# Installing T-Bar Ceilings



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

No posts in this topic for one month as of today, so I thought we could discuss T-Bar ceilings. I was fortunate enough to be taught how by some great ceiling guys back in the early 80's. When I had jobs where I was the walls and the ceiling I would layout the ceilings when doing wall layout. This made my grid super square and when dropping in tegular (tile that hangs slightly below grid line) tile it would look perfect. Here's the USG Donn installation guide:

https://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG...spended-ceiling-installation-guide-en-R38.pdf

I noticed something that is different in that we used to wrap our wire 3 full turns in 1 1/2" and this guide says 3 turns in 3"? How many of you do ceilings too?

Back at this time we bought 2 Spectraphysics Lasers at $5000 a piece. We always joked that every time it got dropped it was $1000 to get it fixed. They were made in Mountainview California which is the heart of Silicon Valley.


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

I was taught on wires that it must be 4 twists. I myself get atleast 6 or 7 on both ends. We do ceilings all the time and I cant stand doing teg tile. I never thought to layout ceilings while framing, that would save time as long as the taper aint to messy:whistling2:


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

I do a lot of ceiling but differently

We don't use the wires which are considered old and hard fashion. We use clips with 6 mm rods which make our lives easier when comes to adjusting the level. 

It's so easy I just wonder why you don't use it over there ( since you invented them)????


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

for perfect square I use this :thumbsup: :yes:


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

keke said:


> It's so easy I just wonder why you don't use it over there ( since you invented them)????


Because it is not a positive mechanical connection and subject to failure during grid shifting under seismic or high wind loading. I'll never forget all the work I had to do after the 1989 Loma Prieta (1989 World Series) Earthquake. Two weeks later we had another and I had to go back to places I had already repaired.

I did a warehouse with a 30' (about 9 meters) tall roof. The wind rolled the roof so hard it pulled the partitions off the floor. It took me awhile too figure out why the base board was above the flooring.

In California we have earthquake bracing consisting of a pole and 4 sway wires every 12' to keep the ceiling from shifting, and every perimeter member has a wire tied to it to keep the from falling on its occupants. I've seen this working after these members get pounded against the wall.

Being in an earthquake is a very humbling experience!


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

keke said:


> for perfect square I use this :thumbsup: :yes:


I just use jet line and snap out a single line and then use any variation of 3, 4, 5 to swing a 90 degree of the original line. I've found trying to align a laser in long distance to be a waste of time. Just call me old school, because sometimes the old ways are faster.

I knew an old guy with a hand crank screw jig for drilling wires and he was fast at it!

Edit:
Are you familiar with the Pythagorean Theorem?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem

3 meters on direction, and 4 meters in the other will have a hypotenuse of 5 meters. Or any multiple of such as 6, 8, 10, or even 30, 40, 50.

http://www.scotthansen.net/equation.html


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

chris said:


> I was taught on wires that it must be 4 twists. I myself get atleast 6 or 7 on both ends. We do ceilings all the time and I cant stand doing teg tile. I never thought to layout ceilings while framing, that would save time as long as the taper aint to messy:whistling2:


Better 4 than 2 3/4 and failing an inspection. I also wrap the tail up to keep it out of the way when dropping the tile.

I always spray a light coat of yellow paint over my lines to lock them down unless it was exposed concrete. Makes them easier to find over clear.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> Because it is not a positive mechanical connection and subject to failure during grid shifting under seismic or high wind loading. I'll never forget all the work I had to do after the 1989 Loma Prieta (1989 World Series) Earthquake. Two weeks later we had another and I had to go back to places I had already repaired.
> 
> I did a warehouse with a 30' (about 9 meters) tall roof. The wind rolled the roof so hard it pulled the partitions off the floor. It took me awhile too figure out why the base board was above the flooring.
> 
> ...



I understand your concern but in case of earthquake or strong winds it's the structure that fails first. T bar ceiling is just design and not part of structure. I used this system in different countries and never heard of a problem.... unless the building falls down.

Bracing and locking the ceiling in all 4 sides keeps the ceiling in place and I personally don't see the point of using wires.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

keke said:


> I understand your concern but in case of earthquake or strong winds it's the structure that fails first. T bar ceiling is just design and not part of structure. I used this system in different countries and never heard of a problem.... unless the building falls down.
> 
> Bracing and locking the ceiling in all 4 sides keeps the ceiling in place and I personally don't see the point of using wires.


 It's not my concern, but rather that of the governing code authority. I was simply explaining why. Ceilings here are considered part of the structure, and or dead load. Live load being everything you put in it. Our light fixtures are also tied off to prevent a falling hazard.

I have no problem with your method if it works for you. Do you have earthquakes there?


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> I just use jet line and snap out a single line and then use any variation of 3, 4, 5 to swing a 90 degree of the original line. I've found trying to align a laser in long distance to be a waste of time. Just call me old school, because sometimes the old ways are faster.
> 
> I knew an old guy with a hand crank screw jig for drilling wires and he was fast at it!
> 
> ...


yes familiar with it but even someone who has never studied or liked geometry can easily use 2 rolls of string and get the job done easier and quicker than everything else


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> I have no problem with your method if it works for you. Do you have earthquakes there?


only strong winds in Australia but in my homecountry plenty of earthquakes


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> Our light fixtures are also tied off to prevent a falling hazard.


our lights come with the clips system hooked on the main bar......if the ceiling falls the lights fall too...... nothing to do


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

keke said:


> our lights come with the clips system hooked on the main bar......if the ceiling falls the lights fall too...... nothing to do


 Ours are clipped to the grid, and tied with safety wires. Keep in mind that our standards are only as good as the enforcement. I just happen to be from an area with strict enforcement.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> Ours are clipped to the grid, and tied with safety wires. Keep in mind that our standards are only as good as the enforcement. I just happen to be from an area with strict enforcement.


Looking at your ways to do ceilings and walls must admit you have some high standards( eg tied the lights), but if you want perfection you should work the European way which I think is best ..... all drywall grid is not wires or rods(except t-bar ceiling) ....it's just bracing and + you're not allowed to use powder actuated tools


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

keke said:


> Looking at your ways to do ceilings and walls must admit you have some high standards( eg tied the lights), but if you want perfection you should work the European way which I think is best ..... all drywall grid is not wires or rods(except t-bar ceiling) ....it's just bracing and + you're not allowed to use powder actuated tools


 do your clips and rods come in 20' plus lengths . I like the idea of a clip system but I also like to get the wire done from the ground. We also use a clip that fastens all ts and mains to the wall angle ,then to wall. We call them bert clips. A PITA when putting in border tiles but eliminates seismic pod bracing.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

chris said:


> do your clips and rods come in 20' plus lengths . I like the idea of a clip system but I also like to get the wire done from the ground. We also use a clip that fastens all ts and mains to the wall angle ,then to wall. We call them bert clips. A PITA when putting in border tiles but eliminates seismic pod bracing.


 Chris, Are you talking about something similar to this?

http://www.keelmfg.com/files/Keel_Install_Guide.pdf

We used them on systems that you couldn't rivet like Fineline.


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

keke said:


> Looking at your ways to do ceilings and walls must admit you have some high standards( eg tied the lights), but if you want perfection you should work the European way which I think is best ..... all drywall grid is not wires or rods(except t-bar ceiling) ....it's just bracing and + you're not allowed to use powder actuated tools



What do you mean by bracing ?



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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Aussiecontractor said:


> What do you mean by bracing ?


check out this ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbpog_kT30


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

keke said:


> check out this ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbpog_kT30


I have no idea about that ceiling stuff they r doing but I would buy that little trolley thing the guy is on!:thumbup:


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Ahh I see, I like rigid systems for plasterboard also hooks and clips bounce around to much 


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

keke said:


> check out this ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbpog_kT30


What I don't get is that they have a perfectly good scaffold right next to them that could have the full sticks stocked on it, but they choose to use the little one and reach up as high as they can? And the other guy runs around with the ladder going up and down. The kid with the red sweatshirt and the sagging pants should get his butt chewed to stay busy.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> What I don't get is that they have a perfectly good scaffold right next to them that could have the full sticks stocked on it, but they choose to use the little one and reach up as high as they can? And the other guy runs around with the ladder going up and down. The kid with the red sweatshirt and the sagging pants should get his butt chewed to stay busy.


I don't have any clue why.....maybe they make to much $$$$$$$$


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Aussiecontractor said:


> Ahh I see, I like rigid systems for plasterboard also hooks and clips bounce around to much
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


and doesn't keep a perfect level after you hang the boards......at least it's what I've seen


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Yer it's not hard to pop a hanger out if your screwing to hard 


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

You Aussie's belong to a labor union, correct? It covers all facets of drywall?


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> You Aussie's belong to a labor union, correct? It covers all facets of drywall?


You belong to a labor union just if you are a member and work on a union site but *what do you mean by " being covered on all facets of drywall"?*


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Or do you mean like the awci which is the association of wall and ceiling industries ? 


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

keke said:


> You belong to a labor union just if you are a member and work on a union site but *what do you mean by " being covered on all facets of drywall"?*


 Facets means all sides or aspects of the trade. I was not allowed technically to do any taping because it was under the umbrella of a different trade union. I'm curious because I know your country supports union's and here in America the government does not. I've also heard you receive training through an apprenticeship? Here in some states you can go buy a hammer and call yourself a contractor. In other states you must pass an exam.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Aussiecontractor said:


> Or do you mean like the awci which is the association of wall and ceiling industries ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The AWCI we call the Wall & Ceiling Association is a trade association that supports industry and not the workers themselves.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> Facets means all sides or aspects of the trade. I was not allowed technically to do any taping because it was under the umbrella of a different trade union. I'm curious because I know your country supports union's and here in America the government does not. I've also heard you receive training through an apprenticeship? Here in some states you can go buy a hammer and call yourself a contractor. In other states you must pass an exam.


Trades are under the same union but you do only what you're qualified to do.
Australia supports unions - yes and no ( personally i'm against them)
Government supports apprenticeship but you need to find a company to work as an apprentice for.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

keke said:


> Trades are under the same union but you do only what you're qualified to do.
> Australia supports unions - yes and no ( personally i'm against them)
> Government supports apprenticeship but you need to find a company to work as an apprentice for.


I'm curious Keke, why are you against them.
I've never been in the union and don't personally have a problem with them, other than the fact that other trades which were union had members who would try to intimidate nonunion workers. 
They would write on the walls things like "I kill scabs" or "guns don't kill scabs, I kill scabs" among other things. (a scab is a nonunion worker).
I would reply scabs stop the hemorrhaging. 
And then I've worked with union guys who were a pleasure to work with. 
I think the unions help keep labor rates up to a livable wage even for nonunion workers.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

PA, a scab is a strike breaker. Either union or non union who crosses a sanctioned picket line. Unions consider non union to be Rats. Your point is understood. I think there's room for both in the US. I was more curious with how they work in other countries. I wonder because they have government support are they more corrupt?
Myself, I never gave it much thought until I started teaching apprenticeship. I quit after 5 years because my bosses were people I'd fire in the field. I did enjoy the students though and the whole light bulb effect when someone actually got it.


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

Mr Willys, IBEW workers in the Hazelton area referred to us as scabs, we didn't cross a picket line, so I guess that makes them uneducated in the unions manner of intimidation.
I still wouldn't gain any respect for someone who uses derogatory comments like scab or rat to refer to others working a job.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Mr Willys, IBEW workers in the Hazelton area referred to us as scabs, we didn't cross a picket line, so I guess that makes them uneducated in the unions manner of intimidation.
> I still wouldn't gain any respect for someone who uses derogatory comments like scab or rat to refer to others working a job.


 It's funny you say this, because in 1997 I was doing a Target store and my union came out and picketed because our pension money was somehow involved (they had a right) and I was shocked at the tactic they used. Target had hired non union to assemble the store fixtures. They had to send out someone I knew quite well to convince me not to cross. However, I have now come to terms with the tactic because the other side is just as dirty as evidenced by the last 30 years here in the US.
Someone had to explain the difference of a scab and rat for me to understand. I just though you might want to know. IBEW is a good union, and I respect them for rotating their apprentices through all facets of there craft. Residential, commercial, and industrial. Sometimes I wish mine would do that to turn out well rounded people.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> I'm curious Keke, why are you against them.


long story short:if you're the employer it's very bad for you ... if you're employee it's pretty good.As employer your job price must be min 30% higher than non-union job just to support union's caprices. For ex, plumbers connect new pipe in existing sewers, you can feel the smell on the level = union sent 70 people home on the employer's expense; another one: union meeting in the lunch room, few guys don't have chairs and tables = everybody goes home until problem solved 

Another problem is corruption including on the site not just behind the scenes....have a nice time reading

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/1...t-the-centre-of-corruption-allegations-2014-1

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/b...an-construction-union-officials-report-2014-1

http://www.smh.com.au/national/bribery-dirty-deals-rife-in-building-industry-20140127-31j0a.html

http://aussiecriminals.com.au/2014/...rife-in-building-industry-cfmeu-in-spotlight/

http://www.afr.com/news/policy/industrial-relations/building-union-took-bribes-20140127-iy6nv

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au...man-mick-gattos-gangland-style/14141556001161


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

When the union represents me correctly I will be member with my fees up to date


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

keke said:


> long story short:if you're the employer it's very bad for you ... if you're employee it's pretty good.As employer your job price must be min 30% higher than non-union job just to support union's caprices. For ex, plumbers connect new pipe in existing sewers, you can feel the smell on the level = union sent 70 people home on the employer's expense; another one: union meeting in the lunch room, few guys don't have chairs and tables = everybody goes home until problem solved
> 
> Another problem is corruption including on the site not just behind the scenes....have a nice time reading
> 
> ...


Okay, these links except the last appear to be of the same event. Was anything proven? Or was this reality as stated by Gatto?

What about all the evidence given to the commission regarding the CFMEU, I ask.
“Look, royal commissions are witch-hunts. Lawyers lining their pockets. There’s no evidence. People say things which then become gospel. Take this rubbish given by Chiavaroli about me and Ken Hardy.”


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Agree with keke I don't like unions, sure they do a lot of good....
But they are also no good for the economy driving up prices of labour, blowing out job times and corrupt as hell 
I'd rather fight my own battles for the $100 a month or what ever they charge to be apart off 



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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> Okay, these links except the last appear to be of the same event. Was anything proven? Or was this reality as stated by Gatto?
> 
> What about all the evidence given to the commission regarding the CFMEU, I ask.
> “Look, royal commissions are witch-hunts. Lawyers lining their pockets. There’s no evidence. People say things which then become gospel. Take this rubbish given by Chiavaroli about me and Ken Hardy.”


have a look at this case and tell me if you as a small business owner would like union on your site 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...Vr6XDsutyATq8I3oBA#q=grocon+vs+cfmeu&start=10


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

and now buck on track

how many m2 you guys have managed to do per day


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Aussiecontractor said:


> Agree with keke I don't like unions, sure they do a lot of good....
> But they are also no good for the economy driving up prices of labour, blowing out job times and corrupt as hell
> I'd rather fight my own battles for the $100 a month or what ever they charge to be apart off
> 
> ...


 Not to mention the freedom the independents have.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> It's not my concern, but rather that of the governing code authority. I was simply explaining why. Ceilings here are considered part of the structure, and or dead load. Live load being everything you put in it. Our light fixtures are also tied off to prevent a falling hazard.


Interesting how big companies adapt to local markets...and don't consider a better product made by them but sold in another part of the world

Australin market - this is an Armstrong product designed just for one type of clips- no holes for wires
while Armstrongs sells a similar product with holes in USA


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

I've never seen the one in the pictures. Here's from down under:

http://www.armstrong-aust.com.au/commclgpac/content/files/75965.pdf

Here in the US:

http://www.armstrong.com/pdbupimages/206858.pdf

It is interesting that it is different. We used to allow a system similar to yours and I'm sure it got nixed after an earthquake.


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## gordie (Nov 6, 2012)

Great thread guys I don't get to do any t bar Ive done a lot of the tile just not any grid. In my neck of the woods guys have really specialized themselves for the tbar so they get all the work they are good but I wouldn't mind knowing how to do it myself I do a lot of steelstud just can't offer a skill that I don't have . Really trying to put my efforts into learning to tape all I need to complete my set is boxes and pump so I'm close to making my fisrt taping mess lol. 
So tks guys threads like this are just great for the trade I think. I know of no other reference guide and it come with constant upgrades


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> I've never seen the one in the pictures. Here's from down under:
> 
> http://www.armstrong-aust.com.au/commclgpac/content/files/75965.pdf
> 
> ...


we have most of your products + some designed just for Aussie.....this grid is made by thick aluminium and have to be cut with drop saw 

http://www.armstrong-aust.com.au/commclgpac/en-au/grid-datapage.asp?productLineId=1469

http://www.armstrong-aust.com.au/commclgpac/en-au/ceilings.asp/grid/_/N-1z141qpZ1z141mp


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

the job I finished few weeks ago


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

still a bit of work left to do in the lobby but that's for finishers after lights go in......who knows when


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Almost makes me miss it? I do miss thinking it through. I had a knack for building it in my head as I laid out the walls. I learned if I made a mistake to just tear it apart and do it right. The above looks great!


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys said:


> Almost makes me miss it?


and this will make you miss it even more


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

4" clamps the best for ceiling work


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

From left to right. Linesmans pliers, tin snips (aviation shears), Laser card, T-Bar clamps (for whatever reason I used to have a lot more), Pop Rivitor, Whitney Punch. Not saying it's better or worse but just what we used.








I've still got screw jigs, shotgun poles and shotguns. I threw my PLS 180 away as it was out of calibration. I still have an instrument if I need to shoot grade though. I used it on my concrete flatwork.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

never used whitney punch actually I think the drill is more handy to punch a hole and i agree with you pls is a garbage because doesn't have pendulum lock\off and is always out of level


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

keke said:


> 4" clamps the best for ceiling work




Check out the quick release ones by Irwin 


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

keke said:


> never used whitney punch actually I think the drill is more handy to punch a hole and i agree with you pls is a garbage because doesn't have pendulum lock\off and is always out of level


 I was taught ceilings in the early 80's when cordless drills were just coming out. We attached the wall molding with fence staples (U shaped). Because I was good at nailing from the shacks it came natural to me. The clamps we used didn't dent the material like the vice grip can but aren't as strong so the Whitney punch would clamp it in place and hold it tight just before punching the hole.

I think we're different in suspension because we use wires and I think you use rods? I've always said methodology isn't as important as desire. The guy who wants to get it done the fastest is the best vs method.

Do you build walls to the grid? We do unless we need a fire rating or occupant separation.


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Yeah walls we build to grid bulkheads normally have to be independent nowadays 


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

You can build the bulkhead on the ceiling grid, but you need to put struts and wires every 12'. Had an auditorium at a university last year. The ceiling was two levels, Optima 6"lower than a Woodworks 1x4 in black grid. The transitional bulkhead was semi eliptical. Floor was slopped, architect wanted 18g steel to deck 4'above. Ended up building the drop with 25g track and drywall, no studs at all, just the wires and struts every 12 along the curve.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Mark in Montreal said:


> You can build the bulkhead on the ceiling grid, but you need to put struts and wires every 12'. Had an auditorium at a university last year. The ceiling was two levels, Optima 6"lower than a Woodworks 1x4 in black grid. The transitional bulkhead was semi eliptical. Floor was slopped, architect wanted 18g steel to deck 4'above. Ended up building the drop with 25g track and drywall, no studs at all, just the wires and struts every 12 along the curve.


Welcome to the board Mark. You mean like this?


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

I know it's inexcusable but I don't have any photos. What I did was build the T-bar for the upper ceiling first (9/16 superfine), stabilize with bracing to keep it straight as it was only tied on one wall. Then I cut drywall on the appropriate arc, notched track and screwed it to the drywall. Then I made a few reference points on the grid and attached it in its place. Then it strips of board the depth of the bulkhead (6") and put them on the track leaving 3/8ths for the tegular Woodworks. Capped it with board. After the lower grid was built and tied in I strutted it as per Armstrong's requirements: a vertical post was with for wires at right angles to the grid kind of like this:


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

These struts ran ever 12' along the length of the curved bulkhead.


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Bit hard to see 
This is 1.15 bmt studs built down from the roof purlins with cross and angle braces and 3 screws at each intersection of steel 

We then sheet the face. Then run the grid into the bulkhead










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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Mark in Montreal said:


> These struts ran ever 12' along the length of the curved bulkhead.


In California that is called seismic bracing and all ceilings are braced in this manner. We also have all perimeter members tied with an independent wires. Light fixtures get wires too. After the 1989 Loma Prieta Quake I had miles of repair to do. Cracks in drywall kept finishers busy.


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

https://goo.gl/images/tSqefM


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Aussiecontractor said:


> Check out the quick release ones by Irwin


I had a look but I didn't find under 6".....at this size I prefer to use Hanson self-adjusting


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

This a link to the finished ceiling I was speaking of. Your bulkhead is a lot larger than the one I built. If I were to do yours I would definitely have dropped full stud , used channel with wires to structure, braced to keep square and plumb and done ceiling after.


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

Oddly, Montreal is given the d,e,f categories for seismic. They act like we are Palo Alto CA. Do you guys in CA use Drywall grid?


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Mark in Montreal said:


> Oddly, Montreal is given the d,e,f categories for seismic. They act like we are Palo Alto CA. Do you guys in CA use Drywall grid?


Yes, and I grew up 30 miles East of Palo Alto, CA. I'm not as good with the new code as I was trained under old West coast UBC. Our new code ICC has provisions for seismic zones and places risk hazard based on occupancy. So a Hospital design standard is much more stringent than a hay barn.

I started in the trade doing CRC and Drywall furring channel (AKA Hat Rack) and started using Grid for drywall in the late 1980's.


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...gghMAE&usg=AFQjCNHJBB9CWDSgz_3mvQ3OcOU1Uj8Usg


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

Check the link out.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Mark in Montreal said:


> Check the link out.


Not really any different from USG.

https://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG...ts/usg-ceilings-systems-catalog-en-SC2000.pdf

Armstrong bought Chicago Metallic and USG bought out Donn. The Donn system was always my favorite and clipped together better than Chicago Metallic.


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

Roxul bought Chicago actually. No it is not much different, but Armstrong's support network is better.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Mark,
Apparently we are both wrong.
The company was owned by Jahn family from 1938 to 2013. In August 19, 2013, the company was acquired by the ROCKWOOL International 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Metallic_Corporation

http://www.rockwool.com/


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

Up here engineers have no clue about drywall grid. Was wondering what kind of seismic bracing the drywall grid gets where you are
.


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

starting 6' from a wall and every 12' you get a post engineered based on length with 4 wires 90 degrees apart at a 45 degree or greater angle. This keeps the grid from uplifting or shifting.
https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/en/products-solutions/solutions/seismic/ibc-category-c.html


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## Mark in Montreal (Aug 29, 2016)

This is for dw grid too?


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## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Only in Hospitals and Schools in California and anything overseen by the Division of State Architect. Yes, most would think that with the diaphragm drywall creates and it's weight there would be no movement. However, we take no chance with the above.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

question for you MrWillys.....what it's your next move?

they said it's finished.....16 hrs work on that ceiling ..... I can do it in 1 hr-that including my smoko time

I bet you've never seen something like that.... at least for me it's first time 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SOX4YfYag


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

Woah - that is **** 


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

I took a pic with all ceiling......I can't believe somebody can fail so much on something so small 


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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

That bulkhead looks like it's got nothing fixed off on the top track
And how are the rods fixed off its hard to see 


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Just finished this job...... clean and easy..... love it 


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

Apprentice said he wants to play a big game in this industry ..... leave the tiles for him









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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

I was called to fix some defects on one job and I picked one for you guys ...... what you think about this?










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## Aussiecontractor (Oct 6, 2014)

What a douche 


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

This is a good one too











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