# Spraying Level 5



## ProductionDrywall (Sep 19, 2011)

Has anyone lot's of experience with spraying level 5 over level 4?

I've done everything from trowel, to roll on a level 5 but I'm trying to get away from sanding?

Has anyone had success spraying that required minimal or no sanding?


----------



## Captain Drywall (Aug 15, 2011)

the spraying ive done makes it smooth cept where the wallss were oversanded


----------



## McDusty (Oct 12, 2009)

Synko T.I.P.S primer, gives a level 5 like finish. When you sand it, there is a lot of dust, and it primes. A+ stuff.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

So the 5th level is prime?
I thought the painters done that.:blink:


----------



## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

welcome production drywall. i've seen your truck and trailer around town before.


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

here you go http://www.drywalltalk.com/f2/level-4-vs-level-5-finish-2086/

http://www.drywalltalk.com/f8/level-5-a-91/

http://www.drywalltalk.com/f7/level-5-spraying-mud-1282/


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

moore said:


> So the 5th level is prime?
> I thought the painters done that.:blink:


5th level is just a quality of finish.From what Ive seen Moore your work would definitly pass as level 5 . Some manufacturers created products like level 5 ,its basically a good sandable primer,helps with flashing. We dont spray our level 5 walls....


----------



## Captain Drywall (Aug 15, 2011)

Most tapers around here wouldnt know level 5 if it bite em. So they have me spray something called prep coat over their level 3.75 work and call it good. Prep coat is ment to be put on under texture. They make a sprayable coating ment for levleling the work. there is one taper named Dave who does real level 5, he gets treated like a god.


----------



## muttbucket (Jul 10, 2011)

spraying or rolling on the last coat of mud in level five application means roller or squeegee marks must be dealt with.
BS on anybody that says the "putty coat" "piss coat" "sheer coat" "blank coat" "level 5 coat" etc.
doesn't need to be wipped with a metal knife.
I've listened to you journeymen experts for the last time.
A sheer coat needs to be hand applied and wiped with a metal knife.
Then sanded with 220 micro.
blabla bla on how many of you know how to make it perfect a different way.
I'm not paying for any different way ever again.
Hand applied and wiped with a metal knife or don't.
I am the one paying so that's the way I'll be doing it.
All other methods are pretending.
One more thing 
Spraying intermediate coating doesn't take the place of sheer coat.
Not over level 4, level 4 and a half, or level 5.
Period end of story.
An intermediate coat also isn't primer.
A high build high solids coating meant to hide imperfections in the PROFILE of the sheetrock, prep coat sounds a lot like a material you can use in place of good sanding or mud work.
BUT YOU CAN'T!
It is wrong and also begs the question how are you selling level 5 without completing level 5?


----------



## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

muttbucket said:


> spraying or rolling on the last coat of mud in level five application means roller or squeegee marks must be dealt with.
> BS on anybody that says the "putty coat" "piss coat" "sheer coat" "blank coat" "level 5 coat" etc.
> doesn't need to be wipped with a metal knife.
> I've listened to you journeymen experts for the last time.
> ...


A level 5 is achieved by coating the paper on the rock so that the wall or ceiling will have all one consistency of drywall cement. It hides the Minuit imperfections that would otherwise be magnified by light whether natural or some other lighting... I agree with the wiping down whether it is by a metal blade or not I guess it all depends how much you want to sand. Applying the taping mud is a personal preference as to how you want to do it ... Skimming out a wall to a level 5 does not mean you have to have a thick layer on it just enough to cover the texture of the wallboard and thereby prevent flashing.... If you want to take all the time and effort to do it by hand well all I have to say is more power to you It does not make it the correct and only way just because you say it is. And what are you talking about you are not going to PAY TO HAVE IT DONE ANY OTHER WAY are you not the one doing the work???? If not you really don't have any right to tell any journeyman how to go about his business, That's MY STORY AND I AM STICKING TOO IT!!!!!


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

A d/c here [a hole low baller] Finishes his jobs out then pays a painter to spray the primer .He calls this level 5.. runs and all.


----------



## muttbucket (Jul 10, 2011)

nah, you mistook my tone-
I'm talking about personally and professionally in my own business,
I will not allow anything other than hand applied level 5 wiped with a metal knife on any of my jobs,
additionally as a consultant,
I am absolutely going to recommend against any company that says they spray or roll and squeegee.
I've seen lots of them, and no,
even a really good wiper behind an excellent mud man doesn't come out as good as a hand applied finish using a metal knife to wipe it.
I've also heard it all blablabla about how this way or that way works.
Level 5 means level 5.
We all know what it is.
Trying to define it a new buggy way is nothing less than an affront to craftsmen that take pains to do it right and by the book.


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

the only way to achieve level 5 is to PAY for it.... period :yes:


----------



## Bill from Indy (Apr 26, 2010)

muttbucket said:


> nah, you mistook my tone-
> I'm talking about personally and professionally in my own business,
> I will not allow anything other than hand applied level 5 wiped with a metal knife on any of my jobs,
> additionally as a consultant,
> ...


muttbucket, I mean no disrespect in saying this

I have probably L5 more DAP in the past 2 years than you have seen in "drywall" in 5....if your saying a L5 can only be done with knife...your an idiot and if doing it for a sub rate, your an underpaid idiot...a L5 has to be sanded..no way around it for it to be right...if you want to sand 14"/12"/10" laps...so be it...to come in here and say a "journeyman" HAS to use a metal knife is just wrong, imo


----------



## Soultear (Sep 4, 2011)

ProductionDrywall said:


> Has anyone lot's of experience with spraying level 5 over level 4?
> 
> I've done everything from trowel, to roll on a level 5 but I'm trying to get away from sanding?
> 
> Has anyone had success spraying that required minimal or no sanding?


Foam backed sand paper, less sponging for final product. I recommend 150-180 grit 3M Only picture I could find,but you get the idea.


----------



## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

muttbucket said:


> nah, you mistook my tone-
> I'm talking about personally and professionally in my own business,
> I will not allow anything other than hand applied level 5 wiped with a metal knife on any of my jobs,
> additionally as a consultant,
> ...


 Oh consultant huh? I guess that makes you correct... maybe in your own mind..


----------



## muttbucket (Jul 10, 2011)

let's count backward

31,30,29,28,27,26,25,24,23,22,21,20,19,18.17.16.15.14.13.12.11.10.9.8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1
this is how many years I've been listening to all the greatest things that have hit drywall.

All the scheming, all the criticism.
All the plain lowering of standards.
I am saying I will not have nor will I recommend any drywaller spray or roll, then squeegee off mud in a level 5 application.
Yeah keep on doing it your way,
I'll keep doing it the right way.


----------



## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

muttbucket said:


> let's count backward
> 
> 31,30,29,28,27,26,25,24,23,22,21,20,19,18.17.16.15.14.13.12.11.10.9.8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1
> this is how many years I've been listening to all the greatest things that have hit drywall.
> ...


 You would have to start a little higher on the count for me, but that aside, we are not talking about the greatest things that hit the drywall , we are talking about a form of achieving a level 5. You are right do it your own way... who cares how you do it I don't that is for sure coming from a post you made about when not wanting to work how you can break various parts on your tube,( and brag about it) intelligent not... lazy perhaps...


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

silverstilts said:


> You would have to start a little higher on the count for me, but that aside, we are not talking about the greatest things that hit the drywall , we are talking about a form of achieving a level 5. You are right do it your own way... who cares how you do it I don't that is for sure coming from a post you made about when not wanting to work how you can break various parts on your tube,( and brag about it) intelligent not... lazy perhaps...


When silver Stilts gets you in his sites


----------



## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Sprayplast.....


----------



## Soultear (Sep 4, 2011)

muttbucket said:


> nah, you mistook my tone-
> I'm talking about personally and professionally in my own business,
> I will not allow anything other than hand applied level 5 wiped with a metal knife on any of my jobs,
> additionally as a consultant,
> ...


Well unless you have over 100000- 500000 feet of board to do, I would suggest a spray and roll method. You would simply be there forever if your guys were hand coating everything + you would not be making any money.


----------



## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

What would be the difference in the final product between spraying the mud on then finishing with a knife or squeege, or laying it on by hand, and finishing it by hand? Either way the mud is applied, and then 'troweled' off by your weapon of choice. I know what it says in the 'handbook', BUT the handbook has had some changes over the years. Who is to say that in a few years it won't change to include sprayable L5 products. To me the handbook is a set of guidelines, not Dogma!


----------



## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

heres how we did the last L5 projects. - 

2 coats of mud on everything, normal finishing. 3rd -coat, instead of skimming your final coat, we rolled on the L5. Then we added an additional L5 coat, another roll and whip. 1 finisher on stilts or lift, and another on the ground rolling. Got to make sure you don't let the mud rolled out dry, and not to LEAVE MARKS FROM YOUR KNIFE. Then sand lightly with a pole, and go over it with a lamp. 1 coat of L5 will not do it, stuff still flashes through it. You need to skim it twice to really leave it all white.

I wonder if anyone every tried mixing primer with mud, and skimming it?


----------



## fr8train (Jan 20, 2008)

joepro0000 said:


> heres how we did the last L5 projects. -
> 
> 2 coats of mud on everything, normal finishing. 3rd -coat, instead of skimming your final coat, we rolled on the L5. Then we added an additional L5 coat, another roll and whip. 1 finisher on stilts or lift, and another on the ground rolling. Got to make sure you don't let the mud rolled out dry, and not to LEAVE MARKS FROM YOUR KNIFE. Then sand lightly with a pole, and go over it with a lamp. 1 coat of L5 will not do it, stuff still flashes through it. You need to skim it twice to really leave it all white.
> 
> I wonder if anyone every tried mixing primer with mud, and skimming it?


How tight are you pulling these 2 coats of L5?


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

I wonder if anyone every tried mixing primer with mud, and skimming it?[/QUOTE]

often wandered that myself ,,seems like it might roll up a bit /leave trash..don't know ,,never tried it... :blink:


----------



## Captain Drywall (Aug 15, 2011)

could be I am just a great sprayman. try to keep up.


----------



## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Mixing a little primer in with your mud can make it a bit easier to spray, but a high build surfacer like sprayplast or rucoat equalizer plus is a much better option for a level 5 finish.


----------



## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

fr8train said:


> How tight are you pulling these 2 coats of L5?


As tight as possible, real slick!


----------



## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Captain Drywall said:


> could be I am just a great sprayman. try to keep up.


Tell us more


----------



## Soultear (Sep 4, 2011)

Cormac said:


> I agree with the endorsement of Sprayplast. NO sanding! Incredible stuff.


I know a drywall sub straight is uneven from factory, if you shine a light on a new piece of board its full of imperfections. With actual sunlight on it amplifies the imperfections. 

How does the consistency of Sprayplast be for a "smooth wall" with a full gloss paint finish? Does it spray on like paint? I have never used it before and if it's recommended by other trades to speed up time I will start for certain projects. Thanks.


----------



## Bill from Indy (Apr 26, 2010)

Soultear said:


> I know a drywall sub straight is uneven from factory, if you shine a light on a new piece of board its full of imperfections. With actual sunlight on it amplifies the imperfections.
> 
> How does the consistency of Sprayplast be for a "smooth wall" with a full gloss paint finish? Does it spray on like paint? I have never used it before and if it's recommended by other trades to speed up time I will start for certain projects. Thanks.


we use sprayplast a lot in medical buildings here..75% of the time, the contract goes to painter but we do some too..to me, it is about the best material you can use for L5...it won't sand hardly at all, so make sure you get it sprayed even..we usually do 50/50 crosshatch like mentioned before

as for finish, it is pretty damn slick..not mud slick, but kinda as you would feel on a finished(painted) wall with about a 1/2" nap cover...once paint is applied, you can't tell there is a "nappy" finish...kinda like the texture of an eggshell...not the sheen

better make sure you got your finish on point too because it don't touch up too well but can be if a painter knows how to spot prime right

that being said, I can get almost as good of coverage with a topping compound..material is cheaper and it can be sanded..but to get the thickness coverage of the sprayplast with mud, you got to know how to spay it..or it takes practice I should say


----------



## Soultear (Sep 4, 2011)

Bill from Indy said:


> we use sprayplast a lot in medical buildings here..75% of the time, the contract goes to painter but we do some too..to me, it is about the best material you can use for L5...it won't sand hardly at all, so make sure you get it sprayed even..we usually do 50/50 crosshatch like mentioned before
> 
> as for finish, it is pretty damn slick..not mud slick, but kinda as you would feel on a finished(painted) wall with about a 1/2" nap cover...once paint is applied, you can't tell there is a "nappy" finish...kinda like the texture of an eggshell...not the sheen
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. Just like anything trail and error. Like what I do before I texture I will do some samples on a sheet of drywall to let owners pick on what type of texture "look" they want. I think practicing on a couple sheets of drywall is "money well spent".

I will have to see if the suppliers up here in Canuckle land Edmonton can actually order the stuff. The last big project I saw that needed a perfect finish due to dome lighting was at West ED Mall. Had alot of footage to do and it was a spray roll finish. Something had to be done for the volume.

Good to know there are options, I have been doing this for 20 years and I am still learning little tricks of the trade. Gotta love it.


----------



## Bill from Indy (Apr 26, 2010)

here is a pdf on the product and has contact info on it
http://www.twiproducts.com/images/pdfs/spec/sprayplast.pdf

i see now they have it in a tote..we used to get 5's or 55's..it takes a pretty big sprayer...27 is the smallest I would recommend on tip..i use a 27 or 31..27 works better for crosshatching.

if you can get usg products, they make one called tuf hide and it is similar but not as good


----------



## eazyrizla (Jul 29, 2010)

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 4 characters.


----------



## igorson (Nov 10, 2010)

Level 5 only sounds great but in reall life it is tough to sand after, about 50% more work.


----------



## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

It shouldn't be hard to sand man...
You're just putting a tight skim over everything. Just enough to give a smooth texture. Mud on, then wipe tight.


----------



## OliverKBell (Mar 31, 2012)

We always complete a level 5 by a 14" knife.....always have always will........it just works and sanding is extremely minimal being as there arent any lap lines or texture to the surface of the mud...... by sanding it we are actually putting groves and making more dust in our level five, which isnt preferable.


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

igorson said:


> Level 5 only sounds great but in reall life it is tough to sand after, about 50% more work.


 Not sure where your coning from Igor..If it's rolled n wiped with the right mud there should be very little sanding If any at all.but then why mud the entire sheet?? If i leave the painter a good finish and he puts on a primer sealer coat before paint then why mud the entire sheet? The prime/paint should be the 5th level ...IMO! I charge .30 sq ft for shure coating so if they want to pay me for doing the painters job....Fine...:yes:


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

I will agree on that one. A GOOD painter can take a GOOD drywall job and turn out a GREAT end result. A full skim is only necessary in light critical areas, and youd better have perfect framing and hanging from the get go:yes:. One way to guarantee the painter does a good job is to start painting it myself:whistling2:. We have been doing more and more paintin these days and some painters have heard about it, now they make sure and do a great job


----------



## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

chris said:


> I will agree on that one. A GOOD painter can take a GOOD drywall job and turn out a GREAT end result. A full skim is only necessary in light critical areas, and youd better have perfect framing and hanging from the get go:yes:. One way to guarantee the painter does a good job is to start painting it myself:whistling2:. We have been doing more and more paintin these days and some painters have heard about it, now they make sure and do a great job


Is there such a thing as a good painter, maybe I should start painting my own work.

have been doing town houses past 2 weeks (row housing). idiot painter painted a unit before we were done. When I walked in on him, he started blabbing that he sanded KD spray from top angles, and that he had done me a favour .(we don't do the KD). So now I owed him, and now had to fix everything he found. tried explaining that we were not done, which he did not seem to understand. So I asked him if he could get a women half pregnant. Which started the screaming match.......

Hours later, Job Super gave ok to back charge, and to go back and fix. I sent 2bjr, but then painter tells him if next unit is not done over holiday weekend, he was going to paint that one too,,,, weather it was done or not.....

yesterday,,,, Dwc calls and says the painter has a problem in 1st unit, needs A TOUCH UP DONE !!!!! head over to unit, Huge F'n screaming match ensues again, well the whole jobsite comes to a stop to listen in and anticipate the fist fight to begin. Near the end of the arguement, the F'n $%^&^&*$%%$^%[email protected]*#*&@&^ painter said he was going to back charge me for rough work:blink:








Where do these idiot painters come from


----------



## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

Painters are gettin worse and worse these days. Dont get me wrong there are alot of good painters out there theres just so many bad ones too. It comes down to money. They figure they can save a lil here and a lil there and can point fingers when lil things show here and there:blink:. I know for a fact I have left some shtty work in the past:whistling2: and come back and see it looked GREAT:yes:. Its amazing how far puttin a lil more work into the paint finish ( allotta prime and paint BACKROLLED on prime coat). We will be texturing a small addition tomorrow and I will also be painting it too.Trim,doors and new drywall,she also has a few things inside to paint... Will end up painting most of the interior I can see it now:thumbsup:. Its not bad,easy work


----------



## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Is there such a thing as a good painter, maybe I should start painting my own work.
> 
> have been doing town houses past 2 weeks (row housing). idiot painter painted a unit before we were done. When I walked in on him, he started blabbing that he sanded KD spray from top angles, and that he had done me a favour .(we don't do the KD). So now I owed him, and now had to fix everything he found. tried explaining that we were not done, which he did not seem to understand. So I asked him if he could get a women half pregnant. Which started the screaming match.......
> 
> ...


 I would have paid to be a fly on the wall! Sounds like that painters hurting for work If he's in that big a hurry..Wonder why:whistling2:??


----------

