hor a few days on the trowel with gaz will sort me out lol good point shelwyn will take time to learn banjo and will make me look like an amatuer were eith my banjo i am a taping freak of nature ool


I have been thinking about this post and Shelwyns, and I agree there is a learning curve, but in the end it is worth it. And I reckon I have the solution. 
Get a bazooka and for a start just run the vertical angles. Chances are even an "L" plater on the zook will be faster than their existing method. So no time lost :thumbsup:.
This also has the benefit of teaching muscle memory in using the zooka. All the important things hold true regardless of whether you are doing flats or angles, stop before you cut, advance as you roll on, using the creaser wheel etc. 
Then when you have gained confidence have a crack at the ceilings. :thumbup:


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Hey Gaz I'm interested in trying bazooka and easyflow like you mentioned.but I am worried about cracking. 
And I don't want to run base through it as I looks hard to clean already,
So have you had any problems with cracking ?
And I would assume ceilings would be back blocked ?



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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

Aussiecontractor said:


> Hey Gaz I'm interested in trying bazooka and easyflow like you mentioned.but I am worried about cracking.
> And I don't want to run base through it as I looks hard to clean already,
> So have you had any problems with cracking ?
> And I would assume ceilings would be back blocked ?
> ...


Hey i have taped big jobs with easy flow works great as your not cleaning your banjo every hour the banjo fully opens so even if pre mix goes dry a little u can still hose it off wouldnt let it go hard in a bazooka but i have had no cracking i taped with ezy flow second with base and top with final finish comes up really good ALL JOINS MUST BE BACK BLOCKED lol


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Have been using easyflow for a couple of years with zero problems. We only back block to Australian standards ( any room that has three joins or more).
It works great with paper tape and even better with fiba fuse.


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

gazman said:


> Have been using easyflow for a couple of years with zero problems. We only back block to Australian standards ( any room that has three joins or more).
> It works great with paper tape and even better with fiba fuse.


Whats with that gaz dont u feel a poor old laundry with 2 joins in it deserves the same treatment as its big fat sister kitchen with ten


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

embella plaster said:


> Hey i have taped big jobs with easy flow works great as your not cleaning your banjo every hour the banjo fully opens so even if pre mix goes dry a little u can still hose it off wouldnt let it go hard in a bazooka but i have had no cracking i taped with ezy flow second with base and top with final finish comes up really good ALL JOINS MUST BE BACK BLOCKED lol


Why second coat with base? Using base over an air drying compound is a no no. Just second coat with flow:thumbsup:

All joins must be back blocked? I don't think so. In my opinion it is a waste of time if your ceilings are battened with steel.


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## embella plaster (Sep 21, 2013)

gazman said:


> Why second coat with base? Using base over an air drying compound is a no no. Just second coat with flow:thumbsup:
> 
> All joins must be back blocked? I don't think so. In my opinion it is a waste of time if your ceilings are battened with steel.


Thanks for the tip with no base over compound. ....why is that....and i guess inlove back block so much as they make the join more stiff when trowelling thats the only reason i love them lol


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

It can cause the easy flow to reactivate and result in delamination of the coats.


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

That was my next question with the second coat. I was thinking you couldn't run base over the top.
What about shrinkage ?
I generally backblock everything 


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Easy flow all three coats, no problem. If you have shrinkage problems you are running mud that iis too wet. The only thing that I use base for is the first coat on beads.


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

I agree, I run my 1st box coat with heavier mud then most guys around here. Only time I usually get a shrink line is when the lids aren't blown. Or if I do, it's minimal. Makes for easier/faster sanding between coats. A lot of times, if there's a shrink line, you need to get rid of it before skimming.


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Sweet, cheers how long between coats ?


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Aussiecontractor said:


> Sweet, cheers how long between coats ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Dont coat until the previous coat is dry. That is going to vary according to conditions. Another big advantage with taping with an air drying mud is that you can tape in hot conditions without fear of the tape letting go. So get a coat on open up the house and get it dry. I will not tape and second coat the same day with paper tape, it is always a risk, it may look dry but can still be wet under the tape. The advantage with fiba fuse is that you can see if it is dry or not. With air dry it can start drying as soon as it hits the wall, you don't have to wait until it goes off first then starts to dry.


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Generally, for us, it's one coat per day. Unless it's a crap basement with no ventilation and no dehumidifier! Then it gets to sit. Or, not enough heat over the winter.


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Back to the OP, I'll give the numbers for the last house we did.

Just shy of 200 sheets. 9' down 8' up 10' garage. 29 beads, 3/8 bull, one square in garage, 2 small no-coats in basement stairs. 3 wrapped openings.

Monday, cut apart, pre-fill, tape flat and angles, stick bead, spot screws.
6-6.5 hrs

Tuesday, block coat everything, 10" box on flats, pull the butts, coat beads, spot screws, and pack 3 ways. 
3.5 hrs

Wednesday, taped a 60 sheet basement with 2 dbl sided soffits with 3/4 bull, 2 stand up no coats, 9 square bead. Went to other job to fill out the day. Brushed everything off, skimmed garage.

7.5 -8 hrs 

Thursday, finish skim in house, box flats, box angles, coat beads, spot screws. Sand garage. 

6 hrs

Friday, sand house, touch-up, scrape& sweep. skim basement, sand touch-ups in house because we were right next to it doing a stairwell, 2 coat a different basement stairwell.

6hrs

Saturday, sand basement, sand stairwell. Met my wife for lunch. 

4 hrs


Total, 33.5-34 hrs for 3 guys. Easy week.


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## APAsh2 (Apr 14, 2015)

gazman said:


> It can cause the easy flow to reactivate and result in delamination of the coats.


Wouldn't the moisture of any second coat cause the tapes to reactivate and "delaminate"?


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

I think the issue is caused by once the base/hot mud is set, isn't not going to move anymore. Then the pre-mix underneath can shrink back away from it, creating the delamination. 

I could be wrong on that line of thought however.


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## APAsh2 (Apr 14, 2015)

Makes sense. I've had no problems yet, solid as a rock!


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