# Help! - why seams bubbled 3+ weeks after finish?



## kodie (Aug 2, 2017)

Here are before and after pictures, 4 weeks later. Really at a loss here - got a text from GC today saying 'disaster' w/ the attached finished room picture. 

Short of it: What went wrong? How do we correct it so that the problem does not return? Apparently all the seams in this room are showing at least some bubbling. We've not run into this issue before and can't figure out what we did differently.

FAQ: Mud = blue lid; Tape = standard paper drywall tape; Mixed w water = yes; Applied mud thick = yes; Apply tape quickly = yes (2 man per seam - 1 standing on baker at top, mud 1/2 way down, start paper at top, 2nd man continue mud to bottom, hold tape tight to bottom, top man begin wiping tape/angled knife pressing tape & mud squeezing out sides, 2nd man continuing to bottom; rinse repeat.

Long story: 
The Project:
The room was a storage area attached to an office which they are converting to a conf room. Carpenter installed metal framing. We hung & finished the drywall. Pictures show pretty much the last day spent on this room.

We spent a lot of time making sure everything was smooth and flush incl inspecting closely w/ shining lights across every part of the walls to find imperfections. The weather at that time was consistently hot and humid. There was A/C running in the building, but there were days in the building that were quite warm and muggy - not all, but some. For the project, we had multiple box fans as well as two air movers. Only two overnights were we allowed to keep the fans on. Still, we were confident all mud dried completely before proceeding with next coats and/or sanding.

After completing this room, the GC inspected our work and gave us a big thumbs up. We were on site the next few days doing patchwork in another area, so we were able to check on our work even after the completion - no problems were noted. Also, we were able to talk to the painter a few days after who inspected the walls and also was impressed, didn't have anything for us to correct.

What went wrong? How do we correct it so that the problem does not return? We've not run into this issue before and can't figure out what we did differently.


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

I think light could be the issue here mate judging by your pics If you run your sheets the other way it would hide a lot this as the sun light is not going across the joint 
And if not your joints are over filled 


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

Looks like a bad drywall job to me. 


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## krafty (Jun 30, 2016)

Gotta double break stand-ups on high light walls.(Like a butt joint)


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

I deal with stand ups all the time and they don't look like that!:blink:
That joints r way over filled!!


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Rough finish, day light and the colour of paint ..... go with level 5


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

keke said:


> Rough finish, day light and the colour of paint ..... go with level 5
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't think L5 would cure that!!!:blink:
Maybe a whole scim of the wall would help.:thumbsup:


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## kodie (Aug 2, 2017)

Thanks for all the feedback.:thumbsup:

GC required vertical hung boards, not uncommon on commercial jobs around here.
For what it's worth, the darker paint color with higher sheen on the soundboard by the window was unexpected.

UPDATE after today's visit:

There is NO lifting, bubbles, puckering nor any cracking at all. 
The soundboard walls are the major issue. 
We inspected with a spotlight and 4' metal straight edge over the seams.

The seams were flush despite the scary picture (and having been schooled on the 'sloppiness' of our edges, which I don't disagree/will improve), with the exception of a couple of seams, not all, with approx. 6-10" area with approx. 1/16 - 1/8" high point, the rest were flush.

So, upon closer inspection, the darkness seen in the picture around the seams is not a ridge shadow but is instead discoloration. The lighter area around the seams are as well, or simply appears lighter due to the very visible shine there.

All of the seams, on the soundboard and most standard sheetrock walls, are shiny.
We also noted in the existing office area, which was also freshly painted, our minor patching can be seen when looking at the wall at an angle because those spots are also 'shiny'.

The client noted that the wall looks perfect when the overhead lights are on and joked about just never turning them off :jester:


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

kodie said:


> Here are before and after pictures, 4 weeks later. Really at a loss here - got a text from GC today saying 'disaster' w/ the attached finished room picture.
> 
> Short of it: What went wrong? How do we correct it so that the problem does not return? Apparently all the seams in this room are showing at least some bubbling. We've not run into this issue before and can't figure out what we did differently.
> 
> ...


 This is why the gypsum association recommends level 5 for all areas that receive direct lighting. What you're seeing is called joint photographing where the paint gets absorbed into the joint compound at a faster rate than the paper surface. What level finish do the job specifications call for? Brightstar showed me a new surface prep product from USG that might solve this problem. 

https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/.../usg-sheetrock-tuff-hide-primer-surfacer.html


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## kodie (Aug 2, 2017)

MrWillys said:


> This is why the gypsum association recommends level 5 for all areas that receive direct lighting. What you're seeing is called joint photographing where the paint gets absorbed into the joint compound at a faster rate than the paper surface. What level finish do the job specifications call for? Brightstar showed me a new surface prep product from USG that might solve this problem.
> 
> https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/.../usg-sheetrock-tuff-hide-primer-surfacer.html


Thank you and thank you for the link, that looks like a very interesting product.



MrWillys said:


> What you're seeing is called joint photographing where the paint gets absorbed into the joint compound at a faster rate than the paper surface.


That was my impression as well.

I added an Update post above if you would be inclined to comment further based on the additional details.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

kodie said:


> Thank you and thank you for the link, that looks like a very interesting product.
> 
> I added an Update post above if you would be inclined to comment further based on the additional details.


Were you contracted to level 4? If so, it is not your fault. One could argue you should have told them about level 5 at areas that receive natural lighting? See the last of page 3 and the beginning of page 4 here:

http://www.lafarge-na.com/GA-214-10e.pdf

I would add that my guys would thin topping compound and roll it on with a paint roller and wipe it down and then sand. I've never tried the other product I posted and don't know if it can be sanded.


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## kodie (Aug 2, 2017)

Thank you for all your feedback.



MrWillys said:


> What level finish do the job specifications call for?


FYI - GC did not ask for Level 5. Other than wanting it to be ready for the painter, he did not indicate any specific level. 

I'm likely to get raked over the coals here, but believe it or not, those seams are 2 coats, lightly sand + skim. 

We received and accept these forum comments...


We've already been schooled on the 'sloppy' edges - despite that, they were flush as indicated in my update post above.
We've been told that we should have brought the edges out another 6"+ on both sides of the seam.
We've also been told we are simply poorly skilled.
We've also been told skim coating at this point will likely only make the situation worse, esp. if the cause is not attributed to seam finish quality.

My understanding of a level 5 finish ..._" ... drywall that has been taped, first and second coated, and sanded lightly to remove tool marks before applying a thin skim coat to the entire surface including the seams and field. ..."_​... which is the process we used..._"... The skim coat is sanded lightly and checked with a halogen light to look for any imperfections. ..."_​... we knife spread a very light coat, we did not use the roll skim method (which I'll acknowledge may be our mistake)..._" ...The surface is coated with a high quality high solids drywall primer before painting...."
_​..we don't know what the painter used.

Given that the majority of the seams are actually flush and the discoloring is not due to ridge or hump shadowing, is it a reasonable possibility that the primer used was not the correct product, or not correctly applied? And if it was, shouldn't it have evened out the coloring?

Or that at this point, the discoloring would even out with a primer product specific for that purpose? Perhaps 1-2+ coats of proper quality primer prior to topcoat?


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Out of my league!


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## kodie (Aug 2, 2017)

MrWillys said:


> Out of my league!


  lol, we much appreciate your feedback, thank you


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Level 5 won't fix this but maybe try trowel these joints out wider atleast 12 inch each side from the middle to try and hide the hump look you know like blend it out 


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Take a photo with the trowel or a straight edge over the joint 


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Would bet dollars to donuts that those joints aren't flat. The fact you have shiny paint is making it 10x worse though.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Aussiecontractor said:


> Level 5 won't fix this but maybe try trowel these joints out wider atleast 12 inch each side from the middle to try and hide the hump look you know like blend it out
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Level 5 will fix the problems just if you fallow the steps you mentioned ..... the big problem there is the paint maybe for this is better to skim the entire wall


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Yeah true it will work if you trowel out the joints out nicely first then skim the wall....but if you were just to skim the whole wall as is it would it would look the same 


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## endo_alley_revisited (Aug 9, 2016)

Put a straight edge on those standups. Such as a plastering rod. They are obviously crowned. I don't see any bubbling. You have to get the joints dead-nutz flat to hide them. Smooth is one thing. Anybody with a sanding pole can do smooth. Perfectly flat and smooth. That is a much bigger deal. No fancy smanzy primer paint or roll on skim coat will flatten a crowned or sunken joint. At this point. sand out any humped mud if you still can. Then fill in on either side with a plastering rod ( er, feather edge in some parlance) or slicker. When the straight edge says the jointa are are flat , they are flat. But not until. http://www.bontool.com/product1.asp?P=FEATHEREDGE


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## kodie (Aug 2, 2017)

We were able to get back today with proper lighting/tools, get the windows blackened -- _Yes, it was then clear to see the majority of the seams on the soundboard walls are_ *uneven/not flush/not perfectly flat*.

Consensus from the majority we've reached out to is L5 is the only thing that is going to come close to resolving their problem. Probably the entire wall, skim coat or Tuff-Hide. That, and trying to convince them to choose a different paint.

Although initially we thought evening out the hump was the likely solution, we've heard some voice concern that going from the high point out 12" in. either side is no guarantee, and could make the problem bigger.

Either way, it is out of our league. We never purported to be L5 (and _never would inflate_ our skills) finishers, or frankly, any level, because they never asked or requested a specific level.


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

If they don't ask...level 4 is the standard...you should be able to level 4 those stand ups with minimal to none of those joints showing in the light level 5 is normally used here For high end work only 


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## Cletus (Jan 15, 2017)

Just looking at the work before painted tells me you would have problems with extreme side light...no amount of lvl 5 will fix that. Level 5 is only there to make sure the surface texture is all the same! Then i would use a sealer to make sure top coat color stays true. With that being said, it is hard for even "pros" to hide stand ups under certain lighting conditions. Mud is put on in arches that need to be feathered out...to create the illusion of flat! When natural light comes in at a 1-10 degree angle..extra work will need to be done to make the surface is exceptable, not perfect!


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## Pattycakez_tapez (Aug 7, 2017)

over filled. Grab you largest trowel, 16", and check for the bounce. take your time and level each joint accordingly, as if they are 9 foot butt joints. Stupid extra work but finish with a level 5 and your gc will love you.. But those are now butts brother.. good luck


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## OtherbrotherMoore (May 25, 2017)

MrWillys said:


> Were you contracted to level 4? If so, it is not your fault. One could argue you should have told them about level 5 at areas that receive natural lighting? See the last of page 3 and the beginning of page 4 here:
> 
> http://www.lafarge-na.com/GA-214-10e.pdf
> 
> I would add that my guys would thin topping compound and roll it on with a paint roller and wipe it down and then sand. I've never tried the other product I posted and don't know if it can be sanded.


Throw a quart of mud to primer blow on with high end sprayer. Shot my house down this way. No flash


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

OtherbrotherMoore said:


> Throw a quart of mud to primer blow on with high end sprayer. Shot my house down this way. No flash


25 posts in and the only guy who understands what I posted is the other union guy. Speaks volumes for actual training now doesn't it? I learned about joint photographing 35 years ago. Thanks Joe, I was losing faith in the craft!


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> 25 posts in and the only guy who understands what I posted is the other union guy. Speaks volumes for actual training now doesn't it? I learned about joint photographing 35 years ago. Thanks Joe, I was losing faith in the craft!


I think you don't understand the difference between joint photographing and pure craftsmanship... which of the 2 pics looks right for you?


PS.I personally don't need to do level 5 on that wall


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism


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## Cletus (Jan 15, 2017)

:whistling2:


MrWillys said:


> Out of my league!


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## Cletus (Jan 15, 2017)

kodie said:


> We were able to get back today with proper lighting/tools, get the windows blackened -- _Yes, it was then clear to see the majority of the seams on the soundboard walls are_ *uneven/not flush/not perfectly flat*.
> 
> Consensus from the majority we've reached out to is L5 is the only thing that is going to come close to resolving their problem. Probably the entire wall, skim coat or Tuff-Hide. That, and trying to convince them to choose a different paint.
> 
> ...


A level5 finish is not to "fix a humped joint". Its purpose is the make the surface paint all the same! If your joint is over filled or crown..the only solution is to float it out wide! I personally would go 20" across..making sure you pass down the middle of joint, then feather the sides, skim with a 12". That would *not* make the problem bigger...only better! After that i would brush it down with sand pole, or dustless sander! Then do a tight on-off skim of the entire wall...now that would make it a level 5!, and your humps would be fixed! The only problem you would have is bubbles or fish eyes because its a painted surface...you should be able to fill in with your skim coat and lvl5 coat. Try rough sanding paint with 80 grit to break the surface..so that will not be a big problem...good luck, and in the future when you see a window that is that close to the wall..you will know..extra work will need to be done


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## Mudslinger (Mar 16, 2008)

MrWillys said:


> 25 posts in and the only guy who understands what I posted is the other union guy. Speaks volumes for actual training now doesn't it? I learned about joint photographing 35 years ago. Thanks Joe, I was losing faith in the craft!


The problem with this wall is training, the joints were finished poorly. Check out post #46 same wall different site, shows how bad the joints were. http://www.contractortalk.com/f49/help-why-seams-bubbled-3-weeks-after-finish-353570/index3/ Level 5 only works if your base is done correctly.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism


I don't suffer from narcissism or other similar diseases ... that's my work and how I expect to be done...is my experience as a finisher... what's your experience? are you in the position to give others advice as a finisher or you just talk because you're one of those people who know it all but actually doesn't know anything and doesn't even wanna learn?

if I was in your place after the link Mudslinger posted.......i'd ...........


THANK GOD YOU ARE RETIRED!


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## Cletus (Jan 15, 2017)

Mudslinger said:


> The problem with this wall is training, the joints were finished poorly. Check out post #46 same wall different site, shows how bad the joints were. http://www.contractortalk.com/f49/help-why-seams-bubbled-3-weeks-after-finish-353570/index3/ Level 5 only works if your base is done correctly.


...so true slinger! We have to stop the misinformation of level 5. It has nothing to do with the a proper finished level 4. Level 5 will not fix a poorly finished level 4. Every step has to be done correctly...at level 4 you should have the appearance of flat...under whatever the lighting conditions are. Now, level 5 your skimming out the entire wall, on-off wiped tight. The process has no leveling capability, and blurs the line of what a painters responsibility "is" and finishers. The fact is, a good primer sealer will level 5 a wall...because it has the proper material in it to do so! New drywall needs to be sealed...a lot of the mumbojumbo over level 5 would be solved with the proper type of primer-sealer!


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

That's true and With a bit of planing and good finishing skills you don't need really need level 5 either 



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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Level 5 elevator shaft in a home 











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## Mudslinger (Mar 16, 2008)

Cletus said:


> ...so true slinger! We have to stop the misinformation of level 5. It has nothing to do with the a proper finished level 4. Level 5 will not fix a poorly finished level 4. Every step has to be done correctly...at level 4 you should have the appearance of flat...under whatever the lighting conditions are. Now, level 5 your skimming out the entire wall, on-off wiped tight. The process has no leveling capability, and blurs the line of what a painters responsibility "is" and finishers. The fact is, a good primer sealer will level 5 a wall...because it has the proper material in it to do so! New drywall needs to be sealed...a lot of the mumbojumbo over level 5 would be solved with the proper type of primer-sealer!


I definitely agree with you.:thumbsup:


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## Cletus (Jan 15, 2017)

My Drywall wish list!

1. Have a GC understand that drywall needs to dry!
2. Have a painter that know what material to use on new drywall!
3. Have manufactures care about the bevel on drywall
4. Have competition that understand .80cents sqft is not a acceptable bid price
5. Have help understand..i'm not paying them to look at FB all day
6. Have Kate Upton take off her...wait that's a different list


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## Mudslinger (Mar 16, 2008)

Cletus said:


> My Drywall wish list!
> 
> 1. Have a GC understand that drywall needs to dry!
> 2. Have a painter that know what material to use on new drywall!
> ...


A guys gotta have dreams to get him through the day! I was just dealing with 3 on your list today. My 14" box took care of most of them, but you start to feel it on a 521 sheet house.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Mudslinger said:


> A guys gotta have dreams to get him through the day! I was just dealing with 3 on your list today. My 14" box took care of most of them, but you start to feel it on a 521 sheet house.


if you didn't deal with no4 and 5 still a happy day


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## Mudslinger (Mar 16, 2008)

keke said:


> if you didn't deal with no4 and 5 still a happy day


Isn't that the truth!


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Mudslinger said:


> Isn't that the truth!


I worked 7 days this week and long hrs next 1 will be the same but I'm very happy because I don't deal with no 4 and 5


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## endo_alley_revisited (Aug 9, 2016)

kodie said:


> Thank you for all your feedback.
> 
> 
> FYI - GC did not ask for Level 5. Other than wanting it to be ready for the painter, he did not indicate any specific level.
> ...


I hope there is no more finger pointing. That doesn't fix anything or help anybody improve their finishing skills. But in the last (painted) photograph of the wall on the opening page there is an obvious shadow on the far side of each joint. And they appeared brighter on the sunny, window side of the joints. This would signal to me that the joints were not flat. No matter what level of finish we do, (3,4,5) we concentrate on and go to great lengths on getting the joints and corner bead as flat as possible. Once this is accomplished, the difference between level 3,4,5 is in eliminating smaller scale imperfections and eliminating difference in smoothness and texture of sanded mud work vs checkering in drywall face paper. I really dislike these architect definitions of level 5. You can do just what the architect stipulates and still not get a wall that is straight flat and monolithic in appearance. The art of fine dry walling is in getting the wall straight and flat. And no paragraph in an architect's handbook will teach you that. Good luck.


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## OtherbrotherMoore (May 25, 2017)

Not a good job nope. No cut downs we have to learn


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Cletus said:


> My Drywall wish list!
> 
> 1. Have a GC understand that drywall needs to dry!
> 2. Have a painter that know what material to use on new drywall!
> ...


I just found out the second wish is the hardest   :furious:


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