# Union vs non-union



## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

MrWillys gave me the idea for this topic

guys bring it up what you prefer and why?


----------



## P.E.I.Taper (May 4, 2015)

I work for the union drywall company on my island, you must be in the union to work as a "carpenter" but over the years they have given me a handful of reasons they dont want me in the union. Out of 20 finishers for the company, only two are union members, but they dont talk much to help a young guy like me.

So I would be a fan, but it all comes down to bottom line for me. And there is no other company on this island that will compete with my wage, so I take a good job for what it is.

Maybe if I was union I wouldnt be planning on going back to school though.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

First, we all share a bond here as drywallers whether we are sweating in the Summer or running hard to stay warm in the Winter. This is a potentially divisive subject and I don't care whether you are union or not. If you're making a living and taking care of your family you've got my vote.

Anti union claims that union members are all thugs, so I just want to say I've never been convicted of anything other than an infraction (speeding ticket and pot when I was 18), so if I'm a thug for being union so be it.

In California we had a governor who convinced the legislature to deregulate energy. After he left office companies like Enron, Duke, and Reliant created a false energy shortage that bilked 50 billion from California and no one was ever charged with a crime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

And they claim I'm a thug for being a union member?


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Bob and George both graduate high school and go to work doing drywall. 
Bob grows up in Houston Texas and his employer has no employees and tells Bob he's a contractor (no license required in Texas) and he goes to work most days and becomes a journeyman. He works about 1800 hrs a year and makes $25 and hour as an independent contractor. He does his taxes and files a schedule C and writes off his expenses and his gross income of $45,000 is substantially reduced so he pays little Social Security taxes or income tax. He meets a woman and he buys a house, but can't marry because they'll lose the food stamps and Medicaid her and the kids get.

George gets hired as stocker scrapper in a drywall company in San Francisco, CA. He has to go join the union and pay dues monthly and for every hour he works. Soon he works his way up and gets indentured as an apprentice. He goes to work most days and 4 times a year he goes to school for an entire week where he learns different aspects of the trade he doesn't do at his company (he gets 40 units of college credit too). He soon becomes a journeyman and works about 1800 hrs a year and makes $42.40 an hour plus benefits. He gets married and saves for a house (they're expensive in CA) and has a couple kids. He pays Social Security on his full income of $76,320 every year, gets pension credits for every year he works, and $5 an hour into a 401k program.

http://cfao.org/PDF/Employers/Wage/Drywall_Current_Rates.pdf

George's employer makes millions as his share of big union projects. Bob's employer makes his cut off his independent contractors and manages to save a few bucks.

George and Bob are now 60 years old and neither can hang sheetrock anymore. 

Bob couldn't save much as an independent contractor and his small amount of Social Security can't be collected until he's 62. He now qualifies for food stamps and gets Medicaid for his health coverage.

George retired at 55 with full health coverage from the union and a few hundred thousand in his 401k. When he turns 62 his Social Security will be high because it was based on his full wage. He travels with his wife and enjoys the fruits of his hard working career as a drywaller.

This is reality in America today, so you chose which one you would rather be.


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Bob shouldnt have went to Texas as its the lowest paying state for drywall work.


----------



## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

Its been unfair for too many years for Americans vote Trump!


----------



## P.E.I.Taper (May 4, 2015)

The union held a leadership convention last weekend in las vegas. Some local union carpenter formen went down for the event. They were told it was to build leadership skills. 

They were told the union used to be accountable for 60% of the available work. They are currently down to 13%. They were told to work harder and get more young men involved, otherwise if no one pays into the pension, his wont be there.

With all the baby boomers getting ready to retire, is it worth the risk?


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

P.E.I.Taper said:


> The union held a leadership convention last weekend in las vegas. Some local union carpenter formen went down for the event. They were told it was to build leadership skills.
> 
> They were told the union used to be accountable for 60% of the available work. They are currently down to 13%. They were told to work harder and get more young men involved, otherwise if no one pays into the pension, his wont be there.
> 
> With all the baby boomers getting ready to retire, is it worth the risk?


You might be confused about market share. Currently in the US union membership is just below 13% of the workforce. The Carpenters union market share runs at about 50%, because we do the large projects which involve a lot of money. Currently, we're building the California Bullet train, remodeling US Congressional building, and we just finished the Stadium the SF 49ers play in to name a few. We constantly are doing Bridge and heavy highway and even the Tesla project near my home here in Reno is Union.

I don't know what class your friend took but I've been there several times and I've even taught classes there. I hated being away from my wife for a week at a time.

https://www.carpenters.org/Todays_UBC_Top_Nav/Ops_Locations/ITC_Main.aspx

As for pension funds! They are protected by law with much federal oversight. IE: a fund that is over 110% funded must increase its promised payouts or be taxed on its excess'. I went from $60 a month for every year worked in 1996 to $200 a month by 1999. In 2006 they passed the Pension Protection Act. This doubled the liabilities of multi employer funds like ours from 15 years to 30 years. We went from being over 100% funded to 68% by a single stroke of a pen. In reality it is good for me because it protects the pension assets. The union has made changes and we're coming back up every year now but it takes time. I'm confident in my Northern California fund lasting my lifetime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pension_Protection_Act_of_2006

Let's take Teamsters as an example of failing funds. Truckers used to be Teamsters, but starting in the 80's corporations learned they could make drivers owner operators and they busted the Teamsters with this tactic. Now these poor drivers get just enough to survive and will have little savings after a career of driving. Drivers make truck payments, insurance, and fuel cost fluctuations kick their butts. Is this good for the American working class?

Misclassification of employees as independent contractor is doing the same thing to our trade. 40 years ago this was unheard of and today it is common practice. Anyone who claims working class people make too much are being very foolish.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

I think I have said this before, but I will say it again.

If you are going to work for a contractor, work for a union contractor. If you are going to be a contractor, stay away.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

If you are going to work for a union contractor, be a employee of the company, more than a member of the union. I Have seen a lot of people come and go, by calling the union to tattle tale that labors are hanging lath, slinging mud ect. Every time I saw this happen the person was gone, laid off. The union did nothing to stop this, and nobody likes a tattletale.


----------



## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

The carpenters union and painters and allied trades union are_ *almost* _nonexistent in my area. If you do work for those unions there's nothing in the area for you, get ready for a real long ride to work. I'm in the trade since 1990 and haven't met more than a small few in these trades. 
We see more teachers unions than anything else. 
It seams there's always a strike with the teachers.


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

The trades union is strong around here. A lot of the strength is related to the UAW and teamsters. The UAW Has been busted, now they have little power. A lot of the members have took buy outs. And have been replaced with labor ready workers for half the wage and no beniifets.

A lot of ex union members around here.


----------



## Oldtimer (May 6, 2015)

Over the past 35 years I've been doing this, I've just run into a Union issue once and that was about 30 years ago. I was working for a commercial contracting company and we were starting on a new job. One day a carpenters union rep came by and asked me for my union card, before I could answer a painter union rep came by and asked me the same question. Both of the union reps started to argue about which union I should belong to. The carpenter union rep said I should be in their union because all drywallers are. The painter rep said that because I do finishing work on drywall I should be in their union. 
I just said to them, when you guys figure out which union I should be in with come back and let me know. I just walked away and continued my work. Have never been approached since that day about joining or having to be in a union since that day. So, not sure if that's a good or bad thing. I just go to work, get the job done, get paid. Done deal :thumbsup:


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

Mr.Brightstar said:


> I think I have said this before, but I will say it again.
> 
> If you are going to work for a contractor, work for a union contractor. If you are going to be a contractor, stay away.


 I agree with this if you're a residential contractor with 10 to 15 guys. Keep in mind that I grew up in a union residential shop in California doing tract work in the 70's. We did go commercial in the early 80's and I even went back to shacks in the 90's at my request for a while.

PA, you must live away from a large metro area like Philly? I worked for 5 sole owners in my career that ran between 25 to 100+ guys doing commercial for 85% of my time. I never worked for any company listed on the NYSE like KHSS that are nation wide. All these owners accumulated wealth that will provide their families for generations. I did a 1.2 million dollar contract in 2000 and after materials, labor and overhead was paid there was $550,000 profit in a 6 month job. My vacation in Cabo that year was paid for by my boss.

Your comments about company men are dead on. Not once did I get a job through the union hall, and I hated hiring from it. I would always contact people I knew and try to borrow people first. In 2011 I needed finishers and had 4 the next day from a guy I hadn't talked to in 10 years.

In the long run I think I'm better off because I was union. I never attended meeting until I became an instructor. My thought was how can I stand in front of these people and teach them if I myself didn't go. If you want to live in a rural area you will most likely need to be non union, but in a major metro union work can be found.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

MrWillys said:


> Currently, we're building the California Bullet train, remodeling US Congressional building, and we just finished the Stadium the SF 49ers play in to name a few. We constantly are doing Bridge and heavy highway and even the Tesla project near my home here in Reno is Union.
> 
> .


Deadlines ? Did they or will they meet them? Or are they just sucking titty ?


----------



## Mr.Brightstar (Dec 2, 2011)

moore said:


> Deadlines ? Did they or will they meet them? Or are they just sucking titty ?



It's not the UAW moore. Yes on time and on budget comes first. Safety second. If you cant produce, your gone.


----------



## MrWillys (Mar 10, 2014)

moore said:


> Deadlines ? Did they or will they meet them? Or are they just sucking titty ?


You ain't lived until you build out 45,000 sq ft of tenant space in 60 days to C of O. Ceilings, walls, rock, finish, doors frames and hardware, and I was on crutches. Laid it out in a chair with wheels days before a knee surgery. You'd make the cut Moore. Semi loads of board craned through a window so you'd be in heaven.


----------

