# Screw Buttons



## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

Does anyone else have any trouble with the screws bulging out a bit after the job is all finished?
The screws were flat across when I'm done, but later an area the size of the screw head bulges beyond the surface of the board. I coat the screws with all purpose joint compound. It can happen when the surface is painted or left unpainted.

I use USG Sheetrock drywall, OSI adhesive, and USG joint compounds.

The USG Corporation blames it on the adhesive shrinking.

I told my customers that this is a stud-finding service that I include at no additional charge! :jester:


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Wet lumber is the culprit most likely. Starts to dry out after job and that forces screws out slightly. They will still be tight but will protrude just enough to see.


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

thefinisher said:


> Wet lumber is the culprit most likely. Starts to dry out after job and that forces screws out slightly. They will still be tight but will protrude just enough to see.


Thanks for your input, The Finisher! On this most recent job, the lumber was about 50 years old.
So, in this case, the cause wasn't moisture in the lumber. Does anyone know what the moisture reading should be on lumber?

I suppose the Buttons could be caused by different things, but I don't remember having any troubles in "The Good Old Days"!


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Most times movement is the cause whether it be from moisture or settling but in your case it may be from something not obvious. Did they install siding on the house after you finished? That will pop screws slightly every time. Drastic weather change? Painter water down primer heavy? Delayed shrinkage of the adhesive could be possible but it would have pulled the board in within a day or two of hanging.... Not some time later.


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## jackleg (Jan 22, 2008)

did you first coat with 'easy sand'?


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

jackleg said:


> did you first coat with 'easy sand'?



Thanks for your input Jackleg! No, I coated the screws with USG all-purpose ready-mix joint compound.

By the way, the Screws Buttons (USG's term) are not screw pops. The sheets are still tight to the framing. The job I was referring to was actually National Gypsum drywall, so I get these buttons with USG or National. Both times I used OSI adhesive.

Has no one else seen this problem on any of their jobs? :blink:

I think I may have to take a tip from Gazman and try the Aussie way! Right now we put a bead of adhesive on the framing before installing the board, we may have to try the daub approach. Here's hoping I can get my "set in their ways" hangers to switch! :whistling2:


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

jackleg said:


> did you first coat with 'easy sand'?


I know where you are going with this but that would show up when he went to put 2nd coat on the screws and would be sanded down flat either way. This is a a prime example of movement or moisture. I see it all the time. Sheets will still be tight but the mud will slightly protrude from the surface from the screw head. 90% of the time it is from wood drying.


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

Wimpy65 said:


> Thanks for your input Jackleg! No, I coated the screws with USG all-purpose ready-mix joint compound.
> 
> By the way, the Screws Buttons (USG's term) are not screw pops. The sheets are still tight to the framing. The job I was referring to was actually National Gypsum drywall, so I get these buttons with USG or National. Both times I used OSI adhesive.
> 
> ...


Hi Wimpy, with our daubs of glue we make sure that they are 8 inches away from the fixing point for just that reason.:thumbsup:


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

Thanks Gaz! 
I talked with my one hanger today and he seemed willing to try the Aussie way. 
I also like the way you use battens on the ceilings. That sure would settle some of our truss lift troubles!
Just seems like you guys sure have a great system for drywall. Give the good, old USA some time and we'll catch up. Who knows, we might even claim the ideas as our own!


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

Theres things you can do to avoid it but it just happens. I built my place 5 years ago, Lying in bed reading a bedtime story to my daughter, The lamp on floor casting light over the walls and heres popped screw heads, AND the protruding line smack in the middle of the joint showing? And this is a wallpapered wall too? Explain that one no way it was there when i had finished it yet over time there it is.


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## Finire (Feb 21, 2018)

I tend to bust people's balls big time whenever they fill screw holes with anything other than hot mud and/or fill screw holes where the screw isn't sufficiently screwed in and/or pull instead of plow the mud across the screw hole after sufficiently filling the hole.


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

Finire said:


> I tend to bust people's balls big time whenever they fill screw holes with anything other than hot mud and/or fill screw holes where the screw isn't sufficiently screwed in and/or pull instead of plow the mud across the screw hole after sufficiently filling the hole.


Thanks for your input, Finire!

I find the setting compounds I have (USG Easy Sand & National Quick Set Lite) both cause the screw buttons! :blink:

I often think it would be fun to have easy access to all the different products that are available, but I have enough trouble getting my local supplier to stock more of the USG line (their exclusive manufacturer).


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## Finire (Feb 21, 2018)

Do you pull the mud across the screw hole so an air bubble remains underneath?


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

Finire said:


> Do you pull the mud across the screw hole so an air bubble remains underneath?



This will have to be our little secret Finire, but I coat each screw separately! 
I'm one of those old-fashioned guys that still does it the slow way. So, no to the air bubbles question.

When I leave the job the screws are flat and flush with the surface. These buttons appear later.


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## Finire (Feb 21, 2018)

I'm the same way. One hole at a time. Less light sanding later on.

Do you understand what I mean when I say to plow(push up) with the knife after filling the hole instead of pulling down?

I always see an air bubble if I try to pull down the mud after the first fill. This is mainly why I find it very hard to believe there isn't any trapped air as you say.

This is the wrong way to do it...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WzeE5Mp0x10
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MHpM1iORXzg


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

I saw the videos of what not to do, but no video on how to do it properly? Don't keep me in suspense!

I really don't think my trouble has to do with air pockets (doesn't seem like air pockets would cause the screws to swell), but now you have me curious. :yes:


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Guys I'm telling you it is movement. Very little movement needs to occur for this to happen.


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

You are right The Finisher, it is movement. However, I don't believe what I'm experiencing is structural movement, but rather some sort of movement from shrinkage.
I'm sure the buttons can be caused by several different things. 

I started the thread to hear if others are seeing these buttons on their jobs, as well. I guess I'm glad that not too many others are having this problem. :yes:


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Wimpy65 said:


> You are right The Finisher, it is movement. However, I don't believe what I'm experiencing is structural movement, but rather some sort of movement from shrinkage.
> I'm sure the buttons can be caused by several different things.
> 
> I started the thread to hear if others are seeing these buttons on their jobs, as well. I guess I'm glad that not too many others are having this problem.


I see it happen all the time here actually. Mainly due to wet lumber in my opinion. It is actually worse when we glue the rock it seems. If you don't want screw pops/buttons then you simply cannot put screws in the field.


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## Finire (Feb 21, 2018)

Wimpy65 said:


> I saw the videos of what not to do, but no video on how to do it properly? Don't keep me in suspense!
> 
> I really don't think my trouble has to do with air pockets (doesn't seem like air pockets would cause the screws to swell), but now you have me curious. :yes:


Try filling a hole really well with hot mud and push up with the knife multiple times as if you're plowing snow. I don't believe a video is warranted.

Air pockets leave a void and when we paint... The mud slightly rehydrates because of the water in the water based paint and therefore retracts into the void.

Screw buttons have many causes. Wet lumber seems valid in new construction unless a 500w halogen lamp is used to dry out the lumber. I love these halogen work lights for drying out mud after application but not before since they tend to overheat the surface temperature of the drywall.

Loose studs that have been nailed is another issue. Seen this recently in my brother's house and we screwed the studs down with 3 inch screws.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

3


Finire said:


> Try filling a hole really well with hot mud and push up with the knife multiple times as if you're plowing snow. I don't believe a video is warranted.
> 
> Air pockets leave a void and when we paint... The mud slightly rehydrates because of the water in the water based paint and therefore retracts into the void.
> 
> ...


Longer the screw . More chance of a pop The core of the new stud is green . And hot mud has a poor bond to metal . I fill all field screws with all purpose .I've seen homes stocked with wet board off the truck ..that's a huge no no .. when that board dries out it shrinks ... I've seen painters piss down paint to run through there sprayer ..soaking down the board and causing severe issues . 

Lots of variables .


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

thefinisher said:


> I see it happen all the time here actually. Mainly due to wet lumber in my opinion. It is actually worse when we glue the rock it seems. If you don't want screw pops/buttons then you simply cannot put screws in the field.


I did some repair work on a monster years back . Huge home. 800 boarder at least . Non of the board was glued . Every field screw was popped . The homeowner never mentioned it. But i seen them everywhere. I knew it wasn't glued when I was doing some tear outs . And it's easy to tell by beating the walls and hearing the rattles . So ... go figure. . I do agree with you tho .. over glued can shrink back and cause pops .


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

thefinisher said:


> I see it happen all the time here actually. Mainly due to wet lumber in my opinion. It is actually worse when we glue the rock it seems. If you don't want screw pops/buttons then you simply cannot put screws in the field.


In my area, the lumber is quite dry. I check with a moisture meter and rarely have any reading out of the single digits.
Interesting you have more trouble when you glue. That seems to support the USG study that says it is adhesive shrinkage that causes these buttons.


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## krafty (Jun 30, 2016)

All our ceilings are run with resilient channel,so that presents its own problems. Mostly stripped out and a lot of misses. The channel is thinner now than it used to be which is the low end of 26 gage,they use fine thread points, but still hard going. AP three coats no water seems to help. But it sucks regardless!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thefinisher (Sep 2, 2011)

Well I don't think the adhesive causes it really. I think the adhesive actually keeps the studs tight to the board and when the studs start to dry out then the board had to come with it. The screw however does not cooperate lol and stands it's ground causing a very slight bulge outward that is just barely enough to notice. The board will be nice and tight but there will be a little "button". These are not really screw "pops"... A pop to me is when the screw or nails are showing a concavity and are no longer holding the board tightly. If the studs even think about moving this will happen. Can be from moisture, settling, poor engineering, or just flat out sh!tty board. Go all metal studs, use metal furring, or glue the heck out of it and pull all the field screws possible. All of which adds to the cost to which the GC will not pay for as they will just make you come fix them anyway.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Ever seen the bag when the screw box is empty ?

Greasy ?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

So many variables.

It's like 2buck Said once.

Drywall took the place of plaster . Not because it was a better product it was cheaper !!


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

moore said:


> So many variables.
> 
> It's like 2buck Said once.
> 
> Drywall took the place of plaster . Not because it was a better product it was cheaper !!


I certainly agree with 2buck!
Seems like everyone is looking to go faster and cheaper (especially the manufacturers) and still want a better product than ever before. 

I did a remodel job where the old plaster didn't look too good anymore.
The homeowner was happy with the way the plaster looked (it adds character), but wanted the drywall to be perfect! :blink:


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## endo_alley_revisited (Aug 9, 2016)

We use undiluted taping mud for the first coat on screws. It shrinks. But it sure does stick better than any other mud. Hot mud will sag as it sets and create a bump that needs scraping or brush with a sanding pole prior to second coat. Better to use taping mud for the first coat and hot mud for the second coat. Taping mud tends to re-glue the paper at screw misses fairly well also. For smooth wall always single coat fasteners. Our biggest issue for screw pops is over blown insulation that sticks out a couple inches proud of the stud cavity. This tends to stress the sheetrock at the fasteners. Especially when the paper is damp from mudding.


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## Finire (Feb 21, 2018)

moore said:


> 3
> 
> Longer the screw . More chance of a pop The core of the new stud is green . And hot mud has a poor bond to metal . I fill all field screws with all purpose .I've seen homes stocked with wet board off the truck ..that's a huge no no .. when that board dries out it shrinks ... I've seen painters piss down paint to run through there sprayer ..soaking down the board and causing severe issues .
> 
> Lots of variables .


Unlike most drywall finishers, I don't take on jobs unless painting is involved with a roller. There is no satisfaction in drywall finishing without painting or with letting a hack painter mess up the drywall finish by spraying on primer.

It is very strange how you proclaim all purpose(vinyl resins) sticks to coated drywall screws better than hot mud without any evidence when all purpose is what caused screw buttons in my early days of trial and error to figure out what worked and what didn't.

Just like there is hack painters that spray on primer, there is hack drywall finishers that act like old dogs set in their ways. ie I've been doing this for 30 years... and the classic arrogant saying... leave it to the pros... When the self proclaimed pros have issues like the typical DIY... really shows how the self proclaimed pros aren't really professional.



endo_alley_revisited said:


> We use undiluted taping mud for the first coat on screws. It shrinks. But it sure does stick better than any other mud. Hot mud will sag as it sets and create a bump that needs scraping or brush with a sanding pole prior to second coat. Better to use taping mud for the first coat and hot mud for the second coat. Taping mud tends to re-glue the paper at screw misses fairly well also. For smooth wall always single coat fasteners. Our biggest issue for screw pops is over blown insulation that sticks out a couple inches proud of the stud cavity. This tends to stress the sheetrock at the fasteners. Especially when the paper is damp from mudding.


Hot mud only sags when it is pulled across the screw hole and the resulting bump is an air pocket.


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## endo_alley_revisited (Aug 9, 2016)

Finire said:


> Hot mud only sags when it is pulled across the screw hole and the resulting bump is an air pocket.


That is not true. Try prefilling a small hole or gap in sheetrock with hot mud. Come back in an hour or two and it will have sagged. In fact, when the hot mud is partially set, it is best to scrape off the sagged protrusions to leave the surface flat. This does not happen with all purpose, or any drying compound. They take a long time to dry. And they may very well shrink back when they dry. But they are not going to sag the way hot mud sags.


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

Finire said:


> Just like there is hack painters that spray on primer, there is hack drywall finishers that act like old dogs set in their ways. ie I've been doing this for 30 years... and the classic arrogant saying... leave it to the pros... When the self proclaimed pros have issues like the typical DIY... really shows how the self proclaimed pros aren't really professional.


Yep, I'm guilty as charged! :jester:
I've been a drywall hack for not 30 years, but 35. And the only thing "professional" means is I get paid for what I do.
I brought up the question to see if other professionals are dealing with the same problem. Surprisingly few seem to have the same situation I'm dealing with. But, I suspect your speculation about the typical DIY is true.
No worries, I've been around long enough to know I have so much more I could learn about this trade. In fact, that's the main reason I joined this forum.
So, I appreciate any and all input! Thanks to all for at least trying to point me in the right direction! :thumbsup:


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## ubercorey (Mar 3, 2018)

So why glue drywall to the framing? I've heard about this be never seen it done in the hundred of builds ive been on.


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

ubercorey said:


> So why glue drywall to the framing?


for better fastening and less work for tapers


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

Wimpy65 said:


> Yep, I'm guilty as charged! :jester:
> I've been a drywall hack for not 30 years, but 35. And the only thing "professional" means is I get paid for what I do.
> I brought up the question to see if other professionals are dealing with the same problem. Surprisingly few seem to have the same situation I'm dealing with. But, I suspect your speculation about the typical DIY is true.
> No worries, I've been around long enough to know I have so much more I could learn about this trade. In fact, that's the main reason I joined this forum.
> So, I appreciate any and all input! Thanks to all for at least trying to point me in the right direction! :thumbsup:


He sounds like a d"ck!
Its as simple as this when wood shrinks there is nothing we can do about it! Its going to happen using hot mud or readymix the result is the same!:thumbsup:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

keke said:


> for better fastening and less work for tapers


And less chance for buttons /pops . If glued properly.


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## endo_alley_revisited (Aug 9, 2016)

moore said:


> And less chance for buttons /pops . If glued properly.


We do some board gluing. But the same old issues occur. How do you glue board over a vapor barrier? How do you glue over shims?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

endo_alley_revisited said:


> We do some board gluing. But the same old issues occur. How do you glue board over a vapor barrier? How do you glue over shims?


No vapor barriers here . 

Shim what ?


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## endo_alley_revisited (Aug 9, 2016)

moore said:


> No vapor barriers here .
> 
> Shim what ?


We straight edge and shim most fancy houses before we begin rocking them. That's why I drive a ten year old truck and don't have any money.
(Er, one of the reasons).


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

endo_alley_revisited said:


> We straight edge and shim most fancy houses before we begin rocking them. That's why I drive a ten year old truck and don't have any money.
> (Er, one of the reasons).


I drive a 12 year old truck and I don't have any money either . But unless they pay me to shim out a bad frame ? High end or not . I'll still be broke driving a 12 year old truck .


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## Mud n’More Mixball (Mar 18, 2018)

I can’t remember the last time I bought a bucket of mud. 20 min mud all day everyday. The only time I get screw buttons is when the screw went too deep and breaks the paper.


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## Mur-Wall (Mar 18, 2018)

You guys are to much ! Glue the field screw all around if there is poly screw the wall board . If you are getting air pocket in the screw holes than you are putting your screws to deep.His problem is movement.The earth moves and its not flat .


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mur-Wall said:


> You guys are to much ! Glue the field screw all around if there is poly screw the wall board . If you are getting air pocket in the screw holes than you are putting your screws to deep.His problem is movement.The earth moves and its not flat .


You mentioned one variable . Now how about he rest ?


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## Finire (Feb 21, 2018)

endo_alley_revisited said:


> Finire said:
> 
> 
> > Hot mud only sags when it is pulled across the screw hole and the resulting bump is an air pocket.
> ...


Hot mud doesn't sag when it is PLOWED multiple times across the screw hole. Or you probably mix hot mud too runny and then blame the mud on your incompetence.

I recently finished and primed a room in a 10-20 year old house with dry lumber. I filled sufficiently and plowed all the holes with durabond except 5 holes that were filled with certainteed all purpose. Guess which holes have screw buttons?

Now I need to drill the all purpose holes and refill with durabond.

It is self evident hot mud sticks better to metal since it is much harder to clean our tools after hot mud has dried on them than when premixed mud has dried.

If premixed compounds are structurally superior, why don't we use them for heavy fills?

I may sound like a **** but at least I don't finish like a wasteful lazy non thinker who keeps doing the same thing and expects different results.


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## Mur-Wall (Mar 18, 2018)

Hey ,

May I ask.

Why are you using Durabond in screw holes ?

How many times do you do them ? 2 or 3 times ?

Do you scrape between coats ?

In 30 years We had screw buttons ones and it was because we use Sheetrock 90 in the screws ,so we went back scrape and skim and sand again.
That was over 15 years ago.
Usually if screw buttons appear the screws are to deep or the wood is shifting.

We all work in different regions and share our experience and I think it is the hole point of this Forum.


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## gopherstateguy (Apr 8, 2012)

Mur-Wall said:


> Hey ,
> 
> May I ask.
> 
> ...


I did the sheetrock90 thing on one house and had the same result. Lesson learned.


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## fletcherdrywall (Apr 19, 2018)

*buttons*

interesting discussion,I have seen this the last few years and spent alot of time trying to figure out why and how to the point of giving up. I have done all my drywall hanging the last 25 years and while I have slowed down I have not changed the way I hang. I have also worked with the same finisher for fifteen years and what used to be considered by the contractors I have worked for some of the best drywall work they have ever gotten, to we got problems. While heat humidity and all those other factors have always been in play only recently are we having these button issues. What has changed? The board is different ,the glue is different . The only good thing I see about the new board is its easier to pick up and the glue does not give you that buzz when using in closed space. I guess its insanity,doing the same thing and expecting the same results ? Used to just worry that our butt joints didnt show, that our angles were crisp and the corner beads didnt shine. Now its are the screws gonna poke their ugly little heads out before its even primed or will they wait a few months


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Finire said:


> Hot mud doesn't sag when it is PLOWED multiple times across the screw hole. Or you probably mix hot mud too runny and then blame the mud on your incompetence.
> 
> I recently finished and primed a room in a 10-20 year old house with dry lumber. I filled sufficiently and plowed all the holes with durabond except 5 holes that were filled with certainteed all purpose. Guess which holes have screw buttons?
> 
> ...


Hot muds have a poor bond to metal and vinyl .


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## keke (Mar 7, 2012)

moore said:


> Hot muds have a poor bond to metal and vinyl .


opposite here..... I will do metal and vinyl just with hot mud


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## endo_alley_revisited (Aug 9, 2016)

fletcherdrywall said:


> interesting discussion,I have seen this the last few years and spent alot of time trying to figure out why and how to the point of giving up. I have done all my drywall hanging the last 25 years and while I have slowed down I have not changed the way I hang. I have also worked with the same finisher for fifteen years and what used to be considered by the contractors I have worked for some of the best drywall work they have ever gotten, to we got problems. While heat humidity and all those other factors have always been in play only recently are we having these button issues. What has changed? The board is different ,the glue is different . The only good thing I see about the new board is its easier to pick up and the glue does not give you that buzz when using in closed space. I guess its insanity,doing the same thing and expecting the same results ? Used to just worry that our butt joints didnt show, that our angles were crisp and the corner beads didnt shine. Now its are the screws gonna poke their ugly little heads out before its even primed or will they wait a few months


Nothing else sticks to screws as well as taping mud for first coat. It shrinks though.


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## Wimpy65 (Dec 17, 2013)

I've been thinking about using the spray foam adhesive, instead of the OSI adhesive I've been using. Has anyone else tried that? If so, what are your thoughts?


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Wimpy65 said:


> I've been thinking about using the spray foam adhesive, instead of the OSI adhesive I've been using. Has anyone else tried that? If so, what are your thoughts?


I think the finisher has tried it. Or mentioned trying it.


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