# hairline crack problems



## drywalljoe (Apr 10, 2009)

Having issues with random ceiling flat cracks in northeast ohio.

Have to tape in durabond to prevent in cooler/cold weather.

Usually tape in sheetrock all-purpose green. 

Any ideas what's causing this?


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

need more details


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Whitey97 said:


> need more details


need more details!


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Trusses? Prefilling or not? Taper, butt, inside corner? Letting tape dry prior to fill coat? Using paper tape or mesh(mesh must be hot-mudded)? Is job heated properly?


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

drywalljoe said:


> Having issues with random ceiling flat cracks in northeast ohio.
> 
> Have to tape in durabond to prevent in cooler/cold weather.
> 
> ...


Actually, i was having issues myself with some mud (search the forum for that, cant remember exactly what thread that was in).

however, my problem was a mud failure / defect.

again, just give us more info and detail on what's going on.....you have to be a little more elaborate.

if its smth you've never seen before, very well could be a mud defect issue.

i had perfect horizontal cracking thruout the entire house i was doing -- 100% of it. the cracks did not penetrate the tape, but just the mud.

anyways, i dont want to go into too much detail because i was harpin on it in length on my previous threads, but anyways...

good luck, and please provide more info -- we're MORE than glad to help, trust me.

everyone on here is good people, although we can squabble a bit on various topics, at the end of the day, i'd like to think were all a band of brothers!


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

:sailor:


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## jim (Sep 21, 2008)

drywalljoe said:


> Having issues with random ceiling flat cracks in northeast ohio.
> 
> Have to tape in durabond to prevent in cooler/cold weather.
> 
> ...


Go to General Drywall Discussion. Open up the Weldcrete for Drywall Cracking thread. On the first page in one of Customs replies are 3 technical links that are a MUST read. Then, come back and list all the details. Conditions inside and outside, before during and after you performed and we might be able to throw out an opinion. Finding the true cause of a crack problem is almost a forensic science. What sucks is as contractors we go thru all this just to prove it wasnt our fault! i beleive that 99 out of 100 times it isnt, but we still have to fix it, no matter what the cause is. From what you have said so far, i would guess you are dealing with structure movement and atmospheric conditions as the root cause.


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## jim (Sep 21, 2008)

Custom Drywall Svc. said:


> Actually, i was having issues myself with some mud (search the forum for that, cant remember exactly what thread that was in).
> 
> however, my problem was a mud failure / defect.
> 
> ...


i dont reply often, but Custom,I put alot of thought into your 100% cracking dilema. I came to the conclusion that you were victim of a rare ridgeing problem. I have seen this a couple of times in 36 years, just a couple, so thats why i call it rare. The common denominator is time of year, unique framing and design, large open areas, doing EVERYTHING possible to insure a quality job, all under one oddball assortment of roof trusses. At best, bad mud was a contributing factor. The fact that you went to the lengths that u did, to insure a quality job actually minimized your fix. I had one where i had to cut out the ridge,{even though the tape wasnt cracked} and re tape to make it go away. I know its hard to see it , but u were actually lucky that u got away with the fix u DID have to do. If you do keep a close eye on your material performance you WILL eventually catch a manufacturer at fault. Even then.. their liability is limited. The best i ever got was mat. replacement, a box of buck knifes and an explantion in writing of what happened at the factory, a small apology, and a promise to do better on quality control. Legal action would have cost me as much as my total contract price and just wasnt worth it at the time. I wish i had all the money i have lost in this business due to stupid **** beyond my control. I could go on and on. Thats why i dont post much. That and the fact i dont want Whity to pick apart my spelling.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

jim said:


> i dont reply often, but Custom,I put alot of thought into your 100% cracking dilema. I came to the conclusion that you were victim of a rare ridgeing problem. I have seen this a couple of times in 36 years, just a couple, so thats why i call it rare. The common denominator is time of year, unique framing and design, large open areas, doing EVERYTHING possible to insure a quality job, all under one oddball assortment of roof trusses. At best, bad mud was a contributing factor. The fact that you went to the lengths that u did, to insure a quality job actually minimized your fix. I had one where i had to cut out the ridge,{even though the tape wasnt cracked} and re tape to make it go away. I know its hard to see it , but u were actually lucky that u got away with the fix u DID have to do. If you do keep a close eye on your material performance you WILL eventually catch a manufacturer at fault. Even then.. their liability is limited. The best i ever got was mat. replacement, a box of buck knifes and an explantion in writing of what happened at the factory, a small apology, and a promise to do better on quality control. Legal action would have cost me as much as my total contract price and just wasnt worth it at the time. I wish i had all the money i have lost in this business due to stupid **** beyond my control. I could go on and on. Thats why i dont post much. That and the fact i dont want Whity to pick apart my spelling.


Jim,

you are right, i rarely see you posting. but thanks for the input you added above, i appreciate it.........very much so actually.

i 110% agree with you, in that forensic science needs to be involved just to accurately diagnose issues we have -- as drywall subcontractors, and as general contractors do overall. its almost mind-numbing the amnt of factors, internal and external that come into play. And at the end of the day, we as the drywall subcontractor usually are blamed -- or, the general.
the worst thing you can have i feel though, is an uneducated homeowner, let alone drywall company. that is why i pasted those links u mentioned.......the more education out there to the user and consumer, the better overall shape we will be in.

So Jim.....you think it is ridging as my problem? as in, the studs literally twisting -- or, as drywall outsiders call them, "speed bumps" haha.....because they actually look like a traffic speedbump in the wall / clng.

well, i have to slightly disagree with you on a couple things:

first, i disagree with you that ridging is rare (if we in fact ARE talking about the same thing).

ridging, in my experience is not enough to label happening as 'often'....but it is definitely not rare -- not what ive seen.

lets say i do 100 houses.....ill experience some sort of ridging, whether it is minor to extensive in at least 10% of those 100 houses. you may call that rare, i dont know....but i would call rare 1%.

the specific houses (2 total) that i experienced these mud issues, i can assure you wasnt ridging......because they were definitely not 'speedbumps' i encountered..definitely not.

hell, let me post smth real quick here, so i know were on the same page, i have a great Gypsum Association link for u guys.

http://www.gypsum.org/download.html

for some reason, i couldnt link to the actual article, but go to this link, and scroll to the article:

"REPAIR OF GYPSUM BOARD JOINT RIDGING (GA-221-2000)"

theres actually a lot of other great publications in here as well you guys will find thatll be useful.

i believe i pasted links from here before, as jim mentioned -- but not the ridging one specifically.

anyways, read up jim, and let me know if were even talkin about the same thing.

again, i very much appreciate your reply and input.

thanks.


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## drywalljoe (Apr 10, 2009)

thankyou all for your replys this my first time to this web sight these are production houses and are heated with propane pods or torpedo heaters we tape with paper tape these are only recess flats on the ceilings 99% of the time. allso it is only on ceiling truss we use sheetrock allpurpose inthe green but we will tape one day the next day coat the next day skim if it is dry we normally pre fill big holes with durabond but after the skim coat drys u will starts seeing thes lines in the middle of the flat and then a hairline crack it is driving me crazy recently i spent the day fixing these cracks with 20 min durabond and the next day two of them were back so i fixed them and later that day textured the next day one cracked again and it is aknockdown ceiling so this my frustration


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## drywalljoe (Apr 10, 2009)

also i allways cut the tape out and fix it with durabond the tape usually is notsplit


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## drywalljoe (Apr 10, 2009)

also i have experimented with other kinds of muds even light mud ithink that the mud is still too wet and when it drys it cracks


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

If using the mushroom propane heaters it is not uncommon to crack out a flat above as the heat is just too intense. Why would only tape the ceiling(truss) w/ all-purp? Or are you saying that only the ceilings on trusses are the only place you're getting the cracks? On the fill and skim, are you over-thinning with water? What brand of lite weight? Pro-form Blue, overthinned, has caused this problem on inside corners for me. Also, is the attic insulation getting blown between hanging and taping? Cold air rushing across the back side of the board maybe at play.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

I say NEVER use propane to heat.

and Darrens correct, could be over thinning / over mixing of the mud.

propane is too dirty to heat a house...all the particulates and moisture it can shoot out -- never a great thing.


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## jim (Sep 21, 2008)

Custom Drywall Svc. said:


> Jim,
> 
> you are right, i rarely see you posting. but thanks for the input you added above, i appreciate it.........very much so actually.
> 
> ...


first Custom, let me say that i think u missunderstood me. I didnt mean to imply that ridging is rare, i suggest that u where a victom of a RARE form of ridging. If you look at the illustrations in the explanation of ridging, they are described as TYPICAL. Typically ridging is a speedbump as u call it. I suggest that u had a speedbump that never rose up enough to be visible, but did rise up enough to "bump" your suface mud from behind and loosen it and make it crack. Only twice have i had this happen, in both cases the conditions were identical to your 2 houses. One was for the president of my bank, the other was for the owner of my supply co.{his dream house} The supply co. owner was VERY interested in the 100% cracking that we had. We actually cut sections of the wall out. Identical to the diagrams in the ridging article. We sent in the #'s on the board, tape, muds even had the lumber checked out. You cant imagine the hornets nest he stirred up. I definately got educated in the process. Bottom line, we concluded that it was a combination of many factors that worked together to cause this house to move, expand, shrink etc in such a way that the result was a slight ridging below the surface that caused the cracking. THE FIX? Here is what we did. NOTHING for 2 days. in those days the furnace was installed. i cooked the house for 48 hrs @ 80 degrees. opened it up and cooled it off for 24 hrs. ran a phillips screwdriver across the cracks, pushing material into the cracks as well as removing loose mat. One coat quickset,skimmed with all purpose light weight and continued on to texture and paint. did not retape anything. i still have acces to both these houses. not one crack returned. 20 yrs later. more later i gotta go


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

I beg to differ w/ Custom on the propane. I'm pretty much down the middle with LP and #1 Kerosene, but only use thermostatic controlled units. Seldom ever run one full-bore all night or until it runs out. When one runs out(kero) is when we experience particulate, or with deisel(Which I never,NEVER use). As to excessive moisture with LP, a few windows MUST be left cracked 1/2" (with any type fuel)or so or the house will just not dry. Sure it'll be warm (or hot) inside, but the moisture will have no place to travel. Even if the mud appears white and dry,and then you close up the house tight, come back the next day, have found all the IS corners all wet again. This usually occurs at the end of the spray day and builder or owner stops in and closes everything up, then the sanders find it the next day too wet to sand. It's happened too many times to count.

Back to Drywalljoe, I do strongly suspect over-thinnig as the culprit. You never did say what brand you're using. I don't know that we've ever had it occur with anything except Pro-Form Blue lite, but suppose it could with any brand. Tapers seem to want to run mud thinner especially in a Mudrunner corner tool as at the proper thickness it damn near will shred the forearm and thinning it out makes the day go better, but the price is hairline cracks. I haven't really seen it in flats too much unless it from the mushroom heater overcooking.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

There's way to much writing to actually read it all


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## drywalljoe (Apr 10, 2009)

happy easter!! well i do typically use pro form lite regularly and nothing else for bedding and skimming i tape the whole house in sheetrock al purpose (too reply to someones question) i am a hand finisher and my mud ithink is usuually ran heavier than other finishers i do have a tool guy who works for me that who uses the same materials idid not no that proform light was prone too crack when its too thin but icant stand plus three


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Magnum (Lenexa KS) is our favorite here and also using Freeman as it is a little cheaper. I don't care much for +3 either, but will use it when Magnum not available. Several years back the Pro-Form problem came to light, and that was the reps only answer and of course he was of no further help. All I will use Pro-form(blue) for is KD spray, it's too soft for anything else. The overspray sands off the Magnum better than anything else I've tried. Also Pro-Form has been raising prices at a greater clip than all other manufacturers.


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## Fergafinish (Apr 14, 2008)

Pre-fill any gap over 1/16 inch w/ set type. Mud has to be loose to run through the taper, and usually what happens is the mud sinks back past the tape, causing a hairline air pocket behind the tape. looks fine till its painted. tapered edges on 5/8 board alot of times has a bevel i.e. boards are tight but the face side has upwards of a 1/4 inch gap ... appears tight. I have elimminated my flat and butt cracks, by prefilling. A co-worker went underboard on the prefilling on my last garage and what do you know... cracks... I'd rather prefill for half a day than try to fix cracked ceilings once its painted...


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## D's (Jan 15, 2009)

I used to have the same problem. If there is any gap in the joints, and sometimes just the rounded edge is enough, then there is a portion of tape that isn't actually fixed to anything. That becomes the weak point where any future movement, stress, etc.. will show up in the form of a crack, ridge, whatever. 

If, and I mean if, I'm using paper tape I prefill first with setting compound and always use taping compound. For the flats, I prefer mesh tape 1st coated with setting compound. I find it's faster, the mud gets deep into the joint, and dries fast without shrinking or cracking(very important in the cold!).



Good luck!
D'S


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

jim said:


> first Custom, let me say that i think u missunderstood me. I didnt mean to imply that ridging is rare, i suggest that u where a victom of a RARE form of ridging. If you look at the illustrations in the explanation of ridging, they are described as TYPICAL. Typically ridging is a speedbump as u call it. I suggest that u had a speedbump that never rose up enough to be visible, but did rise up enough to "bump" your suface mud from behind and loosen it and make it crack. Only twice have i had this happen, in both cases the conditions were identical to your 2 houses. One was for the president of my bank, the other was for the owner of my supply co.{his dream house} The supply co. owner was VERY interested in the 100% cracking that we had. We actually cut sections of the wall out. Identical to the diagrams in the ridging article. We sent in the #'s on the board, tape, muds even had the lumber checked out. You cant imagine the hornets nest he stirred up. I definately got educated in the process. Bottom line, we concluded that it was a combination of many factors that worked together to cause this house to move, expand, shrink etc in such a way that the result was a slight ridging below the surface that caused the cracking. THE FIX? Here is what we did. NOTHING for 2 days. in those days the furnace was installed. i cooked the house for 48 hrs @ 80 degrees. opened it up and cooled it off for 24 hrs. ran a phillips screwdriver across the cracks, pushing material into the cracks as well as removing loose mat. One coat quickset,skimmed with all purpose light weight and continued on to texture and paint. did not retape anything. i still have acces to both these houses. not one crack returned. 20 yrs later. more later i gotta go


wow.....very interesting.......hmmmmmmm...

now youre getting me thinking.

Thanks for the great, insightful post jim. id love to hear more, but i gotta go as well!


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

Whitey97 said:


> There's way to much writing to actually read it all


i agree


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## drywalljoe (Apr 10, 2009)

Fergafinish said:


> Pre-fill any gap over 1/16 inch w/ set type. Mud has to be loose to run through the taper, and usually what happens is the mud sinks back past the tape, causing a hairline air pocket behind the tape. looks fine till its painted. tapered edges on 5/8 board a lot of times has a bevel i.e. boards are tight but the face side has upwards of a 1/4 inch gap ... appears tight. I have eliminated my flat and butt cracks, by prefilling. A co-worker went underboard on the prefilling on my last garage and what do you know... cracks... I'd rather prefill for half a day than try to fix cracked ceilings once its painted...




This makes sense to me. More than anything else. Thank you. I have noticed the bevels on the 5/8 board were not right. I will try pre-filling and see if it fixes the problem. :thumbup:

I used to use magnum all purpose, my supplier stopped carrying it. I do not care for magnum lightning, does magnum have another lite mud? I have never heard of the Freemans mentioned by [email protected]. Who makes Freemans, who carries it?

Thanks to everyone for your comments.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Freeman is made in Broken Arrow OK. Most supply houses here carry it. I have used their acoustic texture exclusively for 13+ years and their mud occasionally. They also are dealers for Spray-Force and brokered the purchase on my 350 Spray-Force rig in 2001. They have field reps just like USG, but much more helpful. They also have a Speed-Skim product for Level 5 apps they are pushing now and will bring the Mark V out and show you the ropes. I'll call my rep today and see if they sell that far east.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

After checking with the rep. don't believe you'll find any Freeman so far east.


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## tapingfool (Mar 11, 2009)

i just read about this stuff called flex compound..look for it and try it for future hairline cracks..

http://www.magnum-products.com/products/flexJoint.htm


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## A+ Texture LLC (Jan 10, 2009)

tapingfool said:


> i just read about this stuff called flex compound..look for it and try it for future hairline cracks..
> 
> http://www.magnum-products.com/products/flexJoint.htm


That stuff looks pretty cool. They should try to make a hot mud version, that could be the ticket on doublewide marriage lines.


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## tapingfool (Mar 11, 2009)

I just fixed a hairline crack that this lady said she had fixed several times..Well i chiseld off all the repair stuff and made it smooth, I then gouged out the crack, then filled it with this product called patch and paint.It is like flexible spackle..well see what happens..


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## drywalljoe (Apr 10, 2009)

I used that mud a little. we used it in cathedral peaks for about 4 houses in a row but i stopped because i realized i had never used it before and didnt know how it was going to hold up but i am glad too say we never had a problem


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## Titan Drywall (Feb 16, 2010)

I always have problems in the winter. I like to keep my houses cool. I do not over heat them. I know when we leave they will be cold again, so you are heating a house and then taking it back to cold again...never a good thing. I dont burn much heat just enough to keep it above 32. I let my tape coat dry. I mean dry like 3 or 4 days. Maybe this is too much, but when you have problem its not. The best thing is to check under your tape. It will look dry, but under it will still be damp or wet. Peel some back and check, or press your finger nail in and see. I feel all of your pain. I am already touching up on cold weather houses this season...oh boy


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

We used Magnum flex mud a fee years ago..... Seems like there was two different MUDs, one to fill with and one to skim with. Problem was it was about $30 a pail. Don't recall ever having it crack, but $60 extra for mud, for the big vault, was a bit much. And then to be sure that was the only place it got used.... Don't think it behaved like regular mud, finishers had trouble getting it to lay on properly.


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## drywalljoe (Apr 10, 2009)

i want to thank everyone for there advice for my problem. we switched to magnum products we also have been taping garages in durabond . also we tryed prefilling the actuall seam on the ceilings which worked very well .as well as kept really good heat.also we made sure the ceilings are blown in before we tape them . my hairline crack problem has almost disappeared we had one house that had bad heat that cracked bad but it was the only one i think that the combo of everything fixed my problem thankyou for your help:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Bazooka-Joe (Dec 31, 2010)

Custom Drywall Svc. said:


> Actually, i was having issues myself with some mud (search the forum for that, cant remember exactly what thread that was in).
> 
> however, my problem was a mud failure / defect.
> 
> ...



Just answered your own question, get some serious glue mud or Fas-set


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