# Why are you using ALL PURPOSE MUD ??



## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

I see some of you are using all purpose mud, instead of taping mud and finishing mud, the way I was taught. I view all purpose as a comprimise mud for the amateur handyman but certainly not the professionals. Could some of you explain why you would not use the proper products for the application??:huh:


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## Zendik (Sep 14, 2011)

I use Alien Technology Space Mud.


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

Well, first of all, the name says it all. If you know how to control it's viscosity there is no problem using it from start to finish. But a diy'er will probably screw it up.
I do use yellow(taping) though. Only because it shrinks on the tape coat better than all purpose which makes for a nicer fill on first coat.
Used all purpose for years before yellow(taping) mud even existed. No problems.
I don't have any use for finishing mud. BMITJ is great for all coats.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

What is BMITJ ?

OK just got it - Best Mud in the Joint


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Mudshark said:


> I see some of you are using all purpose mud, instead of taping mud and finishing mud, the way I was taught. I view all purpose as a comprimise mud for the amateur handyman but cetainly not the professionals. Could some of you explain why you would not use the proper products for the application??:huh:


Scrape up red clay ..throw It in a bucket ..I'll make It work.. I say this In protest .


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

i remember asking this exact question a few years ago. they have different mud in the states. we have only lightweight muds up here in canada. our all purpose muds are okay for taping but i don't usually use it on big jobs. i brought some mud back from the states in the summer. beadex all purpose. it was heavy was the first thing i noticed. probably 50% heavier. also it came ready to use out of the box. i did not have to add any water. i seriuosly regret using it on a finish coat because it was the hardest mud i have ever tried to sand. way harder than our light taping muds. i can only assume that a lot of the all purpose muds that the guys in the U.S. are using are similar. it made a great taping mud but i would never use it again for bed or finish coat.


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## Final touch drywall (Mar 30, 2010)

mudslingr said:


> Well, first of all, the name says it all. If you know how to control it's viscosity there is no problem using it from start to finish. .


That about says it all right there.:thumbsup:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mudshark said:


> I see some of you are using all purpose mud, instead of taping mud and finishing mud, the way I was taught. I view all purpose as a comprimise mud for the amateur handyman but cetainly not the professionals. Could some of you explain why you would not use the proper products for the application??:huh:


b/c that's what the DWC gives us to use:whistling2:

It's in the name, it's a all purpose mud.

I prefer my mud now to be a bit tougher to sand now, total opposite from when I first started. I also prefer my mud to be equal in sanding. Mixing up the muds, like bedding with AP then skimming with lite weight, can get screwy. Just the amount of water you add to mud affects it's sanding property. Plus the tougher the mud, the lower grit of sanding paper you can use.

As for porosity, the more you stroke it, the smaller the holes become. Sometimes, I will request for one or two boxes of the lite weight. Just one or two scoops of mud tossed in with the Ap mud, takes away the porosity. Almost turns it into the lite weight mud, except it keeps the tougher sanding properties:yes:


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Just one or two scoops of mud tossed in with the Ap mud, takes away the porosity. Almost turns it into the lite weight mud, except it keeps the tougher sanding properties:yes:


:yes:I like to toss leftover mud from my pan or hawk in with any leftover yellow taping mud for skimming angles which I do last. Makes for nice sanding. Or should I say more of a buff.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

All purpose is good for angles doing bigger to smaller heads. And everything else you all say, Sheetrock taping shrinks and keeps shrinking to much for me, It can catch you out. You think its, Dry, so you coat over it, Then sand, Then go back a month later and its shrunk more. BUT, my area is very humid, So that dosnt help my cause.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

OK, I can see the sanding properties argument in favour of AP. I would think it isnt as strong of a cement though for attaching paper/metal beads. Wouldnt you want a good strong bond there without making comprimises? :blink:


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## mudslingr (Jul 18, 2010)

Mudshark said:


> OK, I can see the sanding properties argument in favour of AP. I would think it isnt as strong of a cement though for attaching paper/metal beads. Wouldnt you want a good strong bond there without making comprimises? :blink:


Just saying that having extra glue in the yellow IS a good thing but not necessarily required. Long times pros would know this but noobs(not saying you are but it sounds like you weren't taping before yellow mud ) might not quite figure out the right consistency right away and end up adding too much water.


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

cazna said:


> All purpose is good for angles doing bigger to smaller heads. And everything else you all say, Sheetrock taping shrinks and keeps shrinking to much for me, It can catch you out. You think its, Dry, so you coat over it, Then sand, Then go back a month later and its shrunk more. BUT, my area is very humid, So that dosnt help my cause.


Your just going to half to invest in a few dehumidifiers Cazna the clean, you know you want a bigger tool shed.:thumbup:

Weather using hotmud or All purpose, your basically F**ked if the rock it self is wet. 

I know you guys use glue, but where I am, they use screws and nails every where, and it's very humid here too in the summer. Since were surrounded by the Great lakes. If the builders b1tched about the joints shrinking back, all the taper did was push on the walls, and watch all the screws pop, and go there, the rock was wet, and now it's dry, so pay me extra to fix it:yes:

So over time, the builders them selves , knew it was in their best interest to provide the proper environment to work in, saved them money in the long run.

I know it would be hard to get that through some peoples heads where you are. But it will make you sound like you really know your stuff, when explaining why you need a good environment to work in.

It will make you sound like a professional :whistling2:


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 9, 2010)

Mudshark said:


> OK, I can see the sanding properties argument in favour of AP. I would think it isnt as strong of a cement though for attaching paper/metal beads. Wouldnt you want a good strong bond there without making comprimises? :blink:


what type of mud you using, I prefer the proroc. but right now were using the CGC (synko) or ..... Cgc is a Canadian division of USG. Maybe one of the yanks can give their colour code.

The colours go like this

Green - is taping mud, good glue, but heavy (60 pds/27 kg)

Red - All purpose, (50 pds/23kg) it's the one we use for everything

Blue- extra lite (40 pds/18kg) it's the light weight

Lime green- Ultra lite- it's new to the market, never used it

orange/yellow - machine mud, it's in a class of it's own, I find hand tapers like it better than machine guys. has the properties of lite weight IMO. But a few scoops in the red mud, takes away the porosity. (guys seem to like this stuff, But IMO, takes too long to dry, too soft , not enough glue, and you get problems with it flaking off

Purple - That dust free [email protected], too gummy IMO

So whats the USG colour code


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> So whats the USG colour code


Here, Beadex is a division of USG

Yellow = light taping
Red = light All purpose
Blue = light topping
Candy Cane = All purpose regular weight, and I don't know any of the other ones, because I just use Beadex light muds.


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

out here we only have light muds. 
CGC
-yellow is light taping
- blue is light all purpose
- green is topping
-red is classic finish

Certainteed is same as above but no red.


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## carpentaper (Feb 28, 2009)

i think the candycane one is the one i used.


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

carpentaper said:


> i think the candycane one is the one i used.


It has diagonal red and white stripes, and is hard as nails. Nice and creamy though. We use it when we want.....well, hard mud :laughing:


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

2buckcanuck said:


> Your just going to half to invest in a few dehumidifiers Cazna the clean, you know you want a bigger tool shed.:thumbup:
> 
> Weather using hotmud or All purpose, your basically F**ked if the rock it self is wet.
> 
> ...


Well now that you mention it, One builder i do work for and we had trouble with delayed shrinkage, I talked to him all like, Well in canada they do this, In canada they have to do that :yes: He must have listened couse he got one big mother F er 5grand dehuimd :thumbsup: Man that things a drying weapon, If you locked yourself in a room over night you would age 10 years.

So thanks agian for the tip, Its great. :thumbsup:


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

cazna said:


> He must have listened couse he got one big mother F er 5grand dehuimd :thumbsup: Man that things a drying weapon, If you locked yourself in a room over night you would age 10 years.


Someone told me a couple years ago that they ran into problems of tape letting go when they ran dehumidifiers. Anyone hear of anything like that?

I can't remember if he said it was because he'd figured they'd maybe used them too soon after taping, &/or if it was because of the ones they were using took too much moisture out while tapes were drying. I think he also said they'd used a fair amount of hot muds for taping, to get the things done faster, which made them popular with some builders.


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## JustMe (Apr 17, 2009)

Mudshark said:


> I see some of you are using all purpose mud, instead of taping mud and finishing mud, the way I was taught. I view all purpose as a comprimise mud for the amateur handyman but certainly not the professionals. Could some of you explain why you would not use the proper products for the application??:huh:


A couple reasons:

On some past jobsites, there's at times been tapers who didn't pay enough attention to what was in the pail they grabbed, or what they had in their pan, when they came across some tape or patch that needed putting on. No finishing mud on site takes care of that.

The walls can get banged up a bit by other trades, till the primer gets put on. AP handles that better.

I'm talking commercial sites here.

Btw: We do use taping mud for most all tape and patch installs. And we do at times use finishing mud, just not that often.


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## wnybassman (May 9, 2008)

Availability here. I never even heard of most these muds you speak of. Our local small town suppliers carry green top and blue top, and that's about it. Even if they had others, they'd be sitting on it so long it would be crusty by the time anyone bought it.


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## Bill from Indy (Apr 26, 2010)

I haven't seen a straight "taping mud" in at least 15yrs...we used to use usg with the greyish black lids....dont forget to wipe all your tape down before lunch because if you find out when you get back that you did, you'll scrape it to the white meat to get it off

USG (here anyways)
Green all purp
purple midweight
baby blue topping
dark blue lightweight "plus 3"
blue with grey bucket lightweight dust control

proform natl gypsum (gold bond)
black all purp
blue lite
red/maroon multiuse
green topping

LaFarge
green lightweight
gold all purpose

I personally use green(usg) or black(proform) for taping and texture(stomp) and midweight, preferably or lite be it blue or plus 3

with a little soap, i can make them all work though


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## SlimPickins (Aug 10, 2010)

JustMe said:


> Someone told me a couple years ago that they ran into problems of tape letting go when they ran dehumidifiers. Anyone hear of anything like that?
> 
> I can't remember if he said it was because he'd figured they'd maybe used them too soon after taping, &/or if it was because of the ones they were using took too much moisture out while tapes were drying. I think he also said they'd used a fair amount of hot muds for taping, to get the things done faster, which made them popular with some builders.


I worked for a company that used lots of De-hus in the winter, and we never had problems with tape adhesion. But I do remember hearing on here that hot mud will lose sticking power if allowed to dry before set. I thought that was a right useful piece of information. It makes sense, that would be a cause of flaking when skimming over it, the feathered edges can't help but dry when they're that thin.


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> I worked for a company that used lots of De-hus in the winter, and we never had problems with tape adhesion. But I do remember hearing on here that hot mud will lose sticking power if allowed to dry before set. I thought that was a right useful piece of information. It makes sense, that would be a cause of flaking when skimming over it, the feathered edges can't help but dry when they're that thin.


Like this slim, Here some info, I copyed and pasted it from our guide.


In winter there is increased risk of shrinkage during these colder months. If the air drying compound is not dry, it has not stopped shrinking.
Some air drying compounds are promoted as a total system, including the taping coat. These systems are common overseas in warm climates or houses that are heated during construction once closed in. Warm air allows the thick taping coat of the air drying compound to dry (and shrink) in a reasonable time.
In New Zealand however, for at least 6 months of the year, the temperature is too low to enable a commercially acceptable time frame for drying of a thick coat of air drying compound. Added to this, for cost reasons, most houses are not heated in winter during the finishing phases of construction.
It is unwise to use air drying compounds as a system, unless you are certain that each separate coat will dry, so that shrinkage is eliminated.
This cannot be achieved in winter without heating the building being stopped. Doing this would eliminate most of the subsequent issues seen by both the stopping and painting industry, provided the workmanship by both parties is up to scratch.
If the individual coats of a joint are not 100% dry prior to the next coat being placed, delayed shrinkage, caused by the moisture eventually drying out in warmer weather, will create hollow joints, shadow lines on joints, tram lines either side of the tape, etc.
A thin coat of air drying compound on top of a plaster based coat will dry quicker than a thick coat. And because it’s thin, it will shrink less in relation to the entire joint. This system generally works, however will also benefit if the house is heated.
In conclusion: think about the implications for total air drying systems before using them. They have their place in heated premises or in warm / hot climates. They should not be used as a total system in a building that is being stopped in winter without heating.
*Shrinkage & Drying*

Setting compounds usually shrink back to a degree to ensure the joint tape is pulled back into the joint as it sets. Once set, the joint will continue to shrink at a much reduced rate as the compound dries, and stop shrinking when dry. Painting a joint that has not dried properly can delay shrinkage by several weeks or even months resulting in delayed shrinkage.


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## saskataper (Mar 6, 2011)

2buckcanuck said:


> what type of mud you using, I prefer the proroc. but right now were using the CGC (synko) or ..... Cgc is a Canadian division of USG. Maybe one of the yanks can give their colour code.
> 
> The colours go like this
> 
> ...


Ok what?
is synko in the east different than the west?

here synko is:

yellow - taping
green - lite finish
light blue - light ap
blue - ap
red - classic finish


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

cazna said:


> Like this slim, Here some info, I copyed and pasted it from our guide.
> 
> 
> In winter there is increased risk of shrinkage during these colder months. If the air drying compound is not dry, it has not stopped shrinking.
> ...


Thank you!


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## moore (Dec 2, 2010)

Black top
Black top
Black top 
USG plus 3 for level 5 skim.


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## Mudshark (Feb 8, 2009)

saskataper said:


> Ok what?
> is synko in the east different than the west?
> 
> here synko is:
> ...


Thats the same for the far west coast saskataper - we also see purple for dust control mud - Is 2buck telling us there is no yellow taping mud in Ontarable?


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## cazna (Mar 28, 2010)

SlimPickins said:


> I worked for a company that used lots of De-hus in the winter, and we never had problems with tape adhesion. But I do remember hearing on here that hot mud will lose sticking power if allowed to dry before set. I thought that was a right useful piece of information. It makes sense, that would be a cause of flaking when skimming over it, the feathered edges can't help but dry when they're that thin.





moore said:


> Thank you!


Opps, I copyed and pasted the wrong part in answer reply to slims post, It was ment to be this on hotmuds drying to fast and what can happen.
It is from this link here http://www.gib.co.nz/limitations-and-recommendations/ Its all interesting stuff though.

I did some full air drying mud houses with taping mud then all purpose, Some were ok but man did one big one kick me in the butt, I wasnt aware of drying, I was sure it was dry, But it was colder so it wasnt, I did take some pics of shrunkin beads but now they are gone so i cant post them, Hell did they shrink back once the owners moved in and heated the house, It was quite amazing, I wish i still had the pics, You would all do this 

*Hot Weather Conditions*

Setting compounds require water to set hard. This chemical setting occurs after the specified time for a compound (i.e. a 90 minute set product, actually starts to set after 90 minutes). If the water content in the compound is lost or greatly reduced before the setting process starts, e.g. the compound has dried before it sets, then the chemical setting process can not occur and cure the compound to achieve its required strength and adhesion. The symptoms of this are the compound will be soft, have little or no mechanical strength and adhesion, and the tape may bubble, crack or even fall out. Setting compounds must not dry out before their specified set time. Learn More
*Cold and Damp Weather Conditions*

Water, wet compound, air and surface temperature above 10°C should be maintained until the compound is completely dry. Structures may require heating to achieve this temperature. Use of a 1 x 2KW fan heater per 50m2 of floor space in a house is usually sufficient. Do not raise temperature above 18degrees celsius as other issues may arise. During winter months or under cold damp conditions, drying rates can be improved using more but thinner coats of compound. Setting compounds dry quicker and are better suited in colder conditions as a first and second coat.


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