# the drywall recovery stimulus act



## stan

i am so freaking sick of all the trades ( see auto workers etc ) that get bailed out and given money from the govt. except us. construction is at a all time low. i dont want anything from the govt but it pisses me off to see my tax dollors go to everybody else but me. i want the drywall recovery stimulus act !!!


----------



## 2buckcanuck

uhm......don't you kind of contradict your self here on post 131 http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/us-tapers-so-far-behind-europe-888/index7/


----------



## SlimPickins

I agree, 5+ million vacant homes in the US isn't enough, we need more dammit! I think everyone could agree that we could use another housing bubble right now, and let our kids deal with the fallout. Bring on the bailout!


----------



## stan

2buck you have to take my posts:thumbup: with a grain of salt


----------



## moore

stan said:


> i am so freaking sick of all the trades ( see auto workers etc ) that get bailed out and given money from the govt. except us. construction is at a all time low. i dont want anything from the govt but it pisses me off to see my tax dollors go to everybody else but me. i want the drywall recovery stimulus act !!!


housing is the only thing that can pull us out of this mess. THATS where it started thats what will get itgoing again. [email protected]!


----------



## Bill from Indy

OR....you could deport the 8 some odd million illegals and then there would be that many more american jobs.....hmm...maybe


----------



## 2buckcanuck

governments can do things like building more inter structure things,government housing,grants for nursing homes ,hospitals, etc....but for housing there has to be a market demand 1st.there's interest rates but that's more of a bank thing.
It gets too confusing,some say the market always fixes it self,others say help it.
I remember you never use to hear,,,there was x amount of housing starts in the month of April....it was back page news.It was always,manufacturing this,auto pack that.But over time the Government realized how Important the housing market is.It supplements service industries,furniture stores ,transportation,land taxes,etc.....
So give it time,they know how important it is ,I'm sure they can't wait to collect their tax revenue from it


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

Bill from Indy said:


> OR....you could deport the 8 some odd million illegals and then there would be that many more american jobs.....hmm...maybe



So if you deport the 8 million illegals, are you going to find 8 million non illegals to do the job? I doubt it. that is a pro/con argument. you can find white guys to do it. the price is going to be alot higher, thus raising the cost of a home by probably 10k more then what it should be maybe more depending on how many are in the trade. Who can you blame, the illegal people here or the legal people that hire them? 

Lets start with this idea. 
Does, Lowes, Home Depot, Grocery stores, GAS, target, wal mart, best buy, dillards, macys, DISNEY WORLD, universal studios, and god knows what else you can think of lower their prices in a bad economy. UMmmm honestly ive never seen it. But you see, construction people are natural born idiots. They lower their prices instead of saying that this is what it is. Sticking to your guns of what used to be will help, but im no rocket ski en tist. Id rather not lower my price, not bust my ass of, and still make the same amount of money in less time as the schmuck that did lower is price. It works very well. In the end, i still wind up broke, just like him, and i still cant pay all my bills, just like him, but i worked a hell of a lot less to do it. Makes more sense.

However i digress. I am all for the illegals here. Just make them legal. from what i remember a bout 300 years ago, noone was even here. and if i remember right, all those illegals ancestors, they were here legally, but we used guns and kicked em out. So really what is illegal. the fact that we forced them out and now tell them they can't come here. or the fact that we forced them out?


----------



## vvdrywall

Well, if you deport the illegals there would be more work for you and I! Ones who citizens. But thats not the point! Why do you think we are in the mess we are right now? Why do you think the economy is shot? Our governor of CA was quoted for saying "the illegal workforce is the reason there has been a production boom over the past 10 years". And if there wasnt a boom we would still be busy and working strong. You can keep paying for them to live here while hopefully the president will acknowledge the issue and do something about it!


----------



## SlimPickins

The_Texture_Guy said:


> . from what i remember a bout 300 years ago, noone was even here. and if i remember right, all those illegals ancestors, they were here legally, but we used guns and kicked em out. So really what is illegal. the fact that we forced them out and now tell them they can't come here. or the fact that we forced them out?


Imagine this country if the Native Americans had deported all the illegals....we definitely wouldn't be in this mess


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

vvdrywall said:


> Well, if you deport the illegals there would be more work for you and I! Ones who citizens. But thats not the point! Why do you think we are in the mess we are right now? Why do you think the economy is shot? Our governor of CA was quoted for saying "the illegal workforce is the reason there has been a production boom over the past 10 years". And if there wasnt a boom we would still be busy and working strong. You can keep paying for them to live here while hopefully the president will acknowledge the issue and do something about it!


We are in this mess because people are to dumb to know when to refuse a loan that may not be best for them. Just because i could get a loan for 350k house, doesn't mean i should take it. 
I was mildly in that mess. I didnt know my loan was adjustable as a first time buyer, but i was at least smart enough to know that at making just 500-600 a week meant i could only afford 1000 a month for a home, and not 2k. Once my loan hit its period for an adjustable rate, my mortage went up to almost 1300. that is quite a difference. That is why this mess happened. I had saved money so i was able to refiniance to a fixed rate which was a smart move on my part.

who is working on the houses doesn't matter. what does matter is where the money goes after. 

You are one of the reasons i feel all construction people should be FORCED to take a month long course and PASS, to be able to get a business license. This way you can understand how the economy works. 

If everyone is paid a wage that is about the same, you wont have low bids. It evens everything out. You can't blame them for wanting a better life? I'm sure you do. 

As well, lets shift the blame to the homeowner or contractor that uses the illegal workers just to pad his pocket. So where does the blame really go? To the illegals doing the work, or the people who use the illegals to do the work? In my opinion, it is to the people who use the illegal workers. If they can't get work, they wouldn't be here correct?

So i will let you blame the illegal workers for it, while i will simply blame the dumb United States citizens who can't add up their bills for paying a mortgage and the contractors that use cheap labor, not to mention all the major home building companies that consistently push for a lower price every 5 seconds and are willing to get rid of a decent contractor over a 5 cent difference in bids? I forgot to mention all the dumb construction company owners that bow down and lower their prices as well. I do not do that.


----------



## vvdrywall

We are talking about 2 different things here. You are blaming the economy on the home loans and banks. Yes, I see your point there. And yes, the contractors are to blame for hiring illegals. But, illegals are here illegally! Thats what it comes down to, there is no "talking" your way around it! The illegals have also decreased labor wages and that includes your wage! I dont know about where u live, but here in CA we are watching wages decrease dramatically and illegals taking our jobs left and right! And yes, it is considered taking my job if they are not a legal citizen. I have no problem if they were here doing it legally for a better life than in mexico! 

My dad worked for a drywall company for 25 years that employed 300 at its high point. 5 years ago he was the last white taper and the company kept cutting his wages because of illegals so much that he was forced out! Now, that company is bankrupt and out of business. Thats just one example or insight into the decline of our jobs. Now I run a drywall business and get to compete against that type of scenario.


----------



## SlimPickins

The_Texture_Guy said:


> We are in this mess because people are to dumb to know when to refuse a loan that may not be best for them. Just because i could get a loan for 350k house, doesn't mean i should take it.
> I was mildly in that mess. I didnt know my loan was adjustable as a first time buyer, but i was at least smart enough to know that at making just 500-600 a week meant i could only afford 1000 a month for a home, and not 2k. Once my loan hit its period for an adjustable rate, my mortage went up to almost 1300. that is quite a difference. That is why this mess happened. I had saved money so i was able to refiniance to a fixed rate which was a smart move on my part.
> 
> who is working on the houses doesn't matter. what does matter is where the money goes after.
> 
> You are one of the reasons i feel all construction people should be FORCED to take a month long course and PASS, to be able to get a business license. This way you can understand how the economy works.
> 
> If everyone is paid a wage that is about the same, you wont have low bids. It evens everything out. You can't blame them for wanting a better life? I'm sure you do.
> 
> As well, lets shift the blame to the homeowner or contractor that uses the illegal workers just to pad his pocket. So where does the blame really go? To the illegals doing the work, or the people who use the illegals to do the work? In my opinion, it is to the people who use the illegal workers. If they can't get work, they wouldn't be here correct?
> 
> So i will let you blame the illegal workers for it, while i will simply blame the dumb United States citizens who can't add up their bills for paying a mortgage and the contractors that use cheap labor, not to mention all the major home building companies that consistently push for a lower price every 5 seconds and are willing to get rid of a decent contractor over a 5 cent difference in bids? I forgot to mention all the dumb construction company owners that bow down and lower their prices as well. I do not do that.


This is a pretty good synopsis, and while illegal immigrants to this country are playing their part in driving down wages, that's been going on long enough to not be considered a factor in our current "economical experiment". I would say that vv's situation is more likely brought about as a result of the current state, rather than the driving force behind it. Contractors are seeking any opportunity to shave costs, and will do it any way they can. Contractors are taking advantage of the situation, but I think the motivating factor is not to generate more profit (at least not in all cases), but to stay afloat in the instability we're all seeing. We were recently underbid by $0.40 a foot. When you're talking about a tricky job bid at $1.05 and everything calculated to just make wages, that's a HUGE difference.

I can't speak for the habits of all Americans here, but there are a good percentage of them who consistently behave irresponsibly in regards to spending, consumption, etc. I myself was once overly irresponsible, and I continue to pay the consequences for my actions. I've been doing a lot of reading lately on sustainable building, and more than just being educational on new techniques for the age-old shelter quest, I'm exposed to philosophical discussions on the insatiable desires of the American Public. We as a people are responsible for the mess we're in, and we as a people are responsible for getting ourselves out of it. We're going to need to stop pursuing "cheaper is better", as well as start thinking about how many of our "wants" are just that...."wants". It's ridiculous to see a couple with no children, and no plans for them, to buy or build a 4000 sq. ft. home. Especially when there are rooms that get used for an hour or two a month. I apologize for rambling...in general I feel that my having opinions about these things is a waste of time and energy (when I should be focusing more on direct action), but it's a shame to see people blaming the wrong people for what they see as an injustice imposed upon them.

Nice post Texture Guy.


----------



## Bill from Indy

I won't get into a debate and get stuff stirred up....or that wasn't my point in the above post i should say.....

All I know is 8-10yrs ago, I couldn't stop sweating.....ran 10 guys and did 1+mil s.f./yr.....now, I have a hard time even breaking a sweat...We didn't have to beat the phone down trying to find work....I would come home with at least 2 messages every day wanting stuff done.....not the case now....GRANTED...most of the mexican/south american workforce here are residential, but now that the houses have dried up, they are moving into commercial work...I REFUSE to do work for half the price I did 10 YEARS ago...I get what I want or I keep the couch happy..don't bother me....Actually, I feel it is time to do other things...not only for the work but to be honest, I got/get burnt out on finishing quickly now...I started doing metal framing and doors/trim...whatnot...and find it more enjoyable...no painters on your back thinking they can work the sandpole faster than me...BUT...GDAMN fire rated commercial doors 3-0/7-0 are some heavy bassturds..

I just really get a wedgie feeling when a multi millionare wants to sweat me over 3-500 bucks....and not only that....been working for for years.....it's all about get it done now and worry about "it" later.....no quality no passion....no respect for anyone..... or I should say drywallers...why i started doing some other stuff before I ended up incarcerated....lol


----------



## vvdrywall

Agreed Bill! It is frustrating when people are blind to certain issues. If everyone was just honest and respectful of each other it would be much better. I have no problem with who is working as long as they are doing it fairly and respectfully! I wouldnt go to another country and take advantage of their system if it was me! I have more integrity than that! 
The dollar is the most important thing to many contractors before quality or relationship, there is somthing to be said about that!


----------



## [email protected]

Drywall stimulus? You already have that fellas. All these libraries, schools, military bases, and tax-funded projects etal, all Davis-Bacon work in general -- all of it designed to pay our hourly guys a ridiculous wage we'd never pay otherwise. So for the employee, yep, you are indeed receiving a stim shot. The wretched Drywall Contractor though, is still being squeezed.

Case in point: A city hall reno paid hangers/finishers about $4.00 over scale and the military work one zip code away was more like $16 over. Miss one demising wall with those rates and your into red ink these days. Not to mention that stim money is a bare minimum, 90-120 days out......if you keep on your GC like a dirty shirt for your check. Couple that with dealing with a Corps of Engineers bureaucrat that can and likely pencil whip you too the poorhouse and it stimulates the living crap right out of me.


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

The real issue is money. You stay in business to make money, so the way that is accomplished is to get work done as cheap as possible.

Look at 99% of your apparel. how do you think the workers at the levi plant felt when they shut down so they could make the jeans in mexico. I have a cousin who is convinced that her father lost his job as a steel manufacturer at 
Ford because people aren't buying American cars. She is blind to the fact that Ford decided to get their steel from Mexico because it was cheaper. It has nothing to do with people buying. Big business always try to cut costs and increase bonuses. 

Believe it or not. I have stopped buying most types of chicken from the grocery store unless it is organic because that chicken is raised in farms where the company dosent give a crap and they hire cheap labor to do that work. The United States lets them get away with it because it is such a huge industry. 
tyson, perdue, and a two others all do this. they don't care about the workers, they just care about their bottom line. 

By brother says its not true. They are simply giving the public what they want. I tell that anyone always wants stuff cheaper, they just don't know the cost the goes into getting stuff cheaper. people killed in factories and those companies not even taking a moment of silence; That movie is Food Inc. btw in case you want to watch itl.
We live in a very money hungry countryl
I to would rather sit at home then take a low wage. At this rate, mexicans may as well stay their. I employ a brazilian, but he has all his paperwork, he will not work for a cheap rate just because..... He wants a fair wage. he speaks perfect english and he thinks construction is bullcrap as well.

Anyway, you all know my point. Blame the economy on the bigger business that wants that cheap wage and will get it just because the next smaller bigger busines under them wants the same thing. 

We live in a f'ed up economy.

BTW I am in florida, as you know, is one of the worst states to be in for construction right now, with the exception of vegas.


----------



## moore

Bill from Indy said:


> OR....you could deport the 8 some odd million illegals and then there would be that many more american jobs.....hmm...maybe


if those bums are willing to work. thats the problem .lazy is a disease. and it's spreading .


----------



## Bill from Indy

moore said:


> if those bums are willing to work. thats the problem .lazy is a disease. and it's spreading .


I totally understand that too...I do..I think it is society...be it technology? can't say...but there are a lot of people that just aren't in to physical labor..if they can't sit behind a desk and peck at a keyboard all day...then it isn't a job and god forbid...they get some white stuff on there hands...if they get it on there pants they may look for a window....

I actually called a guy that worked for me about 4yrs ago to see if he wanted to work with me for awhile...good guy..he actually told me he can't because he is waiting to get on disability.....WAITING.....waiting for a free check that may be for a grand a month when he could work for a living and make at least 3x that...that is what society is turning in to....pity...I usually don't get in to politics because I just feel unless you are someone to know...you just get blown over....but this country is headed into a sewer real fast.....I hope something changes for our children...I damn sure don't want my daughters turning in to jersey shore girls....i don't mean that in a bad way...just context..

ok...maybe i did mean that in a bad way...not disrespecting jersey...just the way they portray themselves


----------



## smisner50s

i hear that people now a days have no work eithic.its sad really.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

what scares me is the ones who do have a work ethnic are starting to get fed up,I find a lot of guys saying you use to be able to work hard and get a head.But now it's like what for.You just stay stuck in 1st gear,it seems,,,,or maybe I'm just getting old,and it's me that thinks like that......I can't remember....I'm getting old


----------



## smisner50s

2buckcanuck said:


> what scares me is the ones who do have a work ethnic are starting to get fed up,I find a lot of guys saying you use to be able to work hard and get a head.But now it's like what for.You just stay stuck in 1st gear,it seems,,,,or maybe I'm just getting old,and it's me that thinks like that......I can't remember....I'm getting old


 i tell you what get me heated..pro sports players provide nothing to society nothing at all. but you and i and everyone here does provide services that better everyone and society in a positive direction .and what they make in 1 game we make in 10+ years no thats not far.:furious:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

smisner50s said:


> i tell you what get me heated..pro sports players provide nothing to society nothing at all. but you and i and everyone here does provide services that better everyone and society in a positive direction .and what they make in 1 game we make in 10+ years no thats not far.:furious:


yeah,but guys use to get sold or traded for a bag of hockey pucks,and they stood up against it.Thats something we don't do.they do make too much,but if the market can bare it ???????fair wage is all we can hope for,but i hear what your saying,,,it's crazy money they make


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

2buckcanuck said:


> yeah,but guys use to get sold or traded for a bag of hockey pucks,and they stood up against it.Thats something we don't do.they do make too much,but if the market can bare it ???????fair wage is all we can hope for,but i hear what your saying,,,it's crazy money they make



What do you mean "used to"... that still happens, at least in the minors.

Ok granted it is a sad story but was funny when it happened and i had no clue what happened after the trade until i looked up the article for you. http://blogs.suntimes.com/sportsprose/2009/03/john_c_odom_the_player_who_was.html

I was just thinking about sports stars, the question really is this? how much do you want to pay each player if you go and see them play in person? based on where you are sitting. Now imagine if everyone did this and you added up the figures based on number of seats. Some of these players may actually make what their contract is, plus the incentives they get. Would you pay $5 just to see Michael Jordan in his prime play, and be sitting nose bleed. that equals if the arena is 15k seats 6 million a year. excluding playoffs? so it does seem like alot but really it isnt. they are paid to entertain you.


----------



## SlimPickins

The_Texture_Guy said:


> What do you mean "used to"... that still happens, at least in the minors.
> 
> Ok granted it is a sad story but was funny when it happened and i had no clue what happened after the trade until i looked up the article for you. http://blogs.suntimes.com/sportsprose/2009/03/john_c_odom_the_player_who_was.html
> 
> I was just thinking about sports stars, the question really is this? how much do you want to pay each player if you go and see them play in person? based on where you are sitting. Now imagine if everyone did this and you added up the figures based on number of seats. Some of these players may actually make what their contract is, plus the incentives they get. Would you pay $5 just to see Michael Jordan in his prime play, and be sitting nose bleed. that equals if the arena is 15k seats 6 million a year. excluding playoffs? so it does seem like alot but really it isnt. they are paid to entertain you.


How much would you pay to have a teacher give you an education? I think teachers should be the real superstars.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

smisner50s said:


> i tell you what get me heated..pro sports players provide nothing to society nothing at all. but you and i and everyone here does provide services that better everyone and society in a positive direction .and what they make in 1 game we make in 10+ years no thats not far.:furious:


I know where your coming from with your point of view ,and I could add to it ,look at food,clothing and shelter.The 3 basic things we work for to live/survive.But the farmer,textile worker,and construction worker keep going down in wage.Got to make you shake your head don't it .I read in the paper this week our housing starts are to be more than that of last year .Yet the DWC I sub from says on Friday(yesterday) "Oh the builder says our price is to high,He's going to get another company....." Another words,,hint,hint,you got to lower your price or no work...like WTF


----------



## sdrdrywall

same old crap can u meet this guys price he says hell do this for free just the other day a guy i sub from wants me to drop 3 cents a foot but is willing to take 3 cents a foot worth less quality! i doubt it


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

SlimPickins said:


> How much would you pay to have a teacher give you an education? I think teachers should be the real superstars.


That depends? How much do you want to raise taxes to make sure they are well paid?

I bet you don't do you? I honestly hate when someone bitches that they are underpaid. Everyone in the entire country knows that, yet people still go out and want to be teachers. So really I don't care if they aren't paid well because they all know that going in. That is why they have private schools. Those teachers are paid more because you are paying them.



2buckcanuck said:


> I know where your coming from with your point of view ,and I could add to it ,look at food,clothing and shelter.The 3 basic things we work for to live/survive.But the farmer,textile worker,and construction worker keep going down in wage.Got to make you shake your head don't it .I read in the paper this week our housing starts are to be more than that of last year .Yet the DWC I sub from says on Friday(yesterday) "Oh the builder says our price is to high,He's going to get another company....." Another words,,hint,hint,you got to lower your price or no work...like WTF


I totally disagree. As I stated earlier, construction workers are pure morons and have no sense of business. This just proves my point. The only reason the builder does it, is because they all know you will do it and it dominos. No one in construction has any balls to say no because they feel they have to work. Well everyone does. The builder will always win assuming construction workers still think like idiots. 

Granted you are in canada and i am not sure what gas prices are there but do you go to the gas station and say the prices are to high and you arent going to use them until they lower gas. No you just keep buying gas. Its called business. Ive never seen a grocery store lower their prices on everything in a weak economy. In fact they raise prices to meet their wages they need paid. 
But alas, construction workers have no brains to figure this out, they just like to stare at the sky and say ok. Then that builder will do the same thing to the next guy. so simply don't lower your price. Here is a thought: Get yourself a picketing permit, make a huge sign and stand outside the places you work stating what your home costs and your living expenses and put on there how much you have to make per sq/ft to make a normal living and anything else is worthless, maybe everyone else will clue into that and start doing the same. The builder does not care about you or your quality in most cases now adays, they care about their bottom line. Well that bottom line has to include you making a living as well.


----------



## 2buckcanuck

The_Texture_Guy said:


> But alas, construction workers have no brains to figure this out, they just like to stare at the sky and say ok. Then that builder will do the same thing to the next guy. so simply don't lower your price. Here is a thought: Get yourself a picketing permit, make a huge sign and stand outside the places you work stating what your home costs and your living expenses and put on there how much you have to make per sq/ft to make a normal living and anything else is worthless, maybe everyone else will clue into that and start doing the same. The builder does not care about you or your quality in most cases now adays, they care about their bottom line. Well that bottom line has to include you making a living as well.


Oh we found a solution here in Ontario Canada,I just won't say the 5 letter word here on DWT,it would fuel debate .Lets just say we United,just like the states did many moons ago .And became the United States of America ,to be united and stronger .


----------



## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> How much would you pay to have a teacher give you an education? I think teachers should be the real superstars.


We have that here in Ontario,the media jokingly calls them the new auto pack .
maybe I can start a school for taping :whistling2:


----------



## [email protected]

I'll keep my anti-u#[email protected] rant short. Once they have successfully broken all us evil capitalists and you're left only with government for an employer, you will rue the day when you decided that paying for the privilege of working wasn't a f'ed up concept. Enjoy your prosperiety while it lasts. You've already lost your free will.


----------



## SlimPickins

The_Texture_Guy said:


> That depends? How much do you want to raise taxes to make sure they are well paid?
> 
> I bet you don't do you? I honestly hate when someone bitches that they are underpaid. Everyone in the entire country knows that, yet people still go out and want to be teachers. So really I don't care if they aren't paid well because they all know that going in. That is why they have private schools. Those teachers are paid more because you are paying them.


I'm an anomaly in that I don't have a problem paying taxes. I _would_ like to have more say to where the money goes. 

You can hate whatever you like, and that won't change the situation whatsoever. Let's exaggerate for effect for a moment, and let all teachers become stockbrokers, because they want to make better money. So the only people teaching our children....my children....will be the ones who decided they didn't want to work at the fast food joint. You can follow this to your own conclusions....and there are lots of them. If people don't value education, which apparently they don't, then the future literally falls apart. Are *you* homeschooling your children?


----------



## [email protected]

Slim, you're not an anomaly. Most of us don't mind paying taxes. We mind being the only half of the population paying them. We mind an Earned Income Credit that PAYS the impoverished to squirt out a kid a year, will paying nothing into the IRS. We mind the government using OUR money to bail out unions like the UAW and paying off SEIU. We mind Single Payer being laid on us like it's not the same as Chavez seizing the oil biz in his dictatorship. We mind having New Communism being jammed down our throats and having it called Progressivism, like it was a good thing.

They don't call it this yet, but municipal and institutional construction is already 'Single-Payer'. And with the residential work in the dumper, that sector is vulnerable right now to a very real federal takeover. Ooops, FmHA and Rural Housing Grants are already here, aren't they? You know, where some minimum wage earner gets a $150 k home for $383 per month, nothin' down.


----------



## SlimPickins

[email protected] said:


> Slim, you're not an anomaly. Most of us don't mind paying taxes. We mind being the only half of the population paying them. We mind an Earned Income Credit that PAYS the impoverished to squirt out a kid a year, will paying nothing into the IRS. We mind the government using OUR money to bail out unions like the UAW and paying off SEIU. We mind Single Payer being laid on us like it's not the same as Chavez seizing the oil biz in his dictatorship. We mind having New Communism being jammed down our throats and having it called Progressivism, like it was a good thing.
> 
> They don't call it this yet, but municipal and institutional construction is already 'Single-Payer'. And with the residential work in the dumper, that sector is vulnerable right now to a very real federal takeover. Ooops, FmHA and Rural Housing Grants are already here, aren't they? You know, where some minimum wage earner gets a $150 k home for $383 per month, nothin' down.


Yes, you're right, it would be a better system if we could control what happens to the large amount of money that leaves our hands. Bailouts, welfare, etc....it all comes down to what we're willing to accept. I don't have a problem having my money go to assist those who are 'underprivileged'....but as we all know there are many who use that system as an only source of income, and that system is set up to reward those who take even further advantage of it. My money is well spent if it helps a down and out family get back on their feet....but I take offense at those who sit on the couch and watch Oprah all day, having more children to collect a bigger check, leaving those children undereducated and malnourished from the doritos and gatorade bought with food stamps. The housing industry has been a racket since the Great Depression, and as always has been motivated by profit. 

Here's the way I see it, and I don't necessarily believe I'm a communist, but perhaps I am. As long as we have a system set up that is based on making a profit as large as possible, then we will continue to have the enormous (and growing) gap between wealth and poverty. We will have a country run by corporations (umm...wait, what?), and everyone will be considered a commodity. The idea behind Capitalism is fine and dandy, free enterprise, motivation, etc....but left unchecked, like any form of government, it falls apart. Equality is an illusion in this country, even though we wave it about like a flag and have language that appears to support the notion. Things like community, and cooperation, are almost non-existent...being isolated to small pocket groups who place higher value on quality of life than consumption of goods.

I don't have an urge to become rich, money is a motivating factor only in that it feeds and houses my family. I don't want a lot of it....just enough so that I'm not worried about my tenuous "security". I want to be compensated for my work ethic, which is substantial. I don't want to fund wars that are based on profit rather than an obligation to eradicate injustice. I don't want to subsidize tax breaks for large corporations that funnel said money into profit rather than creating jobs for people that want and need them. However, my *wants* don't amount to a hill of soybeans...my, or better yet, _our_ *actions* are going to be the determining factor in where we go from here. As long as we go about 'business as usual' things will never change. And as long as things don't change, we will continue to have catastrophic messes in the middle and lower classes while people in the true seats of power benefit exorbitantly. 


I remember reading recently that in France the government is afraid of the people and generally does what they want....because they had a revolution where the people decided they weren't going to be hornswoggled anymore. But here...we fear our government. We let them dictate how our lives are going to turn out because we don't want to deal with the repercussions of standing up for ourselves...our government policy is to squash insurgency quickly and with whatever force they deem necessary. This, even after someone like Abraham Lincoln says it is our obligation to revolt should the situation get out of hand. However, I value my life, so I'm not insinuating that we actually do anything about it:whistling2:


----------



## [email protected]

Beng satisfied with 'just enough' is the very first symptom.

Not being willing to defend your liberty is the second.

Sorry, you have a terminal case.


----------



## SlimPickins

[email protected] said:


> Beng satisfied with 'just enough' is the very first symptom.
> 
> Not being willing to defend your liberty is the second.
> 
> Sorry, you have a terminal case.


I don't recall saying anything about not being willing to defend my liberty. 

As long as there are people who want "more", then there will still be greed, and quests for power, and manipulation of others to further oneself. Sounds awesome, let's not change a thing. :thumbsup:


----------



## Bill from Indy

SlimPickins said:


> I don't recall saying anything about not being willing to defend my liberty.
> 
> As long as there are people who want "more", then there will still be greed, and quests for power, and manipulation of others to further oneself. Sounds awesome, let's not change a thing. :thumbsup:


I think you can still want more without greed/power/manipulation..not everyone wants to be Bill Gates...you can still be respected within the company by employees if you run it right and respect other people..if you ask me if I want a hundred or a thousand...of course I will take the thousand...but give me "10 hundreds" and i'll be happy..get what I mean?


----------



## SlimPickins

Bill from Indy said:


> I think you can still want more without greed/power/manipulation..not everyone wants to be Bill Gates...you can still be respected within the company by employees if you run it right and respect other people..if you ask me if I want a hundred or a thousand...of course I will take the thousand...but give me "10 hundreds" and i'll be happy..get what I mean?


I totally agree with you Bill, in that wanting more is not necessarily a bad thing. I want more for sure, because I don't have enough as things stand right now. I would like to make a decent living, and everywhere I turn someone wants a bigger and bigger piece of what I deserve to earn for my skill and my labor (this is not meant to include taxes, that's another debate altogether). I'm talking about the homeowners, the general contractors, the subs who hire subs, etc... If you ask me if I want a thousand, I'll say "what's the catch? and does it require bending over?":laughing:

There are quite a few contractors whom I respect and admire...they run their business well, they respect the people doing work for them and show it by paying them fairly, not spending every moment trying to figure out a way to get them to work for less under the guise of a housing shortage. Any one can see that times are tough, and some concessions must be made, but somewhere along the line we have to put a stop to the guys taking advantage of it. We've all got to continue biting the bullet, _including_ the GCs.

Oh, and thanks for still talking to me...I was afraid I had become a pariah due to my new found status as a communist


----------



## 2buckcanuck

you commie [email protected] slim ,lol
I liked your post slim ,except that's not good news for you coming from a commie Canuck,I think a lot of the problems come from too high of taxes and that damn left,right crap .
I remember when I was young,people of my parents generation would bitch that the damn government would take x amount off your pay every week .Then give it back to you at the end of the year with no interest given on their money,lol,They were more than happy to get their income tax in ,they would get a small wind fall back .Now you can give them x amount of money a week,and you still owe them more come tax time !!
and the left right thing,Winston Chruchhill once said ,"if your under forty and not a liberal then you don't have a heart .But if your over forty and are not a conservative ,then you don't have a brain ." your suppose to be in the middle some where in that statement .Now they want you to pick a side .One side is evil well the other is good.....nuts,both sides both want your money .
Just trying to say ,the less they tax you the less we complain,but the more they tax you ,the more you take interest in government affairs.people start going "hey my tax dollars pay for this or that,or why did you do that with my MONEY "
less taxes = less bitching imo


----------



## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> you commie [email protected] slim ,lol
> I liked your post slim ,except that's not good news for you coming from a commie Canuck,I think a lot of the problems come from too high of taxes and that damn left,right crap .
> I remember when I was young,people of my parents generation would bitch that the damn government would take x amount off your pay every week .Then give it back to you at the end of the year with no interest given on their money,lol,They were more than happy to get their income tax in ,they would get a small wind fall back .Now you can give them x amount of money a week,and you still owe them more come tax time !!
> and the left right thing,Winston Chruchhill once said ,"if your under forty and not a liberal then you don't have a heart .But if your over forty and are not a conservative ,then you don't have a brain ." your suppose to be in the middle some where in that statement .Now they want you to pick a side .One side is evil well the other is good.....nuts,both sides both want your money .
> Just trying to say ,the less they tax you the less we complain,but the more they tax you ,the more you take interest in government affairs.people start going "hey my tax dollars pay for this or that,or why did you do that with my MONEY "
> less taxes = less bitching imo


Dude, that's really good news! I'll be 40 next year, so I can really squeeze the juice out of the liberal perspective:thumbup: I consider myself an old fashioned liberal conservative. And I have no idea what that means....

Taxes are a pain in the ass, and I don't like that I have to pay them, but I'm not stupid enough to think that we don't need them to keep a management system going. I shudder to think of what would happen if we eliminated government altogether just so we wouldn't have to shell out a little money....It's sad to admit, but I just don't have enough faith in my fellow men to dissolve the infrastructure.

You're a good guy 2Buck.


----------



## [email protected]

This, even after someone like Abraham Lincoln says it is our obligation to revolt should the situation get out of hand. However, I value my life, so I'm not insinuating that we actually do anything about it

###############

Communist is probably too strong a word to describe what ails a good portion of the population. Obama hates being called that or a Marxist. More accurately, the direction a great many have taken is actually Fabian Socialism. That simply put, is just Communism at the point of Congress rather than at the point of a gun. Communism via legislation, so to speak. But I don't imagine any of you really care to read a dissertation on the topic. 

And I agree that the the more you know about how your government spends your money, the more concerned (even angry) one becomes. It's the apathy about it that seals our fate. The key is in seeing that while neither Ds nor Rs have your best interests in mind, a nation of fence sitters won't progress away from either extreme, but sway into one or the other endlessly.

And I may be guilty too, being a Republican who now calls myself a Constitutionalist. Some don't see much of a difference in the two.


----------



## SlimPickins

[email protected] said:


> This, even after someone like Abraham Lincoln says it is our obligation to revolt should the situation get out of hand. However, I value my life, so I'm not insinuating that we actually do anything about it
> 
> ###############
> 
> Communist is probably too strong a word to describe what ails a good portion of the population. Obama hates being called that or a Marxist. More accurately, the direction a great many have taken is actually Fabian Socialism. That simply put, is just Communism at the point of Congress rather than at the point of a gun. Communism via legislation, so to speak. But I don't imagine any of you really care to read a dissertation on the topic.
> 
> And I agree that the the more you know about how your government spends your money, the more concerned (even angry) one becomes. It's the apathy about it that seals our fate. The key is in seeing that while neither Ds nor Rs have your best interests in mind, a nation of fence sitters won't progress away from either extreme, but sway into one or the other endlessly.
> 
> And I may be guilty too, being a Republican who now calls myself a Constitutionalist. Some don't see much of a difference in the two.


I don't really consider myself a socialist or a communist, neither a republican or a democrat. I don't consider myself a fence sitter either. I make up my mind about issues as they come along, and I don't subscribe to any prescribed methodology when doing so. I will be the first to admit that I'm not very educated when it comes to politics (and I get the impression that people who _are _educated in politics find this offensive). 

Darren, I have to assume, according to Winston Churchill's reasoning, that you're over 40?:jester:


----------



## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> I remember reading recently that in France the government is afraid of the people and generally does what they want....because they had a revolution where the people decided they weren't going to be hornswoggled anymore. But here...we fear our government. We let them dictate how our lives are going to turn out because we don't want to deal with the repercussions of standing up for ourselves...our government policy is to squash insurgency quickly and with whatever force they deem necessary. This, even after someone like Abraham Lincoln says it is our obligation to revolt should the situation get out of hand. However, I value my life, so I'm not insinuating that we actually do anything about it:whistling2:


Don't worry Slim,your government fears you .America's number one export is fear .


----------



## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> Don't worry Slim,your government fears you .America's number one export is fear .


You ARE a communist! You're going to get me shot or something....:gun_bandana::2guns::tank:


----------



## Axecutioner-B

SlimPickins said:


> Dude, that's really good news! I'll be 40 next year, so I can really squeeze the juice out of the liberal perspective:thumbup: I consider myself an old fashioned liberal conservative. And I have no idea what that means....
> 
> Taxes are a pain in the ass, and I don't like that I have to pay them, but I'm not stupid enough to think that we don't need them to keep a management system going. I shudder to think of what would happen if we eliminated government altogether just so we wouldn't have to shell out a little money....It's sad to admit, but I just don't have enough faith in my fellow men to dissolve the infrastructure.
> 
> You're a good guy 2Buck.


Very well said Slim !! I couldn't agree more (everything but the 2buck thing :whistling2: ) j/k 2buck :thumbup:

Yes without government, large corporations, greedy capitolists & exploitists would rape the majority of society just like labor workers were treated at the turn of the century 1900's. Don't kid yourself workers were more like slaves 100 years ago. My Grandpa had a saying "you know who freed the slaves? FDR with the 40 hour work week that's who!!" I'm sure real slaves would've disagreed, but i think you get the point. Government has its place for sure.

Side note: I turned 40 in September & my view hasn't changed ... HOWEVER ... when my dad turned 40 he did switch from being a life long Democrat to supporting Ross Perot to being a hard core Republican which is where he is at now. It has been a strange evolution to watch 
________
VanitBeauty cam


----------



## joepro0000

Heres my view on Illegals. There might be 8 or so millions living here in the US, and driving our wages down. But those people still spend their money here, food, clothes, alchol, gas, etc. If 8 million people leave, there are alot of business that are going to take a hit, and I don't mean construction contractors. I see it as, those people are here, spending their money, and helping businesses out and destroying otheres at the same time in a different way. Its a no-win situation for us. We cannot just make them leave, because there are jobs Americans will just not do that they do.


----------



## vvdrywall

True, but remember you and I still have to pay taxes and all the other things legal citizens are responsible for. I think you should try and live here illegally, then let us know how it works out!


----------



## 2buckcanuck

joepro0000 said:


> Heres my view on Illegals. There might be 8 or so millions living here in the US, and driving our wages down. But those people still spend their money here, food, clothes, alchol, gas, etc. If 8 million people leave, there are alot of business that are going to take a hit, and I don't mean construction contractors. I see it as, those people are here, spending their money, and helping businesses out and destroying otheres at the same time in a different way. Its a no-win situation for us. We cannot just make them leave, because there are jobs Americans will just not do that they do.


well,if I were king for a day,I would lower income tax,but implement value added taxes,that way those that avoid the income tax net,will pay when they purchase or acquire a service .thus requiring them to increase their wages to survive .while those that file their income tax get rewarded with tax rebates on things like heating,electric power,water etc... at the end of the year .There are pro's and cons to value added taxes ,they do hurt those more on fixed incomes ,but again tax rebates .But they take a good bite out the super rich when they buy luxury items ,but their income tax is reduced so....
I have heard estimates as high as 20 to 30 million Illegals not paying income tax,that's the population of Canada for lords sake ,that's a lot of people .
I was also talking to a guy from Mexico yesterday ,we both agreed it is hard for any nationality to settle in any new foreign country as a legal or illegal immigrant .My step father was a Hungarian who always hired foreigners since he was one himself .he always helped them get their citizenship .These guys showed me the value of hard work .They were scared,far from home and family ,didn't know the language ,our culture or what wages earned could buy .but after they settled in and adjusted ,they became your typical Canadian citizen .......... freezing cold,lol
And the last thing me and the Mexican/Canadian were talking of,is leave your problems at home ,another words,when in Rome,do as the Romans do .He was like why leave home if your not going to adapt to your new culture .Just his opinion .and mine too
guess if Canada were dirt poor like Mexico ,I'd hop the boarder also.and trap me some fat American beaver too:yes:
just my 2bucks worth


----------



## rebel20

2buckcanuck said:


> well,if I were king for a day,I would lower income tax,but implement value added taxes,that way those that avoid the income tax net,will pay when they purchase or acquire a service .thus requiring them to increase their wages to survive .while those that file their income tax get rewarded with tax rebates on things like heating,electric power,water etc... at the end of the year .There are pro's and cons to value added taxes ,they do hurt those more on fixed incomes ,but again tax rebates .But they take a good bite out the super rich when they buy luxury items ,but their income tax is reduced so....
> I have heard estimates as high as 20 to 30 million Illegals not paying income tax,that's the population of Canada for lords sake ,that's a lot of people .
> I was also talking to a guy from Mexico yesterday ,we both agreed it is hard for any nationality to settle in any new foreign country as a legal or illegal immigrant .My step father was a Hungarian who always hired foreigners since he was one himself .he always helped them get their citizenship .These guys showed me the value of hard work .They were scared,far from home and family ,didn't know the language ,our culture or what wages earned could buy .but after they settled in and adjusted ,they became your typical Canadian citizen .......... freezing cold,lol
> And the last thing me and the Mexican/Canadian were talking of,is leave your problems at home ,another words,when in Rome,do as the Romans do .He was like why leave home if your not going to adapt to your new culture .Just his opinion .and mine too
> guess if Canada were dirt poor like Mexico ,I'd hop the boarder also.and trap me some fat American beaver too:yes:
> just my 2bucks worth


2buck not to change the subject buts thats an avitar motto I can live with.:tt2:


----------



## [email protected]

Slim, yes, I am over forty. But I've been a fiscal conservative since Carter's wage-price spiral days. I agree with all of you who have come to realize this is not a left/right problem with the economy, it's a banker/big money/global governance problem. And I could expound on that for hours. 

But there is still a huge disconnect between what the Leftists want for our country and what we can afford. Was just reading this am how Canada's healthcare system will bankrupt itself within twelve years. Truth is, not a single person can offer up an example of New Socialism working anywhere in the world, now or in history. To continue to emulate the Marx model is......the defintinion of insanity in spades.

Are there problems with unbridled capitalism? You bet. If the words 'too big to fail' don't prove that, I don't know what will. But stifling growth by taking from the rich won't fund these new nanny states and only the truly myopic can't see that. Having union leaders like Trumka calling for revolution et al, won't do anything to help reach a solution either. It'll just get a bunch of people killed and/or locked up.

At least those on the right aren't calling for Mid-East style protests for something they already have. 

Since we're into quotes and have a number of Canadians and Brits out there, here's one from their favorite fiscal conservative Ms. Thatcher: " The problem with Socialism is, sooner or later, you run out of other peoples' money." Folks, that day has come and gone.


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

This thread is still going on? Let that fire die.....


----------



## [email protected]

Sure, let it die and ignore the problem awhile longer. Even if we disagree, we need to keep a dialogue going. If we let it go and accept it as is then.....Baaaah, Baaaah, Baaah........


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

[email protected] said:


> Sure, let it die and ignore the problem awhile longer. Even if we disagree, we need to keep a dialogue going. If we let it go and accept it as is then.....Baaaah, Baaaah, Baaah........



Well i can say talking about it forever as well won't make it go away. Its not like anyone on here has enough balls to do anything about it. Im probably the only that would. Im pissed, i was going to run for office and then found out that they wont be for four more years in my city.


----------



## cdwoodcox

The_Texture_Guy said:


> Well i can say talking about it forever as well won't make it go away. Its not like anyone on here has enough balls to do anything about it. Im probably the only that would. Im pissed, i was going to run for office and then found out that they wont be for four more years in my city.


 Sometimes brain storming with others can be very productive. Gives you alot of different opinions and a chance too look at all sides of a circumstance. As far as not doing anything about anything I will do my part next vote. 

I'm curious did you vote last election or why was it a surprise election was so far away?


----------



## SlimPickins

The_Texture_Guy said:


> Well i can say talking about it forever as well won't make it go away. Its not like anyone on here has enough balls to do anything about it. Im probably the only that would. Im pissed, i was going to run for office and then found out that they wont be for four more years in my city.


I think (however unbelievable it might seem that I do any real thinking) that the true way to affect any change is to just start changing. Grassroots efforts can be a powerful tool in bringing about change. It's not going to keep "illegal" immigrants from entering and working in this country, and it's not going to keep capitalism from being the dominant force either (at least not instantly). But as far as we, as employees or employers, or subs, or whatever, are concerned, we DO have the power to change the way we're treated, and how we handle being treated. It doesn't take much to plant ideas down at the supply house, or to let GCs know how you feel about their price gouging. The "bad" contractors aren't going to make it through this. They're already selling all of their tools on craigslist, and have been for the past couple of years. I'm learning that right now, at least as far as _my_ work is concerned, I have to really sell myself....and let them know exactly what it is that differentiates me from the competition. 

Example: "You know those last 6 patio homes that have hundreds of nail/screw pops, cracks and humped butt joints everywhere? That's what happens when you focus on the bottom line only and take the lowest bid. If you agree to spend a little more money NOW on the next four units, you'll save more money later. Oh, and yes, I'd be happy to fix all of those problems for you at my regular hourly rate plus material costs." 

There's a guy in town here who was pissed that he was losing all of his bids, so he decided that he was going to go out and take ALL of the work, however low he had to go to get it. That just doesn't make any f*&%ing sense to me. How long can a guy stay in business if he's just narrowly surpassing material costs? Sure, he's out there keeping his name in the mix....but at what cost? It'll take years to undo the damage and gradually raise his prices again.

Sorry, I started rambling. Here's another sort of rant that might just be applicable...

Lots of people think of karma as some mystical thing that evens the playing field, like the hand of God rewarding/punishing good/bad behavior. Really, Karma is the ripple effect of your actions in the world....like those commercials when someone smiles at someone else and then that person smiles at another, etc. This applies in the trades as well....our actions are what really makes the changes...and they don't have to be changes as drastic as overthrowing the current political atmosphere.


----------



## [email protected]

The_Texture_Guy said:


> Well i can say talking about it forever as well won't make it go away. Its not like anyone on here has enough balls to do anything about it. Im probably the only that would. Im pissed, i was going to run for office and then found out that they wont be for four more years in my city.


No offense, but how much of an activist are you if you're just figuring out the election cycle in your area? :jester:

And there, fellows is the rub. All pissed off and ready to do something, just not for four more years. I actively campaigned for Constitutionalist candidates this past election and made a trip to the State capital with C4L, got on a first name basis with several of our Rep.s and Senators.(and have them on speed dial) I make it to as many 'town halls' as our local Communists will hold. I go armed with their voting records and a list of questions that they usually shine me on over. My point is, we have to keep the pressure up, all the time. They mostly are trying to wear us down and do as they please behind our backs. 

Apathy (and a brainwashed electorate) is the real enemy. I used to crow that I wanted everyone to get out and vote, didn't care who for, just vote. Now, my mantra is, if you don't want to do the work, the research, on the candidates and issues, stay home on election day.

Give yourselves a shock and actually read the Constitution again. Reading it won't do you much good, though, if your're content to stop there without also reading the Federalist Papers too. Ignorance has a cure, stupidity does not.


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

cdwoodcox said:


> Sometimes brain storming with others can be very productive. Gives you alot of different opinions and a chance too look at all sides of a circumstance. As far as not doing anything about anything I will do my part next vote.
> 
> I'm curious did you vote last election or why was it a surprise election was so far away?


I missed the poll by 1 minute. thought they closed at 730 and not 7.

I typically don't care when my city holds the elections. I just decided early this year that i wanted to run, so i researched when the next elections would be, turns out its in four years.

I just saw the constitution 3 months ago. It was way to long to read. Most of it isnt even followed anymore. 

IF you know how to pitch your business, the lowest price won't always win.


----------



## [email protected]

"I just saw the constitution 3 months ago. It was way to long to read. Most of it isnt even followed anymore."

#################################

Then I'll bet reading your City Charter will seem like friggin' War and Peace then. 

How about the Declaration of Independence, then? Or was it above your reading level too?


----------



## 2buckcanuck

[email protected] said:


> "I just saw the constitution 3 months ago. It was way to long to read. Most of it isnt even followed anymore."
> 
> #################################
> 
> Then I'll bet reading your City Charter will seem like friggin' War and Peace then.
> 
> How about the Declaration of Independence, then? Or was it above your reading level too?


Even though I'm just a little ol' Canuck,The American constitution (and bill of rights) was the most important document ever written in the history of man kind .Any free western country adopted a lot of their ideas from it .Even the french revolution adopted a lot of it (b/c of Thomas plain) ,Except Napoleon could over rule it , in in times of crisis .kind of like the patriot act ,LOL .America has freedom of speech,Canada has freedom of expression .America has property rights,Canada's says nothing about that:blink:
People should really study history,they don't really know how bad things use to be .They think the way things are ,were always like that .Just look at owning property , for one ,250 years that would of been un heard of for the average Joe to do.Napoleon allowed the average peasant to own property because of the things they copied from the American constitution .That's why every king,Queen,noble or landlord wanted his head on a platter in Europe .He was Americanizing Europe .
Bad,bad Napoleon:yes:..........While...... emperor Napoleon


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

[email protected] said:


> "I just saw the constitution 3 months ago. It was way to long to read. Most of it isnt even followed anymore."
> 
> #################################
> 
> Then I'll bet reading your City Charter will seem like friggin' War and Peace then.
> 
> How about the Declaration of Independence, then? Or was it above your reading level too?



I have a high reading comprehension. It just bores the hell out of me. If they made a movie i would watch it. If it were a picture of a space shuttle on a launch pad for 365 days a year i would stare at it forever waiting for something to happen.

The DOI was the first thing i skipped. I looked at it. Its all barely even legible anymore. so dim and fadded.

Now let the thread die again. I don't think it matters how much i know about when elections are, just that i want to make a change. so you can hobnob with your republicans and senators. My brother talks on a constant basis with clients of his who sit in the oval office and talk with the higher ups about the economy. That person says the higher ups don't listen to well.

Hey i met jim henson and was in a movie with him. I wouldnt trade that moment any day of my life. That wouldnt even compare to meeting a president in my eyes. 

Politicians are mostly dirty and only care about padding there pocket somehow.


----------



## Michigan11

The_Texture_Guy said:


> I have a high reading comprehension. It just bores the hell out of me. If they made a movie i would watch it. If it were a picture of a space shuttle on a launch pad for 365 days a year i would stare at it forever waiting for something to happen.
> 
> The DOI was the first thing i skipped. I looked at it. Its all barely even legible anymore. so dim and fadded.
> 
> Now let the thread die again. I don't think it matters how much i know about when elections are, just that i want to make a change. so you can hobnob with your republicans and senators. My brother talks on a constant basis with clients of his who sit in the oval office and talk with the higher ups about the economy. That person says the higher ups don't listen to well.
> 
> Hey i met jim henson and was in a movie with him. I wouldnt trade that moment any day of my life. That wouldnt even compare to meeting a president in my eyes.
> 
> Politicians are mostly dirty and only care about padding there pocket somehow.


 
If you think you got the balls, learn to gain knowledge. Why?

Because knowledge is power. Let's say you run without a firm grasp on philosophy... you running as an ignorant... how does that help?

Learn to read and understand the constitution, because it is the basis for you very freedom, you hold at this present time. Why is it you have no money or very little freedom left, besides being able to walk or drive around freely? It is because of the government school system that you have been dumbed down. Blame your government, not a scapegoat. We as a people are rising, and they can't stop us now. Jefferson lives today, find out who he is running in 2012.


----------



## [email protected]

Michigan11 said:


> If you think you got the balls, learn to gain knowledge. Why?
> 
> Because knowledge is power. Let's say you run without a firm grasp on philosophy... you running as an ignorant... how does that help?
> 
> Learn to read and understand the constitution, because it is the basis for you very freedom, you hold at this present time. Why is it you have no money or very little freedom left, besides being able to walk or drive around freely? It is because of the government school system that you have been dumbed down. Blame your government, not a scapegoat. We as a people are rising, and they can't stop us now. Jefferson lives today, find out who he is running in 2012.


Thought for a minute there I was in the twilight zone or something....We had here an ole boy, ready to get all patriotic and run for office but says the DOI and the Constitution 'bores the hell outta me'. It is that exact voter attitude that brings us 72+/- representatives being members of the American Communist Party, who also have no use for either document.

It also further supports my theory that voters and candidates should be required to take and pass a civics exam prior to being allowed to cast a ballot or file for office. It brings us quotes likes 'the good and plenty clause' and 'Constitution? Are you kidding me?'

We have today inflicted upon us ignorant fools in public office at every level. Be it the city officials of Bell Ca or the current crop of morons in DC, ignorance has a cure. Stupidity is the refusal to take that cure. So let this one inflict himself upon his neighbors. Hopefully his community has the good sense to send him back to the group W bench.:whistling2::whistling2:


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

the problem right now with manual labor is that someone can make the same wage at a desk job and not have to sweat there butt off outside all day for the same wage. A good suckretary can make 15 an hour to take phone calls and write a message while that drywall hanger makes the same but has to WORK HARD just for the same money.

Im going into the t-shirt business next week. got them on order already. that should be millions in my pocket with my new concept.


----------



## [email protected]

The_Texture_Guy said:


> the problem right now with manual labor is that someone can make the same wage at a desk job and not have to sweat there butt off outside all day for the same wage. A good suckretary can make 15 an hour to take phone calls and write a message while that drywall hanger makes the same but has to WORK HARD just for the same money.
> 
> Im going into the t-shirt business next week. got them on order already. that should be millions in my pocket with my new concept.


For that $15 an hour that secretary must read and write proficiently. Two things you don't seem to place too high an important on. A $7 dollar secretary is about as valuable as a $7 hanger. Good luck with that t-shirt biz.


----------



## The_Texture_Guy

[email protected] said:


> For that $15 an hour that secretary must read and write proficiently. Two things you don't seem to place too high an important on. A $7 dollar secretary is about as valuable as a $7 hanger. Good luck with that t-shirt biz.


I don't need luck. I am to smart to not succeed in anything I do. I didn't say the constitution bores me. I said reading in general bores me. I went to a high school that is in the top 100 in the United States. Try the google search on Lake Brantley High School, so you can verify my stupidity and intelligence. By the way, I already new this fact prior to writing this, but I figure the both of you would think I am full of it. I also can't stand when people can't read or right proficiently. I do not read does not mean I do not know how to read. People of your intelligence should understand that and know the difference between the two but apparently this is not the case.

I have had a teacher in college call me stupid to my face because I talked to much and she moved me to the front of the class. She also apologized to me in front of my face after reading my term paper on The New Deal, which was neither new, nor a deal. Discuss amongst yourselves. She told me that by reading it she could tell that it did not take me long to write at all and that it was very good and wished I had written more. The paper ended abruptly because I reached my minimum amount of words.

I taught my whole English class in 12th grade how to cheat on the spelling vocabulary tests because they didn't realize that on each test, was the test for the next 4 weeks. I simply would write those answers on my desk while taking the test for the prior week and had no problem passing. Stupid to cheat? Yes. Did I have to study? No.

I chose not to excel, because it was my right. Do I have freedom to drive. I only have freedom to steer under the guidelines of the law. I do not need a law to tell me how I can drive.

I do not appreciate the government we have at all. Their power well exceeds the ability of any one person to challenge. If government wants you to fail, they will make sure it happens, no matter how smart that person is. If they can't legally shut you up or shut you down, they will quickly write a law that will ensure failure in order to get their way.

So before you insult someones intelligence, I suggest you find a way to write a bunch of bull**** paragraphs like I just did. It isn't easy, and it most certainly takes brains to do. I do not expect any of you to understand because you both think government is a blessing to be apart of when in actuality, it is just there to help huge business get there way by offering kickbacks to upper officials. So ask your officials that are on your speed dial, why major food corporations are constantly allowed to have illegal migrant workers to keep costs down? How about why banks are allowed to have all these stupid fees all of the time and do business only so they can take advantage of a struggling economy and make it worse. 

Please ask him why there is nothing they can do to regulate gas prices or why they can't find a common ground to get a health care system for those who need it. Why do they allow people to collect unemployment for so long when they could go out and find a job. If they shut down unemployment and kept it to 90 days max, that would make someone get a job and at the same time, boost the economy because that job enabled that person to spend his money instead of costing taxpayers and the company he formerly worked for.

Hit the speed dial please. I forgot to mention, the county I live in is known for high academics. So in construction talk, 'yall need to shut yer pie holes ya know it, and to what you do best for the rest of your lives. This small microscopic blip on the radar of a job called, wait for it, wait for it, DRYWALL".:blink:


----------

