# Opinions on standing up board



## victorydrywall

Hello all,
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on standing up sheets. I only do on steel studs and in certain situations where butt joints can be avoided. My boss is pretty big on no butt joints due to tapers who are more than capable but less than willing to finish to their potential. They complain that it is harder on them to run the flats due to the reaching and bending involved. In theory, it makes sense that it would be easier to finish. In reality, it can make boards hung on sloppily framed walls seem to have a 9' to 12' butt joint every 4'. I'd love to hear from some tapers (I'm a framer/hanger) on this. Thanks.


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## drywall guy158

i hang and finish and my .02 is that i never stand my sheets up, i had to do it 1 time in just 1 room and come finish time it sucked !!! butt seams are easy to do if you know what the f... your doing. 

thats just my .02


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## fenez

In theory Butt joints should always be kept to a minimum, but..... I would honestly prefer to tape and finish railroaded boards any day. It's never fun trying to hide a bad flat every 4 ft.


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## wnybassman

I hate stand-ups.


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## tricounty dwall

i hate stand ups. id rather finish butt joints any day. And also even if u hang a stand up right half of them u have to bust because they arent flat


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## Bill from Indy

Well...i'm on the other side of the fence than most here I guess...I prefer standup, but 90% of my work is on metal..if a wall can be laid down full, I will lay it down...I have to say that for you guys that don't have flat flats, you need to fire your hangers or framers...you should never have to bust out flats unless they are possibly coming off an existing wall


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## Bevelation

In my area, it's a code requirement to installing board perpendicular to the studs. Builders can't offer new home warranty if they install boards standing up.


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## victorydrywall

I'm in the same boat with Bill. Almost all steel studs. As he said, if we can lay them down without a butt we do. If not, stand them up. We finished a job last week in which we stood up 80 something 14's. I slept well that night.


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## Bill from Indy

Bevelation said:


> In my area, it's a code requirement to installing board perpendicular to the studs. Builders can't offer new home warranty if they install boards standing up.


i'm not at all saying you or your code is wrong, but I would like to see the reasoning behind it...unless they have fireblocking in walls at 4ft, it makes absolutely no difference which way the board is ran..I personally don't run standup on wood, but it can be done..wood has a high moisture content and can cause separation and cracking over time

i wish inspectors would realize one of these damn days that drywall is not load bearing and has never meant to be


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## DSJOHN

I,m with ya on this issue,Bill.


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## Custom Drywall Svc.

drywall guy158 said:


> i hang and finish and my .02 is that i never stand my sheets up, i had to do it 1 time in just 1 room and come finish time it sucked !!! butt seams are easy to do if you know what the f... your doing.
> 
> thats just my .02


Exactly. Your finishers should be skilled enough to not even make this an issue. Period.


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## alltex

I say stand ups .Sure a butt is no big deal ,but i can box flats a heck of alot faster than butts an headers and sanding is easyer too. Those 12 foot standups are a nut buster ,but we are big tough drywallers ,right?


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## d-rock

*Stand ups*

If the ceilings are 8-10' ,you can't beat stand-ups. You will have no butts. We usually work on metal studs so we stand 'em up, and top off with cuts around penetrations etc. Would suck to top off with horizontal boards. Also, usually takes 2 guys to hang horizontal ( i know some of you are supermen and hang 1000 boards a day horizontal). 1 man can stand 10 footers all day long.
As a rule, I always run horizontal on wood bearing walls. If wood framing is warpy I also run horizontal. 

As a framer/hanger I usually don't give a crap about the number of butts and flats as long as everything is tight, neat and properly screwed off. Taper should be able to finish all seams to perfection.


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## [email protected]

About drywall being load bearing? No, never was and will never, but it does have shear qualities. Any inspector or architect that claims is wrong.

Much of the steel framing must done stand up. At least in order to attach slap studs.

But railroading is easier to finish and because the tapered rail is perpendicular, it is a stiffer wall. Stands leave the other side breaking 16" difference for the entire height. Stand ups hang much faster and the result shows.


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## rebel20

Most everything is is done here with brick and steel studs so its stand up.
besides that the standard board is 2ft by 10ft kinda like a half wide board Studs are run every 24". The houses are brick so even if you put 2x4 they are 24" apart. In usa I would lay them down for wood and stand up for steel studs also depends on what finisher would rather finish.

Rebel


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## Bill from Indy

[email protected] said:


> About drywall being load bearing? No, never was and will never, but it does have shear qualities. Any inspector or architect that claims is wrong.
> 
> Much of the steel framing must done stand up. At least in order to attach slap studs.
> 
> But railroading is easier to finish and because the tapered rail is perpendicular, it is a stiffer wall. Stands leave the other side breaking 16" difference for the entire height. Stand ups hang much faster and the result shows.


you are right about sheer darren..not denying that..but if there is a sheer issue, the wall should be framed to accommodate it..expansion/slip joints/track...what have you..slap studs are definitely easier on stand up for sure


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## grid ninja

just rocked 360 sheets stand up 9's 1/2 inch. was the easy est rock job i ever did. all on wood ,the lay outs were perfect, stood all the Bord thin put on my stilts and screwed off the tops . with my 18 volt 4200 rpm hilti screw gun. i have hung only 5/8 for years. it took me 42 hours . felt pretty good for a old sheet rocker:donatello:


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## alltex

grid ninja said:


> just rocked 360 sheets stand up 9's 1/2 inch. was the easy est rock job i ever did. all on wood ,the lay outs were perfect, stood all the Bord thin put on my stilts and screwed off the tops . with my 18 volt 4200 rpm hilti screw gun. i have hung only 5/8 for years. it took me 42 hours . felt pretty good for a old sheet rocker:donatello:


 go ninja go!!


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## evolve991

grid ninja said:


> just rocked 360 sheets stand up 9's 1/2 inch. was the easy est rock job i ever did. all on wood ,the lay outs were perfect, stood all the Bord thin put on my stilts and screwed off the tops . with my 18 volt 4200 rpm hilti screw gun. i have hung only 5/8 for years. it took me 42 hours . felt pretty good for a old sheet rocker:donatello:


 Yeah Ninja! yer makin' my hands tingle and my feet itch :thumbup:


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## joepro0000

Stands ups all the time, unless there will be no butt joints, then horizontal.


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## MUDZLINGER

Bill from Indy said:


> i'm not at all saying you or your code is wrong, but I would like to see the reasoning behind it...unless they have fireblocking in walls at 4ft, it makes absolutely no difference which way the board is ran..I personally don't run standup on wood, but it can be done..wood has a high moisture content and can cause separation and cracking over time
> 
> i wish inspectors would realize one of these damn days that drywall is not load bearing and has never meant to be


Hmmmm.
Think of it this way.There is a reason why building suppliers offer lifts of 8 foots to the general public, for a 25 foot wall for example,there is 8,16,24,32,40,48 feet of tape and joints that need to be filled and sanded,whereas laying them horizonally you have 25 feet plus two 4 foot butts. that is 33 feet of tape .Numbers don't lie.There is about 40%more filling work and materials standing sheets up.The suppliers sell more product to the amatures.Very smart of the suppliers to market this way to the unsuspecting.Wow saved alot of $$$ on board but to finish it cost me double lol.


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## Orygun

*Stand ups on both sides*

Years ago when I did commercial in SF bay area it was sop to stand up on one side and horizontal on the other. Something about shear . I'm a taper so we just finished it and keep going. This was on 1,000,000+ sqft bdft steel stud jobs. Just my $.02. The board was a'flyin'.


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## eastex1963

MUDZLINGER said:


> Hmmmm.
> Think of it this way.There is a reason why building suppliers offer lifts of 8 foots to the general public, for a 25 foot wall for example,there is 8,16,24,32,40,48 feet of tape and joints that need to be filled and sanded,whereas laying them horizonally you have 25 feet plus two 4 foot butts. that is 33 feet of tape .Numbers don't lie.There is about 40%more filling work and materials standing sheets up.The suppliers sell more product to the amatures.Very smart of the suppliers to market this way to the unsuspecting.Wow saved alot of $$$ on board but to finish it cost me double lol.


Staggered (correctly)would be four 4 foot butts.....just sayin.:thumbsup:


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## tricounty dwall

im wondering the same thing. I just signed a contrat on a tractor supply. Its going in a old wal mart. I have to do a 180 ft demising wall. Its steel studs with a expansion every 30'. its going to the deck which pitches 19'-22'. Ceiling is existing at 16'. They are tearing a big piece out so i can do the wall. So with the expansin joint going evey 30' would u lay dow or stand up? Ive always layed down all long walls like that. But i saw pixs of how one guy here ran a 12 then a 10 stand up so butts were stagered. Im about a week or 2 from starting the framing


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## 2buckcanuck

tricounty
stand ups easier and faster for the drywaller, lay downs (12 ft) easier for the taper,who do you like more:whistling2:
me personally I don't mind stand ups if their 8 to 10 foot high, after that it's dear god why didn't they lay them down


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## penandscale

id lay it down starting with a 2 foot rip which keeps seam above ceiling then stand up
from there starting low end to high only have to cut angle every two pieces that way
and makes it easier for cutouts at roof and you only need one person on scaffolding above ceiling that way


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## penandscale

you say its in an old wall mart ? it might be one of the ones i built or remodeled 20 years
ago if its in Charleston area


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## Bill from Indy

MUDZLINGER said:


> Hmmmm.
> Think of it this way.There is a reason why building suppliers offer lifts of 8 foots to the general public, for a 25 foot wall for example,there is 8,16,24,32,40,48 feet of tape and joints that need to be filled and sanded,whereas laying them horizonally you have 25 feet plus two 4 foot butts. that is 33 feet of tape .Numbers don't lie.There is about 40%more filling work and materials standing sheets up.The suppliers sell more product to the amatures.Very smart of the suppliers to market this way to the unsuspecting.Wow saved alot of $$$ on board but to finish it cost me double lol.


sorry mudzlinger, had some computer issues so I couldnt get on net for awhile

You are correct to a point..you use more material in tape, but not much more if any in mud..a 25ft wall is a bad comparison..in a house, you would have 25ft or less walls a lot..this is another reason a lot of homes are laid down...me from the commercial side of it mainly, when you have 10ft or less high walls that are 300ft long, it is a lot faster to run standups and not have to go back and cross off butts..me, given I run 8-10 flats and 10-12 on butts, flats get ran first then butts...if there are no butts, your done

also, as far as tape is concerned, taping flats stood up, for me, isn't a big deal either..string tape on a lay down wall 300ft long and you have some major stretch and your stopping and pushing tape out...laid down, this isn't an issue...technically, you can only get about 95lf out of a tube, but you get my point I think


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## d-rock

on metal stud we stand everything. its super quick, and the tapers don't care as long as the seams are tight and screwed off properly. the advantage of standups is 1 man vs. 2


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## 2buckcanuck

steel stud is basically designed for stand ups.your suppose to start your run from one side (i dont remember so a rocker will half to explain which side,been awhile for me),lets say it's open side for now,so when drywaller starts run from proper side joints sit nice and level,start from wrong side it's oh no fix fix,butt joints on steal could end up on a twisted /uneven stud which means more fixing ,but butts no big deal if your rocker is good.stand up drywall also provides a better fire rating too ,(using f/c of coarse)and steel stud walls usually just a partition wall bearing no weight,they can be built to take some load but not going there.....
now wood, the only place to me you can use stand ups is in a basement (year old) where house has already settled ,when they can only get eights down there and then they lay them down,you get a butt every four feet,why do they do this????
plus wood has a crown in it,when a framer frames a exterior wall they are suppose to lay studs crown up,same with interiors,so with out getting into detail the crown can affect you,plus drywall is to be staggered and hooked in houses,drywall adds strength to a house,dont stagger your ceilings and see what happens (or walls)you may get away with standing up drywall in a old house (reno) but in a new house,your building crack houses then,or taking crack if you do


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## D's

I've got a school coming up with twelve foot ceilings, typical room is 24' square. Will standups still work? Whats the best way to break up the work amongst the crew if so?

Thanks,
D'S


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## Axecutioner-B

My opinion is horizontal makes for a stronger wall. Running boards perpendicular to the framing is just stronger. Im NOT saying standups dont have their place, just that given the choice i would rather lay the boards down.
________
VAPOR BROTHERS PRICE


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## tricounty dwall

no its in Georgetown sc. But id like to stand them up, its faster on hanging and on finishing i can box up to 12' at least off the ground. But my thing is i dont want all the butts that close. lay down u can start with a 2' rip. if the ceiling wasnt so high it would be a easy decision. I tried to order 16' sheets but they wont bc the order isnt big enough


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## d-rock

D's said:


> I've got a school coming up with twelve foot ceilings, typical room is 24' square. Will standups still work? Whats the best way to break up the work amongst the crew if so?
> 
> Thanks,
> D'S


 1 man per room using 12' boards all stood up. you can use 10's as well, and have another guy come in behind and do tops, just load the baker with pre cuts.No need to stagger the seams. start from the ground up, just make sure the 1st board is straight. the taper should be able to finish tight.


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## tricounty dwall

Axecutioner-B said:


> My opinion is horizontal makes for a stronger wall. Running boards perpendicular to the framing is just stronger. Im NOT saying standups dont have their place, just that given the choice i would rather lay the boards down.


if u have 12' ceilings stand 12' up. put dunnage under it so u are above 12'. Then u have no butts and 1 man can hang if with no topping out.


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## 2buckcanuck

d-rock said:


> 1 man per room using 12' boards all stood up. you can use 10's as well, and have another guy come in behind and do tops, just load the baker with pre cuts.No need to stagger the seams. start from the ground up, just make sure the 1st board is straight. the taper should be able to finish tight.


don't you tilt your first board,say your running left to right,you lean the drywall a 1/16 to 1/8 to the right at top,leave bottom tight.then when you set next sheet keep it tight to bottom,it will over lap,push sheet to the right and it sets right in place tight,no struggling or screaming for some one to push sheet into place so you can screw it:thumbup:


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## d-rock

2buckcanuck said:


> don't you tilt your first board,say your running left to right,you lean the drywall a 1/16 to 1/8 to the right at top,leave bottom tight.then when you set next sheet keep it tight to bottom,it will over lap,push sheet to the right and it sets right in place tight,no struggling or screaming for some one to push sheet into place so you can screw it:thumbup:


:blink: dont think about it, its not marble. throw it up and screw it off. if the room doesnt have too many cutouts u should be able to do 2 a day urself.


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## D's

Do those roller lifters work well for standups? I've got some boardmates I'm planning on using, I'm sure we'll develop a system after the first couple dozen. I guess I could incentivize my boarders who work hourly by offering a bonus for more than x sheets per day. I should highlight to the framer how important crowning and OC spacing will be too. I think it's all 2x4 construction with blocking at 4' and 8'. 
Thanks,
D'S


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## penandscale

tricounty dwall said:


> no its in Georgetown sc. But id like to stand them up, its faster on hanging and on finishing i can box up to 12' at least off the ground. But my thing is i dont want all the butts that close. lay down u can start with a 2' rip. if the ceiling wasnt so high it would be a easy decision. I tried to order 16' sheets but they wont bc the order isnt big enough


use 12's and 10's least amount of waste cutting 12 on second sheet to 6'-6"
10 on top balance of 12' on top of 10' to deck


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## DSJOHN

When I do stand ups in a house[10-12' walls] in a room that calls for it,I dont drop the seam on framing-I go about 4" past and splice sheets with 1x3 strapping[cant do this if foamed] try it sometime,much faster and seam is stronger[IMO] not trying to have a screw catch 3/8 " of the stud!I hang most garage walls this way,that are over 8'.


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## proficient Mudder

kind of a old post, but thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

The advantages of using standup boards on metal studs is less man power to lay up walls and better for wall molding when laying out grid.
The disadvantage is some finishers that don't understand what it takes to make a slick full finish and it looks like telephone poles every 4ft.
The disadvantage of stand ups on wood framing is that the wood is never as straight as metal and you wont have a even stringed wall, so low to high spots is easier to straighten with 8ft-12ft board versus 4 ft.

So to answer the original Question, I like verticals on metal and horizontals on wood.

Bill


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## joepro0000

tricounty dwall said:


> im wondering the same thing. I just signed a contrat on a tractor supply. Its going in a old wal mart. I have to do a 180 ft demising wall. Its steel studs with a expansion every 30'. its going to the deck which pitches 19'-22'. Ceiling is existing at 16'. They are tearing a big piece out so i can do the wall. So with the expansin joint going evey 30' would u lay dow or stand up? Ive always layed down all long walls like that. But i saw pixs of how one guy here ran a 12 then a 10 stand up so butts were stagered. Im about a week or 2 from starting the framing


 
Buy some 16 fters and stand them up and split the top in half 8' for one and 8' for the other no waster. Will fly so quickly and make some good money.


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## drywallOne

depends on the situation, stand ups for anything with a ceiling under 12 feet ...just get 12 foot board,even with a 24 foot wall with no ceiling i would rather run a continuous butjoint for the taper...breaking the joint costs time and any good taped using machines or hand tools should be able to build it out enough so the human eye could not see it.

On fire rated walls all drywall should be stood up with a min of 12 inch breaks on the buts...also by code all joints must have steel behind them....least that's the way it is where i live


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## PainterJoe

joepro0000 said:


> Stands ups all the time, unless there will be no butt joints, then horizontal.


I'm with you, joepro0000. 
It just makes sense. 
Stand up for stand ups. Ha!
-
_______________
-
Roofing Indianapolis is a full-time job, too.


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## moore

Never had much luck with railroading . Sheet rock has a grain. Just like wood.
It's much stronger horizontal . Metal stud work may be OK [ don't know]
With wood studs stud in,, stud out,,stud in,,stud out,, even with the best of framers. Baseboard a clusterdrop ceiling a cluster . Stand ups are wavy . Factory trusses or stick built trusses will move. No ceiling should ever be railroaded. Yes I know when trusses change direction a sheet or two has to be railroaded,, But railroading just to eliminate butt joints means your scared of a butt joint .


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## joepro0000

moore said:


> Never had much luck with railroading . Sheet rock has a grain. Just like wood.
> It's much stronger horizontal . Metal stud work may be OK [ don't know]
> With wood studs stud in,, stud out,,stud in,,stud out,, even with the best of framers. Baseboard a clusterdrop ceiling a cluster . Stand ups are wavy . Factory trusses or stick built trusses will move. No ceiling should ever be railroaded. Yes I know when trusses change direction a sheet or two has to be railroaded,, But railroading just to eliminate butt joints means your scared of a butt joint .


 
I understand you know, your dealing with wood framed partitions. Sorry, I was thinking of metal studs, have been years since I seen wood framed walls. With metal studs you get no rail-roading. I actually love finishing butt joints, its fun to float out and see how good your floating skills are. But in production work, its a waste of time.


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## chris

StandUps should really be called Bendovers or Bunch a Butts . Not a big fan of standups,maybe in a garage to save $ {9' ceil} instead of 54"also framing has to be near perfect and steel framing doesnt really help


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## mudslingr

chris said:


> StandUps should really be called Bendovers or Bunch a Butts . Not a big fan of standups,maybe in a garage to save $ {9' ceil} instead of 54"also framing has to be near perfect and steel framing doesnt really help


I'm with you chris ! But then, if you want stand ups I want more money for taping.:yes:


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## 2buckcanuck

mudslingr said:


> I'm with you chris ! But then, if you want stand ups I want more money for taping.:yes:


I don't mind if they do it in a garage, Plus you know what our winters are like Sir mudslingr (and yours are worse where you are). Most garages go to crap with the extreme temperature changes. I find when most builders want the garage finished, they want it to look good from the road, or.....they don't expect you to check with a light. They know their going to look like crap in a few years, their just a selling point.

I find their faster to drywall, and tape, more easy to do stand ups with boxes, rather than some horizontal joint 8 feet off the ground. and no butt joints.....maybe. and technically, the walls should be gas/fire sealed when touching interior walls......stand ups are better for that, but ours are insulated in Canuck land, so they get away with laying down.

We got a garage 14' high to do this week:furious:


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## SlimPickins

I like standups on closet sides. And when it's a short wall and I can break the seam over the door and have a little itty bitty seam at the header.....especially on smooth, as many tape joints as I can avoid, I will.


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> I like standups on closet sides. And when it's a short wall and I can break the seam over the door and have a little itty bitty seam at the header.....especially on smooth, as many tape joints as I can avoid, I will.


Are you drunk or something tonight
That's what your suppose to do:yes::jester:


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> Are you drunk or something tonight
> That's what your suppose to do:yes::jester:


I know, I felt like stating the obvious. Notice I didn't extol the virtues of standups anywhere else....:whistling2: 

I think standups are for commie pinko loser types who drive camouflage painted golf carts while drinking cosmotinis and making lewd gestures at passing dwarf chickens. (I'm trying to insult as many people as possible)

Oh, and I don't drink. I just feel like typing.


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> I know, I felt like stating the obvious. Notice I didn't extol the virtues of standups anywhere else....:whistling2:
> 
> I think standups are for commie pinko loser types who drive camouflage painted golf carts while drinking cosmotinis and making lewd gestures at passing dwarf chickens. (I'm trying to insult as many people as possible)
> 
> Oh, and I don't drink. I just feel like typing.


well, if your trying to insult everyone, you should of mentioned sheep


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## evolve991

SlimPickins said:


> I like standups on closet sides. And when it's a short wall and I can break the seam over the door and have a little itty bitty seam at the header.....especially on smooth, as many tape joints as I can avoid, I will.


 
Same here but I thought that went without saying unless the builder is cheap and wants you to eat dust and crap sheets. I'll railroad sometimes if its TJIs but I find the crown ups even then. Or partial railroad in a semi hipped room. If the joints look like telephone poles the hangers didn't bother checking the studs out first.


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## SlimPickins

evolve991 said:


> Same here but I thought that went without saying unless the builder is cheap and wants you to eat dust and crap sheets. I'll railroad sometimes if its TJIs but I find the crown ups even then. Or partial railroad in a semi hipped room. If the joints look like telephone poles the hangers didn't bother checking the studs out first.


I think you guys would be surprised how many guys here don't use stand-ups to save board. There's a lot of picture-framing openings. Personally, I'd rather finish two little butts over a larger window if I know that it's going to save at least a sheet....sheets add up quick. I think guys here are looking to hang as much footage as they can, and don't care if they fill the dump trailer on a tiny cracker-jack. I'm not that guy...I like tight board counts, it keeps me on my toes.


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## super rocker

First taper in the world who wants MORE butt joints.


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## evolve991

SlimPickins said:


> I think you guys would be surprised how many guys here don't use stand-ups to save board. There's a lot of picture-framing openings. Personally, I'd rather finish two little butts over a larger window if I know that it's going to save at least a sheet....sheets add up quick. I think guys here are looking to hang as much footage as they can, and don't care if they fill the dump trailer on a tiny cracker-jack. I'm not that guy...I like tight board counts, it keeps me on my toes.


:thumbup::thumbsup:

If you can save sheets by standing some up you can roll without worrying about being short.Or you can either fill the dumpster or run short on rock. I wonder which kind of hangers will get the calls when money is tight? Hmmm lets see....less sheets,less tonnage in the dumpster,happier finisher..."yeah let's call the Stackwhackers honey,they got done fast last time! Hmmm maybe I should pick up a case of Coors Light so they don't have to go out at lunch"...yeah I know I just turned a Standup topic into a sheet count topic but it kinda goes hand in hand ....


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## 2buckcanuck

SlimPickins said:


> I think you guys would be surprised how many guys here don't use stand-ups to save board. There's a lot of picture-framing openings. Personally, I'd rather finish two little butts over a larger window if I know that it's going to save at least a sheet....sheets add up quick. I think guys here are looking to hang as much footage as they can, and don't care if they fill the dump trailer on a tiny cracker-jack. I'm not that guy...I like tight board counts, it keeps me on my toes.




The whole Idea is least amount of joints as possible.
As I have always stated, we get to follow really good rockers where I live. The Windows get picture cut out period. scrap be damned.call backs cost more than a few sheets of rock.

It's hard to explain but, rockers who do more rip cuts, rather than 4 foot chopped ends, are better. Their side walls in the closet sides are stood up, not 2 chopped ends, Returns are one piece, not a bunch of scraps. if they must put a joint above the door, it's almost dead middle. They get a lot of 54 board, just to span door ways and things better.

Too hard to explain a good rock job by typing. All I know is I will b1tch if the rocker leaves too many joints above windows and doors etc......I will not guarantee they will not crack......period


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## moore

Years ago an old timer [carpenter] told me . you should never break the joint over a door or window. At the time i thought he was just a old know it all .
,,,, but after years of fixing those cracks, I now see where the the old dude was coming from. Those headers buckle over time [1 year] and crack,, but then again there's the diagonal cracks at the top of the windows and doors,, that are most common due to trusses walking. [ hallways mostly].
:blink: what do you do . either way. I BAN FACTORY TRUSSES!


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## joepro0000

moore said:


> Years ago an old timer [carpenter] told me . you should never break the joint over a door or window. At the time i thought he was just a old know it all .
> ,,,, but after years of fixing those cracks, I now see where the the old dude was coming from. Those headers buckle over time [1 year] and crack,, but then again there's the diagonal cracks at the top of the windows and doors,, that are most common due to trusses walking. [ hallways mostly].
> :blink: what do you do . either way. I BAN FACTORY TRUSSES!


I agree, we stand up all our drywall, and on doors, we router out the openings (2 sides) an thats it. Just factory to factory, not butts. Never had problems. But I seem when people hang drywall and put joints in the windows/doors, the door trim becomes humped out or the knockdown door frames won't fit in easily.


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## joepro0000

chris said:


> StandUps should really be called Bendovers or Bunch a Butts . Not a big fan of standups,maybe in a garage to save $ {9' ceil} instead of 54"also framing has to be near perfect and steel framing doesnt really help


 
We frame all are jobs here, and make sure our studs every dead on center every 48". Is not really hard, just layout a 30 ft tape and make your 16"s or 24"s:thumbsup:


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## SlimPickins

Here's my deal...

The production guy I used to hang for was notoriously tight on counts. Most guys were a couple short. I was anywhere from 3-5 heavy in most situations. I might 2-butt 2 long headers in a whole house, and I wasn't doing anything ridiculous like laying down 6 16" butts to finish a short wall either (I HAVE seen this done on his houses from other hangers). I don't see any reason to balk at a couple of extra joints that are going to get covered when you coat the wrapped window anyway, or a 14" butt that is 12" away from another butt....you're already there, and it's one extra pass. If you're afraid of butt joints you might want to rethink your methods....HOWEVER, smoothwall is another game altogether....stock it heavy so I can make as few joints as possible. Conscientious hanging just takes a little bit of thought, and you can save 5-10% on rock if you do it right. Did I mention that I still got paid to hang ALL sheets present? He made money on it twice, so it wasn't a big deal to pay me full price for the hang.

Hey Moore....I'm sure you've seen those big long jagged cracks where there aren't any butt joints, right? A properly built header won't crack...and if it wasn't properly built I don't have to warranty it.:thumbsup:


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## chris

If ahanger has chance to tape they should.A good hanger can only become great if he or she knows concept of tapin. Even better if they tape/finish for atleast a yearalso math skills help:whistling2:


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## d-rock

in commercial work, for PROPER FIRE RATING, UL RATINGS are with boards stood up . On metal stud you stand em up, better, faster, cheaper. On wood stud, you railroad. If properly seamed and fastened, properly finished, jobs will look good either way. There is no STRUCTURAL benefit to sheetrock direction on wood studs, on metal studs rock is structural because it tightens everything up, such as hollow metal welded door frames, corners, soffits etc.. With wood framing everything is nailed beforehand. Most times in commercial work, the framer is sort of 'rocking' as he goes along, thats why the framer and rocker/taper are same crew.In NYC commercial world, carpenters are framers and rockers, tapers are just tapers. Carpenters also do all the bead work.


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## Bill from Indy

I have had bad experiences with carpenters putting bead on..to where i despise it...but that is how it is done here also "union"

I had a carpenter one time....no joke...put on a **** ton of bead around reveal mullions...he put it all on with string line and dsa...I spent the better part of a day scraping off the damn glue to tape it..company I worked for then paper taped all there bead...needless to say, it didn't happen on 2nd floor...I went to the guy with bazooka in one hand and a shiny new clincher and staple gun in other and asked him which hand he wanted...he learned how to use a clincher pretty fast


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## Bevelation

chris said:


> If ahanger has chance to tape they should.A good hanger can only become great if he or she knows concept of tapin. Even better if they tape/finish for atleast a yearalso math skills help:whistling2:


 I disagree.
The best boarder I have ever taped behind only knows theory aspects of taping all from what he's heard, and has never put his hand to a knife or trowel.

I have also witnessed a couple boarding teams hang whilst seldom using a tape measure, and they did a decent job.


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## chris

I feel it helps in the 2nd guessing part,if you have taped you dont need to ask or call taper and ask how you want it hung. Framers should rock before they frame... get the picture.Not sayin hangers that dont tape arnt any good just think knowing taping only benefits them,makes taper happyand we all like to keep tapers happy ..Right:yes:


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## Bevelation

chris said:


> I feel it helps in the 2nd guessing part,if you have taped you dont need to ask or call taper and ask how you want it hung. Framers should rock before they frame... get the picture.Not sayin hangers that dont tape arnt any good just think knowing taping only benefits them,makes taper happyand we all like to keep tapers happy ..Right:yes:


 If a framer gives a damn, he will do a good job and in turn the boarders will have an easier time. If a boarder gives a damn, he will do the best he can to make the walls and ceilings easier to finish. 

If a framer doesn't give a damn, how could knowing how to board do him any good if it doesn't change his attitude?

When I tried painting, I learned nothing that could benefit me on the taping end of things. If there ever was anything I needed to improve on with taping, it had to involve my attitude toward wanting a change, and nothing to do with the next process.


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## chris

Bevelation said:


> If a framer gives a damn, he will do a good job and in turn the boarders will have an easier time. If a boarder gives a damn, he will do the best he can to make the walls and ceilings easier to finish.
> 
> If a framer doesn't give a damn, how could knowing how to board do him any good if it doesn't change his attitude?
> 
> When I tried painting, I learned nothing that could benefit me on the taping end of things. If there ever was anything I needed to improve on with taping, it had to involve my attitude toward wanting a change, and nothing to do with the next process.


have you ever done T bar ceilings?It has sharpened my taping skills coming in after tape and paint was done. Where wall angle goes over outside corners,always thought was filled and flush til putting angle on,now on comm. grid jobs I load up corners even more where angle goes and check with edge. A 12" knife really isnt enough. Never said taper should paint first:no:Bad attitudes dont last very long they can go home and lik there nuttsZ or put on a smile:yes:


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## ubcboardguy

i always stand my sheets up i have never laid my sheets down and i doubt i ever will. i am a union carpenter and most of our finishers are skilled enough. it is faster and easier to hang 50 sheets a day alone to stand it up


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## fr8train

ubc, do you do commercial or residential?


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## SlimPickins

ubcboardguy said:


> i always stand my sheets up i have never laid my sheets down and i doubt i ever will. *i am a union carpenter* and most of our finishers are skilled enough. it is faster and easier to hang 50 sheets a day alone to stand it up


:whistling2:


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## P.A. ROCKER

ubcboardguy said:


> i always stand my sheets up i have never laid my sheets down and i doubt i ever will. i am a union carpenter and most of our finishers are skilled enough. it is faster and easier to hang 50 sheets a day alone to stand it up


 
Union guys don't hang 50 sheets a day, thats 2400 sq ft. Who are you kidding. :lol: I doubt they can avarage 50 eight footers.


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## Zendik

D's said:


> I've got a school coming up with twelve foot ceilings, typical room is 24' square. Will standups still work? Whats the best way to break up the work amongst the crew if so?
> 
> Thanks,
> D'S


You take your footage and your schedule to figure out your production rate then add 6 or so percent and tell your crew if they hit that number they go home with 8.

Say you have 96000 sq ft and 3 weeks to hang it. 
That's 6400 sq ft a day and say you have 6 hangers who work in pairs that's 2133 sq ft for each two man team or 44 sheets. Now add your 6%, round it off and your production rate is 46 sheets per two man team a day. They hit that number before 3:30 they go home with 8.

Let them hang it however the tapers want it.


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## 2buckcanuck

Zendik said:


> Let them hang it however the tapers want it.


I don't think I've ever heard that said before:blink::blink::blink::blink:


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> I don't think I've ever heard that said before:blink::blink::blink::blink:


I say that every time I start a "hang only" job. 

"You just tell me how you want it hung, and that's the way I'll hang it"


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## moore

Stand ups will **** up the baseboard every time ...[wood framing]


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## hanger

victorydrywall said:


> Hello all,
> I'm interested to hear your thoughts on standing up sheets. I only do on steel studs and in certain situations where butt joints can be avoided. My boss is pretty big on no butt joints due to tapers who are more than capable but less than willing to finish to their potential. They complain that it is harder on them to run the flats due to the reaching and bending involved. In theory, it makes sense that it would be easier to finish. In reality, it can make boards hung on sloppily framed walls seem to have a 9' to 12' butt joint every 4'. I'd love to hear from some tapers (I'm a framer/hanger) on this. Thanks.


 im a hanger of 20 years now it depends on the framing on how i hang it if its framed sloppy you can get you self in a mess if you stand it up so i lay it all down take no chances of having a bunch of bastard joints but thats just my opinion


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## hanger

Zendik said:


> You take your footage and your schedule to figure out your production rate then add 6 or so percent and tell your crew if they hit that number they go home with 8.
> 
> Say you have 96000 sq ft and 3 weeks to hang it.
> That's 6400 sq ft a day and say you have 6 hangers who work in pairs that's 2133 sq ft for each two man team or 44 sheets. Now add your 6%, round it off and your production rate is 46 sheets per two man team a day. They hit that number before 3:30 they go home with 8.
> 
> Let them hang it however the tapers want it.


 depends on where u have to hang it i have seen times in commercial like hospitals where u have to top it out off a scaffold when u have to cut around everything you gear way down try to make up for it on 8ft stuff


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## hanger

SlimPickins said:


> I say that every time I start a "hang only" job.
> 
> "You just tell me how you want it hung, and that's the way I'll hang it"


 thats the way it ought to be the man with the checkbook..i hang it the way he wants:thumbsup:


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## hanger

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Union guys don't hang 50 sheets a day, thats 2400 sq ft. Who are you kidding. :lol: I doubt they can avarage 50 eight footers.


 you exzactly right ....myself im a peice worker by the ft..so i have to stay at it:thumbup:


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## Zendik

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Union guys don't hang 50 sheets a day, thats 2400 sq ft. Who are you kidding. :lol: I doubt they can avarage 50 eight footers.


Truth.

Hawaii carpenters union requires 60 a day regardless of length.


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## chris

Zendik said:


> Truth.
> 
> Hawaii carpenters union requires 60 a day regardless of length.


 Houses? Comm.?? gravy all wall jobs maybe? Ive been on jobs where 3 man crews have put up 100 or better in a hour. Truth. No 1 man is going to put up 60 in a cutup lil house by himself unless he is fantastic... maybe Im wrong but the lids would be tuff and time consuming by yourself. Maybe like a crackerjack house ... maybe


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## moore

Monday ..the hangers hung A cracker-box for me..148 4x12 sheets in 9 hours....4 men ..Straight 8 with 1

-10' vault ceiling and 2 car garage 11' I really needed this home hung asap,,,,And that's what they gave me . They scrapped and swept before they left.... I'M proud of my boys :yes:..There subs,,and I pay them well.
They work hard for every penny ..:yes:


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## P.A. ROCKER

moore said:


> Monday ..the hangers hung A cracker-box for me..148 4x12 sheets in 9 hours....4 men ..Straight 8 with 1
> 
> -10' vault ceiling and 2 car garage 11' I really needed this home hung asap,,,,And that's what they gave me . They scrapped and swept before they left.... I'M proud of my boys :yes:..There subs,,and I pay them well.
> They work hard for every penny ..:yes:


Thats a good day! Not good enough in Hawaii though. Zendik says they gotta get 240. In my neck of the woods union guys do 20. Thats likely why they can't compete and sit at the hall. Never heard of unions doing any residential, ever.:yes:


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## grid ninja

*rocker*

I have been a rocker all my life ,and have always herd stories about super rockers. But most of them are blowhards that found some gravy somewhere, and finally figured out that if you go to work and work hard your going to hang some rock , I worked the same. Union non union or sub or bid . I am going to make some money. so just know if you are in a room and i am in a room hanging boar or running grid we are racing:jester:


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## SlimPickins

chris said:


> Houses? Comm.?? gravy all wall jobs maybe? Ive been on jobs *where 3 man crews have put up 100 or better in a hour*. Truth. No 1 man is going to put up 60 in a cutup lil house by himself unless he is fantastic... maybe Im wrong but the lids would be tuff and time consuming by yourself. Maybe like a crackerjack house ... maybe


I'm sorry, I gotta call bullsh!t on this one. That's more than 30 sheets each........in an hour?

My best day on a residential job, 8' lids with an 11 ft. clip (10 sheets worth) was 54 12 footers, by myself, with a hoist. I'm not the fastest hanger, I know this, but they were screwed off and all the leftover butts were hung as well.


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## chris

sounds like you are good hanger. We run into jobs every so often where 100 shhets a hour is not very difficult. I cant do it but have seen it done . On bigger jobs when more than 1 hanging crew is there its a race. Alot of butts to do and screwing off but they got up there footage (claimed it) I dont care for this style of hanging beings Im taping:furious: . Graaavvvvyyy allll walllls:thumbsup:


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## SlimPickins

chris said:


> sounds like you are good hanger. We run into jobs every so often where 100 shhets a hour is not very difficult. I cant do it but have seen it done . On bigger jobs when more than 1 hanging crew is there its a race. Alot of butts to do and screwing off but they got up there footage (claimed it) I dont care for this style of hanging beings Im taping:furious: . Graaavvvvyyy allll walllls:thumbsup:


My apologies for calling bullsh!t then...I've never been in a a situation where that type of hanging was possible. I'd love to make footage for a couple of days on a job like that....then go somewhere else when it was time for top-out:laughing:


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## ubcboardguy

fr8train said:


> ubc, do you do commercial or residential?


commercial pretty much all metal studs very straigh walls


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## ubcboardguy

P.A. ROCKER said:


> Union guys don't hang 50 sheets a day, thats 2400 sq ft. Who are you kidding. :lol: I doubt they can avarage 50 eight footers.





your right we average whatever the contractor wants us to hang a day depending on what tools we are supplied with. nobody gives us auto feed guns and some contractors dont give us routers. also we have to top off most rooms and we rarely hang 1/2'' 8 footers most of the time we are hanging 5/8'' 10 or 12 footers. we also have to screw off slammers, back cut board for sliding behind metal jambs and also are not strictly drywall hangers. further more hanging 50 sheets a day alone is ****ed up. sure when you are 30 its not a big deal come 60 you cant move. im sure your a good board hanger but your probably not very great at anything else. give me a router and a shooter and i could and have hung 50 sheets a day.


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## SlimPickins

ubcboardguy said:


> further more hanging 50 sheets a day alone is ****ed up. sure when you are 30 its not a big deal come 60 you cant move. im sure your a good board hanger but your probably not very great at anything else.


I'm trying to figure out if this comment was directed at me.:confused1: 

In my defense, I said my BEST day was 54 12' sheets, and yes I use a router. No strip gun though, I rock it old school :laughing: On relatively cut-up residential I average 1250 ft. a day, that's with arches, window wraps, closet wraps, scrapped out, etc. 

As for "not very great at anything else"....well, no point in arguing about THAT. You've got me all dialed in.....

Now, if this comment was NOT directed at me, I'll go bury my head in the sand now:whistling2:


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## moore

I..alone.. can average 20 boards a day without the rotozipper.


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> I..alone.. can average 20 boards a day without the rotozipper.


Well, the time you'd save using the router would get you up to 26, and then you could be "awesome" like me :laughing::whistling2:

It just took me 5 days to hang 5000 ft. And it was NASTY. However, it's going to be a breeze to tape now (well, except for the 200 ft. of cornerbead, and the 2 rolls of no-coat (inside corners and outside too....no 45's, all odd-ball angles ), and the weird joints from the Green Glue, and the hand texture and the....wait a minute.....it's NOT going to be a breeze


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## 2buckcanuck

ubcboardguy said:


> your right we average whatever the contractor wants us to hang a day depending on what tools we are supplied with. nobody gives us auto feed guns and some contractors dont give us routers. also we have to top off most rooms and we rarely hang 1/2'' 8 footers most of the time we are hanging 5/8'' 10 or 12 footers. we also have to screw off slammers, back cut board for sliding behind metal jambs and also are not strictly drywall hangers. further more hanging 50 sheets a day alone is ****ed up. sure when you are 30 its not a big deal come 60 you cant move. im sure your a good board hanger but your probably not very great at anything else. give me a router and a shooter and i could and have hung 50 sheets a day.


Not going to argue union vs private sector thing, but it's too hard to argue residential vs commercial work,or hour vs piece work,,,, but I have been on both sides of the tracks. But commercial can be set up where you can get crazy amounts up one day, then barely nothing the next. but it all evens out in the wash by the end of the week. Resi you will get a more balanced amount out on average each week, till you come upon a wicked shack. But hey, thats when the smart P/W will charge more , so even there, it should also balance out in the wash too so.......


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## SlimPickins

2buckcanuck said:


> But hey, thats when the smart P/W will charge more , so even there, it should also balance out in the wash too so.......


I know a couple of guys who bid everything the same, and I don't understand how/why. Sometimes they lose their ass, and sometimes they make a killing. I guess it comes out in the wash for them too. I'd rather make decent money on all of them, or not get them. Sure, I make mistakes sometimes and get paid less than I would like, but some stuff is just so whacked out it's tough to put a price on it (at least one that won't give the bid seeker a coronary:laughing


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## Zendik

chris said:


> Houses? Comm.?? gravy all wall jobs maybe? Ive been on jobs where 3 man crews have put up 100 or better in a hour. Truth. No 1 man is going to put up 60 in a cutup lil house by himself unless he is fantastic... maybe Im wrong but the lids would be tuff and time consuming by yourself. Maybe like a crackerjack house ... maybe


Every high rise building, condo, office, hotel, is union built in Hawaii.
Every single last one.

You have to deal with a crap load of metal studs slammed to one side by other trades, slammer studs mangled and buckets of months old piss stashed in the corners. 

Yes. I've dealt with people who choose to otherwise not believe what goes on in Hawaii. These were guys in the 80s and 90s that thought coming to work in Hawaii was going to be a vacation only to be laid off after 3 hours. 

I found this true in regards to the union in general as well.

Seen it so many times its stupid.

If you're brought up whacking shacks and consider yourself a Lord of Board and get thrust into a large union commercial job its a whole new ball game. May as well call it another trade.

Most shack whackers are not metal stud framers then asking them to slam an acoustic ceiling leaves them baffled. 

Yes. It's all the same trade in the commercial world.

Whenever I seen people trash unions it for one of two reasons.
1. They never worked union and juts pass along the usual rhetoric.
2. They got hired by a union shop and just couldn't handle it and got their egos hurt.

Either way this leaves for people that will hate unions regardless of what union do. 

60 sheets a day is 7.5 sheets an hour. You're not moving slow.


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## super rocker

Zendik said:


> Every high rise building, condo, office, hotel, is union built in Hawaii.
> Every single last one.
> 
> You have to deal with a crap load of metal studs slammed to one side by other trades, slammer studs mangled and buckets of months old piss stashed in the corners.
> 
> Yes. I've dealt with people who choose to otherwise not believe what goes on in Hawaii. These were guys in the 80s and 90s that thought coming to work in Hawaii was going to be a vacation only to be laid off after 3 hours.
> 
> I found this true in regards to the union in general as well.
> 
> Seen it so many times its stupid.
> 
> If you're brought up whacking shacks and consider yourself a Lord of Board and get thrust into a large union commercial job its a whole new ball game. May as well call it another trade.
> 
> Most shack whackers are not metal stud framers then asking them to slam an acoustic ceiling leaves them baffled.
> 
> Yes. It's all the same trade in the commercial world.
> 
> Whenever I seen people trash unions it for one of two reasons.
> 1. They never worked union and juts pass along the usual rhetoric.
> 2. They got hired by a union shop and just couldn't handle it and got their egos hurt.
> 
> Either way this leaves for people that will hate unions regardless of what union do.
> 
> 60 sheets a day is 7.5 sheets an hour. You're not moving slow.


 3. We have worked union jobs and realized far too many gold brickers were making the same wage as the legitimate hangers and could not tolerate it.
4.Realized unions ruined this country and couldn't tolerate it.
5. Hated working around 7 other trades and they all are more important than us.


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## P.A. ROCKER

ubcboardguy said:


> your right.
> depending on what tools we are supplied with.
> im sure your a good board hanger but your probably not very great at anything else.


 I supply ALL my own tools to frame (wood, steel), hang, finish, acoustical ceilings, EIFS and do wood trim at production levels. And built my own home to boot. But you're right I'm not very great at anything else.:thumbup:


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## moore

''give me a router and a shooter and i could and have hung 50 sheets a day. ''



So what do you use ?? OR did ? Is this your first time on a P/C old man??? Why don't you own any tools ??? Are you a crack-head??

In my crazy way of thinking ...supplies are materials ..tools are what the d/c should have already... I've read this post a few times ,,and it still don't make sense ,,,and coming from me :blink: well........................


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## chris

Zendik said:


> Every high rise building, condo, office, hotel, is union built in Hawaii.
> Every single last one.
> 
> You have to deal with a crap load of metal studs slammed to one side by other trades, slammer studs mangled and buckets of months old piss stashed in the corners.
> 
> Yes. I've dealt with people who choose to otherwise not believe what goes on in Hawaii. These were guys in the 80s and 90s that thought coming to work in Hawaii was going to be a vacation only to be laid off after 3 hours.
> 
> I found this true in regards to the union in general as well.
> 
> Seen it so many times its stupid.
> 
> If you're brought up whacking shacks and consider yourself a Lord of Board and get thrust into a large union commercial job its a whole new ball game. May as well call it another trade.
> 
> Most shack whackers are not metal stud framers then asking them to slam an acoustic ceiling leaves them baffled.
> 
> Yes. It's all the same trade in the commercial world.
> 
> Whenever I seen people trash unions it for one of two reasons.
> 1. They never worked union and juts pass along the usual rhetoric.
> 2. They got hired by a union shop and just couldn't handle it and got their egos hurt.
> 
> Either way this leaves for people that will hate unions regardless of what union do.
> 
> 60 sheets a day is 7.5 sheets an hour. You're not moving slow.


 Gravy:yes:


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## SlimPickins

moore said:


> ''give me a router and a shooter and i could and have hung 50 sheets a day. ''
> 
> 
> 
> So what do you use ?? OR did ? Is this your first time on a P/C old man??? Why don't you own any tools ??? Are you a crack-head??
> 
> In my crazy way of thinking ...supplies are materials ..tools are what the d/c should have already... I've read this post a few times ,,and it still don't make sense ,,,and coming from me :blink: well........................


:wheelchair: "Son, why you whippersnappers don't know what work IS! We used to hafta carry the drywall from the store to the job....and then hang 40 sheets a day with no spinning gizmos to cut out 'lectricity thingamabobs, hell, we didn't even HAVE 'lectricity! We nailed ever'thin'!":wheelchair:


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## moore

SlimPickins said:


> :wheelchair: "Son, why you whippersnappers don't know what work IS! We used to hafta carry the drywall from the store to the job....and then hang 40 sheets a day with no spinning gizmos to cut out 'lectricity thingamabobs, hell, we didn't even HAVE 'lectricity! We nailed ever'thin'!":wheelchair:


PMP!!!:lol:


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## 2buckcanuck

Zendik said:


> Every high rise building, condo, office, hotel, is union built in Hawaii.
> Every single last one.
> 
> You have to deal with a crap load of metal studs slammed to one side by other trades, slammer studs mangled and buckets of months old piss stashed in the corners.
> 
> Yes. I've dealt with people who choose to otherwise not believe what goes on in Hawaii. These were guys in the 80s and 90s that thought coming to work in Hawaii was going to be a vacation only to be laid off after 3 hours.
> 
> I found this true in regards to the union in general as well.
> 
> Seen it so many times its stupid.
> 
> If you're brought up whacking shacks and consider yourself a Lord of Board and get thrust into a large union commercial job its a whole new ball game. May as well call it another trade.
> 
> Most shack whackers are not metal stud framers then asking them to slam an acoustic ceiling leaves them baffled.
> 
> Yes. It's all the same trade in the commercial world.
> 
> Whenever I seen people trash unions it for one of two reasons.
> 1. They never worked union and juts pass along the usual rhetoric.
> 2. They got hired by a union shop and just couldn't handle it and got their egos hurt.
> 
> Either way this leaves for people that will hate unions regardless of what union do.
> 
> 60 sheets a day is 7.5 sheets an hour. You're not moving slow.


I actually will agree with you, not that I loved those type of jobs,,,, but,,,, I have been on them (due to circumstance). Some of the steel stud guys were excellent, along with some of the hangers. Now notice I did not say all of them, but those that did , knew their stuff and could fly. The hour/union thing was not my cup of tea though, too much like factory work, or a whole different world. Would take too long to type and explain. But personally with me, I found that those that knew their stuff, got pushed too hard to make up for the slackers, who made the same pay as you. That's where I found things to be unfair IMO:yes:

But when it came to the tapers, it was dear lord, what a bunch of morons. Unfortunately Zendik, I'm sure you will agree with my last statement


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## chris

Zendik said:


> Every high rise building, condo, office, hotel, is union built in Hawaii.
> Every single last one. Not every comm. building is union in Hawaii.12 yrs ago we had the pleasure to do an old folks home there.Frame,hang and tape. Also fireproof. No union on our part,hell the general told us we COULDNT hire ANY locals. Disguisting working conditions
> 
> You have to deal with a crap load of metal studs slammed to one side by other trades, slammer studs mangled and buckets of months old piss stashed in the corners.
> 
> Yes. I've dealt with people who choose to otherwise not believe what goes on in Hawaii. These were guys in the 80s and 90s that thought coming to work in Hawaii was going to be a vacation only to be laid off after 3 hours.
> 
> I found this true in regards to the union in general as well.
> 
> Seen it so many times its stupid.
> 
> If you're brought up whacking shacks and consider yourself a Lord of Board and get thrust into a large union commercial job its a whole new ball game. May as well call it another trade.
> 
> Most shack whackers are not metal stud framers then asking them to slam an acoustic ceiling leaves them baffled. :blink: slam what
> 
> Yes. It's all the same trade in the commercial world.
> 
> Whenever I seen people trash unions it for one of two reasons.
> 1. They never worked union and juts pass along the usual rhetoric.
> 2. They got hired by a union shop and just couldn't handle it and got their egos hurt.
> 
> Either way this leaves for people that will hate unions regardless of what union do.
> 
> 60 sheets a day is 7.5 sheets an hour. You're not moving slow.


shackwackers:blink:


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