# Primer vs sealer



## 2buckcanuck

Guess there's a difference:yes:

From what I have been reading, sounds like sealer may be better, according to this link http://jackpauhl.blogspot.ca/2008/12/drywall-primers.html

I seen his name over at paint talk before:whistling2:

Were getting problems with painters using just flat paint. Non primer or sealer:blink:

So whats everyone think, or had problems/wars with painters over their prime coats.

Whats the best way to go, primer, sealer or flat paint

IMO, it's something every taper should know about. Then you can kick painter butt in arguments

Any help from actual painters will be appreciated:whistling2:


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## PrecisionTaping

Well I didn't really bother to read that article seeing as how it was longer than the bible!

All I know is that I am a wicked good taper and I do wicked good work!
If after it's painted it looks like sh!t it means you hired a sh!tty painter!

That's all my contractors need to know! I'm awesome! Your painter sucks!


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## gazman

PrecisionTaping said:


> Well I didn't really bother to read that article seeing as how it was longer than the bible!
> 
> All I know is that I am a wicked good taper and I do wicked good work!
> If after it's painted it looks like sh!t it means you hired a sh!tty painter!
> 
> That's all my contractors need to know! I'm awesome! Your painter sucks!



FIGJAM. (Flip I Am Good Just Ask Me):whistling2:


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## gazman

Woops sorry off topic already.

IMO sealer every time. Thats what the product is made for. Flat paint is just that flat paint.


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## 2buckcanuck

PrecisionTaping said:


> Well I didn't really bother to read that article seeing as how it was longer than the bible!
> 
> All I know is that I am a wicked good taper and I do wicked good work!
> If after it's painted it looks like sh!t it means you hired a sh!tty painter!
> 
> That's all my contractors need to know! I'm awesome! Your painter sucks!


:furious::furious::furious:

I'm starting to see why you don't have girl friend. May I suggest a book which may help you..... Mister know it all:whistling2:


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## PrecisionTaping

But on a more serious note,typically you would use a primer first because it's cheaper than colour. If you're buying decent quality paint I don't see a problem with using a flat paint as your primer, you're still going to have to pre-sand your walls and do 2 coats of finish on top to prevent flashing. The reason most people use just drywall primer is because it's cheaper than coloured paint. 

And if you had a full house to do you would have to change your paint colour for every different coloured room you do! 
Because you wouldn't want your coloured prime perhaps tinting your walls for your finish coats.
That's allot of work! Brush changes, roller cage changes, tray changes. Just to seal your drywall!? Screw that.
Regular good quality primer does the trick.
If primer wasn't any good they wouldn't make it.

And as far as the all in one paints like Benjamin Moore's Aura with the primer built in, ya sure they work great! If you like paying $80 for a friggen gallon!!
And a common misconception is that you can use it directly on fresh drywall because it has a built in primer. That's false! Hardcore false!

You're not saving a step by not having to prime because you're still going to need 3 coats. They tell you you can go directly on fresh drywall knowing full well that the 1st coat will almost be completely absorbed into the wall and will not stretch as far as primer!
All the moisture will be sucked right into the drywall, requiring 2 more coats. Why?! Because you didn't have an actual primer to seal the wall. 
So instead of buying a 5 gallon pail of primer for $50-$60 you bought $80 gallon's of all in one paint which you will now need to buy twice the amount of because the drywall soaked it all in on the first coat. If they're trying to sell you all in one primer paint for fresh drywall, you're being scammed!

Everybody understand!?
Let me sum it up again.
They rather lie to you and sell you more of an expensive paint which will not stretch as far as primer, so you're having to buy twice as much expensive paint than had you just bought primer to seal your drywall.

Makes sense right?! Think about it.
Which coat soaks up the most paint? Your primer. 
Because it's going directly onto drywall, all the moisture gets sucked into the wall, so you need allot more paint on your prime.

So if you choose not to use an actual primer and just go with colour for primer, that's fine it will work....
It's just you're paying way way more.

Built in primers are for re-paints only! And they do work great for that!

If you don't have a primer, don't expect to get away with two coats! Even though it says two coats on the can! They will tell you your first one was a prime coat. And you have to do 2 coats after.

There. Done my rant. :thumbsup:


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## 2buckcanuck

gazman said:


> Woops sorry off topic already.
> 
> IMO sealer every time. Thats what the product is made for. Flat paint is just that flat paint.


From what I was reading to night, sounds like sealer is better. The sealer breaks down more evenly over the new drywall and mud. While primer absorbs more into the paper, and not the mud.

But then you half to ask yourself the question, are they back rolling the primer, to draw it back out from the paper.

So method of application will have an affect also.......maybe:blink:

Do you need to back roll the sealer or not. Maybe one product is better for a sprayer, well the other for a paint roller ?????


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## 2buckcanuck

How many words a minute can you type PT, Holy, you might be faster than Cazna the fast typer:blink::blink::blink:


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## gazman

2buckcanuck said:


> From what I was reading to night, sounds like sealer is better. The sealer breaks down more evenly over the new drywall and mud. While primer absorbs more into the paper, and not the mud.
> 
> But then you half to ask yourself the question, are they back rolling the primer, to draw it back out from the paper.
> 
> So method of application will have an affect also.......maybe:blink:
> 
> Do you need to back roll the sealer or not. Maybe one product is better for a sprayer, well the other for a paint roller ?????


I am not sure on that 2Buck. But I do know that most painters around here skip the sealer coat and just do 2 coats of colour. I went back to one job that I did late last year, I was told that the ceilings were finnished. I could see the board through the paint . To me it looked like one coat that was 50% water.:furious: I got paid and have not had a call back so I guess it is not my problem.


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## PrecisionTaping

2buckcanuck said:


> From what I was reading to night, sounds like sealer is better. The sealer breaks down more evenly over the new drywall and mud. While primer absorbs more into the paper, and not the mud.
> 
> But then you half to ask yourself the question, are they back rolling the primer, to draw it back out from the paper.
> 
> So method of application will have an affect also.......maybe
> 
> Do you need to back roll the sealer or not. Maybe one product is better for a sprayer, well the other for a paint roller ?????


Primers will create a coarse, flat surface for new paint to adhere to, but don't have enough binders or resins to fill out the difference in texture between the joint compound and the drywall paper, meaning that even if you use a primer, you may still see an uneven finish in your paint.

A sealer will seal the pores of the surfaces to which they are applied, meaning that they have more binders and resins in them to fill the microscopic pores of different materials and textures, creating a uniform, flat surface.
But be careful! Certain sealers are not meant to be topcoated. So if you're choosing a sealer for drywall be sure that it can be painted over afterwards.

They also sell Primer-Sealers. That's what I use! They do the job of both sealing the new drywall and evening out the different textures between the drywall paper and joint compound, as well as creating an excellent surface for new paint to adhere to. :thumbsup:




2buckcanuck said:


> How many words a minute can you type PT, Holy, you might be faster than Cazna the fast typer:blink::blink::blink:


I never bothered to time myself....I am pretty sporadic when it comes to typing. Depends how I'm feeling I guess.
And when I type fast and go on rants my spelling and proper grammar just go right out the window. lol.
I've been trying to keep an eye on it lately though.
Slim's been keeping an eye on me :laughing:


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## SlimPickins

I've switched to using only a sealer on my work. Kilz makes a great "eco-friendly" latex version called Clean Start. I love it........unlike the other versions of their products, you can be sealed up in a room with the stuff and not feel like you're going to puke or pass out.

Plus, I do sh!t-piles of remodel where there's mud over paint or plaster or whatever happens to be there. Sometimes I seal first so I don't disturb what's below with all the moisture I throw at it. Sometimes I tell the homeowners to seal afterward, because I don't know what exactly will happen to all the crazy mud I just put on over their weird surface when they put three coats of paint on it.

I think drywall primer works fine....on new drywall. Maybe. 

I use sealer. Yep. And, I found out, after letting my brush and roller sit in water over the weekend that the particular sealer I'm using will set up......in water.:blink: THAT was fun to clean up.:no:


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## gazman

I just noticed that you Canucks spell COLOUR correctly:thumbsup:. Unlike the US COLOR.


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## PrecisionTaping

See! Told you! There he is! :laughing:

Good points Slim! All true.
I like Killz paint too


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## PrecisionTaping

gazman said:


> I just noticed that you Canucks spell COLOUR correctly:thumbsup:. Unlike the US COLOR.


http://grammarist.com/spelling/color-colour/

Pretty well just the states don't use the "U". haha.
Apparently they just dropped it because the extra key is too much work.

"Color and colour are different spellings of the same word. Color is the preferred spelling in American English, and colour is preferred in most other varieties of English."


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## 2buckcanuck

gazman said:


> I am not sure on that 2Buck. But I do know that most painters around here skip the sealer coat and just do 2 coats of colour. I went back to one job that I did late last year, I was told that the ceilings were finnished. I could see the board through the paint . To me it looked like one coat that was 50% water.:furious: I got paid and have not had a call back so I guess it is not my problem.


Holy, no prime or sealer coat, maybe I don't want to work in the land of Oz:blink:

Pt says it in his post, guess you can get a combo sealer/primer. But the problem that were getting with the builders and painters in our hood, is how they painted your ceiling that you speak of.

Just using a flat based paint IMO shows where the joints and screw spots are. So when you get sun shine walls, the builders complain about seeing all the joints (not my walls of coarse :whistling2

And guess who the builders believe, those silly painters.

So if your going to go to war, best to know which weapon is better, sealer or primer ????


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## 2buckcanuck

PrecisionTaping said:


> http://grammarist.com/spelling/color-colour/
> 
> Pretty well just the states don't use the "U". haha.
> Apparently they just dropped it because the extra key is too much work.
> 
> "Color and colour are different spellings of the same word. Color is the preferred spelling in American English, and colour is preferred in most other varieties of English."


Colour, humour ,neighbour ,harbour, labour, rumour, honour......

Are we off subject again:whistling2:


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## PrecisionTaping

2buckcanuck said:


> Colour, humour ,neighbour ,harbour, labour, rumour, honour......
> 
> Are we off subject again:whistling2:


Hahaha! Pretty much. We made it pretty far though. And i'm pretty sure we addressed the issue. So we can go off-topic now. 

To recap.

*Primers* will create a coarse, flat surface for new paint to adhere to, but don't have enough binders or resins to fill out the difference in texture between the joint compound and the drywall paper, meaning that even if you use a primer, you may still see an uneven finish in your paint.

*A sealer* will seal the pores of the surfaces to which they are applied, meaning that they have more binders and resins in them to fill the microscopic pores of different materials and textures, creating a uniform, flat surface.
But be careful! Certain sealers are not meant to be topcoated. So if you're choosing a sealer for drywall be sure that it can be painted over afterwards.

*They also sell Primer-Sealers*. That's what I use! They do the job of both sealing the new drywall and evening out the different textures between the drywall paper and joint compound, as well as creating an excellent surface for new paint to adhere to.

So you guys can choose what's best. And now everyone is armed with the knowledge they need to defend themselves against crappy painters! Go on little tapers! Fight the good fight!! :thumbup:


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## 2buckcanuck

PrecisionTaping said:


> Hahaha! Pretty much. We made it pretty far though. And i'm pretty sure we addressed the issue. So we can go off-topic now.


I got to work at Grand bend this long weekend PT, Seen lots of Poutang , what did you do:whistling2:


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## PrecisionTaping

2buckcanuck said:


> I got to work at Grand bend this long weekend PT, Seen lots of Poutang , what did you do:whistling2:


I just commented on Carpentaper's thread and explained what I did.
I pretty well just worked. Friday night Brandon called me to let me know the site was going to be launching on Monday, and it would be nice if I could have the video done for the launch. So I started to sort through all my hundred's of scenes from post production and job site footage and sorted out the good from the bad so I could easily find the best scenes to use in the video. Saturday I worked bright and early, had to finish a job. Skimmed a little basement. Came home, started working on the Hardened video. Sunday, same exact thing. Worked in the morning on site, worked on the video in the afternoon. I was done by 5 o'clock, and then uploaded it to YouTube for everyone. And monday....what did I do monday?....wait?..what day are we today!? oh! Monday was yesterday! I....hmm...oh! I worked too! But just the morning again, the boys were a little bummed I made them work on holiday monday so we finished around 11.
That was my adventurous long weekend


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## Kiwiman

2buckcanuck said:


> Colour, humour ,neighbour ,harbour, labour, rumour, honour......
> 
> Are we off subject again:whistling2:


:whistling2: :whistling2:


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## Bazooka-Joe

lol Kiwi


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## PrecisionTaping

Bazooka-Joe said:


> lol Kiwi


Hehe! That did make me laugh Kiwiman.
Illustrated edition....haha


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## Mudshark

2buck must be loving this thread - he has paint talk and sex.


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## Kiwiman

He always dissappears for a couple of days after I take the piss, I think he's playing mind games with me.....I keep thinking he's cooking up something big......or he's just plain offended :huh:


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## PrecisionTaping

Kiwiman said:


> He always dissappears for a couple of days after I take the piss, I think he's playing mind games with me.....I keep thinking he's cooking up something big......or he's just plain offended :huh:


Haha! That means he would never talk to me! lol
I don't think 2buck's offended. He's a good sport.
He better be, for someone who likes to poke fun of others. lol


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## carpentaper

of all the things you have done kiwi that one was pretty tame.


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## 2buckcanuck

Kiwiman said:


> He always dissappears for a couple of days after I take the piss, I think he's playing mind games with me.....I keep thinking he's cooking up something big......or he's just plain offended :huh:


i can't think of anything to do to your one and only pic of you:blink:

You need to post more pics of yourself kiwiman. Maybe Cazna the organized took pics of your last fishing adventure together (hint hint cazna:whistling2

All I can think of,,,,,, is you pulling a sheep out of the water, with some type of caption 

May half to call on the help of other DWT members to photo shop your pic:yes:


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## Kiwiman

2buckcanuck said:


> i can't think of anything to do to your one and only pic of you:blink:
> 
> You need to post more pics of yourself kiwiman. Maybe Cazna the organized took pics of your last fishing adventure together (hint hint cazna:whistling2
> 
> All I can think of,,,,,, is you pulling a sheep out of the water, with some type of caption
> 
> May half to call on the help of other DWT members to photo shop your pic:yes:


Maybe thats not me.....Maybe thats me hiding in the bush.....the good looking one that you can't see :whistling2:


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## Bazooka-Joe

*.*



PrecisionTaping said:


> Hehe! That did make me laugh Kiwiman.
> Illustrated edition....haha



lol PT


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## 2buckcanuck

Kiwiman said:


> Maybe thats not me.....Maybe thats me hiding in the bush.....the good looking one that you can't see :whistling2:


Hiding in the tall grass or bushes, eh'..... I wonder why:whistling2:

Sheep shagger


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## PrecisionTaping

2buckcanuck said:


> May half to call on the help of other DWT members to photo shop your pic:yes:


Kiwiman! Noooo!


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## Kiwiman

I guess I deserved that.


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## PrecisionTaping

Haha, sorry bro. My photo editing skills aren't the best either, but I thought it was funny. lol


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## cazna

Me and some other painters here started having trouble with finishing ceilings with ceiling flat paint, It was going a bit patchy and roller laps were showing, This is going back about 6 years, Before that we didnt seem to have to much bother with them.

We couldnt seem to figure it out, We were doing it the same as always, One coat of wallboardsealer/undercoat then two top coats of ceiling flat, But we were noticing how much the first coat of flat over the sealer was sucking in, It was really drawing back into the board.

I did a job for someone who undercoated just the ceiling above there kitchen before it was installed and left the dining living area as it needed plastered, I had the job of plastering and painting it, So i plastered it then when it came to painting i asked what it was they used, It was awful, Roller marks every direction, And it had a slightly shiny look to it, That wasnt right, They said it was acrylic primer interior/exterior undercoat they had been using to first coat there exterior cement boards with.

So becouse i knew everything i used wallboard sealer undercoat for the rest of the ceiling then top coated with ceiling flat over there terrible acrylic primer undercoat and my perfectly applied wallboard sealer, So what do you think happened then........................

Well the area i did with wallboard sealer sucked back into the board and went a bit lappy and uneven as usual...........And the area they did such a messy terriible job of acrylic primer undercoat...................Well, The ceiling flat sat on top of it, Didnt suck back into the board, stayed wet and allowed me to coat the area even and nice then slowly dryed back perfect with no laps, sucked in spots or any uneveness...........So, Solution found to the top coating problem.

Its extreamly important that the sealer/primer/undercoat whatthehell actually primes/seals the board and mud, In a perfect world all interior painting would happen like the ceiling mentioned above, The first top coat should sit on top of and not suck back into the board, So an interior/exterior primer for me is now my first choice, Not the cheaper interior wallboard sealer.......BUT BUT BUT IF i can spray the sealer/primer on then i load the wall far more than a roller can, Hence then wallboard sealer can be cheaper than the primer and becouse i load it heavy then the wallboard sealer will give me the same result as the interior/exterior primer but with greater filling and leveling, So im basically doing a close to level 5 that allows the first top coat to sit on and not suck back into the wallboard, Second topcoat does the same, So this way i can get things the best as its possible, If your rolling then use the interior/exterior primer.

Different brands of paint in different countys will be different again, As PT described at the start of this thread the differences between sealers and primers, This is a real life story that proves its true.
And no way should you ever use flat paint for sealer/undercoat, That will be a terrible job, It wont work becouse it wont seal/prime/undercoat and the first top coat will suck in and the plastered areas will flash through something awful.
I used it once for an undercoat on some window frames then oiled based semi glossed over it, The top coat went patchy as hell so i had to re undercoat it and start again.


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## popeye

When I paint, I use almost exclusively California Paints....pretty much regardless of what kind of paint....I've never used their sealer though....Any thoughts on best brand of sealers? Successes or failures:


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## j&t drywall

I've been painting about 15yrs now and doing drywall finishing on my own about 3yrs and I just got done doing a bathroom and tried the kilz pva as the primer then sealed it with kilz klear and it came out nice. Ill definitely be using them products from here on out.


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## popeye

*California Sealer*

Is previously mentioned, I use California paints almost exclusively ( why flip a coin? ), but hadn't used their sealer product. I sent the manufacturer an email asking which product they recommend ( assuming the guy at the local hardware didn't have a clue)...they recommended 50300 ( prime sealer )....haven't tried it yet, will post once I've tried it. but here's the link: 

http://www.californiapaints.com/Fin...terior-Primers/Primer-Choice-ASAP-Primer.aspx


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## Mr.Brightstar

I have tried a number of different PVA primers. Killz PVA is by far the best for new drywall.


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## jantzenmoore

I usually prime with kilz 2 and yeah it is more expensive but we mostly do residential remodel and basement finish outs, that being said walls and ceiling seems to yellow when using something cheap. I hate going back to fix a yellowed ceiling after we get done with the job. I always play it safe.


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## Bazooka-Joe

jantzenmoore said:


> I usually prime with kilz 2 and yeah it is more expensive but we mostly do residential remodel and basement finish outs, that being said walls and ceiling seems to yellow when using something cheap. I hate going back to fix a yellowed ceiling after we get done with the job. I always play it safe.


kool Moore, your Moores other brother Moore?


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## jantzenmoore

Brother from another mother


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## jantzenmoore

Is that you dad?!?!?


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## moore

Pay no attention to the man behind the Curtain Jantzen ! 

Joe can click his heels all he wants .. But I doubt he'll ever make It to Kansas !


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## Bazooka-Joe

he s always got something to say that Moore


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## moore

Bazooka-Joe said:


> he s always got something to say that Moore


I'm not the tin man Joe ! I consider myself more of a scare crow kinda guy!:thumbsup:


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## Bazooka-Joe

moore said:


> I'm not the tin man Joe ! I consider myself more of a scare crow kinda guy!:thumbsup:


 
your right you cant throw a scare into anyone








still a dwt bro tho


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## VANMAN

cazna said:


> Me and some other painters here started having trouble with finishing ceilings with ceiling flat paint, It was going a bit patchy and roller laps were showing, This is going back about 6 years, Before that we didnt seem to have to much bother with them.
> 
> We couldnt seem to figure it out, We were doing it the same as always, One coat of wallboardsealer/undercoat then two top coats of ceiling flat, But we were noticing how much the first coat of flat over the sealer was sucking in, It was really drawing back into the board.
> 
> I did a job for someone who undercoated just the ceiling above there kitchen before it was installed and left the dining living area as it needed plastered, I had the job of plastering and painting it, So i plastered it then when it came to painting i asked what it was they used, It was awful, Roller marks every direction, And it had a slightly shiny look to it, That wasnt right, They said it was acrylic primer interior/exterior undercoat they had been using to first coat there exterior cement boards with.
> 
> So becouse i knew everything i used wallboard sealer undercoat for the rest of the ceiling then top coated with ceiling flat over there terrible acrylic primer undercoat and my perfectly applied wallboard sealer, So what do you think happened then........................
> 
> Well the area i did with wallboard sealer sucked back into the board and went a bit lappy and uneven as usual...........And the area they did such a messy terriible job of acrylic primer undercoat...................Well, The ceiling flat sat on top of it, Didnt suck back into the board, stayed wet and allowed me to coat the area even and nice then slowly dryed back perfect with no laps, sucked in spots or any uneveness...........So, Solution found to the top coating problem.
> 
> Its extreamly important that the sealer/primer/undercoat whatthehell actually primes/seals the board and mud, In a perfect world all interior painting would happen like the ceiling mentioned above, The first top coat should sit on top of and not suck back into the board, So an interior/exterior primer for me is now my first choice, Not the cheaper interior wallboard sealer.......BUT BUT BUT IF i can spray the sealer/primer on then i load the wall far more than a roller can, Hence then wallboard sealer can be cheaper than the primer and becouse i load it heavy then the wallboard sealer will give me the same result as the interior/exterior primer but with greater filling and leveling, So im basically doing a close to level 5 that allows the first top coat to sit on and not suck back into the wallboard, Second topcoat does the same, So this way i can get things the best as its possible, If your rolling then use the interior/exterior primer.
> 
> Different brands of paint in different countys will be different again, As PT described at the start of this thread the differences between sealers and primers, This is a real life story that proves its true.
> And no way should you ever use flat paint for sealer/undercoat, That will be a terrible job, It wont work becouse it wont seal/prime/undercoat and the first top coat will suck in and the plastered areas will flash through something awful.
> I used it once for an undercoat on some window frames then oiled based semi glossed over it, The top coat went patchy as hell so i had to re undercoat it and start again.


Ur speaking sh*te Caz!:jester:
No sealer used over her and everything is flat wall!!
Sorry I'm up early and still drunk I think!:thumbup:


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## cazna

VANMAN said:


> Ur speaking sh*te Caz!:jester:
> No sealer used over her and everything is flat wall!!
> Sorry I'm up early and still drunk I think!:thumbup:


Your wall paint might have a bit more body to it then, More fillers and binders etc. Go have another beer, Your not stammering your words yet


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## VANMAN

cazna said:


> Your wall paint might have a bit more body to it then, More fillers and binders etc. Go have another beer, Your not stammering your words yet


Not sure Caz!
I painted for years(Served my time with my dad)
Best we get is called supermatt! If its going to be shiny stuff well that's thier problem if no sealer!


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## prjwebb

I always recommend a sealer but sometimes people don't want to pay for it. 
My mate did a year in Aus painting around Sydney area. He said the paint was ****e compared to here and couldn't find a decent brush so had some sent over from here.


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## cazna

prjwebb said:


> I always recommend a sealer but sometimes people don't want to pay for it.
> My mate did a year in Aus painting around Sydney area. He said the paint was ****e compared to here and couldn't find a decent brush so had some sent over from here.


Oh Really, Well that's interesting, Very interesting.


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## prjwebb

cazna said:


> Oh Really, Well that's interesting, Very interesting.


May have just been the guys he was working for being pretty slack with what they use.


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## igorson

2buckcanuck said:


> Guess there's a difference:yes:
> 
> From what I have been reading, sounds like sealer may be better, according to this link http://jackpauhl.blogspot.ca/2008/12/drywall-primers.html
> 
> I seen his name over at paint talk before:whistling2:
> 
> Were getting problems with painters using just flat paint. Non primer or sealer:blink:
> 
> So whats everyone think, or had problems/wars with painters over their prime coats.
> 
> Whats the best way to go, primer, sealer or flat paint
> 
> IMO, it's something every taper should know about. Then you can kick painter butt in arguments
> 
> Any help from actual painters will be appreciated:whistling2:



You can try to use Toff Hide as a primer and sealer in one. We use it here a lot with success and more money.


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