# Weldcrete for Drywall Cracking



## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Hey guys,

I've had some issues with getting bad pallets of mud recently (that may be a whole 'nother thread and topic in itself).

i've had perfect horizontal cracking on the walls AND ceiling of this custom home we finished -- it looks like an earthquake disrupted the whole house, its THAT bad (which leads me even more to blame the mud). settling definitely may be to blame PARTLY for it, but not 100%. i strongly feel that the mud we used was defective as well, of course the manufacturer will never own up to this, or even the possibility of it...which is complete chicken s--t if you ask me.

anyways, what ive been doing recently in situations like this, is using Weldcrete bonding agent. this stuff is used to glue freakin concrete together, so its definitely strong. for those of you unfamiliar with the technical name, its that 'blue stuff' that looks like paint.

the main thing im concerned about of course, is for the cracking NOT to come back. so far, Weldcrete seems to be the key for that........

what ive done with these cracks, is have my patchman dig out the crack, forming a V-groove.....with whatever tool he wants (he usually uses his own car keys), then i have him take a paintbrush and apply it inside all along these grooves....making sure it gets in there and builds up inside the crack.

from that point, we let it dry for an hour or so (more if we can), and quickset over the patch to texture it (in this case, im talking about a hand textured house.....spray textured house, you can do the same procedure, but anyways...).

after the quickset dries, i then paint over it with hamilton prep coat.....just to get the two substrates to a level finish....in this case, was a smooth pool troweled hand texture.....so, perform accordingly to your texture of course.

anyways, this SEEMS to be the golden product in situations like this (knock on wood).

but id love to hear your guys thoughts on Weldcrete for cracking.......if you have tried it, or will try it in the future.

agian, the main reason i use this product, is for the cracking NOT to come back since its such a strong bonding agent. quickset alone, and spackling, whatever just doesnt seem to do it -- cracks always return...however, this weldcrete seems to be IT.

thanks guys, im sure ill hear from someone soon!

(oh btw, in this house....the paper tape itself has NOT CRACKED....just the mud alone -- food for thought.)


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

hmmm... sounds interesting. I'd probably just tape the cracks just to save the money going out to buy the stuff, and if they cracked again, I would use it. I have always paper taped cracks. Unless it was a T&M job, sure why not.


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## drywallnflorida (Sep 19, 2008)

sounds like the board is floating (not broke on a stud)


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## Muddauber (Jan 26, 2008)

I know of a drywall contractor who had the same seam cracking as you about a year ago. A USG rep. met him at a job sight to have a look at the problem and advised him to use another manufacturers mud.
So much for manufacturers warranty ,huh.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

drywallnflorida said:


> sounds like the board is floating (not broke on a stud)


 
Floating?

but ALL of it? EVERY sheet? im talkin two big custom homes here, with PERFECT horizontal cracking (moreso blistering -- paper tape is NOT cracked) in 99% of the house.

one house is 3000 sf.....and the other one is near 6000 sf.....

these are fairly big houses.......and each house is experiencing the same problems, and were completed in the exact same time, roughly a week apart. this all leads me to believe the mud has a defect.....it just seems like theres no adhesive or glue in the mud. even my patchguy who has been patching for 20 years told me hes never seen the mud react like how its doing for these two houses. and its the two houses ALONE, i havnt had this phenomena happen to ANY other houses -- not this bad at least...like i said above, we're talkin 99%......not just one corner of the house....not just a few rooms.....but EVERY single room, nearly every sheet you can visibly SEE...its terrible.

anyways, again....this topic is a whole nother thread........

but weldcrete is the solution to these two jobs for me at least, as well as any other miscellaneous cracking -- its great, i think.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Muddauber said:


> I know of a drywall contractor who had the same seam cracking as you about a year ago. A USG rep. met him at a job sight to have a look at the problem and advised him to use another manufacturers mud.
> So much for manufacturers warranty ,huh.


 

.............wow, hahhahahhaha......ur kidding?


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

joepro0000 said:


> hmmm... sounds interesting. I'd probably just tape the cracks just to save the money going out to buy the stuff, and if they cracked again, I would use it. I have always paper taped cracks. Unless it was a T&M job, sure why not.


 
nah, not T&M.....freakin manufacturer wont even help me out...im basically eating the profit i THOUGHT i made from these houses.......thats fine, i bid my jobs high anyways, for situations just like this.

anyways, i dont see the need to tape over these, because the actual paper tape underneath is NOT cracked.....the mudhowever, is literally falling off.....blistering off..........again, which leads me to beleive there is a mud defect.

freakin manufacturers wont even admit this.......they wouldnt even take a sample of the mud to analyse, or the batch #'s off the mud boxes we saved!!

some help huh!?


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

just out of curiosity which brand of mud did you use?


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

brdn_drywall said:


> just out of curiosity which brand of mud did you use?


 
hamilton/westpac......

didnt really want to bring up the name if i didnt have to....but there it is. ive switched all my mud out to USG.....

thing is though, it doesnt matter who you use.......every brand is prone to defects -- it comes off a factory line and is mass produced....s--t happens, and its understandable to me.......i just wish some of these manufacturers would realize that, and admit it. the rep comes out to the house, and within less than 5 minutes of being there, goes out and says to me and the homeowner "well, first off...this isnt a product defect..."

yea, thanks buddy......guy didnt even bother to grab a sample to take back to the lab.

sigh, anyways.....point is, ive had bad mud from both USG and hamilton/westpac before........again, this stuff comes off a factory line -- its not 100% perfect.....whats to say the machine or whatever for some reason didnt shoot the glue/adhesive into these batches of mud that i happen to get..........its not impossible that would happen. its all machinery controlled by computers. we all know even computers arent perfect.


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## joepro0000 (Jun 14, 2008)

Damn that sucks, I guess the mud is defective. Funny its a perfecly horizontal crack, seems strange. Hopefully I don't ever have to experience this, but if I do i'll remember the weldcrete method.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

Where are you located? I know that up here in the "nort country" if it's too cold out, and there isn't any insulation poured in yet, funny things like that can happen. Are you prefilling any of the seams that are cracking with fast set? if so, maybe that needs more time to set up and is reacting. These are all problems I've had over the years. Just thought I would share, though I agree it's more than likely a defect. I might have to try your fix next time I go patch someone elses hack work. Thanks


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Whitey97 said:


> Where are you located? I know that up here in the "nort country" if it's too cold out, and there isn't any insulation poured in yet, funny things like that can happen. Are you prefilling any of the seams that are cracking with fast set? if so, maybe that needs more time to set up and is reacting. These are all problems I've had over the years. Just thought I would share, though I agree it's more than likely a defect. I might have to try your fix next time I go patch someone elses hack work. Thanks


 
******,

id rather not disclose where im from specifically, if you dont mind.

anywyas...........thing is, with these 2 specific houses.....great care was taken for several reasons. first, being they were high-end custom homes of course, and primarily second, they were each very influential homeowners in the construction industry here -- i had to make SURE it was a quality job because our company reputation was on the line. in that regard, i was extra cautious that each coat was dry before laying on the next -- to avoid future problems of cracking, etc.

for example, btwn the 1st and 2nd coats, in the existing conditions at that time, it only required about 2 full days to dry -- i had it dry at least 4 days. plus, each house was to be heavily hand textured.....i still went ahead and performed level 5 finishes on both of them, just for the hell of it.

******, if by fast set youre referring to quickset, or hot mud.....then, no i do not use quick set. thats a huge no-no for our company. we only use quick set on small patches and miscellaneous small touch-ups, etc -- but not to completely finish houses with.

anyways,

yea, definitely try the weldcrete ******. my patchman who has been patching all his life is singing praises for weldcrete right now since he's been using it. hes noticed in the past, by repairing cracks with quickset or spackle, that they would just end up cracking again days to weeks later.

remember when dealing with cracks, just carve them out with a key to form a v-groove.....and get a small brush for the weldcrete, and make SURE the weldcrete gets snugly inside those cracks...just jam the hairs of the brush inside them. after the entire crack is filled, ust walk away, and let it dry for at least 30-45 mins (depending on the weather)......although, i believe the manufacturer would recommend 1-2 hours, so if you can, take your time with it (although my company just cant afford to!).

after its dry, come back on it with normal quickset (we use 20 min.).

after that dries, texture accordingly.

we find this stuff is hard as a rock after it dries inside those cracks

after all, it CAN be used to glue freakin concrete together.....

http://www.larsenproducts.com/weldcrete.htm

check it out guys.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

i wasn't trying to play you for a fool by any means my friend, It's just a very interesting and difficult problem to deal with I'm sure. I wish I could help you more with this.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Whitey97 said:


> i wasn't trying to play you for a fool by any means my friend, It's just a very interesting and difficult problem to deal with I'm sure. I wish I could help you more with this.


No offense taken at any time ******. With my reply, it may have sounded like i was offended, but no...

Anyways, this IS a very interesting problem.....and i feel us drywall guys need to stick together and come up with solutions for things like this.

by that, i specifically mean when drywall companies fall victim to mud defects or structural movement, causing cracking, etc. We all know how frustrating it can be when we get blamed for drywall issues that are beyond our control.

uneducated owners / builders will immediately blame the drywall subcontractor, i.e. 'us.' 

so, again.....just think its in everyones best interest to stick together and educate as many other drywallers, contractors, clients, etc as we can...

sharing ideas on a forum like this is great i think. 

good luck to all................especially in such an economic downturn as right now....everyones hurtin. just stay in there. This is just the normal business cycles to weed out all the bad blood (business) in our industry and others. Things will turn back up 2010 at the earliest (you can dream on if you think this year things will turn around).


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

*MUST READ Industry Material*

Every drywaller needs to read these articles, literature, etc...


http://www.wconline.com/CDA/Archive/b367f464b7768010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0

http://www.hamiltonmaterials.com/CrackingInfo/PDF/CenterlineCeilingCracking.pdf

http://www.gypsum.org/pdf/236-2000b.pdf

please feel free to share your thoughts.


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## Apple24 (Jul 17, 2008)

I think your projects took on a high level of humudity,which intern led to your rigding or beading. Did a large custom home, house was framed all winter got real wet. The builder threw more moisture into the home by running prpane heaters in basement subfloor just sucked it up. If you have mudd peeling or comming off the wall stop using so much soap ya don't need that **** anyway. Humidity is my worst enemy in michigan, its all good the day i leave then the heat cycle starts and the lumber shrinks and ridging occurs. If I do a smooth ceiling in the future I'll run Rc-1 channel with SW edge drywall, costs alot but only way to do a true smooth ceiling.Oh yeah your cheap labor may have something to do w your callbacks.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

Apple24 said:


> Oh yeah your cheap labor may have something to do w your callbacks.


ouch... them there are fightin' words


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Apple24 said:


> I think your projects took on a high level of humudity,which intern led to your rigding or beading. Did a large custom home, house was framed all winter got real wet. The builder threw more moisture into the home by running prpane heaters in basement subfloor just sucked it up. If you have mudd peeling or comming off the wall stop using so much soap ya don't need that **** anyway. Humidity is my worst enemy in michigan, its all good the day i leave then the heat cycle starts and the lumber shrinks and ridging occurs. If I do a smooth ceiling in the future I'll run Rc-1 channel with SW edge drywall, costs alot but only way to do a true smooth ceiling.Oh yeah your cheap labor may have something to do w your callbacks.


 
RC-1 is great....i hear that. i try as much as i can to push that onto the customer...if not, i cant guarantee the job. this is something im implementing new nowadays at least.....i wish i had done this years ago though. I even offer it literally at cost to the customer...it's not necessarily a line item i make money off of because we WANT to do it. Environmental factors w/ drywall play such a huge role that we want to save the possible headache 6 mos to a year later.

as far as cheap labor, definitely not that my friend. The finisher i had on that job has worked with me for 15 years and makes over a 60k salary. i wouldnt call that cheap, and definitely not inexperienced. however, he's not making that NOW quite honestly, i can guarantee you that -- just too slow nowadays. And to clarify, callbacks are NOT a regular thing for my company as your post may have implied...........occasional, standard, minor callbacks, yes.......but something as big as this is rare.....maybe once every 1-2 years my company has to go through a 'problematic customer.' at the same time, i welcome it though, becuase it keeps me on my toes, and i still continue to educate myself as far as problem and solution. For example, the Weldcrete for cracks.....if i didnt go through this current problem, i probably wouldve never thought of using it. but like i said, my patchguy is required to keep at least a gallon in his truck at all times now, its been that great and helpful. we swear by it now nearly.

Apple, as far as humidity you are completely right. although, i didnt experience ridging on this house. i still attribute it to bad mud. i've seen what humidity can do to a house, and this was definitely not the cause of my problems (at least not the main cause, to be clear).

like i said, even my patchguy who i had fix this house, has been patching with me for over 20 years had even made a comment how he'd never seen anything like it -- and how the material (mud) just didnt 'feel' right when he was repairing the cracks, as if there was no adhesion in the mud at all.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Whitey97 said:


> ouch... them there are fightin' words


hahaha, ******...please do not instigate anything! hahhaha

im sure he didnt mean it offensively.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

instigate? me? what? NEVER!


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

Custom, bummer on that bad mud/crack issue. About sticking together on these issues, Amen. Another bogus mud to watch for is Pro-form. Another local contractor and I both had similar cracking issues. While I can't vouch for his methods, can for my own and we did everything according to hoyle. Rep told my buddy he added too much water and bolted from the job so I didn't bother to call him out. Only thing I use Pro-Form for now is KD tex (Lite Blue). And the mud in question was all purpose black. 

I'll save that weld-crete tip for later though. Do you get this from your Drywall supplier or from concrete specialty supplier?


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Custom, bummer on that bad mud/crack issue. About sticking together on these issues, Amen. Another bogus mud to watch for is Pro-form. Another local contractor and I both had similar cracking issues. While I can't vouch for his methods, can for my own and we did everything according to hoyle. Rep told my buddy he added too much water and bolted from the job so I didn't bother to call him out. Only thing I use Pro-Form for now is KD tex (Lite Blue). And the mud in question was all purpose black.
> 
> I'll save that weld-crete tip for later though. Do you get this from your Drywall supplier or from concrete specialty supplier?


 
you know Darren, Weldcrete.....i, myself get it from my material house. i've heard of people buying it from Home Depot / Lowe's (not 100% sure though).

Plus, im sure any concrete supplier would have it.

check this out:

http://www.larsenproducts.com/weldcrete.htm

actually, the website says it is available through building supply dealers throughout the u.s.

Darren, about that rep.....

adding too much water, YES....that is a possibility (i really have to see it of course to know)....but saying it was that, then bolting from the jobsite.....thats chicken sh-t. Reps nowadays dont give us subcontractors any comfort anymore it seems, or any confidence. same thing with my rep.....he didnt blame it on me, nor his product.....but said it was the homeowners fault for leaving the house unconditioned throughout the extremes in temperature while his house was framed.

i dont care whose fault it is, but the homeowner does NOT want to hear that straight out the gate. Think of it from YOUR perspective if you were the homeowner....i was so pissed but hid it during that meeting. to me, thats just wrong...i feel these drywall reps are supposed to provide comfort and solutions in cases like this. the guy didnt even bother to take a box of mud or the batch numbers off the boxes used for further testing back at their labs.

the rep did not do any good whatsoever. me and the homeowner were basically left in the cold holding our di-ks -- pathetic. 

since then, its been me and the homeowner helping each other fix the cracks -- the homeowner has been nothing but GREAT and cooperative in all of this. i just wish my 'drywall rep' woulda done the same.

i should plaster this reps NAME all throughout this website -- but i wont.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2008)

And I shouldn't bag too hard on reps. Not all are like that. Our Freeman rep is awesome. He'll come out to the job, even when its not his product. Of late even bringing out a Mark V Graco to show off his Speed-Skim product for Level 5 and teach you all he can about application etc.

But you are right. You got hosed. And the HO does not want to here that BS from him. And with market like it is.... galls me too. Vote with your wallet, I always say. Did you go over his head? Wonder how secure his job is these days? What that guy doesn't realize is that without us using their product, they've got nothing. They need to keep the DW contractor impressed--service is all he has to offer. Without us, he has to peddle his product in lumberyards, where USG has sewn up the bigger chains.

PS: My other favorite brand is Magnum and in 13+ years, never had the need to call the rep over a product failure. Spoke with him maybe twice. I want his job -- like being a Maytag repairman.


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## Apple24 (Jul 17, 2008)

if i use pro form lite blue i very raley sand because the dust makes the mud peel and not correctly bond to the seams i run 8 ,10 box. spray 20 fan w/ mark 5 wife 14.


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## Apple24 (Jul 17, 2008)

Well seriosly do you use no pock or soap becaouse the bonders wiil not bond and peel. Or maybe the mud was thinned too much and brokedown


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

I was just reading my "Wall and Ceilings" magizine, instead of using weld-crete, they have a product more for drywall, I may check out, "Plaster Weld" just thought I would put it out there made by larsen products. www.larsenproducts.com


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Apple24 said:


> Well seriosly do you use no pock or soap becaouse the bonders wiil not bond and peel. Or maybe the mud was thinned too much and brokedown


We've NEVERRRR used soap -- Ever.

Although, im hearing that tip so much on here, i might think of usin it!


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

Whitey97 said:


> I was just reading my "Wall and Ceilings" magizine, instead of using weld-crete, they have a product more for drywall, I may check out, "Plaster Weld" just thought I would put it out there made by larsen products. www.larsenproducts.com


 
hahha, i love this mag....

yea, ur right....i see that all the time too, and never put two and two together.

ill definitely have to check this out.....same manufacturer.....has to be good!


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> And I shouldn't bag too hard on reps. Not all are like that. Our Freeman rep is awesome. He'll come out to the job, even when its not his product. Of late even bringing out a Mark V Graco to show off his Speed-Skim product for Level 5 and teach you all he can about application etc.
> 
> But you are right. You got hosed. And the HO does not want to here that BS from him. And with market like it is.... galls me too. Vote with your wallet, I always say. Did you go over his head? Wonder how secure his job is these days? What that guy doesn't realize is that without us using their product, they've got nothing. They need to keep the DW contractor impressed--service is all he has to offer. Without us, he has to peddle his product in lumberyards, where USG has sewn up the bigger chains.
> 
> PS: My other favorite brand is Magnum and in 13+ years, never had the need to call the rep over a product failure. Spoke with him maybe twice. I want his job -- like being a Maytag repairman.


 
yea, not ALL reps are bad..........actually, westpac was always good to me, until my main guy retired.

this rep was new.....and the FIRST TIME i ever dealt with him. and im SURE the prior westpac rep told the new guy to 'take care of us'.......theyve been servicing us for over 20 years now.

and THATS what i got....all the BS i mentioned above -- nice.

ur rite...vote with ur wallet.

immediately i switched out all my pallets in my warehouse to USG.


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## brdn_drywall (Apr 25, 2008)

******,custom did you see that new tape in the new products section (wall and ceiling) from straight flex looks like mesh tape under a microscope half the thickness of paper and better strength.
i hope they design this for a bazooka application but i dought it,can't wait for it to hit the market regardless.


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## Whitey97 (Jan 27, 2009)

no, I'll have to pay more attention and go through it again. Thanks!


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## drywalljoe (Apr 10, 2009)

Custom Drywall Svc. said:


> RC-1 is great....i hear that. i try as much as i can to push that onto the customer...if not, i cant guarantee the job. this is something im implementing new nowadays at least.....i wish i had done this years ago though. I even offer it literally at cost to the customer...it's not necessarily a line item i make money off of because we WANT to do it. Environmental factors w/ drywall play such a huge role that we want to save the possible headache 6 mos to a year later.
> 
> as far as cheap labor, definitely not that my friend. The finisher i had on that job has worked with me for 15 years and makes over a 60k salary. i wouldnt call that cheap, and definitely not inexperienced. however, he's not making that NOW quite honestly, i can guarantee you that -- just too slow nowadays. And to clarify, callbacks are NOT a regular thing for my company as your post may have implied...........occasional, standard, minor callbacks, yes.......but something as big as this is rare.....maybe once every 1-2 years my company has to go through a 'problematic customer.' at the same time, i welcome it though, becuase it keeps me on my toes, and i still continue to educate myself as far as problem and solution. For example, the Weldcrete for cracks.....if i didnt go through this current problem, i probably wouldve never thought of using it. but like i said, my patchguy is required to keep at least a gallon in his truck at all times now, its been that great and helpful. we swear by it now nearly.
> 
> ...


i have a two question custom, what is weldcrete and where do you get it , and what is rc1 channel we used some channel on commercial jobs on the ceilings i asked because i am always loooking for ways too improve my smooth ceilings


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

drywalljoe said:


> i have a two question custom, what is weldcrete and where do you get it , and what is rc1 channel we used some channel on commercial jobs on the ceilings i asked because i am always loooking for ways too improve my smooth ceilings


Simplest explanation:

RC-1 aka Resilient Channel, are metal strips that attach BTWN the stud and the drywall, i.e. the wallboard has no direct contact with the framing member -- thus allowing the wallboard to move independently, flexing along the metal channel in btwn.....which is just what rc channel does, allowing 'flex' of the wallboard.

rc-1 channel is used mainly for two things: sound and drywall.

A lot of apartment complexes will require rc channel in the specs, not for drywall movement, but merely for sound -- specifications usually include walls and ceilings.

however, for drywall use, i primarily use it for ceilings.

for smooth wall, if you want to take the extra precaution, i cant see why this is bad to put it on the walls as well. manufacturers reccomend that, but....its obviously not the most PRACTICAL and cost effective thing to do.

imagine rc channeling a big custom home, walls and ceilings. just too much.

i usually have my hangers attach it on ceilings with large spans, and big girder trusses.

i've virtually reicieved NO callbacks on all ceilings ive done this with.

as far as weldcrete, its a Larson Product. (ill give u the site when im done)


i think ****** actually told me another larson product more designed for what i use it for, Plaster Crete....smth like that.

anyways, read up:

http://www.larsenproducts.com/weldcrete.htm

http://www.jm.com/insulation/faqs/996.htm

the 2nd link shows rc channel for sound.....virtually same application when used for drywall though.

Hope that helps.

let me know if you have anymore questions


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## drywalljoe (Apr 10, 2009)

thanks for the info


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## silverstilts (Oct 15, 2008)

Custom Drywall Svc. said:


> ******,
> 
> id rather not disclose where im from specifically, if you dont mind.
> 
> ...


 May be you don't want to say where you are from , but if the climate was cold , what type of heat was used ? Back to another thread on what kinda damage propane or kerosene heaters are capable of doing when not vented properly , or burning correctly leaving a residue on the walls and ceilings preventing the mud to bond ? Is this a possibility ? Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Custom Drywall Svc. (Oct 31, 2008)

silverstilts said:


> May be you don't want to say where you are from , but if the climate was cold , what type of heat was used ? Back to another thread on what kinda damage propane or kerosene heaters are capable of doing when not vented properly , or burning correctly leaving a residue on the walls and ceilings preventing the mud to bond ? Is this a possibility ? Just my 2 cents worth.



yea, i hear that.

i NEVER use propane ....never never for that very reason u mentioned.

if i can, i try to always let a job dry out under normal conditions. i believe thats the best way.


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