# flat boxing



## taper2 (May 13, 2012)

<P>In reading past postings on running boxes , im surprised to see that most guys are using only 2 box sizes for coating. Would b interested in Knowing how many out there are using 3 . I run 3 .....   7,10,12. If not happy with final result will still skim wide by hand especially around ceiling fixtures.Too often do lighting choices reflect  if you coated with too much crown. Have just tavelled across Canada and can not believe how many bad tape jobs are out there !!!! No pride in workmanship. How do these guys stay in the taping gig . WTF is this stuff not common sense ??  All the power to those who still believe that taping is an art . this get'r done crap ,cash that check .OOps well that headed down the wrong path lol !!!  Any how how many out there using 3 sizes instead of 2 . would like to add i only do flat ceilings , no knockdown or texture . is there anyone out there that still thinks the texture will hide all ???? <IMG class=inlineimg border=0 alt=0 src="http://www.drywalltalk.com/images/smilies/whistling2.gif" smilieid="122">  People seem to change everything in there house at one point in time ,But a Bad taping Job is there until the demolition of the house !!!<IMG class=inlineimg border=0 alt=0 src="http://www.drywalltalk.com/images/smilies/eek.gif" smilieid="9"></P>


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

7 box -10 box then 12 broad knife by hand.

just a smidgin of a skim with the 12..:yes:

my next box!


----------



## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

Have always done 10,10,12. I recently bought a 7" to use on inside 45's and figured what the hell,...i'm going to give it a shot on some flats....I like it. Next house I'm going to do it this way and see how it turns out.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

taper2 said:


> <P>In reading past postings on running boxes , im surprised to see that most guys are using only 2 box sizes for coating. Would b interested in Knowing how many out there are using 3 . I run 3 .....   7,10,12. If not happy with final result will still skim wide by hand especially around ceiling fixtures.Too often do lighting choices reflect  if you coated with too much crown. Have just tavelled across Canada and can not believe how many bad tape jobs are out there !!!! No pride in workmanship. How do these guys stay in the taping gig . WTF is this stuff not common sense ??  All the power to those who still believe that taping is an art . this get'r done crap ,cash that check .OOps well that headed down the wrong path lol !!!  Any how how many out there using 3 sizes instead of 2 . would like to add i only do flat ceilings , no knockdown or texture . is there anyone out there that still thinks the texture will hide all ???? People seem to change everything in there house at one point in time ,But a Bad taping Job is there until the demolition of the house !!


Have you ever thought, that of the time of the 7,10,12 method, the system was needed, b/c the mud was such crap. With the advance of better muds, that new ways of coating could follow:yes:

Plus a good pre-fill before taping, can replace what the 7" box does these days. So ,,,, back in the day

The 7" would fill/bed the tape coat, filling any nails/screws or hollow lines where the tape shrunk (or pre-fill instead)

The 10" made a better fill over the seven, b/c the mud was garbage, it shrank a lot and left tons of poc marks or pin holes (porosity).

Then you skimmed tight with a 12" to hide any imperfections, some called it a sanding coat.

Now with the better topping muds on the market, they shrink less and leave less poc marks the more you pass over them. I personally don't do it myself, but you can load a bit with the 12" box now, with less repercussions.

I could go on, but it's B1tch about politics and hockey night at the neighbours :thumbup:


----------



## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Is 3 coats really needed for your mud? Our houses are all done with a 10" box then a 12" box and they come out close to perfection. Never too much crown, and never sunk in. Is it just preference for the 3rd coat?


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

thefinisher said:


> Is 3 coats really needed for your mud? Our houses are all done with a 10" box then a 12" box and they come out close to perfection. Never too much crown, and never sunk in. Is it just preference for the 3rd coat?


 It would be my preference to have a good frame to apply my rock to...Then i could go 7-10,,,and skip the 12.


----------



## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

moore said:


> 7 box -10 box then 12 broad knife by hand.
> 
> just a smidgin of a skim with the 12..:yes:
> 
> my next box!


Who makes that box?


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

thefinisher said:


> Who makes that box?


 http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/Drywall-Flat-Boxes/Drywall-Master-Flat-Box.html


----------



## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Ahhhh ok... they look nice


----------



## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

moore said:


> 7 box -10 box then 12 broad knife by hand.
> 
> just a smidgin of a skim with the 12..:yes:
> 
> my next box!


Damn good deal with the allwall discount.


----------



## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Moor, try 7-12, even if just on one seam:yes:


----------



## taper2 (May 13, 2012)

Thats sooo shiny would hate to get it dirty !! lol DM  running 3.5 bone head , love it if the rest of the gear runs anything like it you should b a happy camper


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

taper2 said:


> Thats sooo shiny would hate to get it dirty !! lol DM  running 3.5 bone head , love it if the rest of the gear runs anything like it you should b a happy camper


Which type of boxes you running taper2????

Oh, if you have read some of the post, Justme summed things up like this, there's mudders, tapers, then finishers,,,,, Question is, which one are you going to get:thumbup:


----------



## Lloydnz (Oct 21, 2010)

I do 8 10 12 all my work is paint finish.


----------



## taper2 (May 13, 2012)

I like to call it the good , the bad and the fugly lol! I run TT's , 7 10 12. I prefer using 3 sizes . Not knocking anyone else's system . If it works and u are happy with the finish stick with it , as far as the tools are concerned my gear is a mix from Columbia TT Northstar and DM. They all make great quality stuff would not b one to argue one is better than the other. Taping just is not for everyone, too bad there are so many out there that still have not figured that out !


----------



## Tony Plain (Mar 2, 2012)

I run northstar 7, 10, 12. If you take the time laying tapes to embed them not just wipe as much mud out as possible you can get away with a 10, & 12. I find it faster to hit it with the 7. I dont get the double 10 and then a 12. I have had many crews just run a 10, & 12. It must take alot of rough sanding. Dealing with the dust to avoid flaking must take some time too.


----------



## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

Tony Plain said:


> I run northstar 7, 10, 12. If you take the time laying tapes to embed them not just wipe as much mud out as possible you can get away with a 10, & 12. I find it faster to hit it with the 7. I dont get the double 10 and then a 12. I have had many crews just run a 10, & 12. It must take alot of rough sanding. Dealing with the dust to avoid flaking must take some time too.


"It must take a lot of rough sanding"

Well, I guess it depends on how it's done? I lightly pull across the 10" box with a 12" knife to lay it down after each coat. This along with gauging the board properly and good blades prevents the need for a lot of rough sanding.

Also, it kind of sounds like your crews are over loading the flats.


----------



## taper2 (May 13, 2012)

Well it seems to be a split between 3 boxes vs 2 . I guess it still comes down to preference and your experience with your finishing system. No matter how it made it onto the board, it undeniably still comes down to the final sand !! 

A wise man once said " We are only as good as our last job , if you say that's good enough , it probably is not, and the quality of workmanship is not always as first class as the truck in the driveway ! "


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

taper2 said:


> Well it seems to be a split between 3 boxes vs 2 . I guess it still comes down to preference and your experience with your finishing system. No matter how it made it onto the board, it undeniably still comes down to the final sand !!
> 
> A wise man once said " We are only as good as our last job , if you say that's good enough , it probably is not, and the quality of workmanship is not always as first class as the truck in the driveway ! "


 I will take that as a compliment!!:thumbup:


----------



## taper2 (May 13, 2012)

Did u clean out the truck for the Pic ?LOL My companion on the job is also the dewalt , but i see yours called shotgun !!! That pic is awesome !! U just made all us cargo van guys happy with that . We all go on about tools and how we put it on ,would be a great Topic " how do you drive to work " :thumbsup:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

taper2 said:


> Did u clean out the truck for the Pic ?LOL My companion on the job is also the dewalt , but i see yours called shotgun !!! That pic is awesome !! U just made all us cargo van guys happy with that . We all go on about tools and how we put it on ,would be a great Topic " how do you drive to work " :thumbsup:


 That's an old pic! I don't think you want to see what it looks like at it's present stance.


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

moore said:


> That's an old pic! I don't think you want to see what it looks like at it's present stance.


Same here! lol!
I thought getting a truck cap would help me stay more organized....
boy was I wrong...
It just means I can pile sh!t up even higher! :blink:


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

taper2 said:


> Well it seems to be a split between 3 boxes vs 2 . I guess it still comes down to preference and your experience with your finishing system. No matter how it made it onto the board, it undeniably still comes down to the final sand !!


Speaking of a split, I switched my system when I came across what I call '2buck 2 1/2 boxing'.

Less work, better results.

2 bucks for the secret. :whistling2:


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Same here! lol!
> I thought getting a truck cap would help me stay more organized....
> boy was I wrong...
> It just means I can pile sh!t up even higher! :blink:
> ...


I recognize that back end look. :thumbsup:


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

moore said:


> I will take that as a compliment!!:thumbup:


You're worse than me. :thumbup:


----------



## Square Foot (Jul 1, 2012)

Do tell...all for a more efficient method.


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Square Foot said:


> Do tell...all for a more efficient method.


I think 2buck explains it better than me. I'll see if he takes up the gauntlet 1st, before I post anything. Or maybe he knows where some of his past posts on it are.


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Post #6 in this thread.
Also within this thread is a link to another thread with more explanations.
http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/tracing-behind-boxes-1740/

For those too lazy to click on the link, here it is quoted from 2buck.



2buckcanuck said:


> OK,think this is the third time,2 finger typer here,so....
> everyone has their own system,this is not something I invented,it's what most guys do where I'm from.I think it evolved from mud being crap along time ago,getting rid of the 7" box and that guy chasing with a knife.there are different ways of doing it.I know one taper who runs a double 8" while wet,then finishes it with a 12".So just saying you can change it up any way you want,so ......
> I can't tell you what # to run your boxes at,only you know that,plus the bevell depth could be different from 1/2" to 5/8" and rock brand.
> My 10" boxes finish good at #3,say your doing a normal up stairs of a house,run your box at #4 (or #3,experiment)just get your mud on the joints,just go go go,dont worry about lines,wall eyes etc,just get the mud on fast.Once you have ran all the flats,go back to where you have started,and run them again.this time concentrate on quality.
> ...


----------



## taper2 (May 13, 2012)

Will give the the 2.5 method a shot :thumbsup:


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

taper2 said:


> Will give the the 2.5 method a shot :thumbsup:


I found what usually works good for me is where I used to use a 2 setting on my 1st boxing, with a 10", a 3 setting seems okay when run like that. Where used to use a 3 setting, a 4 seems okay.


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

JustMe said:


> I found what usually works good for me is where I used to use a 2 setting on my 1st boxing, with a 10", a 3 setting seems okay when run like that. Where used to use a 3 setting, a 4 seems okay.



Btw: Expect a smooth 10" 1st coat to 12" finish on.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

taper2 said:


> Will give the the 2.5 method a shot :thumbsup:


Doing first commercial job in a long time, STAND UPS , thats where the dd 10 paid off I found, from other tapers who taught me. It was knowing when to move left or right with the box, and to eliminate the 7" box.

First 2 picks, one is the first pass, the other is the 2nd pass, hard to tell with pics, but second pass makes the joint look sweet:thumbuplus letting mud stand for a bit, it does a lot of shrinking with in 15 minutes or so, depending on weather. That's what drywall is designed to do, dry from both sides.(drywall side,air side). Another words, you don't half to wait for the mud to totally dry, it begins shrinking immediately. 1st pass you bury the tape, but go back 15 minutes later, you can see the tape beginning to expose through, hit it again.

Last 2 pics, there was grey to the left of the joint(2") well to the right, there is one inch of grey, means joint is not level. So second pass you run your box more to the right. Something I see a lot of tapers not do. Top pics there is equal grey on each side, So joint is level.

We also pre-filled the joints before we taped too on this job, sorta had to though, drywallers really sucked on this job. They didn't even slide the rock in behind the steal doors:blink:


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Pics 2 and 3, are to give the basic idea on how much ground I covered, until I went back for my 2nd pass. (notice theres a pole sander on the job already







boy).

Pics one and four ,are of our competition, Some guy recently moved down from Sudbury, in his early forties. Said he worked for some guy who didn't believe in rough sanding:whistling2:
This guy gets 30 bucks a hour, well were there on piece work. This trade don't make any sense anymore


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

If anyone needs to sand between coats..It's this guy! 
$30 an hour :blink:!! I wouldn't pay him $80 A DAY!! And that would be too much....


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Some guy recently moved down from Sudbury, in his early forties. Said he worked for some guy who didn't believe in rough sanding:whistling2:
> This guy gets 30 bucks a hour, well were there on piece work. This trade don't make any sense anymore


What's his name!?
Was that his work?! 



moore said:


> If anyone needs to sand between coats..It's this guy!
> $30 an hour :blink:!! I wouldn't pay him $80 A DAY!! And that would be too much....


Exactly! I don't pre-sand because I don't do crap work like that!!


----------



## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

You see it all the time crappy work like that and most of that leave it like that think they are the best, even when compared to a nice uniform fill that is done right they just don't get it. As far as sanding between coats I still do not understand why this is necessary it the previous coat is done right.


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

silverstilts said:


> As far as sanding between coats I still do not understand why this is necessary it the previous coat is done right.


About friggen time!!! :thumbsup: :notworthy: Thank you!

I haven't been pushing the subject much because we all know how sensitive 2buck is...:jester:
But seriously now?...Really? Is it really necessary?....
:no:


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

Ill do a quick scrape down so i dont pick up anything and have to run the joint again..
I have speed sanded in the past but the dust was just enough to cause the mud to not stick at first to the joint at first pass it was making a dusty paisty mess on the bottom and mouth of my box thats why i stoped speed sanding


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

smisner50s said:


> Ill do a quick scrape down so i dont pick up anything and have to run the joint again..
> I have speed sanded in the past but the dust was just enough to cause the mud to not stick at first to the joint at first pass it was making a dusty paisty mess on the bottom and mouth of my box thats why i stoped speed sanding


Exactly!
Thank you. Same here.
Just does not work with my system.
When I walk into the room I'm about to box, I just lean my box in the doorway, and then buzz around the room with knife getting any flips or little hitch hikers. Takes all of 20 seconds and I'm good to go.
No dust, paisty mess on my box and the mud sticks without having to do another pass.


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

Great minds think alike


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

smisner50s said:


> Great minds think alike


Exactly!
2buck's so different than us :jester:


----------



## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

Maby he will try a scrape down some day...


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

smisner50s said:


> Maby he will try a scrape down some day...


lol! I'm just bugging him. Trying to get him frustrated :jester:
It's what we do. I don't care if he pre-sands or not. lol


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Some work needs sanded before coats ,,and some work dont:whistling2:


----------



## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Exactly!
> Thank you. Same here.
> Just does not work with my system.
> When I walk into the room I'm about to box, I just lean my box in the doorway, and then buzz around the room with knife getting any flips or little hitch hikers. Takes all of 20 seconds and I'm good to go.
> No dust, paisty mess on my box and the mud sticks without having to do another pass.


I'm bringing my light up to sudbury lol


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

chris said:


> Some work needs sanded before coats ,,and some work dont:whistling2:


Thank you chris:thumbsup:

It's not the flats I'm only talking about, Moose boy claims to do zero rough sanding at all.

So silver and Smis, what about your angles, or your beads or butts.

Main thing were rough sanding flats for, is to get rid of any debris. It's more like a quick pass, and get the lift mark. Theres no muscle involved till 2nd coat on bead, if doing 3 coats. You guys must be constantly stopping to clean junk out of your blades when doing angles or flats:blink:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

You guys are too good to knock the boogers off??:blink:

Pre sand is a must for me!


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

DLSdrywall said:


> I'm bringing my light up to sudbury lol


Not for my final sand Dan! lol!
I meant instead of pre-sanding in between coats!


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Thank you chris:thumbsup:
> 
> It's not the flats I'm only talking about, Moose boy claims to do zero rough sanding at all.
> 
> ...


I don't do any rough sanding at all! It's not a claim, it's a fact!
Sanding poles don't come into my jobs until we're completely done and ready to sand.



moore said:


> You guys are too good to knock the boogers off??:blink:
> 
> Pre sand is a must for me!


That's why we scrape bro. A quick pass of the knife. Same as you guys, there's just no dust.


----------



## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Not for my final sand Dan! lol!
> I meant instead of pre-sanding in between coats!


I dont want to start some long boring thread but if you dont rough sand thats the reason i would come down with a light i always rough sand.....and i mean always..ecspecially the beads. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with it... it's strictly IMO. The taper that worked beside me didn't rough sand partially because he's a butcher. I sandedmy house in half a day sponged out with a light. He took all day and the checkout guy was crying because of his beads all his returns show, and he has waves. IMO the rough sanding is the most important part of the job, sure you sand the house twice..but when everyone is home masterbating to you**** your still at work.:yes:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

DLSdrywall said:


> I dont want to start some long boring thread but if you dont rough sand thats the reason i would come down with a light i always rough sand.....and i mean always..ecspecially the beads. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with it... it's strictly IMO. The taper that worked beside me didn't rough sand partially because he's a butcher. I sandedmy house in half a day sponged out with a light. He took all day and the checkout guy was crying because of his beads all his returns show, and he has waves. IMO the rough sanding is the most important part of the job, sure you sand the house twice..but when everyone is home masterbating to you**** your still at work.:yes:


 [edit] redtube:whistling2:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

DLSdrywall said:


> I'm bringing my light up to sudbury lol


500 watt halogen ...at night!


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

DLSdrywall said:


> I'm bringing my light up to sudbury lol


Let me know when your going, you have the light, Ill bring the camera:thumbup::whistling2:


----------



## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

moore said:


> 500 watt halogen ...at night!


God that makes the drywaller look bad lol, i use 300 halogen which is plenty i use to use 500 but i found that it blinded me too much. :yes:


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

DLSdrywall said:


> I dont want to start some long boring thread but if you dont rough sand thats the reason i would come down with a light i always rough sand.....and i mean always..ecspecially the beads. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with it... it's strictly IMO. The taper that worked beside me didn't rough sand partially because he's a butcher. I sandedmy house in half a day sponged out with a light. He took all day and the checkout guy was crying because of his beads all his returns show, and he has waves. IMO the rough sanding is the most important part of the job, sure you sand the house twice..but when everyone is home masterbating to you**** your still at work.:yes:


Ya, well there you go, you said it.
all his returns show and he had waves.
That's because he sucks at trowelling! Or he's trying to move too fast and he's getting speed wobbles. Either way. I don't pre-sand and my work looks great.
I'll have to take another video for you guys.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

DLSdrywall said:


> I dont want to start some long boring thread but if you dont rough sand thats the reason i would come down with a light i always rough sand.....and i mean always..ecspecially the beads. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with it... it's strictly IMO. The taper that worked beside me didn't rough sand partially because he's a butcher. I sandedmy house in half a day sponged out with a light. He took all day and the checkout guy was crying because of his beads all his returns show, and he has waves. IMO the rough sanding is the most important part of the job, sure you sand the house twice..but when everyone is home masterbating to you**** your still at work.:yes:


Well I will take your post a bit farther:yes:
I don't look at it as a IMO thing, or a preferred thing, it's the bloody right way to do taping.

I don't think I have met a machine taper yet, that don't rough sand. Ive seen hour working Union guys (mostly french Canadians) only scrap their work. But they spend so long at coating things to make it pretty, and to have minimal scraping, and at the end of it all,,, they don't even sand their own work,,,, the labourer does:blink:

Can you scrap your work, sure, if I missed rough sanding something I will, faster than hunting for the sander. But sanding is faster than scraping, and does a better job,,,, rough sanding equals production.

Guys who scrap TEND to go room by room or bead by bead, so scrap then coat, scrap then coat. Guys who rough sand will sand out all their beads, flats ,angles at once. Then when it's time to coat,,, you fly baby:thumbup:,,,, That's being a production taper


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

pay me $3 a ft ....I wont sand chit! :yes:
Last day out ...I won't leave a speck of dust on the floor! 
It can be done ,,and I can do it! for $3 a ft....:thumbsup:


----------



## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Well I will take your post a bit farther:yes:
> I don't look at it as a IMO thing, or a preferred thing, it's the bloody right way to do taping.
> 
> I don't think I have met a machine taper yet, that don't rough sand. Ive seen hour working Union guys (mostly french Canadians) only scrap their work. But they spend so long at coating things to make it pretty, and to have minimal scraping, and at the end of it all,,, they don't even sand their own work,,,, the labourer does:blink:
> ...


That was said like we're working in the same house lol. sometimes i get to a closet i forgot to rough sand... i feel guilty scraping it hahaha:whistling2:


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Ya, well there you go, you said it.
> all his returns show and he had waves.
> That's because he sucks at trowelling! Or he's trying to move too fast and he's getting speed wobbles. Either way. I don't pre-sand and my work looks great.
> I'll have to take another video for you guys.


Boxes run true:yes:
But weather by trowel or knife, they run un-true, leaving ripples, waves, dips, dives, hollows, especially on bead. Any taper that says he can coat without leaving these imperfections, is full of sheep chit.

Rough sanding will bring down the high points, making it more level, or you can side coat your bead(opposite direction of last coat). But as I have said before,,,, sanding is faster than coating.

Plus camera work gives taping jobs more justice, than in person. I could be sitting in a unit having coffee with another taper during the day, and his work could look good. But go back at night with a light, and you could go


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Boxes run true:yes:
> But weather by trowel or knife, they run un-true, leaving ripples, waves, dips, dives, hollows, especially on bead. Any taper that says he can coat without leaving these imperfections, is full of sheep chit.
> 
> Rough sanding will bring down the high points, making it more level, or you can side coat your bead(opposite direction of last coat). But as I have said before,,,, sanding is faster than coating.
> ...


I hear ya buddy.
I just don't do it. Sure If I was doing everything by hand maybe I would. Won't argue that. Because there would be way more trowel flips and stuff.
But I only use a trowel for my beads and butts.
For the last year I've only been using one trowel. One.
That's it. That's all I have. A flat trowel.
I have a small curve which I'll occasionally use for my flats if I don't box them.
But I know what your point is.


----------



## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

PrecisionTaping said:


> I hear ya buddy.
> I just don't do it. Sure If I was doing everything by hand maybe I would. Won't argue that. Because there would be way more trowel flips and stuff.
> But I only use a trowel for my beads and butts.
> For the last year I've only been using one trowel. One.
> ...


Thats it this week i'm coming to work with PT, I'll finish the work real nice you wont even have to sand it LOL!!:thumbup:


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

'' I could be sitting in a unit having coffee with another taper during the day, and his work could look good. But go back at night with a light, and you could go







''



That could be said for all of us..even the best of finishers!
You ..yourself said ..''If you want perfect walls and ceilings call a plasterer ''

I agree with that 100%!! 

You finish off a butt joint ...To perfection!!! The crowned out stud before it flashes through the paint....Why bother? I wasted my time ...It all comes down to $$..


----------



## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

Have you really noticed the speed houses are thrown up?? That "perfect" job is unachievable. In my neck of the woods the houses are transported on flatbed trucks walls are pre-ordered depending on model (pre-fab homes) so when i look at the pile of walls dropped off in the winter that are waiting to be put up, can you imagine how straight the walls are lol The sub-par tapers or as i like to call butchers die. With all the high shoulders they pull everything normal and the whole house shows and a 500$ backcharge to go with it. Houses have more detail and there getting more crooked so to make a perfect product will cost the taper in the end.


----------



## Tony Plain (Mar 2, 2012)

Just finished a house. 2 coats then I sprayed and trowelled all the walls and ceilings for the 3rd coat. Surprizingly it took the same amount of time & material as my usual 3 coat system. It was less complicated and turned out flawlessly. I'm considering making it standard. Anyone els taped that way. Do you think my subs will do just 2 coats, no sanding, & less responsibity for finish. If I reduce their per/thousand accordingly?


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> But sanding is faster than scraping, and does a better job,,,, rough sanding equals production.


I'll take a quick rough sand for production, and for quality, as well.

But if someone can show me how their scraping system will create a faster, better product, I'd be interested.


----------



## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

JustMe said:


> I'll take a quick rough sand for production, and for quality, as well.
> 
> But if someone can show me how their scraping system will create a faster, better product, I'd be interested.


I think both methods work out just fine but I find that scraping is faster. Faster doesn't always mean better though. I always scraped while hand finishing, but our best finishing crew rough sands everything and I am very fond of thier finished product. I can run through a 400 board house with a 500 watt halogen and find very very few defects that are finishing related


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

thefinisher said:


> I think both methods work out just fine but I find that scraping is faster. Faster doesn't always mean better though. I always scraped while hand finishing, but our best finishing crew rough sands everything and I am very fond of thier finished product. I can run through a 400 board house with a 500 watt halogen and find very very few defects that are finishing related


I have no problem with my competition scraping, not sanding.


----------



## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

Tony Plain said:


> Just finished a house. 2 coats then I sprayed and trowelled all the walls and ceilings for the 3rd coat. Surprizingly it took the same amount of time & material as my usual 3 coat system. It was less complicated and turned out flawlessly. I'm considering making it standard. Anyone els taped that way. Do you think my subs will do just 2 coats, no sanding, & less responsibity for finish. If I reduce their per/thousand accordingly?


I'm guessing you want to reduce their wages, raise your own, but still charge the same ?

I'd shove my my zook up your nook and cut a few tapeworms.:jester::no:


----------



## Tony Plain (Mar 2, 2012)

2 less days spent doing the work means more jobs for subs done /month, less material, no sanding, no clean up, less responsability for finish means no painter conflicts or call backs. Its not about greed. Its about a higher quality finish for the same price to customers. If I was still subcontracting I would be all over it. But I figured I would see how its received on this platform before I ask around localy. It would actually be costly for me to supply spray equipment, hire & train people on payroll busy or not. But I would make the investment to offer a higher quality finish than my competitors for the same price.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Tony Plain said:


> 2 less days spent doing the work means more jobs for subs done /month, less material, no sanding, no clean up, less responsability for finish means no painter conflicts or call backs. Its not about greed. Its about a higher quality finish for the same price to customers. If I was still subcontracting I would be all over it. But I figured I would see how its received on this platform before I ask around localy. It would actually be costly for me to supply spray equipment, hire & train people on payroll busy or not. But I would make the investment to offer a higher quality finish than my competitors for the same price.


I would say yes and no

I remember a long time ago, when I was still dry walling, the tapers had the option for a sanding crew to sand out their work. Think they gave up 2 cents back then ( they got 12 cents, gave up 2 cents). Most jumped at it when they were SUPER busy, but when things slowed down, like in the winter, then every penny counted and they did their own sanding. Over time, the sanding crews got phased out, too many conflicts between taper and sanding crew, as to who was at fault with things.....

So if their busy they might go for it, but on the other hand, if your system is a success, and builders/cg like your system/methods, they might end up shooting them selves in the foot when things slow down......

So the question would be, would you be willing to share some of this new type of pie that you will of created when the market slows down. Or will they half to CUT your throat to get some.

Sounds like your providing a level 5 TYPE finish anyhow (guessing), so since you proclaim it's better, you should charge just a bit more, rather than the same as current work done by your subs. That way, you create a bit of a safety net


----------



## Tony Plain (Mar 2, 2012)

Just south of me in Calgary sanding companies are the majority. You know how there is a billion methods and taping systems. Sanding companies provide some consistancy for better or worse. I have some unbelevably talented tapers but our taper shortage is getting bigger and I am forced to seek more talent and they are harder and harder to come by. Thats part of the reason for contemplating the shift. I agree with you fully thank you for your input.


----------



## taper2 (May 13, 2012)

In passing through looked as though Alberta esp. Calgary still hopping, houses going up like mushrooms can definately see the need for sanding crews , saw an add from a guy out there offering sanding at 9 cents a foot . I think that guy would ask for more if there was no quick scuff sand. lol . personally would never skip a scuff with the pole to start the . As well as doing 3 ways day before running angles , lots of dry time and a nice corner to run into wet . Little off topic but , is anyone else doing the same ?


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

taper2 said:


> In passing through looked as though Alberta esp. Calgary still hopping, houses going up like mushrooms can definately see the need for sanding crews , saw an add from a guy out there offering sanding at 9 cents a foot . I think that guy would ask for more if there was no quick scuff sand. lol . personally would never skip a scuff with the pole to start the . As well as doing 3 ways day before running angles , lots of dry time and a nice corner to run into wet . Little off topic but , is anyone else doing the same ?


Everyone is the same, except for Moose boy:thumbup:


----------



## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

taper2 said:


> As well as doing 3 ways day before running angles , lots of dry time and a nice corner to run into wet . Little off topic but , is anyone else doing the same ?


You do your 3 ways *a day before* doing angles? 

Interesting!! :blink:


----------



## sdrdrywall (Sep 4, 2010)

We also do our 3ways the day before angles then just a nice tight pull when doing angles.


----------



## taper2 (May 13, 2012)

On a site here the builder provided a guy who came in after the job was completed and scraped floors, vaced the walls and did total cleanout . Big customs , great sevice for all the trades all the trades .


----------



## machinemud (Jul 21, 2010)

sdrdrywall said:


> We also do our 3ways the day before angles then just a nice tight pull when doing angles.


Yeah me too!


----------



## taper2 (May 13, 2012)

would an ex girlfriend asking you to remain friends be the equivilent to kidnappers asking you to keep in touch after releasing you ?


----------



## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

sdrdrywall said:


> We also do our 3ways the day before angles then just a nice tight pull when doing angles.


Same here using a 5". Or when I first coat everything the day after taping just in case I feel drying time is not going to go well. But usually the day before is enough. But then, when I pick my 3-ways while taping I will give them a decent semi-fill with my 4". Final tight with a 6" is a breeze.


----------



## sdrdrywall (Sep 4, 2010)

Been using that squared off 6"advance knife its the best I've found for 3points.


----------



## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

taper2 said:


> would an ex girlfriend asking you to remain friends be the equivilent to kidnappers asking you to keep in touch after releasing you ?


Not sure what this is about, on this thread. But I suppose, if you have some pretty strong feelings for her. Or is it that she's a relationship you'd rather put behind you and move on from?


----------



## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

DLSdrywall said:


> That was said like we're working in the same house lol. sometimes i get to a closet i forgot to rough sand... i feel guilty scraping it hahaha:whistling2:


i straight up forgot to tape a little closet the other day. it had a door on it and stayed closed and i missed it until final sand. i had to tape it with forty minute and coat the angles, flats and sand all in the space of a few hours. i just put a heater in it and gave it as best a sand as i could before i left. if it was not a little closet that no one will ever notice it would be totally unacceptable.:whistling2:


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

carpentaper said:


> i straight up forgot to tape a little closet the other day. it had a door on it and stayed closed and i missed it until final sand. i had to tape it with forty minute and coat the angles, flats and sand all in the space of a few hours. i just put a heater in it and gave it as best a sand as i could before i left. if it was not a little closet that no one will ever notice it would be totally unacceptable.:whistling2:


You BC boys and your BC big bud







:whistling2:


----------



## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

I always do my angles after my angles, let it seize enough, just a little tip i use a 5 inch i file the rounded sides straight so when i do my 3-ways the side dosen't dig in to the angle


----------



## Whosnxt1776 (Oct 4, 2012)

We use an 8 and 10. Our work comes out just fine no need for another coat unless its going to be glossy paint in which case we charge for running a third coat with a 12. 

This brings up something else I have noticed. Here in Nashville there are about 10 white crews left finishing. The rest are from south of the border. I don't understand some of their techiques. Almost all of them think you have to bust out your butt joints to about 50 inches. They look like bed sheets! If a house takes my father and I 30 boxes to finish, It will take the mexican crew we have 45. We bust our butts with a 10 box on either side and fill them in with a 12 inch knife wiping down. We never see our joints on touch up, but I still see some of the mexicans. Which is because a lot of them will tape and coat before the tape drys.


----------



## Bevelation (Dec 20, 2008)

It feels as though I rough sand less running 7/10/12, but I think it's because I'm actually rough sanding twice during the process. I leave the flats alone between 7 and 10 and brush maybe the butts and bead.

I will usually 3 coat on flat ceilings regardless, but the last job I did I filled it all by hand and used the power of another taper to get the job done.


----------

