# Spotting Screws



## Scott_w (Jun 16, 2010)

On my recent job I am having trouble with the screw spotting sinking after primered and painted. Prior to, it was all smooth and flush, now it appears to have sunk in leaving a circle. This is only seen in certain light and up close.

Any thoughts? The compound wasn't sanded right off, but left with a haze over the area.

I did only do 2 coats (by hand), but it seemed to cover fine. The mainfloor we did 3 (with a spotter), so I will see if it is better.

It was at least a week before sanding, so it was nice and dry.

btw.. no the screws weren't set to far.

thanks...scott


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## michel1949 (Jul 21, 2010)

not sure if my wife is doing the right thing
she 1st coat the nails with a 2 inche knife and repair the miss 
then she uses the 2 inch nail spotter for the 2nd and the 3rd

we have done the sanding today and all looks decent


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## Saul_Surfaces (Jan 8, 2010)

I put 3 coats on all my screws, and make sure they have the same drying time between between coats that the seams do. 

its been talked about before, and certainly not everyone is a fan, but I use spin mix for my top 2 coats. (about 2 cups of proset90 mixed into a full bucket of Synko or ProRoc finish mud). It handles like regular mud (except over straight setting compound--that doesn't work), but doesn't shrink as bad as regular box mud.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

scott
2 coats don't cut it (there are ways to 2 coat .....not going there)
-1st 2 coats considered a filler coat
-last coat a sanding coat
mud consistency
-1st coat straight stiff mud
-2nd coat,boxing mud/2nd coat bead mud
-3rd coat,12" boxing mud/skimming mud
knifes to use (this old school,so no arguing)
1st - 3or 4 inch........do long strokes,keep skinny
2nd - 5" go wider than last coat
3rd - 6" go even wider than last coat
not telling you how we do it,but I did share our mud consistency with you:whistling2:
and never use bazooka mud for 1st coat


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

Scott_w said:


> On my recent job I am having trouble with the screw spotting sinking after primered and painted. Prior to, it was all smooth and flush, now it appears to have sunk in leaving a circle. This is only seen in certain light and up close.
> 
> Any thoughts? The compound wasn't sanded right off, but left with a haze over the area.
> 
> ...


Not to tell you how to do the job but 



Mudstar said:


> you will learn that when coming to the sanding the screws on the 2nd floor.


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## proficient Mudder (Aug 28, 2010)

I always 3 coat the screws, 1st 2 coats with thick mud pulled tight and the third coat with thinner mud to skim tight over the complete spot of first 2 coats for easy sand.

I have seen people build the mud up on top of the screws and then lite sanding over them leaving a bulge and a recess where the screw is, making a bigger problem instead of just filling a very small recess.

Bill


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## wnybassman (May 9, 2008)

Three coats are definitely a must.

Also, if not totally filled (as in not enough coats) or sanded too close to the dimple edge, we have seen where heavy coats of primer/paint can re-moisten the compound and re-shrink a tad when that dries. This is especially true when the painting conditions are more humid/damp than you'd like to see and the primer/paint takes longer to dry than normal.


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## Scott_w (Jun 16, 2010)

Thanks. I see a few possibilities. 

I have always got away with 2 coats before, however I would use quickset on the first coat.

The mud I did used on the first coat was fairly thin (from the angles). The 2 coats seemed to cover fine, even when sanded though. It was definatly dry when sanded. However the house has been quite humid. 

We'll see how the mainfloor goes this week. I spotted with the 2" twice and then 3" once. Its all primed (yesterday) and it looked good.

thanks...scott


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

One note to all that may not know----'do not first coat screws with brown bag durabond" that could be the reason for the small ring you are seeing[I learned the hard way years ago]


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## Saul_Surfaces (Jan 8, 2010)

DSJOHN said:


> One note to all that may not know----'do not first coat screws with brown bag durabond" that could be the reason for the small ring you are seeing[I learned the hard way years ago]


DS, what happens when you first coat with durabond? Is the issue with all setting compounds, or just durabond? I've never heard this, and would be glad to avoid an issue. Thanks


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## DSJOHN (Apr 5, 2010)

We only have durabond in this area; havent used anyother brand---the brown bag,not ez sand white bag is your problem,no shrinkage and polishes when sanded and will highlight any screw head ,thats just my experience,maybe if we post it as a question we,ll get more replies?


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

Even EZ-sand will "swell" when it dries. 

Brown-bag swells, and EZ sand swells. What happens is it swells, therefore leaving too much around the screw hole. 

If you use EZ sand, you can scrape each screw hole before second coating it, but that kinda makes it a mute point, why bother.

Some guys use it hopeing it will get it done in two coat rather than three, but,,,, we all know what them kinda "short-cuts" end up costing us.


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## Saul_Surfaces (Jan 8, 2010)

thanks guys. I'll consider myself warned.


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## rebel20 (Jun 4, 2009)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Even EZ-sand will "swell" when it dries.
> 
> Brown-bag swells, and EZ sand swells. What happens is it swells, therefore leaving too much around the screw hole.
> 
> ...


 
That's an intesting concept. I have never heard of that. I will have tests done again with our mud as I have not seen this before. I am very intested to get the results will let all know what they are. I will have our testers comment on this.

rebel


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## Scott_w (Jun 16, 2010)

Still trying to figure out the problem. The mainfloor looked pretty good, maybe a couple spots. I'll see when its painted.

Now the ones on the 2nd floor that had 2 coats and were full and flush when sanded, what would a 3rd coat have done? Does it "wet" it again so the previous coats shrink more?

I've never had this problem before. The only other thing it could be would be the humidity, as it has a pretty damp basement. 

Just curious. Never been an issue until now. 

thanks for all the advice...scott


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

screws are the one thing pro's most hate to do,but they can be your biggest headache too,they are the one thing where there could be so many reason why some thing went wrong.screw pops being the biggest one we get blamed for.I don't think you will hear anyone of us losing sleep over them.their called the blame game......but if a bead or a butt,or a joint goes wrong:furious:
let us know how the main floor turns out,and don't water down your paint.....you got to three coat too scott (nails)


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## Scott_w (Jun 16, 2010)

Thanks, I know they aren't screw pops. I will see if I can get a pic or video of what I see. The client likes it and says I am too fussy. But it stands out like a sore thumb! I don't know how they can't see it. Even if they can't, it needs to be fixed, because someone WILL see it eventually! 

Edit: BTW LOVE!! the nailspotters! Would you use them over a painted surface? Or will it damage the paint?

Thanks..scott


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

the clients are right,but if your going really dark colours.....and keep away from egg shell and semi gloss,but you know that
so..... dark colour ,watch it,screws could give you trouble then


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

Scott_w said:


> Still trying to figure out the problem. The mainfloor looked pretty good, maybe a couple spots. I'll see when its painted.
> 
> Now the ones on the 2nd floor that had 2 coats and were full and flush when sanded, what would a 3rd coat have done? Does it "wet" it again so the previous coats shrink more?
> 
> ...


Scott, a cpl things to think about when it comes to nail spots. 

1) If the painter is using eggshell and DOES NOT prime correctly, the "sheen" from the differance in eggshell will show the screws(same as the joints). It ain't your fault at that point, but you WILL get the blame for it.

2)About humidity, IF the painter is using eggshell and the humidity is too great, therefore leaveing the wall "wet" for an extended period of time, the nail spots WILL shrink. Again, not your fault, but you WILL get the blame for it.

The only REAL answer for these kinda of problems is to make the GC let YOU prime the walls,,,,,,,, Cause I FIRMLY believe that primeing is the LAST step of drywall, and NOT the FIRST step of painting.


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## wnybassman (May 9, 2008)

What kind of insulation was in the house? If it was damp applied cellulose, it could have been too damp and the board absorbed some extra moisture and swelled a touch. Seen that before too.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

wnybassman said:


> What kind of insulation was in the house? If it was damp applied cellulose, it could have been too damp and the board absorbed some extra moisture and swelled a touch. Seen that before too.


 Good point


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

got this from wiki scott
A vapor barrier may not be needed with cellulose insulation. For example, recent studies have shown that air movement is the primary method by which excessive moisture can accumulate in mild marine climate such as Portland, OR, USA. [6] An insulation that fills the wall cavity completely (such as cellulose or foam) can help prevent moisture problems. Recommendations against using vapor barriers with cellulose insulation are supported by studies, even though they classify cellulose as vapor permeable.[7]
sue the city for your screws ,they made you poly over form
google cellulose:yes:


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## Mudstar (Feb 15, 2008)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Scott, a cpl things to think about when it comes to nail spots.
> 
> 1) If the painter is using eggshell and DOES NOT prime correctly, the "sheen" from the differance in eggshell will show the screws(same as the joints). It ain't your fault at that point, but you WILL get the blame for it.
> 
> ...


Agreed on all your points but you forgot one thing Capt. 

Prime must be sanded before paint to avoid flashing of the work we do and to archive a much smoother finish

Then eggshells and semis can be used with better success.


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## Scott_w (Jun 16, 2010)

You guys post too fast for me to keep up!:thumbup:

We do all the priming and painting. We always sand in between prime coats to try and even out the surface. We prime, check again with a light, touch up, sand everything with a 360 disk and reprime. Then we sand again before paint. We don't sand in between paint coats though (2).

As I said I have never had a problem until this job. All the board was also hung by us, so I know it is the same as we always do it.

The paint is either satin or eggshell on the walls, and flat on the ceilings.

Capt, you may have something there with the humidity. We kept the windows shut the whole time priming the upstairs until it had a chance to dry a bit. We had a problem with too many bugs coming in (no screens).

scott


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

you sand twice ,prime twice and do touch ups too,plz move to London and paint behind us
i think I'm in love:jester:


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## Scott_w (Jun 16, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> you sand twice ,prime twice and do touch ups too,plz move to London and paint behind us
> i think I'm in love:jester:


Like I said we do all projects start to finish, so I am ALWAYS the next guy!:yes: I tried bringing people in, but found I am to OCD about stuff!:blink: Of course certain things you have no choice.

I could never get a grasp of the "its no my job.. its his" attitude. Too much drama. Or if you have a problem, trying to get them back.

Whats it like in the "real" world?

One day I'll have to head up and bring you out for some beers.

Appreciate all the help.

scott


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Scott_w said:


> You guys post too fast for me to keep up!:thumbup:
> 
> We do all the priming and painting. We always sand in between prime coats to try and even out the surface. We prime, check again with a light, touch up, sand everything with a 360 disk and reprime. Then we sand again before paint. We don't sand in between paint coats though (2).
> 
> ...


Me too when i paint as well scott, :thumbsup:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

Scott_w said:


> You guys post too fast for me to keep up!:thumbup:
> 
> We do all the priming and painting. We always sand in between prime coats to try and even out the surface. We prime, check again with a light, touch up, sand everything with a 360 disk and reprime. Then we sand again before paint. We don't sand in between paint coats though (2).
> 
> ...


Scott, I read this post a few times, (to make sure I understood it).

If you are priming it that way, and a light does NOT show a dimple on the nail spots,, You should look into changeing brands of paint (for finish). 

I have ALOT of painters jump me for saying this, BUT some eggshell paints will keep the wall wet SO LONG that the nail spots will shrink. 

Don't take my word for it, just buy a differant brand and see if it does the same thing. What have you got to lose, cept some headaches.


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