# flat box 7or8" +10" +12"



## guijarrero (Oct 17, 2011)

Hi yall! Thanks for help 
This might have been called "flat box for dummies II" 
I want to carify one more time in my country there are no atm tools and although I bought Jon Luman's dvd I'm waiting for it yet. 
So here is the question

1) Do you ever use flat box 7or8" +10" +12" in this order?
2) in flats and butts?
3) someone wrote there was a guy that used just 12" box.. do you know a variant.. 8" + 10 in flat joints and 10" + 12" in butt joints.. or else..?
4) Do you coat butts fist the side then center?
like this drywallschool.com's picture?










5) I found 2 usg sheetrock muds here: green lid (Brand) and blue lid (Brand Plus 3™ Lightweight) Wich one in your opinion is better and wich one goes tape, first or second coat?? (we dont have another.. Knauf brand is german.. too thin.. liquid IMO, but good, not for atm tools I guess)

:confused1: Thank you!!


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

guijarrero said:


> Hi yall! Thanks for help
> This might have been called "flat box for dummies II"
> I want to carify one more time in my country there are no atm tools and although I bought Jon Luman's dvd I'm waiting for it yet.
> So here is the question
> ...


 I use 8 then 12 box now and works good!
Flats then butts!
Green lid is great for puttin on tapes but sinks a lot and is hard 2 sand! But ur stuff could b dif from the stuff in the uk!!
Blue lid for boxin nice 2 sand and sinks very little!


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

I run a 10" box on my 2nd coat and a 12" for my skim.
For the most part I do my butt joints by hand.
Sometimes i'll use a box if im really in a rush.
In which case, yes, you keep the wheels of your box on the middle of the tape, and coat both sides. After it dries, do a pass down the middle. As your photo illustrated.
I'll post a little clip for you soon. I'll work on the video now.


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

NO..two butt joints are the same.I feel it's better to finish them by hand..


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

guijarrero said:


> 5) I found 2 usg sheetrock muds here: green lid (Brand) and blue lid (Brand Plus 3™ Lightweight) Wich one in your opinion is better and wich one goes tape, first or second coat?? (we dont have another.. Knauf brand is german.. too thin.. liquid IMO, but good, not for atm tools I guess)
> 
> :confused1: Thank you!!


Tape with the green lid. The blue get's a lot of air bubbles and is really too soft. The green shrinks and is hard to sand. Mix the green and blue lid 50/50 and you'll get midweight for all your coating.


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

moore said:


> NO..two butt joints are the same.I feel it's better to finish them by hand..


Exactly!!
That's why I said above I rather coat them by hand.
Couldn't be more right Moore. Hehe, see what I did there!?


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Tape with the green lid. The blue get's a lot of air bubbles and is really too soft. The green shrinks and is hard to sand. Mix the green and blue lid 50/50 and you'll get midweight for all your coating.


I was going 2 try mixin them as i think it might b a good mix!!
I have been using all dif stuff at the moment and i dont really like none of it so it looks like i will b heading back 2 usg and thyin the 50/50 mix:yes:


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## P.A. ROCKER (Jul 15, 2011)

VANMAN said:


> I was going 2 try mixin them as i think it might b a good mix!!
> I have been using all dif stuff at the moment and i dont really like none of it so it looks like i will b heading back 2 usg and thyin the 50/50 mix:yes:


We get midweight over here ,purple lid, and it's alright. It's my second choice after Lefarge rapid coat. I haven't tried much Goldbond muds. Anybody here favor any of those?


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## Capt-sheetrock (Dec 11, 2009)

P.A. ROCKER said:


> We get midweight over here ,purple lid, and it's alright. It's my second choice after Lefarge rapid coat. I haven't tried much Goldbond muds. Anybody here favor any of those?


Yeah,,,Moore likes their black lid,,, cause its so dern hard to sand !!!!!


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Yeah,,,Moore likes their black lid,,, cause its so dern hard to sand !!!!!


I use what they send me Capt,, Pro form changed there mix back in January ..NOT the same mix.. :furious: It's easy to sand!!!!!!


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

moore said:


> I use what they send me Capt,, Pro form changed there mix back in January ..NOT the same mix.. :furious: It's easy to sand!!!!!!


Nice! I wish we got mud in buckets....
Im always short on buckets around here!
Seems like you got plenty Moore!
Wanna ship me up a few?!?! :laughing:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

moore said:


> I use what they send me Capt,, Pro form changed there mix back in January ..NOT the same mix.. :furious: It's easy to sand!!!!!!


Hey Moore, I see we both own the same Grass hog, and we both treat them the same:thumbup:

My neighbour calls me that "Rich guy who can keep his riding lawn mower outside for the whole winter":whistling2:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Hey Moore, I see we both own the same Grass hog, and we both treat them the same:thumbup:
> 
> My neighbour calls me that "Rich guy who can keep his riding lawn mower outside for the whole winter":whistling2:


That was my old one..I never kept it inside..  I cleared some room for the new one .will see how long that last...Hell ...I may even change the oil in this one..

The biggest problem here with keeping the grass hog out side are squirrels..Those tree rats make nest in it ,,and chew up the wiring .
I hate a f/n squirrel!


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## guijarrero (Oct 17, 2011)

moore said:


> NO..two butt joints are the same.I feel it's better to finish them by hand..





PrecisionTaping said:


> Exactly!!
> That's why I said above I rather coat them by hand.
> Couldn't be more right Moore. Hehe, see what I did there!?


Thanks for your advice

However I found Jon Luman's vid (first with 7" then with 10"box) coating butts really nice (the "union" between the butt and flat..)
Know not new here just check





besides, seeing his dvd, he coats a short 1 ft long butt very impressive.. Does someone agree?


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

guijarrero said:


> Thanks for your advice
> 
> However I found Jon Luman's vid (first with 7" then with 10"box) coating butts really nice (the "union" between the butt and flat..)
> Know not new here just check
> ...


I can't stand all these crappy youtube videos that look like they were shot by a cell phone and you have no idea what the guy is saying because of all the noise and distortion.

I understand when we do it! Cuz were on jobsites and we don't get paid to make videos. We just do it for the benefit of others on this site. So who cares if its shot with a point & shoot camera or a cell phone.

But these guys, who are trying to sell products, and you see them on half of the youtube drywalling and taping videos need to get their act together. These videos blow. Im gonna start making way better videos for everyone to enjoy and learn from! Screw these guys! :yes:

And guijarrero, we weren't arguing that you cant run a box on butt joints. Of course you can! You can run them on any butt joint you want my friend! But there's no guarantee it will turn out good. With a box, you can't feel the butt joint, you can't tell if it has a bigger hump, or if it needs to be filled to the left more, or the right.
Then when you come to do your final skim by hand or when you come to sand, you're screwed. Nothing like passing a pole sander over a bad butt joint and realizing you did a Sh!tty job! And it will happen if you decide to run boxes over every butt joint! You CAN do it! But I wouldn't. How much time are you really saving by having to go back and fix those after. None. Try running the box on them, but give them special attention afterwards! Don't assume everyone is good!

Boxes can make a perfect finish over a butt joint. But you need a perfect butt joint to do that! And we all know how many of those we get :whistling2:


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

guijarrero said:


> Thanks for your advice
> 
> However I found Jon Luman's vid (first with 7" then with 10"box) coating butts really nice (the "union" between the butt and flat..)
> Know not new here just check
> ...


 I've seen that vid many times ..The comments are still fun to read..He's doing 2 bucks double boxing..One comment says that running the seam while still wet will cause it to crack...Not true...Running mud over wet tape will cause it to crack..

Guijarrero I'm new with the boxes  Been playin around with the butt joins with my 10'' Luman sure makes it look easy is all i can say


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

That guy is good:thumbsup: He flies on the tube looks pretty clean from what I see.... Id still smoke him on the boxes:yes:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> And guijarrero, we weren't arguing that you cant run a box on butt joints. Of course you can! You can run them on any butt joint you want my friend! But there's no guarantee it will turn out good. With a box, you can't feel the butt joint, you can't tell if it has a bigger hump, or if it needs to be filled to the left more, or the right.
> Then when you come to do your final skim by hand or when you come to sand, you're screwed. Nothing like passing a pole sander over a bad butt joint and realizing you did a Sh!tty job! And it will happen if you decide to run boxes over every butt joint! You CAN do it! But I wouldn't. How much time are you really saving by having to go back and fix those after. None. Try running the box on them, but give them special attention afterwards! Don't assume everyone is good!
> 
> Boxes can make a perfect finish over a butt joint. But you need a perfect butt joint to do that! And we all know how many of those we get :whistling2:


Your joking right:blink:

Boxes run true my friend:yes:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Your joking right:blink:
> 
> Boxes run true my friend:yes:


I don't know 2 buck...Im pretty picky about my butt joints..


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## guijarrero (Oct 17, 2011)

moore said:


> Guijarrero I'm new with the boxes  Been playin around with the butt joins with my 10'' Luman sure makes it look easy is all i can say





chris said:


> That guy is good:thumbsup: He flies on the tube looks pretty clean from what I see.... Id still smoke him on the boxes





2buckcanuck said:


> Your joking right:blink:
> 
> Boxes run true my friend


Thank you all
I'm also new + I'm far from were beens are cooked (we say)
Got the point Prec Tap

I would really like to know if all you use the 3 box measures (7-8,10,12) or some, like Precision Taping posted 10+12 or Jon Luman in his DVD 7+10, when you have time:thumbsup:


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## chris (Apr 13, 2011)

7" and 10"... we will only use the 12" on smoothwall finish


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

guijarrero said:


> Thank you all
> I'm also new + I'm far from were beens are cooked (we say)
> Got the point Prec Tap
> 
> I would really like to know if all you use the 3 box measures (7-8,10,12) or some, like Precision Taping posted 10+12 or Jon Luman in his DVD 7+10, when you have time:thumbsup:


In your situation, I would get the 10 and 12 combo.

IMO 7,10,12 was back from the days when the mud was [email protected] (it shrunk too much and high in porosity), today the muds are much better.

Some on here may argue the 12" box is useless, and they maybe be right on walls under 8' in height. But when it comes to walls over 8' in height and ceilings, then the 12" leaves a better finish and feathering edge to sand.

Plus you can have the 10" box act as a smaller box if need be........ meaning......... run it once then again when work is dry. Run it once then run it again well wet when you see the mud has shrunk back (my method:yes. Or keep passing over your work till it looks good.

down the road you could purchase a smaller box, but in my opinion, I would start with a 10 and 12 box 1st. To me it's the safer route


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> I don't know 2 buck...Im pretty picky about my butt joints..


Like I've said before, Hand tapers tend to like Machine mud:thumbup::whistling2:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Like I've said before, Hand tapers tend to like Machine mud:thumbup::whistling2:


I only do my beads and butts by hand man.
And i'll 2nd coat my butts with boxes. But skim by hand.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> I only do my beads and butts by hand man.
> And i'll 2nd coat my butts with boxes. But skim by hand.


Now you have me confused:blink::blink:

Now you say you use boxes to do your butts

but in post #15 you say" Then when you come to do your final skim by hand or when you come to sand, you're screwed. Nothing like passing a pole sander over a bad butt joint and realizing you did a Sh!tty job! And it will happen if you decide to run boxes over every butt joint! You CAN do it! But I wouldn't"

:whistling2::whistling2:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> Now you have me confused:blink::blink:
> 
> Now you say you use boxes to do your butts
> 
> ...


But I also said in another post, or maybe the same one, who knows, if you box them to give them special attention. Don't just leave it up to the box!
I'll run my 2nd with the box, once on each side of the tape, then one down the middle, but I always give them attention. I'll feel them when they're dry! To ensure that there is no hump prior to skimming.
And I also said I don't always run them with the box. I will, but if I have the time in an average work day I rather do them by hand.
I'm a confusing person 2buck! :laughing:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Here! We filmed this for you guijarrero.
This is the same job we taped using the Homax banjo.
http://youtu.be/m5pvaBFH4ow?hd=1


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

For me it goes, 8"Tapepro with spacer reducer plate, 7" TT, 10"TT.


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## guijarrero (Oct 17, 2011)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Here! We filmed this for you guijarrero.
> This is the same job we taped using the Homax banjo.
> http://youtu.be/m5pvaBFH4ow?hd=1


:w00t: :w00t: :w00t: Thank you buddy!!!:thumbsup:

great job adding comments on vid
very realistic as you show the "behind scenes" at the end
really useful:thumbsup:
(and talking in filmic language, music production and ending not bad..)


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

guijarrero said:


> :w00t: :w00t: Thank you buddy!!!:thumbsup:
> 
> great job adding comments on vid
> very realistic as you show the "behind scenes" at the end
> ...


Thought that would help you out a little bit. :thumbsup:


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## guijarrero (Oct 17, 2011)

VANMAN said:


> I use 8 then 12 box now and works good!
> Flats then butts!
> Green lid is great for puttin on tapes but sinks a lot and is hard 2 sand! But ur stuff could b dif from the stuff in the uk!!
> Blue lid for boxin nice 2 sand and sinks very little!


thank you!!



P.A. ROCKER said:


> Tape with the green lid. The blue get's a lot of air bubbles and is really too soft. The green shrinks and is hard to sand. Mix the green and blue lid 50/50 and you'll get midweight for all your coating.


I'll try like this!



PrecisionTaping said:


> Here! We filmed this for you guijarrero.
> This is the same job we taped using the Homax banjo.
> http://youtu.be/m5pvaBFH4ow?hd=1


I know you use other muds too..
However I'd like to know your oppinion, PT, about USG mud for boxing and any other who may share some tip really wellcomed.:thumbsup:


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

Well I guess these would be the USG products you're referring too.
http://www.usg.com/interiors/joint-compounds.html
Truthfully, I haven't used much of these. I've used the green bucket and blue bucket for one or two jobs. But I don't see much of these muds in my area. I know the sheetrock Ultralight has just come out not too long ago. Might be worth a shot. But ya, like I said, I dont know much about these brands. But everything will be tailored to your needs guijarrero.
There's not much sense asking others what there opinions are on different styles of mud because what works for them might not work for you.
For example, I use CGC Machine Mud, which I love to death. I've never had any problems with it. However, apparently others hate it! But it works for me and I get great results.
So my best advice to you is to just try different products and see what works best for you. I mean, listen to what the guys on here have to say. They have great experience and wisdom! But take everything said with a grain of salt. You need to find what works for you my friend. :yes::thumbsup:


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## gazman (Apr 29, 2011)

The other problem I see is local variations. Our mud is mostly made in Victoria but occasionally we get mud from a different state. The bucket looks the same but the mud varies a lot. I have spoken to the manufacturer about it and it depend upon the where they source the raw materials. I guess what I am saying is just because it says so on the buck does not mean that it is the same.


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Well I guess these would be the USG products you're referring too.
> http://www.usg.com/interiors/joint-compounds.html
> Truthfully, I haven't used much of these. I've used the green bucket and blue bucket for one or two jobs. But I don't see much of these muds in my area. I know the sheetrock Ultralight has just come out not too long ago. Might be worth a shot. But ya, like I said, I dont know much about these brands. But everything will be tailored to your needs guijarrero.
> There's not much sense asking others what there opinions are on different styles of mud because what works for them might not work for you.
> ...


 U said it lad:thumbsup: I have been through every type of mud u get over here in this last while 2 c what i like best and its coming down 2 usg again!! Only 1 other that i know of in the uk 2 try and im away 2 buy a pallet load just 2 try it again as its been years since i last did!


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## Philma Crevices (Jan 28, 2012)

All we use is USG here too Van, I'm gonna see about the ultra light taping they put out, running the gun half weight would be nice indeed.

We get different consistencys with the +3 depending summor or winter it seems, winter don't need to add any water for first coat


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## VANMAN (Jan 14, 2011)

Philma Crevices said:


> All we use is USG here too Van, I'm gonna see about the ultra light taping they put out, running the gun half weight would be nice indeed.
> 
> We get different consistencys with the +3 depending summor or winter it seems, winter don't need to add any water for first coat


yea when i first tried it over here it was like piss I got intouch with the dealer for the +3 that i was getting it from,and they said whoever was making it messed up! Now u can barley get a mixer in it its that thick!! It states on the buckets that u dont need water on site:jester:But is it the same world over that its like see through:blink:Until it drys?


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## Philma Crevices (Jan 28, 2012)

VANMAN said:


> But is it the same world over that its like see through:blink:Until it drys?


Haven't had a batch thats see through :blink:


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## guijarrero (Oct 17, 2011)

PrecisionTaping said:


> .There's not much sense asking others what there opinions are on different styles of mud because what works for them might not work for you.


Let me explain..



gazman said:


> The other problem I see is local variations.


I think I have explained it many times, no problem. In a 40 million people country like mine (Arg) there are almost.. cero (0) flat boxes..

So.. also cero ATM tool finishers to see/learn from.

Thats why this might be useful for me..



Philma Crevices said:


> All we use is USG here too Van, I'm gonna see about the ultra light taping they put out, running the gun half weight would be nice indeed.
> 
> We get different consistencys with the +3 depending summor or winter it seems, winter don't need to add any water for first coat


Also vids like yours PT, very generous and helpful. Same as Jon Luman's (despite he is not a filming pro and the sound and vid could improve in future) his handling and tips show he is really a skilled and experienced atm finisher.

Here we have 20º (Farenheit -5º C) in winter to rarelly almost 100º (F/ 40ºC) in summer. And very very dry climate no snow litlle rain, just talking about Neuquen city (North Patagonian region) Argentina

Added to this is the fact that we use just 5 or 10% drywall in our buildings (despite growing a bit) mostly in ceilings and some interior walls (much more in offices and commercial spaces). However we have beautifull strong building.. concrete slabs, bricks, concrete revoco.. Very standardized (brick ovens/ huge portland cement factories/ skilled 'traditional' -as we say manpower)
I'll try to share some pictures here soon, just for... fun?? Dont know how you say when you 'waste' your time in the internet..


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## PrecisionTaping (Feb 2, 2012)

guijarrero said:


> Let me explain..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if there's any specific video or subject you want to learn of than let me know. I'll be glad to shoot a video by request for you.
And ya, post some pictures bro. Love to see them!


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

VANMAN said:


> yea when i first tried it over here it was like piss I got intouch with the dealer for the +3 that i was getting it from,and they said whoever was making it messed up! Now u can barley get a mixer in it its that thick!! It states on the buckets that u dont need water on site:jester:But is it the same world over that its like see through:blink:Until it drys?


 I know what your talkin about beer monster ...Here It's the white USG...The thickness is standard ,but it's see through .
Worthless for texture..after It dries you can see the board.:drink:


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