# FYI / High shoulders / cupping



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

I've been informed by National Gypsum, my recent bout with what DWTers are calling "high shoulders" is really referred to as "cupping" among DW manfacturers. IME all instances of what we're referring to as high is a direct result of the back side of the taper actually being recessed itself. This happens after the sheet comes off the line and unequal paper tension distorts the recess of the board. The Rep said there are a few things that can cause this problem. 

A high shoulder to the manfacturer is a different problem all together. In my area we say the edge is mushroomed, if you know what I mean??:blink:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Cupping?!
Could they make it sound any gayer?
Hmm...interesting though...
Whatever it's called and whatever causes it should stop. Period.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Pro roc 12x54


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

moore said:


> Pro roc 12x54


You got it moore. It's caused by paper tension during drying, different types of face/ back paper drying at different rates.


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> You got it moore. It's caused by paper tension during drying, different types of face/ back paper drying at different rates.


Hmm...that's an interesting find..
I didn't realize that the back side is out too..weird..
So what's the fix? How do they prevent it?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> You got it moore. It's caused by paper tension during drying, different types of face/ back paper drying at different rates.


 Which means there pushing out hot rock.. When I asked the rep last week ,,does the date on the board mean it was shipped on that date or it was made on that date...I got this ..:blink:..Yeah he knew the answer ..I saw it on his face....hell!! I knew that from the start...Harvey Randell said this 2 years ago..The board should be set aside when it comes off the press to cure..for months ,,not a day or so.


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

moore said:


> Which means there pushing out hot rock.. When I asked the rep last week ,,does the date on the board mean it was shipped on that date or it was made on that date...I got this ..:blink:..Yeah he knew the answer ..I saw it on his face....hell!! I knew that from the start...Harvey Randell said this 2 years ago..The board should be set aside when it comes off the press to cure..for months ,,not a day or so.


Makes sense! Hmm...so it's an easy fix...they just want to pump it out and ship it out.


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

The contractor bought his own rock on a house my hangers hung Friday. It came from Menards. Some of it was USG and most of it was GP Tough Rock. The USG had nice square edges. The GP is awful. The edges are rounded over almost like Smooth Wall rock where the edges are chamfered. These are just rounded and needed all prefilled. Looked terrible. Soft. Just plain old junky rock. The hangers didn't complain, but I will when the builder comes tomorrow. No wonder Menards has it. The regular supply houses would reject it.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

moore said:


> Pro roc 12x54


Excellent pics moore:thumbup:

and by the looks of your pics, maybe you should install your drywall backwards. Looks like the back side has a better recess, LOL:jester:


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

Yes those pics are real good! Makes me think it's some kind of scam to make us use more mud. :yes:  

Better get box makers working on a new design real quick ! Twenty-four inch box ?


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

mudslingr said:


> Yes those pics are real good! Makes me think it's some kind of scam to make us use more mud. :yes:
> 
> Better get box makers working on a new design real quick ! Twenty-four inch box ?


Hahaha! oh my goodness that would suck!
A 24" box would be so heavy!!...
I'd hate to see a 24" Fat-Boy! lol


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Excellent pics moore:thumbup:
> 
> and by the looks of your pics, maybe you should install your drywall backwards. Looks like the back side has a better recess, LOL:jester:


 Hmm..:whistling2:


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## welderthatpaints (Apr 8, 2011)

Heck I though was the only one, I cant tell you how many flats Ive Had to BUST not due to a high center on the joint, but simply bad ****rock..."cupping" what a croc

I agree with mudslingr its bad enough a box of mud is over 7$


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## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

We have a lot of that here in ont. I was doing a model home last week for brookfield homes it was all smooth ceilings and the factory edge of the ceiling board was all bubbled. I started cutting it out and the glue didn't bind to the paper. It was hollow underneath. I told my boss and he's like fix it and i'll "pay" you. I never got payed for it


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## Southbound_60 (May 23, 2012)

We are having that issue here in VA as well. It seem to be mainly with the 54" board though. And 99% of our 54" is tuff rock. I have to charge to fix that stuff, it's a lot off extra work to bust out flats like butts. I don't like working for free.


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## harvey randall (Nov 23, 2010)

*high shoulder*

high shoulder is code for: no we didnt bake the rock long enough and the whole flat bed was close to liquid when it went out. the reasoning behind studs drying in the wall, instead of being kiln dried. if its dry-its dry. drying time over. if its almost dry-it aint dry. -------------lays flat on a flat bed----pressure comes down---moves marerial to the out side--- hits the recess-that is dry because its thinner and pushes the gypsum-(GYP)-(gyp-meaning-cheat or scam)
towards the thinner and dryier recess and the high shoulder is formed. wheres the mystery. in every ones ferver to compete, first be complete. harve-THAT WHY ENDS CURL OUT,also- makes for bad but joints. and on and on and on and on. and every one in production says???????????????????????? we dont know????????????????????????????????????????????????








;


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## harvey randall (Nov 23, 2010)

*un equal paper tension*



P.A. ROCKER said:


> I've been informed by National Gypsum, my recent bout with what DWTers are calling "high shoulders" is really referred to as "cupping" among DW manfacturers. IME all instances of what we're referring to as high is a direct result of the back side of the taper actually being recessed itself. This happens after the sheet comes off the line and unequal paper tension distorts the recess of the board. The Rep said there are a few things that can cause this problem.
> 
> A high shoulder to the manfacturer is a different problem all together. In my area we say the edge is mushroomed, if you know what I mean??:blink:


 its still there fault- i bought rock at 28.00 a thousand- these guys arent roasting it long enough. its there product- screw the excuse. sorry about the metaphor


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## harvey randall (Nov 23, 2010)

*the fix*



PrecisionTaping said:


> Hmm...that's an interesting find..
> I didn't realize that the back side is out too..weird..
> So what's the fix? How do they prevent it?


 they fix it. period.


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## harvey randall (Nov 23, 2010)

no fast fix anymoore.


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## harvey randall (Nov 23, 2010)

*recess etc.*

30 years ago when lite weight first came out. i was talking to an OLD rep, usg. you know the guy 60, drove the van- gave out experimentel mud-t shirts knives blagh blah blah. i asked about the deep and wide recess's. he say- oh thats easy-3# less boxes per med-(MEDIUM) house. usg made the recess deeper and wider to eat the non shrink mud up. we at the top look down on you harve. i even do as i tell you. usg screwed their self with non shrink and battled back with deeper recess- then it didnt dry fairly ansduniformly and ya got what your given. and here we are. not in control, only a consumer, a costomer not a controller.


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Our latest....

https://picasaweb.google.com/108428...&authkey=Gv1sRgCJyCkaLL0uWBJA&feat=directlink


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

fr8train said:


> Our latest....
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/108428...&authkey=Gv1sRgCJyCkaLL0uWBJA&feat=directlink


Using a nail spotter ..... eh'


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

5.5" box


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

It's just wrong!! They have to know what there sending out! 

Crooks Is what they are.:yes:


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## msd (Apr 10, 2011)

what brand board fr8train national


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

msd said:


> what brand board fr8train national


Yup, National Gypsum grid marx


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## msd (Apr 10, 2011)

if thats 1 of bruces houses tell him to spend a little more and get usg lite weight


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

fr8train said:


> Yup, National Gypsum grid marx


 That's messed up ... N/G here is soft crumbly ..bad factory cuts on the butts...but the seams are always true. Good recess.

These plants need to get together ,and talk shop! Ya think??


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

moore said:


> That's messed up ... N/G here is soft crumbly ..bad factory cuts on the butts...but the seams are always true. Good recess.
> 
> These plants need to get together ,and talk shop! Ya think??


It's N/G lite thats been the issue here.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up..:yes:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

The n/g board the local /main supplys carry [here] is. like I said crumbly /bad cuts on the butts [loose paper] just SOFT! ,,but a good recess..

but the n/g the lowes carrys is a different board.
Clean cuts on the butts...solid board!! but they store the chit outside:blink: When I buy board from lowes ..I tell them I want the dry board ..not the wet stuff outside ! Then they get all pissy ..

Depends on what plant it comes from I quess!


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## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

DOn't worry the taper will fix it


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Hmm...that's an interesting find..
> I didn't realize that the back side is out too..weird..
> So what's the fix? How do they prevent it?


Your the taper are you not? You fix it!


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Just can't resist being an @$$ can you mudstar? Are your saying that you don't charge extra to fix something that shouldn't be there in the first place?


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## DLSdrywall (May 22, 2012)

fr8train said:


> Just can't resist being an @$$ can you mudstar? Are your saying that you don't charge extra to fix something that shouldn't be there in the first place?


no extra...no fix. I say listen for the amount of time i'm gonna fix up the crap drywall i could have taped 2 houses i have to be compensated some how...pay me by the hour to fix it..or giveme a increase in footage price. never ask for more they will say no. Be more political give them options people like options remember time is money!:yes:


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

fr8train said:


> Just can't resist being an @$$ can you mudstar? Are your saying that you don't charge extra to fix something that shouldn't be there in the first place?


I'm saying I don't complain about what it takes to do the job and know how to deal with this so called issues you all have on here If you all are reading the posts I do, I remember 2buck posted a solution for this some time ago your just not paying attention :yes: 

get back to work slackers

your all doing more posting then working.......................


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

Oh and besides that, the the cupping is from the method of storage and how there stacked along with environmental conditions.I could go into details but if your imagination is working right and your not consuming fluoride that's your drinking water you should be able to figure why this happens, that's is you have been working in the trade for long enough to know.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Mudstar said:


> Oh and besides that, the the cupping is from the method of storage and how there stacked along with environmental conditions.I could go into details but if your imagination is working right and your not consuming fluoride that's your drinking water you should be able to figure why this happens, that's is you have been working in the trade for long enough to know.


 
Maybe you should be an advisor for the manufacturers. Seems you'd be in disagreement with the production line and field reps. All the brands are stored in the same manner but don't all have the issue.
I own my own ground well for drinking water.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mudstar said:


> Oh and besides that, the the cupping is from the method of storage and how there stacked along with environmental conditions.I could go into details but if your imagination is working right and your not consuming fluoride that's your drinking water you should be able to figure why this happens, that's is you have been working in the trade for long enough to know.


 No It's not!


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## harvey randall (Nov 23, 2010)

*cupping*

what a joke-p.t. was right its just gay sounding. though may i say for the sake of levity-i think its a stanken wroughten crime. that the industry, has given a name to their inneptitude. why not fix the problem, instead of createing terms. this reminds me of the 70s-when cars started rusting threw, cause metal suppliers to the big three, werent useing enough coke in the refineing of the steel. buying inferior material will start out a big problem for board manufacturers- different drying rates for different thickness,s etc. recycled news paper for face paper instead of virgin paper etc. worn rollers in the plant plate, etc. worn bearings in the rollers, etc. not enough drying time- etc. they shouldnt have broke it when it was fixed. took years to get great rock and only 20 to come up with a gay term like cupping. fly on the wall at a board meeting. profits are up-screw the dry wall vermin. the top dosnt care about quaility or they wouldnt let this go on. we cant open a plant so at least we can B and moan on this site. although i thought it was pretty cool how the chinese rock got busted. so the lesson today class is--- you can produce crap rock, it just cant kill anyone. those are the parameters. this is the playing field-id like to point out one basic problem, if there is one, they dont care up the line. maybe someone will wake up. how much more are we willing to pay, as a voteing block. thanks harve


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Right on Harvey !:thumbsup:


http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/synthetic-gypsum-an-ecofriendl-126318


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Looks like it might be time for this thread to resurface.


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

A year and a half later we are still dealing with the same old stuff. Wouldn't you think they could fix the equipment so it wouldn't do this so we could move on? I guess this way they keep us on our toes fixing the junk they send to us.


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Yeah, it's kind of shocking to just be able to go into a job and box it out!


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

They just need to raise the price of the rock so they could make some money and fix the problem. :yes:


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## mld (Jul 2, 2012)

Then they need to make it lighter so they can make even more money and fix the problems even better.:whistling2:


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

Kinda like the chip companies? Lower the ounces per bag and raise the price. Kinda like toilet paper. Raise the price and make the roll smaller.


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## D A Drywall (May 4, 2013)

Thanks for bumping this Fr8. I see you guys have been dealing with this far longer than I have.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Tim0282 said:


> They just need to raise the price of the rock so they could make some money and fix the problem. :yes:


THEY ...Raise the price every year ...And the product gets worse every year. For me ..It just don't add up.


The l/w Board was made to cut transportation cost.


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## Tim0282 (Jan 8, 2008)

It adds up to them wanting to make more money not caring about the product they put out. Knowing we have to fix it to get our money. They already got theirs.


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## D.E.P.S. (Jan 30, 2014)

I am kinda late to this thread, but I am really glad that I ran across it. I hung some boards a couple weeks ago on a small job for my son. I had a 8 board lid in a bedroom, and 16 boards on the walls of the living room. It was the same "NG" stuff you guys are talking about. I was was hearing the board cracking as I was screwing it off along the edges. There was no visible damage, but it was scaring me a little. I had used my 6 foot level across the joists and studs _as usual_ before I sarted hanging so I know it wasn't the framing. *Well*....... I get a call from my son a couple days later and he's being a real jerk to me about how I messed up the hanging and that he has to bust out all the flats like butts joints. Next time he comes over, I am going to show him this thread!!!!


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)




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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

fr8train said:


> View attachment 9481
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like the Certainteed plant in west Virginia ain't changed much.

Is that where it come from?


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

Not a clue Moore. Any way to tell?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

fr8train said:


> Not a clue Moore. Any way to tell?


 The last two numbers after the date ..I think ? The last smoke blower told me how to tell what board came from where ...I forget!

We don't get the certainteed board from W/V since they opened the plant in North Carolina . [shorter distance cheaper shipping] The certainteed from N/C is the best regular board I've laid hands on.. It has a nice recess with good clean cuts on the factory butts ..Very solid /heavy board.


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## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

I don't know specifics, but this job had been stocked for a few weeks, they put the lids in upstairs so they could get the insulation blown, and the heat turned on........ Look at the date on the board, don't know if you can see it. 12/26/13. That board went from the factory, to the supplier, to the job site inside of 3 weeks or so. I'll look for a stocking sheet tomorrow!


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

USG Ultra light weight 54s


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

moore said:


> The last two numbers after the date ..I think ? The last smoke blower told me how to tell what board came from where ...I forget! We don't get the certainteed board from W/V since they opened the plant in North Carolina . [shorter distance cheaper shipping] The certainteed from N/C is the best regular board I've laid hands on.. It has a nice recess with good clean cuts on the factory butts ..Very solid /heavy board.


The certainteed board I get says Kentucky on it.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> The certainteed board I get says Kentucky on it.


You like the board?


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## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

moore said:


> You like the board?


Yes. The board is more dense then the other garbage lite weight boards.


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