# 5 minute durabond



## srman

I am a drywall contractor out of va. I cover all areas of the drywall spectra. I sub houses out and try and stay busy doing repairs myself. I use five minute gold bond and try and complete everything under 7 boards in two trips, I tape, coat and skim everything twice on the first trip and come back to touch up and check for any shrinking on the second. I just picked up some work from a fire and water restoration company that called me today with a ceiling job they want me to do friday. No problem, but they want me to have it paint ready on friday also. Since this is my first job for them and they can keep me busy I told them I would do it but I am skeptical about the great possibility it will shrink and I want it to look perfect. Does anyone have any pointers on how I can lessen my chances of it shrinking. I am not a fan at all of mesh tape because of its lack of quality verses paper tape but Im thinking that if I meshed the factory joints and taped the butts and angles maybe that would help.


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## DSJOHN

Get some Fiba fuse if possible,tape and coat immediately with 20 then about an hour later skim super tight,wait 10 min and coat all tight again, sand when dry, prime with kilz or bullseye,and paint 2 hours later!!


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## joepro0000

option 1-
Paper tape, skim, prime, re-touch up, sand, reprime and paint or

option 2 -
Paper tape, 20 min 1st coat, sand and skim 2th coat, use a heat gun to dry it and sand it, prime, touch up, and paint.


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## eazyrizla

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 4 characters.


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## Saul_Surfaces

I agree with DS. Fibafuse is nice with hot mud. You get mechanical bonding in addition to the glue, it beds reasonablly tight, and it dries good. I still prefer paper with regular mud (perhaps simply because of habit, but for hot mud I use fibafuse all the time now)


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## MercuryArc

I agree on the Fibafuse. It may be hot mud, but in my opinion , the paper doesn't dry as fast as the mud sets up. I opened up a spot where there was a ridge in the mud and the tape was soggy still. The Fibafuse doesn't absorb water. 

And maybe it doesn't matter and I just think it does. I'm just a big fan if Fibafuse. It's the profile of paper with the qualities of mesh.


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## Muddauber

MercuryArc said:


> I agree on the Fibafuse. It may be hot mud, but in my opinion , the paper doesn't dry as fast as the mud sets up. I opened up a spot where there was a ridge in the mud and the tape was soggy still. The Fibafuse doesn't absorb water.
> 
> And maybe it doesn't matter and I just think it does. I'm just a big fan if Fibafuse. It's the profile of paper with the qualities of mesh.



 Mesh has qualities?:laughing:


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## MIKE FROM NH

I was lucky to have bought a few (5) 18lbs bags of ES 5 a couple years ago from S&W. In any event Fibafuse is a great product period. As others mentioned it lays flat, bonds great, doesn't absorb water etc. However mesh tape use with setting mud is more the sufficent IMO. To get a ceiling done in one day (painted) is ambitious! I would stick to the ES 5 or 20 and tape coat, skim (with bucket mud) it all out and sand, prime, paint day 2. Drop the humidity to 50% or lower and run a fan...Low humidity and air movement is key. And likely the only thing you can do to deal with potential shrinkage.


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## MIKE FROM NH

Muddauber said:


> Mesh has qualities?:laughing:


Whats ur beef with mesh???


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## 2buckcanuck

MIKE FROM NH said:


> Whats ur beef with mesh???


tons of post on this site with the "mesh vs paper tape" war.read them when ever you can get the chance.biggest number one argument on this site:thumbsup::yes:


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## MIKE FROM NH

2buckcanuck said:


> tons of post on this site with the "mesh vs paper tape" war.read them when ever you can get the chance.biggest number one argument on this site:thumbsup::yes:


Its all a matter of opioion, the war is pretty lame. Mesh gets a bad rap because it gets used with ready mix dry type mud. It should be used with setting type...When have you used mesh with setting type, and the joint failed? Further can you prove that if taped with paper and AP that it would not failed? The answer is no. Its all personal prefrance. It has nothing to do with quaility. IOM. I have NEVER had a joint fail to my knowledge using mesh and setting mud.


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## Final touch drywall

I just did 3 24x16 patches in a ceiling in 3 hrs.In a home that had a water leak,the owner cut 3 holes to let the water drain.
My job consisted of the following: 
Cutting out the holes square, to cutting the sheetrock,to screwing the rock up.Then mesh,3 coats of 20 min easy sand.With the fan blowing & a/c on, & never needed to pull out the sand pole once.:thumbsup: The 24 inch knife can be yer best friend.
The owner painted that night


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## 2buckcanuck

MIKE FROM NH said:


> Its all a matter of opioion, the war is pretty lame. Mesh gets a bad rap because it gets used with ready mix dry type mud. It should be used with setting type...When have you used mesh with setting type, and the joint failed? Further can you prove that if taped with paper and AP that it would not failed? The answer is no. Its all personal prefrance. It has nothing to do with quaility. IOM. I have NEVER had a joint fail to my knowledge using mesh and setting mud.


 ok I'm game,lets dance
to start ,paper tape is king,mesh tape must sir pass not equal paper tape in quality,speed of use,reliability,or price to be king.
you state you must use hot muds with mesh for it to work,ok sheet rock or durabond is a bonding agent( *Bond*: The union of materials by adhesives.)mixed with a accelerator (Accelerator:  Usually part B of an adhesive formula, it causes and/or speeds the resin’s curing process.)notice the word BOND in the product called durabond. Drywall taping compound (not all purpose or lite weight)is a adhesive (*Adhesive*: A material employed to attach one solid to another so that the two solids may function as a single unit.)see the difference !!!!would you dare laminate drywall to concrete walls with durabond or Taping mud.To me if compared to body work on a car ,mesh tape is rivets as apposed to welding.
try experimenting with some scrap dry wall,join two together with mesh,two together with proper mud and tape,coat them,let dry.then put some form of pressure to each (bend them)see which one cracks first.
new construction about movement and elimination of shrinkage ,hence; silent joist, spanning joist/belt with drywall,expansion joints,steel stud for non bearing walls,1x2 steel for truss lift etc....mesh tapers keep saying it's tough and strong and wont move....bull sh*t we still building log houses or SOMETHING.
why don't you mesh tapers just start sticking duct tape on the walls?? but keep it up,cause it's not you guys fixing your work ,it's me, thanks 
here's something I got from one of mudstar's post (thanks mudstar)
The CSA and ASTM standards and Gypsum Association
Joint compounds vary according to use and drying time. Most types of jointing compounds dry rather than “set”. Fast setting joint compounds should not be used with mechanical finishing tools. The rapid setting action of joint compounds is the cause of unsatisfactory joints. Major problem areas are:
 Rapid setting action causes excessive shrinkage, resulting in a brittle joint that eventually cracks
Joint or all-purpose compound should be used for embedding tapes. All purpose or topping compound should be used for finishing
http://www.awccbc.org/man/section9-6intro.htm here's the link


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## 2buckcanuck

MIKE FROM NH said:


> Its all a matter of opioion, the war is pretty lame. Mesh gets a bad rap because it gets used with ready mix dry type mud. It should be used with setting type...When have you used mesh with setting type, and the joint failed? Further can you prove that if taped with paper and AP that it would not failed? The answer is no. Its all personal prefrance. It has nothing to do with quaility. IOM. I have NEVER had a joint fail to my knowledge using mesh and setting mud.


 sorry I'm bored ,but this is more of a personal attack (i guess) ...So mike from NH ,when you deal with a engineer ,architect or inspector,who have years of school or experience,Or say a superviser, builder,general contractor or fellow taper with years of experience or have accumulated FACTS and knowledge.And they command you to use paper tape ,do you state "it's all a matter of opinion ,personal preference,has nothing to do with quality,and to the BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE your work has never cracked.WOW..........you a beginner,me 30 years
Old timer once told me " you can screw a thousand women,but screw one goat,and guess what they call you"........did a house once, a long time ago in mesh tape with hotmud,took me a long time to get rid of that term GOAT F**KER...but I'm a pro now:whistling2:


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## kgphoto

It is interesting to hear about your hot mud in Canada shrinking. In the US, that is one of the selling points of setting mud in that is does not or has less shrinkage than drying type muds.

I also wouldn't get too hung up on the meaning of the words in product names. Think of all the "low fat", "green", "new and improved" products that are out there.


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## MIKE FROM NH

2buckcanuck said:


> sorry I'm bored ,but this is more of a personal attack (i guess) ...So mike from NH ,when you deal with a engineer ,architect or inspector,who have years of school or experience,Or say a superviser, builder,general contractor or fellow taper with years of experience or have accumulated FACTS and knowledge.And they command you to use paper tape ,do you state "it's all a matter of opinion ,personal preference,has nothing to do with quality,and to the BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE your work has never cracked.WOW..........you a beginner,me 30 years
> Old timer once told me " you can screw a thousand women,but screw one goat,and guess what they call you"........did a house once, a long time ago in mesh tape with hotmud,took me a long time to get rid of that term GOAT F**KER...but I'm a pro now:whistling2:


WOW.....you must be right cause you been slinging mud longer than I've been breathing...Tell you what.. BFD get over yourself.

I have worked for companies with the IUPAT-Boston, (painters union) that used the mesh tape / setting mud method. I have used with no issues IN MY OWN FU CKIN HOUSE. No problems! Open your mind YOU COULD be wrong...


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## zack 02

It must have been your firsy finish job if you meshed the whole ****in house never heard of such a thing


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## cazna

I got called in to look over a house that was finished in march this year, it has underfloor heating and catches a lot of natural light so heats up like a glass house, Another plasterer used setting and its amazing how much things have shrunk and the joins look terrable, many have peeked out right in the centre of the joins and a lot of screw heads are sticking out too, not popped its still solid just peaking out, one good crack below a window, obviously the framing has finished drying and moved a little as well, so the owner is very pissed at the finish of his new 500k home and wants answers, Hey 2buck could this be a bad case of setting compound and delayed shrinkage as you have mentioned?? But why has the centre of the joins got a peek in them and the screws are peeking out not in?? bit puzzeled on this, any advice would be very helpful.


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## taper71

Cazna . If that were me I would be making a call to the manufacter or rep in your area to see what they have to say . I have never seen hot mud shrink and I live in Canada, but admit that I do not use it enough to give a professional opinion.


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## proficient Mudder

cazna said:


> I got called in to look over a house that was finished in march this year, it has underfloor heating and catches a lot of natural light so heats up like a glass house, Another plasterer used setting and its amazing how much things have shrunk and the joins look terrable, many have peeked out right in the centre of the joins and a lot of screw heads are sticking out too, not popped its still solid just peaking out, one good crack below a window, obviously the framing has finished drying and moved a little as well, so the owner is very pissed at the finish of his new 500k home and wants answers, Hey 2buck could this be a bad case of setting compound and delayed shrinkage as you have mentioned?? But why has the centre of the joins got a peek in them and the screws are peeking out not in?? bit puzzeled on this, any advice would be very helpful.


I think understanding the products used plays the biggest part of finishing. If you use a compound that has not completly dried, you will carry that moisture to the next coat and in the end you will have a slick sanded finish but with unstable joint fill.
I see alot of finishers that will mound up drywall compound on screws, nails and joints thinking that is proper way to level it, when all they are doing is creating a raised area that will show in the paint everytime in a well lit area.
I think this is the problem you are having is to much mud build up over top of moisture ending in disaster.

Bill


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## 2buckcanuck

cazna
when your stating peaked out on the joints ,do you mean a line,right wear the joint/crack would be ,looks like you could scrap it off with a knife but you can't,thats from hot muds,screw mud swelling,someone wrote a good post on this and cant find it for you (step forward if you know who you are)
you already know the answers cazna but we will try to address them so you can explain to H.O. so he will trust you to do his job.
-most materials used in a house are conductors of moisture ,wood,concrete,drywall,taping compounds etc....
-next is the type of weather or season home was built under,was it winter or summer,raining or humid,hot or cold etc...
-so next question is how did they control their environment well building,did they supply heat,dehumidifier,have furnace running and so on
-then the house settling things that were slowly learning to control like truss lift,spanning belts with drywall,silent joist opposed to 2x10etc (big one) expansion joints,drywall not touching floor etc...
-then theres bad work done by tradesmen ,concrete,framers,drywall (just stating this one for did a huge commercial job in London ,sir adam beck project,everything cracking,traced it to the concrete,big law suits)
-then there's ....dare I say TAPERS can screw things up....whole new tread there
-and then there's mr painter who can screw things up,one example,makes one can of paint into three cans by adding water
so when all the above things are done wrong,that's when you hear the expression .........TAPER FIX !!!!!!!


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## cazna

Hey thats awsome, thanks a lot for the replys :thumbsup:
Thats about what i was thinking as well 2buck, great write up though, im not so good at putting it into writing or trying to explain it to the tradesman around me sometimes even though i have a fair idea whats up, and yes many of the joins have that peek right in the centre that looks like it could be scraped or sanded off exactly as you descrided it, This place was built over summer there is a very long wall in the hallway that was lined in stand up way that catches a lot of light and not level 5 at around 2.9metres high, this house is a mono pitched roof and the ceilings are lined with plywood grooved thank god or these would be cracking up to, then the painters used the cheapest sealer you can get and rolled it with small paint rollers in a warm day so paint flashed bad, then tryed a roll on level 5 that spikes out really bad and they tryed to hand sand it back becouse they dont have a power sander, yes didnt work very well so then got some flat paint to try and hide it all, still didnt work, not suprised, and now its all peeked and shrunk, so the owner wants answers and you cant blame him at all. 
We dont control things with heaters and dehumids here, maybe we need to, or when houses are having underfloor heating get it fired up before its lined out to dry the house out, not when its finished as they are now.
I have tryed to explain things as best as i can as to whats happened to everyone involved, not the plasterer or painters they are not welcome back, So the builder who is a top guy and runs a great crew just are not aware that these things can happen wants me to try and fix things up and repaint the best i can, Strange i know but i almost like the challange and its a chance to test some things out, like a roll and trowel 2 coats over the nasty wall and repaint to see how much that improves it.
I should add that is only really been in the last 5 years the bigger designed homes have been getting built where i live so its all a bit new to everyone involved.

This is a good little write up from my supplier

http://www.drywalldirect.co.nz/Drywall-Direct/Technical-Info.php

Any more info you guys have would be great, thanks very much :thumbsup:


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## cazna

proficient Mudder said:


> I think understanding the products used plays the biggest part of finishing. If you use a compound that has not completly dried, you will carry that moisture to the next coat and in the end you will have a slick sanded finish but with unstable joint fill.
> I see alot of finishers that will mound up drywall compound on screws, nails and joints thinking that is proper way to level it, when all they are doing is creating a raised area that will show in the paint everytime in a well lit area.
> I think this is the problem you are having is to much mud build up over top of moisture ending in disaster.
> 
> Bill


 

Thanks bill, I think your right on the to much build up over moisture thing, thats going to be a handy point for me to use to help explain things, Cheers :thumbsup:


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## Kiwiman

Hey Caz, sounds like a classic case of over cooking, even if your mud was bone dry the same thing can happen when a house gets too dehydrated afterwards. I know what the humidity is like over your side of the alps which would have made it worse after the dry heating was introduced, when you fix it make sure it's well baked again.


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## luckyrabbit

I've read this post and have tried to find others regarding a question I have?

I don't do a lot of small patch jobs (I find they're not worth the time to explain to a customer to charge 150 for a couple of 4x4 or 4x8 patches) not to mention am I missing something, For me it would take a hot mud coat with 20 or 45 then lightly scrap the ridges and do a thicker skim coat. Which for me would make me do a second trip because I'm not sitting there for 1 or 2 hours drying this with a hair dryer or heat gun.

So your looking at putting the patch in and coating 3 hours then another trip. Any tricks to speed this or does this seem about right or Am I just too picky on how good my finish should be. My price is probably low but how would you convince a customer to pay more because some peolple only look at price?


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## Bazooka-Joe

luckyrabbit said:


> I've read this post and have tried to find others regarding a question I have?
> 
> I don't do a lot of small patch jobs (I find they're not worth the time to explain to a customer to charge 150 for a couple of 4x4 or 4x8 patches) not to mention am I missing something, For me it would take a hot mud coat with 20 or 45 then lightly scrap the ridges and do a thicker skim coat. Which for me would make me do a second trip because I'm not sitting there for 1 or 2 hours drying this with a hair dryer or heat gun.
> 
> So your looking at putting the patch in and coating 3 hours then another trip. Any tricks to speed this or does this seem about right or Am I just too picky on how good my finish should be. My price is probably low but how would you convince a customer to pay more because some peolple only look at price?


think you miss understood patch all ya want, we just don't run it regularly is all us Homies are saying


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## cdwoodcox

luckyrabbit said:


> I've read this post and have tried to find others regarding a question I have?
> 
> I don't do a lot of small patch jobs (I find they're not worth the time to explain to a customer to charge 150 for a couple of 4x4 or 4x8 patches) not to mention am I missing something, For me it would take a hot mud coat with 20 or 45 then lightly scrap the ridges and do a thicker skim coat. Which for me would make me do a second trip because I'm not sitting there for 1 or 2 hours drying this with a hair dryer or heat gun.
> 
> So your looking at putting the patch in and coating 3 hours then another trip. Any tricks to speed this or does this seem about right or Am I just too picky on how good my finish should be. My price is probably low but how would you convince a customer to pay more because some peolple only look at price?


5 minute mud is your friend on patch jobs or 20 mixed with hot or dirty water. Price accordingly T/M just don't tell customer you're charging 25 or more an hour figure how many hours it will take and give them a lump sum price. Most homeowners will freak if they think about the fact that you are charging more than they make an hour. And what is wrong with sitting waiting for mud to dry so long as you're getting paid for it.


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## chris

Spike your topping with some fixall.... if youre in a hurry. I personally like to use reg. mud for finish coat also. It is a better way IMO. Puttin a lil fixall in with your topcoat speeds it right up and edges are still forgiving


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## moore

It's fast setting compound not fast drying.. It says on the bag finish patches in one trip....NOT TRUE! Each pass has to completly cure before the next..A hair dryer wont cut It.. 

Just because it turns white don't mean it's dry..


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## cdwoodcox

moore said:


> It's fast setting compound not fast drying.. It says on the bag finish patches in one trip....NOT TRUE! Each pass has to completly cure before the next..A hair dryer wont cut It..
> 
> Just because it turns white don't mean it's dry..


Correct but by the time they come to paint the next day it should be good. I don't need it to fully cure just dry enough to not pin hole.


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## SlimPickins

I dunno about having a patch ready for paint the same day you do it. I've done a couple of those and they never turn out very good. I suppose if no one cares if they can see it then no big deal:whistling2: I've never tried a heat gun (seen someone using one once and laughed pretty hard when I went around the corner), but I can see it working if you were patient enough.


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## kgphoto

I have done a lot of patches in my work. I use the 5 minute Easy Sand by Hamilton, now Westpac. Never had a problem, with painting the same day. Of course, I always spot prime with 123 and feather both the primer and top coat with a roller, into the wall.


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## SlimPickins

kgphoto said:


> I have done a lot of patches in my work. I use the 5 minute Easy Sand by Hamilton, now Westpac. Never had a problem, with painting the same day. Of course, I always spot prime with 123 and feather both the primer and top coat with a roller, into the wall.


Smooth-wall? You can get away with it on just about anything else, but smooth and salt&pepper orange peel not so much. Hell, I'll even texture with hot-mud.


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## kgphoto

Hey Slim,

I am not sure if you are saying it can or cannot be done to smooth wall. That is almost all I do and it works fine. I also do orange peel and some hand textures on occasion and I use it there too. Of course for larger areas, I use 20 min. mud, but we are only talking patches here.


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## chris

I wouldnt recommend using for finish coat. It seems to flash different when painted unless you are using good painters and paint:whistling2:nothing beats a topcoat with a regular set mud (too many names) edges sand in much easier and better. It can be done with 5 minute just IMO wouldnt recommend


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## SlimPickins

kgphoto said:


> Hey Slim,
> 
> I am not sure if you are saying it can or cannot be done to smooth wall. That is almost all I do and it works fine. I also do orange peel and some hand textures on occasion and I use it there too. Of course for larger areas, I use 20 min. mud, but we are only talking patches here.


I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that every done-in-a-day hot mud patch that I have done shrunk enough to be able to see it when I went back at a later date. I'm not talking horrendous ugliness, but I could see it.........and I pride myself on "where was that patch again?" patching. I like to finish with an air-dry topping compound and sand and sponge to blend the following day. It's an extra trip, but I don't do it for free and I'm always happy with the results.


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## boco

SlimPickins said:


> I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that every done-in-a-day hot mud patch that I have done shrunk enough to be able to see it when I went back at a later date. I'm not talking horrendous ugliness, but I could see it.........and I pride myself on "where was that patch again?" patching. I like to finish with an air-dry topping compound and sand and sponge to blend the following day. It's an extra trip, but I don't do it for free and I'm always happy with the results.


 If you like an air dry top coat that dries fast and doesnt shrink for finish coat try lafarges Rapid coat. Works very well with hot muds. Sands easy but doesnt sponge so well. Very good product for this type of application. Bring a fan and save yourself the gas and time.


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## Mudshark

boco said:


> Sands easy but doesnt sponge so well. QUOTE]
> 
> :confused1: Huh?


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## boco

Mudshark said:


> boco said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sands easy but doesnt sponge so well. QUOTE]
> 
> :confused1: Huh?
> 
> 
> 
> Using a wet or damp sponge to clean up edges. Usuallly I do this for patches to avoid making dust.
Click to expand...


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## Mudshark

boco said:


> Mudshark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Using a wet or damp sponge to clean up edges. Usuallly I do this for patches to avoid making dust.
> 
> 
> 
> OK boco - thought you meant a sanding sponge (dry)
Click to expand...


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## kgphoto

chris said:


> I wouldnt recommend using for finish coat. It seems to flash different when painted unless you are using good painters and paint:whistling2:nothing beats a topcoat with a regular set mud (too many names) edges sand in much easier and better. It can be done with 5 minute just IMO wouldnt recommend


I agree that I prefer to do two coats of hot mud and two coats of think GP when possible, but that does require the two day trip and some people don't want to pay for that. I don't want to do it, especially if a distance is involved to the job site.



SlimPickins said:


> I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that every done-in-a-day hot mud patch that I have done shrunk enough to be able to see it when I went back at a later date. I'm not talking horrendous ugliness, but I could see it.........and I pride myself on "where was that patch again?" patching. I like to finish with an air-dry topping compound and sand and sponge to blend the following day. It's an extra trip, but I don't do it for free and I'm always happy with the results.


I get to see much of my work months later and I haven't had a problem with my patches shrinking. This may be because I mix it on a hawk like bread dough and don't let it get too wet, as opposed to mixing in a pan or bucket. It is very easy and quick to mix a small quantity on the hawk and kind of a pain to mix in a pan.


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## moore

A/P shrinks hot mud swells.


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## proficient Mudder

IMO, setting mud is all about climate control, if you have any humidity the time of setting will extend. for faster setting, forced warm air over the area and thickest mud able to spread comfortably is best results. for trying to finish a job in a day, I will wait 3 times longer and possibly longer than the bags setting time in a controlled climate, before I skim with a topping mud to help it's drying time.


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> A/P shrinks hot mud swells.


Hot mud shrinks too.


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## Mudshark

SlimPickins said:


> Hot mud shrinks too.


A popular product used here for pre-filling, Synko Con-Fil (which is 45% plaster of Paris) swells :blink:


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## SlimPickins

Mudshark said:


> A popular product used here for pre-filling, Synko Con-Fil (which is 45% plaster of Paris) swells :blink:


We have something, which according to Carpentaper, is quite similar in our Hamilton's Ultra-Fill. It barely does anything, but I believe it swells a tiny bit too. Just like hot mud, it'll shrink into a gap, but swells over-all. Swelling is good, it locks the compound into the joint (like expanding grout in concrete applications).

On the topic, I did a small patch today using 5 minute and topping. I'll go back and sand it and give it a tight touch-up on Monday morning. As much as I would have loved to hit it in one shot, I just don't trust it in critical light smooth applications. Better safe than sorry.


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## joepro0000

before I had my own business, I used to work for a drywall company that I did the final punch-out, and we used to do patches with 20 min and a heat gun all day long. Painters used to paint right behind us the same day.


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## SlimPickins

joepro0000 said:


> before I had my own business, I used to work for a drywall company that I did the final punch-out, and we used to do patches with 20 min and a heat gun all day long. Painters used to paint right behind us the same day.


I've thought about getting a heat gun to shave the extra day. Question........what does it do to the surrounding latex?:blink:


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## boco

Well as long as you dont hold it on the same spot for to long you will have no issues. I use heat guns for small nicks and dents not so much for large blow out patches. For these I like to prefill with durabond 5 Then go with durabond 5 again with ultra thin mesh applied just like paper tape but 2nd coated at the same time. next go with durabond 20. Final coat with lafarge rapid coat. Usually takes about 3 hrs before being ready to sand. Having a dehumidifier, fans and heaters on hand will help prevent delayed shrinking. Just my opinion but doing the 4th coat may be the difference maker.


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## Bazooka-Joe

boco said:


> Well as long as you dont hold it on the same spot for to long you will have no issues. I use heat guns for small nicks and dents not so much for large blow out patches. For these I like to prefill with durabond 5 Then go with durabond 5 again with ultra thin mesh applied just like paper tape but 2nd coated at the same time. next go with durabond 20. Final coat with lafarge rapid coat. Usually takes about 3 hrs before being ready to sand. Having a dehumidifier, fans and heaters on hand will help prevent delayed shrinking. Just my opinion but doing the 4th coat may be the difference maker.


can see it work but I only tape d/bond, then a coat of cream coat, insist to whom ever that me coming around another day to zaperoo another cream coat is worth the effort


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## keithby

You can use mesh tape on all flats using 45 min Easy-sand, run the angles with the same mix and paper tape coating one side as you go. go take a break till it sets. You'll need a blister bush for this step, blister brush all the flats as soon as it sets, this will slick it down and remove stop marks go have lunch! skim all flats with 45 minute easy-sand and coat the other side of the angles, blister brush again. depending on your skill will depend on if you'll have to sand. we do this all the time, up to 25 sheet! 
For small jobs, cut the time with 20 minute easy sand


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## icerock drywall

On big jobs I went from a change from all durabond on my tape coat to 
1.fix any outlets and cover all outlets on seams with fibafuse (for boxing)I like to go over the outlets ( see my other posts )
2. mesh the seams with hotmud (or fiberfuse with All Purpose)
3. mesh butts then add fibafuse with All Purpose 
4. fibafuse all corners with All Purpose
5. nails with light mud

thats my tapecoat :blink:


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## Kiwiman

icerock drywall said:


> On big jobs I went from a change from all durabond on my tape coat to
> 1.fix any outlets and cover all outlets on seams with fibafuse (for boxing)I like to go over the outlets ( see my other posts )
> 2. mesh the seams with hotmud (or fiberfuse with All Purpose)
> 3. mesh butts then add fibafuse with All Purpose
> 4. fibafuse all corners with All Purpose
> 5. nails with light mud
> 
> thats my tapecoat :blink:


So you use fibafuse in the corners, so do I, but I had to buy a descent roller and adjust the angle head properly, fuse works really well in corners once you learn it's limits.


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## kgphoto

Hey Keithby,

What do you mean by "blister brush"? Is that simialar to a lambswool corner roller for applying mud?

I was talk to do butts first so the end of the tape would be covered by the corner tape at the ceiling and the bevel tape in the middle and the base board on the bottom. So, for me, it is butts, tapers and then angles.


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## keithby

Amazon.com: Bon 13-113 Blister Felt Brush: Home Improvement "blister brush'


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## moore

keithby said:


> You can use mesh tape on all flats using 45 min Easy-sand, run the angles with the same mix and paper tape coating one side as you go. go take a break till it sets. You'll need a blister bush for this step, blister brush all the flats as soon as it sets, this will slick it down and remove stop marks go have lunch! skim all flats with 45 minute easy-sand and coat the other side of the angles, blister brush again. depending on your skill will depend on if you'll have to sand. we do this all the time, up to 25 sheet!
> For small jobs, cut the time with 20 minute easy sand


 Fast setting ..not fast drying..
I never had much luck with hot mudding a small job .
after paint the tape line would show through[paper] maybe mesh Is the way to go when pushing out a L4 in one trip. :blink:


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## thefinisher

moore said:


> Fast setting ..not fast drying..
> I never had much luck with hot mudding a small job .
> after paint the tape line would show through[paper] maybe mesh Is the way to go when pushing out a L4 in one trip. :blink:


Need to finish coat with regular mud. If not then sometimes you need to run an additional tight skim coat when using quickset.


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## moore

thefinisher said:


> Need to finish coat with regular mud. If not then sometimes you need to run an additional tight skim coat when using quickset.


 Iv'e tried it every way under the sun bro..

3 coats in one day may work for a Jimmy carter habitat home ,,
but it has never worked for me.


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> Iv'e tried it every way under the sun bro..
> 
> 3 coats in one day may work for a Jimmy carter habitat home ,,
> but it has never worked for me.


It's especially useless when day 2 is a no-go, because 3 coats of mud takes so damn long to dry.

However, a fan, or better yet a de-hu makes it turn out suh-weet. I get to go back and look quite a bit these days, and as long as the coats have enough "body" (ie not super tight) it turns out just right.

Too tight hot-mud/topping= flash, at least when I do it. But then again, I suck.


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## thefinisher

moore said:


> Iv'e tried it every way under the sun bro..
> 
> 3 coats in one day may work for a Jimmy carter habitat home ,,
> but it has never worked for me.


By no way would we do a house this way. NO houses of ours gets hotmud unless it is around a tub or a very bad spot. Only smaller jobs will durabond be supplied, but we always finish with regular mud. We always point-up our jobs and I really don't see a difference in the finish when using durabond to tape and bed.


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## icerock drywall

Kiwiman said:


> So you use fibafuse in the corners, so do I, but I had to buy a descent roller and adjust the angle head properly, fuse works really well in corners once you learn it's limits.


in my inside corners if needed I back fill any gaps with a mud tube with no ball on my tube! then bango the fiber fuse to corner then flush it with my 3 incher. flusher sits in water with a spunge:thumbup:
5 inch knife the 3 ways tight


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## moore

thefinisher said:


> By no way would we do a house this way. NO houses of ours gets hotmud unless it is around a tub or a very bad spot. Only smaller jobs will durabond be supplied, but we always finish with regular mud. We always point-up our jobs and I really don't see a difference in the finish when using durabond to tape and bed.


 I know what you sayin..
A 1 room reno or 25-40 board addition ya gotta get as much done in 1 trip as possible to make anything..

I had a 1 room reno this week . 13 boards 
1st day hung it /prefill ..went to another job [nearby]
2nd trip taped with 45 min waited for it to set then blocked in with 90 min.
3rd trip skim with a/p .
last trip ..textured the ceilings @ sanded the walls..

I had another job 10 minites away so taking this 13 boards didn't hurt me..but If I'd been pressed [long drive] I could have hung @ finished those 13 boards in 2 trips [20min/45min] tho imo that would be pushing It..:thumbsup:


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## moore

SlimPickins said:


> It's especially useless when day 2 is a no-go, because 3 coats of mud takes so damn long to dry.
> 
> However, a fan, or better yet a de-hu makes it turn out suh-weet. I get to go back and look quite a bit these days, and as long as the coats have enough "body" (ie not super tight) it turns out just right.
> 
> Too tight hot-mud/topping= flash, at least when I do it. But then again, I suck.


 Most of the patch /repair work I do are older homes 10-30 years old. More often than not The orginal finish looks so bad,,,my flashing blends in really well.. 

I don't own one of those fancy dustless sanding thingys ..so a few skins are needed for me to cut the sanding down ...But I do agree ..more body with a good sanding Is the way to go.:thumbsup:


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> Most of the patch /repair work I do are older homes 10-30 years old. More often than not The orginal finish looks so bad,,,my flashing blends in really well..
> 
> I don't own one of those fancy dustless sanding thingys ..so a few skins are needed for me to cut the sanding down ...But I do agree ..more body with a good sanding Is the way to go.


For some reason, I'm getting all these jobs 60-80 years old 

I hung a basement this morning, I had to angle the bottom sheets, and scribe the top sheets, taking numbers at every joist :blink:. The ceiling looks like a Hawaiian surfing party. 

It took me 8-1/2 hours to hang 608 sq. ft But, I hardly have any pre-fill to do, so that helps :laughing: I'll use 3-4 bags of set mud to "level" it out. Tell me again why someone wouldn't want to spend the extra $300-400 to flatten the lid out?


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## spacklinfool

try the vario, if used properly you are done in less than 3 hours....first coat is done like second coat, a quick scraping, then a nice polish and your done..ready to paint....no tape required!! and pallets are available thru me....via your local distributor!!


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## thefinisher

spacklinfool said:


> try the vario, if used properly you are done in less than 3 hours....first coat is done like second coat, a quick scraping, then a nice polish and your done..ready to paint....no tape required!! and pallets are available thru me....via your local distributor!!


You still need to make some 20 minute vario at least. I will use 5 minute on some pretty large areas. takes me no time at all when using 5 minute. If vario makes some faster setting products I would be all over it.


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## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> You still need to make some 20 minute vario at least. I will use 5 minute on some pretty large areas. takes me no time at all when using 5 minute. If vario makes some faster setting products I would be all over it.


:whistling2::whistling2:


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## thefinisher

2buckcanuck said:


> :whistling2::whistling2:


 
Those aint even boots! Those uggs aint going to do nothing for the deep sh!t :thumbup:


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## spacklinfool

thefinisher said:


> You still need to make some 20 minute vario at least. I will use 5 minute on some pretty large areas. takes me no time at all when using 5 minute. If vario makes some faster setting products I would be all over it.



say you have a room 12x12....all new....your gonna mix how many batches of 5 minute mix to finish it?


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## 2buckcanuck

thefinisher said:


> Those aint even boots! Those uggs aint going to do nothing for the deep sh!t :thumbup:


For once your right, which of these pics would best suite your post then:whistling2:


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## SlimPickins

spacklinfool said:


> say you have a room 12x12....all new....your gonna mix how many batches of 5 minute mix to finish it?


Infinity? By the time you get the batch mixed it goes off!

Great for a patch that you're standing next to, then you run to get it out of your pan after you hit it. Anything more than that? Not so much....


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## thefinisher

spacklinfool said:


> say you have a room 12x12....all new....your gonna mix how many batches of 5 minute mix to finish it?


In that case I would use 20 minute for a 12x12 room. Would probably use 2 bags to tape and bed, then skim with regular mud. come back next day to sand. 45 minute would be too slow setting for this small of a room. I find that vario would be best for doing pathces, but it just needs to set faster is all.


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## spacklinfool

thefinisher said:


> In that case I would use 20 minute for a 12x12 room. Would probably use 2 bags to tape and bed, then skim with regular mud. come back next day to sand. 45 minute would be too slow setting for this small of a room. I find that vario would be best for doing pathces, but it just needs to set faster is all.


how about a 100 board commercial job all standups????
I mixed the vario 120 ran the box, by the time I finished the first coat with no tape, I began the 12 inch box, and had it done in a day...you gonna use 20 min mix on that as well...and tape?!?!


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## JustMe

thefinisher said:


> In that case I would use 20 minute for a 12x12 room.


If a 12X12 room is more than a "pretty large area":



thefinisher said:


> *I will use 5 minute on some pretty large areas. takes me no time at all when using 5 minute.*


then what's a "pretty large area"? A closet?

Forget the boots. Time for the hip waders.


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## icerock drywall

thefinisher said:


> In that case I would use 20 minute for a 12x12 room. Would probably use 2 bags to tape and bed, then skim with regular mud. come back next day to sand. 45 minute would be too slow setting for this small of a room. I find that vario would be best for doing pathces, but it just needs to set faster is all.


45 would work just fine to get the job done in one day
just use dirty water for your next 2 coats / I never use 5 min or 20 ...you dont need it! save a little of that dirty water for a quick patch if you need it.
..how many bags to you use in a 12x12 room (12) lol and how much do you mix up at a time ( a cup ) ..o you do one corner at a time. thats 40 mins to do all your corners.
so if you use 45 you can get the room done in 4 hrs and if you use 5 min you can take all day ...all 10 hr ...:whistling2:


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## thefinisher

spacklinfool said:


> how about a 100 board commercial job all standups????
> I mixed the vario 120 ran the box, by the time I finished the first coat with no tape, I began the 12 inch box, and had it done in a day...you gonna use 20 min mix on that as well...and tape?!?!


Don't do any commercial work..... Also it is not cost effective for us to use this product on any large scale work. As far as I'm concerned it is only useful on the joints not angles which will have to be taped. I feel like this product would be most useful to us for patches but we just need it to set a lot faster is all.


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## thefinisher

JustMe said:


> If a 12X12 room is more than a "pretty large area":
> 
> 
> 
> then what's a "pretty large area"? A closet?
> 
> Forget the boots. Time for the hip waders.


I will will use 5 minute for doing large patches or a few sheets if I can. Hey I got some *chest *waders if it gets deep :thumbsup:


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## thefinisher

icerock drywall said:


> 45 would work just fine to get the job done in one day
> just use dirty water for your next 2 coats / I never use 5 min or 20 ...you dont need it! save a little of that dirty water for a quick patch if you need it.
> ..how many bags to you use in a 12x12 room (12) lol and how much do you mix up at a time ( a cup ) ..o you do one corner at a time. thats 40 mins to do all your corners.
> so if you use 45 you can get the room done in 4 hrs and if you use 5 min you can take all day ...all 10 hr ...:whistling2:


Using the dirty water trick is very inconsistent. I use clean water with my 5 minute and it is extremely predictable. Using dirty water is unpredictable, it may set up in 30 minutes or 15. With a 12x12 room I would generally tape it with regular mud and let it dry then come back and bed with 20 then skim with regular to avoid prolonged shrinking. And I never said I would use 5 minute for room that large I said I could use 20 minute. It would only be 11-12 boards lol. If I wanted to push it out in one day for a room that size I could easily use 20. I also agree that 45 minute would do just fine, but 20 is what I would use for something that small.


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## SlimPickins

thefinisher said:


> Using the dirty water trick is very inconsistent. I use clean water with my 5 minute and it is extremely predictable. Using dirty water is unpredictable, it may set up in 30 minutes or 15. With a 12x12 room I would generally tape it with regular mud and let it dry then come back and bed with 20 then skim with regular to avoid prolonged shrinking. And I never said I would use 5 minute for room that large I said I could use 20 minute. It would only be 11-12 boards lol. If I wanted to push it out in one day for a room that size I could easily use 20. I also agree that 45 minute would do just fine, but 20 is what I would use for something that small.


I'd use 45, one batch to tape and hit screws, another to top it (seams, butts, beads). Maybe another pan to hit the tape ridge in the angles. Skim with topping, set up the fan, sand it the next day. Sometimes tape with glass, sometimes with Fibafuse, angles ALWAYS paper. A longer batch will allow you to get more done and you can always find something to do while things kick.....even if it means going outside to smoke a cigarette. The best is doing a quick fill-in as the last batch is kicking, then your new batch goes off almost immediately as the catalyst interacts. :thumbsup:

Sometimes, I'll do everything with 90.....tape & top, screws, beads and then go back over with a blast of 20 to fill any shrinks. It all depends on how the drywall gods are feeling that day. However, I've only done one job with set muds so maybe I'll learn something new on the next one if anyone ever calls me ever again. No one likes having their basement rocked, taped, and textured in 2-1/2 days anyway.


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## icerock drywall

thefinisher said:


> Using the dirty water trick is very inconsistent. I use clean water with my 5 minute and it is extremely predictable. Using dirty water is unpredictable, it may set up in 30 minutes or 15. With a 12x12 room I would generally tape it with regular mud and let it dry then come back and bed with 20 then skim with regular to avoid prolonged shrinking. And I never said I would use 5 minute for room that large I said I could use 20 minute. It would only be 11-12 boards lol. If I wanted to push it out in one day for a room that size I could easily use 20. I also agree that 45 minute would do just fine, but 20 is what I would use for something that small.


you have to know how to use dirty water I quess...I use it all the time on jobs under 30 sheets and I use it all I dont let it go to waist. I masterd the mix becouse I dont want to have to bring 120,90,45,20,5 to a job ..I only need to bring 90 with me and a tub of dirty water if needed:blink:


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## spacklinfool

the vario does flats, butts, nails, inside corners, and beads....mix up a batch of 45 with clean water, lol!! coat everything as if it was a second coat, then 25-30 min (lunch,snack) later scrape..Then polish everything like a third coat....all it has to do is set..not dry to do that...after maybe 20 minutes you can sand edges...never fish eyes or pinholes....then paint .....all with no tape....in one day....


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## thefinisher

spacklinfool said:


> the vario does flats, butts, nails, inside corners, and beads....mix up a batch of 45 with clean water, lol!! coat everything as if it was a second coat, then 25-30 min (lunch,snack) later scrape..Then polish everything like a third coat....all it has to do is set..not dry to do that...after maybe 20 minutes you can sand edges...never fish eyes or pinholes....then paint .....all with no tape....in one day....


 
I guess I don't trust it enough for the very high end houses we do. I tested some vario out in our garage on some board we have hung on our office bathroom and after I banged on the wall the joint cracked which wouldn't happen if you taped it. I followed all the proper instructions but it didn't seem strong enough to endure an entire house. Also how much does a bag cost? We pay $7.25 for a 50lb box of mud. Like I said when we pay by the board and not by the hour, we don't care if it gets done a day sooner if we have to pay more money in materials that aren't proven. Also I would never just sand the edges.... the material needs to completely dry before sanding.


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## spacklinfool

thefinisher said:


> I guess I don't trust it enough for the very high end houses we do. I tested some vario out in our garage on some board we have hung on our office bathroom and after I banged on the wall the joint cracked which wouldn't happen if you taped it. I followed all the proper instructions but it didn't seem strong enough to endure an entire house. Also how much does a bag cost? We pay $7.25 for a 50lb box of mud. Like I said when we pay by the board and not by the hour, we don't care if it gets done a day sooner if we have to pay more money in materials that aren't proven. Also I would never just sand the edges.... the material needs to completely dry before sanding.


Well was there any "play" in the wall it has been tested, I thought I sent that video to you. I will send the test and results..


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## thefinisher

spacklinfool said:


> Well was there any "play" in the wall it has been tested, I thought I sent that video to you. I will send the test and results..


No, wall was fastened securely.


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## harvey randall

*5 minute*



2buckcanuck said:


> cazna
> you sound like a scientist 2buck shinook. what are the answers to these questions that are driveing me toward drink ? why is the moon sometimes orange ? why is a lake blue ? and why did my doctor say i had oligospermia and laughed a cried at the same time. which was kinda weird. harve


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## moore

5 min. greatest product ever!!!!!


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## mld

That was random, Moore.

Tell us some more.:thumbsup:


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## Sir Mixalot

moore said:


> 5 min. greatest product ever!!!!!


Yep! :thumbup:


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## moore

mld said:


> That was random, Moore.
> 
> Tell us some more.:thumbsup:


I just used It for the first time a few days ago...A local supply started carrying It. It gives ya more time than I would of thought .


Worked great for those little holes the sparky leaves for me under the vanity lights....:furious::


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## thefinisher

I usually go through a bag a week. Put a knife full of a/p in with it and it will have more workability and give you a few extra minutes if need be.


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## thefinisher

Now you just need to use it with the fibafuse mat. You will think doing small patches is cheating. 5 minute and fibafuse can fix anything!


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## moore

thefinisher said:


> Now you just need to use it with the fibafuse mat. You will think doing small patches is cheating. 5 minute and fibafuse can fix anything!


That's what I used ! FF and 5 min. SWEET!:thumbup:


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