# Tape&Float vs. Level 5 vs. Finishing ?



## Sue34 (Apr 5, 2013)

I been a finisher a very long time. I must say I am confused. I am from Pittsburgh Pa, and this is what we did to finish board. This is what we called a drywall finisher. We tape, then "bed in" with a 10". Then finish coat or skim with a 12". Three coats on bead. Two-three on butts. 
Level 5 finish is when we would thinly coat the entire surface of the board to help prevent flashing. This gives the board the same consistency. We do this by rolling or spraying the mud on and wiping it off.

So I moved to Texas. All I kept hearing was tape/float. People kept asking if I tape and float. I never heard these terms before. But I figured it was just their way of describing finishing drywall. After taking a job with a company here, I noticed the other finishers doing crazy, stupid, time consuming, material wasting, things. They are not neat at all with anything they do. They run everything together, stop and starting at the butt joints leaving a small area not done, instead of running one thing first, giving it a chance to set up then running the other. Tape is sloppy. Just many things which I thought separated me from them as a good finisher. But after watching the way the finish it off I am thinking I am the bad finisher. This tape/float crap covers everything.

This is what they do. They tape (very not neat and ugly), then bed it in very wide. Like with 2 10's. Each joint is busted out(as I call it) like 20". Then two guys come and trowel very thin mud over everything. From what I can tell it looks to be like 1/8 or 1/4 inch thick? Way thicker than I level 5. Then they go over this several more times before finally sanding and painting.

I have been finishing for about 30 years and have never seen this type of finishing. Never heard the terms tape and float. I feel lost in a field where I thought I was damm good. In fact I AM damm good where I am from. But here I am confused. This tape/float **** seems like a colossal waste of time, money, man power and materials. Let me finish a room the way I know how vs. their tape/float **** and it will look just as good at a fraction of the cost.


Anyway, can someone please explain in detail the tape/float process? At what point do you trial that **** on, and what do you do after that?


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## Sue34 (Apr 5, 2013)

I am going to post some pictures of a typical wall that they do. Notice this wall. This is a butt joint going across the top and a normal flat coming down. No damm way any butt joint needs to be this wide. And especially the flat! I do not know if you can tell by the pictures.The butt is about 50" wide. And the flat is like 20".


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Hey bud.
Welcome to drywalltalk.
And ya, the majority of the world would typically do things the way you do.
Tape, 10", 12", 3 coats on beads, 2-3 on butts.
Level 5 = thin coat of mud over entire surface to help prevent flashing.

When you say the word "trial", did you mean trowel?
If so, that's a ridiculous amount of labour...and material...

So I would have to agree with you. Sounds ridiculous.
I mean, if the work looks good, than great.
But all the same, the work can look great without all those extra steps.


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## Sue34 (Apr 5, 2013)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Hey bud.
> Welcome to drywalltalk.
> And ya, the majority of the world would typically do things the way you do.
> Tape, 10", 12", 3 coats on beads, 2-3 on butts.
> ...



Thank YOU! finally someone with some sense. Yes I meant trowel. They are crazy here. And when I read the job classifieds, I see the terms "tape floater" wanted all over the place. I thought they just called finishing something different. But I was wrong. It looks to me like this float crap is a popular thing here, and not just this company.
So much waste of time and money. I can get the walls to look just as good with a fraction of the money they are spending.
I need someone to explain the process of this float crap.


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Well i've never seen it done truthfully, so I cant really explain it. I know there was another thread started on here not long ago where some dude was freaking out about the same thing. The company he was working for would put huge levels to the wall and everything had to be level. Guys were busting out there joints like huge! I forget where he was located. But anyways, that thread just sparked an argument about what was a proper level 5. Im sure someone will find the thread and post it on here for you to read


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## Sue34 (Apr 5, 2013)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Well i've never seen it done truthfully, so I cant really explain it. I know there was another thread started on here not long ago where some dude was freaking out about the same thing. The company he was working for would put huge levels to the wall and everything had to be level. Guys were busting out there joints like huge! I forget where he was located. But anyways, that thread just sparked an argument about what was a proper level 5. Im sure someone will find the thread and post it on here for you to read



Oh wow. That was me! My thread. That is what they do after they "float the walls". They take a 3-4 ft level and fill in between the studs or anyplace else there is a void after placing it on the wall. I see a bunch of crazy things on this job. I am used to being a well respected finisher. But now I feel like the idiot.

I am confused and just need someone to try and explain to me this tape and float crap process. 

BTW. Please ignore the username. I asked my wife to make an account for me so she used HER name. LOL My name is Don.


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## gordie (Nov 6, 2012)

No Don your name is always going to be Sue now:lol:.Your wife has a good sense of humor she's like the dad in the Johnny cash song .You'll be the toughest guy on the site soon:thumbsup:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

So your saying, what you show in your pics, they will coat over that a 1/8" thick, on the whole wall:blink:

Maybe they couldn't give up their plastering ways, maybe it has something to their climate or something, maybe level 4 work goes bad with hot temps outside, air conditioning inside with non insulated walls........:blink:.......... Maybe.........:blink:

Lots of work, do they sand the crap out of it too???


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

gordie said:


> No Don your name is always going to be Sue now:lol:.Your wife has a good sense of humor she's like the dad in the Johnny cash song .You'll be the toughest guy on the site soon:thumbsup:


Hey Sue

Kiwiman brags his wife does all the sanding, so that makes him the boss, and her his B1tch. Do you get to do all the sanding on this job:thumbup::jester:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Sue34 said:


> Oh wow. That was me! My thread. That is what they do after they "float the walls". They take a 3-4 ft level and fill in between the studs or anyplace else there is a void after placing it on the wall. I see a bunch of crazy things on this job. I am used to being a well respected finisher. But now I feel like the idiot.
> 
> I am confused and just need someone to try and explain to me this tape and float crap process.
> 
> BTW. Please ignore the username. I asked my wife to make an account for me so she used HER name. LOL My name is Don.


You can change your name I think, but I like it.....it makes me think of Johnny Cash and the Boy Named Sue.

I have a proposal for you........why don't you ask the foreman or supervisor why they do what they do? Do it in a polite and friendly way with no judgment, explaining that you have never done it this way before and ask him to explain the logic and the process to you. It always works for me, and perhaps you will learn something.....even if it's that these guys are clueless.

I've been on L5 jobs and I've busted joints 6-8ft. wide.......not because anyone was telling me to do it, but because it needed to happen. You can't make a bad butt joint go away with a 12" box on either side. Also, if their walls wind up truly flat, they've got you beat there too. I sometimes bust seams out 24" to remove high shoulders, hell....sometimes even bigger.

The thing is, there are a lot of guys who learn to use boxes and become married to their process........and they never learn that their process just isn't up to snuff. I've seen entire wings of commercial L5 jobs fail inspection by architects......and the tapers had no idea why. I'll tell you why.........because they were hacks, and had no idea how to really make walls look smooth in worst-case light scenarios. 

Instead of bucking their system, try and learn whatever you can.......it's only going to give you more value as a finisher.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> The thing is, there are a lot of guys who learn to use boxes and become married to their process........and they never learn that their process just isn't up to snuff.


Forget about Sue, everybody gang up on Slim :furious:


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## Sue34 (Apr 5, 2013)

2buckcanuck said:


> So your saying, what you show in your pics, they will coat over that a 1/8" thick, on the whole wall:blink:
> 
> Maybe they couldn't give up their plastering ways, maybe it has something to their climate or something, maybe level 4 work goes bad with hot temps outside, air conditioning inside with non insulated walls........:blink:.......... Maybe.........:blink:
> 
> Lots of work, do they sand the crap out of it too???



Yes. They sand forever. And get this. They use 220 grit paper! You can actually see through it. I went out and bought 120 and they acted like I was nuts. Guess what else I noticed. In the rooms that are painted, they never pulled the plastic out of the expansion joints. Painted right over them. Where I come from we sand and clean them out during sanding. Know what's going to happen when they pull the plastic now? lol

I went to my own area to work. Taped.. Bed.. finished.. boxed my screws. Prepared to level 5. Proud of how good it was looking. Before I could level 5, two guys came and did their float crap all over my walls. Told me my job was to get it ready for them to float. Then they will take over. I said "30 years of finishing and I am reduced to a tape and bedder"? 

From what I can tell, this tape/float sh1t is a popular thing in this area. I think it's a huge waste of time and materials. But I didn't start the thread to bash these goofballs. I just hoped someone could explain the process to me. If this crap is what they want, I will learn how.

My wife is getting a huge kick out of the Sue jokes.. thanks guys.


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## Trim-Tex (May 4, 2011)

I've seen a lot of that in Texas as its a full float with built in imperfections. Heard it called many things like: Cats paw, skip trowel, old time ect.ect.

BTW. 2013 catalogs are out: So Get One please

Flying back to Chicago today.....Yah


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## Sue34 (Apr 5, 2013)

SlimPickins said:


> You can change your name I think, but I like it.....it makes me think of Johnny Cash and the Boy Named Sue.
> 
> I have a proposal for you........why don't you ask the foreman or supervisor why they do what they do? Do it in a polite and friendly way with no judgment, explaining that you have never done it this way before and ask him to explain the logic and the process to you. It always works for me, and perhaps you will learn something.....even if it's that these guys are clueless.
> 
> ...



That is exactly what I am trying to do. I posted this asking for help with this tape/float system of theirs. I have talked to the so called foreman. The problem is, we have a language issue. He (and all the other finishers) are Mexican. They speak English but with a heavy accent and no explanations. 

I really dont want this thread to turn into a my way is better than your way thing. Or how wide things need to be to straighten them. But let me tell you my way to finish a butt.

I have a 20" knife. I put two 10's on the butt and take my 20 down it to smooth it with 0 lap marks. Next coat I take a 10 or 12 on each side of the tape. Most of the time this will eliminate the hump. If not, do it again. Then skim entire butt. Violla. Perfectly straight butt and no more than a few feet wide. 

Yes I know sometimes things need to be busted out wider. But the above pictures are their standard finishing practice on ALL joints/butts regardless of how good or bad they are. Im sorry but not every butt needs to be 4 freakin ft wide! Not every joint needs to be 2 or 3 ft.

I did think this tape/float system of theirs was just something they did. But I have since found out it is very popular in this area. That is why I started this thread. Figured someone out there knows how it is done.


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## Mountain Man (Oct 28, 2012)

I would have to say that they are in way too deep!! I don't know what the wages are in Texas but I assume we're getting paid more up here. And we're not even gettin close to enough to do all that.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Forget about Sue, everybody gang up on Slim :furious:



Why do you want to bust my balls? Because I've come a little to close to home on your process?:whistling2::laughing:

I never said boxes were bad, I just said they don't always do the trick.......and that people who think they can use a box 100% of the time to fix 100% of the joints are going to wind up with an inferior finish. So there! :tt2:





Sue34 said:


> That is exactly what I am trying to do. I posted this asking for help with this tape/float system of theirs. I have talked to the so called foreman. The problem is, we have a language issue. He (and all the other finishers) are Mexican. They speak English but with a heavy accent and no explanations.
> 
> I really dont want this thread to turn into a my way is better than your way thing. Or how wide things need to be to straighten them. But let me tell you my way to finish a butt.
> 
> ...


I wasn't trying to say my way was better, merely saying that perhaps they have a reason......and maybe that reason is that the framing is so terribly gawd-awful they need to do it this way. I don't know.....but I do agree, it sounds like an awful lot of extra work to do it everywhere.


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## gordie (Nov 6, 2012)

You see Sue your already in the middle of a good fight:boxing:.Your gonna be tough real quick.


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

Sounds like thin coat plaster using drywall mud. I have some friends that live in Texas. I'll have to ask. One is a cabinet builder, he might know some reasoning. Seems a bit odd. And I kinda like Sue better than Don. Couldn't you just switch names with your wife? She must be OK with Don. She married you.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

HIGH SHOULDERS....Looks like Texas is fighting the garbage board too.:yes:..Throw a straight edge up to the wall Sue...Are they slapping on too much mud or just trying to flatin out the trash board?


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

Perhaps someone will step up from Texas and post an explain of their process and some sound reasons. I think to it would be a huge waste of energy and time.


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

Do you ever see anyone from Texas on here. Might be good reason. They are plaster guys at heart.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Tim0282 said:


> Do you ever see anyone from Texas on here. Might be good reason. They are plaster guys at heart.


The man who started this site was from Texas (Nathan), but now even he is gone....... (phhhffftt, he was a painter anyhow:whistling2:jester:

Think I remember only one other member saying they were from Texas. Maybe he read stuff on here, and went,,,,,







What are these guys talking about


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> Why do you want to bust my balls? Because I've come a little to close to home on your process?:whistling2::laughing:


Your wrong


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Your wrong


It's true. 


And so are you. :tt2:

"*You're*" is a contraction for "you are", as in "*you're* wrong".

"*Your*" is a possessive pronoun, as in "Are those *your* velcro gloves stuck on my sheep?"

There's also "*yore*", which is a noun, to signify a time long ago....as in "In the days of *yore*, 2buckcanuck installed drywall with a rock and tiny sharp sticks, and used a mixture of mud and *manure* to fill the cracks".


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> It's true.
> 
> 
> And so are you. :tt2:
> ...


A American trying to lecture the world on how to speak "English"

First you guys half to learn how to spell things right:thumbup:


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> A American trying to lecture the world on how to speak "English"
> 
> First you guys half to learn how to spell things right:thumbup:


Yo yo yo...cheque it out homie, my spelling skills are dope, yo.



And, I will ignore the error in your post because it's morning, and I feel nice. Also, I'm not the grammar police. I _half_ to go to the bathroom now, and then off to work.


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

Misspelled words and words used the wrong way are just about like leaving a butt joint or flat showing.


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## Sue34 (Apr 5, 2013)

Ok. Im finally learning what these people do here. This tape/float crap is very popular here. They dont even use the term drywall finisher. They use tape & floater.

They tape first. They dont care how they tape. Not neat or with several tricks I have learned throughout my 30 years of finishing. Such as taping the butts first, then the flat to cover the edge of the butt tape. I try and make the tape as long as possible, without cutting it. When I tape the top of walls after the bottom is taped, I leave a very small space in between the top piece and bottom, not over lap them. After they tape the walls, they coat all joints very wide. Like I showed in my pictures. All joints are at least 20 in wide. Butts are like 2-3 x wider than that. They also dont care about coating everything at once. Forget about coating the flat first waiting for it to set a little, then coating the butt. Nope, they run everything together. The knife of choice seems to be a 10". They are all in awe of my 20" knife I have. They never seen one before.

These guys tape any way they want, because after they tape (then coat all joints super wide) they "float" the entire wall with mud. Sort of like level 5 but thicker. Then they go over this layer 2-3 more times. They also take a 3-4 foot straight edge and level the walls with regular mud. Any place there is corner bead, there is ALLOT to fill in. I suggested no-coat or metal tape so as there wouldnt be so much to fill in, but they think I am nuts.

Yesterday I saw them mud up a 8ft section of a wall and use a 8 ft metal stud to level it. Keep in mind they trowel all mud on. They never heard of rolling the mud on.

Then the painters do the sanding. They use a 150, then a 220. The junky box mud (I never heard of the brand name), scratches very easily. They want the walls SMOOTH as can be. No scratches, roller marks, or even paint texture. So they sand like crazy the primer down. And roll the finish with the thinnest roller there is. I forget which it is (cause Im not a painter). 3/8 in nap maybe?

I bought a 4 ft folding scaffold to use for myself. They never saw one of these either.

My conclusions: The tape/float sh1t does look nice when done. But let me do a room my way, with the mud I want, and level 5 it and I guarantee it will look just as good. With a fraction of the labor and materials. Tape/float is a huge waste of time and labor.

But I will keep doing their crap. Because I need the job.....for now.


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

Sounds quite interesting. Wondering why someone doesn't come in and under cut their price. Just because of speed and using less material, you would be far less money. Hard to understand their thinking.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Sue, stop complaining, you said in your post the painters do all the sanding:thumbsup::thumbup:

:jester:


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## fenez (Nov 30, 2009)

The process is ridiculous, sounds like they are trying to veneer with compound which is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.


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## harvey randall (Nov 23, 2010)

*how do you do*

i worked houston -dallas -fort worth-etc. retard inbreds in tex. get out of there. idiots. seriously-idiots. run for your sanity


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

So, how do you really feel about Texas, Harvey?


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

harvey randall said:


> i worked houston -dallas -fort worth-etc. retard inbreds in tex. get out of there. idiots. seriously-idiots. run for your sanity


I think you caught it Harvey. I'm so sorry that I had to be the one to tell you:jester:


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

:help::nerd::wallbash::hang:


fenez said:


> The process is ridiculous, sounds like they are trying to veneer with compound which is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Your wrong


you are out of control 2buck


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> A American trying to lecture the world on how to speak "English"
> 
> First you guys half to learn how to spell things right:thumbup:


half is wrong 2Beans it is have


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

:blink:


Bazooka-Joe said:


> half is wrong 2Beans it is have


:blink: ...


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## Leoricsbride (Mar 16, 2013)

You haven't talked about prices at all. How much do they pay? seem to have 3 processes (tape and "float", finish? w/e then sand? + paint)


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