# Need Pro Opinion--Level 5 and what's expected



## HeatherJ (Jan 14, 2011)

Hello All,
I first must apologize for not being in the drywall industry but after searching on the internet, I came across this site and I needed/want some honest opinions from professionals in the trade and not the blowhard builder we've been working with. Please, any help or info you can provide would be so welcome at this point.

Info: 
-We recently built a new, contemporary home; finished in August
-Drywall sub did a very sub par job and the builder has since said he will not be hiring him again (thanks for trying him out on our home!)
-I paint professionally part-time, mostly residential repaints, sometimes full homes, but usually nota fter a new build-->I painted our home to save a lot of money on hiring a painter
-one month after moving in, a ceiling crack started and then a second one parallel to it occured (botf of these are about 15 feet long). There are many, many cracks at the wall/ceiling joint, imperfections in walls, and too many nail pops to count.
-We requested a level 5 finish since our home again, is contemporary, flat roof and all and the whole south side of our home is windows. Flat ceilings, flat white paint...etc.
-I requested level 5 because when we met with the architect and builder, I said I wanted the walls as smooth as possible and they said, "that's level 5"--in my naivity, I have read now that the ceilings should have been skim-coated.

Now, I understand settling after a build, especially at areas where there is the most movement, above a window, near a door--I patch a lot of these when I'm painting for customers, but how much is too much to expect? A month after moving in a ceiling crack? Our dimwit builder is trying to tell us that the span of the ceiling is just too large and that we should perhaps put in control joints across the middle of the ceiling. And then he suggested putting a whole nother drywall ceiling below with so the movement of the ceiling on the original ceiling would crack, but the lower ceiling could move independently?????....

Again, I apologize for being a homeowner and invading this board, but I'm really in need of some honest advice. I'm just not sure who to trust. We are meeting with our builder tomorrow afternoon and I want to come prepared with some info so he again, doesn't make us seem like idiots, when honestly, if I had an hour to write on what we've had to deal with, with him.......

What I'm wondering is, if we requested a level 5 finish, what should that have been, by industry standards? Could our ceiling cracks be from just plain faulty drywall techniques or could it be more of as he said, too large a span, or could is even be faulty framing of the ceiling?

I feel very stupid for not knowing ahead of time what the finish should have been but when I was told they're ready for me to paint, I got in there and did. There wasn't any skim coating, the walls weren't wiped down, I primed and then painted. I'm pretty sure the drywall guy should have come back between paint and primer to patch stuff, but I trusted the people there and didn't want to question anything.......I'm so mad at myself.

Again, I'm sorry for invading the forum.
Thank-you for any help you can provide!
Heather


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

it's the builders responsibility to ensure you have walls that are finished to an acceptable standard. it could be either the builders or the finishers fault but in the end the builder is the one who is responsible for the finished product. sorry to hear about your walls


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## HeatherJ (Jan 14, 2011)

Thanks Carpentaper--it's really tough. I hate knowing the amount of mess that is ahead of us. I just hope we have something to stand on as far as making him fix everything. I'm afraid he'll bring in another subpar drywaller and now, my husband refuses to have me paint again and says it should be the builder's responsibility since we shouldn't have to be repainting so much. And how do we know the cracks, especially the ceiling ones, won't return? 

This is our dream house and our last one. We found the perfect lot and designed the perfect house and it's just been so frustrating!! I would have thought the builder would have been thankful for work last year, but we never seemed like much of a priority and I don't know how hard we can push to have it look the way we expected.

Thanks for responding! Gonna be a late night!


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

My condolences.
First ask yourself if you cooked the [email protected] out of the house as soon as you moved in...if you didn't then read on :whistling2:
Level 5 won't prevent cracking, if the builder is supplying the sub trades then he is the principle contractor and must see that it's put right but not at your expense....Including your labour charge for repainting, for starters get him to check that the joins were taped and that the insulation has been installed properly.
Here in NZ once the ceiling spans a given distance then the joins should be back blocked with drywall and cornice adhesive, my personal preference is the use of metal ceiling batons fixed on brackets so as to help with expansion.
Keep in mind I'm speaking from outside the USA so some things may be handled differently.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

here http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/screw-pops-1635/
http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/level-5-primer-surfacer-cgc-1535/
http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/curing-drying-time-1331/


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## HeatherJ (Jan 14, 2011)

Thanks Kiwi--house definitely wasn't 'cooked' once we got in. We didn't get to move in till August 1st and the drywall had been hung since first week of July. 

I understand the level 5 won't prevent cracks....sorry, I didn't say that in my first post.....there are so many imperfections, screw/nail pops and poorly sandings, not to mention seams that seem to be appearing, that once i started researching, I'm finding info about skim coating, and lighting and all the 'extra' care that should have been done. There is an incredible about of light from our floor to ceiling windows in the home and being a contemporary home, the walls are exposed in every sense and must look perfect--something the builder even said at one point.

The two long cracks are very frustrating and I'm wondering now, after reading on the boards, if it isn't a roof truss issue. It's hard to know, because the trusses that were used for our job were TJI's since it's a flat roof.

Thank you so much for your kindness in replying. I'm going to check on the links that my friendly Canuck gave me.

Thank you again!


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

ooowww I'm friendly ,hear that guys
here is a link on truss lift http://www.buyerschoiceinspections.com/truss-uplift 
here is how to fix it if the problem if it is truss lift (maybe) http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.maxxon.com/drawings/TEST7.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.maxxon.com/gyp-crete/drawings&h=574&w=645&sz=35&tbnid=7XpwkoWcrqS30M:&tbnh=122&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dresilient%2Bchannel&zoom=1&q=resilient+channel&hl=en&usg=__R52_6ZaDwpC5U6HV6i8Vx6gpgkI=&sa=X&ei=cJYvTcSXEsL48Abay7XXCA&ved=0CDIQ9QEwBA 
it's a way to suspend the ceiling down a 1/2 inch,then re-drywall,which is $$$$$$$$ sorry
notice how the kiwi's and canucks come to the rescue:whistling2:


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## HeatherJ (Jan 14, 2011)

Thanks again 2buck! I've printed off the articles that you've sent me to. That 'floating' ceiling seems an interesting thought. A lot of info spinning around in my head.

The article about truss lift explains it better than I had read before. Makes sense, but our home has a flat roof and the trusses are actually TJI's which span from the middle of the house (secured to a metal beam) out to West and East side of the house. I wonder if truss lift could still occur.

Oh my, I must hit the hay! Thanks again to the Canadiens! My American pros most likely are sleeping 

Thank you!


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Hi HeatherJ

Shame about your house, But this is easy for this to happen believe it or not.

Firstly, Was the builder/Subs screwed down on the price so he didnt have enough time or care to get the framing and bracing right???

Was The framing left long enough too dry out before lining??? If it wasnt then thats you answer, You could have had the best drywall job going and drying timber will trash it.

Were you in a mad hurry pushing the builder and subs to get this place finished so you could move in asap??? Clients are there own worst enemy sometimes as all of us on DWT knows too well.

Were metal ceiling battens used as Kiwiman said, If its fixed direct to timber thats not dry enough this will crack ceilings, (I have fixed many)

Was Glue placed behind the screws, This will pop them.

Do you have underfloor heating?? This will Cook out and ruin a house.

Did this damage occur during seasonal change, IE cold winter to hot summer, This will do it as well??

You said one whole side of you house is windows, Is it designed to capture maxumium sun for natural heating, Is the floor tiles so it absorbs heat and warms up the concrete floor, and is this house heavly insulated?? Remember that term Cooking?? Well this design can cook out a house and force the framing to dry more which will crack and pop the walls.
Over heating a house can even shrink the mud, which can peak the joins, pop, crack etc.

Level 5 finish means covering all the wall board so the texture is the same product to eliminate flashing of different textures, It has nothing to do with ceiling cracks or nail pops, That is structrial movement placing strees on the wallboard.

I do not know you and im not judging you but if you have screwed everyone down to work for bottom dollor and didnt listen and pushed this project hard and fast then that is a perfect set up for this to occur and if your now coming on DWT looking to point the blame on everyone around you then dont expect much support.

These clients are out there and we all know it?? My question to you is, are you one?????????? Now be honest please!!!


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

Hey Cazna if you take a job shouldn't you always give quality. If you cannot give quality for the price you should respectfully decline.


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## cdwoodcox (Jan 3, 2011)

HeatherJ said:


> Hello All,
> Info:
> -
> What I'm wondering is, if we requested a level 5 finish, what should that have been, by industry standards? Could our ceiling cracks be from just plain faulty drywall techniques or could it be more of as he said, too large a span, or could is even be faulty framing of the ceiling?
> ...


 Level 5 is skim coat over entire surface.
You're ceiling cracks could be any one of these.
That being said it was up to your builder to address all of these issues during the building process not once job is complete.
My advice to you is not rush into any quick fixes the builder proposes. You need to search your area and find a reputable drywall contractor. Pay him a small fee have him come examine your house. 
I had a homeowner call me last Feb. with the same problems your having now. Upon examining the job it came down to just poor workmanship by drywaller. Builder was blaming everything from board manufacturer to faulty finishing materials. Once I met with homeowners and they went to builder knowledgeable about what was going on he finally took responsibility and paid us to come fix it properly. We cannot diagnose your house over these boards just speculate.
Hope this is helpful.


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## Bill from Indy (Apr 26, 2010)

Heather,

There are too many variables in question to give a straight answer to your question/questions.

But, your asking on the L5 is like the others have stated. L5 is used to make the surface one consistency. You have different textures of finish in drywall. the texture of the board, texture of sanded mud/board and texture of the mud. When primed, in hi light areas, you get what is called flashing. L5 is meant to make the 3 surfaces go away and just have one... sanded mud. This helps in achieving the smooth look you are after...BUT....L5 is only as good as what is underneath..if the finish (L4) is not up to par and you cover it up, you aren't doing anything really...if you have humped joints/screws and L5 over it, then you still have humps....

Like others are saying also, L5 does not control the cracking/popping issues you are having and without seeing it first hand, I couldn't tell you exactly the cause. The joists could be uplifting...the span may be too drastic from beam to outside wall (load) and your span between could be too long..(24o.c./16o.c.)...We don't know what rock was used..what tgi's were spec'd and used...this is kinda where i'm going if you understand....tgi's are better at carrying a load on span, but they still have deflection...if your joints are cracking (flats) that are perpendicular to the tgi's, more than likely, it is deflection and the improper tgi's were used for the span..same can be said for butt joint cracks also.

The house hasn't been "seasoned" yet in that time frame your stating for it to be a temp issue..by this, i mean that when you get a snow load, you contract...summertime it expands and this is what usually causes your ceiling to wall angles to crack. Uplift is part of this, but not completely. 

I am sorry to hear about your problem and understand your frustration. Like the others have said, it should be the responsibility of the contractor you hired. The drywall contractor is probably crying foul for you painting it and saying "you painted it, you bought it" type of deal..not to throw stones, but if it were me and I was doing this job and knew you, a homeowner, was doing the finish...I would require me priming the job in my bid/contract. I am not saying you aren't a painter and don't know what you are doing, but most homeowners do not know how to prime raw drywall the way it should be done. This almost eliminates any question of the drywall finish BEFORE you paint. You can see any imperfections that need to be addressed before nay finish is applied (paint)

I hope you get a resolution to your problems...again, sorry to hear and good luck


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## HeatherJ (Jan 14, 2011)

THANK-YOU!
I know I come to these boards a novice and at my own risk and I really do appreciate you guys coming to me with so much info. I'll respond with a bit more, but I DO understand that you can only give so much info without being here and without having all the parameters. I just really needed some knowledge base to stand on when meeting with the contractor today so he doesn't railroad us.

Info:
Framing--I don't think the framing had adequate time to dry before drywall, but I would say, not much more than normal. I expected this somewhat, but here in Minnesota, we had snow till mid March and then it was just cooler temps AND our South facing sliding windows( 8ft. high, two expanses, of 12 ft and 16 ft) did not arrive till last week of May (screw up by contractor). 

Battens--none between TJI's and drywall
Glue--No glue that I ever saw applied to screws or before screws ( hadn't heard of this until last night!)
Infloor heat--yes, we have that on both levels since we have concrete floors. **First cracks started in Mid-September, prior to us turning on heat. 
Insulation/humidity--this is a high efficiency home--spray foam walls and ceiling so it's fairly tight and I do notice that on the thermostat our humidity is quite low (which I did wonder if that could be an issue of _some of the cracking in certain areas_) It hovers between 20-25%. This is something that I think should be addressed.
Price--we definitely did not beat him down on price. He assured us we had to go with higher priced subs because he had worked with them before and he trusted them-->the drywall guy was a high school friend and he hadn't work with him before, we have since found out.

Our home is 2355 sq. ft, 8 foot ceilings main level, 8'7" lower level, no crazy corners, everything square cornered. We saw one bid he did not use that stated $17,000, so I'm guessing our drywaller was below that. 

Painting-->I did paint the home and as I said, part of my career is as being a painter. Not a big time painter at all; I work by myself and do residential repaints all the time and have for 15 years. I've worked in several homes where I did the whole main level on my own, drywall to two coat finish, so I do know how to apply primer and what a dryall _should_ look like. I have complained about the quality of the drywall sinced the beginning and not knowing enough to stand on about the Level 5. I understand it doesn't stop the cracks, that is a separate issue--sorry, I should have worded my inquiry into two questions--cracks and what level 5 is  

We were very patient homeowners--yes, were we in a hurry to get in. Yes, but we never set a time limit--the only thing we said was, we want everything done before we're in, meaning, we didn't want workers coming and going a lot (some is expected) once we're in.

We rented an apartment till May 1 and had to know by March 1 if we wanted to go monthly. We asked the GC then, do you think we should extend a month....he said, no we'll definitely be done.......then April 29th came--"we need two more weeks"---two weeks came, he became wishy washy about dates.....all the apartments in the building were gone, luckily we had friends to go stay with. He said, two more weeks.......two months later we were pushing. He started saying July 7th we could move in-->we didn't have water hooked up yet. He wanted us to move in the next week-->we didn't have air yet. Last week of July he wanted us to move in-->plumbing wasn't complete and washer/dryer wasn't working and materials were still all over house...........

Long, long story short-->we hired a dumbass. We know it now. There wasn't a process to his building and he wasn't on site much--we chose the wrong guy. I just want to make sure that he is NOW held accountable to errors and fixes them.

Did I mention we have a sewer smell problem off and on and we finally got the original plumber out and we have a back pitch issue?? Yeah, we'll find out more on that today. I've got 1/2 dozen major issues where he errored, so honestly, HONESTLY we're not the crappy homeowners that I know you've all dealt with (and I as well) before.

Thank-you, thank-you for giving me some insight and information. I wish I could steal one of you and have you walk through the house.

I'll check back later
Heather


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## HeatherJ (Jan 14, 2011)

P.S. Not sure if it matters or not in the "cooking" discussion, we do have an ERV/HRV, which is a air exchange unit that brings in air from outside and exchanges it with the air inside.....


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

Heather,

The problem is your drywaller probably didn't put enough coats. Level 5 means the drywall is tape, and coated 3 times. After it gets an additional 4th coat, where the entire drywall is muded. This needed to be done with walls/ceilings. Alot of times, hackmen drywallers will think, oh 2 coats is fine in a ceiling. ITs a ceiling. Where the walls and ceilings all white before your primed them? If the finish is unacceptable, you need to let the builder now that. The drywaller and builder should give you a 1 year warranty from the turn-around date, when he handled you the keys. If there are seems and bad stuff showing, agree with the GC you and him will walk it, pull out the "stick of shame" which is a pencil hooked up to a piece of wood, and mark up the place. Make the drywaller go back and fix his errors. You asked for a Level 5 finish, this means the walls should be free of any imperfections, screws popped, joints with humps in them. Pull out a 6ft level, place it on the walls and make sure they are dead flat, no more than 1/8" of a gap. Check cornerbeads! If they are all wrong, make them fix it. Or pay me $250 hr at the GC's expense, and we will fly up there! Cracks within 1 year are the Builder/Drywallers fault. Hope you held a 10% retention from the builder and didn't pay him in full until its done. Good luck!

And yes, we are going to help you so the hackman drywaller loses for stepping in on our drywall business when he probably doesn't now anything.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

Heather-

Work is slow here right now....you want me to come fix it?

It WON'T be cheap though:no:

Sorry to hear that things haven't been working out for you...


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## suncoast drywaller (Sep 4, 2009)

It may be in your best interests to try to get an inspection done by someone from the Association of the wall and ceiling industry . AWCI . As kiwi says we backblock our joins here in Australia as well , but I do not think its done in US this helps stop ceiling cracks .


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

suncoast drywaller said:


> It may be in your best interests to try to get an inspection done by someone from the Association of the wall and ceiling industry . AWCI . As kiwi says we backblock our joins here in Australia as well , but I do not think its done in US this helps stop ceiling cracks .


off topic butt.....
think your slang/terms are different,are you just saying you don't land your butts on the trusses,you run them past them,and then you put a floater/backer/wood/steal/behind the butts to tie /screw them in.if not plz explain


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## suncoast drywaller (Sep 4, 2009)

2buckcanuck said:


> off topic butt.....
> think your slang/terms are different,are you just saying you don't land your butts on the trusses,you run them past them,and then you put a floater/backer/wood/steal/behind the butts to tie /screw them in.if not plz explain


Hi 2buck . For butt joins I join in the middle of frameing I then glue a peice of board on the back of the ceiling ,next I screw three peices of metal batten under the join one in centre the other ones on sides I then put some clouts or nails beetween battens and ceiling face thus creating a recess .When the glue/mud has set the battens are removed.We are also required to backblock all ceiling joins where there is more than two joins ,that is glueing a peice of board over all recess joins beetween frameing . Mostly we fix metal battens to our trusses over here .Paper tape all ceiling joins .


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

I've attached a couple of pages out of our site guide explaining back blocking, don't know if it will be readable or not but what it says is on a ceiling span with 3 or more tapered joins you must glue a 200mm (8") wide offcut of drywall to the back of the join with cornice adhesive, if the sheets are fixed to metal ceiling batons rather than timber then spans with 6 or more joins need be back blocked, Sheet end joints should be placed between fixings and be back blocked with a 400mm wide peice of drywall and shimmed from the front to create a recess for taping. Construction adhesive should not be used for back blocking because it is too flexible.


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

Kiwi---here in the USA we use "ROCKSPLICERS' does the same thing.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

DSJOHN said:


> Kiwi---here in the USA we use "ROCKSPLICERS' does the same thing.


yes ,sounds like way too much work/overkill,maybe you can send them one so they can show their building inspectors.let are anzac buddies earn more money then:yes:


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

:thumbsup:


2buckcanuck said:


> yes ,sounds like way too much work/overkill,maybe you can send them one so they can show their building inspectors.let are anzac buddies earn more money then:yes:


Did seem kinda complicated?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

cazna said:


> Hi HeatherJ
> 
> Shame about your house, But this is easy for this to happen believe it or not.
> 
> ...


canza hits it on the head. wallboard could of had high content of moister also.


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## uwing (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow! You guys are cool, this thread would have been chewed to pieces if not closed at PT :notworthy: you good gents.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Kiwiman said:


> I've attached a couple of pages out of our site guide explaining back blocking, don't know if it will be readable or not but what it says is on a ceiling span with 3 or more tapered joins you must glue a 200mm (8") wide offcut of drywall to the back of the join with cornice adhesive, if the sheets are fixed to metal ceiling batons rather than timber then spans with 6 or more joins need be back blocked, Sheet end joints should be placed between fixings and be back blocked with a 400mm wide peice of drywall and shimmed from the front to create a recess for taping. Construction adhesive should not be used for back blocking because it is too flexible.


i do see the point. but if i show my hangers this, they will LOL there aS#es off. and go back to work.


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## CE Drywall (Sep 6, 2010)

Heather, rather than take our word for it, spend a small amount (relatively speaking) and hire a contractor independent of your builder. You can call you local Home Builders Association to get recommendations. Another thought might be the buildig inspector from your township or city. Either of these people could look at the trusses, and see the walls. We can speculate, but without seeing the job, we can't be precise. Your builder can deny or dismiss anything you pass along from us, but with a contractor/inspector there, he can't hide the issue.

Really you are looking at a big cost to fix there issue. If you want the builder to cover the cost, spend the money to get another opinion. If this thing goes to court, your house will be put against industry standards. You need a professional on site to tell you if your hows has excessive issues.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

uwing said:


> Wow! You guys are cool, this thread would have been chewed to pieces if not closed at PT :notworthy: you good gents.


your bang on the money with that comment,their wolf pack tag teaming hounds would of had a feast on her.I have always found it easy to approach another rocker/taper on any job or supply store.We don't seem to have our noses out of joint.mind you there's a few whiny tapers,but they should be painters:whistling2:
but if she came on here and went,how do i mix my hotmud blah blah blah........well,another story
see all the stuff your learning about us painter uwing:yes:


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## muddermankc (Apr 6, 2009)

Heather, hows the trim look? any crown cracking or pulling at caulk lines,doors etc, just curious


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

muddermankc said:


> Heather, hows the trim look? any crown cracking or pulling at caulk lines,doors etc, just curious


 
Good point mudder, This is a clear sign of to much heat to fast and framing/board etc not dry enough before lining :thumbsup:

We see that here as well, underfloor heating is murder to homes sometimes.

Now houses are built, Highly insulated, double glazed, big windows to capture the suns heat, underfloor heating, then they add a home vent system to drag all the moisture out, Any wonder things pop and crack.

Steel framing seems to be the way to go, Far more stable and then hang the board and give the plaster time and this has to be a better way??


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## smisner50s (Jan 6, 2011)

HeatherJ said:


> Hello All,
> I first must apologize for not being in the drywall industry but after searching on the internet, I came across this site and I needed/want some honest opinions from professionals in the trade and not the blowhard builder we've been working with. Please, any help or info you can provide would be so welcome at this point.
> 
> Info:
> ...


Has any one brought up the topic of the footer and foundation wall...did you build somewhere that required fill to be brought in and the home is now setting on less than suitable ground that is still gonna be settling..settlement doesent happen over night it takes severial seasonable changies.rain .sun.rain.sun.snow ect.there is a builder my way who installs modular home..when there in ill go and hang and finish where they come togather at...the manufactuiar says nothing more than primer for the first year...because that place is gonna settle and cracks will happen.and if you did the painting you should of caught the touch up areas after you primed...and brought it to someones attion..and not to be rude but I have never heard of a professional partime anything..if your a pro than your fulltime..if not your just someone who paints.it pays you to pay the pro to do what they now...once again not being rude..just hitten you with the truth


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## Workaholic (Dec 13, 2010)

> There wasn't any skim coating, the walls weren't wiped down, I primed and then painted.


These other guys are more experienced in this area of trouble shooting but I think what this thread really needs is some pictures. There are a lot of variables that would effect the finish of the rock but it sounds like you did not receive a level 5 finish but without some pics it can go on and on without knowing what you got on your hands. 

A yr warrant is standard and the builder needs to address this and a wise thing for you to do would be to have all your pictures documented, keep all emails in a folder so it can be easily recalled, get a local drywall guy with a good reputation out and have him go over what is provided by his company on a level 5. Contact your lawyer.


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## Workaholic (Dec 13, 2010)

Yep variables from the foundation, framing, temp, ect, ect...


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## Kiwiman (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm not sure if we can get those rock splicers here, they look like an excellent idea. I think everyones hands are tied here, if Winstones recommends back blocking then thats whats got to be done. 
Hope I didn't leave anyone out with the post thanking, I hadn't done any until now....ungrateful sod that I am.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> These other guys are more experienced in this area of trouble shooting but I think what this thread really needs is some pictures.


I agree. That was what I was thinking while reading this thread.


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