# Union/non-union



## BPTaper (Jul 31, 2012)

Hey you maniacs:thumbup:

got a union job offer from Denver....anyone here from the area?

I live in Nebraska and we want to relocate....no not for weed....fiance' lived there for 17 years before having to move back here to take care of her mom

just need a quick reply...never belonged to a union.dont know the pros and cons..will I have the chance to find Jimmy Hoffa?:thumbup:


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

First, I don't know about Denver, and I respect all labor whether it be union, or not. I joined the Carpenters when I was 18 and went to work in the SF bay area. Tapers joined the Painters and Allied Trades. I never knew any difference really until I got older. Tapers had 25 and out, and ours was 30 years to your pension. Every Feb I'd get a vacation check, and I always had great healthcare, dental, and vision. In 2010 dues were $20 a month, but they'd get $1.65 for every hour I worked, so dues were over 3k a year. Wages were $36.50, vacation, $2.75, and annuity $3. This is above pension credits. I've always thought if you can work union you should unless your in business for yourself and are making a killing.
I retired at 52 with 33 years. $3625 a month, but they take $906 for healthcare. I draw a small amount from my IRA annually, and I do custom programming for EFI for street rods. Last year I got a check back from a healthcare rebate of 2k. I worked for the union as an apprenticeship instructor and loved the students, but would have fired half of the management if they worked for me in the field. I quit and went back in the field in 2007. I still feel I was better off being union than not. At least for me, because not everyone has the opportunity, or desire to live in the rat race. San Jose in 2000 would take 1 1/2 hrs to go 30 miles home.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

I started walking stilts at 1 years old:yes: LOL! ...But when I dropped out of school at 15 and went to work with Dad full time I fell I love with the scaffold !

Setting It up..Working off It ..Breaking It down. I loved It! 

At that time I had no fear of heights . I guess My Dad noticed this ..Cause around the age of 18/19 My Dad tried to talk me into to getting a job with Safeway . He said you'll half to join the Union ...And you'll half to travel ,but Your young and single !!! By the time your 50 you can retire.

Looking back now.....I should have listened !


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## BPTaper (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm 47, maybe I'm too old for union.Lord knows I'm getting close to being to old for drywall finishing.

With GCs around here charging homeowners 200% (on average) on top of what I charge them its making it hard for me to even want to go to work.

A few homeowners we did work for found out,word spread and the contractors I worked for lost a ****load of work because of their greed. Brilliant business savy :thumbup:

I cant compete with drywall companies 70 miles away that get a bucket for 10.99 at Menards when I have to pay 21.99 at the local hillbilly lumber yard. 
So who knows...union or non union...time to relocate:yes:


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## BPTaper (Jul 31, 2012)

...oh and by the way..its so bad around here that when I proposed to a few local lumber yards the new Fresco Harmony system..they wont even sell mud to me....my mother in law had heard they were offended because it would cut into their paint sales

who wants to move to north central Nebraska...anyone? anyone?


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## Mudslinger (Mar 16, 2008)

BPTaper said:


> I'm 47, maybe I'm too old for union.Lord knows I'm getting close to being to old for drywall finishing.
> 
> With GCs around here charging homeowners 200% (on average) on top of what I charge them its making it hard for me to even want to go to work.
> 
> ...


Why not get a 1 ton cube van(e450 would be better) and make the drive to Menards? Load it up with 80 buckets of all purpose, or even more if you mixed some light weight in. Even after fuel you would be making some good money for taking a drive, and have them forklift some mud into your truck. Not to mention the satisfaction of sticking it to hillbilly lumber yard.


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## BPTaper (Jul 31, 2012)

Van wouldnt make sense at this time.Because of the contractors greed we lost a lot of work over the next several months.

I just want the F out of here.Looking at other options

We just got done with a total remodel of our house and we cant even sell it for profit.Its a bad market with the high material cost and the greed of every GC that holds a hammer

I hate Nebraska Go Big Red=Go Be Dead


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## Mudslinger (Mar 16, 2008)

BPTaper said:


> Van wouldnt make sense at this time.Because of the contractors greed we lost a lot of work over the next several months.
> 
> I just want the F out of here.Looking at other options
> 
> ...


I understand, but a cube van would help you get the he!! out of there when it's time.


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## Magic (Feb 20, 2014)

I couldn't care less what the guys who give me work make. As long as I get paid im good with that. 
All that jealousy over greed gets a guys mind all twisted.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Magic said:


> I couldn't care less what the guys who give me work make. As long as I get paid im good with that.
> All that jealousy over greed gets a guys mind all twisted.


I heard that! ..You just scrape .scrape and hope to scrape up some more! Your either a HUGE D/C that could care less about quality or your a small time D/C that really cares about the detail and the trade you love . There Is no in between ! From what I've seen That's pretty well what It boils down to ..The big man running the big crews puts out the worst work.. Truck ass D/Cs are just like Truck ass G/Cs ....They don't know there ass from a hole in the ground when It comes to real work ...Or what It takes to put out a fine tuned job. don't really make a chit tho! 
10-12 years from now there will no need for this forum unless it's in Spanish .


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

Everybody thinks the other guy is making too much. Everybody thinks they know of what the other guy's markup is. But with fairly low barriers to entry, and abundant competition in most places, it is hard to overcharge customers over a medium to long time frame and stay in business. I don't know of any general contractor who can get work consistently marking up their work with a 100 % profit margin. Getting back to the original post, I hear that Denver construction is hot right now. I used to be in the union 20-25 years ago and worked for Delta Drywall and Denver Drywall when they worked up in the mountains. For a while mountain non union scale was higher than Denver union scale. But after a couple of decades of illegal immigration the pay scale has got a lot worse here in the mountains. Non union scale in Denver is laughable. I'm sure that union scale is not too bad.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

In my area, there is no union work. If I was in the union I'd have to put 4 hours on the road each day:blink: traveling to Philly the Pocono area or who knows where. I've worked on some jobs with union trades, most are great some are [email protected], yelling scab after they turn the corner. Writing threats in the chitters. I say put the [email protected] in my shoes and see what he does. No offense to union guys, unless you're a [email protected]


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## boco (Oct 29, 2010)

I have been on both sides of the fence. My experience with union if the have work they will use you. If they dont. your on your own. When i was in I always stayed working but traveling an hour and a half one way daily was normal. Anyway when you get to Colorado send me a free sample.


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

“Union mentality- Too many people doing too little work for too much money going on strike for more days off. “ Frank Zappa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWXUatVuxQg


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> “Union mentality- Too many people doing too little work for too much money going on strike for more days off. “ Frank Zappa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWXUatVuxQghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWXUatVuxQghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWXUatVuxQg


 So we should believe a drug crazed hippie that got to much money? Only the hardest workers stayed where I worked period. You either got something done, or you got 2 checks. This idea that union building trades workers are lazy is the exact opposite of the truth. I started in piecework drywall for Christ's sakes. How can you be lazy when you get paid by the foot?


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## endo_alley (Nov 2, 2013)

To set the matter straight, Zappa didn't use drugs. And very little alcohol. And much of the subject matter of his music made fun of the hippies and popular culture. And since when did union workers get paid by the piece? That is non union compensation. Any how I have nothing against unions as long as the law doesn't force people to join them in order to get employment. Admittedly, Zappa felt otherwise. I've seen good and bad work in both union and non union jobs.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

endo_alley said:


> To set the matter straight, Zappa didn't use drugs. And very little alcohol. And much of the subject matter of his music made fun of the hippies and popular culture. And since when did union workers get paid by the piece? That is non union compensation. Any how I have nothing against unions as long as the law doesn't force people to join them in order to get employment. Admittedly, Zappa felt otherwise. I've seen good and bad work in both union and non union jobs.


Piecework residential is legal in Northern California Carpenters as of today. I did it and many others and made a lot of money. I refuse to get political, but hard work is not just non union, so when you make those statements you're calling me lazy and that's not right. I'll say it again, I respect all labor. The per hour package was $64 an hr including benefits when I retired. Do you think I expected production from my men? Otherwise, you'd get 2 checks. The worst was having to call the hall for people, and I didn't do it often. I'd call the secretary and prepare her to make checks. Hire 6, and layoff 4. All within the rules.

I do not believe in right to work laws, because its premise is flawed and leaves a few paying for others. That is crap! Zappa was never mainstream and not something I ever listened to.

In California you have to be union to do big work. With big work comes potential for big profits.

I'm 3rd generation retired Carpenter. When I got my job teaching Apprenticeship my dad gave me an Instructors manual from the 50's. Turns out my grandfather taught apprenticeship too. I've only seen this book I have one other place and that is behind glass in the International Training Center Las Vegas. No petty rhetoric can take away the pride I feel with such tradition in my family. You might want to think twice before labeling people. I used to love to run hard even in my last few years. My saying was I liked when we're slow, because my bags went on!


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

$64 an hour to hang 20 sheets in 1 day! Man! That must have been sweet!! :whistling2:


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

moore said:


> $64 an hour to hang 20 sheets in 1 day! Man! That must have been sweet!! :whistling2:


 Stop, because I have deep respect for you Moore. Any man that provides for his family deserves it.

Wages was 44 12's in residential piecework. $64 includes the benefit package, and if you're commuting into SF you're earning it. I'd leave at 4, and get home at 5.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

MrWillys said:


> Stop, because I have deep respect for you Moore. Any man that provides for his family deserves it.
> 
> Wages was 44 12's in residential piecework. $64 includes the benefit package, and if you're commuting into SF you're earning it. I'd leave at 4, and get home at 5.


44 12s in a day is an easy day for 2 men....I've hung that many alone in a 10 hour day ! But that was just my stupidity !!!!!:yes:


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

moore said:


> 44 12s in a day is an easy day for 2 men....I've hung that many alone in a 10 hour day ! But that was just my stupidity !!!!!:yes:


 Each, or 88 for two Mr I want to be argumentative tonight.


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

I was union for 12 years. O. P. C. M. A. Local 67 Detroit. It was good for learning the trade. By the time i got my journeyman's card i had made over $100,000. Some of my friends were graduating college with $80,000 in debt. The chit hit the fan in 2008 the plastering company i worked for closed shop after 80 years in business. I had an opportunity to go back, but i never looked back. I am grateful for what all the old-timers taught me. 

If your going to work for a contractor, work for a union contractor. If your going to be a contractor, stay away from them.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

MrWillys said:


> Each, or 88 for two Mr I want to be argumentative tonight.


Read the post again Willy . I can ...or could hang 40 boards in a day by myself ! But It seems those days are over ...for now! I just need a little time to get back on track !!!


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## McCallum and Sons (Nov 3, 2013)

I agree with Mr Willis, I learned in the 80s in the SF Bay Area and the guys that I worked with during those years were some of the best tradesmen I ever worked with. People took pride in their trade and worked harder than anyone I have worked with side by side since. My uncle retired from the Painters and Tapers Union in SJ and is now working with the carpenters union part time on easy TI jobs. We need to recruit more young people in to the trades instead of just giving it up to the Hispanics like its the Alamo again. I love my trade and take pride in the work we put out and its fed my family for decades.


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## BPTaper (Jul 31, 2012)

Magic said:


> I couldn't care less what the guys who give me work make. As long as I get paid im good with that.
> All that jealousy over greed gets a guys mind all twisted.


I dont care what they make either.I do care when the homeowners asked what my price is because they have friends/family who need work done.And when they find out how much the GC is gouging them,word gets around,people find other contractors who do their own finish work or have their own finishers they like to use.


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## BPTaper (Jul 31, 2012)

endo_alley said:


> Everybody thinks the other guy is making too much. Everybody thinks they know of what the other guy's markup is. But with fairly low barriers to entry, and abundant competition in most places, it is hard to overcharge customers over a medium to long time frame and stay in business. I don't know of any general contractor who can get work consistently marking up their work with a 100 % profit margin. Getting back to the original post, I hear that Denver construction is hot right now. I used to be in the union 20-25 years ago and worked for Delta Drywall and Denver Drywall when they worked up in the mountains. For a while mountain non union scale was higher than Denver union scale. But after a couple of decades of illegal immigration the pay scale has got a lot worse here in the mountains. Non union scale in Denver is laughable. I'm sure that union scale is not too bad.


I was offered a job from 2 different companies last Friday for 22.50/hr and 19.00/hr plus bennies...non union.Another contractor told me the mexicans are getting weeded out in the Denver area due to GCs not wanting to deal with all the BS...by BS I took that as being illegal...I didnt push.After speaking with several contractors in the area the past week or so,the whole front range fro C.Springs to Ft.Collins is booming.

Union/non union...dont matter to me I guess...I just want to get the F out of Nebraska


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