# Butt taper?



## Durabond-Don

I have in my head over the years, always wondered if there was a way to make a butt joint easier to do. Such as maybe taking the hump out or making a tool that would create tapered joint.



I guess someone has adopted my idea. I am very skeptical of this thing. 

Have any of you ever tried this or heard of it? Impressions please.

http://www.butttaper.com/video.htm


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## silverstilts

I think if one is going to go through all the work of putting in backers ( butt sticks ) you may as well add some shims on them and forget the idea of wetting and forming a recessed seam with this tool . Butt sticks in themselves will more than recess the seams .. I would think if you wet the paper too much you may create some issues.... and i still believe that a seam not taped is sooner or later going to crack even if it is a hairline crack , don't think i would want to go back and repair a whole home for something that didn't work ..


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## Muddauber

silverstilts said:


> I think if one is going to go through all the work of putting in backers ( butt sticks ) you may as well add some shims on them and forget the idea of wetting and forming a recessed seam with this tool . Butt sticks in themselves will more than recess the seams .. I would think if you wet the paper too much you may create some issues.... and i still believe that a seam not taped is sooner or later going to crack even if it is a hairline crack , don't think i would want to go back and repair a whole home for something that didn't work ..



I agree Silver.

Looks like a lot of work to me for a butt, and I wouldn't be to keen on crushing the joint either.


No tape? No way!

Besides, I don't think that butts are that big of an issue when using the boxes.


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## Kiwiman

I agree with "old silver":yes: The butt taper will not create a recess for the tape like shims do, you'd still have to treat it as a normal butt join when finishing it. There could a legal issue here with the patent because mother nature invented the butt taper a long time before drywall was invented....Otherwise your ar$e would slam shut everytime you passed a pinecone.


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## [email protected]

:lol::lol: Looks like a BIG PITD to me. Lotta work for butts that we honestly don't really have that much trouble with in the first place. And if I was to use a backer for butts, I'd probably whack 10' 25 ga. studs in half to 5' and use with the rolled edges as my shims. Zero moisture content. Time to make -- 30 seconds per two butt boards, two cuts with tin snips and a snap. And wetting rock and then crushing the edge as shown is bound to void the rock manufacturers "warranty", besides adding even a drop of unneeded moisture would be foolish. And yep, Don, I thought of this 15 years ago and realized it to be unworkable then and it still is. Besides, a true tapered edge has paper rolled over and under for a reason. 

Look for us to be fixing these butts done by DIY tool junkies in 2010.


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## Durabond-Don

silverstilts said:


> I think if one is going to go through all the work of putting in backers ( butt sticks ) you may as well add some shims on them and forget the idea of wetting and forming a recessed seam with this tool . Butt sticks in themselves will more than recess the seams .. I would think if you wet the paper too much you may create some issues.... and i still believe that a seam not taped is sooner or later going to crack even if it is a hairline crack , don't think i would want to go back and repair a whole home for something that didn't work ..


 
I'm with you. No tape is crazy. It will crack, especially if it is near a slamming door, ceiling that's walked on above, or any type of settling of the structure.

Plus, I just did a room that had well over 60 butts. Doing that room this guys way would be a big hassle.

And he is selling that thing for like $180? lol I hope he don't get rich with that thing.


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## rhardman

His method is similar to patching a crack in plaster or stucco. You can chisel out the crack, brush in a "bonding agent" * (elmer's glue) and then fill the crack with the appropriate mud and sponge it smooth. It holds great (in stucco or plaster).

But wetting the paper and compacting the gypsum looks like (at least) a blister in the making...

*The old guys call bonding agent, "Moose Milk."


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## Whitey97

Add me to the list of "never wanting to try this"

I like the v idea, and actually do that with a utility knife when there's chunks in my butt (<- ha ha I love saying that) anyways, a not needed tool and just another thing to carry around that's never going to be used.


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## [email protected]

All this time I thought V-grooving butts was standard.


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## silverstilts

I never V groove either unless it is necessary , and on repair jobs where the butts were not prefilled .... really no need unless the butt is all fk up..


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## [email protected]

Maybe our definitions differ. By V-groove I mean that I peel the fuzz off the factory face of the butt, maybe 1/8" at most. This requires a very sharp clean knife blade. The factory shear leaves a fairly rough edge to the paper that tends to stand up. Of course, I might be a bit particular about the appearance of my hanging. My tapers always seemed to prefer this over the alternative.


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## Whitey97

I understand what you're saying and I do this on about 50% of the butt's. It's extremely anal in my opinion but then again, that's how I work and why I have work!


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## [email protected]

I also rasp virtually every cut(also anal) and peel the resulting fuzz. I've done it that way so long, it's a habit. Those "dog nuts" are plain ugly and keep the rock from going up tight against the other piece. And today's rock just doesn't break as cleanly as it did 10 or so years ago. 
That's also one of the first things I look for on a newly hired hanger, whether or not he had a rasp and if he used it. And what type of and condition of his hammer.


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## Whitey97

Darren, you might even be more judgemental than me!


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## [email protected]

Maybe.....I went through well over 100 "hangers" in the first five years of business. I quickly lost patience with new hires and their BS. Pretty much heard it all. Could write a two volume set on it. We could probably do a whole neverending thread on FNGs.


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## Taped Crusader

New to the site here. How long has the "butt taper" been on the market? I can't imagine anyone actually using that thing. Most of the products that come out that are supposed to make our jobs easier at least boast saving a step. I think the "butt taper" actually adds a few. Think I'd rather fill the seam with peanut butter than use that product.


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## Kiwiman

I prefer to slice a "V". My theory is the hot mud helps bind/glue the end of the sheets together, and then sheetrock meshtape (with hot mud)...never had a problem, I used to do the same but with papertape and would get the odd crack in more extreme conditions/areas... I'm not trying to start a Mesh v paper debate, been there done that. :boxing:


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## Whitey97

yeah I think there's about 5 threads on that alone. Ha


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## Bevelation

Butt taper looks like it adds time, both to the hanger and the taper.

Ditch hot mud. A taper's objective is to make his work "look" flat, not "be" flat.
That's the reason I use trowels for butts and not broad knives.

If a HO paid me to have true flat walls, ordering custom length board would be my suggestion.


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## Custom Drywall Svc.

Bevelation said:


> ...A taper's objective is to make his work "look" flat, not "be" flat...



you know, seriously haha......although what im about to say has nothing really to do with this thread, i cant agree more, especially when dealing with stupid homeowners....we should all keep this in our minds that us drywall contractors do NOT and CANNOT make walls/clngs 'flat'....all we do is try to VISIBLY make them appear as 'flat as possible' with the material we are given....i.e., sectioned wall board.

although what i just said is by no means a revelation to any of us, hahha.....i just feel it does need to be stressed and kept in our heads so to speak, so we can regurgitate this to picky, pesky homeowners who are under the impression that a drywall contractors job is to make walls flat -- no!

like Bevelation said, if they wanted flat walls, they would have to order custom made panels, period.....which......nobody will do.


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## rebel20

hey guys I feel you need to get up to par we have a tool here that puts a 45° and 23° angle on the butt joint has 2 blades first one cuts the 45 second cuts the 23° then of course our tapeless mud and wala 4" butt joint when board is hung right.


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## kgphoto

*Try it, you will like it. *

Seriously, I have tried the Butt-Taper and it works very well. I build sets for photographic and video crews to create how-to videos for construction. I have had the opportunity to do joints with paper tape, mesh tape and the Butt-Taper with no tape. After weeks of filming, I get to tear apart the sets. I found I couldn't crack these seams, until the board itself broke. I have used it on several residential jobs too, and no cracks so far there either.

It is actually a misnomer to say "no tape" as the binding tool is the OSB strip behind it. Much closer screw spacing, hot mud and that stiffness, is what makes it work. If you use General Purpose mud, you DO have to use tape.

While there are several devices/systems out there for creating flat butt seams, this tool is the only one that works on patches as well. It cuts down on mud used and dry time, in the same way the mud-on beads do.

It only cost $140, until All Wall started carrying it. Since the other systems have more expensive disposables, this becomes cost effective very quickly.

While it is true, that most of the time we avoid butt joints by using longer boards, it really is nice to have a truly flat wall when you are setting the cabinets and counters to it.

KG


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## MIKE FROM NH

Hey Guys, I'm Mike from NH. Drywall company owner a taper BFD! 

The BT is a PITA!!! As Kirk know's- he and I have debated it in the JLC forum and on the phone numerous times. Buttom line, Steve the inventer sent me one, almost 4yrs ago. I used it on a 40-8' sheet beach house renovation. Did eveything but run 2 rows of screws on each side of the butt joint, so 4 rows total. I still had 20+ screws per butt joint. This caused me 2 f'ckin call backs on a job 60 miles away!!! So stay away from it! Too many steps, frig one up get a call back. Further adding water is potentally a libility issue. Make walls "look" flat, because making them flat is not a drywallers responsibility, even a L5 will not make walls flat. A L4 w/flat paint is good enough.


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## kgphoto

In fairness, It is true that Mike does not like it. He had one job that he used it on, and it didn't turn out well for him. I have used it on several jobs, both full butt joints and patches and it works well for me. No cracking at all yet, no call backs on these joints at all.

We have gone back and forth on JLC and I and many others still like the tool and it works well for us. I don't sell the tool or get any money for making my recommendation. It works well for me, that is all I can say.

There is a money back guarantee, so try it you may like it. If not, send it back. I think you will like it, Mike does not.


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## A+ Texture LLC

Your posts read like commercials.


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## kgphoto

Just calling it like I see it.


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## MIKE FROM NH

See Kirk I'm the only one who thinks the BT is a waste of time, too many steps, and not a smart idea to add water and "crush" the drywall. Also I agree that you do sound like a commercial alot of the time...oh and I'm just calling it the way I see it...


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## silverstilts

MIKE FROM NH said:


> See Kirk I'm the only one who thinks the BT is a waste of time, too many steps, and not a smart idea to add water and "crush" the drywall. Also I agree that you do sound like a commercial alot of the time...oh and I'm just calling it the way I see it...


 I think a lot of us think it is a waste of time. If you have a lot of time on your hands to hand tape with the butt taper try to do a 400 sheet house sometime. Then guarantee the work after you soak down the rock and it finally dries out down the road wonder what those butts look like then? If you want a recessed butt you should use butt sticks and do it right.


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## kgphoto

silverstilts said:


> I think a lot of us think it is a waste of time. If you have a lot of time on your hands to hand tape with the butt taper try to do a 400 sheet house sometime. Then guarantee the work after you soak down the rock and it finally dries out down the road wonder what those butts look like then? If you want a recessed butt you should use butt sticks and do it right.


Like I said, try it, you may like it. Then you would see that the joints are smooth and flat, no cracking and it didn't take very long at all to do. Since you use less mud to fill the joint and feather it, any drying time is covered by the drying time of the mud and the additional time saved by less deep coating and less mud volume overall.

Go ahead and knock what you don't know if it makes you feel good. Sure Mike doesn't like it. I won't argue that point. Apparently very few posters here have tried it. What Mike fails to be able to let go of, is that many other people do use the tool and like it very much, regardless of his limited experience with this particular tool.

I am sure you realize that there aren't that many butt joints on a 400 sheet house, unless you plan it that way. So again, it is not so much time to do and it makes a stronger, flatter crack free joint.

KG

P.S. Don't take my word for it. Try it, you may like it. :thumbsup:


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## Capt-sheetrock

Add me to the list that thinks its a terrible waste of time, and an inferior way of getting a realitively easy job done in a long, boring and harder fashion


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## A+ Texture LLC

You just sounded like a commercial again. You smell fishy my friend.


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## kgphoto

If listing the salient points is sounding like a commercial, then I am guilty. 

I will once again stipulate that I am not a partner in that tools sales or production and receive no compensation for my opinion.

I think we can all decide for ourselves if something is attractive to us. It seems silly for someone to denegrate something they have no experience with. Go to the website and see it for yourself. If you don't want to try it, don't. Not a big deal.

If you try it and it works well, you are ahead of the game. If it doesn't, then send it back. Not a big deal either. I have talked with the inventor, he doesn't get many returns. I know it is a tough sell to the crews in my area, as they are definitely a blow and go mentality.


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## silverstilts

With the way framing is done now days I would not trust a piece of what, a one inch piece of tape bonding two pieces of rock together ( it may be ok for the stupid little walls you put together then tear apart what kind of a comparison is that to a $750,000 and above home or a much larger commercial job?) It is a gimmick for the inexperienced tapers , and 400 sheets not many butts to do ? how do you figure on that ? Yes it was hung on the most part correct . Don't you think if it was such a great product all the tapers would be using them it has nothing to do with not wanting to try it, it has everything to do with the outcome of the final product/quality & durability.


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## Capt-sheetrock

Some of us have been doing drywall long enough to spot a homeowner gimmick when we see it

Heres a salient point,,, learn how to finish a butt joint


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## kgphoto

silverstilts said:


> With the way framing is done now days I would not trust a piece of what, a one inch piece of tape bonding two pieces of rock together ( it may be ok for the stupid little walls you put together then tear apart what kind of a comparison is that to a $750,000 and above home or a much larger commercial job?) It is a gimmick for the inexperienced tapers , and 400 sheets not many butts to do ? how do you figure on that ? Yes it was hung on the most part correct . Don't you think if it was such a great product all the tapers would be using them it has nothing to do with not wanting to try it, it has everything to do with the outcome of the final product/quality & durability.


Clearly you don't understand the system we are talking about. The bond is not made by the one inch( actually 1 inch) tape, but the backer behind.

This is my point. How can you denigrate something you know nothing about? The way you describe it, of course it won't work! Be informed.

The system is this: Don't land your butt ends on a stud. We all know they are warped and twist and only 1.5 inches wide. Instead your ends land between the studs and a 4 inch wide of 5/8 inch thick ( or better - I prefer 3/4 Ply myself) OSB is screwed to the first piece. 

Second piece takes off from there. Screws are placed 3 inches apart on both sides and the seam sprayed with a pump sprayer or wiped with a sponge. Sprayer is much faster. 

Roll the joint with the wheel tool and then apply hot mud. No tape needed if you use hot mud. If you are going to use GP, then use the 1/2 tape. You don't have to wait for the seam to dry before you start mudding.

Watch the video if you can't picture what I am saying.

While I have used them on the set wall that I have built and then torn apart which clearly are subject to greater stresses than most homes, I have also used it on several residential jobs too. Here in CA, a $750K is more common than you think. My point on the set walls, was that during demollition, the seams didn't break or crack before the walls themselves. Pretty tough joint in my book.

In my area, most tapers and hangers are pretty set in their ways and from south of the boarder and paid by the piece. They don't read JLC or go to trade shows or do anything to expand their knowledge. Even though we have wet and stick approved fire tape, it is all paper taped with mud. So I am not too surprised by their reluctance to try something new. Look at the response here. And you guys actually care about your work.


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## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> In my area, most tapers and hangers are pretty set in their ways and from south of the boarder and paid by the piece. They don't read JLC or go to trade shows or do anything to expand their knowledge. Even though we have wet and stick approved fire tape, it is all paper taped with mud. So I am not too surprised by their reluctance to try something new. Look at the response here. And you guys actually care about your work.


Paper tape and mud are code approved for fire taping, its faster and way cheaper than wet and stick (isn't that another homeowner gadget??) I use paper tape and AP for fire taping ,,,, and I'm north of the border (born here)

Are you insinuating that since we don't use the gadgets you like, we don't care about our work????


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## kgphoto

Not at all. I am talking about a proprietary fire tape of which you appear to be unfamiliar with. Not the standard peel and stick tape which you know for our previous posts, that I think is junk. Take a look in the latest issue of Walls and Ceilings magazine to see what I am referencing.


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## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> Not at all. I am talking about a proprietary fire tape of which you appear to be unfamiliar with. Not the standard peel and stick tape which you know for our previous posts, that I think is junk. Take a look in the latest issue of Walls and Ceilings magazine to see what I am referencing.


I'll check it out, haven't heard of it yet,,, still can't see where it could be fastr than fire taping with a banjo,,,, but I will take a peek


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## MIKE FROM NH

kgphoto said:


> Clearly you don't understand the system we are talking about. The bond is not made by the one inch( actually 1 inch) tape, but the backer behind.
> 
> This is my point. How can you denigrate something you know nothing about? The way you describe it, of course it won't work! Be informed.
> 
> The system is this: Don't land your butt ends on a stud. We all know they are warped and twist and only 1.5 inches wide. Instead your ends land between the studs and a 4 inch wide of 5/8 inch thick ( or better - I prefer 3/4 Ply myself) OSB is screwed to the first piece.
> 
> Second piece takes off from there. Screws are placed 3 inches apart on both sides and the seam sprayed with a pump sprayer or wiped with a sponge. Sprayer is much faster.
> 
> Roll the joint with the wheel tool and then apply hot mud. No tape needed if you use hot mud. If you are going to use GP, then use the 1/2 tape. You don't have to wait for the seam to dry before you start mudding.
> 
> Watch the video if you can't picture what I am saying.
> 
> While I have used them on the set wall that I have built and then torn apart which clearly are subject to greater stresses than most homes, I have also used it on several residential jobs too. Here in CA, a $750K is more common than you think. My point on the set walls, was that during demollition, the seams didn't break or crack before the walls themselves. Pretty tough joint in my book.
> 
> In my area, most tapers and hangers are pretty set in their ways and from south of the boarder and paid by the piece. They don't read JLC or go to trade shows or do anything to expand their knowledge. Even though we have wet and stick approved fire tape, it is all paper taped with mud. So I am not too surprised by their reluctance to try something new. Look at the response here. And you guys actually care about your work.


 
OK Kirk, what I don't get is that your willing to add like 5 steps to finishing a butt joint all for what, extra few bucks? I agree with back blocking- which itself would drastically reduce cracks. Where I disagree with you is the use of a $180+/- tool that requires so many steps that involves wetting and crushing the drywall. I can speak from experiance that its a worthless tool that has to be used just right or else call backs. Since I had 2 caused by the use of this tool I will never use it again.


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## silverstilts

kgphoto said:


> Clearly you don't understand the system we are talking about. The bond is not made by the one inch( actually 1 inch) tape, but the backer behind.
> 
> This is my point. How can you denigrate something you know nothing about? The way you describe it, of course it won't work! Be informed.
> 
> The system is this: Don't land your butt ends on a stud. We all know they are warped and twist and only 1.5 inches wide. Instead your ends land between the studs and a 4 inch wide of 5/8 inch thick ( or better - I prefer 3/4 Ply myself) OSB is screwed to the first piece.
> 
> Second piece takes off from there. Screws are placed 3 inches apart on both sides and the seam sprayed with a pump sprayer or wiped with a sponge. Sprayer is much faster.
> 
> Roll the joint with the wheel tool and then apply hot mud. No tape needed if you use hot mud. If you are going to use GP, then use the 1/2 tape. You don't have to wait for the seam to dry before you start mudding.
> 
> Watch the video if you can't picture what I am saying.
> 
> While I have used them on the set wall that I have built and then torn apart which clearly are subject to greater stresses than most homes, I have also used it on several residential jobs too. Here in CA, a $750K is more common than you think. My point on the set walls, was that during demollition, the seams didn't break or crack before the walls themselves. Pretty tough joint in my book.
> 
> In my area, most tapers and hangers are pretty set in their ways and from south of the boarder and paid by the piece. They don't read JLC or go to trade shows or do anything to expand their knowledge. Even though we have wet and stick approved fire tape, it is all paper taped with mud. So I am not too surprised by their reluctance to try something new. Look at the response here. And you guys actually care about your work.


 Well if you are using a backer board make it a butt stick and do it right. It is still no matter what you say something for a do it yourself-er nuff said


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## [email protected]

The moisture and crushing the joint will void whatever warranty manufacturer's still have. Still maintain that the low occurrence of butt crack call back does not justify another gadget. Sorry, don't feel like reinventing the wheel. And try about any new tool or product once. This one just sounds like a PITA. Show me an endorsement by a major manufacturer of board and will give it a second look... Not.


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## kgphoto

MIKE FROM NH said:


> OK Kirk, what I don't get is that your willing to add like 5 steps to finishing a butt joint all for what, extra few bucks? I agree with back blocking- which itself would drastically reduce cracks. Where I disagree with you is the use of a $180+/- tool that requires so many steps that involves wetting and crushing the drywall. I can speak from experiance that its a worthless tool that has to be used just right or else call backs. Since I had 2 caused by the use of this tool I will never use it again.


This tool typically saves a day of labor, so not a few bucks, along with material savings. It also eases the installation of counter tops and cabinets, so another savings or increased quality of another job.

Mike I get that you don't like it. You have made that clear. Any reason you feel to keep making the same point? I, at least, make different points or answer different questions.

I haven't had the problems you have had with the tool. I don't know anyone else who has. Doing it "just right" seems easy to me.

Perhaps adding the new Vario mud would make your work with this tool, more successful.


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## kgphoto

*There are more things in heavan and earth than are dreamt of in your philosphy . . .*



silverstilts said:


> Well if you are using a backer board make it a butt stick and do it right. It is still no matter what you say something for a do it yourself-er nuff said



Apparently not. See:

http://www.butttaper.com/testimonials.htm

Many builders and customers are using engineered studs or metal studs and mud applied beads to get squarer corners and flatter walls in specific rooms or the whole house. You owe it to yourself to be aware and practiced with these techniques so you can differentiate yourself from your competition. 

Anything that saves time and money and increases quality can make you more competitive with those who hire illegals and pay them peanuts.


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## kgphoto

[email protected] said:


> The moisture and crushing the joint will void whatever warranty manufacturer's still have. Still maintain that the low occurrence of butt crack call back does not justify another gadget. Sorry, don't feel like reinventing the wheel. And try about any new tool or product once. This one just sounds like a PITA. Show me an endorsement by a major manufacturer of board and will give it a second look... Not.


How's this?

http://www.butttaper.com/nahb.htm

Also, it is not just the lack of cracking. That is only mentioned due to people's concern about wetting and forming the taper, but the flatter, smoother walls. No humps and bumps for baseboard, chair rail, counter tops, crown molding and cabinets.


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## [email protected]

Still no board manufacturer's blessing. Every testimonial was to a single drywall contractor, some admitted being asked to write the letter. The guy did lousy butt joints without the miracle tool. My finishers don't leave their butts humped. Supply and demand....no demand, from me anyway. Never heard of NAHB testing either.


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## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> You owe it to yourself to be aware and practiced with these techniques so you can differentiate yourself from your competition.


You owe it to yourself to learn what your talking about so you can quit embrassing yourself in front of poeple that do


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## kgphoto

Capt-sheetrock said:


> You owe it to yourself to learn what your talking about so you can quit embrassing yourself in front of poeple that do


I call BS on that one. Grow or be left behind. Try reading a book called, Who Moved My Cheese."

Quote:

"[email protected] Still no board manufacturer's blessing. Every testimonial was to a single drywall contractor, some admitted being asked to write the letter. The guy did lousy butt joints without the miracle tool. My finishers don't leave their butts humped. Supply and demand....no demand, from me anyway. Never heard of NAHB testing either. "

Your lack of awareness does not diminish their existence.


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## [email protected]

Still no board manufacturer will endorse this product. Areyou going to chide them for their being "unaware" too? 

Butt joints don't generally fall in my kitchen or bath walls either.

If I truly am worried about butts, I use scrap steel studs, the corner fold acts as the shim and leaves the seam lower than the field. Cost about $1.50 per joint. Used this method last month on some long hallway walls. It turned out perfect.

Not too much more to be said on the subject. We have another entire thread somewhere on butt boards.


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## silverstilts

You talk about strength , I am sure it is not the tape holding it together. A screw every 3" on a backer board (plywood) heck nothing would crack under those circumstances, that is 17 screws on every edge...34 per butt (how many extra boxes of screws would you go through on a 20,000' job) you will never save enough time installing board this way to justify the saving on the taping. Use butt sticks or glue , or become a professional and just learn how to fill a butt joint. What next recess where the corner bead goes ? You talk about how flat you can make them what about the rest of the framing? Show me a job that is perfectly flat you will never find one whether it is done with dimensional lumber , steel or engineered studs you will just not find one. You talk about where cabinets, base, or whatever meet the butts does not matter, you ever look at a wall where the counter top meets up with it ? Most times they have to scribe them to make them fit tight nothing to do with the butt joints but the framing. Get a life and quit promoting a piece of crap. Maybe you should just go do a infomercial because that's where this tool belongs along with all the other garbage out there that claims to make your life easy. Just a bunch of B.S. People are gullible but most professionals at their trades know what works and what will not.


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## [email protected]

Silver, exactly. Bet he ran out of fans at JLC too.

Anybody who has that much trouble with butt joints probably can't finish a carton of milk.


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## MIKE FROM NH

Kirk, 

Looks like your taking some serious hits for your unconditional loyality for the BT. I'm convinced that your too thick headed to accept any other viewpoint then your own. And I'm done trying to help you see the forest through the trees. Its unbelieveable to what extent you'll go to make your point further "clear, and to justify yourself. To a point that the late Billy Mays would be proud. Continue to use what works for you, companies need people like you to buy their high priced products. While the rest of us will stick to what has proven to work.


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## kgphoto

[email protected] said:


> Still no board manufacturer will endorse this product. Are you going to chide them for their being "unaware" too?
> 
> If I truly am worried about butts, I use scrap steel studs, the corner fold acts as the shim and leaves the seam lower than the field. Cost about $1.50 per joint. Used this method last month on some long hallway walls. It turned out perfect.


Nah. I am going to chide you for being such a moron to think a MFG is going to jump into this forum discussion on New Year's Eve.

So clearly you recognize the need to for butt blocking ( by your own admission above), just don't agree that this is a good way to do it. Fine. Let's agree to disagree.






silverstilts said:


> You talk about strength , I am sure it is not the tape holding it together. A screw every 3" on a backer board (plywood) heck nothing would crack under those circumstances, that is 17 screws on every edge...34 per butt (how many extra boxes of screws would you go through on a 20,000' job) you will never save enough time installing board this way to justify the saving on the taping.
> 
> What next recess where the corner bead goes ? You talk about how flat you can make them what about the rest of the framing?
> 
> ". . . you ever look at a wall where the counter top meets up with it ? Most times they have to scribe them to make them fit tight nothing to do with the butt joints but the framing.
> 
> Get a life and quit promoting a piece of crap.


Again you are talking out your a**. You are exaggerating the amount of screws and have no idea what it takes to actually do this. It is saving time, mud, and increasing quality. If you don't think it is necessary on YOUR jobs, so be it. Darren obviously thinks its important on some of his jobs. You don't have that many butts on a job, if you plan it well. We all know to minimize them wherever possible.

Scribing is a fact of life, and if often a result of mud build up. My walls are pretty flat even without engineered lumber or steel studs. I prefer wood as I more comfortable with it when it comes time to mount the cabinets. I also mostly use 5/8 rather than 1/2 on walls, so that helps too. Regardless, the flatter the wall, the better the fit even after the scribe as there is no wavy line for the counter to follow.

I am not promoting this product, I am answering questions and correcting the hyperbole from posters like you.




MIKE FROM NH said:


> Kirk,
> 
> Looks like your taking some serious hits for your unconditional loyality for the BT. I'm convinced that your too thick headed to accept any other viewpoint then your own. And I'm done trying to help you see the forest through the trees. Its unbelieveable to what extent you'll go to make your point further "clear, and to justify yourself. To a point that the late Billy Mays would be proud. Continue to use what works for you, companies need people like you to buy their high priced products. While the rest of us will stick to what has proven to work.


Mike,

It is not unconditional loyalty. I use it when it is necessary. I recognize it for it's strengths. I have acknowledged other methods in this thread and others, such as the track method. I don't find track laying around my jobs, I do find plywood. If most of what you do is stand up, you may never need this tool, or any of these types of tools.

If one or two "individuals" get their panties in a bunch over a different way of doing something, to the point that they denigrate another person's approach or even outright insult them, that is on them. They could just say, this isn't for them, but they will not stop there.

Remember, I am speaking from my experience of using this tool. So are you. The other two guys haven't even tried it. I don't insult their methods, only their misstatements on something that they haven't even used.

We all takes hits for our positions, even you: "No it's not! And you are a grumpus!"


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## silverstilts

You think that i don't know what I am doing ? It called for screws every 3" that's a lot of screws in my book and not that many but seams in a 20,000 ft job where do you figure ? do you by sheetrock in 20' lengths or something? I think you should take your bias opinions and well you can imagine just where to place them. Don't see any intelligent posts from you other than the butt taper big deal just a bunch of hype in my book, move on.... enough of this BS crap. No more replies from me on the subject ....Thank god huh? What ever works for you works for you we all have our opinions let's just not try to cram them down each others throats .


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## rhardman

*I hear my first response was way too rough...*

KG,
Quoting your statements:

To Darren:
"...I am going to chide you for being such a moron to think a MFG is going to jump into this forum discussion on New Year's Eve. "

and...

To Silverstilts:
"Again you are talking out your a**..." 

I find your addition of personal insults to be less than appropriate.

Rick

Lord knows Silver is honest with his evaluations..._though rarely gentle_. 
I still have a bruise or two.:bangin:


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## kgphoto

Each of us is entitled to their own opinion. They chided my arguments, I chided theirs. I stand by my comments, as I am sure they stand by theirs. I held back before choosing those words, but won't play revisionist history by pretending I didn't say them, for better or for worse.

Why it is that they can insult me with impunity and only my retaliation comes under your ire, is beyond me. 

Maybe with time, a response from a manufacture could be obtained, either for or against, but to offer, as an argument, that it hasn't appeared in one day over the New Year's holiday, is asinine. So is misstating procedures and principals to make a point. I have simply stated facts, and my direct experience with a tool. I offered substantiated information to back all my points.

In fact, if you recall, the only thing I said at the beginning was, "Try it, you may like it." That is when the belittling started by others.


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## [email protected]

Kg, Realize that this is a site for Drywall pros. You have heard now from several of us. I see from your profile that you are a general remodeler. Maybe as such, your drywall skills make this tool necessary for you. For most of us, it's another piece of junk in the barn, an overpriced gadget. 

And you know why board manufacturers won't endorse it? Because it's a bad idea to crush the core of the board. It affects the structural integrity of the wall assembly. The board may only be paper and gypsum to you, but to us, it's an issue of liabilty and of reputation. The manufacturers' and ours. USG goes back about a hundred years, and if they are not ALREADY endorsing it, they probably do not plan to fo so anytime soon.

This will be my last on the subject.


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## rhardman

*"Why it is that they can insult me with impunity and only my retaliation comes under your ire, is beyond me. "*

Looks like that was directed toward me; fair enough...

I responded the way I did as I have found the input by Darren and Silver to always be fair, honest and to the point of which I respect. While I more than admire any new idea, I typically try to stay out of discussions where I may not agree with a product. But I don't sit back when "my people"* are insulted.

While I may not be as patient as I could be...I am ALWAYS loyal! :boxing:

No apology, your wording was less than appropriate.

Rick
* "my people" being knowledgable drywall professionals. *This is especially the case with Darren and Silver.*


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## kgphoto

Rick,

I certainly wouldn't argue the point that Darren and Silver are experienced in their field. As you notice, my comments were directed at their arguments, not their qualifications.

I could have made my points with more tact, but I was tired of being the only one.

Why you feel the need to step in to help your people, is still beyond me. I think they are big enough boys to take care of themselves. I think I too, was always being fair, honest and to the point.

Darren,

I don't presume to know why, or if, any mfg has come out with any position. I don't know if they have even been asked.

What I do know is it is common practice to wet drywall to form a bend. It is also common practice to make a series of cuts to bend tighter curves. This is a surface treatment, not a structural item. 

Why you are so concerned about a fully supported joint having a little water and reforming done to it that is also additionally supported less than 12 inches away, is peculiar. Use common sense and I don't think you need to worry about it any more.

Even though you won't participate any more in this discussion, I will be talking with the USG rep and see if they have any opinion to share on this topic. I don't expect to hear from them right away, so don't hold your breath or count the days. 

Oh one other piece of info, if you are going to use this technique in a fire rated assembly, you will need to use either steel track or fire rated plywood strips and get approval from your local code authority.


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## [email protected]

Thank you kg. The next time I build a rated wall, I will pm you instead of consulting the code book or the blueprint.


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## kgphoto

OOOHH He's back! With sarcasm, no less. Well I guess we can't take him at his word either. :jester: 

Actually, you would be hard pressed to find it in both places. The book will have only assemblies and it is unlikely the architect who drew the plans is familiar with this as well. That is why I made the suggestion as well.


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## johnnydrywall

I have not even seen this gadget, but I already think it is a waste of time. most boardmen are paid piecework, so if they have to use this tool on every butt joint, the job time will probably double.
99% of stick framing are not straight anyways, cabinet installers will tell you this and know how to remedy it.
If you use a trowel, you'll get a pretty straight wall.
If someone is that worried about a slight bump in the wall, then what about outside corners?


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## silverstilts

This post has just cooled down lets not get it all stirred up again.


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## kgphoto

No need to get stirred up. He asked a valid question and had a valid comment.

True, most piece work guys just want to blow and go. They don't make money unless they are hanging board. Often they won't be finishing the joints anyway. They will have tapers come in and do that. Let's be real, it is not that hard to feather out a butt joint using normal materials. There will be a slight hump, but it will be camouflaged. It is only if you really care about needing the wall flat, that you will want to use this tool or any of the other tools.

As far as outside corners, the mud on corner beads by No-Coat and Stait--Flex will provide lower profiles. It is not as important for cabinets there, as rarely do cabinets get run all the way an outside corner. They are mostly held back so that people won't bump their heads on the cabinet. Soffets are a different story, and that is usually handled by moldings.

Cabinet installers do know how to "deal with it." It is just nice not to have to.


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## Capt-sheetrock

silverstilts said:


> This post has just cooled down lets not get it all stirred up again.


The only way to do that is not to respond to KG, as he is the only one here or anywhere else tht knows anything about drywall


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## kgphoto

Didn't your momma tell you, if you can't say anything nice, don't say nothing at all?


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## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> Didn't your momma tell you, if you can't say anything nice, don't say nothing at all?


You are right,,, you have my apoligee


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## kgphoto

Accepted. Now how about a new thread? 

I really think all the questions have been answered. Now the only thing to do is to try it or not try it. If it works for you, great. If you don't want to try it, that is OK too.


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## rhardman

:wallbash:


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## kgphoto

[email protected] said:


> The moisture and crushing the joint will void whatever warranty manufacturer's still have. Still maintain that the low occurrence of butt crack call back does not justify another gadget. Sorry, don't feel like reinventing the wheel. And try about any new tool or product once. This one just sounds like a PITA. Show me an endorsement by a major manufacturer of board and will give it a second look... Not.


Here ya go! I didn't ask about what was their specific favorite tool, but the general principals involved. I spoke directly to Ms Friedman and Rik Masters the research Architect for USG.

Hmm - I can't attach a PDF this big to this forum, so I will just cut and paste the stuff here. If you want to PM me your email, I will send the full PDF to you.

January 20, 2010

Kirk Grodske Carpentry Services
Address deleted

Dear Kirk,

Re: Wet Gypsum Panels

This is to confirm our recent phone conversation relative to wet gypsum board.

Generally, SHEETROCK Brand Gypsum Panels can withstand some amount of wetting without damage to the gypsum core. Once the panel is returned to its dry condition, all fire, sound and structural properties are retained. It is a common practice to wet the surface of gypsum panels for bending or reshaping butt joints into a tapered edge. This practice introduces only small amounts of water or moisture for a short duration and if properly conducted will have no adverse effects of the panel. It is with prolonged exposure, that the gypsum core will degrade.

The symptom that points to core degradation is face paper delamination. Gypsum panels exposed to moisture for a long enough period of time will experience face paper delamination. Once the panel is dry a visual inspection can determine the suitability of the product.

An even larger issue with wet board is the possibility of contamination and mold/mildew. Mold is part of one of five living kingdoms, fungi, on earth. It makes up the largest life kingdom and mainly spreads by airborne spores found everywhere. Mold requires a food source and water to propagate. If one of these elements is removed, such as water, the spore can go dormant for an indefinite period of time. Mold can be treated only on the exposed surface of the gypsum panel, without any guarantee against the mold returning when the correct conditions are met. Consideration should also be given to contamination of the gypsum core or back paper. This will occur from exposure to polluted water or its residue. If there is any question on either of these concerns, the board should be replaced. For additional information on mold and its remove, please visit www.epa.org

I trust you’ll find this beneficial. Let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

Sincerely,

Lisa Friedman, LEED AP
Architectural Service Representative
[email protected]
310-339-4990


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## muddermankc

never really had problems with butts, more flat issues. The muds gotten crappier,paints gotten better,even flat paint is starting to have a sheen,"washable". Sometimes see mud seperate and the more you sand it it just "clumps away" not smooth but leaves a edge. Almost like your getting to fill coat line, weird.Wonder if our guys have the mud to thin?


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## rhardman

KG Carpentry Services,

Does your pdf specifically mention crushing the edge?
Seems to me that crushing the edge also pulverizes the gypsum and thus delaminates the paper.


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## kgphoto

Check the first (technically 2nd) paragraph. I specifically described several techniques and he was OK with all of them. Also, note the third paragraph where he says inspection will show. 

Of course, you would actually have to try the product to see that it was a non issue, which is what I have been saying all along. Try it, you may like it! 

Please feel free to follow up and gain whatever clarification you need. The contact numbers are in the post.


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## Capt-sheetrock

kgphoto said:


> Check the first (technically 2nd) paragraph. I specifically described several techniques and he was OK with all of them. Also, note the third paragraph where he says inspection will show.
> 
> Of course, you would actually have to try the product to see that it was a non issue, which is what I have been saying all along. Try it, you may like it!
> 
> Please feel free to follow up and gain whatever clarification you need. The contact numbers are in the post.


And the beat goes on,,,,,,,:whistling2:


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## Muddauber

Capt-sheetrock said:


> And the beat goes on,,,,,,,:whistling2:



La de la de de..........................La de la de da


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## kgphoto

*Just the facts, ma'am*

Just doing as Darren requested. I said I would look into it and I did it. Where I come from, that is a mark of being a pro, too.


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## rhardman

Capt-sheetrock said:


> And the beat goes on,,,,,,,:whistling2:


zxvbzvb


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## [email protected]

Gee, an architect says it's okay, rather vaguely. Far from an endorsement. This tool has been discussed on two threads in two separate calendar years. Besides kg, not one fulltime drywaller has expressed one iota of interest in this. 

My last custom had two wall butts in a dark hallway. Two. In 12k of board. I'll not repeat all my objections to this "tool". Can't we just move on to a more fruitful discussion? I really cannot imagine that anybody would benefit much by further promotion. I've never had tapers so unskilled as to need such a thing.


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## fenez

It's not that the butt taper isn't a great idea that addresses an age old problem for finishers...it's just that you can take an electric plane to the studs and accomplish the same thing without having to bother with wetting and pressing.


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