# screw pops???



## CE Drywall (Sep 6, 2010)

Got a call from a builder last nght. He says that every screw in the field has popped. My hangers glued the heck out of the place, and average screws in the field would be two for 12' sheet. I did a repair there a couple weeks agoa dn saw a pop. It looked like the mud fell off rather then movement of the screw/board.

I know I am going to have to fix it, but any thoughts on what to tell the builder?


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

My guess is he didnt supply you with proper heat? If thats true I would tell him to follow the USG codes of finishing drywall in cold climates!!


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## rebel20 (Jun 4, 2009)

Maybe oil film on screws

rebel


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## ghost (Jan 14, 2008)

The wood had too high moisture content. When the wood shrunk it pulled the Drywall with it because it was glued to the studs.the screws are deeper in the wood and did notpull in at the same rate. You can call national gypsum they can send you a link that explains.


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

When screws are place in wood that is too high in moister it will do all kinds of funny things, the longer the screw the more the problems. As the wood drys it shrinks forcing outward pressure on the screw the more thread in the wood the more it will pop ( the shorter screws the better). It could be it popped out just enough to break the mud off only on the head of the screw, the deeper the screw there would be more evidence so your screws must have been set perfect if it is only falling off the head, if that makes any sense.


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

learn to screw the sheets properly. 2 screws on a 12 fter? How bout 6 screws per stud on lay downs! Every 10"


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## D's (Jan 15, 2009)

Switch to foam adhesive on walls, it's retains flexibility and requires next to no screws in the fields. If there are drying in problems and the adhesive fails, then the worst case is you'll have a rattle in the sheet when you bang on it rather than visible screw pops.


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## Titan Drywall (Feb 16, 2010)

IMO. I think wet wood has a lot to do with it, but i think glue is more of the cause. What in the hell is this guy talking about. Think about it for one sec. We glue drywall and think we are pushing all the glue out and getting the board snug to the wall...right? We push on it with our shoulder and knee thinking we are pushing it tight to the stud, but i think we are fooling ourself. The screw gun does not help because it has a set depth to stop. I have demoed tons of rock and have never seen rock pulled tight to the stud. I always see about 1/8 inch between board and stud, so my thinking....maybe..just maybe...its the glue curing. Look at cure rates for glue at OSI web page. 3 to 7 days Note: Cure time is dependent upon application conditions such as, temperature, humidity and amount of adhesive applied. 3-7 days if its good temps, but when it gets cold it takes longer maybe a good 12 days or so. So, in that 12 days we mud up the walls and everything is looking good. Then we have frozen wet wood and slow curing glue behind the walls. The screw will always stay in the same place. when the wood thaws and drys, it drys away from the screw. Much like if you place a nail in a live tree, the tree will grow around the nail, but that is the reverse process. You must understand this to see what i am saying. So, glue cures as it losses its solvent, and wood drys and pulls the board in, causing the screw head to pop up ever so slightly. It pulls the board in because its glued, if it didn't have glue this would not be a problem. I have a few houses a winter do this to me, and its only on the houses I glue. I have drywall over 15k houses and this is just what i think....do not have a degree in building science. The industry need a better glue, and i don't think foam is the answer. I tried getting my guys set up on foam a few years ago. I spent 1500 on guns and cleaning solvent, and after one week they were clogged up. I also had a can blow up on a guy, and has no open time maybe 5 min in hot temps. What we need is a glue that has a good open time like 90 mins, and setts like durabond, so there is no movement after its set time. Am i loco or what, you tell me:whistling2:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Titan Drywall said:


> IMO. I think wet wood has a lot to do with it, but i think glue is more of the cause. What in the hell is this guy talking about. Think about it for one sec. We glue drywall and think we are pushing all the glue out and getting the board snug to the wall...right? We push on it with our shoulder and knee thinking we are pushing it tight to the stud, but i think we are fooling ourself. The screw gun does not help because it has a set depth to stop. I have demoed tons of rock and have never seen rock pulled tight to the stud. I always see about 1/8 inch between board and stud, so my thinking....maybe..just maybe...its the glue curing. Look at cure rates for glue at OSI web page. 3 to 7 days Note: Cure time is dependent upon application conditions such as, temperature, humidity and amount of adhesive applied. 3-7 days if its good temps, but when it gets cold it takes longer maybe a good 12 days or so. So, in that 12 days we mud up the walls and everything is looking good. Then we have frozen wet wood and slow curing glue behind the walls. The screw will always stay in the same place. when the wood thaws and drys, it drys away from the screw. Much like if you place a nail in a live tree, the tree will grow around the nail, but that is the reverse process. You must understand this to see what i am saying. So, glue cures as it losses its solvent, and wood drys and pulls the board in, causing the screw head to pop up ever so slightly. It pulls the board in because its glued, if it didn't have glue this would not be a problem. I have a few houses a winter do this to me, and its only on the houses I glue. I have drywall over 15k houses and this is just what i think....do not have a degree in building science. The industry need a better glue, and i don't think foam is the answer. I tried getting my guys set up on foam a few years ago. I spent 1500 on guns and cleaning solvent, and after one week they were clogged up. I also had a can blow up on a guy, and has no open time maybe 5 min in hot temps. What we need is a glue that has a good open time like 90 mins, and setts like durabond, so there is no movement after its set time. Am i loco or what, you tell me:whistling2:


 
Sounds like your switched on titan, We had the same probs here when the glue first arrived, everyone went mad with it and glued everywhere and screwed through the glue, BIG no no, screw pops everywhere, Then they send out new info on glue and srew placings, Helped solve a lot but if your framing is damp then it will shrink and pop screws as well, Here it 18% moisture content before they allow lining but i think thats still to high, I have seen houses lined at this then they get the underfloor heating going and summer arrives the framing drops its moisture content and pops and cracks up the house. The longer you can leave the framing exposed to dry the better, Also the board absorbs damp as well, Its very wet here in spring and the board takes up the damp, which will then dry and pop screws later on as well.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Titan Drywall said:


> . I have drywall over 15k houses and this is just what i think....do not have a degree in building science.


Holy smokes! That's a lot of houses! If you did 200 houses a year that would take 75 years, and that's roughly a house every two days!


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## D's (Jan 15, 2009)

Titan, I agree that your typical mastic adhesive creates drying out and screw pop problems. The mastic must be under pressure to smear across the studs because of it's viscosity, and that requires more screws defeating the purpose. If not done properly, you're left with big globs of adhesive between the board and framing that shrinks when drying out causing the pops. This doesn't happen with the foam adhesive, which immediately smears across the framing and is fully cured in 4 hours. It does have a low open time so you have to screw off right away. I think that your bad experience with the foam guns is that you used gun cleaner. Apparently the solvent only attacks the foaming agent not the glue, so the residue would end up causing a clog. If left with a non-empty can and the needle valve fully advanced, the guns don't clog. I've had mine for the last year and a half, and they're good as new(the Hilti ones are great).


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

Titan Drywall said:


> IMO. I think wet wood has a lot to do with it, but i think glue is more of the cause. What in the hell is this guy talking about. Think about it for one sec. We glue drywall and think we are pushing all the glue out and getting the board snug to the wall...right? We push on it with our shoulder and knee thinking we are pushing it tight to the stud, but i think we are fooling ourself. The screw gun does not help because it has a set depth to stop. I have demoed tons of rock and have never seen rock pulled tight to the stud. I always see about 1/8 inch between board and stud, so my thinking....maybe..just maybe...its the glue curing. Look at cure rates for glue at OSI web page. 3 to 7 days Note: Cure time is dependent upon application conditions such as, temperature, humidity and amount of adhesive applied. 3-7 days if its good temps, but when it gets cold it takes longer maybe a good 12 days or so. So, in that 12 days we mud up the walls and everything is looking good. Then we have frozen wet wood and slow curing glue behind the walls. The screw will always stay in the same place. when the wood thaws and drys, it drys away from the screw. Much like if you place a nail in a live tree, the tree will grow around the nail, but that is the reverse process. You must understand this to see what i am saying. So, glue cures as it losses its solvent, and wood drys and pulls the board in, causing the screw head to pop up ever so slightly. It pulls the board in because its glued, if it didn't have glue this would not be a problem. I have a few houses a winter do this to me, and its only on the houses I glue. I have drywall over 15k houses and this is just what i think....do not have a degree in building science. The industry need a better glue, and i don't think foam is the answer. I tried getting my guys set up on foam a few years ago. I spent 1500 on guns and cleaning solvent, and after one week they were clogged up. I also had a can blow up on a guy, and has no open time maybe 5 min in hot temps. What we need is a glue that has a good open time like 90 mins, and setts like durabond, so there is no movement after its set time. Am i loco or what, you tell me:whistling2:


I suppose in theory with the glue this could happen , but in order for that to happen there wouldn't there have to be a great deal of thickness of adhesive. Frozen wood well I would have to say that this would be more of an issue. 15k are you talking square footage or more than 15,000 homes? That one would be hard to swallow unless you are a General Contractor doing track homes... 30 years that would be 500 homes a year that would be about 10 homes a week average-- I don't---think so .... I know some like to exaggerate but get real...


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

CE Drywall said:


> Got a call from a builder last nght. He says that every screw in the field has popped. My hangers glued the heck out of the place, and average screws in the field would be two for 12' sheet. I did a repair there a couple weeks agoa dn saw a pop. It looked like the mud fell off rather then movement of the screw/board.
> 
> I know I am going to have to fix it, but any thoughts on what to tell the builder?


not enough information being shared here.everyone here is talking the glue or the screws poping.you yourself state Gc says the screws are poping,but you state it looks like the mud just "fell off",,,,,which is it,did you use hot mud or something,soap with hot mud,
So what material,what was the environment,were the walls painted
if the walls were painted,blame the painter:whistling2:


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## Titan Drywall (Feb 16, 2010)

silverstilts said:


> I suppose in theory with the glue this could happen , but in order for that to happen there wouldn't there have to be a great deal of thickness of adhesive. Frozen wood well I would have to say that this would be more of an issue. 15k are you talking square footage or more than 15,000 homes? That one would be hard to swallow unless you are a General Contractor doing track homes... 30 years that would be 500 homes a year that would be about 10 homes a week average-- I don't---think so .... I know some like to exaggerate but get real...


I don't know just my crazy idea about the glue, take it for whats its worth. Let me clear up the 15k houses it seams some people have such a hard time bending their brain around. I have not myself rocked that much as in doing the labor myself. Thru the 25 years I have had as many as 30-70 guys working for me at any given time. Hanger, Finishers, Sanders, Texture, and even a crew for clean up. 3 office people and 5 touch-up guys. During that time we went thur the biggest housing boom known to man....so yea 15k, but i must say there was basements, additions and small jobs in the mix. Hope you can breath a little easer now. I don't miss it one bit...I will take my two houses a week running 8 guys


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## CE Drywall (Sep 6, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> not enough information being shared here.everyone here is talking the glue or the screws poping.you yourself state Gc says the screws are poping,but you state it looks like the mud just "fell off",,,,,which is it,did you use hot mud or something,soap with hot mud,
> So what material,what was the environment,were the walls painted
> if the walls were painted,blame the painter:whistling2:


 
Here's the details.

The house had been insulated with wet app. cellulose a few days before I got there. The GC didn't supply heat until I was gone, but this was a while back,so the average low temps in the house would have been around 60F. 

The hanger used approx. 6 boxes OSI for the 15k sq ft. The field was screwed off every other stud @ 16" centers, with 1 1/4" grabbers. 

The first coat was quick-set with two coats of magnum all-purpose over that. All looked great when I left. We sand with 300 watt balbs in hand, so we didn't miss them, they popped after we left.

Now, GC is there with heat. He has primed everything and painted a couple rooms. I went back and I see that EVERY screw in the field has pushed out 1/16" but had not broken the mud.

I've been in and out of hundreds of houses, pops happen from time to time. But I have never seen it in the whole house, every wall.


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

Its the hot mud first coat --never use it on screw heads---NEVER!!!!!


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

It could only be 3 things improper material, screw depth or loose board.

It still amazes me the details you guys go into and how you blame others for your poor workmanship.

move on .....................get back to work you slackers


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## taper71 (Dec 9, 2007)

Mudstar said:


> It could only be 3 things improper material, screw depth or loose board.
> 
> It still amazes me the details you guys go into and how you blame others for your poor workmanship.
> 
> move on .....................get back to work you slackers


 
Mudstar doesn't beleive in building science...he just believes whats in his own mind:jester: 

From what you are describing I would have to agree that the studs have shrunk when the heat was finally consistent.
What I have learned about glue is you are supposed to screw to get the board tight to the studs , but then they are supposed to be removed to prevent screw popping . I cant give any opinion on setting compound for screws, but know that screw depth would not be an issue because the glue would hold it tight unless it was in areas that do not get glued like the ceiling and outside walls. Anyways If that were my job I would be eating the cost of fixing it to keep good graces with the builder, but giving a lecture as to why it is important to have consitent heat when at the finishing stages of the home building process This is why pricing for me is so different between different builders. Some builders are just too ignorant to understand or learn and only care about the money, so these are the guys that get a higher price to account for all the times I have to go back and fix and pretend its my fault :thumbsup:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

dsjohn is right
mudstar wants you to do this to him:notworthy:
taper71 is right,and to add to it,just a guess here,with the hotmuds being used on the 1st coat on the screws,then lets say the painter sprayed and didn't back roll,this may of made the screws swell,(from the hotmud plus paint)
thanks for more info,here's a good thread cazna started on curing/dry time http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/curing-drying-time-1331/
we may still be able to blame this on the painter yet:thumbsup:


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## CE Drywall (Sep 6, 2010)

*No hot mud?*

I've never heard that, most guys around here do it that way. We run around, pre-fill gaps, around tubs, and spot the nails. What is the thinking behind staying away from hot mud? I am always looking for better ways to do things, and if it keeps me from getting called back, I'll give anything a shot.

By the way, I am eating the cost of fixing this. I just don't want him to think poorly of the work so I wanted to have other thoughts to present the GC with.


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

Not giving you proper heat[before drywall is even installed] is his fault---you need to get this thru all gc,s heads. Using hot mud for screws leaves a ring you cant get rid of, use reg mud for your screws, proper heat 24/7 before during and aftr you leave or ask them to sign a waiver!!!!!!!!


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## CE Drywall (Sep 6, 2010)

Maybe the "hot mud" you guys use is different. I us USG or Proform easy sand. I know some guys use the USG in the brown bag and it doesn't sand well. Would that make a difference in the don't use hot mud aspect?


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

CE Drywall said:


> Maybe the "hot mud" you guys use is different. I us USG or Proform easy sand. I know some guys use the USG in the brown bag and it doesn't sand well. Would that make a difference in the don't use hot mud aspect?


I can't speak for the hotmud product that you use,but in general they tend to set 1st (of coarse) then can take a long period of time to dry.applying regular mud over them tends to keep the hotmud moist,again affecting drying time.hotmuds do not have as much glue in them like proper taping mud.(mud meant to lay tape and fasten beads{not lite or all purpose}) plus hotmuds can be considered to be too brittle.
I find most guys in my area keep away from hotmuds,they cause more problems than their worth.stuff that is too hard to explain by typing.if you insist on using them,I would at least mix some regular mud with it,half and half mix


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## CE Drywall (Sep 6, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> I can't speak for the hotmud product that you use,but in general they tend to set 1st (of coarse) then can take a long period of time to dry.applying regular mud over them tends to keep the hotmud moist,again affecting drying time.hotmuds do not have as much glue in them like proper taping mud.(mud meant to lay tape and fasten beads{not lite or all purpose}) plus hotmuds can be considered to be too brittle.
> I find most guys in my area keep away from hotmuds,they cause more problems than their worth.stuff that is too hard to explain by typing.if you insist on using them,I would at least mix some regular mud with it,half and half mix


 
Good thoughts. Again, some things really vary by region. We use "quick-set" to first coat our bead as well. I don't know anyone locally that uses anything else for bead. It's usually one coat of quick-set 2 of either AP or topping. I have used AP on paper faced bead and it looks great, but AP on vinyl just goes to hell.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

I concur with DSJohn and 2buck,,, don't use any type of setting mud on screws,,,, unless you enjoy being bit in the butt.

You mentioned that you pre-fill with 20 min,, I do too, but then I throw the rest away, I don't spot screws with it.

Also, I don't use glue for any reason either, I know, thats another thread


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

This is not a problem with metal stud work , glued or not glued. Done work on house's that were not glued . Same problem with the field screws. ??????


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

CE Drywall said:


> Good thoughts. Again, some things really vary by region. We use "quick-set" to first coat our bead as well. I don't know anyone locally that uses anything else for bead. It's usually one coat of quick-set 2 of either AP or topping. I have used AP on paper faced bead and it looks great, but AP on vinyl just goes to hell.


bead is about the only thing I see guys use the hotmuds on.1st coat only,they still go a 50 -50 mix,or are throwing a few big hand fulls of hotmud with their mud,from what I see,can't speak for all of them,thats on paper bead.
I work for a large drywall company,and I know that most guys don't use the hotmuds,just on rare occasions,patches etc....most of the builders we work for give us a good working environment,heat even in the summer,and dehumidifiers etc so....


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